Not one, Not two, ...

[baseline bum]

but three (?) titles Manu has cost us?

Discuss

[Darius McCrary]

Only 1, tbh.

[Obstructed_View]

Zero. Pop going small has cost the Spurs at least two so far.

[hater]

unfortunately if you really analize this series. If Spurs were to lose, Manu would have been the difference. Dude gets major minutes and handles the ball, plus 8 turnovers with 2 in OT???????

yes, he cost us this championship if we lose. But we won't Spurs in 7

I don't think manu cost us any previous championship imo

[TrainOfThought5]

while manu has definitely cost us THIS title.....

Pop has cost us a couple himself with random bullshit.

[vander]

him getting/being injured in the playoffs cost at least one more, maybe 2

[temujin]

I really liked that one backup PG that played for the Spurs in G6.
So that Manu didn't have to play PG, which isn't really his role.
What was his name again, Decolo, Joseph, McGradY.

I thought the contribution of that guy helped secure the title.

[therealtruth]

Zero. Pop going small has cost the Spurs at least two so far.

It may end up costing us this one as well. Pop is going to need at least 25 productive minutes from Splitter. TD/Splitter is our best Lebron deterrence. That's the whole reason the Heat are going small they can't score against us like that. In '11 Spoelstra hadn't figured out he could go small. Now he has.

[Russ]

He sure as heck didn't cost 'em that 2005 title vs. Detroit. :)

[timvp]

In the three losses this series, the Spurs have a plus/minus of -66 when Manu is on the court.

When he has been on the bench in those three games, the Spurs have a plus/minus of +30.

Blaming a series loss on one player is too cruel (even Hedo, tbh) but, damn, a 96 point swing in three games?

:cry

[emanueldavidginobili]

He has helped us win 3, gtfo

[Spurs and Mavs fan]

For all the talk about Manu, if Kawhi Leonard had made just 1 more FT, the Spurs would almost certainly have won.

[DMC]

You get there with the guys that win or lose it. Of course they cost you the ring if you lose, but they cost you everything if they don't play at all because you never get there in the first place so these meltdown threads are really short sighted. It's been an every other game thing all series and for 2 series for Miami. We almost got 2 in a row, and they pulled it out in OT, but they have to be worried as well knowing Manu had the worst game of his career, TP didn't do so hot and our shooters were ineffective and we still almost won. They close out, we go inside, they collapse, we shoot the three, they zone, we attack. They know this. We'll see how the Spurs play next game, but the Heat are positioned to lose this game and tbh, the Spurs have nothing to lose, nothing at all.

[Obstructed_View]

It may end up costing us this one as well. Pop is going to need at least 25 productive minutes from Splitter. TD/Splitter is our best Lebron deterrence. That's the whole reason the Heat are going small they can't score against us like that. In '11 Spoelstra hadn't figured out he could go small. Now he has.

Unlike 2006 the Spurs can beat teams going small. The problem is, Pop seems to think they can defend and rebound, which is profoundly retarded.

[ElNono]

If we lose this one, I have no problem putting it on Manu, tbh...

3-1 is still great, IMO... wish even 5% of Spurs would give you that kind of 'ship return...

[HemisfairArena]

For all the talk about Manu, if Kawhi Leonard had made just 1 more FT, the Spurs would almost certainly have won.


Kwahi isnt an experienced veteran who is the highest paid Spur player on the roster right now either.

[DPG21920]

I don't put any other series on Manu (although he's had moments...)other than this one. It's solely on his shoulders and alludes to what I was saying. I will never forgive him if the Spurs lose. I will respect him for all he is done, but I can never shake the resentment I will have towards him for what he's done this series.

This goes so far beyond due to the far-reaching ramifications of this series.

[Russ]

In the three losses this series, the Spurs have a plus/minus of -66 when Manu is on the court.:cry

What was his "plus/minus" in that Golden State game? Until I see it, I won't know what to think of him.

[milkyway21]

only 1 (Dallas).

helped San Antonio with 3.

= :toast: :lol

[johnpaulwall21]

Injuries shouldn't count. I only count 06 and this one.

[ducks]

In the three losses this series, the Spurs have a plus/minus of -66 when Manu is on the court.

When he has been on the bench in those three games, the Spurs have a plus/minus of +30.

Blaming a series loss on one player is too cruel (even Hedo, tbh) but, damn, a 96 point swing in three games?

:cry

damm wade is only -53

[ducks]

For all the talk about Manu, if Kawhi Leonard had made just 1 more FT, the Spurs would almost certainly have won. what about manu hittign he has made free throws done strech in finals before not kl

[DPG21920]

The crazy thing is WTF happened to Manu's FT"s???? How on Earth can anyone explain that? He's basically gone from super stud to the most unreliable FT shooter getting minutes on the Spurs.

[hater]

In the three losses this series, the Spurs have a plus/minus of -66 when Manu is on the court.

When he has been on the bench in those three games, the Spurs have a plus/minus of +30.

Blaming a series loss on one player is too cruel (even Hedo, tbh) but, damn, a 96 point swing in three games?

:cry

finally ppl starting to see the light

I been preaching this for months and been persecuted by the COM

by the way, is the COM disbanded already? :lol

[ffadicted]

lol gtfo, single plays don't cost championships, they're just what you remember as the culprit.

[BlackSilver]

You get there with the guys that win or lose it. Of course they cost you the ring if you lose, but they cost you everything if they don't play at all because you never get there in the first place so these meltdown threads are really short sighted. It's been an every other game thing all series and for 2 series for Miami. We almost got 2 in a row, and they pulled it out in OT, but they have to be worried as well knowing Manu had the worst game of his career, TP didn't do so hot and our shooters were ineffective and we still almost won. They close out, we go inside, they collapse, we shoot the three, they zone, we attack. They know this. We'll see how the Spurs play next game, but the Heat are positioned to lose this game and tbh, the Spurs have nothing to lose, nothing at all.

Well said. You can't blame the guys who got you there in the first place.

[ducks]

lol gtfo, single plays don't cost championships, they're just what you remember as the culprit.

one play does not -66points

[ElNono]

These series had a lot of blowouts, tbh... so the plus/minus on losses is easily exaggerated... But yeah, you can't go from beasting in one game to that turd two days later...

Personally, there's nothing to 'forgive' Manu for... he's played as hard as ever, he just wasn't good. Taking the long view, which I know it's difficult now, I'm more than happy to what he has brought to the franchise, including the 3 ships he's been integral part of, tbh...

[wtgspurs]

one wont do two is not enough huh....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVYza0NiWuU

[Baseline]

Definitely two. 1. The foul on Dirk. 2. Game 6 in Miami.

[hater]

These series had a lot of blowouts, tbh... so the plus/minus on losses is easily exaggerated... But yeah, you can't go from beasting in one game to that turd two days later...

Personally, there's nothing to 'forgive' Manu for... he's played as hard as ever, he just wasn't good. Taking the long view, which I know it's difficult now, I'm more than happy to what he has brought to the franchise, including the 3 ships he's been integral part of, tbh...

agree with you but I am just glad finally my takes are redeemed.

I saw this Shit Manu trend coming since February. And been preaching and preaching. He has been doing this shit, what he has done this playoffs since February. And still most ppl here would give him the pass. I been saying he is the reason Green and others evolved maybe a bit too late. Thank goodness they were able to evolve despite Manu tbh. Had Green and others not evolved at all, we'd been fishing since round 2.

He has been hurting the Spurs since February and finally he is inserting the final stake in the team's heart. Nothing against Manu tbh, not only his fault. Pop and the front office decided to roll with this black hole and now are reaping the results.

Still.. Spurs in 7 :lol

[HI-FI]

In the three losses this series, the Spurs have a plus/minus of -66 when Manu is on the court.

When he has been on the bench in those three games, the Spurs have a plus/minus of +30.

Blaming a series loss on one player is too cruel (even Hedo, tbh) but, damn, a 96 point swing in three games?

:cry
Non-issue
-ElNono

[DPG21920]

These series had a lot of blowouts, tbh... so the plus/minus on losses is easily exaggerated... But yeah, you can't go from beasting in one game to that turd two days later...

Personally, there's nothing to 'forgive' Manu for... he's played as hard as ever, he just wasn't good. Taking the long view, which I know it's difficult now, I'm more than happy to what he has brought to the franchise, including the 3 ships he's been integral part of, tbh...

No - he's not playing as hard as ever. Playing hard is not just physical. He's not attacking as much as he could and he is mentally weak. That is not playing hard IMO. Sure, he's been an unbelievable Spur so I am not talking about hating him. This clearly taints the love affair that was Manu Ginobili if the Spurs lose.

Huge difference in having an off series, vs being the sole reason your team can't over come the Heat to hoist their 5th title. This is a series so bad, so poorly played by Manu that it changes the way you feel about him IMO.

[SA210]

Zero. Pop going small has cost the Spurs at least two so far.


And trying to make it 3

[ElNono]

agree with you but I am just glad finally my takes are redeemed.

:lol you've been all over the place all season. And no, you're redeemed, Manu isn't 'done', he had a bad series... just like Tim did two/three years ago. Obviously, this is much magnified because it isn't the 1st or 2nd round, it's the Finals.

tbh, since I've been keeping score on you, you've posted a disclaimer with an out on every prediction :lol

[DPG21920]

Nono - how on Earth can you say he's not done while posting what you have? You have essentially said the Spurs need to bring in help to do what Gino is supposed to do but can no longer do on a playoff team? If he can no longer do his job at a high enough level for a title contender on a consistent basis, is that not the definition of done?

[hater]

Manu isn't 'done'

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[ElNono]

No - he's not playing as hard as ever. Playing hard is not just physical. He's not attacking as much as he could and he is mentally weak. That is not playing hard IMO. Sure, he's been an unbelievable Spur so I am not talking about hating him. This clearly taints the love affair that was Manu Ginobili if the Spurs lose.

Disagree. He's playing his heart out every game. I'm sure he's frustrated as much as anybody else is, but it certainly not for mailing it in.

As I said before, one game/series/season doesn't taint the solid 10 years he gave this franchise. I understand it's difficult with the tunnel-vision of the moment, but I have zero doubt about it.


Huge difference in having an off series, vs being the sole reason your team can't over come the Heat to hoist their 5th title. This is a series so bad, so poorly played by Manu that it changes the way you feel about him IMO.

Not here. At all. Love Manu, love him to be a Spur. Always be grateful to him. I feel bad for him, because I know he's very frustrated with his play, but I appreciate he leaves it all out there for the team.

[ducks]

who does not leave it out there?

[ElNono]

Nono - how on Earth can you say he's not done while posting what you have? You have essentially said the Spurs need to bring in help to do what Gino is supposed to do but can no longer do on a playoff team? If he can no longer do his job at a high enough level for a title contender on a consistent basis, is that not the definition of done?

There's a role for Manu in this team that doesn't involve being the 'top dog' on the second unit. He's still useful probably against the other 80% of the league, and still better than guys like Neal, etc... so yeah, he isn't 'done' as a player.

[ducks]

without manu neal and the rest of the bench would be forced to get experience might cost the spurs a couple games doing regular season but will learn to be effective against teams like heat

[ducks]

There's a role for Manu in this team that doesn't involve being the 'top dog' on the second unit. He's still useful probably against the other 80% of the league, and still better than guys like Neal, etc... so yeah, he isn't 'done' as a player.

be like patty with the towel for vet min

[DPG21920]

Disagree. He's playing his heart out every game. I'm sure he's frustrated as much as anybody else is, but it certainly not for mailing it in.

As I said before, one game/series/season doesn't taint the solid 10 years he gave this franchise. I understand it's difficult with the tunnel-vision of the moment, but I have zero doubt about it.



Not here. At all. Love Manu, love him to be a Spur. Always be grateful to him. I feel bad for him, because I know he's very frustrated with his play, but I appreciate he leaves it all out there for the team.

Oh, he's so beloved I don't think everyone turns on him (nor should they "hate" on him). But I do think you are woefully underestimating the impact this has on how many fans will view him. He will go from the most beloved Spurs of all time to a guy that was pretty well appreciated. Huge difference.

[DPG21920]

There's a role for Manu in this team that doesn't involve being the 'top dog' on the second unit. He's still useful probably against the other 80% of the league, and still better than guys like Neal, etc... so yeah, he isn't 'done' as a player.

Again, disagree. So now he's not even capable of being a bench leader? If you are a big 3 member and you cannot perform at a decent level, let alone lead a bench against bench units and then come in during crunch time, that's pretty much done.

I don't think he's done, but don't see how you saying what you say can argue otherwise.

[ElNono]

Oh, he's so beloved I don't think everyone turns on him (nor should they "hate" on him). But I do think you are woefully underestimating the impact this has on how many fans will view him. He will go from the most beloved Spurs of all time to a guy that was pretty well appreciated. Huge difference.

Nah. I think over time the reading of this series will be that he's lost some of his magic due to getting older. And there's some of that, obviously. Pretty sure. But hey, just my opinion.


Again, disagree. So now he's not even capable of being a bench leader? If you are a big 3 member and you cannot perform at a decent level, let alone lead a bench against bench units and then come in during crunch time, that's pretty much done.

I don't think he's done, but don't see how you saying what you say can argue otherwise.

Well, hater's argument was that he was done as a player. I don't agree with that. If you want to change the argument to him being no longer a 'big 3' on this team, then I would probably agree, especially with the ascension of Kawhi. But those are two different arguments, tbh.

[hater]

:lmao when you have 8 turnovers in a finals game and 2 in OT you are fucking done

wow, just wow

[ElNono]

:lmao when you have 8 turnovers in a finals game and 2 in OT you are fucking done

:lol when you drop 24-10 in an NBA Finals game, you're not done.

wow, just wow

[DPG21920]

Nah. I think over time the reading of this series will be that he's lost some of his magic due to getting older. And there's some of that, obviously. Pretty sure. But hey, just my opinion.



Well, hater's argument was that he was done as a player. I don't agree with that. If you want to change the argument to him being no longer a 'big 3' on this team, then I would probably agree, especially with the ascension of Kawhi. But those are two different arguments, tbh.

No - my argument is someone can't say "Manu is not done" while at the same time say "Spurs need to bring in someone who does what Manu is supposed to do: A ball handler, passer, scorer.... In addition to that, he is not capable of being a big 3 member or leading a bench unit..".

If you can't handle the ball, take care of it, score or even be effective as a bench leader, what can you do and how is that not effectively done if you really believe that and aren't making excuses?

[TheGreatYacht]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4uU7VBqy-A

[DPG21920]

^ See, it's happening.

[hater]

:lol when you drop 24-10 in an NBA Finals game, you're not done.

wow, just wow

8 Turnovers

he matched the NBA Finals record in Turnovers :lol

let me repeat the NBA Finals Record. that is in the last 50 years, Manu matched what only 2 other players in history did

:lol not done

[hater]

holy shit, even the fat nigga off the spurs wagon

shit is real :wow

[ElNono]

No - my argument is someone can't say "Manu is not done" while at the same time say "Spurs need to bring in someone who does what Manu is supposed to do: A ball handler, passer, scorer.... In addition to that, he is not capable of being a big 3 member or leading a bench unit..".

There's nothing wrong with that argument. There are different roles on a team. Manu gets a new, different role, and somebody else takes his. As a matter of fact, this has happened already in Manu's career. Going from SG to backup PG. He's still a useful player against the bulk of the league.


If you can't handle the ball, take care of it, score or even be effective as a bench leader, what can you do and how is that not effectively done if you really believe that and aren't making excuses?

I disagree he can't do that. Maybe not consistently against this Heat team, but against the rest of the league, he can, IMO.

[ElNono]

not done

Agree.

[texmich]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4uU7VBqy-Ahttp://gifatron.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/George-Costanza-clapping.gifDeserves its own thread tbfh

[DPG21920]

There's nothing wrong with that argument. There are different roles on a team. Manu gets a new, different role, and somebody else takes his. As a matter of fact, this has happened already in Manu's career. Going from SG to backup PG. He's still a useful player against the bulk of the league.



I disagree he can't do that. Maybe not consistently against this Heat team, but against the rest of the league, he can, IMO.

I see. Just seems like what you are typing disagrees with what you just said tbh..

[Mark in Austin]

In the three losses this series, the Spurs have a plus/minus of -66 when Manu is on the court.

When he has been on the bench in those three games, the Spurs have a plus/minus of +30.

Blaming a series loss on one player is too cruel (even Hedo, tbh) but, damn, a 96 point swing in three games?

:cry

:wow:wow:wow:wow holy shit I knew it was bad but not THAT bad.

[ElNono]

I see. Just seems like what you are typing disagrees with what you just said tbh..

Disagree. I'm sure you'll argue the disconnect if there was one.

[DPG21920]

You typed that he can't lead a bench unit and that the spurs need to bring in a ball handler/play maker.

[tesseractive]

It may end up costing us this one as well. Pop is going to need at least 25 productive minutes from Splitter. TD/Splitter is our best Lebron deterrence. That's the whole reason the Heat are going small they can't score against us like that. In '11 Spoelstra hadn't figured out he could go small. Now he has.
Do you even watch the games, or do you just look at the lineups on a computer to see what to complain about? When Splitter's been in during the last couple of games, he hasn't exactly been killing it. We would never have made it past Memphis without him, but Miami is the worst possible matchup for him. He can't guard LeBron or Wade, and he's a liability chasing their shooters around the perimeter. And he's not nearly good enough on offense to justify his lack of defense, nor is he an elite rebounder. If we were still seeing Haslem/Bosh lineups, Splitter could still play alongside Duncan. But Haslem has been rooted to the bench, and Splitter only fits on the court as TD's backup.

[ElNono]

You typed that he can't lead a bench unit and that the spurs need to bring in a ball handler/play maker.

So where's the disconnect? He can't play, say, off-the-ball backup SG and be useful in that role?

[ElNono]

I also typed that he can still be useful as a backup PG against a good chunk of the league, tbh... but I prefer if there's an extra full time ballhandler/play maker on the team too... I think this team has been needing that, and Neal just hasn't delivered on that aspect.

[DPG21920]

When someone essentially says a player can no longer do what he is supposed to do (handle the ball, not turn it over against playoff quality opposition, score or even be the best player on a bench), that kind of means that player is done.

By your logic, no one is really ever done because there is always something else they can do. Done means in context of being a playoff relevant player for guys of Manu's stature. Not only that, if he's not even able lead a bench against other bench units effectively, then wow.

You mentioned Tim in comparison about flaming out. Well, Tim is still a top 10 player and still a very great playoff player against playoff starters.

We have a SG that starts and his name is Danny.

[DPG21920]

If Manu's only capable of being a back up PG (which we have several already), you pay him like that and that means 2-3M per year. You disagree?

[ElNono]

When someone essentially says a player can no longer do what he is supposed to do (handle the ball, not turn it over against playoff quality opposition, score or even be the best player on a bench), that kind of means that player is done.

Disagree and this is a false premise. I never said Manu needs to do all those things, that's entirely your opinion. Which is respectable, but IMO, incorrect.

IMO Manu can still score, can be the best player on the bench against 80% of the league, and against the other 20% he can still be useful from a non-backup PG role, IMO.


By your logic, no one is really ever done because there is always something else they can do. Done means in context of being a playoff relevant player for guys of Manu's stature. Not only that, if he's not even able lead a bench against other bench units effectively, then wow.

But that's redefining 'done'. You don't have to do it. The 'done' hater was talking about is that he cannot play in this league anymore, thus his desire for Manu to retire.

Under that definition of 'done', I don't agree with him. Do you?

[DPG21920]

How is it a false premise what that is essentially what you said yourself? I don't agree with what you said which is why I started the convo. No, I don't think he is done as just being able to play in the NBA. Matt Bonner is in the NBA. Reggie Evans is too.

The question is, can Manu be an impact player in the playoffs knowing the team is a title or bust team going forward?

[ElNono]

If Manu's only capable of being a back up PG (which we have several already), you pay him like that and that means 2-3M per year. You disagree?

I'd like Nando to come together as the backup PG, and Manu perhaps take the reins as a backup SG... Teams also play much more smallball these days, so there's going to be time for guards.

I don't particularly care what they pay Manu, tbh, because as I stated, I don't think it's going to be something that affects the moves they want to do this summer.

[DPG21920]

Ok, but if Manu is now in the role he always has been (back up SG) and you are saying he can no longer lead a bench unit (your words) how can he not be done in that context?

[ElNono]

How is it a false premise what that is essentially what you said yourself? I don't agree with what you said which is why I started the convo.

It's a false premise because players that can't be 'the best player on a bench' aren't 'done', under the definition of 'done' we were using with hater. That's probably where the confusion stems.


No, I don't think he is done as just being able to play in the NBA. Matt Bonner is in the NBA. Reggie Evans is too.

Agreed.


The question is, can Manu be an impact player in the playoffs knowing the team is a title or bust team going forward?

Impact, not consistently. But he can still be useful. We have other guys that can be impactful out there now, like Kawhi. I was hoping the same for Tiago, but it didn't pan out.

[Mugen]

Manu is costing us just this championship tbh. Him not fucking up in 04, 07 and not being hurt in 08, 09, and '11 doesn't change the Spurs not ringing those years.

[ElNono]

Ok, but if Manu is now in the role he always has been (back up SG) and you are saying he can no longer lead a bench unit (your words) how can he not be done in that context?

Well, I said he can't do that against certain teams, so it's implicit that, in that context, against certain teams, he's done with that role. But I still think there's some Game 5's games left on him, on either role. Just not as consistently.

[emanueldavidginobili]

If the Spurs played anyone else instead of the Heat in the finals he is averaging 15/5/4 the heat are easily the best pick and roll defense he has faced in his career and doesn't help that he was 35 and doesn't have the agility and athleticism that he used too honestly I think prime Manu struggles against this team not like this at allll but this is a very tough matchup for him I don't know why they continue to run p&r with him they stop it everysingle time and he ends up picking his dribble up which is stupid if you know anything about basketball they need to run him off screens and some iso plays

[emanueldavidginobili]

Actually I take that back prime Manu goes to work against this Heat team

[ElNono]

Actually I take that back prime Manu goes to work against this Heat team

well, he went to work for this Heat team last night, tbh

[emanueldavidginobili]

well, he went to work for this Heat team last night, tbh

Lol I don't get it though he shot 5 times made two okay I don't care about that but the passing?!? He's one of the best passers and he's just making horrible decisions 8 TO!!! He's my favorite player ever and it was hard to watch, if he has a decent game the spurs win #5

[ALVAREZ6]

The crazy thing is WTF happened to Manu's FT"s???? How on Earth can anyone explain that? He's basically gone from super stud to the most unreliable FT shooter getting minutes on the Spurs.
I've been baffled by this. He doesn't believe in himself. Even after game 5, his comments seemed to confirm that it was largely due to luck. His first couple outside jumpers happened to go in, giving him temporary confidence and home crowd love, and the Heat had won the previous game and thus didn't play with that backs against the wall desperation-defense.

Manu tends to either have a very bad or solid game, with little inbetween. It's all in how he starts. If he starts poorly, turning it over, he should be pulled.

[Juggity]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4uU7VBqy-A

Damn, I totally forgot about this guy.

[HI-FI]

Damn, I totally forgot about this guy.

eatdatpussy445 is a national treasure, and as per par, right on the money about Manu fucking Ginobili.

[spursparker9]

eatdatpussy445 is a national treasure, and as per par, right on the money about Manu fucking Ginobili.

He did his reviews on last year OKC series also right? :lol

I can't wait for his video after game 7.

[Solid D]

This thread was not posted in all good conscience.