Brazil's poor rise up

[RandomGuy]

Brazil's middle to lower classes have seen their wages not keep pace with inflation in the last few years, making the country's recent economic growth a bit ill-distributed.

Their gini coefficient (measure of income inequality between rich and poor) is not that far off, currently, from that of the US.


More broadly, the very middle class that Brazil has created in the past decade—40m people have escaped from absolute poverty, but are still only one paycheck from falling back into it, and 2009 was the first year in which more than half the population could be considered middle class—is developing an entirely new relationship with the government. They see further improvements in their living standards as their right and will fight tooth and nail not to fall back into poverty. And rather than being grateful for the occasional crumb thrown from rich Brazilians’ tables, they are waking up to the fact that they pay taxes and deserve something in return. Perhaps their government’s triumphalism over those shiny new stadiums was the final straw.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/americasview/2013/06/protests-brazil

Brazil has some shitty public services, but this appears to be part of a global trend in unhappy youth. Occupy movement, green movement, arab spring, turkey...

Interesting events.

[TeyshaBlue]

A measured response:

http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-brazil-protests-20130618,0,1146469.story

[boutons_deux]

govt rolled back the bus fares.

[Wild Cobra]

The more and more nations borrow from the future, the less the future will have...

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The more and more nations borrow from the future, the less the future will have...
Excuse me while I go choke to death on the irony of a baby boomer saying that.

[boutons_deux]

The more and more nations borrow from the future, the less the future will have...

the 1% and financializaton of everything have sucked up way too much wealth, govts have not collected enough taxes to run their countries, USA is World Champion example of a failed economy.

[Trainwreck2100]

if this is the shit that goes down during the confed cup, what's going to happen during the actual world cup?

[Th'Pusher]

The more and more nations borrow from the future, the less the future will have...
Poetic man. that really spoke to me. Do you cop this banal bullshit from rightwing radio?

[boutons_deux]

Brazilians showing disenfranchised, lard-assed, pot-bellied, TV-watching Americans what real "voting" is.

When Americans take to the street, they get trashed as dirty hippies and losers, esp by right wingers here, and trashed and shut down by the cops and corps and media.

[BobaFett1]

Excuse me while I go choke to death on the irony of a baby boomer saying that.

WC just spoke the truth. Cannot handle it can you?

[BobaFett1]

Brazilians showing disenfranchised, lard-assed, pot-bellied, TV-watching Americans what real "voting" is.

When Americans take to the street, they get trashed as dirty hippies and losers, esp by right wingers here, and trashed and shut down by the cops and corps and media.


Are you still mad Air America laid you off?>

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

WC just spoke the truth. Cannot handle it can you?
If you didn't have the IQ of a beagle you would be able to see I didn't disagree with the context of what he said.

[BobaFett1]

If you didn't have the IQ of a beagle you would be able to see I didn't disagree with the context of what he said.

No I was saying it in sarcasm. You have the Iq of a turd and gay.:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

If you didn't have the IQ of a beagle you would be able to see I didn't disagree with the context of what he said.

Hey! EZ on the beagles, junior.:flipoff

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

You have the Iq of a turd and gay.:lol
That sentence structure is a shining example of lobe damage I'm sure you experienced early in life.

[BobaFett1]

That sentence structure is a shining example of lobe damage I'm sure you experienced early in life.

This is the internet you homo like Hibbert.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

WC just spoke the truth. Cannot handle it can you?

If he spoke truth then why doesn't he go back and pay back his share of the billions he and his generation have robbed from the rest of us?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

trillions tbh

[BobaFett1]

If he spoke truth then why doesn't he go back and pay back his share of the billions he and his generation have robbed from the rest of us?

really

[johnsmith]

Bobafett has to be ducks right?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The way he spams everything re:re:re that he gets reminds me of yoni.

[TDMVPDPOY]

they only protesting cause WC AND OLYMPICS is just around t he corner for them

if they did this 12 months ago then it wouldve had some legitimacy

[Wild Cobra]

Excuse me while I go choke to death on the irony of a baby boomer saying that.
This "baby boomer" has never approved of what generation X and Y have been doing.

You have to remember, boomers before me were the last to ever pay down the national debt.

[Rogue]

No surprise, it's just a blessing of hosting the World Cup or similar events. Similar shit happened to Greece in 04, South Africa in 10 and the UK in 12. Germany and us were fine because we rich enough :drool:

[BobaFett1]

No surprise, it's just a blessing of hosting the World Cup or similar events. Similar shit happened to Greece in 04, South Africa in 10 and the UK in 12. Germany and us were fine because we rich enough :drool:

Scarlett what does she think?

[Rogue]

Scarlett will be rooting for Sweden on the World Cup imho. Her dad came from Demmark but the name "Johansson" is actually a Swedish name, so it's obvious that she has Swedish ancestry rather than Danish, no big difference though.

My goddess doesn't give a shit about Brazil or how broke that country is

[RandomGuy]

The way he spams everything re:re:re that he gets reminds me of yoni.

There is a good thing to it.

I normally rely on websites with some journalistic standards, and sometimes forget that there are people out there who don't really have any standards or requirements for accuracy, or even intellectual honesty.

It is a bit like looking under a rock to see what creepy crawly things are under there, and to be mindful of the dangers of staying in a bubble.

[johnsmith]

There is a good thing to it.

I normally rely on websites with some journalistic standards, and sometimes forget that there are people out there who don't really have any standards or requirements for accuracy, or even intellectual honesty.

It is a bit like looking under a rock to see what creepy crawly things are under there, and to be mindful of the dangers of staying in a bubble.

Oh stop it RG. You and I have argued a few times over the years and it always boils down to the fact that I argue with you just based on your arrogance with statements like that one. As though you are the enlightened one that always acknowledges others opinions and no one else could possibly research using google the way you do.

You're still a good shit though....and your posts are always well thought out, just stop pretending you're the only one with an original thought.

[johnsmith]

The way he spams everything re:re:re that he gets reminds me of yoni.

I forgot about yoni. I went with ducks though due to the lack of structure.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This "baby boomer" has never approved of what generation X and Y have been doing.

You have to remember, boomers before me were the last to ever pay down the national debt.

The Clinton administration had a budget surplus. Gen X represent. Then boomers got their free prescriptions and we all got Bush shitting all over fiscal policy.

The first baby boomer to reach their majority was ~1965. Sure they paid down the national debt but that was before they controlled the electorate and the fiscal policies of Truman and Ike were still in place. That would be the WW2 generations work. The early boomers bitched about their parents policies.

Fast forward to 1985, when the last of the baby boomers reached their majority. Reagan is president, the national debt had been a few years into the toilet and the boomers are firmly entrenched as the dominating force in the electorate.

[boutons_deux]

you dumbfucks always miss the big picture. it ain't old vs young, left vs right, white vs non-white. It's 1% vs 99%, Class Warfare over wealth.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

you dumbfucks always miss the big picture. it ain't old vs young, left vs right, white vs non-white. It's 1% vs 99%, Class Warfare over wealth.

fuck off boomer

[TeyshaBlue]

fuck off boomer

:lol

You gonna start a VBC thread?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol

You gonna start a VBC thread?

VBC?

[TeyshaBlue]

Vast Boomer Conspiracy! ™ ala' croutons.

[boutons_deux]

if boomers "stole" so many $Ts, then why are so many boomers in poverty, unemployed, underemployed, lost their homes to the 1%?

you fuckers ain't got no facts.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

if boomers "stole" so many $Ts, then why are so many boomers in poverty, unemployed, underemployed, lost their homes to the 1%?

you fuckers ain't got no facts.

:lol that's rich coming from you

What age demographic do you think the vast majority of the very wealthy are, boomer?

[RandomGuy]

Oh stop it RG. You and I have argued a few times over the years and it always boils down to the fact that I argue with you just based on your arrogance with statements like that one. As though you are the enlightened one that always acknowledges others opinions and no one else could possibly research using google the way you do.

You're still a good shit though....and your posts are always well thought out, just stop pretending you're the only one with an original thought.

um, thanks?

I guess I can be a bit arrogant. Guilty as charged, although I try not to be, generally.

I can also be:
Partisan
insulting
angry

For that... I blame Republicans. They have made me the dick I am today.





HA!

Seriously though, I try not to be any of those things. You would be amazed at the amount of things I backspace over and go back and edit out. But I am only human.

[TeyshaBlue]

...But I am only human.

and a dick.

































:lol:lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Vast Boomer Conspiracy! ™ ala' croutons.

Nah. It's all independent self interest. I prefer boutox myself.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Is boutons really a trust fund babbeh?


If so then lol

[TeyshaBlue]

:lol that's rich coming from you

What age demographic do you think the vast majority of the very wealthy are, boomer?

lol boutons.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y64/teyshablue/EOxJs_zps13b3c5e4.gif (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/teyshablue/media/EOxJs_zps13b3c5e4.gif.html)

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The one thing I don't get about the boomer hate (that I mostly agree with) is why generation X gets a pass. They're the ones who lionize Ronald Reagan the most and take living beyond their means to a whole new level with HELOCs and credit card debt. The fact we have an entire generation of people in this country who hate government and believe in Reaganomics is just as big a problem as anything the baby boomers have done.

[TeyshaBlue]

The one thing I don't get about the boomer hate (that I mostly agree with) is why generation X gets a pass. They're the ones who lionize Ronald Reagan the most and take living beyond their means to a whole new level with HELOCs and credit card debt. The fact we have an entire generation of people in this country who hate government and believe in Reaganomics is just as big a problem as anything the baby boomers have done.

Boomers, and I'm one of 'em, pretty much codified self-interest into law. I don't like it. I don't agree with it. I also don't deny it.
I'll put this on the list of things I don't like, don't agree with, and don't deny happens.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Boomers, and I'm one of 'em, pretty much codified self-interest into law. I don't like it. I don't agree with it. I also don't deny it.
I'll put this on the list of things I don't like, don't agree with, and don't deny happens.
I don't deny that, but I don't think generation X is any better. They also choose politicians based off instant gratification and are 10x worse than baby boomers in terms of saving and planning for the long term. The douche bags in their 30s loved the idea of deregulating credit cards and banks because it enabled them to buy that vacation home and big screen TV they wanted. It ended up fucking them over since some of them lost both houses, but financial industry deregulation happened largely because of how much generation Xers seek instant gratification.

It remains to be seen if generation Y will be any different, I'm hoping so after the shitty hand the boomers and generation X dealt us.

[boutons_deux]

St Ronnie and his team, how many were boomers?, started the shitball rolling, from tax-and-spend converted (cutting taxes) borrow-and-spend, busting the unions to suppress salaries, household income essentially flat for 35 years, deregulating finance (yielding eg S&L crimes and disaster), cutting capital gains so executive compensation switched from salary to stock, which motivated the mgmt to push the stock price up at any cost, like pilfering/underfunding pension funds and firing 100Ks of employees.

[johnsmith]

um, thanks?

I guess I can be a bit arrogant. Guilty as charged, although I try not to be, generally.

I can also be:
Partisan
insulting
angry

For that... I blame Republicans. They have made me the dick I am today.





HA!

Seriously though, I try not to be any of those things. You would be amazed at the amount of things I backspace over and go back and edit out. But I am only human.

It was a compliment...just sort of a backhanded one.

[angrydude]

St Ronnie and his team, how many were boomers?, started the shitball rolling, from tax-and-spend converted (cutting taxes) borrow-and-spend, busting the unions to suppress salaries, household income essentially flat for 35 years, deregulating finance (yielding eg S&L crimes and disaster), cutting capital gains so executive compensation switched from salary to stock, which motivated the mgmt to push the stock price up at any cost, like pilfering/underfunding pension funds and firing 100Ks of employees.

Nixon got the ball rolling when he ended Bretton Woods.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The one thing I don't get about the boomer hate (that I mostly agree with) is why generation X gets a pass. They're the ones who lionize Ronald Reagan the most and take living beyond their means to a whole new level with HELOCs and credit card debt. The fact we have an entire generation of people in this country who hate government and believe in Reaganomics is just as big a problem as anything the baby boomers have done.

The oldest Xer would have been ~15 in 1979, Reagan's first election. Not sure where you are getting that notion from. The president where we had a majority of the total Xer's would have been in 1992 or 1996.

Then there is obviously Bush but it's pretty obvious he knew where his bread was buttered from the legislation he pushed. Gen X were the one's that got sent off to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Funny how the Boomer's fought to have the war they were being sent off to ended and then sent their children off to fight another as soon as they were too old to go.

The credit card was first used in its current format in the 1960's and gained popularity over the ensuing decades.

As for debt you might as well throw Y in there too. They are accruing debt at record pace. This type of disparity is a product of an environment where you have a centralized concentration of wealth within a certain group.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/12/20/the-big-generation-gap-at-the-polls-is-echoed-in-attitudes-on-budget-tradeoffs/

That is a summation of pew polls on the generational take on government. Gen Y hates government more. That should be obvious from the groundswell of support around college campuses for Ron Paul. Looking at the above polls it should be obvious that the younger you are the less inclined you are to be paying for the Boomer's shit.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

St Ronnie and his team, how many were boomers?, started the shitball rolling, from tax-and-spend converted (cutting taxes) borrow-and-spend, busting the unions to suppress salaries, household income essentially flat for 35 years, deregulating finance (yielding eg S&L crimes and disaster), cutting capital gains so executive compensation switched from salary to stock, which motivated the mgmt to push the stock price up at any cost, like pilfering/underfunding pension funds and firing 100Ks of employees.

I know you have a hard on for Reagan but there is all manner of government. Politicians typically pander to the people that vote for them and/or those that give them money.

Reagan was one guy. His administration was perhaps 1000. The Boomers are the 75m that got him elected. Mondale did himself in when he told them we needed to pay for our shit by way of taxation. That is a big boomer no-no. Something for nothing otoh.....

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The oldest Xer would have been ~15 in 1979, Reagan's first election. Not sure where you are getting that notion from. The president where we had a majority of the total Xer's would have been in 1992 or 1996.
I'm not saying they put Reagan in office. They grew up with Reagan in office and for whatever reason swallowed up everything he said. I'm not sure why that's the case, but they're the generation that loves Reagan the most. Certainly a lot more than Boomers do.


Then there is obviously Bush but it's pretty obvious he knew where his bread was buttered from the legislation he pushed. Gen X were the one's that got sent off to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Funny how the Boomer's fought to have the war they were being sent off to ended and then sent their children off to fight another as soon as they were too old to go.
Polls have always shown gen Xers to vote overwhelmingly conservative while baby boomers are pretty split. Gen Xers are what made Bush a two term president.


The credit card was first used in its current format in the 1960's and gained popularity over the ensuing decades.
Was it used at the same level back then that it's used now? (honest question)


As for debt you might as well throw Y in there too. They are accruing debt at record pace. This type of disparity is a product of an environment where you have a centralized concentration of wealth within a certain group.
Gen Y is accruing debt so they can have an education and have a snowball's chance in hell of making a decent living. They aren't taking out a line of credit to go on vacations and spend on other luxuries (and I know you agree that contrary to what every rascal scooter driving tea bagger claims, college is a necessity these days)



http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/12/20/the-big-generation-gap-at-the-polls-is-echoed-in-attitudes-on-budget-tradeoffs/

That is a summation of pew polls on the generational take on government. Gen Y hates government more. That should be obvious from the groundswell of support around college campuses for Ron Paul. Looking at the above polls it should be obvious that the younger you are the less inclined you are to be paying for the Boomer's shit.
Gen Yers also favor socialism over communism more than any other generation in America ever has, and it's not even close. Gen Yers supporting Ron Paul is evidence they hate the current corrupt and inefficient US government, not the concept of government in general.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You have these polls to back up these assertions?

There is a pew summary that draws different conclusions.

http://www.people-press.org/files/2011/11/11-3-11-5.png

[FuzzyLumpkins]

http://www.people-press.org/files/2011/11/11-3-11-2.png

http://www.people-press.org/2011/11/03/the-generation-gap-and-the-2012-election-3/

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I know you have a hard on for Reagan but there is all manner of government. Politicians typically pander to the people that vote for them and/or those that give them money.

Reagan was one guy. His administration was perhaps 1000. The Boomers are the 75m that got him elected. Mondale did himself in when he told them we needed to pay for our shit by way of taxation. That is a big boomer no-no. Something for nothing otoh.....
The boomers are not what got Reagan elected. Baby boomers as a whole voted slightly in Jimmy Carter's favor in the 1980 election iirc. The younger baby boomers closer in age to the gen Xers are the ones who voted more in favor of Reagan.

It's also stupid to say Reagan was "just one guy" since he's become a movement and an entire political party. Every president since Reagan has emulated his economic policies and spoken nothing but great things about him. The 30 year movement that turned America into a mountain of shit was created and made possible by Reagan and a bunch of dumbshit baby boomers + gen Xers who have a completely diluted view of how extreme Reagan's policies were. I'm too lazy to list more examples, but every time I talk economics with people in the late 30s - 40s age range, they claim the laffer curve works and not believing in it is what ruined America which I don't need to explain to you why it's ridiculous.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Again you have anything to back these assertions up?

Your other ones about disestablishment and non-partisanship have been wrong so far.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I'll try to find what I read a few weeks ago tbh.

FTR, I agree with you for the most part about baby boomers. They're lazy people who had it better than any previous generation did and any future generation ever will. My main concern is why gen Xers get a pass.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

They shouldn't. Anecdotally, I find the Xers to be aloof and jaded myself.

The reason that got me started on boomer animosity has been a barrage of boomer centric articles maligning millenials and Xers. Some 60 year old **** was saying that she didn't consider young men to be men at all. That article was the tipping point for me.

I hate people that malign and/or take advantage of children.

and :lol Kori for censoring the word that rhymes with punt and starts with the letter 'c.'

[RandomGuy]

they hate the current corrupt and inefficient US government, not the concept of government in general.

That seems to be the way just about every young person on the planet feels about their government these days.

Brazil to France, to Egypt, to Iran to the US.

Seems there is a strong streak of that. I don't think we have seen this much unrest... in a long time.

It is time for the older generation to step aside, IMO, ala Logan's run. :madrun

[TeyshaBlue]

That seems to be the way just about every young person on the planet feels about their government these days.

Brazil to France, to Egypt, to Iran to the US.

Seems there is a strong streak of that. I don't think we have seen this much unrest... in a long time.

It is time for the older generation to step aside, IMO, ala Logan's run. :madrun

1960's says hi. Oh, and the counter-culture was pretty much a Boomer phenomenon.

[TeyshaBlue]

Come on, junior. Just try to carousel my ass.:flipoff


:p:

[RandomGuy]

I'll try to find what I read a few weeks ago tbh.

FTR, I agree with you for the most part about baby boomers. They're lazy people who had it better than any previous generation did and any future generation ever will. My main concern is why gen Xers get a pass.

Not sure we do get a pass.

Either way, right now my generation is going to step into the senior leadership positions that the boomers are vacating through simple attrition.

I would hope that we have a new and fresh enough sense of things to effect the kinds of change that our elders did not see fit to put into play, and I am sure as hell hte laffer curve is... laughaBLE.

[RandomGuy]

Th Anecdotally, I find the Xers to be aloof and jaded myself.

Grunge


'nuff said.


We had such hope when the Wall fell, it was a palpable sense that things were getting better, a break in the clouds so to speak. Then we slammed into the reality that the same old shits who had been running things were still in power. Not for much longer.

We'll see if we can do better. (shrugs) C'est la vie.

[boutons_deux]

Not sure we do get a pass.

Either way, right now my generation is going to step into the senior leadership positions that the boomers are vacating through simple attrition.

I would hope that we have a new and fresh enough sense of things to effect the kinds of change that our elders did not see fit to put into play, and I am sure as hell hte laffer curve is... laughaBLE.

your generation is going to get elected to Congress and reverse all the Repug damage,

get elected/nominated as judges to replace the VRWC-packed courts,

get enough elected to regulate the financial industry?

GMAFB

America is fucked and your generation won't, can't unfuck it.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

That seems to be the way just about every young person on the planet feels about their government these days.

Brazil to France, to Egypt, to Iran to the US.

Seems there is a strong streak of that. I don't think we have seen this much unrest... in a long time.

It is time for the older generation to step aside, IMO, ala Logan's run. :madrun

Maybe that's because this current group of young people has had its future pissed on by governments around the world mortgaging it for baby boomers and gen Xers.

[boutons_deux]

Not sure we do get a pass.

Either way, right now my generation is going to step into the senior leadership positions that the boomers are vacating through simple attrition.

I would hope that we have a new and fresh enough sense of things to effect the kinds of change that our elders did not see fit to put into play, and I am sure as hell hte laffer curve is... laughaBLE.

your generation is going to get elected to Congress and

reverse all the Repug damage,

reverse citizens united,

get elected/nominated as judges to replace the VRWC-packed courts,

get enough elected to regulate the financial industry?

GMAFB

America is fucked and your generation won't, can't unfuck it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Maybe that's because this current group of young people has had its future pissed on by governments around the world mortgaging it for baby boomers and gen Xers.

What legislation do you attribute to the Xers?

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

What legislation do you attribute to the Xers?

The repeal of Glass-Steagall.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That's fair I guess. That truly was a bipartisan fuckfest. That and the deal for america. bleh.

I was born right on the turn between X and Y although I am an X if you want to be precise. That means Y gets Obama though. That is unequivovacle as the youth vote was widely recognized as the difference maker in 2008.

We need to do better.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

That's fair I guess. That truly was a bipartisan fuckfest. That and the deal for america. bleh.

I was born right on the turn between X and Y although I am an X if you want to be precise. That means Y gets Obama though. That is unequivovacle as the youth vote was widely recognized as the difference maker in 2008.

We need to do better.

The Xs that are your age aren't the ones I'm bitching about. The older Xers in their 40s are the ones who love Reagan and loved the idea of being able to use their house as a credit card.

[RandomGuy]

The Xs that are your age aren't the ones I'm bitching about. The older Xers in their 40s are the ones who love Reagan and loved the idea of being able to use their house as a credit card.

Reagan.. eyuch.

Most Xers were teenagers during the reagan years and didn't pay much attention, which is why they think Reagan was awesome. I was in the former category, but not the latter.

I have always paid attention, even when readign weekly news magazines and daily newspapers with the evening news were the only way to stay informed.

We didn't have any of this fancy news on your phone crap, oh no, we had to do it the hard way. Driving in our cars to the library to actually read card catalogs and pick up actual pieces of paper to read.

You little ingrates wouldn't have lasted one minute.... oh shit, I got old.... when the fuck did that happen?

[RandomGuy]

The repeal of Glass-Steagall.

Glass-Steagal was repealed in the mid-1990's if memory serves. Gen Xers were not in congress at that time.

Sorry. Boomer shit.

We do get to take credit for fuck ups in the 2000's or so.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The Xs that are your age aren't the ones I'm bitching about. The older Xers in their 40s are the ones who love Reagan and loved the idea of being able to use their house as a credit card.

The home refinancing ban was repealed in the 80's?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Glass-Steagal was repealed in the mid-1990's if memory serves. Gen Xers were not in congress at that time.

Sorry. Boomer shit.

We do get to take credit for fuck ups in the 2000's or so.

It's more about the electorate to me. The government 'elite' types are a group unto their own. It seems that as time goes by the electorate matters less and less though.

[Ignignokt]

Glass Steagall was not the catalyst. That is the most ignorant statement coming from progressive agitprop.


Out of washington mutual, bear sterhns, aig, and countless other firms who fell during the crisis, only citigroup was a glass steagall product of merging investment banking with commercial banking.

And citigroup was already a shitty company with a bad track record.


To say that deregulation and glass steagall caused the bubble is just intellectual laziness.

[Ignignokt]

Deregulation is good.

It's manipulation of interst rates and reducing investing risk by govt subsidies that leads to bubbles.

You're always going to have market mistakes, you make them an issue when you have regulations that guarantee the consumer that they will rescue them for making bad decisions, hence companies will make riskier moves because there will be a bailout.

The whole reason we have glass steagall in the 30's is because we have govt backing bank defaults through the FDIC.

[Ignignokt]

In other words, regulation beget more regulations because they introduce more moral hazards.

[johnsmith]

I'm 33. Does that make me an X or a Y?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Glass Steagall was not the catalyst. That is the most ignorant statement coming from progressive agitprop.


Out of washington mutual, bear sterhns, aig, and countless other firms who fell during the crisis, only citigroup was a glass steagall product of merging investment banking with commercial banking.

And citigroup was already a shitty company with a bad track record.


To say that deregulation and glass steagall caused the bubble is just intellectual laziness.

What's ignorant is the mindless meme of 'deregulation is good' as if that is a universal truth.

The mortgage backed securities were taking housing loans and mixing them with stock speculation. If you want to simplify that into only Citigroup doing it because they did it all inhouse is disingenuous at best. It wasn't legal to package something like that and sell it to a vertical firm either. What do shell company mean?


Deregulation is good.

It's manipulation of interst rates and reducing investing risk by govt subsidies that leads to bubbles.

You're always going to have market mistakes, you make them an issue when you have regulations that guarantee the consumer that they will rescue them for making bad decisions, hence companies will make riskier moves because there will be a bailout.

The whole reason we have glass steagall in the 30's is because we have govt backing bank defaults through the FDIC.[/QUOTE]

Government subsidies are not inherently bad either unless you think infrastructure is a waste of time. Private firms have never done that even with the rise of toll roads. Also these issues do not exist in a vacuum. I think it's obvious that the feds forcing those loans knowing they were untenable was part of the problem. That would have been bad enough had it just been left to that.

Instead we added injury to insult because we repeated the same mistake as with the 1929 crash. We allowed those shitty decisions to be tied into the entire financial system. Instead of just housing crashing, so did all of the various investments (re: Boomer IRA's) to which they were tied. Last time it was stocks that crashed that destroyed the housing and savings markets. This time it was the housing markets that rendered the rest of it insolvent or entirely gone.


The whole reason we have glass steagall in the 30's is because we have govt backing bank defaults through the FDIC.

Whatever the hell this means. You want to talk about intellectual laziness. Your ideological memes are the embodiment of that.


In other words, regulation beget more regulations because they introduce more moral hazards.

:lol moral hazard

Horseshit. More ideological memes. Ideological memes beget more ideological memes because it has no real tenants to stand on. The state of nature is not a solution. Man is not an inherent benevolent entity.

[Ignignokt]

glass steagall only prevents a single firm from doing both commercial banking and investment banking. That's it, it doesn't stop speculation of mortgage backed securities. Europe doesn't have any type of Glass Steagal, yet they also had similar problems. Well?

[Ignignokt]

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/05/21/reinstating-an-old-rule-is-not-a-cure-for-crisis/?ref=todayspaper&_r=0

[Ignignokt]

btw, moral hazard is not an ideological meme you fucktard. It's used in insurance and law.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

glass steagall only prevents a single firm from doing both commercial banking and investment banking. That's it, it doesn't stop speculation of mortgage backed securities. Europe doesn't have any type of Glass Steagal, yet they also had similar problems. Well?

You are oversimplifying the banking regulation that has been systematically dismantled over the last 30 or so years. It's much more than that one act that was repealed. That wsa just the symbolic nail in the coffin for the intellectually lazy as you like t put it. If you want to believe that such vertical trading was possible even 20 years ago then so be it.

The EU is 27 member states. Acting like they have uniform banking regulations is fun I guess. Their banking system fucked up when ours did. Funny how they correlated huh? Europeans can buy US investments and are more apt to when the private credit agencies that you champion misrepresent them.

Laissez fair ws the US policy from inception to around 1929. It was a clusterfuck. Now I am sure that you have another ideological meme about how it wasn't lassez faire enough but that is incredibly naive as to how governments anywhere work. You aren't an anarchist now are you?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

btw, moral hazard is not an ideological meme you fucktard. It's used in insurance and law.

And ideological nonsense is now no longer written into law? More intellectual laziness it seems.

[Ignignokt]

You are oversimplifying the banking regulation that has been systematically dismantled over the last 30 or so years. It's much more than that one act that was repealed. That wsa just the symbolic nail in the coffin for the intellectually lazy as you like t put it. If you want to believe that such vertical trading was possible even 20 years ago then so be it.

The EU is 27 member states. Acting like they have uniform banking regulations is fun I guess. Their banking system fucked up when ours did. Funny how they correlated huh? Europeans can buy US investments and are more apt to when the private credit agencies that you champion misrepresent them.

Laissez fair ws the US policy from inception to around 1929. It was a clusterfuck. Now I am sure that you have another ideological meme about how it wasn't lassez faire enough but that is incredibly naive as to how governments anywhere work. You aren't an anarchist now are you?

Vertical trading itself is not a detriment towards a healthy market. The reason why the housing market crashed had more to do with writing shitty loans like ARM loans, which happen irregardless of vertical trading or not.

But here's the conundrum you have. govt wants to regulate the financing industry while at the same time manipulate it to achieve it's own end like increasing homeownership. So what they did was encourage risky behaviour by incentivizing more loans being written and also lowered the interest rate so that borrowing could be cheaper. Thus you have a govt that wants to both stifle the market, yet stimulate it at the same time. In the end we had increased homeowners take risky loan packages that wouldn't pass muster in a free market. Banks wouldn't have incentive to write shit loans that can't be paid back if they wont be insured by the FDIC. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp.

[Ignignokt]

Moral hazard is a term that dates back to the 19th century insurance industry of Great britian. it's also a term used in general economics. Too imply that it has anCap implications is groundless.

[Ignignokt]

Also, spending for financial regulations by the US govt has risen from 700 mil to 2 billion dollars in from the period of 1979-2001, and that is adjusted for inflation. So no, we don't have a dereg crisis.

[boutons_deux]

we don't have a dereg crisis.

:lol you right-winger come up with the wildest fantasies, the silliest propaganda and lies, married to your excellent grasp on reality

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Vertical trading itself is not a detriment towards a healthy market. The reason why the housing market crashed had more to do with writing shitty loans like ARM loans, which happen irregardless of vertical trading or not.

But here's the conundrum you have. govt wants to regulate the financing industry while at the same time manipulate it to achieve it's own end like increasing homeownership. So what they did was encourage risky behaviour by incentivizing more loans being written and also lowered the interest rate so that borrowing could be cheaper. Thus you have a govt that wants to both stifle the market, yet stimulate it at the same time. In the end we had increased homeowners take risky loan packages that wouldn't pass muster in a free market. Banks wouldn't have incentive to write shit loans that can't be paid back if they wont be insured by the FDIC. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp.

No one disagrees that the changing of homo buyer requirements was a bad idea. There really is no need of personifying the US government by telling us what 'it' wants.

I meant vertical trading of stock speculations with say home loans. And those vertical trades fucked the country. That was the whole point, ignorant fucktard. WaMu sells a whole shitload of these shitty home loans to and sell them to Goldman Sachs in exchange for a butload of bonds or stocks or what the fuckever. Goldman in turn takes the 'value of the trade and leverages (re:buys more shit using the equity) those assets in say the credit industry.

In ig's world such an action would not be a detriment. However in the real world, we saw what happened. The evisceration of the housing assetts destroyed the backing on the stocks and credits. A place like GOldman wa left with nada but the shit burger and the other two had their assets severaly devalued. This happened across the whole industry. That was they were talking about there was no solvency because there was nothing backing anything anymore. They needed cash to repace that value of all those boomer IRAs wouldve ended up in the crapper.

The only government invtervention was the directive to Fan and Fred to lower interest rates and on homes. The industry took that and built a bomb that blew up everything.

This notion that deregulating the shole mess is quite frankly,stupid.

Next time go to a source other than your op ed.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Also, spending for financial regulations by the US govt has risen from 700 mil to 2 billion dollars in from the period of 1979-2001, and that is adjusted for inflation. So no, we don't have a dereg crisis.

I need a good laugh, post the link to this. Do you know what the entire federa; budget is? How about you throw in foreign aid next.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Moral hazard is a term that dates back to the 19th century insurance industry of Great britian. it's also a term used in general economics. Too imply that it has anCap implications is groundless.

I worked in the industry for years. I know all kinds of stupid shit written in legislation and declarations. We are forced to learn them and relearn them every year.

You in way so much as respond to my response to the last time you said th same idea. To add in the 1800's to try and show it as being less of ideological bullshit is pure comedy. Shall we explore the word 'moral?' Seems my first response was not clear enough.

[symple19]

I don't deny that, but I don't think generation X is any better. They also choose politicians based off instant gratification and are 10x worse than baby boomers in terms of saving and plannting for the long term. The douche bags in their 30s loved the idea of deregulating credit cards and banks because it enabled them to buy that vacation home and big screen TV they wanted. It ended up fucking them over since some of them lost both houses, but financial industry deregulation happened largely because of how much generation Xers seek instant gratification.

It remains to be seen if generation Y will be any different, I'm hoping so after the shitty hand the boomers and generation X dealt us.

Okay, DOK. But what about your narcissistic, holier than thou generation? I would classify Gen X as apathetic, at best, but your Gen is re-writing the book on me first...Moreso than the boomers ever even dreamed. While social media is a net positive, Gen Y has turned it into a religion. If you think shit is bad now, in terms of a progression from boomer through X, then just wait until your Gen takes over. I'm not defending my generation, far from it, but if you think the western way of life isn't regressing then you're on crack. While you may be an exception, the rest of your gen is several steps below it's predecessor's.

For insight, take a good look at why the Roman empire fell... The US is following that same, tried and true, blueprint.. http://www.salon.com/2012/12/26/8_striking_parallels_between_the_u_s_and_the_roman _empire (http://www.salon.com/2012/12/26/8_striking_parallels_between_the_u_s_and_the_roman _empire/)55

What it amounts to, basically, is an erosion of each generation from one to the next.

While you can point at the boomers as the impetus, and X as a conveyor, Y is further (drastically) eroding what many point to (the 50's) as the high water mark of American civilization (whether consumerism and individual/familial monetary success is an indicator or not, is debatable, of course)

[symple19]

If I rehashed something that's already been addressed, sorry. I only read up to the DOK post

[symple19]

Frankly, one of the major problems is generational myopia. Our civilization is increasingly devoid of both historical perspective, as well as an understanding of who we are, sociologically, today

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Narcissistic and holier than thou? Quite honestly fuck you. When you get home and find that your house has been burnt to the groung is it narcissism to hold those that burnt it down in contempt. Boomers have systemically legislated a free ride the entire time they have dominated the electorate. Reagan and Bush jr tax cuts, booting Bush sr out because he tried to be fiscally reponsible. Laughed at Mondale because he wanted to balance the budget. Start tea party shenanigans at the notion that anyone other then them and their medicare get health coverage. Free prescription drugs.

Quite frankly the boomer legacy is the worst since the 1885 or 1905 generation. They lived it up and fucked people over from 1929 to 1939. Gen Y has yet to write their legacy so making claims as to what they will become just comes across as self serving fiction. they are just now entering the power structure and being cockblocked --go figure-- by the Boomer's. Let's see what they do

And calling Y a religion is putting the cart before the horse to say the least. There is no Y credo or doctrine. It's just an observation of thei behavior.

Form what I have found, Y seems more inspired, more willing to share, less willing to fuck the other guy over to get what they want, and less self centered than their forebears. Boomers are just the opposite. Boomer's in particular have a penchant for the 'I got mine so fuck everyone else' mentality. Nevermind how they got 'theirs.'

Went from stopping the Vietnam War, bringing in the primary political system, and civil rights and then left a legacy of taking a big old shit on the future.

We need a wealth tax in the worst way. Hoarding your spoils at little to no cost to yourself and retaining it on the backs of your children is disgusting. This riding off into the sunset with only paying a small fraction of the bill is unacceptable

And I am more than well aware of the cultural and historical evolution of the US going back to it's inception. Quit painting that broad brush especially in light of your lack of insight of your own.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Okay, DOK. But what about your narcissistic, holier than thou generation? I would classify Gen X as apathetic, at best, but your Gen is re-writing the book on me first...Moreso than the boomers ever even dreamed. While social media is a net positive, Gen Y has turned it into a religion. If you think shit is bad now, in terms of a progression from boomer through X, then just wait until your Gen takes over. I'm not defending my generation, far from it, but if you think the western way of life isn't regressing then you're on crack. While you may be an exception, the rest of your gen is several steps below it's predecessor's.
My generation has nothing left to destroy. We inherited the worst economy since the great depression from the boomers and Gen X, and now they call us lazy and narcissistic because we don't feel like paying for their medicare and social security that they bankrupted with shitty politicians they elected. Even if we did, there aren't enough jobs to go around for us to fund it. What exactly should Gen Y be doing differently?

The Western way of life has been declining for 30 years, to blame gen Y for it is extremely retarded since we had no control over anything until the 2008 election when America was already in the shitter.


While you can point at the boomers as the impetus, and X as a conveyor, Y is further (drastically) eroding what many point to (the 50's) as the high water mark of American civilization (whether consumerism and individual/familial monetary success is an indicator or not, is debatable, of course)
What exactly is gen Y doing to erode America (and don't mention anything prior to 2008 since gen Yers had no influence prior to that year). The 1950s was the high point of America and it was long gone by the time gen Yers were even born, let alone by the time gen Yers had the power to do anything. Blaming people in their 20s for a 30+ year long decline in America makes no logical sense from a simple math perspective, but then again boomers and gen Xers were the ones who put George Bush in office so he could destroy math education.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Narcissistic and holier than thou? Quite honestly fuck you. When you get home and find that your house has been burnt to the groung is it narcissism to hold those that burnt it down in contempt. Boomers have systemically legislated a free ride the entire time they have dominated the electorate. Reagan and Bush jr tax cuts, booting Bush sr out because he tried to be fiscally reponsible. Laughed at Mondale because he wanted to balance the budget. Start tea party shenanigans at the notion that anyone other then them and their medicare get health coverage. Free prescription drugs.

Quite frankly the boomer legacy is the worst since the 1885 or 1905 generation. They lived it up and fucked people over from 1929 to 1939. Gen Y has yet to write their legacy so making claims as to what they will become just comes across as self serving fiction. they are just now entering the power structure and being cockblocked --go figure-- by the Boomer's. Let's see what they do

And calling Y a religion is putting the cart before the horse to say the least. There is no Y credo or doctrine. It's just an observation of thei behavior.

Form what I have found, Y seems more inspired, more willing to share, less willing to fuck the other guy over to get what they want, and less self centered than their forebears. Boomers are just the opposite. Boomer's in particular have a penchant for the 'I got mine so fuck everyone else' mentality. Nevermind how they got 'theirs.'

Went from stopping the Vietnam War, bringing in the primary political system, and civil rights and then left a legacy of taking a big old shit on the future.

We need a wealth tax in the worst way. Hoarding your spoils at little to no cost to yourself and retaining it on the backs of your children is disgusting. This riding off into the sunset with only paying a small fraction of the bill is unacceptable

And I am more than well aware of the cultural and historical evolution of the US going back to it's inception. Quit painting that broad brush especially in light of your lack of insight of your own.

Gen Yers are narcissistic because we don't wanna pay for the irresponsibility of boomers and gen Xers :lol

And yeah, boomers have done countless hypocritical things in terms of "I got mine but fuck you!"

They went from being the generation of cocaine and drugs to the generation of "just say no!" and went from being the generation that had jobs waiting for them to the generation of "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" After being handed a land full of opportunity by the generation that suffered the great depression they've somehow convinced themselves they had a tough upbringing and had to work harder than anyone else when it was the exact opposite.

[TeyshaBlue]

Gen Yers are narcissistic because we don't wanna pay for the irresponsibility of boomers and gen Xers :lol

And yeah, boomers have done countless hypocritical things in terms of "I got mine but fuck you!"

They went from being the generation of cocaine and drugs to the generation of "just say no!" and went from being the generation that had jobs waiting for them to the generation of "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps!" After being handed a land full of opportunity by the generation that suffered the great depression they've somehow convinced themselves they had a tough upbringing and had to work harder than anyone else when it was the exact opposite.

This conflation of memes is nothing more than a reflection of the subsets of boomers. Each generation is not static nor are they monolithic in thought and purpose. Different sets wax and wane as different stimuli are applied or inflicted. Remember, it was the boomers that transformed the counter-culture from the 50's into a full fledged movement in the 60's....a fleeting phenomenon yeah, (what, 10 maybe 15 years?) but a potent move from the establishment. There was a significant narcissistic component in that movement as well, symple19.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This conflation of memes is nothing more than a reflection of the subsets of boomers. Each generation is not static nor are they monolithic in thought and purpose. Different sets wax and wane as different stimuli are applied or inflicted. Remember, it was the boomers that transformed the counter-culture from the 50's into a full fledged movement in the 60's....a fleeting phenomenon yeah, (what, 10 maybe 15 years?) but a potent move from the establishment. There was a significant narcissistic component in that movement as well, symple19.

And that really is what makes me sad. They took that counter culture and did facilitate more equality for women and minorities. The fall from there is truly a tragedy.