Does Anyone Know Why God Allows Bad Things To Happen To Good People?

[Koolaid_Man]

I would love to hear the religious perspective. Is there some meaning to it all? Is it a lesson for humanity? I believe in God and I have to think there's a higher reason for it all that we just cannot comprehend.

[lebomb]

I would love to hear the religious perspective. Is there some meaning to it all? Is it a lesson for humanity? I believe in God and I have to think there's a higher reason for it all that we just cannot comprehend.


It goes all the way back to when man committed the very first sin by disobeying god. That opened up the doors to all evil. Its all part of gods big plan. We dont have all the answers and never will, until we meet him and ask directly. Basically noone really knows. :depressed

[Koolaid_Man]

It goes all the way back to when man committed the very first sin by disobeying god. That opened up the doors to all evil. Its all part of gods big plan. We dont have all the answers and never will, until we meet him and ask directly. Basically noone really knows. :depressed

so the sin was part of God's big plan?

[SourCandy]

Cause even good people are sinners. Everyone is..


If a person believes in God then they must know God hates all evil no matter how small or large. If you want God to get rid of evil/sin etc then he must get rid of people who murder, lie, cheat, steal..etc. Which one of us hasn't even done at least one of those? Bad things exist cause people exist. That's if you believe in all that stuff.

No follow up questions cause that's all I know about this subject :lol

[redzero]

It's because an all-good God doesn't exist. If he did exist, he wouldn't let evil exist.

[Koolaid_Man]

I'm in awe when I think of God....I just don't understand his plans

M4M6wlBjU38

[Koolaid_Man]

It's because an all-good God doesn't exist. If he did exist, he wouldn't let evil exist.

I cannot accept that...I have to believe only he knows why he should let evil exist...and I have to believe it's a valid and just reason why...I'm in awe of God's powers when I look at the universe and to me it was God who caused the big bang...there is no mathematical equation for us existing and be able to reproduce in various species...male and female the way we do...and to enjoy sex there's no way it's circumstantial. I'm starting to think God has to let evil exist for a while but will make up for it at later time...like when we get to Heaven...I know he knows about the suffering

[Koolaid_Man]

Cause even good people are sinners. Everyone is..


If a person believes in God then they must know God hates all evil no matter how small or large. If you want God to get rid of evil/sin etc then he must get rid of people who murder, lie, cheat, steal..etc. Which one of us hasn't even done at least one of those? Bad things exist cause people exist. That's if you believe in all that stuff.

No follow up questions cause that's all I know about this subject :lol

He hates evil but he tolerates it...Wasn't Jesus tortured and died on a cross and yet he was God's son? If he will allow that and then allow Jesus to come back to heaven I have to believe he has great things in store for us after we're done suffering too... you agree?

[Blake]

I also want to know why sometimes God allows good things happen to bad people

[Koolaid_Man]

and yes I know I'm a sinner...I love that kitty kat too much..and SourCandy I love that mole on the side of your lip..my goodness I want to lick that thing...you're so dam hot girl..you get me all frustrated when I see your pic.....lol

[Avante]

We humans are simply wrong about how it works. Where does it say anything about God being in control of our lives? Where we got that idea...???? That assumption is where we go wrong. Can we summons God with our prayers, that remains debatable. But to think He is there constantly watching over how many billion people isn't how it is. That is us humans not getting it.

[Koolaid_Man]

I also want to know why sometimes God allows good things happen to bad people

I think it's the same concept...maybe he's just removed himself for us until he decides to come back and judge everyone...but is it fair that Hitler or Slave Traders will get the same fate as the average sinner?

[Koolaid_Man]

We humans are simply wrong about how it works. Where does it say anything about God being in control of our lives? Where we got that idea...???? That assumption is where we go wrong. Can we summons God with our prayers, that remains debatable. But to think He is there constantly watching over how many billion people isn't how it is. That is us humans not getting it.

I think you're on to something...now finish the story..enlighten me on what you think he's doing

[Koolaid_Man]

this guy is pretty funny

Z4gx8T9Dh2Q

[Koolaid_Man]

Lavell Crawford -
If I get to Heaven and God is white, I'd be like, 'I knew it all along. Show me to the hood.' But if I get to Heaven and God is black, that's going to piss me off a little bit. I'd be like, 'Ain't this a bitch? You've been black all along? Ain't you been seeing what the hell's going on down there?' :lol

[Avante]

I think you're on to something...now finish the story..enlighten me on what you think he's doing

God (something) created all this long ago but since then He's lost interest. He (whatever) has moved on to other things, obviously we don't know that. We still think He's right there on top of it all, when in reality He's not. The Universe is huge to think He worries about just Earth....nay~~~~

[Koolaid_Man]

God (something) created all this long ago but since then He's lost interest. He (whatever) has moved on to other things, obviously we don't know that. We still think He's right there on top of it all, when in reality He's not. The Universe is huge to think He worries about just Earth....nay~~~~

losing interest doesn't make sense to me....all encompassing doesn't lose interest in anything....one thing I learned from my review of Key scriptures is that God created man in his image...there's something wrong with your theory if that's the case...to me it means we're closer to him than we can imagine and yet he's so far away

[Avante]

losing interest doesn't make sense to me....all encompassing doesn't lose interest in anything....one thing I learned from my review of Key scriptures is that God created man in his image...there's something wrong with your theory if that's the case...to me it means we're closer to him than we can imagine and yet he's so far away

Right there is what I'm talking about....we think...He's still in tune with us, when He's really not. He lost interest long ago.

[Bill_Brasky]

OhlookitsTHISthreadagain.jpg

[leemajors]

man created god.

[Koolaid_Man]

Right there is what I'm talking about....we think...He's still in tune with us, when He's really not. He lost interest long ago.

I believe he's watching us...you remember that song from a distance by Bette Midler :lol

i5_YAj9lCQc

[Koolaid_Man]

man created god.

I believe life on earth is a true pilot...God has an eternal plan for us but Earth is the first step a conduit or stepping stone to that immortality. If there was no pain there would be no pleasure...and so I will take the pain as long as I can feel the pleasure it's the manifestation of a Physical as opposed to Spiritual existence...

:hat

[AchillesHeel]

God is a huge faggot, tbh.

[Koolaid_Man]

God is a huge faggot, tbh.

don't be surprised if something bad happens to you soon....

[The Reckoning]

because women fucked everything up

[AchillesHeel]

don't be surprised if something bad happens to you soon....

If only god visited ST :lol

[Koolaid_Man]

because women fucked everything up


how?

[The Reckoning]

how?

ate that apple. gave into the huge throbbing snake, etc etc.

[Koolaid_Man]

ate that apple. gave into the huge throbbing snake, etc etc.

she ate the apple..but adam didn't....god could have created another wife for Adam right? I think adam was looking at her ass...and decided gimme that dam apple :lol...we're doomed....that pussy is a SOB...

[lebomb]

she ate the apple..but adam didn't....god could have created another wife for Adam right? I think adam was looking at her ass...and decided gimme that dam apple :lol...we're doomed....that pussy is a SOB...


:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao Damn niggra!!! You dont know the first thing about the bible............ YES Adam ate the apple as well. Tiggo bitties and a nice fawtbox convinced him to. Its been jacked up ever since. :toast

[Koolaid_Man]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao Damn niggra!!! You dont know the first thing about the bible............ YES Adam ate the apple as well. Tiggo bitties and a nice fawtbox convinced him to. Its been jacked up ever since. :toast

so how does god feel about your ass eating fixation ..ain't it contrary to your religious views?

[ohmwrecker]

I'm more interested to find out why good things happen to bad people tbh.

[silverblk mystix]

I would love to hear the religious perspective. Is there some meaning to it all? Is it a lesson for humanity? I believe in God and I have to think there's a higher reason for it all that we just cannot comprehend.


You (like all other humans) jumped to so many conclusions before even knowing what the word "god" is.

It is just a word - yet everyone has already blamed him/her/it or credited him/her/it with everything in the universe.

If no one has even figured out what "god" truly means or have ever seen it with their own eyes -


it is no accident that no one knows these answers.

[redzero]

If no one has even figured out what "god" truly means or have ever seen it with their own eyes -


it is no accident that no one knows these answers.

You answered your own question when you said it was just a word. God is a concept created by humans. You try to make that simple truth incomprehensible with your pseudo-enlightened, cultist nonsense.

[silverblk mystix]

You answered your own question when you said it was just a word. God is a concept created by humans. You try to make that simple truth incomprehensible with your pseudo-enlightened, cultist nonsense.


Well there is the "word" "god"

there is a reality that sleeping humans cannot see because they are asleep and then there is all the "concepts" that everyone fights about...but they aren't fighting about "god" or "reality"

they are fighting about their "concepts"


The ironic thing is that those who "wake up" will not have a need to fight about "sleeping people's concepts"

[redzero]

Well there is the "word" "god"

there is a reality that sleeping humans cannot see because they are asleep and then there is all the "concepts" that everyone fights about...but they aren't fighting about "god" or "reality"

they are fighting about their "concepts"


The ironic thing is that those who "wake up" will not have a need to fight about "sleeping people's concepts"

More gibberish.

[silverblk mystix]

More gibberish.


Sorry, sleeping people won't be able to understand it.

[redzero]

Sorry, sleeping people won't be able to understand it.

You don't even understand what you are posting, because it doesn't make sense. There is no god outside of the concept. The only truth about god is that it is merely an idea.

If you have a single shred of evidence to the contrary, please present it.

[silverblk mystix]

You don't even understand what you are posting, because it doesn't make sense. There is no god outside of the concept. The only truth about god is that it is merely an idea.

If you have a single shred of evidence to the contrary, please present it.


This statement is akin to the poor little fish in the middle of the ocean asking, "pardon me - could you tell me where I might find the ocean?"


You are swimming in god - yet you are asleep and will never awake and discover it.

[Trill Clinton]

didn't read thread yet but i'll bet my last dollar redzero is in here wasting keystrokes on a God he doesn't believe in. *goes to check*

[redzero]

Just because there might be no God doesn't mean that there is no religion. But keep defending the religion that white people shoved down your ancestor's throats and used as justification for slavery, though.

[redzero]

This statement is akin to the poor little fish in the middle of the ocean asking, "pardon me - could you tell me where I might find the ocean?"


You are swimming in god - yet you are asleep and will never awake and discover it.

No, it's akin to somebody using a circular argument because they have no proof to back up their claims.

"It's true because it's true" is not an argument.

[Koolaid_Man]

Just because there might be no God doesn't mean that there is no religion. But keep defending the religion that white people shoved down your ancestor's throats and used as justification for slavery, though.

Christianity was here long before white people..Jesus wasn't a white guy he's jewish....if there is deception it means the white man was deceived first...The Jews were God's chosen people it's why by and large they're the most successful...I do believe that blacks were cursed..read up on our 3 ancestors I think the Sons of Noah..they where Shem, which I equate to white heritage, Ham the African heritage, Japeth the Asian heritage..of the 3 I was told Ham was cursed for pulling his dad's pants down thus the reason blacks usually get the raw end of every deal...it's because of that curse of the Ham seed and it's still present with all of us blacks...

[Avante]

Being an atheist must totally suck. No faith in anything, living in a world choked full of churches. Religious holidays, gospel music, now add..so help me God...in God we trust...one nation under God....I swear to God ...while they wander around totally lost, must suck.


Then there's this childish bullshit....well can ya prove it huh huh huh huh.....hahahaha!!!!!!!!! Prove you love someone, prove your hungry, prove your jealous, prove your sad/glad/mad......can't do it.

[Trill Clinton]

Just because there might be no God doesn't mean that there is no religion. But keep defending the religion that white people shoved down your ancestor's throats and used as justification for slavery, though.

stop with this bs

[Koolaid_Man]

Being an atheist must totally suck.

I agree...what horrible life to live...I have hope that God has a plan for me...even if he doesn't believing it makes life so much easier....

[Avante]

I agree...what horrible life to live...I have hope that God has a plan for me...even if he doesn't believing it makes life so much easier....


Yep, a life with no faith in anything, no hope in anything. I think I'll pass because I'm too smart to play stupid.

[Creepn]

How would God differentiate from those who deserves to go to heaven if He keeps intervening to stop murderers from murdering?

[redzero]

:lol at the notion that atheists somehow have no hope or reason to live. That makes no goddamn sense, expecially considering the fact that Christians believe that there is a second, better life after this one. The difference between you and me is that I don't need an invisible sky daddy to make my life have a sense of worth. The only true meaning to life, outside of the biological perspective, is entirely subjective.


stop with this bs

What bs? You just hate the fact that what I posted was true. If you have an actual, logical defense of the ridiculous beliefs that were put into your head while you were a child, please post them.

[redzero]

How would God differentiate from those who deserves to go to heaven if He keeps intervening to stop murderers from murdering?

:lol What a stupid question. He would know because he is all knowing, right? And the notion of heaven and hell also contradicts the claim that God is all loving.

[Koolaid_Man]

:lol What a stupid question. He would know because he is all knowing, right? And the notion of heaven and hell also contradicts the claim that God is all loving.

how and why?

[Creepn]

:lol What a stupid question. He would know because he is all knowing, right? And the notion of heaven and hell also contradicts the claim that God is all loving.

Knows a hellava lot more than we know that's for sure. How does it contradict? I don't stop loving my daughter if I put her on punishment.

[Avante]

:lol at the notion that atheists somehow have no hope or reason to live. That makes no goddamn sense, expecially considering the fact that Christians believe that there is a second, better life after this one. The difference between you and me is that I don't need an invisible sky daddy to make my life have a sense of worth. The only true meaning to life, outside of the biological perspective, is entirely subjective.



What bs? You just hate the fact that what I posted was true. If you have an actual, logical defense of the ridiculous beliefs that were put into your head while you were a child, please post them.

That was sad. You have any idea how many people turned there life around once they found a God? You have any idea how simple and shallow you appear, how tiny? Don't get much do ya slick? So you've never heard a church choir, saw the joy God brings to others? Wow guy I pity you.


This...I can believe it if I can't see it...is so childish and immature, are you really that simple?

[Koolaid_Man]

:lol What a stupid question. He would know because he is all knowing, right? And the notion of heaven and hell also contradicts the claim that God is all loving.

how and why?

[Trill Clinton]

:lol at the notion that atheists somehow have no hope or reason to live. That makes no goddamn sense, expecially considering the fact that Christians believe that there is a second, better life after this one. The difference between you and me is that I don't need an invisible sky daddy to make my life have a sense of worth. The only true meaning to life, outside of the biological perspective, is entirely subjective.



What bs? You just hate the fact that what I posted was true. If you have an actual, logical defense of the ridiculous beliefs that were put into your head while you were a child, please post them.

nope you're wrong. your ancestors didn't teach the slaves the bible as it was written and the god your ancestors spoke of was not the one true God and father of jesus christ. typical white devil shit. thankfully they saw through the lies.

anyways, now why do you spend so much energy on a God you don't believe in? what happened in your life to cause this anger. did a preach or pastor touch you? did God not answer your prayers on time? is your life not the way you wanted it?

[silverblk mystix]

No, it's akin to somebody using a circular argument because they have no proof to back up their claims.


Sorry to break it to you - but no one has proof either way. No one has proof there is a god and no one has proof there isn't one either.

"It's true because it's true" is not an argument.


Wasn't aware there was an argument in progress.

[Koolaid_Man]

Most atheists want to believe but disillusioned with pain and suffering

[redzero]

:lol Trill and Avante recycling the same old shit, as usual. Trill, white slave masters shoved Christianity down your ancestors' throats. Stop denying it.

In regards to an all loving God sending a person to hell, one cannot be all loving and at the same time willing to give out a infinite punishment for a finite crime. One also can't be all loving, all powerful, and all knowing while at the same time letting tornadoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, murderers, etc. kill people. The Christian God is inherently contradictory.

[Creepn]

Most atheists want to believe but disillusioned with pain and suffering

What's funny is atheists like to shout that organized religion and churches are money grubbers but the leaders of the atheist movement are doing just the same.

[redzero]

What's funny is atheists like to shout that organized religion and churches are money grubbers but the leaders of the atheist movement are doing just the same.

:lol what leaders?

[Avante]

:lol Trill and Avante recycling the same old shit, as usual. Trill, white slave masters shoved Christianity down your ancestors' throats. Stop denying it.

In regards to an all loving God sending a person to hell, one cannot be all loving and at the same time willing to give out a infinite punishment for a finite crime. One also can't be all loving, all powerful, and all knowing while at the same time letting tornadoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, murderers, etc. kill people. The Christian God is inherently contradictory.

Only same old shit here is you little guy. Look around you slugger look at the world you live in. You still haven't figured it out have you? You really do need to meet some intelligent people guy, I get the impression you surround yourself with other dumb fucks like you.

So where does...bah humbug....take you, yep....nowhere.

Go to one of those catholic colleges little guy and talk your stupid shit.

[Creepn]

:lol Trill and Avante recycling the same old shit, as usual. Trill, white slave masters shoved Christianity down your ancestors' throats. Stop denying it.

In regards to an all loving God sending a person to hell, one cannot be all loving and at the same time willing to give out a infinite punishment for a finite crime. One also can't be all loving, all powerful, and all knowing while at the same time letting tornadoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, murderers, etc. kill people. The Christian God is inherently contradictory.

Is God really sending that person to hell or is the murderer having a choice and control over his own life choose that path for himself? Also, if the Christian God is contradictory, which one isn't?

[redzero]

Wasn't aware there was an argument in progress.

Then you're too dumb to know what "argument" means. And the time to believe a claim is when there is proof supporting it.

I hope you aren't going to whine about "Junior College Logic" and bitch about burden of proof again. You already contradicted yourself in an embarrassing way on this topic once before.

[redzero]

Is God really sending that person to hell or is the murderer having a choice and control over his own life choose that path for himself? Also, if the Christian God is contradictory, which one isn't?

God created hell. God created the rules. One cannot be all loving while at the same time sending people to eternal damnation for a finite crime. It's that simple.

There's also the Euthrypo dilemma, but I won't get into that just yet.

[Avante]

God created hell. God created the rules. One cannot be all loving while at the same time sending people to eternal damnation for a finite crime. It's that simple.

There's also the Euthrypo dilemma, but I won't get into that just yet.

You don't know shit about it do ya?

[Creepn]

God created hell. God created the rules. One cannot be all loving while at the same time sending people to eternal damnation for a finite crime. It's that simple.

There's also the Euthrypo dilemma, but I won't get into that just yet.

But you can have eternal bliss in heaven right? You want it to be easy.

[redzero]

Only same old shit here is you little guy. Look around you slugger look at the world you live in. You still haven't figured it out have you? You really do need to meet some intelligent people guy, I get the impression you surround yourself with other dumb fucks like you.

So where does...bah humbug....take you, yep....nowhere.

Go to one of those catholic colleges little guy and talk your stupid shit.

The one who advocating throwing logic and reasoning out the window when it comes to religion has no room calling anybody else unintelligent.

Every single argument for God's existence that I have ever seen you post, has been a logical fallacy. Like all other theists, you want to have your stupid beliefs, and you hide behind "faith" when you get called out on it.

[Trill Clinton]

:lol Trill and Avante recycling the same old shit, as usual. Trill, white slave masters shoved Christianity down your ancestors' throats. Stop denying it.

In regards to an all loving God sending a person to hell, one cannot be all loving and at the same time willing to give out a infinite punishment for a finite crime. One also can't be all loving, all powerful, and all knowing while at the same time letting tornadoes, tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, murderers, etc. kill people. The Christian God is inherently contradictory.

Sorry to burst your bubble but your ancestors didnt teach slaves shit but lies. None of your ancestors were christians, they were false prophets and are in hell burning as we speak, hallelujah!!!!

I was once a non believer but I didn't go around killing believers vibes. That was always wack to me. Ever since god saved me and changed my life, nothing but an abundance of blessings. Stop being so bitter to others you don't agree with.

[redzero]

But you can have eternal bliss in heaven right? You want it to be easy.

What does that have to do with my previous post? Again, hell contradicts an all loving God.

[Koolaid_Man]

God created hell. God created the rules. One cannot be all loving while at the same time sending people to eternal damnation for a finite crime. It's that simple.

There's also the Euthrypo dilemma, but I won't get into that just yet.

I always looked at hell as a metaphor of eternal damnation not physical burning...because once the body dies it's gone..spirits don't feel things in the physical realm....some churches haven't learned to make that clear..maybe some pastors aren't intellectual enough to understand that concept...

[redzero]

Sorry to burst your bubble but your ancestors didnt teach slaves shit but lies. None of your ancestors were christians, they were false prophets and are in hell burning as we speak, hallelujah!!!!

I was once a non believer but I didn't go around killing believers vibes. That was always wack to me. Ever since god saved me and changed my life, nothing but an abundance of blessings. Stop being so bitter to others you don't agree with.

Yawn. A No True Scotsman fallacy followed by a, "I use to be a non-believer, just like you!" bullshit anecdote. You are just as idiotic and illogical as every other Christian on this forum.

[Creepn]

What does that have to do with my previous post? Again, he'll contradicts an all loving God.

Just pointing out your contradiction.

[Koolaid_Man]

my understanding is that if you refuse to accept Christ as your lord and savior then you'll face the Lake of Fire that burns with brim and sulpher....not literally but symbolically...meaning you don't get to heaven

[Avante]

The one who advocating throwing logic and reasoning out the window when it comes to religion has no room calling anybody else unintelligent.

Every single argument for God's existence that I have ever seen you post, has been a logical fallacy. Like all other theists, you want to have your stupid beliefs, and you hide behind "faith" when you get called out on it.

Called out....hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dude, we cannot see God...ok? He's a spirit...ok?

Is this little shit for real?

[redzero]

Just pointing out your contradiction.

1.) What contradiction?
2.) You still haven't addressed my point about hell.



Called out....hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dude, we cannot see God...ok? He's a spirit...ok?

And you know this how? What evidence are you using to support your claim?

[redzero]

I am just being bombarded with logical fallacy after logical fallacy right now.

[Creepn]

Lol redzero crying for all those souls who chose to wreak havoc with their free will.

:cry but he only raped and killed a hundred little girls, it's only a finite crime!

[Koolaid_Man]

how can one see this and not believe that a super intellect exists..even if he's made himself impersonal to us and even though we can't understand his rationale there's just no way a sane person can observe this and think chance existence...and tbh when I look at my penis I know he exists no way that thing just showed up on it's own...:lol

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/grand_zpsa1bfd5c7.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/2--018_zps05b08e06.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/21_zpsa3662748.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/gorgeous-fanpaer_zps050d3805.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/BlackHole_zps9fd7cf93.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Koolbreezey/univer99_zps5a1f1dda.jpg

[Thebesteva]

Certain things in life seem thought out by a higher power. Like for example, the fact sex feels so amazingly good and yet somehow that is the very exact thing that is required in order for life to go on.

Shit like that seems VERY thought out, not just 'science' and 'chance' and bacteria was randomly floating in water and lightning struck and life began. Of course, I'm not saying that neccesarily is proof that an old man with a white beard exists, my point is whatever is happening makes about as much sense to us as internet does to an ant.

[Koolaid_Man]

Certain things in life seem thought out by a higher power. Like for example, the fact sex feels so amazingly good and yet somehow that is the very exact thing that is required in order for life to go on.

Shit like that seems VERY thought out, not just 'science' and 'chance' and bacteria was randomly floating in water and lightning struck and life began. Of course, I'm not saying that neccesarily is proof that an old man with a white beard exists, my point is whatever is happening makes about as much sense to us as internet does to an ant.

:toast the universe is God's physical creation...imagine what he's creating in the spirit world that we cannot see...

[redzero]

Lol redzero crying for all those souls who chose to wreak havoc with their free will.

:cry but only raped and killed a hundred little girls, it's only a finite crime!

I'm not crying about anything. I am merely pointing out a contradiction in logic.

If one is All-Loving, they would not sentence anybody to an infinite punishment for a finite crime. In fact, if one was All-Loving, All-Powerful, and All-Knowing, they wouldn't allow somebody to rape and murder hundreds of little girls in the first place.

"BUT MAH FREE WILL!," you idiotically cry. But what about the free will of all the little girls that is taken away by the murderer? And what about God violating peoples' free will all through out the Bible? And doesn't that excuse about free will justify human beings not helping each other? Oh! Sorry, I forgot that Christians hold their God--somebody who is better than we are in every way, according to them--to lower standards than humans. Funny how that works out.

Now what retarded excuse will you give me next?

[Blake]

Well there is the "word" "god"

there is a reality that sleeping humans cannot see because they are asleep and then there is all the "concepts" that everyone fights about...but they aren't fighting about "god" or "reality"

they are fighting about their "concepts"


The ironic thing is that those who "wake up" will not have a need to fight about "sleeping people's concepts"

More lies.

[redzero]

how can one see this and not believe that a super intellect exists..even if he's made himself impersonal to us and even though we can't understand his rationale there's just no way a sane person can observe this and think chance existence...and tbh when I look at my penis I know he exists no way that thing just showed up on it's own...:lol

Another argument from ignorance/incredulity. I should start counting the logical fallacies out in this thread.

"It seems to be this way, and I can't possibly think of it being any other way!," is not an argument.

[Blake]

I think I'll pass because I'm too smart to play stupid.

Ahhhhhhhhh hahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaa

[Blake]

Being an atheist must totally suck. No faith in anything, living in a world choked full of churches. Religious holidays, gospel music, now add..so help me God...in God we trust...one nation under God....I swear to God ...while they wander around totally lost, must suck.


Then there's this childish bullshit....well can ya prove it huh huh huh huh.....hahahaha!!!!!!!!! Prove you love someone, prove your hungry, prove your jealous, prove your sad/glad/mad......can't do it.

What's your religion

[Koolaid_Man]

lets adress one by one....



If one is All-Loving, they would not sentence anybody to an infinite punishment for a finite crime. In fact, if one was All-Loving, All-Powerful, and All-Knowing, they wouldn't allow somebody to rape and murder hundreds of little girls in the first place.

The infinte punishment is death...not torture and suffering....since you didn't create yourself it's not your call...tbh just like you tell your kids what they can and cannot do....simple concept....pain and suffering is part of life in the interim according to the bible...God allowing bad things to happen is teaching us a lesson for the life he has planned in the future..I said it earlier life on earth in my view is a pilot...he's preparing the universe for what will be filled with life and planets and the suffering here on earth will be a testament to his rule of law...i simple cannot question a super intellect...the fact that he even gives you the ability to question him as a human is incredible...


"BUT MAH FREE WILL!," you idiotically cry. But what about the free will of all the little girls that is taken away by the murderer? And what about God violating peoples' free will all through out the Bible? And doesn't that excuse about free will justify human beings not helping each other? Oh! Sorry, I forgot that Christians hold their God--somebody who is better than we are in every way, according to them--to lower standards than humans. Funny how that works out.

answered above

[Avante]

1.) What contradiction?
2.) You still haven't addressed my point about hell.




And you know this how? What evidence are you using to support your claim?

Watching all those down and outers change things around once they found God. Watching old folks content knowing their loved ones are up in Heaven. Watching little kids in Sunday school learning about God. Listening to 100 member strong gospel groups.


Little man I really do pity you.


When you are laying there dying and nobody is praying for your sorry ass maybe then it you.

[Blake]

What's your religion

[redzero]

lets adress one by one....




The infinte punishment is death...not torture and suffering....since you didn't create yourself it's not your call...tbh just like you tell your kids what they can and cannot do....simple concept....pain and suffering is part of life in the interim according to the bible...God allowing bad things to happen is teaching us a lesson for the life he has planned in the future..I said it earlier life on earth in my view is a pilot...he's preparing the universe for what will be filled with life and planets and the suffering here on earth will be a testament to his rule of law...i simple cannot question a super intellect...the fact that he even gives you the ability to question him as a human is incredible...



answered above

You didn't answer shit. You made baseless assertions and fell back on the "God works in mysterious ways" cop out. How is God letting murder take place teaching anybody a lesson? What lesson are the little girls being murdered in Creepn's scenario being taught? And why didn't God let the Jewish slaves in Egypt just stay in captivity (which didn't actually happen, by the way)? You have no reason to believe in this illogical bullshit, and instead of acknowledging it, you hide behind faith.

[Avante]

I don't have a religion.

[redzero]

Watching all those down and outers change things around once they found God. Watching old folks content knowing they loved ones are up in Heaven. Watching little kids in Sunday school learning about God. Listening to 100 member strong gospel groups.

And if they didn't turn things around, would that be proof that God doesn't exist?

You theists love to have it both ways:
-If something good happens, praise be to God!
-If something bad happens, well, you just can't question God!

God gets all of the credit and none of the blame. God helping Trill in his bullshit anecdote is proof that he exists. But if God didn't help Trill, would that be proof that God doesn't exist?

God didn't help anybody in Sandy Hook. God didn't help anybody in Aurora. God didn't help anybody when that tornado ravaged Oklahoma. God didn't help anybody during 9/11. God didn't help anybody during any genocides. God didn't prevent WWI and WWII. God hasn't cured AIDS yet. God hasn't done anything. You just attribute the good to God and the bad to something else. That's all there is to it.

[Avante]

And if they didn't turn things around, would that be proof that God doesn't exist?

You theists love to have it both ways:
-If something good happens, praise be to God!
-If something bad happens, well, you just can't question God!

God gets all of the credit and none of the blame. God helping Trill in his bullshit anecdote is proof that he exists. But if God didn't help Trill, would that be proof that God doesn't exist?

God didn't help anybody in Sandy Hook. God didn't help anybody in Aurora. God didn't help anybody when that tornado ravaged Oklahoma. God didn't help anybody during 9/11. God didn't help anybody during any genocides. God didn't prevent WWI and WWII. God hasn't cured AIDS yet. God hasn't done anything. You just attribute the good to God and the bad to something else. That's all there is to it.

I feel sorry for ya little fella.

[Blake]

I don't have a religion.

So you're following around a God you made up.

You're so smart!

[Koolaid_Man]

You didn't answer shit. You made baseless assertions and fell back on the "God works in mysterious ways" cop out. How is God letting murder take place teaching anybody a lesson? What lesson are the little girls being murdered in Creepn's scenario being taught? And why didn't God let the Jewish slaves in Egypt just stay in captivity (which didn't actually happen, by the way)? You have no reason to believe in this illogical bullshit, and instead of acknowledging it, you hide behind faith.

he allows it for a very short period of time...we've (humans) only been in existence like 6 or 7 thousand yrs...your fatal flaw is thinking that God's timescale translates to something that should be logical for you (something he created) to understand. Imagine a deity that has existed for eternity (always existed) and compare that to 7 thousand yrs....your brain simply cannot compute it...while it may hurt I can accept it because according to what he created in Adam and Eve he gave them the ability to dictate the fate of humanity..they chose and God altered his plan by sending Jesus as the savoir...if he let Jesus suffer what makes you think we won't....and Jesus went healing everyone he could while on earth....God has a plan and it's very logical to me even though I'm going to suffer and die just like the next guy...I don't hide behind religion..one of the smartest men to ever live said unequivocally God exists, he's just not a personal God to us at the moment...

[redzero]

I feel sorry for ya little fella.

You already posted that. I get that you are too pathetic to have a reason to go on living without an invisible sky daddy. Sorry that I don't need to believe in fairy tales to make myself feel happy. Sorry that I view the world as it is.

[silverblk mystix]

So you're following around a God you made up.

You're so smart!

And you are arguing over a word- and worse - you are convinced your stance is superior to someone's elses stance over something neither of you has ever seen or even knows what it is.

Very smart!

[Big Empty]

thats a really good question. I also wonder why it hasnt evolutionized into the opposite. why do good things happen to good people.

[redzero]

he allows it for a very short period of time...

Doesn't matter. He shouldn't have allowed it at all.


we've (humans) only been in existence like 6 or 7 thousand yrs...

You're off on your math by hundreds of thousands of years.


your fatal flaw is thinking that God's timescale translates to something that should be logical for you (something he created) to understand.

Yawn. Yet another argument that God doesn't have to make any kind of sense. Yet another attempt to throw away logic and reasoning to embrace stupidity.


Imagine a deity that has existed for eternity (always existed) and compare that to 7 thousand yrs....your brain simply cannot compute it...while it may hurt I can accept it because according to what he created in Adam and Eve he gave them the ability to dictate the fate of humanity..they chose and God altered his plan by sending Jesus as the savoir...

:lol "We can't understand why God does what he does, but here is an explanation for why God does what he does."


if he let Jesus suffer what makes you think we won't....

He let Jesus suffer for no reason, and he is letting humanity suffer for no reason.


God has a plan and it's very logical to me even though I'm going to suffer and die just like the next guy...

If it's very logical, stop hiding behind "God works in mysterious ways," and give me a logical explanation for God's illogical actions.


I don't hide behind religion..one of the smartest men to ever live said unequivocally God exists, he's just not a personal God to us at the moment...

And now you are using appeals to authority. Smart people can believe in dumb things for dumb reasons. Whether or not somebody who is intelligent believes in something has no bearing on whether that thing is true or not.

[Koolaid_Man]

And if they didn't turn things around, would that be proof that God doesn't exist?

You theists love to have it both ways:
-If something good happens, praise be to God!
-If something bad happens, well, you just can't question God!

God gets all of the credit and none of the blame. God helping Trill in his bullshit anecdote is proof that he exists. But if God didn't help Trill, would that be proof that God doesn't exist?

God didn't help anybody in Sandy Hook. God didn't help anybody in Aurora. God didn't help anybody when that tornado ravaged Oklahoma. God didn't help anybody during 9/11. God didn't help anybody during any genocides. God didn't prevent WWI and WWII. God hasn't cured AIDS yet. God hasn't done anything. You just attribute the good to God and the bad to something else. That's all there is to it.

^ God didnt help Jesus either when he was being tortured on that cross...he sent Jesus to earth to suffer and die for us...even while Jesus was praying to him...he still let him suffer and then he resurrected him and elevated him to heaven...I told you the suffering argument is all atheists have...I trust that a spirit that created the universe and then decided to share life with humans has to have a real good reason for it....I cannot question that type of being...no more than I can look at the sun he created without being blinded or touch an electrical current without getting fryed....

[redzero]

^ God didnt help Jesus either when he was being tortured on that cross...he sent Jesus to earth to suffer and die for us...

...for no reason.


even while Jesus was praying to him...he still let him suffer and then he resurrected him and elevated him to heaven...

...for no reason.


I told you the suffering argument is all atheists have...

No, we also have the facts that your religion has no good evidence supporting it, makes no sense, and is inherently contradictory...


I trust that a spirit that created the universe and then decided to share life with humans has to have a real good reason for it....

...and all you have is a desire for your irrational beliefs to be true...


I cannot question that type of being...no more than I can look at the sun he created without being blinded or touch an electrical current without getting fryed....

...and you do not care about what is actually true. You just shut your brain off when confronted with the nonsense in Christianity.

[Big Empty]

damn koolaide man, you have all the answer to women issue and religous lol

[Koolaid_Man]

If it's very logical, stop hiding behind "God works in mysterious ways," and give me a logical explanation for God's illogical actions.


maybe as our creator he knows how we're wired...and allows the suffering to prove a point!...Why is God creating the universe over time instead of snapping his fingers and willing it into existence...I'm not God so all I can do is reason why...but my understanding is that suffering is needed to show that man cannot live without God's guidance and when we try this chaos is a result...if he doesn't allow it people like you will start to question the fairness of his laws even without the existence of pain and suffering...therefore we need to see it for ourselves...and when it has been accomplished to his satisfaction when he decides to end the suffering he will...personally I think it's a brilliant plan but you'd have to put yourself in God's position to understand...I just don't think you have the intellectual capacity to look at this from a 50,000 ft view...it takes real perception to try and grasp it....but that's it...there's your answer

[Blake]

And you are arguing over a word- and worse - you are convinced your stance is superior to someone's elses stance over something neither of you has ever seen or even knows what it is.

Very smart!

I'm not arguing anything. If you want to believe in something you made up, go for it.

[redzero]

maybe as our creator he knows how we're wired...and allows the suffering to prove a point!...Why is God creating the universe over time instead of snapping his fingers and willing it into existence...I'm not God so all I can do is reason why...but my understanding is that suffering is needed to show that man cannot live without God's guidance and when we try this chaos is a result...if he doesn't allow it people like you will start to question the fairness of his laws even without the existence of pain and suffering...therefore we need to see it for ourselves...and when it has been accomplished to his satisfaction when he decides to end the suffering he will...personally I think it's a brilliant plan but you'd have to put yourself in God's position to understand...I just don't think you have the intellectual capacity to look at this from a 50,000 ft view...it takes real perception to try and grasp it....but that's it...there's your answer

Again, you aren't offering an answer. You are offering maybes and what ifs, then you shrug and say that we just aren't capable of understanding God. Pick a lane and stick with it. If God is incomprehensible, don't try to find reasons for his actions. If God is not incomprehensible, stop using the "mysterious ways" copout.

If God is All-Loving, All-Knowing, and All-Powerful, he would be able to get his message out without the suffering and death of billions of people.

[silverblk mystix]

I'm not arguing anything. If you want to believe in something you made up, go for it.

Well, you are acting superior to others who state their beliefs whatever they may be when your BELIEF is no better or superior. On top of that arrogance you insult them and act rudely when responding or posting anything. Sounds like you enjoy being angry and abusive to everyone everyday and never tire of it.

Smart.

[Koolaid_Man]

Again, you aren't offering an answer. You are offering maybes and what ifs, then you shrug and say that we just aren't capable of understanding God. Pick a lane and stick with it. If God is incomprehensible, don't try to find reasons for his actions. If God is not incomprehensible, stop using the "mysterious ways" copout.

If God is All-Loving, All-Knowing, and All-Powerful, he would be able to get his message out without the suffering and death of billions of people.

since it's obvious that God is all loving, powerful, and knowing....the better question for you is not If? but rather why...and yes I've clearly and logically answerd your question but because your mad at God you cannot see that it's been answered....:lol

[Avante]

So you're following around a God you made up.

You're so smart!

Pay attention asswipe, I grew up with God in my home. I never had to follow anything because He was always there. Dude if you got paid for being wrong you could retire.

I don't know who is dumber you or redpunk.

[redzero]

since it's obvious that God is all loving, powerful, and knowing....

Uh...no it isn't. How many more circular arguments will I get from theists in this thread.


the better question for you is not If? but rather why...and yes I've clearly and logically answerd your question but because your mad at God you cannot see that it's been answered....:lol

:lol at you using the "you're just mad at God" and "I already answered you with my non-answers" excuses. :lol So predictable. Theists are so intellectually lazy when they defend their stupid beliefs, that it's laughable. In almost every facet of life, they'll be just as critical about unsupported, ridiculous claims as I am towards theism, but when it comes to their God, they throw all critical thinking skills out the window.

[Koolaid_Man]

Uh...no it isn't. How many more circular arguments will I get from theists in this thread.



:lol at you using the "you're just mad at God" and "I already answered you with my non-answers" excuses. :lol So predictable. Theists are so intellectually lazy when they defend their stupid beliefs, that it's laughable. In almost every facet of life, they'll be just as critical about unsupported, ridiculous claims as I am towards theism, but when it comes to their God, they throw all critical thinking skills out the window.

you haven't proven a thing...your blinded by your own rage at God....and trying to pass it off as some logical conclusion...my explanation is a solid answer and logical answer...I don't expect and a man who's angrey with God to accept it...but rather your constant hysterical behavior and claims of "winning an argument" when you haven't is a just a typical selling ploy used by atheists...it's called theatrics :lol

[Blake]

Well, you are acting superior to others who state their beliefs whatever they may be when your BELIEF is no better or superior. On top of that arrogance you insult them and act rudely when responding or posting anything. Sounds like you enjoy being angry and abusive to everyone everyday and never tire of it.

Smart.

I insult people that pass off bull shit as fact, like you just did in this very thread.

Dumb.

[Blake]

Pay attention asswipe, I grew up with God in my home. I never had to follow anything because He was always there. Dude if you got paid for being wrong you could retire.

I don't know who is dumber you or redpunk.

That makes no sense at all.

Describe the God you believe in. Where did you get him from?

[Avante]

Uh...no it isn't. How many more circular arguments will I get from theists in this thread.



:lol at you using the "you're just mad at God" and "I already answered you with my non-answers" excuses. :lol So predictable. Theists are so intellectually lazy when they defend their stupid beliefs, that it's laughable. In almost every facet of life, they'll be just as critical about unsupported, ridiculous claims as I am towards theism, but when it comes to their God, they throw all critical thinking skills out the window.

You do realize you're getting your ass kicked....right?

[Avante]

That makes no sense at all.

Describe the God you believe in. Where did you get him from?

Let me slow it down for then idiot.

I grew up with God in my family. Ya with me? I saw all those like my family far more happier than those without God in theirs, yep sorta like you. I've noticed that those who do believe in God are far better equipped to handle the trials and tribulations of this life, look at you as a perfect example, no God and totally fucked.

Ya with me?

[redzero]

you haven't proven a thing...

Besides that being untrue, the theist is the only one with the burden of proof here.


your blinded by your own rage at God....

An ad hominem because you have nothing else.


and trying to pass it off as some logical conclusion...

I am not trying to pass off anything. Based on the attributes of your God and the reality that we live in, the only conclusion is that your God doesn't exist.


my explanation is a solid answer and logical answer...I don't expect and a man who's angrey with God to accept it...but rather your constant hysterical behavior and claims of "winning an argument" when you haven't is a just a typical selling ploy used by atheists...it's called theatrics :lol

Yawn. More bullshit. Nothing is logical about your answer. Your God allegedly has the power to get his point across without human ssuffering. Your God allegedly wants there to be no suffering. Therefore, there is no reason for suffering.

[Blake]

Let me slow it down for then idiot.

I grew up with God in my family. Ya with me? I saw all those like my family far more happier than those without God in theirs, yep sorta like you. I've noticed that those who do believe in God are far better equipped to handle the trials and tribulations of this life, look at you as a perfect example, no God and totally fucked.

Ya with me?

You're not with me.

I'm not sure I can type this in a simpler way:

Describe (talk about the characteristics) of the God (the entity we can't see) you believe in.

Is it Bible God or not?

[silverblk mystix]

I insult people that pass off bull shit as fact, like you just did in this very thread.

Dumb.


Which makes you pretty misguided - since your bullshit is no better than anyone else's bs.

You end up just coming off as an angry asshole who thinks they are somehow superior to others all while revealing what an unhappy idiot you are.

That is idiocy personified.

[Blake]

Which makes you pretty misguided - since your bullshit is no better than anyone else's bs.

You end up just coming off as an angry asshole who thinks they are somehow superior to others all while revealing what an unhappy idiot you are.

That is idiocy personified.

I'm not spouting bull shit at all, moron. I don't have a belief system other than what I can see in front of me.

If you want to claim there is something more, but you can't prove it, I can call bullshit and there's not a damn thing you can do but take it and cry that I'm being mean.

And the best part is that you can't even live up to your own "enlightened" standards of happy living.

You are easily the most miserable, sensitive, asshurt poster on this board. Avante is a close second.

[Avante]

You're not with me.

I'm not sure I can type this in a simpler way:

Describe (talk about the characteristics) of the God (the entity we can't see) you believe in.

Is it Bible God or not?

At first He was then as time went on and I started reading more about mythology. I starting seeing things differently. I came away thinking that the God of the Bible was simply Hebrew mythology that for some reason or another we didn't dump off being just more mythology. I can't buy anyone kicking ass on a 1000 soldiers with just the jawbone of an ass or a cannon for that matter, what army was that the stupid forces? Nobody thought...let's rush him? What no spears? What were numbers 998 999 and 1000 thinking looking at a pile of 997 dead bodies, what...."I got this"...haha!!!!!

There is something out there responsible for all this, what nobody knows.

[silverblk mystix]

I'm not spouting bull shit at all, moron. I don't have a belief system other than what I can see in front of me.

Unfortunately for all of us - what you can see in front of you is nothing. Why? Because there are layers and layers of conditioning and programming which have rendered you blind. So , how fitting that you think this "reality" you can see in front of you- is actually blindness.

If you want to claim there is something more, but you can't prove it, I can call bullshit and there's not a damn thing you can do but take it and cry that I'm being mean.

I haven't claimed anything but self evident truths.

And the best part is that you can't even live up to your own "enlightened" standards of happy living.


Since I didn't ever claim anything - there is nothing to live up to - or down to.

You are easily the most miserable, sensitive, asshurt poster on this board. Avante is a close second.


Well, funny how you just described yourself and your little e-gang who do nothing but ankle-bite and chase people around just because you are miserable pricks.


Not to mention a certified CUCK!


:lmao

[Blake]

Well, funny how you just described yourself and your little e-gang who do nothing but ankle-bite and chase people around just because you are miserable pricks.


Not to mention a certified CUCK!


:lmao




Liar.

Your claim is that we're asleep. You can't prove it.

You're provably stupid.

[silverblk mystix]

Liar.

Your claim is that we're asleep. You can't prove it.

You're provably stupid.

Why would I have to prove what is self-evident?

I don't. The first part of waking up is realizing and admitting that you are asleep. Unfortunately you are like the man in the dream who has no idea it is a dream - he thinks it is reality.

Someday - you might be forced to wake up - maybe by suffering - maybe by tragedy - then you might make an effort to awaken from your slumber - only then may you begin to see how asleep you've been. Most people never wake up and then die without ever waking. This is the tragedy of humans. This is the questions you should be grappling with -

Not this idiocy of "who is god?" "what is god?" "prove your god exists"


I've just given you nothing but airtight impenetrable truth - and you will not even sense it or allow it to reach you - you will see what is in front of you - which is conditioned blindness and you will respond to that conditioning and refuse to allow truth to enter your layers upon layers of blindness.

Tragedy.

[Blake]

There is something out there responsible for all this, what nobody knows.

So you follow something you know nothing about.

....but you pity others...

Smart!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

a priori has been debunked for a long long time. Go read some Hume and get back to me. this kindergarten level of epistemology is just sad.

[Blake]

Why would I have to prove what is self-evident?

I don't. The first part of waking up is realizing and admitting that you are asleep. Unfortunately you are like the man in the dream who has no idea it is a dream - he thinks it is reality.

Someday - you might be forced to wake up - maybe by suffering - maybe by tragedy - then you might make an effort to awaken from your slumber - only then may you begin to see how asleep you've been. Most people never wake up and then die without ever waking. This is the tragedy of humans. This is the questions you should be grappling with -

Not this idiocy of "who is god?" "what is god?" "prove your god exists"


I've just given you nothing but airtight impenetrable truth - and you will not even sense it or allow it to reach you - you will see what is in front of you - which is conditioned blindness and you will respond to that conditioning and refuse to allow truth to enter your layers upon layers of blindness.

Tragedy.

If it was self evident, it would be evident to more people than just you.

You are the only one here spouting this nonsense.

[silverblk mystix]

If it was self evident, it would be evident to more people than just you.

You are the only one here spouting this nonsense.

just ponder on it


it might reach you someday

[Rogue]

bad things hone their personalities, give them fortitude and make the good people even better. Humans and other living things are all going towards the one same destination, so it doesn't matter how many good things or bad happen to you in your life time. the ending of every life will be a tragedy

[Blake]

just ponder on it


it might reach you someday

you're a condescending, unenlightened idiot that will soon reduce himself to name calling.

[Avante]

So you follow something you know nothing about.

....but you pity others...

Smart!

Yep, just one of the billions and billions and billions who did the exact same thing.


You know what % of American are atheists?

Here ya go midget, this is how many Americans agree with your dumb ass.

Short answer: 3%-5% of Americans are atheists.

[ChumpDumper]

Hey Avante, why did God allow maalox to destroy you in the other thread?

[ChumpDumper]

Why would I have to prove what is self-evident?No one ever had to prove you are the angriest, e-grudgiest poster on SpursTalk.

[TDMVPDPOY]

why is it good healthy people get struck down on some illness, even the common sickness they are very slow to recover from

while clowns who have abuse their body with hard drugs and shit, whether fkn junkies and shit, seems like their system can take any form of punishment and immune to common sickness....

[Blake]

Yep, just one of the billions and billions and billions who did the exact same thing.


You know what % of American are atheists?

Here ya go midget, this is how many Americans agree with your dumb ass.

Short answer: 3%-5% of Americans are atheists.



yeah, again, which God do you believe in?

You made it clear it's not Bible God, so describe every detail of the spirit that you believe guides you. Thanks.

[E20]

To test the believer.

[ALVAREZ6]

:lmao I'm glad I've moved on from these threads...don't miss them at all. redzero, save yourself while you can and just disregard :lol. I see that Blake still is making appearances.

[Blake]

Are you related to ALVAREZ5?

[cute_spursfan]

its called trial and tribulation :) even the lamb of god went thru tough times. god bless :D

[Blake]

its called trial and tribulation :) even the lamb of god went thru tough times. god bless :D

Bible God loves himself some pain and suffering