Report: Spurs Express Interest in Monta Ellis

[timvp]

The Bulls, Spurs, Nuggets and Suns also are among the teams who expressed interest in Ellis as the free-agent negotiating period began Monday at 12:01 a.m. ET, league sources said.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/ken-berger/22590559/sources-knicks-express-interest-in-monta-ellis

[SpursRock20]

One of Neal and Manu definitely gone if this happens. Probably Manu.

[Baam]

:lmao

[timvp]

As much as I favor Ellises, I pass ... since, well, he never does.

[elmanutres]

isn't he like inefficient or something like that? i think we got enough of those guys. (neal)

[RD2191]

Wouldn't him and Parker on the floor be a major defensive liability? Would he be a backup pg?

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

Top 5 player in the league. Monta Ellis have it all.

[spursparker9]

Monta Ellis is on the same level as D-Whistle. At least he himself think so.

[BatManu20]

He's not coming here. He would never accept coming off the bench either.

[TrainOfThought5]

HOLY FUCKING SHIT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

we could get iggy and aaron brooks and DOMINATE for what they gonna try and pay him

[Spursfanfromafar]

Ha ha ha ..

Monta Ellis.

[hommeaetage]

I wanna say lets get him just for the meltdowns I know for sure this board would be having after a Monta Ellis typical 6-20 FG
:rollin

[MeloHype]

I wish, he's on one of my favorite player

[Leetonidas]

Monta Ellis have it all

[Holden_Caulfield]

HOLY FUCKING SHIT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

we could get iggy and aaron brooks and DOMINATE for what they gonna try and pay him
lol wut. gtfo

[Floyd Pacquiao]

lol A ball stoping, 3 point chucking, no defense playing undersized 2 guard.

[Baam]

If they get Ellis who can run the point, do they start him and go with a 3 guards rotation of TP Ellis Manu and trade Green?

[Splits]

He just turned down a 3 year / $36m deal from the Bucks. How exactly do we afford him?

[Nathan89]

:bang

Over Tyreke who has the skill to be Tony's backup and the size to play sg right by him.

[blkroadrunners]

lol A ball stoping, 3 point chucking, no defense playing undersized 2 guard.

So pretty much a rich man's Gary Neal..

[manufan10]

He just turned down a 3 year / $36m deal from the Bucks. How exactly do we afford him?

Rumor is he's willing to take a pay cut to play for a championship contender.

[SpursRock20]

Rumor is he's willing to take a pay cut to play for a championship contender.
I've heard that before. Let's see how this ends....

[ElNono]

smells like due diligence, tbh...

[tesseractive]

I've heard that before. Let's see how this ends....
All the more reason to talk to him and see whether he's serious.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

So pretty much a rich man's Gary Neal..Neal on crack as another poster said.

[siraulo23]

This guy is a no no unless acquired dirt cheap

[Robz4000]

No chance this is legitimate.

[marinoman]

when the spurs called monta chucked his cellphone at the basket........and missed

[Baam]

People who don't believe it don't understand Pop

[spurraider21]

worst fit ever. wants a fat contract, is inefficient and is a defensive liability. can't believe they'd have interest in him, without at least having interest in tyreke, who is a much better fit talent wise

[stephen jackson]

worst fit ever. wants a fat contract, is inefficient and is a defensive liability. can't believe they'd have interest in him, without at least having interest in tyreke, who is a much better fit talent wise

obviously doesnt want a fat contract he turned down two lucrative contracts already.....
ty will get way more money than monta....

[tesseractive]

If they get Ellis who can run the point, do they start him and go with a 3 guards rotation of TP Ellis Manu and trade Green?
Start Tony, Ellis, and Kawhi, use Danny as 6th man, and play Manu and CoJo or Nando limited minutes. Manu obviously doesn't have a lot left in the tank, so he needs fewer minutes than he had this year.

Starting Danny and bringing Ellis off the bench like Manu would be another option.

[dallasmaverickslose]

Ugh please no

[Baam]

worst fit ever. wants a fat contract, is inefficient and is a defensive liability. can't believe they'd have interest in him, without at least having interest in tyreke, who is a much better fit talent wise

Tyreke is a RFA so you'd have to pay even more

[Splits]

when the spurs called monta chucked his cellphone at the basket........and missed

:lol from which part of the court?

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/37/files/2013/03/Monta-Ellis-Season.jpeg

[manufan10]

Monta made 94 3's during the regular season.

Green made 55 3's during the playoffs.

:lol

[Floyd Pacquiao]

If this goes down it just proves that Pop really does love undersized chucking 2 guards that play shit defense

[Russo21]

Ellis would be great. We certaintly wouldn't go through offensive droughts with him on the team.

[baseline bum]

Man I hope not.

[Russo21]

Timvp can you change your picture of Tim to something else? It's too sad, just too sad mate.:(

[Baam]

3zCGmhkSxNM

We're gonna need a Rocket killer if they get Dwight tbh.

[tesseractive]

:lol from which part of the court?

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/37/files/2013/03/Monta-Ellis-Season.jpeg
If you could get him more open shots and convince him not to take a bunch of those he can't make, you'd have a hell of a player, though.

[Splits]

Green made 55 3's during the playoffs.


And Manu had 55 turnovers in the playoffs :depressed

[dylankerouac]

If you could get him more open shots and convince him not to take a bunch of those he can't make, you'd have a hell of a player, though.

This. I hope the Spurs have a good negotiator.

Just ran into this on Google to confirm.

http://www.projectspurs.com/2013-articles/june/could-spurs-make-a-run-at-monta-ellis.html

[BatManu20]

Am I seeing this right? Monta Ellis shot 29% from 3 last season on 94-328 shooting..? That is terrible. And he's a 31% career 3-point shooter. Nobody deserves $11 million per with those %'s..

[Juggity]

good lord no.

I'm going to believe this is just Monta's agent trying to prop up his client's value by attaching his name to a successful franchise

[ElNono]

And Manu had 55 turnovers in the playoffs :depressed

And Tony had 53... happens when you're the ballhandler, tbh

[FkLA]

Wouldnt be against it after thinking about it some. I still think people underestimate the Spurs culture, players that are known for being cancerous or chuckers on other teams know when they come to SA that shit wont fly. IIRC alot of people felt the same way about TJ Ford a couple years ago and he came in and gave us solid minutes until BDiddy broke his spine. If he came here with an understanding between him and Pop that he needs to tone down on the chucking hed be an elite 6th man imo.

[stephen jackson]

And Tony had 53... happens when you're the ballhandler, tbhmanu prolly had half the minutes tony logged too tbh

[Splits]

And Tony had 53... happens when you're the ballhandler, tbh

TP played 200 more minutes, the equivalent of 4+ games, was the primary ball handler, and had 41 more assists. Smh

[ElNono]

TP played 200 more minutes, the equivalent of 4+ games, was the primary ball handler, and had 41 more assists. Smh

You're still missing the point. Ballhandlers will have a lot of turnovers, because they're the ones that handle the ball.

FWIW, Tony has done even worse: 66 TOs in 06-07 and 71 TOs in 04-05... yet we still won the 'ship both times.

[Splits]

You're still missing the point. Ballhandlers will have a lot of turnovers, because they're the ones that handle the ball.


No, there's this thing called ratios. There's also the fact that Manu had 8 turnover in G6, and 4 in the fourth quarter alone in G7! TP had 2 combined in those games.

[milkyway21]

ball dominant (-)
never averaged more than six assists per game
and launched more shots than any player other than Kobe Bryant, Russell Westbrook and Carmelo Anthony last season (-)

a classic volume jump shooter, he fires up a bunch and a few actually go in (28% 3ptr 2012-13 season) (-)

locker room virus (-)

if he'll play for the Spurs Duncan, Green & Kawhi will ave 5 APG

because he will be competing with TP for the ball :lol



Let him go to Sacramento

[Sean Cagney]

He will not be here folks so do not worry!

[DontStopBelieving]

I'd be down for this.. We need another playmaker off the bench

[dallasmaverickslose]

I do not like this at all.

[SpursSerb]

Evans>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Eliis

[DontStopBelieving]

I'd rather have JR Smith though

[ElNono]

No, there's this thing called ratios.

Of course... Manu posted a 1.91 AST/TO ratio... comparable to the likes of George Hill (1.93), Mario Chalmers (1.87), Dwayne Wade (1.81), etc.

Monta Ellis definitely not on that list though :lol

[chapnis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7G9yS2-x5sA

[DesignatedT]

If this actually did mean anything..... Which it doesn't.
If the spurs actually sign him.... Which they won't.

Than this would obviously be the first of many moves they plan to make this summer. It's not +/- this player and that player.



Just use your brain for once.

[Chinook]

I'd rather trade for DeRozan than sign Ellis. At least DeRozan has the size and athleticism to be come a complete player.

[ElNono]

I'd rather trade for DeRozan than sign Ellis. At least DeRozan has the size and athleticism to be come a complete player.

Is he available? I would think DeRozan would command more money?

[Baam]

I'd rather trade for DeRozan than sign Ellis. At least DeRozan has the size and athleticism to be come a complete player.

He can't shoot or run the point tho.

The idea is growing on me, rather spend 10M on Ellis than on Splitter.

[Chinook]

Is he available? I would think DeRozan would command more money?

DeRozan just inked a $38M/4 extension last year. So that's his contract ($9.5 Million each year). The Raptors just tried to trade him to the Clippers, and they have Terrence Ross, so he's definitely obtainable.

[tesseractive]

DeRozan just inked a $38M/4 extension last year. So that's his contract ($9.5 Million each year). The Raptors just tried to trade him to the Clippers, and they have Terrence Ross, so he's definitely obtainable.
Are they just trying to get out from under his salary, or would they be looking for assets in return?

[Chinook]

He can't shoot or run the point tho.

The idea is growing on me, rather spend 10M on Ellis than on Splitter.

He can shoot from mid-range, but he's not good from three at all. The fact that he can shoot 40 percent from 16-23 feet gives me hope that he can get more consistent from long range. He's a chucker in the Rudy Gay mold, but with hard work, he could probably become a more-efficient player.

[Chinook]

Are they just trying to get out from under his salary, or would they be looking for assets in return?

They tried to trade him for Eric Bledsoe (and still might succeed in that). I actually think they'd love Bonner and Joseph and some picks for him. I think their new GM knows that DeRozan and Gay can't coexist.

[ElNono]

DeRozan just inked a $38M/4 extension last year. So that's his contract ($9.5 Million each year). The Raptors just tried to trade him to the Clippers, and they have Terrence Ross, so he's definitely obtainable.

What are the Raptors doing? :lol

He's only 23...

[MaNu4Tres]

I'd rather trade for DeRozan than sign Ellis. At least DeRozan has the size and athleticism to be come a complete player.

Love this. Agreed. Unlike Ellis or Gay, DeRozan is a solid defender as well.

[spursince#99]

Monta Ellis would thrive here in San Antonio. With a little help from Chip he could improve from the 3 and drastically improve our bench. You guys who disagree are stupid.

[T Park]

I want zilch to do with that guy on this team...

[objective]

why trade for DeRozan? 9.5 million to back-up Kawhi while Green starts and Manu backs up the SG?

[Chinook]

What are the Raptors doing? :lol

He's only 23...

He's the two-guard version of Rudy Gay. He's an even worse three-point shooter than Ellis (28 percent last season), and he's not much better from two (44 percent). He's not like Evans who has put up great stats that people have just failed to notice. He'd need a lot of coaching to reach his potential, but he's getting paid like he's already there. I also have no idea about his attitude.

But as you said, he's only 23, and he's a 6-7 shooting-guard. With good coaching, he would hopefully get a good shot selection. He has great physical tools as well. Since I consider the Spurs' cap space essentially house money, I wouldn't mind gambling a bit here. If he can get coached to be a plus defender, he and Leonard could be incredible together for years to come.

[Chinook]

why trade for DeRozan? 9.5 million to back-up Kawhi while Green starts and Manu backs up the SG?

Why not? If the Spurs stay over the cap, it won't be like there's any money wasted.

[objective]

re: Raptors and DeRozan, I would guess it's because he's not Ujiri's guy. The Raptors have also been rumored to possibly use the stretch provision on Fields. Could be that Ujiri is trying to clear the decks of Colangelo's mistakes sooner rather than later.

[ElNono]

He's the two-guard version of Rudy Gay. He's an even worse three-point shooter than Ellis (28 percent last season), and he's not much better from two (44 percent). He's not like Evans who has put up great stats that people have just failed to notice. He'd need a lot of coaching to reach his potential, but he's getting paid like he's already there. I also have no idea about his attitude.

But as you said, he's only 23, and he's a 6-7 shooting-guard. With good coaching, he would hopefully get a good shot selection. He has great physical tools as well. Since I consider the Spurs' cap space essentially house money, I wouldn't mind gambling a bit here. If he can get coached to be a plus defender, he and Leonard could be incredible together for years to come.

I always thought he looked like a humble, coachable kid, and pretty far from Rudy Gay. To be frank I haven't seen many Raptors games this season, so I don't know if that changed. He has length and I recall him being able to drive and get to the basket.

[objective]

Why not? If the Spurs stay over the cap, it won't be like there's any money wasted.

Spurs wise, it's a lot of money for a limited use back-up.

Raptors wise, there's nothing the Spurs have they would want. The only rumor for a DeRozan trade I've seen is to acquire Bledsoe. Bledsoe is worth something and has been a desirable commodity. What could the Spurs give up? Bonner? Not likely, Bonner looks like he's untouchable.

[Chinook]

Spurs wise, it's a lot of money for a limited use back-up.

Raptors wise, there's nothing the Spurs have they would want. The only rumor for a DeRozan trade I've seen is to acquire Bledsoe. Bledsoe is worth something and has been a desirable commodity. What could the Spurs give up? Bonner? Not likely, Bonner looks like he's untouchable.

I agree it's a long-shot. Hell, any outside player seems like a long-shot to come to the Spurs. I would really just rather get a player with upside and length than get Ellis who's aging, physically limited and probably set in his habits.

I don't think Bonner and Joseph are enough to get DeRozan, but at the same time, if Bonner does end up as part of a trade like this, then I think we can all agree that the team keeping him around was a good thing. They wouldn't be able to make a trade like this with just their cap space.

[spursince#99]

I agree it's a long-shot. Hell, any outside player seems like a long-shot to come to the Spurs. I would really just rather get a player with upside and length than get Ellis who's aging, physically limited and probably set in his habits.

I don't think Bonner and Joseph are enough to get DeRozan, but at the same time, if Bonner does end up as part of a trade like this, then I think we can all agree that the team keeping him around was a good thing. They wouldn't be able to make a trade like this with just their cap space.


How is he physically limited?

[Chinook]

How is he physically limited?

Too short to be a real two. Too slow to be an real one. DeRozan can play two positions well; Ellis can play any well.

[tesseractive]

Unlike Ellis or Gay, DeRozan is a solid defender as well.

Is he? Zach Lowe had this to say as of November:


He’s a minus defender both on the ball (opponents shot better than 50 percent on isolation attempts last season, according to Synergy Sports) and not a particularly attentive helper off it.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/41780/stray-shots-the-demar-derozan-bad-contract-extension-edition

[Chinook]

I always thought he looked like a humble, coachable kid, and pretty far from Rudy Gay. To be frank I haven't seen many Raptors games this season, so I don't know if that changed. He has length and I recall him being able to drive and get to the basket.

Here are some highlights from this season:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf2rasPx4kw

His game is weird. He pretty much can hit a shot from one step inside the arch pretty consistently. So he should be a better three-point shooter than he is. He can certainly drive, but I noticed most of his points in the paint come from fouls. That's a good and bad thing. He didn't shoot well from 10-15 feet, so he's not much of a step-back shooter. I don't see why that's a problem. He also posted up a few times in the videos I've watched tonight. That'a a great skill for a taller-than-average guard to have. All in all, he has the pieces of a really good game. He just needs to put them together.

[spursince#99]

Too short to be a real two. Too slow to be an real one. DeRozan can play two positions well; Ellis can play any well.


Monta Ellis is nowhere near slow. He's arguably faster than Tony. If you don't want him on the team just say so. Don't make up false accusations. :lol

[objective]

I agree it's a long-shot. Hell, any outside player seems like a long-shot to come to the Spurs. I would really just rather get a player with upside and length than get Ellis who's aging, physically limited and probably set in his habits.

I don't think Bonner and Joseph are enough to get DeRozan, but at the same time, if Bonner does end up as part of a trade like this, then I think we can all agree that the team keeping him around was a good thing. They wouldn't be able to make a trade like this with just their cap space.

I don't want Ellis either, but DD seems like one of those longshots that is so long I can't imagine the Spurs even trying/wanting.

Re: Bonner, I don't see him being traded. His trade value as an expiring was highest when only 1 million guaranteed. I don't see any circumstance when I would ever agree that keeping Bonner around was a good thing. The Spurs untouchable list goes in order: Duncan, Bonner, Leonard, Parker.

[Chinook]

Monta Ellis is nowhere near slow. He's arguably faster than Tony. If you don't want him on the team just say so. Don't make up false accusations. :lol

I mean defensively. He gets blown by a lot. Straight-line speed is massively overrated in basketball. And I doubt he's faster than Parker. Tony is arguably the fastest player with the ball in the game.

[objective]

Too short to be a real two. Too slow to be an real one. DeRozan can play two positions well; Ellis can play any well.

Ellis has also torn his knee up in the past. The older he gets, that might come into play.

[Chinook]

I don't want Ellis either, but DD seems like one of those longshots that is so long I can't imagine the Spurs even trying/wanting.

Re: Bonner, I don't see him being traded. His trade value as an expiring was highest when only 1 million guaranteed. I don't see any circumstance when I would ever agree that keeping Bonner around was a good thing. The Spurs untouchable list goes in order: Duncan, Bonner, Leonard, Parker.

There's definitely no way to argue that Bonner is valuable to the organization. I think they very well may not only keep him, but actually re-sign him next off-season. But while his value as an expiring to other teams may have been highest on draft night, his usefulness to the Spurs may still get higher. It really depends on Ginobili. If Manu keeps the Spurs over the cap, then Bonner's expiring is more useful to the Spurs than the $3 Million saved by waiving him. We'll have to see what happens as the off-season goes on. If they do re-sign Ginobili for more than $5 Million, then keeping Bonner's deal would be one of the only ways the team could improve.

[spursince#99]

I mean defensively. He gets blown by a lot. Straight-line speed is massively overrated in basketball. And I doubt he's faster than Parker. Tony is arguably the fastest player with the ball in the game.


I highly doubt him getting blown by in a game, if you've ever even seen him play, isn't because he's incapable of staying in front of his man. He is arguably the quickest AND fastest player in the league with the ball in his hands but due to so little league exposure, not many can vouch for that unless they're a fan of either him or the teams he's played for.

[Chinook]

I highly doubt him getting blown by in a game, if you've ever even seen him play, isn't because he's incapable of staying in front of his man. He is arguably the quickest AND fastest player in the league with the ball in his hands but due to so little league exposure, not many can vouch for that unless they're a fan of either him or the teams he's played for.

I can't say I'm a regular follower, but I've seen him play more than a handful of time over the last few years. I don't know why you think he's even close to the top in terms of speed or quickness. He'd be a much more efficient scorer if he were. I very well could be missing something here, but I don't think he could physically play the one at all. Even if he could, he doesn't seem to be able to do it skill-wise.

[spursince#99]

I can't say I'm a regular follower, but I've seen him play more than a handful of time over the last few years. I don't know why you think he's even close to the top in terms of speed or quickness. He'd be a much more efficient scorer if he were. I very well could be missing something here, but I don't think he could physically play the one at all. Even if he could, he doesn't seem to be able to do it skill-wise.


His quickness and speed is why he is where he is now as far as talent goes, and physically we're only asking him to be the sixth man which means you're saying you don't think he could run the one from the bench against opposing backup point guards?

[Chinook]

His quickness and speed is why he is where he is now as far as talent goes, and physically we're only asking him to be the sixth man which means you're saying you don't think he could run the one from the bench against opposing backup point guards?

Yep. Especially not in the Spurs' system. I don't think Eliis can run any offense, but he'd be especially hard-pressed to run the ball-sharing sets Pop likes.

[spursince#99]

Yep. Especially not in the Spurs' system. I don't think Eliis can run any offense, but he'd be especially hard-pressed to run the ball-sharing sets Pop likes.


Well I respectfully disagree. Lets not forget the teams he played for. :lol

[spursince#99]

Now that I think about it, I would rather have Jarrett Jack. He's a much more efficient scorer who would already come with the ability to hit the 3.

[Marrow]

:lol from which part of the court?

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/37/files/2013/03/Monta-Ellis-Season.jpeg

So much red...it's burning my retna

[Splits]

Now that I think about it, I would rather have Jarrett Jack. He's a much more efficient scorer who would already come with the ability to hit the 3.

Sames, and you can probably get him for closer to $8m instead of $12m per.

[spursince#99]

Sames, and you can probably get him for closer to $8m instead of $12m per.


Maybe even closer to 7.

[HI-FI]

An outside-the-box choice by the Spurs. I'm not against it, it's interesting.

[timvp]

I don't want Monta or his cousin DeMar. One dimensional ballhog gunners on big contracts ain't what the Spurs are about.

For the record, I'm calling BS on the supposed interest. This looks like a classic case of an agent floating the Spurs name in an attempt to widen interesting.

And, really, it's probably a good idea. "Damn, if the Spurs are interested, maybe we should take a closer look" will at the very least get Portland's attention, tbh.

[BatManu20]

I don't want Monta or his cousin DeMar. One dimensional ballhog gunners on big contracts ain't what the Spurs are about.

For the record, I'm calling BS on the supposed interest. This looks like a classic case of an agent floating the Spurs name in an attempt to widen interesting.

And, really, it's probably a good idea. "Damn, if the Spurs are interested, maybe we should take a closer look" will at the very least get Portland's attention, tbh.

Agreed. He's just not a Spurs type of player. And some team will vastly overpay for him I'm sure. Who's at the top of your wish list though? Or do you think we just stay pat and re-sign Splitter/Manu and maybe a cheap backup SF option?

[spursince#99]

I don't want Monta or his cousin DeMar. One dimensional ballhog gunners on big contracts ain't what the Spurs are about.

For the record, I'm calling BS on the supposed interest. This looks like a classic case of an agent floating the Spurs name in an attempt to widen interesting.

And, really, it's probably a good idea. "Damn, if the Spurs are interested, maybe we should take a closer look" will at the very least get Portland's attention, tbh.


Please change your avatar :depressed

[SpursSerb]

Being interested in Ellis when player like Evans is available for the same,probably smaller price,doesn't make sense at all.

[MeloHype]

Monta averages 6 apg and has a 45 fg% for his career, you guys are underrating him

[spursince#99]

Monta averages 6 apg and has a 45 fg% for his career, you guys are underrating him

[Marrow]

If the spurs sign Ellis I'll buy a moped and ride it off the nearest cliff

[ezau]

Well, at least RC knows that what we really need is a shot creator. Maybe they realized that Tyreke Evans is out of reach, so the FO makes a run at Ellis.

[ezau]

Being interested in Ellis when player like Evans is available for the same,probably smaller price,doesn't make sense at all.

Tyeke is an RFA while Monta is unrestricted.

[SpursSerb]

Tyeke is an RFA while Monta is unrestricted.

I know,but at the end Ellis might cost more than Evans.

[Marrow]

Monta averages 6 apg and has a 45 fg% for his career, you guys are underrating him

I'd still rather pay Gary Neal 2 mil per year than pay this perenial chucker 12...he's just not worth it

[MeloHype]

I'd still rather pay Gary Neal 2 mil per year than pay this perenial chucker 12...he's just not worth it
Monta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neal, dont ever compare them again.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Matters little since Tyreke has said he wants to stay in Sacramento, he just bought a new home, and has been at the practice facility every day working out with his team-mates.

[ezau]

I know,but at the end Ellis might cost more than Evans.

Evans would most likely stay in Sacto, he just bought a house there.

[jesterbobman]

I think it's BS. It fails to meet spurs criteria on player type.

[Marrow]

Monta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neal, dont ever compare them again.

You musn't be too good with numbers...I'm glad you're not running the spurs FO

I'll keep it simple...Monta is grossly overpaid for what he produces. Neal gives you slightly less production @ a 1/6th of the cost.

[MeloHype]

You musn't be too good with numbers...I'm glad you're not running the spurs FO

I'll keep it simple...Monta is grossly overpaid for what he produces. Neal gives you slightly less production @ a 1/6th of the cost.
Monta is a boarder line all star.

[Darkwaters]

Monta is a boarder line all star.

Thats laughable. Monta Ellis is an inefficient chucker.

Hes a career 45% shooter, but has been shooting lower than that for two years straight. Also a career 31% 3PT shooter, but shot only 28% this last year (and worse the year before). Hes a volume shooter. Woefully inefficient. Put him on a bad team and he'll put up decent overall numbers despite bad percentages. But on a good team he has no place and will struggle to function.

I'll gladly take Neal at 1/6 of the price instead of Ellis.

[TheGreatYacht]

I've been thinking about it and I wouldn't mind having Monta Ellis but there are a lot of IFs. If Monta Ellis can get back to shooting around 45%-50% FG like he's done in the past, if he is willing to come off the bench and play a backup PG roll much like Pop tried doing with Manu, if he is willing to spend some time on the gym with Chipp Engelland working on his jump shot, and if he is willing to cut down on the shot jacking and bad FG% jump shots (better shot selection and driving into the lane more) then Monta Ellis can be a good fit for the Spurs. There is no way in hell that Pop should insert him into the starting lineup because of his 6'3" ht and his bad defense. He NEEDS to be a bench player.

[Darkwaters]

I've been thinking about it and I wouldn't mind having Monta Ellis but there are a lot of IFs. If Monta Ellis can get back to shooting around 45%-50% FG like he's done in the past, if he is willing to come off the bench and play a backup PG roll much like Pop tried doing with Manu, if he is willing to spend some time on the gym with Chipp Engelland working on his jump shot, and if he is willing to cut down on the shot jacking and bad FG% jump shots (better shot selection and driving into the lane more) then Monta Ellis can be a good fit for the Spurs. There is no way in hell that Pop should insert him into the starting lineup because of his 6'3" ht and his bad defense. He NEEDS to be a bench player.

He only ever shot above 50% one year (out of eight). That was in 07-08 when he shot 53%. But that was 5 years ago, and his numbers have reverted back to the mean. In other words, it's not going to happen.

Also, he can't shoot the 3.

Bad attitude. Bad fit. Bad economics. BAD IDEA.

No thank you.

[jhuan16]

The dude is a volume shooter and play on a shit team that can pump up his stats to make him look good. If spurs manage to sign him it'll be RJ 2.0 all over again and probably ruin TD's final chance of getting another ring before he retired.

[blkroadrunners]

I've been thinking about it and I wouldn't mind having Monta Ellis but there are a lot of IFs. If Monta Ellis can get back to shooting around 45%-50% FG like he's done in the past, if he is willing to come off the bench and play a backup PG roll much like Pop tried doing with Manu, if he is willing to spend some time on the gym with Chipp Engelland working on his jump shot, and if he is willing to cut down on the shot jacking and bad FG% jump shots (better shot selection and driving into the lane more) then Monta Ellis can be a good fit for the Spurs. There is no way in hell that Pop should insert him into the starting lineup because of his 6'3" ht and his bad defense. He NEEDS to be a bench player.

If Monta can play within the Spurs system, he could be really valuable at the right price. Sure, he's a chucker plus he's not my first option for a FA, but if he's willing to come off the bench, he's a combo guard who can provide offense and relieve TP for a few minutes basically what Hill provided a couple years back.

My concerns though with him are his playoff performances. He looked like a deer caught in headlights for GS, and underacheived last playoffs for the Bucks against the Heat.

[TheGreatYacht]

Now that I think about it, I would rather have Jarrett Jack. He's a much more efficient scorer who would already come with the ability to hit the 3.This. Jarrett Jack is the guy that I've wanted all along. I think the Spurs should seriously consider having a talk with him and see if he's willing to play for a championship contender team like the Spurs without being over paid. Jarrett Jack is 29 so maybe playing for a championship team seems more appealing to Jarrett Jack than making millions of $$$ elsewhere on a shit*y team.

[Marrow]

Monta is a boarder line all star.

You're a borderline idiot if you think winning a fan voted contest is enough to warrant a 12 million dollar contract :lmao

[AFBlue]

smells like due diligence, tbh...

Due diligence in minute one of free agency?

Spurs haven't been linked to this point with any other free agent, so it's not like they made a bevy of calls and are just coming out of the gate strong. They clearly like him, for whatever reason.

[benefactor]

Not buying it, tbh.

[George Gervin's Afro]

no

[Solid D]

As much as I favor Ellises, I pass ... since, well, he never does.

Haha. Nice!

[SenorSpur]

worst fit ever. wants a fat contract, is inefficient and is a defensive liability. can't believe they'd have interest in him, without at least having interest in tyreke, who is a much better fit talent wise

^ this.

Ellis is a proven scorer and playmaker - for himself only. Yet, he's a one-dimensional ball-hog, who plays no defense whatsoever. He'd never agree to come off the bench. There's no way this is true. Spurs can do much better than him - and for less money.

[Baam]

Ellis is said to be willing to take a pay cut to play on a contender, we're not doing better for the money, there's like 17 teams already asking about Tyreke and he's a RFA...

[Captivus]

My only concerns is the money.
I've been wanting to do some analyis in order to see how players from other teams perform when they come to the Spurs, bue the sample is TOO small.
Having said that, I think any player that has skill that comes to the Spurs will probably play better, thats what I assume of Monta.
Danny Green is an example.
Like I said, money is my problem, he is not gonna shoot like crazy with a hand on his face as much as he does in MIL.
I would pay...lets say...4 years 30.

[Yuixafun]

I always thought Monta was a special talent.

Maybe it's not too late for him for good coaching to purify what he is.

He can be prolific scorer if there was intelligence implemented and wisdom in his game.

He also has guts. He was part of that We Believe Golden state Team an 8th seed that Destroyed a Dirk team led Dallas first seed.

At this point in his manhood, wanting to rid himself from the stigmas of his youthful mistakes,
I'd venture to guess maybe he wants to find out how really good he can be.

He never seemed uncoachable to me.

I think playing with Duncan and Pop, and in the Spurs culture, could cut off the rough edges and reveal a gem.


*for some reason I am reminded of Speedy Claxton and 2003.

Parker was faltering and Speedy stepped in and grabbed the reigns
for some reason my mind is drawing a parallel, that Speedy and Monta have that same sort of grit

Also maybe this move would be just so save more wear and tear on Tony in the regular season.

[smaka]

Oh god please no. He is an overrated chucker who makes crazy shot-decisions. Undersized too. I'd rather have that playoff chucker JR.

[Leetonidas]

You're still missing the point. Ballhandlers will have a lot of turnovers, because they're the ones that handle the ball.

FWIW, Tony has done even worse: 66 TOs in 06-07 and 71 TOs in 04-05... yet we still won the 'ship both times.
your blind knob slobbing of ginobili is sickening

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

^ this.

Ellis is a proven scorer and playmaker - for himself only. Yet, he's a one-dimensional ball-hog, who plays no defense whatsoever. He'd never agree to come off the bench. There's no way this is true. Spurs can do much better than him - and for less money.

Playing mostly SG and averaging 6 APG begs to differ. The guy is a chucker. But in the Spurs pass happy offense he might adjust to the more move the ball until the best shot becomes available Spurs system.

The most intriguing thing about him is his ability to get to the rim and penetrate, something the Spurs sorely needed against Miami. Ellis would provide the Spurs just that. It seems that Ellis opted out primarily because he wanted to go to a contending team. Maybe that ass whooping Miami handed to the Bucks left a bad taste in his mouth.

And no, I would rather have Ellis than JR Smith. JR is a headcase and Ellis is anything but that. He is just like Neal where can go into Chucker mode during games.

And who says Ellis wouldn't come off the bench. Terry did it for years making a 10-12 million dollar salary. Being the 6th man on a contending team isn't a bad thing at all. Most get starters minutes anyways.

[milkyway21]

I remember reading an article about Monta Ellis had a fight with Larry Sanders & the two had to be separated in the locker room as the two nearly came to blows after they lost game 3 vs Heat in the playoffs.

While no punches were actually thrown this might be the reason he is not in Milwaukee right now.



the Spurs are 20 sec (or 5.3sec?), to their 5th title and lost but classy enough to accept defeat.

[KL2]

You're still missing the point. Ballhandlers will have a lot of turnovers, because they're the ones that handle the ball.

FWIW, Tony has done even worse: 66 TOs in 06-07 and 71 TOs in 04-05... yet we still won the 'ship both times.


Manu's TO's were killers though, the majority of them were either stupid flashy passes, or him trying to show off dribbling, he looked like a rookie in an old man's body just trying too hard. They happened in crucial moments as well totally killing the Spurs' momentum, the majority of them didn't even have to do with the Heat's defense actually doing anything, he was practically handing the ball off to them.

And offensively TP was levels ahead of Manu's horrific play these playoffs offensively.

[Keepin' it real]

As much as I favor Ellises, I pass ... since, well, he never does.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/34727570.jpg

[J_Paco]

Ellis is said to be willing to take a pay cut to play on a contender, we're not doing better for the money, there's like 17 teams already asking about Tyreke and he's a RFA...


We need size on the perimeter or do people want to see more Ginobili and Green (unsuccessfully) attempting to man the back-up 3, again. His scoring and athleticism is a plus, but he lacks size for his position and has ton of warts in his game (already mentioned by a lot of posters). In short, the Spurs can do a lot better for themselves elsewhere, IMO.

[coachmac87]

Y'all are tripping. Ellis can drop 30 any given night. People that act like they know what he wants are stupid. If he does come off the bench he's exactly what we need.

He turned down that contract because he was playing for the Bucks...if he'd take 2 mil less a year to play for Spurs I'd pull the trigger

[UZER]

I'm not surprised if true. This is as close to a big name as the spurs would have a chance to bring in. They just don't/can't A listers for a myriad of reasons, so they end up almost always getting guys with something to prove. That's their big fish hook.

[MarCowMar]

On most teams a player like Ellis would be a cancer, but if he can score and create his own shot from the 2 spot, that's exactly what we need right now..

[r0drig0lac]

On most teams a player like Ellis would be a cancer, but if he can score and create his own shot from the 2 spot, that's exactly what we need right now..
exatamente isso, e ainda se conseguissemos ellis e ainda de alguma forma faruck aminu eu estaria completamente feliz

[eDizzle20]

The biggest question with Ellis for me is 'how much money will he command?'. If he can be gotten for decent value I think he is well worth it. For the Spurs a guy like Ellis could be very big off the bench. With the Bucks and previously the Warriors Ellis was a focal point of the offense and did over extend himself as far as shot selection goes. Ultimately, the guy can straight-up score. In a system like the Spurs being a spark off the bench I think he could really thrive. The Spurs struggled mightily scoring against Miami when Parker was out.

[weebo]

You can't fit a square peg into a round hole. Ellis is not a player who fits into the Spurs mold. He is too selfish on the court, does not know how to play defense, and most importantly, does not have 'basketball smarts'...he does not fit into the inclusion criteria to be on this team.

This has to be a smoke screen from Ellis's camp to draw up more interest from other teams.

[Knoxxx]

Goal is probably squeeze this guy and Splitter into our avaiable $19 million cap space, $23 million with a Bonner amnesty. Likely then means that an offer to Neal would not be matched.

Obviously against Miami we needed a) another scorer to stop runs, b) a player that could stay on the floor against the Heat

If Ellis brings a and b that's perfect. If he only brings a that still improves our team I'm thinking.

[MR-Clutch]

Not sure why the spurs are interested in Ellis and not iggy. Maybe they something in Ellis's jumpshot that they can fix?

[RD2191]

^ yeah, because you didn't just describe gary neal

[MR-Clutch]

Ellis is 10x the athlete Neal is.

[Texas_Ranger]

Ellis would not replace Neal, he would probably start before Green.

[Outlier]

Ellis on this team would be amazing. We're too dependent on Parker for playmaking, now that Manu sucks.

[dbreiden83080]

So if they sign him do we all assume he won't fit in? Or do we give this a chance?

[jermaine]

Ellis is 10x the athlete Neal is.

Idk why they keep putting Neal in the same sentence with Ellis. Ellis can be counted on to carry a team for awhile. Neal cant be counted on thru 1 gm.

[Knoxxx]

Like I said, if we bring back Splitter and add someone that can stay on the floor against Miami we've already won this offseason. Manu at a low salary minus the crazy Harlem Globetrotters passing and dribbling would be icing on the cake.

[look_at_g_shred]

Aminu please.

[michaelwcho]

Monta Ellis sucks. A wannabe Iverson, who wasn't very good anyway. I really don't understand how these volume shooters got over on the league.

[Drom John]

Monta Ellis 4.6 WS; .071 WS/48
Gary Neal 0.4 WS; .052 WS/48

[Mugen]

no, thank you.

[Brunodf]

That's a bad joke

[FireMicoHalili]

Not bad. Hope he takes a pay cut. Instant offense, this guy. Will afford the Big 3 some rest, even if it were on the offensive end only.

[ducks]

ellis and no manu
is that what the spurs are thinking

[ElNono]

your blind knob slobbing of ginobili is sickening

Let me know when you can actually dispute what was posted. Until then, fuck off.

[racm]

I've been on ST long enough to know that you don't mess with Nono

[Leetonidas]

Let me know when you can actually dispute what was posted. Until then, fuck off.

let me know when your fatass can actually post something worthwhile instead of sucking ginobili's cock and trying to compare his TOs to Parker when Parker had 41 more assists and 200 more minutes you dumbfuck. and gtfo trying to compare 2005 or 2003 Parker to Parker now, you're a dumbass

[Leetonidas]

pretty sad really. manu is one of my favorite players, i have him in my fucking avvy. you're just a fatass argie homer

[TheGreatYacht]

ellis and no manu
is that what the spurs are thinkingLOL I would hope so.

[TheGreatYacht]

I've been on ST long enough to know that you don't mess with NonoHe never argues what I have to say. He knows he can't handle me.

[Seventyniner]

He never argues what I have to say. He has me on ignore.

Fixed.

[TheGreatYacht]

Fixed.Right because I'm too much to handle.

[ginobilized]

I like the idea.....between he and Parker there would always be a scoring threat with great speed to constantly pressure opposing defenses.
Ellis and Ginobili would be an interesting pairing, too.

Doubt it happens, but, it makes our offense better....and would probably mean goodbye Gary Neal

[ElNono]

let me know when your fatass can actually post something worthwhile instead of sucking ginobili's cock and trying to compare his TOs to Parker when Parker had 41 more assists and 200 more minutes you dumbfuck. and gtfo trying to compare 2005 or 2003 Parker to Parker now, you're a dumbass

There was no comparison made, you fucking retard. Merely pointed out that ballhandlers will have a bunch of turnovers to go with their assists. Happens to all of them, TP, Manu, etc etc.

And lol @ ":cry plz don't bring this previous season stuff up because it doesn't help my argument :cry"

I've said Manu had one of his worst postseasons ever. How's that knob slobbing? :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

There was no comparison made, you fucking retard. Merely pointed out that ballhandlers will have a bunch of turnovers to go with their assists. Happens to all of them, TP, Manu, etc etc.

And lol @ ":cry plz don't bring this previous season stuff up because it doesn't help my argument :cry"

I've said Manu had one of his worst postseasons ever. How's that knob slobbing? :lolDon't lie. I remember you tried getting into an long argument with Kidd K pulling all these bogus stats out of your as* ,like ESPN does with Lebron, just to protect your God Manu Ginobili and justify his pathetic performance in the NBA Finals. Nice try. You got owned.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

In my book, there is nothing wrong about being a homer. Manu still can be Manu, but with less frequency than in the past that much is for sure. Manu needs to take on a Horry/Finley type of role.

Spurs need to sign someone to take over the ball handling duties from the Bench and Manu resorts to a spot up shooting role unless his body allows him drive it to hole for dunk or lay-up. But having him run around screens and being the main distributor off the bench next season will be a bad mistake for the Spurs.

[ElNono]

pretty sad really. manu is one of my favorite players, i have him in my fucking avvy. you're just a fatass argie homer

What's sad is the knee-jerk reaction every time somebody brings up Parker on a conversation about Manu, thinking it's some kind of dig or comparison. There's no question who's the better player right now, hasn't been a question for a while now.

The full on female menstruation mode people like you go on is fucking sad. Stop being an insecure bitch.

[Leetonidas]

lol dude all you did during the Finals was suck manu off and constantly chime in about how it wasn't his fault and how he wasn't playing that bad when he was fucking atrocious on the court.

you're really fucking stupid trying to compare 19 year old Parker to MVParker. fucking fatass :lol the first time someone mentions manu's turnovers in this thread you have to rush to his defense that Parker, who is the primary ball handler who the defense was keyed on who played 200 more minutes and had 41 more assists than ginoibli, also had two LESS turnovers. this is a thread about Ellis and you have to slight Parker to try and prop Manu up.

oh and you admitted he had one of his worst postseasons ever? wow you're a real fucking observant guy there, numbnuts

[TheGreatYacht]

In my book, there is nothing wrong about being a homer. Manu still can be Manu, but with less frequency than in the past that much is for sure. Manu needs to take on a Horry/Finley type of role.

Spurs need to sign someone to take over the ball handling duties from the Bench and Manu resorts to a spot up shooting role unless his body allows him drive it to hole for dunk or lay-up. But having him run around screens and being the main distributor off the bench next season will be a bad mistake for the Spurs.LMAO at calling El Nono a Homer.

[Leetonidas]

What's sad is the knee-jerk reaction every time somebody brings up Parker on a conversation about Manu, thinking it's some kind of dig or comparison. There's no question who's the better player right now, hasn't been a question for a while now.

The full on female menstruation mode people like you go on is fucking sad. Stop being an insecure bitch.
Then why did you feel the need to bring Parker into this? Because someone said shit about Manu had you had to rush to his defense. that simple

[ElNono]

Don't lie. I remember you tried getting into an long argument with Kidd K pulling all these bogus stats out of your as* ,like ESPN does with Lebron, just to protect your God Manu Ginobili and justify his pathetic performance in the NBA Finals. Nice try. You got owned.

Kidd K has no problem with Manu coming back... ask him.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhh girl

[TheGreatYacht]

lol dude all you did during the Finals was suck manu off and constantly chime in about how it wasn't his fault and how he wasn't playing that bad when he was fucking atrocious on the court.

you're really fucking stupid trying to compare 19 year old Parker to MVParker. fucking fatass :lol the first time someone mentions manu's turnovers in this thread you have to rush to his defense that Parker, who is the primary ball handler who the defense was keyed on who played 200 more minutes and had 41 more assists than ginoibli, also had two LESS turnovers. this is a thread about Ellis and you have to slight Parker to try and prop Manu up.

oh and you admitted he had one of his worst postseasons ever? wow you're a real fucking observant guy there, numbnutshttp://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u198/Wicked_Seraph/GoodShowBravoApplause-1.gif (http://www.spurstalk.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Ra4gV7TfTIacoM&tbnid=sAuFq92rZNaN3M:&ved=0CAgQjRwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sodahead.com%2Funited-states%2Fblue-states-blues-day-15-romney-won-the-debate-strategically-he-looked-presidential-while-potus%2Fquestion-3266487%2F%3Fpage%3D2&ei=grXRUcPVMJSA9gTC3oGwDw&psig=AFQjCNHGY5u-is7vLH27frf7x3hfDUaJqQ&ust=1372784386845717)

[Leetonidas]

and like i said, I want ginobili back, he is one of my favorite spurs. but he was fucking garbage and deserves a huge share of the blame for shitting the bed massively in the Finals

[TheGreatYacht]

Kidd K has no problem with Manu coming back... ask him.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhh girlLMAO at you feeling like you convinced him even though he owned you.

[TheGreatYacht]

and like i said, I want ginobili back, he is one of my favorite spurs. but he was fucking garbage and deserves a huge share of the blame for shitting the bed massively in the Finalshttp://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u198/Wicked_Seraph/GoodShowBravoApplause-1.gif (http://www.spurstalk.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Ra4gV7TfTIacoM&tbnid=sAuFq92rZNaN3M:&ved=0CAgQjRwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sodahead.com%2Funited-states%2Fblue-states-blues-day-15-romney-won-the-debate-strategically-he-looked-presidential-while-potus%2Fquestion-3266487%2F%3Fpage%3D2&ei=grXRUcPVMJSA9gTC3oGwDw&psig=AFQjCNHGY5u-is7vLH27frf7x3hfDUaJqQ&ust=1372784386845717)

[tesseractive]

^ this.

Ellis is a proven scorer and playmaker - for himself only. Yet, he's a one-dimensional ball-hog, who plays no defense whatsoever. He'd never agree to come off the bench. There's no way this is true. Spurs can do much better than him - and for less money.
I haven't watched him much, so feel free to tell me I've completely got this wrong. But he's been averaging 6 assists per 36 for several years now, so it doesn't sound like he should be completely useless in setting other guys up.

[TheGreatYacht]

Kidd K has no problem with Manu coming back... ask him.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhh girlBTW I want Manu coming back too but at the veteran's minimum. Nice job, you've convinced me.

[SenorSpur]

I haven't watched him much, so feel free to tell me I've completely got this wrong. But he's been averaging 6 assists per 36 for several years now, so it doesn't sound like he should be completely useless in setting other guys up.

If that average assist total is true, I'd be astounded.

I admit that the Spurs could use his offensive punch, I just think besides that, he doesn't bring much else to the table. With the kind of money he will command on the open market, I think he'd be a bad fit for the Spurs in a lot of ways.

[ChumpDumper]

Man he's short.

[ElNono]

Then why did you feel the need to bring Parker into this? Because someone said shit about Manu had you had to rush to his defense. that simple

I brought up Parker to show that a much superior player had a lot of turnovers too, and that's not an uncommon occurrence when you're a ball handler.

Also posted what Manu's AST/TO ratio was when that was brought up. Why aren't you bitching about me bringing up George Hill, DWade or Mario Chalmers?

[xmas1997]

Man he's short.

So was AI, but that is what bothers me too.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

LMAO at calling El Nono a Homer.

I am a homer for Manu. Yeah he sucked in game 6 & 7 of the Finals, but he tried. And I look back at the '03 Lakers, '05 Nuggets, '07 Suns series and there is probably very small chance the Spurs win either of those series without Manu.

But the realistic outlook now is that Manu is a shell of his former self. Can he still be a contributor, YES. Can he still take over games every now and then, Yes. But can he be relied on on a night in night out basis, NO.

That is why the Spurs really need to push to sign someone like Evans or Ellis this offseason b/c imo, that is really the missing piece for the Spurs at this point. And no, a bigman at this point isn't.

[Knoxxx]

Manu just needs to refocus a bit from "spectacular" towards "fundamentally sound." With his abilities diminished a bit, he can't get away with all the crazy plays he used to.

[tesseractive]

If that average assist total is true, I'd be astounded.

I admit that the Spurs could use his offensive punch, I just think besides that, he doesn't bring much else to the table. With the kind of money he will command on the open market, I think he'd be a bad fit for the Spurs in a lot of ways.

Oops -- not quite several seasons, because he's listed 3 times for 2011-12. :lol

But still surprisingly decent:

Season .Tm .Ast
---------------
2009-10 GSW 4.6
2010-11 GSW 5.0
2011-12 TOT 5.9
2011-12 GSW 5.9
2011-12 MIL 5.9
2012-13 MIL 5.8

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ellismo01.html

[Leetonidas]

I brought up Parker to show that a much superior player had a lot of turnovers too, and that's not an uncommon occurrence when you're a ball handler.

Also posted what Manu's AST/TO ratio was when that was brought up. Why aren't you bitching about me bringing up George Hill, DWade or Mario Chalmers?
Yes but you're comparing apples to oranges. Parker played the equivalent of 4 games more games and had less turnovers than Ginobili, while being the primary ball handler. And because who gives a shit about them, they aren't on our team. We're talking about Ginobili. Nono I don't see how you can defend him having more turnovers while playing a lot less minutes. Parker also handles the ball WAY more than Ginobili. Wasn't one of the games where he started next to Parker the one he had 8 freaking turnovers in? You can spin it anyway you want but 8 turnovers in a Finals game is simply unacceptable

[dbestpro]

Great move by Spurs. Go after someone no fan wants so the fans will be content with the same roster.

[TheGreatYacht]

I am a homer for Manu. Yeah he sucked in game 6 & 7 of the Finals, but he tried. And I look back at the '03 Lakers, '05 Nuggets, '07 Suns series and there is probably very small chance the Spurs win either of those series without Manu.

But the realistic outlook now is that Manu is a shell of his former self. Can he still be a contributor, YES. Can he still take over games every now and then, Yes. But can he be relied on on a night in night out basis, NO.

That is why the Spurs really need to push to sign someone like Evans or Ellis this offseason b/c imo, that is really the missing piece for the Spurs at this point. And no, a bigman at this point isn't.Well said.

Manu just needs to refocus a bit from "spectacular" towards "fundamentally sound." With his abilities diminished a bit, he can't get away with all the crazy plays he used to.I doubt he will ever change. He only knows how to play one way and that is to take risks. The older he is, the higher the probability of his risks not panning out like they used to.

[Mr Bones]

Internet rumors on day 1 of free agency... I don't believe it. I understand the Spurs signing an undersized shooter for minimum money to play spare minutes off the bench, but I just don't think they'd consider a major contract to a 6'3" SG who has little interest in playing defense.

[024]

:lol I've seen some bad rumors over the years but this one has to be top 3.

[ElNono]

Yes but you're comparing apples to oranges. Parker played the equivalent of 4 games more games and had less turnovers than Ginobili, while being the primary ball handler. And because who gives a shit about them, they aren't on our team. We're talking about Ginobili. Nono I don't see how you can defend him having more turnovers while playing a lot less minutes. Parker also handles the ball WAY more than Ginobili. Wasn't one of the games where he started next to Parker the one he had 8 freaking turnovers in? You can spin it anyway you want but 8 turnovers in a Finals game is simply unacceptable

But you're making the same mistake again. I'm not comparing Tony and Gino. I'm not. Just stop with that.

I brought him up because he's the ONLY other ball handler in the team, and when you handle the rock, you're going to have turnovers and a lot of them. I'd love every player not to have any turnovers, and if you actually look, Manu actually didn't have many in the first 4 games. I actually pointed that out as a good sign (obviously unaware of the Game 6 TO shitfest).

You can call me a homer because I can still talk about Gino without going in some frenzy. But I've made no excuses about his performance in Game 6.

And don't tell me TP was 19 in 06-07... Finals MVP... you know better than that. :lol

[ElNono]

BTW I want Manu coming back too


You got owned.

[TheGreatYacht]

LMAO. Don't spin my words around. Quit copying SA210.

[coyotes_geek]

I haven't watched him much, so feel free to tell me I've completely got this wrong. But he's been averaging 6 assists per 36 for several years now, so it doesn't sound like he should be completely useless in setting other guys up.

It's the chucker phenomenon. He dominates the ball, so whatever happens he's going to be a part of it, be it him chucking up a shot or making a pass to a guy who's immediately going to chuck up a shot. Similar concept to Gilbert Arenas who would dribble off 20 seconds of the shot clock and either jack up a shot or pass it to someone who had no choice but to jack up a shot. Enough of those shots would go in and Gilbert would end up with 8-10 assists and people who weren't watching would think that was the result of unselfish play when the opposite was really true.

Ellis is a good player, but he wants the ball in his hands the entire time he's out on the court. If he were to come here, I'd have no doubt that he'd put up good numbers, but they'd be at the expense of everyone elses.

[FireMicoHalili]

We have holes at the wing position and the center position. I hope somebody here can explain how Ellis is worse than Green.

[TheGreatYacht]

It's the chucker phenomenon. He dominates the ball, so whatever happens he's going to be a part of it, be it him chucking up a shot or making a pass to a guy who's immediately going to chuck up a shot. Similar concept to Gilbert Arenas who would dribble off 20 seconds of the shot clock and either jack up a shot or pass it to someone who had no choice but to jack up a shot. Enough of those shots would go in and Gilbert would end up with 8-10 assists and people who weren't watching would think that was the result of unselfish play when the opposite was really true.It's called the Rajon Rando style.

[Leetonidas]

But you're making the same mistake again. I'm not comparing Tony and Gino. I'm not. Just stop with that.

I brought him up because he's the ONLY other ball handler in the team, and when you handle the rock, you're going to have turnovers and a lot of them. I'd love every player not to have any turnovers, and if you actually look, Manu actually didn't have many in the first 4 games. I actually pointed that out as a good sign (obviously unaware of the Game 6 TO shitfest).

You can call me a homer because I can still talk about Gino without going in some frenzy. But I've made no excuses about his performance in Game 6.

And don't tell me TP was 19 in 06-07... Finals MVP... you know better than that. :lol



You specifically mentioned 2003 and 2005 Parker (who was getting benched in crucial moments in favor or Claxton or Barry) not 2007 Parker. And alright, if you wanna get technical about the language you aren't COMPARING them but making an observation between the two, but my point still stands. I just don't see how it's relevant when Parker played a lot more and a better TO/AST ratio.

And I don't buy that you're going to have a lot of turnovers just because you handle the rock a lot. The Heat were focused on Parker with their best defender (LeBron) on him a lot of the times and he still managed 0 turnovers in Game 1. My problem with Manu is his turnovers are always off ridiculous passes or him trying to be too flashy or leaving his feet and trying to throw some ridiculous pass cross court. I will admit that had Tiago not shit the bed Ginobili would have had better assists numbers but he was really the worst player on the floor for us in almost every game besides Game 5.

[coyotes_geek]

It's called the Rajon Rando style.

Another good example.

[CitizenDwayne]

This really only makes sense if the Spurs plan on ditching Ginobili.

Either way, I don't like it, and I don't really see it happening.

[monkeypunk]

Beyond scoring, Ellis actually has pretty decent numbers so at a discount, he could add more to SAS than people think. I'd be for him but not at $12 Million a year.

Year Team RPG APG SPG

11-12 GSW 3.4 6.0 1.5
11-12 MIL 3.5 5.9 1.4
12-13 MIL 3.9 6.0 2.1

[ElNono]

You specifically mentioned 2003 and 2005 Parker (who was getting benched in crucial moments in favor or Claxton or Barry) not 2007 Parker. And alright, if you wanna get technical about the language you aren't COMPARING them but making an observation between the two, but my point still stands. I just don't see how it's relevant when Parker played a lot more and a better TO/AST ratio.

It's relevant when somebody posts an unquantified number. OMG 55 turnovers! Well, what's the reference?

TP is an actual PG in his prime, and he's one of the best ones in the league at that. Ofcourse he has a phenomenal TO/AST ratio. That's not to say Manu doesn't do a serviceable job* when you look what other players in the league do.

* I'm talking overall, don't go into another Game 6 frenzy. He was #2 in assists for the Spurs by a large margin this season.


And I don't buy that you're going to have a lot of turnovers just because you handle the rock a lot. The Heat were focused on Parker with their best defender (LeBron) on him a lot of the times and he still managed 0 turnovers in Game 1. My problem with Manu is his turnovers are always off ridiculous passes or him trying to be too flashy or leaving his feet and trying to throw some ridiculous pass cross court. I will admit that had Tiago not shit the bed Ginobili would have had better assists numbers but he was really the worst player on the floor for us in almost every game besides Game 5.

You'll me mistaken if you didn't think the Heat didn't focus on Manu too. Just like they focused on Green in Game 6 and 7. It's no excuse for his poor Game 6, but I also get the feeling people don't give enough credit to Miami defense here.

[ChumpDumper]

I can see how this might work. Ideally I think they would want Ellis to replace Manu's role as super sixth man and slide Manu to backup Leonard.

A hard sell, but not impossible.

Or I could be totally wrong.

[tesseractive]

I can see how this might work. Ideally I think they would want Ellis to replace Manu's role as super sixth man and slide Manu to backup Leonard.

A hard sell, but not impossible.

Or I could be totally wrong.
Wouldn't it potentially be a lot like when Jason Terry -- who was an undersized gunner for the Hawks -- went to the Mavs?

[ElNono]

I can see how this might work. Ideally I think they would want Ellis to replace Manu's role as super sixth man and slide Manu to backup Leonard.

A hard sell, but not impossible.

Or I could be totally wrong.

There's many ways you can integrate a guy like Monta... the pricetag is the big question mark.

[Baam]

I'm not convinced you sell Ellis on coming to a small market and take a pay cut to come off the bench, he has to start, asking him to come off the bench is greedy...

[Baam]

With him on the team you don't really need a backup PG unless you want to rest players so you can shorten the rotation with stronger players, Green could very well be the only guard coming off the bench (with Manu playing backup SF for instance).

[DPG21920]

So do people think Woj is being used as a mouthpiece? Can't imagine he would say something about the Spurs without confirming it tbh..

Also, I really hope it is not true for most of the reasons stated.

[Baam]

Then Green pulls a JR Smith becomes 6th man of the year and you trade him before the last year of his deal when his value is at an all time high...

[coyotes_geek]

There's many ways you can integrate a guy like Monta... the pricetag is the big question mark.

Pricetag and minutes. You could probably talk him out of starting, but he's still going to want starter minutes I'd think.

On second thought, minutes probably aren't that big of a deal if you let Ellis take the 16 +/- minutes backing up Tony as PG in addition to whatever minutes you get him at SG. Of course if you do that then you've got to figure out what to do with the Joseph/Mills/Decolo trio. Spurs would have to cut at least two of those guys loose IMO. No need for 4th and 5th string point guards with Parker and Ellis on the team.

[Baam]

So do people think Woj is being used as a mouthpiece? Can't imagine he would say something about the Spurs without confirming it tbh..

Also, I really hope it is not true for most of the reasons stated.

Pop has gone after JR Smith time and time again, why wouldn't you believe the most reliable source in the nba when he tells you they're asking about Ellis?

[dunkman]

the spurs need a sixth man, manu is a role player at this point.

[SpursDynasty21]

Would Ellis start for the Spurs?

[ducks]

he would be the 6 man taking manu 6 man away from him

[SpursDynasty21]

I could see Ellis signing with the Spurs and taking over Neal's role. I think Ginobili comes back for another season.

[SenorSpur]

I brought up Parker to show that a much superior player had a lot of turnovers too, and that's not an uncommon occurrence when you're a ball handler.

Also posted what Manu's AST/TO ratio was when that was brought up. Why aren't you bitching about me bringing up George Hill, DWade or Mario Chalmers?

Probably because THEY don't play for the Spurs.

[coyotes_geek]

I could see Ellis signing with the Spurs and taking over Neal's role. I think Ginobili comes back for another season.

For the money it would take to get Ellis on board, he'd need a much bigger role than Neal's old one. He'd probably take Neal's role as well as Joseph's and some of Manu's.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

I don't think he's ever improved a team. Terrible defense and not-winning basketball overall.

If we could limit him to sort of a luxury-Neal somehow, then maybe I guess.

But he is still too expensive for that, even if it's becoming clear that no one wants to pay him.

League is getting smarter.

[DPG21920]

Even if the Spurs wanted Monta and AK, it would be pretty much impossible. Assuming the Spur max their cap space by letting Tiago go for no money in return, amnesty Bonner and let Neal/Blair walk, they would have 19M in cap space.

Let's say Manu is back and takes 5M. That would be 14M left. If AK gets the 7-8M that seems to be expected, that only leaves 6-7M for Monta which he obviously is not taking.

[TD 21]

I don't know why so many take every rumor of the Spurs supposedly being interested in a player as gospel. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that this is either his agent trying to prop up interest or the Spurs seeing if they can get an extreme contender discount, which is not going to happen.

[therealtruth]

I think what drives people crazy are Manu's unforced turnovers. Against a good defensive team you can expect to get some forced turnovers.

[TheGreatYacht]

Even if the Spurs wanted Monta and AK, it would be pretty much impossible. Assuming the Spur max their cap space by letting Tiago go for no money in return, amnesty Bonner and let Neal/Blair walk, they would have 19M in cap space.

Let's say Manu is back and takes 5M. That would be 14M left. If AK gets the 7-8M that seems to be expected, that only leaves 6-7M for Monta which he obviously is not taking.Bingo. Manu is the problem. He is the obstacle. He is no longer irreplaceable. Enough with that loyalty BS and "lets keep Manu because he helped us win 3 rings." Like I keep saying, fuc* Manu. He can take the veteran's minimum or retire.

[Chomag]

the spurs need a sixth man, manu is a role player at this point.

[coachmac87]

Even if the Spurs wanted Monta and AK, it would be pretty much impossible. Assuming the Spur max their cap space by letting Tiago go for no money in return, amnesty Bonner and let Neal/Blair walk, they would have 19M in cap space.

Let's say Manu is back and takes 5M. That would be 14M left. If AK gets the 7-8M that seems to be expected, that only leaves 6-7M for Monta which he obviously is not taking.

Manu- 2YR 10MIL
AK- 3YR 18MIL
Ellis- 4YR 36MIL

[ducks]

Manu- 2YR 10MIL
AK- 3YR 18MIL
Ellis- 4YR 36MIL

splitter?

[coachmac87]

splitter?

Gortat?? lol

[BackHome]

Oh HELL to the NO..............

[Kidd K]

I don't know. He'd be better than current Manu, but I'd rather try to cash in on Iguodala instead. Ellis is not a defender, is a ballhog, and a bad shot jacker.

Yes, he's very talented, but he's one of those guys who has such terrible tendencies that his stats always end impacting the game a lot less than you'd expect them to. And yes, I'm saying he's a terrible defensive player who's chucking and shitty defense practically negates his potent offense.


Top 5 player in the league. Monta Ellis have it all.

At best he's around #20. Nowhere near top 5.


One of Neal and Manu definitely gone if this happens. Probably Manu.

Neal is likely gone regardless if the Spurs bring in any SG. I'd expect the Spurs to bring Manu back and take over Neal's old role before Neal be brought back and Manu cut.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

So Manu-haters actually think Ellis is a better player?

I think that's the ultimate proof of their delusion.

Even 12/13 Manu was a superior player and of course career-wise Ellis doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with him.

Look at all numbers. If anyone really thought Monta was better, there is the proof of your delusion, blind hatred, stupidity whatever it may be.

[SanDiegoSpursFan]

At best he's around #20. Nowhere near top 5.

1) Kobe
2) Monta Ellis
3) LeBron James

[DJR210]

He ain't coming here, he has full sleeves for god sakes.

[Kidd K]

1) Kobe
2) Monta Ellis
3) LeBron James

Not even remotely close.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

So Manu-haters actually think Ellis is a better player?

I think that's the ultimate proof of their delusion.

Even 12/13 Manu was a superior player and of course career-wise Ellis doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with him.

Look at all numbers. If anyone really thought Monta was better, there is the proof of your delusion, blind hatred, stupidity whatever it may be.

At this point of their careers, Ellis is better. When Manu was 27, he was an all-star and a better player than Monta, but not by much. Monta is right up their with Parker when it comes to being able to penetrate to the basket. The guy is super quick and super athletic. The biggest drawback of him is that he has a tendency to go into chucker mode. But didn't Manu exhibit those same tendency is his career as well.

The Spurs need another playmaker other than Parker right now. If its Ellis, it would be a good move by the Spurs.

[Johnny RIngo]

So Manu-haters actually think Ellis is a better player?

Or maybe this shows how far Ginobili's regressed. Spurs fans used to think he was better than Wade a few years ago so the "blind hater" excuse doesn't add up. Ginobili's disastrous post-seasons the past two years have opened a lot of eyes imo.

[Kidd K]

So Manu-haters actually think Ellis is a better player?

I think that's the ultimate proof of their delusion.

Even 12/13 Manu was a superior player and of course career-wise Ellis doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with him.

Look at all numbers. If anyone really thought Monta was better, there is the proof of your delusion, blind hatred, stupidity whatever it may be.

Old, broken down Manu is worse than Ellis in the prime of his career, yes.

The only person delusional is you if you think that's false.

[Chinook]

1) Kobe
2) Monta Ellis
3) LeBron James

Pretty good list, but I don't know if Kobe can come back from his injury. If he can't then it's:

1)Monta Ellis
2)Lebron James
3)Danny Green

[TheGreatYacht]

So Manu-haters actually think Ellis is a better player?
I think that's the ultimate proof of their delusion.
Even 12/13 Manu was a superior player and of course career-wise Ellis doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with him.
Look at all numbers. If anyone really thought Monta was better, there is the proof of your delusion, blind hatred, stupidity whatever it may be.Stop living in the past. Manu is no longer the 2007 Manu. He is washed up. He is done. He suc*s now. He needs to play a Gary Neal type of minutes role next year and at the veteran's minimum. You're the delusional unrealistic one that doesn't want to admit that Manu is not the same anymore.

Definition of a homer - Someone who shows blind loyalty to a team or organization, typically ignoring any shortcomings or faults they have.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=homer

[look_at_g_shred]

:lmao This thread

[TheGoldStandard]

I want to fast forward 10 days so we can see the dust settle and see the same returning starting 5.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

At this point of their careers, Ellis is better. When Manu was 27, he was an all-star and a better player than Monta, but not by much. Monta is right up their with Parker when it comes to being able to penetrate to the basket. The guy is super quick and super athletic. The biggest drawback of him is that he has a tendency to go into chucker mode. But didn't Manu exhibit those same tendency is his career as well.

The Spurs need another playmaker other than Parker right now. If its Ellis, it would be a good move by the Spurs.


Or maybe this shows how far Ginobili's regressed. Spurs fans used to think he was better than Wade a few years ago so the "blind hater" excuse doesn't add up. Ginobili's disastrous post-seasons the past two years have opened a lot of eyes imo.


Old, broken down Manu is worse than Ellis in the prime of his career, yes.

The only person delusional is you if you think that's false.

So I guess none of you bothered to look at those numbers?

The worst thing about Ellis isn't even his terrible shooting. What it is we'll get to later, but first:

TS%

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 560 vs 493
11/12: 668 vs 493 (518 for GS)
10/11: 581 vs 509
9/10: 584 vs 536

3 point shooting:

Monta is a career .318 three-point shooter vs Manu's .372 This season Monta Ellis shot a pathetic 28 pct attempting 3.8 per game, yes that's worse than Manu's 35 pct attempting 3.9.

Overall he performs this shooting damage (mostly to his own teams) averaging 16.4 field goal attempts during his career. Manu is at 10.6 and of course with a much better true shooting percentage.

Btw Ellis averages more than 3 turnovers per game 5 different seasons during his career. Including this one at 3.1.

oRTG (Offensive Rating, look it up!)

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 107 vs 101 (yes even this season he is better than Ellis)
11/12: 125 vs 101
10/11: 116 vs 107
09/10: 118 vs 99

Career: 115 vs 104

Out of that and dRTG (defensive rating) you can calculate an overall win% Ellis: 11/12: .495 10/11: .531 09/10: .471

If not for the widespread delusion here, it should be needless to say that Manu completely blows those numbers away with: .709, .677 and .705

How about some

PER:

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 19 vs 16.2
11/12: 24.1 vs 17.5
10/11: 21.7 vs 18.6
09/10: 22.5 vs 16.7

Yes there is some value in Ellis assists (though Manu ast% is usually better) but he dominates the ball and volume so much that with his well below league average shooting that his teams are often better with him off the floor.

Manu is a much better offensive player while Ellis does his worst damage to his own teams.

The worst thing about Ellis is actually harder to find in various stats. It's on the defensive end of things. Now obviously Manu also blows him away in defensive rating and in some of the new plus minus stats like RAPM (which for many years, killing the noise, has had Manu consistently as one of the best players in the league) but Ellis arms are so short that he can't guard any shooting guards and for him not to be a major liability you'd have to pair him with big PGs who can guard the other team's twos. The list of starting point guards he can be paired with is actually non existant and partnerships with Curry and Jennings were a disaster. Add that incurable problem to his offensive issues and the guy can arguably be unplayable. That is if you want to win basketball games.

Of course frustrations with Manu can be excused and is sometimes perfectly understandable, but when it's gotten to a point where whatever it is, ignorance, stupidity or lame internet-hate, has gotten so delusional that those very people think MONTA ELLIS of all people is a better basketball player than Ginobili and think a team would be better with Monta than Manu, then it's just inexcucable.

But here is to your delusions^^^^^^

[Chinook]

^Damn...

[Sean Cagney]

So I guess none of you bothered to look at those numbers?

The worst thing about Ellis isn't even his terrible shooting. What it is we'll get to later, but first:

TS%

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 560 vs 493
11/12: 668 vs 493 (518 for GS)
10/11: 581 vs 509
9/10: 584 vs 536

3 point shooting:

Monta is a career .318 three-point shooter vs Manu's .372 This season Monta Ellis shot a pathetic 28 pct attempting 3.8 per game, yes that's worse than Manu's 35 pct attempting 3.9.

Overall he performs this shooting damage (mostly to his own teams) averaging 16.4 field goal attempts during his career. Manu is at 10.6 and of course with a much better true shooting percentage.

Btw Ellis averages more than 3 turnovers per game 5 different seasons during his career. Including this one at 3.1.

oRTG (Offensive Rating, look it up!)

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 107 vs 101 (yes even this season he is better than Ellis)
11/12: 125 vs 101
10/11: 116 vs 107
09/10: 118 vs 99

Career: 115 vs 104

Out of that and dRTG (defensive rating) you can calculate an overall win% Ellis: 11/12: .495 10/11: .531 09/10: .471

If not for the widespread delusion here, it should be needless to say that Manu completely blows those numbers away with: .709, .677 and .705

How about some

PER:

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 19 vs 16.2
11/12: 24.1 vs 17.5
10/11: 21.7 vs 18.6
09/10: 22.5 vs 16.7

Yes there is some value in Ellis assists (though Manu ast% is usually better) but he dominates the ball and volume so much that with his well below league average shooting that his teams are often better with him off the floor.

Manu is a much better offensive player while Ellis does his worst damage to his own teams.

The worst thing about Ellis is actually harder to find in various stats. It's on the defensive end of things. Now obviously Manu also blows him away in defensive rating and in some of the new plus minus stats like RAPM (which for many years, killing the noise, has had Manu consistently as one of the best players in the league) but Ellis arms are so short that he can't guard any shooting guards and for him not to be a major liability you'd have to pair him with big PGs who can guard the other team's twos. The list of starting point guards he can be paired with is actually non existant and partnerships with Curry and Jennings were a disaster. Add that incurable problem to his offensive issues and the guy can arguably be unplayable. That is if you want to win basketball games.

Of course frustrations with Manu can be excused and is sometimes perfectly understandable, but when it's gotten to a point where whatever it is, ignorance, stupidity or lame internet-hate, has gotten so delusional that those very people think MONTA ELLIS of all people is a better basketball player than Ginobili and think a team would be better with Monta than Manu, then it's just inexcucable.

But here is to your delusions^^^^^^

Good points, but in 2013 I would rather have Monta on my team than an older Manu who appears to be nearly done! Good post and mostly facts there! I like you did your research and put that up. Right now though I would take Monta over him, just off youth alone.

[ElNono]

I have no alternate accounts... NONE... timvp can confirm, tbh...

[Marrow]

So I guess none of you bothered to look at those numbers?

The worst thing about Ellis isn't even his terrible shooting. What it is we'll get to later, but first:

TS%

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 560 vs 493
11/12: 668 vs 493 (518 for GS)
10/11: 581 vs 509
9/10: 584 vs 536

3 point shooting:

Monta is a career .318 three-point shooter vs Manu's .372 This season Monta Ellis shot a pathetic 28 pct attempting 3.8 per game, yes that's worse than Manu's 35 pct attempting 3.9.

Overall he performs this shooting damage (mostly to his own teams) averaging 16.4 field goal attempts during his career. Manu is at 10.6 and of course with a much better true shooting percentage.

Btw Ellis averages more than 3 turnovers per game 5 different seasons during his career. Including this one at 3.1.

oRTG (Offensive Rating, look it up!)

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 107 vs 101 (yes even this season he is better than Ellis)
11/12: 125 vs 101
10/11: 116 vs 107
09/10: 118 vs 99

Career: 115 vs 104

Out of that and dRTG (defensive rating) you can calculate an overall win% Ellis: 11/12: .495 10/11: .531 09/10: .471

If not for the widespread delusion here, it should be needless to say that Manu completely blows those numbers away with: .709, .677 and .705

How about some

PER:

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 19 vs 16.2
11/12: 24.1 vs 17.5
10/11: 21.7 vs 18.6
09/10: 22.5 vs 16.7

Yes there is some value in Ellis assists (though Manu ast% is usually better) but he dominates the ball and volume so much that with his well below league average shooting that his teams are often better with him off the floor.

Manu is a much better offensive player while Ellis does his worst damage to his own teams.

The worst thing about Ellis is actually harder to find in various stats. It's on the defensive end of things. Now obviously Manu also blows him away in defensive rating and in some of the new plus minus stats like RAPM (which for many years, killing the noise, has had Manu consistently as one of the best players in the league) but Ellis arms are so short that he can't guard any shooting guards and for him not to be a major liability you'd have to pair him with big PGs who can guard the other team's twos. The list of starting point guards he can be paired with is actually non existant and partnerships with Curry and Jennings were a disaster. Add that incurable problem to his offensive issues and the guy can arguably be unplayable. That is if you want to win basketball games.

Of course frustrations with Manu can be excused and is sometimes perfectly understandable, but when it's gotten to a point where whatever it is, ignorance, stupidity or lame internet-hate, has gotten so delusional that those very people think MONTA ELLIS of all people is a better basketball player than Ginobili and think a team would be better with Monta than Manu, then it's just inexcucable.

But here is to your delusions^^^^^^

Nice post :toast and the numbers don't lie...some people don't realise they are blinded by their cognitive bias

[Kidd K]

So I guess none of you bothered to look at those numbers?

The worst thing about Ellis isn't even his terrible shooting. What it is we'll get to later, but first:

TS%

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 560 vs 493
11/12: 668 vs 493 (518 for GS)
10/11: 581 vs 509
9/10: 584 vs 536

3 point shooting:

Monta is a career .318 three-point shooter vs Manu's .372 This season Monta Ellis shot a pathetic 28 pct attempting 3.8 per game, yes that's worse than Manu's 35 pct attempting 3.9.

Overall he performs this shooting damage (mostly to his own teams) averaging 16.4 field goal attempts during his career. Manu is at 10.6 and of course with a much better true shooting percentage.

Btw Ellis averages more than 3 turnovers per game 5 different seasons during his career. Including this one at 3.1.

oRTG (Offensive Rating, look it up!)

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 107 vs 101 (yes even this season he is better than Ellis)
11/12: 125 vs 101
10/11: 116 vs 107
09/10: 118 vs 99

Career: 115 vs 104

Out of that and dRTG (defensive rating) you can calculate an overall win% Ellis: 11/12: .495 10/11: .531 09/10: .471

If not for the widespread delusion here, it should be needless to say that Manu completely blows those numbers away with: .709, .677 and .705

How about some

PER:

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 19 vs 16.2
11/12: 24.1 vs 17.5
10/11: 21.7 vs 18.6
09/10: 22.5 vs 16.7

Yes there is some value in Ellis assists (though Manu ast% is usually better) but he dominates the ball and volume so much that with his well below league average shooting that his teams are often better with him off the floor.

Manu is a much better offensive player while Ellis does his worst damage to his own teams.

The worst thing about Ellis is actually harder to find in various stats. It's on the defensive end of things. Now obviously Manu also blows him away in defensive rating and in some of the new plus minus stats like RAPM (which for many years, killing the noise, has had Manu consistently as one of the best players in the league) but Ellis arms are so short that he can't guard any shooting guards and for him not to be a major liability you'd have to pair him with big PGs who can guard the other team's twos. The list of starting point guards he can be paired with is actually non existant and partnerships with Curry and Jennings were a disaster. Add that incurable problem to his offensive issues and the guy can arguably be unplayable. That is if you want to win basketball games.

Of course frustrations with Manu can be excused and is sometimes perfectly understandable, but when it's gotten to a point where whatever it is, ignorance, stupidity or lame internet-hate, has gotten so delusional that those very people think MONTA ELLIS of all people is a better basketball player than Ginobili and think a team would be better with Monta than Manu, then it's just inexcucable.

But here is to your delusions^^^^^^

Most of that shit doesn't matter for two big reasons. 1: Manu wasn't 37 4 years ago, so his stats outside of last year don't mean a god damn thing. You can throw everything Manu did outside of last year right out the window because he isn't magically going to get several years younger for those stats to be relevant anymore.

Secondly, how bad Manu actually is is somewhat hidden by the fact that he's on a good team. Monta Ellis played for a shitty team which means his stats (percentages mostly, which is all you posted) are going to be worse because not only is the defense keyed on him but he has little help.

Manu is surrounded by good shooters and defensive gurus on a team with a great system where he doesn't even have to play very many minutes, and when he does it's against a shitty second unit most of the time. Ellis has only played for shitty teams. Offensive and defensive ratings, while nice, more reflect the team they're on than the player themselves. The Spurs as a team have an offensive ratings 5 points higher than the Bucks. Last year it was 6 1/2 points higher. With the Warriors, the Spurs had a 3 points higher offensive rating, but the team at least wasn't awful, which is why Ellis' offensive rating was higher with them.

Speaking of Manu's age and skill regression, notice how even the stats you cherry picked because those were the main (possibly only) stats that were in Manu's favor, all regressed to the lowest points in Manu's career since his first and second seasons. A trend which at best we can hope stops rather than continues.

Instead of cherry picking stats which benefit Manu, let's look at all of them.

Games missed since 2011:

Ginobili: 56Ellis: 6

Turnovers per 36 last year (Ellis plays more minutes, so this is more fair than per game stats):

Ginobili: 3.4
Ellis: 3.0

Minutes played, Ginobili/Ellis:

'10: 28.7 vs 41.4
'11: 30.3 vs 40.3
'12: 23.3 vs 36.6
'13: 23.2 vs 37.5

Btw, Ellis led the NBA in minutes in '10 and '11. Manu wasn't even close.


Turnover % Manu/Ellis:

'12: 16.3 vs 13.2
'13: 17.3 vs 13.7


Oh and Manu's playoff stats:

'12: 17.0 PER
'13: 16.5 PER


'12: 19.8 Turnover%
'13: 19.4 Turnover%

'11: 3.5 TOs/36
'12: 3.9 TOs/36
'13: 3.6 TOs/36

'11: 107 Offensive rating
'12: 106 Offensive rating
'13: 102 Offensive rating

Notice the trend of shittier PER, shittier offensive ratings, increased turnovers.


Yeah, so not only is it not out of the question to expect Manu to be even worse, but it's not out of the question to expect more from Ellis if he got to play in the cushy, king-like mid 20s minutes per game situation Manu has been in rather than have to be a fuckin 40+ minute per game workhorse for shitty teams running their offense and taking the brunt of the opposing team's defensive attention all game.

I'd happily take my chances with the 27 year old Ellis with huge room for improvement considering the great and much easier than what he's used to situation he'd be inheriting here, rather than an aging player who's nowhere near what he used to be and completely let his team and Spurs fans everywhere down in the Finals. Yes, he WAS great. Years ago. Now he isn't. Now he's steadily declining and openly talking about how he hates rehabbing and wants to hang it up.

Feel free to post more stats of years ago though. As if your argument is if we should trade current Ginobili for Ginobili from years ago. Anyone would, but it isn't a possibility. It's current shitty Manu, or take a shot on a 27 year old athletic player who can both easily take Manu's place or fill in for Parker should disaster strike.

Ellis adds more potential to the team. Definitely has holes in his game (bad defense for starters), but his offense and ballhandling aren't things I'm very concerned with. His efficiency would clearly go up if he got Manu's role, and at least he wouldn't have to guard stars for 40 minutes a game anymore.

Manu is just getting worse and played worse and worse as the postseason went on last year. PER went down, efficiency went down, GameScore went down (really far down), turnover% went up. Just about everything got worse and worse, until he finally sucked 5/7 games including a huge disaster game in game 6 which cost us the title.

[benefactor]

So I guess none of you bothered to look at those numbers?

The worst thing about Ellis isn't even his terrible shooting. What it is we'll get to later, but first:

TS%

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 560 vs 493
11/12: 668 vs 493 (518 for GS)
10/11: 581 vs 509
9/10: 584 vs 536

3 point shooting:

Monta is a career .318 three-point shooter vs Manu's .372 This season Monta Ellis shot a pathetic 28 pct attempting 3.8 per game, yes that's worse than Manu's 35 pct attempting 3.9.

Overall he performs this shooting damage (mostly to his own teams) averaging 16.4 field goal attempts during his career. Manu is at 10.6 and of course with a much better true shooting percentage.

Btw Ellis averages more than 3 turnovers per game 5 different seasons during his career. Including this one at 3.1.

oRTG (Offensive Rating, look it up!)

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 107 vs 101 (yes even this season he is better than Ellis)
11/12: 125 vs 101
10/11: 116 vs 107
09/10: 118 vs 99

Career: 115 vs 104

Out of that and dRTG (defensive rating) you can calculate an overall win% Ellis: 11/12: .495 10/11: .531 09/10: .471

If not for the widespread delusion here, it should be needless to say that Manu completely blows those numbers away with: .709, .677 and .705

How about some

PER:

Manu vs Monta

12/13: 19 vs 16.2
11/12: 24.1 vs 17.5
10/11: 21.7 vs 18.6
09/10: 22.5 vs 16.7

Yes there is some value in Ellis assists (though Manu ast% is usually better) but he dominates the ball and volume so much that with his well below league average shooting that his teams are often better with him off the floor.

Manu is a much better offensive player while Ellis does his worst damage to his own teams.

The worst thing about Ellis is actually harder to find in various stats. It's on the defensive end of things. Now obviously Manu also blows him away in defensive rating and in some of the new plus minus stats like RAPM (which for many years, killing the noise, has had Manu consistently as one of the best players in the league) but Ellis arms are so short that he can't guard any shooting guards and for him not to be a major liability you'd have to pair him with big PGs who can guard the other team's twos. The list of starting point guards he can be paired with is actually non existant and partnerships with Curry and Jennings were a disaster. Add that incurable problem to his offensive issues and the guy can arguably be unplayable. That is if you want to win basketball games.

Of course frustrations with Manu can be excused and is sometimes perfectly understandable, but when it's gotten to a point where whatever it is, ignorance, stupidity or lame internet-hate, has gotten so delusional that those very people think MONTA ELLIS of all people is a better basketball player than Ginobili and think a team would be better with Monta than Manu, then it's just inexcucable.

But here is to your delusions^^^^^^
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/13975/earl-campbell-headbutt-o.gif

[benefactor]

I'm sure someone wasted their time reading KiddK's post...but I've heard that shitty song one too many times to bother with listening again