China

[Nbadan]

Posted by DOS in another thread...


Can you, or anyone, tell me who will be the nation’s greatest threat 20 years from now?

probably china!

China owns so much U.S. debt that all they would have to do is stop buying government securities, and it would bring the U.S. government and military to a virtual standstill.

China is building new military weapons at a alarming rate including a new modern Navy.

Chinese front companies have financed 40% of new home purchases in the U.S., making the owners indebted to China.

China has a million man active-duty army, ICBM missiles and over 300 known nuclear warheads.

China has refused to join the rest of the modern world on work rights, the average worker makes less than .50 per hour.

A Chinese politician recently said publicly that 'China is ready to use nuclear weapons against the U.S.'.

A Chinese-Al Queda terror connection would in-time bankrupt the British (European) and U.S. Governments chasing ghosts

Wake-up America.

[Clandestino]

the sky is falling!

[Cant_Be_Faded]

china is already our biggest threat, and has been for years

[Dos]

yeah no one took those islamofacist threats seriously till they started taking aim at americans....

can you remember the iranian death to the great satan campaign in the 70's....

[Guru of Nothing]

Blah blah blah blah.

American idiots will detract from the quality of my life FAR MORE than the Chinese government ever could.

[smeagol]

Why is everything measured in terms of threats?

And why is China a threat?

Because they are a country who wants to sell their goods to the rest of the World, just as any other country, including the US?

Because they have a different way of living when compared to Western countries?

Because they could be a more powerfull country in 20 years?

Just wondering . . .

[hunter-thereckoning]

i'm just waiting for the chinese to come try to invade texas
and for the terrorists to try to attack texas with terror

i keep a copy of red dawn in my vcr at all times

[whottt]

Why is everything measured in terms of threats?

And why is China a threat?

Because they are a country who wants to sell their goods to the rest of the World, just as any other country, including the US?

Because they have a different way of living when compared to Western countries?

Because they could be a more powerfull country in 20 years?

Just wondering . . .


Um...because the Chinese are getting ready to invade Taiwan(the Taiwanese don't want to be invaded)and one of their generals just said this:


f the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons," said General Zhu Chenghu.



China ready to use nuclear weapons against US over Taiwan: media (http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050715/1/3tion.html)



But by all means blame America...even when they are trying to defend a free country from one that will imprison and execute you (and all of your family)for speaking your mind like we are doing at this very minute...


If China is so great, by all means move there....then try criticizing their governement in a public place...and watch what happens to you, and your family.

[whottt]

Dan, aren't you getting a little too bloodthirsty here?

One war at a time you little Rumsfeld you...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

China's general Gongsun Zan will be invading the northern provinces of Wu before summer's end.

[whottt]

And BTW, this will not happen...

China gets it's ass kicked in any kind of a war with the US and they know it...not only are they particularly suceptible to environmental catastrophe in a war with us...but the economic damage would leave them slightly further back than they were as a feudal society.

On top of that, the people there don't like the fact that their government makes them disappear when they bitch, and they also don't like having no control over their family life and career...there is a very strong Democratic movement there.

That's the problem with dictator style goverments....they have to use their military to control segments of their own country if they get into a war...

China is full of shit...

But I wonder if they'll actually nuke Yao....right in front of the Worlds Eyes.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Why is everything measured in terms of threats?

And why is China a threat?

Because they are a country who wants to sell their goods to the rest of the World, just as any other country, including the US?

Because they have a different way of living when compared to Western countries?

Because they could be a more powerfull country in 20 years?

Just wondering . . .

Let them nuke the hell out of each other and then the Southern Hemisphere will rule! Hahaha!

Oh, wait, there is the "small" chance of a nuclear winter...
:depressed

[whottt]

china talks big right now, but they're not Quite there (ready to compete with the US) yet

i give them 6-10 years



I don't...they are a communist country...communism, and economic and financial growth are the antithesis of one another...

The only reason China is an economic power in the slightest is because they Westernized their economy...but they still have a huge unemployment problem.

All that has produced is an economic powerhouse that has one of lowest incomes per capita in the world...

Stick a communist goverment on top of all that and you have a very unhappy population...

Their economic power(that they gain by being cheap labor) is sucked dry by being forced to care for their enormous population and the military they must maintain to keep the government in power.

The country may be rich...but it's citizens are poor, and no government is going to be popular under those conditions.

IOW...

China won't be shit as long as they stay a communist regime.

They are doing good just to stay Communist China.

And they are much more dependent on us than we are on them.

They have population issues, they deforestation and soil erosions issues, they have health issues, they have puplic disatisfaction with the government and quality of living issues....

It's just not easy being communist.

LMAO...they've got millions of Muslim Fundamentalists...and Radical Pro Democats within their borders...I call that a headache....

[hunter-thereckoning]

ya but communism isnt really built to hold up large nations like russia and china but it does help with small ones like cuba

[Cant_Be_Faded]

china has the man power that the US leaders can only dream of

[smeagol]

But by all means blame America...even when they are trying to defend a free country from one that will imprison and execute you (and all of your family)for speaking your mind like we are doing at this very minute...

I'm not blaming America for anything. I just don't see why China is a threat (aside from threatening America's position as #1 economic power, which I hope is not enough of a reason to go to war). That's all.

[SWC Bonfire]

i'm just waiting for the chinese to come try to invade texas
and for the terrorists to try to attack texas with terror

i keep a copy of red dawn in my vcr at all times

:lol

You might want to stock up on the .50 caliber rifles discussed in another thread.

[SWC Bonfire]

I'm not blaming America for anything. I just don't see why China is a threat (aside from threatening America's position as #1 economic power, which I hope is not enough of a reason to go to war). That's all.

Yeah, it's not like they have any ambitions to overtake Taiwan by force and upset the global marketplace.

[MannyIsGod]

You know whats fucked up about Taiwan? We don't even recognize them as a country.

So what you all are telling me, is that a country that our government doesn't even have the balls to officially recognize is going to be the reason we are ready to go to war with China?

Excuse me if I stop for one second and call bullshit.

There is one reason China is percived (either correctly or incorrectly) as a thread and that is because of it's pending status as the primary economic power in the world. The United States doesn't want China doing to it what it has done to other countries for the past 50 years: Impose its will.

The United States has the ability to impose it's will across the globe. Who is there to challenge it? Much of it's policy is dedicated torwards not losing that power. Whether or not the actions it takes are justified by a "noble" goal is very debatable, but the fact that it uses its power to supress other states from threatening it's superiority is not.

[SWC Bonfire]

Nobody said anything about going to war with China over Taiwan. That is merely an illustration of a scenario in which China is a treat to the world at large (and us). You can't say that the US isn't adamate about keeping the mainland Chinese out of Taiwan.

On the other part of your post, why wouldn't the US be protective of its position in the world marketplace? You like your job, don't you? It's not much of an argument to chastise the US on it's "ability to impose it's will" when you enjoy the results. If any other country could, they'd be doing it as well. As far as superpowers imposing their will on foriegn countries go, we ain't doing such a bad job. Ask the Chinese about all the meddling that took place in their business back in the 1800's by all the (then) major european powers.

[MannyIsGod]

Nobody said anything about going to war with China over Taiwan. That is merely an illustration of a scenario in which China is a treat to the world at large (and us). You can't say that the US isn't adamate about keeping the mainland Chinese out of Taiwan.

Question: Why won't the United States officialy recognize the ROC as a country? Trust me, I like reading Tom Clancy novels as much as the next guy, but Jack Ryan isn't going to be president and we're not going to war with China.

Question #2: If China invaded Taiwan today would we be in a position to do anything about it? I don't think so.

Questoin #3: If we're so big on self determination and allowing people to choose their own futures, explain to me why there isn't an independent Kurdistan in Iraq? Explain to me why a state in the US is not allowed to suceed? If we're so big on it, why the hell haven't we made a statement by official recognition.

Make no mistake about it. Our support of Taiwan is done in order to counteract China, we are not counteracting China because support of Taiwan is our primary goal.

And please, China invading Taiwan is hardly a global threat.



On the other part of your post, why wouldn't the US be protective of its position in the world marketplace? You like your job, don't you? It's not much of an argument to chastise the US on it's "ability to impose it's will" when you enjoy the results. If any other country could, they'd be doing it as well. As far as superpowers imposing their will on foriegn countries go, we ain't doing such a bad job. Ask the Chinese about all the meddling that took place in their business back in the 1800's by all the (then) major european powers.
I enjoy the results? Using that logic if I was a member of a Mob family I should go along with the criminal activity because it made me rich.

That last portion of your post reeks of justification.

[SWC Bonfire]

I have no idea where you jumped to the conclusion that anyone wants to go to war with China. I illustrated calmly a scenario that the Chinese posed a threat to other countries and the world economy in response to smeagol's statement.

You're right, part of our support for Taiwan is to check China. China invading Taiwan may not be a "global" threat, but it is a real threat to the US economy:


The trade in commercial goods between Taiwan and the United States totaled US$49.09 billion in 2003. Of that, U.S. exports to Taiwan accounted for US$17.49 billion, while U.S. imports from Taiwan totaled US$31.6 billion, resulting in a U.S. deficit of US$14.1 billion. Taiwan was the United States' eighth largest trading partner, its ninth largest export market, and its eighth largest source of imports.

You are just arguing to be argumentative. States seceeding from the Union? Do you really want to debate that?

And I thought justification for your actions was a good thing.:lol Perhaps you meant rationalization.

Addendum: Source of info - TECRO (http://www.tecro.org/content.php?section=relations) - Has some other interesting info on US/ROC relations (this is a ROC government site)

[Jekka]

China has a modern legacy of talking big. That's not to say that they haven't acted big as well, but they definitely have a history of telling people what they feel like they need to hear. It doesn't mean they will act on it.

A Chinese politician said they are prepared to use nuclear weapons on the US? Who asked him the question? The media treatment by government in China is a joke - they don't give truth to the media for shit - they only way you get the truth there is to bribe a civilian or take one out of the country. China thrives on the government holding the people up with a promise for something better. They haven't gotten it yet.

China has yet to even win Taiwan back, they're not coming here before they accomplish the latter. If we get into anything with China it will be there - that goes back to Chiang Kai-shek's flight and our history of aiding anyone who isn't communist. The US has been a big pussy in this situation, supporting and officially recognizing a country that obviously violates human rights, but giving aid instead to the neighbor who isn't red. The US seems to be in a position where they can both weasel their way out of helping Taiwan and avoid China's immediate wrath by doing so. We've got too much going on elsewhere to devote a lot of manpower and money there. China does not seem to be an imminent threat.

[MannyIsGod]

Good call on my bad choice of words. I did mean rationalizaton.

Smeagol meant China being a threat in a global sense or to the United States. Your (and others) response(s) using the ROC situation as an example was then interprited as China being a threat to the United States or the world because of it's stance torwards Taiwan.

Why is the state succesion analogy not valid? Taiwan is just that. A former/current state trying to establish a seperate country.

I'm not arguing to be argumentative. I don't belive that China is a global threat and you do.

China resuming control over Taiwan through forceful invasion would undoubtly have a bad effect on the trade. But the products that Taiwan produces are not something that we can't get from many other places. We're not talking about oil reserves - we're talking cheap electronics and crap like toys.

The United States is guilty of really bad foriegn policy towards that situation.

[MannyIsGod]

Executive Summary

The Bush administration has gone from one extreme to the other with regard to U.S. policy on Taiwan. During the early months of his administration, the president gave a seemingly unconditional pledge to defend Taiwan from attack by mainland China--going significantly further than his predecessors had. He followed that assurance by approving the largest arms sales package to Taiwan in nearly a decade. In marked contrast to the Clinton years, high-profile visits by Taiwanese leaders to the United States have been encouraged, despite Beijing's protests.

That pro-Taiwan stance appeared to change dramatically in December 2003 during a visit by Chinese premier Wen Jiabao. President Bush publicly admonished Taiwanese president Chen Shuibian for seeking to change the political status of the island unilaterally and emphasized Washington's opposition to any unilateral actions. At issue is the Taiwanese government's intent to hold referenda on sensitive issues, which Beijing believes is the latest installment in an ongoing campaign to achieve independence.

Neither the earlier pro-Taiwan policy nor the latest pro-Beijing posture serves the best interests of the United States. It is not America's proper role to take a position on Taiwan's independence or other issues involving relations between Taipei and Beijing. Taiwan is a vibrant democracy, and the United States should respect that society's democratic prerogatives. At the same time, U.S. leaders should make it clear that Taiwan must bear all of the risks entailed in whatever policies it adopts. In particular, Washington should state that it will not intervene if an armed conflict breaks out between Taiwan and mainland China.


http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=1606

[SWC Bonfire]

Well, the ROC is the leftovers of China's gov. after the communist uprising. If the South would have won, and more of the country would have sided with the Confederacy, and the US government would have been run out of Washington and forced to hole up in New Hampshire or Maine, that would have been more comparable to Taiwan.

I guess we'll have to disagree on the China as a threat thing. I think nationalism is growing in China, and if you've ever interacted with grad students fresh out of China you realize the extent of the control of information by the Communist government. Yes, they have capitalized a good deal of the industry. But the government still controls the minds of the people. I am concerned with them trying to control all of Asia. That is not a good scenario for the Western world, the US included.

[Jekka]

Well, the ROC is the leftovers of China's gov. after the communist uprising. If the South would have won, and more of the country would have sided with the Confederacy, and the US government would have been run out of Washington and forced to hole up in New Hampshire or Maine, that would have been more comparable to Taiwan.

I guess we'll have to disagree on the China as a threat thing. I think nationalism is growing in China, and if you've ever interacted with grad students fresh out of China you realize the extent of the control of information by the Communist government. Yes, they have capitalized a good deal of the industry. But the government still controls the minds of the people. I am concerned with them trying to control all of Asia. That is not a good scenario for the Western world, the US included.

I think you overestimate the nationalism in China - grad students would have a better view of the government there - they've been treated better. The vast majority of the population however remains in rural poverty. The nationalism there is not at the all time low it was at after martial law in Tiananmen Square, but it's definitely not the enthusiasm of the Great Leap Forward either. In the end, I don't think that the people have much of a say at all when it comes to national policy and that they are still at the mercy of the men at the top of the pyramid - but I doubt those men will do anything soon outside of Taiwan.

And as for the Communist uprising, the frequency at which government changed hands before the Communists took power was such that most people (the majority of whom were still peasants) did not even know what was going on. Communication was horrible, and until the Communists won the revolution, most people were under the control of war lords who didn't feel the need to answer to a higher authority, most were extremely corrupt. When the Communists came in and promised a centralized government with accountable officials and a voice, most people didn't object. Obviously the Manchu minority with ties to the unseated Emperor had a problem with it ... but that doesn't account for much of the population at all. The Japanese later appealed to them by putting Pu Yi up in a puppet regime at Manchukuo, and look how successfully that turned out.

[SWC Bonfire]

I can certainly verify the casual attitude that the grad students had about Tienamin and other uprisings. They maintained that it was just a "few" bad apples (well, as a percentage maybe that is a true statement). One young lady who was a TA in one of my design classes told us once that "if you are good and act like you are supposed to then no harm would come to you" (that's a paraphrase). As long as she meant don't go on a serial killing spree, then I would agree... but it was in the context of a conversation on the extent of the internet in China.

I was under the assumption that the communist government didn't come about until the mid 1940's, after Japan had been run out of China. Are you referring to existing communist factions that were in Japanese-occupied China during WWII?

[whottt]

I'm not blaming America for anything. I just don't see why China is a threat (aside from threatening America's position as #1 economic power, which I hope is not enough of a reason to go to war). That's all.


I agree with that...but right now one of their generals is saying he's going to nuke us...I call that reason for concern if nothing else.

[Jekka]

I can certainly verify the casual attitude that the grad students had about Tienamin and other uprisings. They maintained that it was just a "few" bad apples (well, as a percentage maybe that is a true statement). One young lady who was a TA in one of my design classes told us once that "if you are good and act like you are supposed to then no harm would come to you" (that's a paraphrase). As long as she meant don't go on a serial killing spree, then I would agree... but it was in the context of a conversation on the extent of the internet in China.

I was under the assumption that the communist government didn't come about until the mid 1940's, after Japan had been run out of China. Are you referring to existing communist factions that were in Japanese-occupied China during WWII?

I'm sorry, I should have clarified that Manchukuo was instated before the official reign of the Communist regime, but they did coexist while Communism was gaining some serious grassroots support.

The reading that I have done in terms of research with interviews and studies suggest that the incident at Tiananmen had a much larger domestic impact than you're suggesting. I'm not one to chalk everything up to a conspiracy theory, but it is possible that if not closely involved (either personally or through firsthand accounts), much of their impressions of it may have come from the press that surfaced, which was of course government approved and played the incident down quite a bit. I could be wrong though, it's been over a year since I've done much research on it.

[Vashner]

I think large amounts of Chinese troops would defect or turn on there government. It's only a matter of time before the commies loose power.

[AFE7FATMAN]

1st of all
"There is a chinaman hideing in everytown in America" George Carlin
They've been coming to this country for decades, but we love their food to much to suspect them of secretly trying to amass an army here.

They are buying our debt because they love us.

They are buying our companies because they love us.

They are ahead of us in cloning research because they really don't have 8 million men in their army.
They bought IBM computers and are building a new silicone valley because they are happy with the limited land they have for their 1 billion + hungry people and they only need to add C to ibm- ICBM's.

They owe us so much for helping them during WW2 as the JAPS raped and enslaved them :rolleyes

They have a Made in China label ready for us to put on our social security checks they hold the T Bonds on.

Need I go on.


Never fear they will spill over into Russia first, after all they don't have to swim to get there, just walk across the border-you know like from Monterry
to Laredo :lol



I don't think America should go to war over Tiawan. I do see China as a threat, moreso against Russia than the US.