Manu on the Spurs future

[MeloHype]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN0YwcVnAoE&feature=player_embedded

[ironman2886]

:toast

[Agloco]

He's right about Kawahi you know.

[Mr Fundamental]

Great words for Kawhi.

[mikec]

Must be great for Kawhi to hear something like that from Manu.

[hooperflash]

He's right about Kawhi you know.

FIFY, it's a pet peeve of mine :lol although I assume it was just an accident :tu

[Marco]

Too bad TGY cannot post. This was HIS thread.

[apalisoc_9]

Kawhi was the most consistent player in the finals. Duncan, IMO was the best player.

I can understand why he would think that way though.

[hooperflash]

Too bad TGY cannot post. This was HIS thread.

haha what did I miss, Mods finally did something about him?

The kid is probably finishing up watching Bruce's 20 uploads yesterday, tbh. :lol

[Skull-1]

Manu looks youthful there. Hope he rediscovers his mojo next season.

[jag]

It's going to be interesting to see how Kawhi develops when given a little more freedom. It's difficult for me to determine how much of his success is dependent on the Spurs' system.

[stephen jackson]

cow-hi

[UZER]

I really hope Manu redeems himself next year.

[timvp]

The beginning of the video is very interesting. He talks about "24 hours of uncertainty" in the contract negotiations. So obviously, as most of us suspected, the Spurs came at him with a lower number and he wasn't too thrilled. But knowing he has the leverage of a fan revolt if the Spurs let him go, Manu was able to bend the Spurs over and get the top of his market value.

Good business move, tbh.

[apalisoc_9]

The beginning of the video is very interesting. He talks about "24 hours of uncertainty" in the contract negotiations. So obviously, as most of us suspected, the Spurs came at him with a lower number and he wasn't too thrilled. But knowing he has the leverage of a fan revolt if the Spurs let him go, Manu was able to bend the Spurs over and get the top of his market value.

Good business move, tbh.

That or he wasn't sure SAS wanted him back. Lots of way to put it tbh, Specially, when English is not his first language.

[Chinook]

We'll see how this all works out. Truth be told, I'm not that happy with the Belinelli signing. But if the plan is to Horry Ginobili to some extent, then another two-guard was needed. I am pretty excited by the Pendergraph though. It'll be interesting to see how much money they gave him and what role he gets next season. Nothing would make me happier that seeing him work his way onto the floor and add some much-needed athleticism to the big-man rotation. Even if he just sits on the bench, I feel much more comfortable having him there than an old player like Kenyon Martin.

It's up to Ginobili to justify his contract, though.

[DPG21920]

We'll see how this all works out. Truth be told, I'm not that happy with the Belinelli signing. But if the plan is to Horry Ginobili to some extent, then another two-guard was needed. I am pretty excited by the Pendergraph though. It'll be interesting to see how much money they gave him and what role he gets next season. Nothing would make me happier that seeing him work his way onto the floor and add some much-needed athleticism to the big-man rotation. Even if he just sits on the bench, I feel much more comfortable having him there than an old player like Kenyon Martin.

It's up to Ginobili to justify his contract, though.

Its not likely he does. It's not quite fair to evaluate this money from this contract and just this next two years level of play. Its about the business of basketball too. He's a fan favorite and had the Spurs in a tough spot. In all honesty, it could have been even worse.

But, it's reasonable to assume he has a lesser role than last year and at best the same amount of minutes per game. If that is the case, it's already pretty impossible that a guy who can only play 24MPG can justify that much money.

[apalisoc_9]

We'll see how this all works out. Truth be told, I'm not that happy with the Belinelli signing. But if the plan is to Horry Ginobili to some extent, then another two-guard was needed. I am pretty excited by the Pendergraph though. It'll be interesting to see how much money they gave him and what role he gets next season. Nothing would make me happier that seeing him work his way onto the floor and add some much-needed athleticism to the big-man rotation. Even if he just sits on the bench, I feel much more comfortable having him there than an old player like Kenyon Martin.

It's up to Ginobili to justify his contract, though.

I know Ginobili plays a different role than Kawhi, but with all these recent interviews with Pop and now Manu, it looks like the team is now at confident and sure that kawhi would be the third option and would be getting a lot lof touches. I think that's one think to think about if you're going to evaluate Manu's numbers next year.

IMO 13-5-3

Something like that, would be enough to justify his contract, if you consider the business aspect of it as well.

[Baam]

The beginning of the video is very interesting. He talks about "24 hours of uncertainty" in the contract negotiations. So obviously, as most of us suspected, the Spurs came at him with a lower number and he wasn't too thrilled. But knowing he has the leverage of a fan revolt if the Spurs let him go, Manu was able to bend the Spurs over and get the top of his market value.

Good business move, tbh.

Yeah pretty much, pretty funny in retrospect how everyone expected him to take "what would be left"...

I wonder how Tiago's deal factored in the negociation if it did at all. Maybe they told him if you want us to be able to sign Tiago then you take that, and then they had to pay Manu a stupid amount or give both Manu a bit less but didn't have the option to lowball Tiago... Anyways both deal seem terrible to me and I wouldn't be surprised if they were linked to each other...

[therealtruth]

I hope everyone on the team is in agreement we should switch from the TP as the primary point of attack. We've tried it and it has only resulted in playoff failures. That means the Spurs need to find a way for TP to be more useful of the ball whether that means spotting up for corner 3's or running of screens.


I really hope Manu redeems himself next year.

This. Hopefully he can try to emulate '11 Manu. I think the combination of having a good team and Pop treating him like a china-doll. I think that took away from his aggressiveness. That passing routine worked during the regular season and in the earlier rounds of the playoffs but it didn't work in the Finals because the Heat figured he wasn't threat to score himself. Actually the same thing for Splitter. The Heat knew when he got the ball in the post he was looking to pass. He's got to be more aggressive there no matter how ugly it looks.


The beginning of the video is very interesting. He talks about "24 hours of uncertainty" in the contract negotiations. So obviously, as most of us suspected, the Spurs came at him with a lower number and he wasn't too thrilled. But knowing he has the leverage of a fan revolt if the Spurs let him go, Manu was able to bend the Spurs over and get the top of his market value.

Good business move, tbh.


At least the Spurs tried to lower the number. It looks like it could have been worse.

[gameFACE]

Tim makes roughly makes 50% now than his previous contract. But he contributed much more than that. I'm also hoping that Manu can find that gear next post season and justify his roughly 50% new contract. I don't get the sense that he accepts yet what his body can and can't do as Tim has and come up with a plan. Might be harder for him to do so. I'm glad he's still here but I hope he can get through another year of regular and post season. He got healthy at the right time this post season and was still limited. I'm hoping for a Manu "Kerr" Ginobili.

[Chinook]

Its not likely he does. It's not quite fair to evaluate this money from this contract and just this next two years level of play. Its about the business of basketball too. He's a fan favorite and had the Spurs in a tough spot. In all honesty, it could have been even worse.

But, it's reasonable to assume he has a lesser role than last year and at best the same amount of minutes per game. If that is the case, it's already pretty impossible that a guy who can only play 24MPG can justify that much money.

On the contrary, it's not too hard at all for him to live up to his deal. He got paid market value. Had he just not turned the ball over as much against the Heat, there'd be no question the deal was fair. Honestly, so long has he's not broken down by the playoffs, and doesn't go into a slump when he gets there, it should be enough. I'm sure someone will post the win-shares per salary for him, and he'll be fine. And as you said, that doesn't even account for his marketable value.

[Chinook]

I know Ginobili plays a different role than Kawhi, but with all these recent interviews with Pop and now Manu, it looks like the team is now at confident and sure that kawhi would be the third option and would be getting a lot lof touches. I think that's one think to think about if you're going to evaluate Manu's numbers next year.

IMO 13-5-3

Something like that, would be enough to justify his contract, if you consider the business aspect of it as well.

It's just more about Ginobili being able to be a leader in the playoffs. He has to either be able to penetrate or knock down shots. If his body (or the defense) won't let him be the same old Manu, he has to adjust.

[loveforthegame]

He looks rejuvenated there. I was as hard on him as the next guy but I'd love nothing more than for him to come back motivated and on a mission.

Extremely nice words about Kawhi. :tu

[Mel_13]

The beginning of the video is very interesting. He talks about "24 hours of uncertainty" in the contract negotiations. So obviously, as most of us suspected, the Spurs came at him with a lower number and he wasn't too thrilled. But knowing he has the leverage of a fan revolt if the Spurs let him go, Manu was able to bend the Spurs over and get the top of his market value.

Good business move, tbh.

I believe that Manu's words lead to a reasonable conclusion that there was some haggling over his compensation package. It's not nearly as clear that the dispute necessarily affected the first year salary number.

[Mel_13]

Tim makes roughly makes 50% now than his previous contract. But he contributed much more than that. I'm also hoping that Manu can find that gear next post season and justify his roughly 50% new contract. I don't get the sense that he accepts yet what his body can and can't do as Tim has and come up with a plan. Might be harder for him to do so. I'm glad he's still here but I hope he can get through another year of regular and post season. He got healthy at the right time this post season and was still limited. I'm hoping for a Manu "Kerr" Ginobili.

Manu "Barry" Ginobili, tbh.

[ElNono]

It's missing a few parts in spanish... but broadly, what he said on those I translated on that other thread, plus the NT stuff that was already posted, and some small funny parts like "lol timvp, lol Grizzlies in 6", etc...

[Bruno]

My biggest issue with how Ginobili has behaved after the playoffs is that he seemed somewhat fine with how he played. It's like a good game 5 against Miami was enough to please him.

[CitizenDwayne]

My biggest issue with how Ginobili has behaved after the playoffs is that he seemed somewhat fine with how he played. It's like a good game 5 against Miami was enough to please him.

Pretty much. There's been a lot of "we didn't play good enough", not "I didn't play good enough".

Not saying he should be constantly dwelling on it, but owning up to his failures would be nice.

I'm still not sure what kind of realistic numbers I would expect Manu to put up next season, honestly. He's such a wild card it's hard to make an estimate.

[ElNono]

Pretty much. There's been a lot of "we didn't play good enough", not "I didn't play good enough".

Not saying he should be constantly dwelling on it, but owning up to his failures would be nice.

I'm still not sure what kind of realistic numbers I would expect Manu to put up next season, honestly. He's such a wild card it's hard to make an estimate.

"During the Finals I felt I was so so, especially on the games the team needed me the most, games 2, 4 and 6, which were the worst in my case. That hurt me."

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218486

[ChumpDumper]

So-so?

[Whisky Dog]

Honestly I'm disappointed he didn't make a little concession since his shitty play cost the team a championship, but it's a business and he needs to do what's best for him

[ElNono]

So-so?

This was what he wrote in Spanish:

"Durante la final yo me sentí más o menos, sobre todo en los partidos en que el equipo más me necesitaba, el 2, el 4 y el 6, que fueron los peores en mi caso. Eso me dolió."

If anybody has a better translation, chime in...

[CitizenDwayne]

"During the Finals I felt I was so so, especially on the games the team needed me the most, games 2, 4 and 6, which were the worst in my case. That hurt me."

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218486

I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.

Still, "so so" is the understatement of the century. He was dog shit in Game 6. I'm sure he knows that, though, and I hope (though I don't necessarily believe) that that will light a fire in him.

[ElNono]

I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.

Still, "so so" is the understatement of the century. He was dog shit in Game 6. I'm sure he knows that, though, and I hope (though I don't necessarily believe) that that will light a fire in him.

I think that was what Bruno was pointing out. But he did "own up" to his mostly poor games.

[ElNono]

Manu needs to get his shooting touch back... don't know if it's working with Chip during training camp, or just get some strengthening in his legs. We'll see, but that's going to help him and the Spurs a lot.

[m33p0]

no more summer ball, manu. please.

[Brutalis]

All I heard... "I wanted to get paid. I know my game has fallen quite a bit, but you know, I am Manu. I invented the Euro-step remember? Pay me, more than I may deserve, so I can continue to commit game crushing turnovers and miss shots my younger more capable self used to make."

[Agloco]

FIFY, it's a pet peeve of mine :lol although I assume it was just an accident :tu

T'was no accident. I honestly don't (didn't) know how to spell his name. Be prepared to do this for pretty much all of my posts from now on. :lol

[timvp]

I've defended Manu but .............. :lmao @ so-so

If he misses the flight to Miami, we'd be contemplating the elusive back-to-back, tbh.

[ElNono]

:lol don't shoot the messenger

[tmtcsc]

I've defended Manu but .............. :lmao @ so-so

If he misses the flight to Miami, we'd be contemplating the elusive back-to-back, tbh.

I agree. "So-so" was a poor choice of words. I'm thinking "Pretty terrible", "Off my game", "Turnover-prone", "Awful" would have been accurate.

[SpursSerb]

Overpaid and no self-criticism.Pull your head out of your ass Manu.

[Agloco]

A product of being so close to winning it all: More fan hate. smh.

[TheGoldStandard]

It's about what you can expect from Manu..

[sammy]

All I heard... "I wanted to get paid. I know my game has fallen quite a bit, but you know, I am Manu. I invented the Euro-step remember? Pay me, more than I may deserve, so I can continue to commit game crushing turnovers and miss shots my younger more capable self used to make."

Hater GTFO!

[DPG21920]

Manu is being a liar.

[slick'81]

We love u manu

[apalisoc_9]

I've heard Manu use words he didn't mean or didn't make sense at all before. He has criticized his play in finals already.

Maybe it's just a lanauge thing. If you've been around immigrants regardless of how long they've been in the states or any other English speaking nation, they always use terms that donest fit their message. I hope people consider that before jumping to conclusions. And like i've already said, he already criticized his game as bad, why change it to "so-so"?..Poor choice of words i would say.

[DPG21920]

Manu has been a real piece of work from the finals on tbh..He really seems to not care all that much and if this his evaluation (which would explain him taking about as much money as you could expect) then how I feel about him is more than justified.


One subtle thing to look for, which I will preface is strictly speculation on my part, is the trust issue. For the first time ever, there is a risk of TP/TD/Pop not trusting Manu. I think they always did and really could live with him, but deep down they know what cost them the finals. After seeing that and how gutted Duncan was, I don't know if they will ever quite see Manu the same way. Especially if they hear he honestly believes he played so-so.

I'm not saying they won't pass him the ball or even talk bad about him, but the thing that has always been there and allowed this team to win is that trust between Pop/TD/TP/Manu. Will be interesting to see if Pop starts yanking him out of most key moments, not going to him and if the Big 2 don't really see him as a big 3 member any more.

[apalisoc_9]

Manu has been a real piece of work from the finals on tbh..He really seems to not care all that much and if this his evaluation (which would explain him taking about as much money as you could expect) then how I feel about him is more than justified.

Let's hope his choking a** will be able to handle more than 20MPG, play a full season and actually produce for his money.

One subtle thing to look for, which I will preface is strictly speculation on my part, is the trust issue. For the first time ever, there is a risk of TP/TD/Pop not trusting Manu. I think they always did and really could live with him, but deep down they know what cost them the finals. After seeing that and how gutted Duncan was, I don't know if they will ever quite see Manu the same way. Especially if they here he honestly believes he played so-so.

I'm not saying they won't pass him the ball or even talk bad about him, but the thing that has always been there and allowed this team to win is that trust between Pop/TD/TP/Manu. Will be interesting to see if Pop starts yanking him out of most key moments, not going to him and if the Big 2 don't really see him as a big 3 member any more.

You're a very good poster DPG..

But this is utter Bull...

Still not over game 6?:lol

[DPG21920]

He said he played so-so. Not me. He played awful and was the single biggest reason the Spurs aren't champions. He took about as much money as you could expect this off season and gave no discount at all when both TP/TD who have out produced him by far gave discounts to better the team.

I fail to see how that is bs.

If you are speaking about my trust point, ok, I can see how you feel that is bs because that is not substantiated at all. But you see this in sports all the time and it will be interesting to see if this finals broke that bond even a little. Hopefully not and I don't think it's even likely. But I would not be shocked if you see some aspects of that over the course of the season.

[Taking it to the Hole]

My biggest issue with how Ginobili has behaved after the playoffs is that he seemed somewhat fine with how he played. It's like a good game 5 against Miami was enough to please him.

I don't know if he was happy at all with how he played. Even during the Finals, he was saying he was unhappy with his performance. I think the impetus was for him to have a good game eventually because the media, the fans, and the team was expecting him to do so but I think that one game was just a response to all that. I don't think what we saw from Manu this year in the Finals is what we can come to expect in the future. Manu wasn't completely horrible the whole playoffs, just he did not match up well against Miami. I think going into next year, he knows he has a lot to prove to himself as well as the fans so I expect him to come back more aggressive and focused.

[TheGoldStandard]

Manu has been a real piece of work from the finals on tbh..He really seems to not care all that much and if this his evaluation (which would explain him taking about as much money as you could expect) then how I feel about him is more than justified.


One subtle thing to look for, which I will preface is strictly speculation on my part, is the trust issue. For the first time ever, there is a risk of TP/TD/Pop not trusting Manu. I think they always did and really could live with him, but deep down they know what cost them the finals. After seeing that and how gutted Duncan was, I don't know if they will ever quite see Manu the same way. Especially if they hear he honestly believes he played so-so.

I'm not saying they won't pass him the ball or even talk bad about him, but the thing that has always been there and allowed this team to win is that trust between Pop/TD/TP/Manu. Will be interesting to see if Pop starts yanking him out of most key moments, not going to him and if the Big 2 don't really see him as a big 3 member any more.

The dynamic did change but they're professionals and they have a lot of poise so they didn't let it show. The thing is Manu doesn't hold allegiances to Tim or Tony or Pop, he does what's best for Manu. Tony owes his success to Tim and Pop allowing him to develop and having someone who would mentor him and take them under there wing to win. Manu's won without them he's been successful as the star of his teams. I think if there is ever a crack that will be shown it'll be through Tony, he'll make a comment or say something he's the most emotional out of all of them.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Then Pop shouldn't have given Manu those minutes. He is as much to blame. Yanking Duncan at the end of Game 6 is one of the biggest fuck ups in Finals history.

Lots of blame to go around.

[houston spurs fan]

Does Manu have the "Yao Ming" factor in Latin America? I know everyone is ripping him for being overpaid but does he make it up with the extra revenue generated?

[Chinook]

This was what he wrote in Spanish:

"Durante la final yo me sentí más o menos, sobre todo en los partidos en que el equipo más me necesitaba, el 2, el 4 y el 6, que fueron los peores en mi caso. Eso me dolió."

If anybody has a better translation, chime in...

The translation seems good. But maybe it's a matter of framing. Does Ginobili usually come out and say he was bad when the moment calls for it? If he's the type of person who thinks he play ranges from okay to great, then maybe him saying he was "so-so" should be calibrated to mean he thinks he was bad. Regardless, it seems he realizes he let the team down and that that wasn't okay for him to do. So I don't know why so many people are acting like he's saying he felt like he played well enough or something.

[DPG21920]

The translation seems good. But maybe it's a matter of framing. Does Ginobili usually come out and say he was bad when the moment calls for it? If he's the type of person who thinks he play ranges from okay to great, then maybe him saying he was "so-so" should be calibrated to mean he thinks he was bad. Regardless, it seems he realizes he let the team down and that that wasn't okay for him to do. So I don't know why so many people are acting like he's saying he felt like he played well enough or something.

Is that why he gave a discount like TP/TD did to improve the team to make up for it?

[Bruno]

I think going into next year, he knows he has a lot to prove to himself as well as the fans so I expect him to come back more aggressive and focused.

Well next season, he will be one year older, and the logical expectation would be that he won't be as good as this year.

[TheGoldStandard]

Is that why he gave a discount like TP/TD did to improve the team to make up for it?

It would have been fitting if he said, "This was on me, I played poorly and next season and the season after that is not about me, it's about getting Tim a championship that's why I only took 3 Million a season in order to allow the spurs to get the pieces they need"

[Chinook]

Is that why he gave a discount like TP/TD did to improve the team to make up for it?

Make up for it how? It seems like the team got the players it wanted to, seeing how quickly they closed on them. I don't see any issue with Ginobili's deal, especially without knowing how the negotiations went.

[DPG21920]

Make up for it how? It seems like the team got the players it wanted to, seeing how quickly they closed on them. I don't see any issue with Ginobili's deal, especially without knowing how the negotiations went.

Yeesh. Nothing strikes you as odd that the only player of the big 3 not taking a market discount to help the Spurs is the one who let them down the most and is playing the worst?

And while it may be true, I highly doubt the Spurs plan was to spend most of their FA money on lower level bench players, some of whom appear to be redundant/unnecessary.

[Chinook]

It would have been fitting if he said, "This was on me, I played poorly and next season and the season after that is not about me, it's about getting Tim a championship that's why I only took 3 Million a season in order to allow the spurs to get the pieces they need"

Tim has his chance at another championship; he missed it, twice. I doubt very much that he's pointing the finger at Ginobili for the loss the way some fans are.

[Chinook]

Yeesh. Nothing strikes you as odd that the only player of the big 3 not taking a market discount to help the Spurs is the one who let them down the most and is playing the worst?

We don't know what Ginobili's market value was. We say it's about $7 Million a season, but for all we know, Ginobili and the Spurs thought it was higher and worked their way down to the contract he got.

[DPG21920]

We don't know what Ginobili's market value was. We say it's about $7 Million a season, but for all we know, Ginobili and the Spurs thought it was higher and worked their way down to the contract he got.

Well, using logic based on age/production/what Manu or the Spurs have said, what is most likely to you?

[TheGoldStandard]

Tim has his chance at another championship; he missed it, twice. I doubt very much that he's pointing the finger at Ginobili for the loss the way some fans are.

Tim is not that kind of person, I'm sure he blames it on him even though he played 40+ minutes of Game 6 and had 30/17 and 24/12 in game 7.

[DPG21920]

Tim has his chance at another championship; he missed it, twice. I doubt very much that he's pointing the finger at Ginobili for the loss the way some fans are.

That makes sense, because it does not appear Manu is pointing the finger at himself either. He played so-so.

[Chinook]

Well, using logic based on age/production/what Manu or the Spurs have said, what is most likely to you?

Well since we're speaking about market value, the fact that Ginobili is so marketable actually should raise his value even if the stats don't suggest it should. I do think Manu could have gotten a little more, especially since it seems the negotiations were pretty easy. My guess is that the everything happened as quickly as it did because the team didn't really care about how big his deal was, and Ginobili wasn't about to leave the team after he cost them the title. Had he been out on the open market, he probably could have gotten a bigger deal from a team like Cleveland, who could sorely need a veteran with championship experience. A $17-20M/2 deal would not have shocked me, even though I wouldn't have thought he was worth it.

[Chinook]

Tim is not that kind of person, I'm sure he blames it on him even though he played 40+ minutes of Game 6 and had 30/17 and 24/12 in game 7.

He's a person who realizes that if he has the ball with a chance to tie at the end of the game, then his supporting cast has done all he could have expected of them.

[Chinook]

That makes sense, because it does not appear Manu is pointing the finger at himself either. He played so-so.

What part of 'I was okay when the team needed me most. It hurt me,' makes you think he's not pointing the finger at himself?

[Mel_13]

Well, using logic based on age/production/what Manu or the Spurs have said, what is most likely to you?

Manu and the Spurs both know his economic value to the team. It would be naive in the extreme to assume that his economic value to the franchise is not factored into his compensation.

[Bruno]

I've always said that I didn't really have an issue with Manu being more liked than Tony because his personality was way more likable but I have been quite disappointed by how he has acted lately.
His post-finals comments and the fact that he milked Spurs to get a better contract, which likely hurt their chance at improving the team, makes me think that he has lost the fiery competitor part of his personality which I really liked.

[DPG21920]

What part of 'I was okay when the team needed me most. It hurt me,' makes you think he's not pointing the finger at himself?

:lol the part where you know, he was not ok. Where he was awful. The part where TP and TD taking much less than market value (to where there is no debate like there is with Manu) to help the team.

[DPG21920]

Manu and the Spurs both know his economic value to the team. It would be naive in the extreme to assume that his economic value to the franchise is not factored into his compensation.

Sure, I agree. That's why some of us are saying Manu had the Spurs in a bind and made them pay for it. Unlike TP/TD.

[Chinook]

I've always said that I didn't really have an issue with Manu being more liked than Tony because his personality was way more likable but I have been quite disappointed by how he has acted lately.
His post-finals comments and the fact that he milked Spurs to get a better contract, which likely hurt their chance at improving the team, makes me think that he has lost the fiery competitor part of his personality which I really liked.

Didn't some grey just get flamed for suggesting that last week?

[Chinook]

:lol the part where you know, he was not ok. Where he was awful. The part where TP and TD taking much less than market value (to where there is no debate like there is with Manu) to help the team.

It doesn't matter which word he used. He knows he wasn't good enough, and he clearly felt responsible for letting his team down. If there was ever an argument over semantics, this would be it.

[DPG21920]

It doesn't matter which word he used. He knows he wasn't good enough, and he clearly felt responsible for letting his team down. If there was ever an argument over semantics, this would be it.

Well, numerous people besides myself, feel Manu's comments since the finals don't reflect someone who is really beat up over it and understands how bad he really was.

The contract further cements that frame of mind.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Manu's fire diminished once he also had kids :lol

They cheer him up too quickly after losses :lol

[spurs10]

I've defended Manu but .............. :lmao @ so-so

If he misses the flight to Miami, we'd be contemplating the elusive back-to-back, tbh. Ouch!

[Mel_13]

Sure, I agree. That's why some of us are saying Manu had the Spurs in a bind and made them pay for it. Unlike TP/TD.

We still don't know what, if any, difference there was between initial offers from the two sides. There's been an awful lot of supposition based upon nothing much at all.

And while TD certainly could have demanded and received more, there were plenty of folks last summer who thought his deal was too big (and not just the lunatic fringe). Tony's discount is also wildly overblown. People have forgotten the circumstances that existed at the moment Tony agreed to his extension. His leverage vis-a-vis the Spurs at that point in time was extremely limited.

[Chinook]

Well, numerous people besides myself, feel Manu's comments since the finals don't reflect someone who is really beat up over it and understands how bad he really was.

The contract further cements that frame of mind.

I understand why people are upset, but I just think they're making too much of little things. Just like people in the Green/Lebron thread saying Danny should be off the team because he had the nerve to go out right after losing. The fact that Manu didn't start sobbing in a press conference weeks after the Finals doesn't suggest to me he wasn't upset over how he played. The fact that he took a fair contract while the team got the players they wanted doesn't suggest that to me, either.

[DAF86]

What do people want Manu to say? "I suck, I'm old, I'm the worst person on Earth and I feel like killing myself" :lol

He accepted that he played his worst when the team needed him most and that he was hurt. What more do you want? Do you want him to incinerate himself? He's still a human you know with an ego and all that.

I would like to hear Pop's mea culpa about playing Manu too much and leaving Tim on the bench at the end of game 6 and not playing Boris enough on game 7.
I want to hear our best player excuse for going 9 for 35 in the last two games, and the blatant attempt at stealing finals' MVP at the end of game 6.

I'm sick and tired of people blaming the finals loss almost entirely on Manu when others have had just as much if not more blame than him.

[DPG21920]

I understand why people are upset, but I just think they're making too much of little things. Just like people in the Green/Lebron thread saying Danny should be off the team because he had the nerve to go out right after losing. The fact that Manu didn't start sobbing in a press conference weeks after the Finals doesn't suggest to me he wasn't upset over how he played. The fact that he took a fair contract while the team got the players they wanted doesn't suggest that to me, either.

You keep saying that last part and it bothers me. You are being intellectually dishonest. Unless you are saying that realistically the Spurs set out this off season to spend most of the MLE on Belinelli/Pendergraph as their option A.

[DPG21920]

We still don't know what, if any, difference there was between initial offers from the two sides. There's been an awful lot of supposition based upon nothing much at all.

And while TD certainly could have demanded and received more, there were plenty of folks last summer who thought his deal was too big (and not just the lunatic fringe). Tony's discount is also wildly overblown. People have forgotten the circumstances that existed at the moment Tony agreed to his extension. His leverage vis-a-vis the Spurs at that point in time was extremely limited.

Sure there was debate about TD, but nothing close to the Manu debate. Market value is always going to have a range and most know that Tim's contract was better than Manu's with regards to market value. While I somewhat agree about TP, he still could have (in many people's opinion) gotten a much better deal. The fact he didn't have leverage (I disagree there too since letting him go meant blowing it up) isn't a bad point. What is the bad point is Manu did have the leverage and used it.

[DPG21920]

What do people want Manu to say? "I suck, I'm old, I'm the worst person on Earth and I feel like killing myself" :lol

He accepted that he played his worst when the team needed him most and that he was hurt. What more do you want? Do you want him to incinerate himself? He's still a human you know with an ego and all that.

I would like to hear Pop's mea culpa about playing Manu too much and leaving Tim on the bench at the end of game 6 and not playing Boris enough on game 7.
I want to hear our best player excuse for going 9 for 35 in the last two games, and the blatant attempt at stealing finals' MVP at the end of game 6.

I'm sick and tired of people blaming the finals loss almost entirely on Manu when others have had just as much if not more blame than him.

It's not solely on Manu - he's just the main reason the Spurs lost. And no, people don't expect him to say he wants to kill himself. That's hyperbole. But there was a time when Manu would even have one bad regular season game and he looked and sounded like he did want to kill himself. This isn't that any more.

[Chinook]

You keep saying that last part and it bothers me. You are being intellectually dishonest. Unless you are saying that realistically the Spurs set out this off season to spend most of the MLE on Belinelli/Pendergraph as their option A.

They probably did. They might have wanted to throw the MLE at someone else, but that not happening is not Ginobili's fault. The fact that the Spurs kept Bonner suggests they never planned to go under the cap, so Ginobili "not taking a discount" means very little in the grand scheme of things. The only reason why people are acting like it does is because they keep saying, "Well the Spurs could amnesty Bonner and let Neal go, and then..." But the team doesn't seem inclined to get rid of Bonner, and they felt Neal's role was so important that they needed to spend a good chunk of change to fill it. They also felt that Pendergraph was important enough to eat the rest of their exception.

People are mad at Manu due to a hypothetical scenario that we have no reason to believe was ever going to happen. There's nothing logical about positing the team breaking from their usual habits to fulfill our free-agent fantasies.

[ElNono]

You're a very good poster DPG..

But this is utter Bull...

Still not over game 6?:lol

bait, tbh... :lol

[DPG21920]

They probably did. They might have wanted to throw the MLE at someone else, but that not happening is not Ginobili's fault. The fact that the Spurs kept Bonner suggests they never planned to go under the cap, so Ginobili "not taking a discount" means very little in the grand scheme of things. The only reason why people are acting like it does is because they keep saying, "Well the Spurs could amnesty Bonner and let Neal go, and then..." But the team doesn't seem inclined to get rid of Bonner, and they felt Neal's role was so important that they needed to spend a good chunk of change to fill it. They also felt that Pendergraph was important enough to eat the rest of their exception.

People are mad at Manu due to a hypothetical scenario that we have no reason to believe was ever going to happen. There's nothing logical about positing the team breaking from their usual habits to fulfill our free-agent fantasies.

Wow. I just can't believe you even believe that. You might believe the MLE part vs going under the cap. Ok, I don't agree, but I can see the argument. But there is absolutely no way you believe Belinelli/Pendegraph were option A. I refuse to believe you think that is true and I believe you are just using what has happened to then trace the steps backwards and justify it.

[beirmeistr]

If Coach Popovitch had not yanked out Duncan twice in the last 28 seconds of game 6 with a 5 point lead, the Spurs would have won the championship, and Ginobili's contract would not be that controversial. Does Pop take cuts in pay when he screws up? Ginobili is still a very dangerous player when he is on the court. He is the only player I know of that can make both coaches shit in their pants with his style of play.

[DAF86]

It's not solely on Manu - he's just the main reason the Spurs lost. And no, people don't expect him to say he wants to kill himself. That's hyperbole. But there was a time when Manu would even have one bad regular season game and he looked and sounded like he did want to kill himself. This isn't that any more.

Arguable, tbh. What's a bigger fuckup: Manu passing it to Heat players or Pop leaving him on the court even after all those TO's? And as bad as Manu's TO's were if Tony wouldn't have decided to go chucker mode Spurs would have probably won that game.

[Chinook]

Wow. I just can't believe you even believe that. You might believe the MLE part vs going under the cap. Ok, I don't agree, but I can see the argument. But there is absolutely no way you believe Belinelli/Pendegraph were option A. I refuse to believe you think that is true and I believe you are just using what has happened to then trace the steps backwards and justify it.

I think the team had three priorities this off-season: Replace Neal, replace Blair and replacing McGrady. Provided that they wanted to stay over the cap, they would have to use sign-and-trades or the MLE to do those things. I honestly thought they were going to use the MLE on a backup three and call it an off-season while hoping for internal improvement. But the team clearly targeted these players. They might not have been the first choices, but they were essentially the plan.

What is not that easy to assume is what you're assuming, which is that the team intended to use cap space this off-season. Keeping Bonner suggested that wasn't going to happen before Ginobili was even back in the States to sign his deal.

[Mel_13]

Sure there was debate about TD, but nothing close to the Manu debate. Market value is always going to have a range and most know that Tim's contract was better than Manu's with regards to market value. While I somewhat agree about TP, he still could have (in many people's opinion) gotten a much better deal. The fact he didn't have leverage (I disagree there too since letting him go meant blowing it up) isn't a bad point. What is the bad point is Manu did have the leverage and used it.

I really don't want to beat this dead horse much more, but that is a presumption that, while it fits the facts we know, is hardly the only plausible conclusion to be drawn from those facts. I get that people are mad at Manu (my daughter, who loves Manu, keeps asking me "why was Manu even in the game?"), but demonizing him for this contract goes too far for me.

And Tony didn't have much leverage in October, 2010. He was coming off of his worst season, the Spurs had been swept, Tim looked done, and the lockout was looming. Tony made a very sensible business decision to lock in the best offer the Spurs were willing to make at the time. His other choice was to play out the 2010-11 season and take his chances under the new CBA. He chose to take the sure thing and has wildly outplayed his contract. In many ways, Tony was simply the victim of poor timing with the length of his first contract extension. If he had been a free agent in 2009 or 2010, he may very well be playing under a max deal right now. Not necessarily in San Antonio, either.

[Chinook]

Arguable, tbh. What's a bigger fuckup: Manu passing it to Heat players or Pop leaving him on the court even after all those TO's? And as bad as Manu's TO's were if Tony wouldn't have decided to go chucker mode Spurs would have probably won that game.

I agree with what you said about Parker. People seem to keep forgetting that Tony did a good deal of damage in crunch time by calling his own number when he shouldn't have. I also think that Ginobili should have been taken out. But when you're a star player, it's always your fault when you mess up on the court. Ginobili's poor showing is entirely his fault. It's not on Pop that he trusted his former star to get in done one more time.

[DPG21920]

I think the team had three priorities this off-season: Replace Neal, replace Blair and replacing McGrady. Provided that they wanted to stay over the cap, they would have to use sign-and-trades or the MLE to do those things. I honestly thought they were going to use the MLE on a backup three and call it an off-season while hoping for internal improvement. But the team clearly targeted these players. They might not have been the first choices, but they were essentially the plan.

What is not that easy to assume is what you're assuming, which is that the team intended to use cap space this off-season. Keeping Bonner suggested that wasn't going to happen before Ginobili was even back in the States to sign his deal.

Drafting a draft and stash and amnesty on Bonner was more of a cap move than waiving him. Knowing what Manu was going to take salary wise early was critical to cap space as well.

Also, there it is. You don't think Beli/Pend were really the number one options, just options. Also, why would the Spurs go into the off season to replace Neal when they can match any deal he gets? That would only happen if they heard/knew something that suggested they couldn't match then they had to go to plan b or c or whatever. Not plan A.

[HarlemHeat37]

I haven't been paying attention to the Manu threads in the off-season, but it seems like most of this forum has been shitting on him in every thread:lol..

Personally, I don't have a problem with Ginobili's contract..I don't believe the Spurs would have given him that much money if they had big plans to sign a notable name, tbh..I also don't think Manu takes the money if the Spurs tell him they have a plan to sign a big name that will help the team win a title, tbh..

I also figured they would pay him, considering he's been under-paid throughout his career, tbh..

I don't blame Manu for his atrocious series, tbh..I blame the coach that took Duncan out when they needed a rebound, the coach that kept Ginobili in a role that he clearly can't fill anymore..the coach that should have implemented Kawhi as the #3 option when the fans were asking for it since January, tbh..

A coach that admitted that he doesn't run plays for Kawhi and sounded regretful about it, tbh..

Ginobili playing 25 per game is fine, but he shouldn't be a primary facilitator an creator, especially when throughout the playoffs, Leonard had no problems creating for himself in the post and on the wing, tbh..

[Mel_13]

Drafting a draft and stash and amnesty on Bonner was more of a cap move than waiving him. Knowing what Manu was going to take salary wise early was critical to cap space as well.

Also, there it is. You don't think Beli/Pend were really the number one options, just options. Also, why would the Spurs go into the off season to replace Neal when they can match any deal he gets? That would only happen if they heard/knew something that suggested they couldn't match then they had to go to plan b or c or whatever. Not plan A.

There were reports that the Spurs were aware that Neal's price was more than they were willing to pay. you can find them in the Belinelli thread.

[DPG21920]

Huh? If that was the case, why would Woj say the Spurs want Neal and Belinelli?

[TheGoldStandard]

I haven't been paying attention to the Manu threads in the off-season, but it seems like most of this forum has been shitting on him in every thread:lol..

Personally, I don't have a problem with Ginobili's contract..I don't believe the Spurs would have given him that much money if they had big plans to sign a notable name, tbh..I also don't think Manu takes the money if the Spurs tell him they have a plan to sign a big name that will help the team win a title, tbh..

I also figured they would pay him, considering he's been under-paid throughout his career, tbh..

I don't blame Manu for his atrocious series, tbh..I blame the coach that took Duncan out when they needed a rebound, the coach that kept Ginobili in a role that he clearly can't fill anymore..the coach that should have implemented Kawhi as the #3 option when the fans were asking for it since January, tbh..

A coach that admitted that he doesn't run plays for Kawhi and sounded regretful about it, tbh..

The coaching was pretty horrible but considering that they didn't and still don't have anyone else to take the role that was given to Manu as the facilitator makes for a questionable offseason and the fact that the Spurs never change anything mid season also means that if something isn't working they'll just stick with it in hopes it will finally work.

They do need to run plays for Kawhi but I don't know exactly how much of the offense will get tweaked in order to get him the ball. TP runs a lot of the 1st team stuff and Manu comes off the bench and runs it.. Do they actually create a kawhi package this offseason?

[Mel_13]

The coaching was pretty horrible but considering that they didn't and still don't have anyone else to take the role that was given to Manu as the facilitator makes for a questionable offseason and the fact that the Spurs never change anything mid season also means that if something isn't working they'll just stick with it in hopes it will finally work.

They do need to run plays for Kawhi but I don't know exactly how much of the offense will get tweaked in order to get him the ball. TP runs a lot of the 1st team stuff and Manu comes off the bench and runs it.. Do they actually create a kawhi package this offseason?

In 2011-12, Diaw and Jackson were added to the team and the rotation mid season.

In 2012-13, Splitter was moved from the bench to the starting lineup mid season.

[ElNono]

I haven't been paying attention to the Manu threads in the off-season, but it seems like most of this forum has been shitting on him in every thread:lol..

Personally, I don't have a problem with Ginobili's contract..I don't believe the Spurs would have given him that much money if they had big plans to sign a notable name, tbh..I also don't think Manu takes the money if the Spurs tell him they have a plan to sign a big name that will help the team win a title, tbh..

I also figured they would pay him, considering he's been under-paid throughout his career, tbh..

I don't blame Manu for his atrocious series, tbh..I blame the coach that took Duncan out when they needed a rebound, the coach that kept Ginobili in a role that he clearly can't fill anymore..the coach that should have implemented Kawhi as the #3 option when the fans were asking for it since January, tbh..

A coach that admitted that he doesn't run plays for Kawhi and sounded regretful about it, tbh..

Ginobili playing 25 per game is fine, but he shouldn't be a primary facilitator an creator, especially when throughout the playoffs, Leonard had no problems creating for himself in the post and on the wing, tbh..

Actually, IIRC, the other concern I brought up mid-season was the extreme reliance of the offense on the pick & roll... as you state, the lack of diversity there came back to haunt us against the best pick & roll defense in the league...

I don't expect the Spurs to go away from it, but bringing some more playcalling for Kawhi will hopefully alleviate that...

[HarlemHeat37]

Watch Leonard highlights against Miami, even against Lebron, one of the best wing defenders in the NBA, tbh..

There's also Leonard vs. Bulls and Thunder with at least 1 of the big 3 not playing, off the top of my head..

They were giving him the ball and letting him create, which worked well, tbh..

The beauty of Kawhi's game is that he already has advanced post skills for a player his age, and he already has a go-to move on the wing with the drive and pivot fadeaway..he needs to work on his footwork and handles during the off-season, which is what Paul George did last year after displaying the same flaws as Kawhi, tbh..

The Spurs would be fucking foolish if they don't have a vast Leonard package next year, tbh..

[Mel_13]

Huh? If that was the case, why would Woj say the Spurs want Neal and Belinelli?

I'm not going to search for the posts. They do exist if you need to satisfy your curiosity.

[Chinook]

Drafting a draft and stash and amnesty on Bonner was more of a cap move than waiving him. Knowing what Manu was going to take salary wise early was critical to cap space as well.

Also, there it is. You don't think Beli/Pend were really the number one options, just options. Also, why would the Spurs go into the off season to replace Neal when they can match any deal he gets? That would only happen if they heard/knew something that suggested they couldn't match then they had to go to plan b or c or whatever. Not plan A.

Keeping Bonner was probably just that. It wasn't the cap move people were hoping for. There wasn't any reason to think it was, just illogical speculation.

I said that using their MLE to sign players like Belinelli and Pendergraph was probably option A. The fact that it was those players and not others is probably due to the fact that almost everyone got overpaid this off-season. I can't think of another combination of shooters and bigs that could have worked -- maybe Dunlevy and Kenyon Martin? I don't think their first option was to use cap space on a big free agent.

I also assume that they did (and might still) intend to keep Neal. Had they done so, they would have had more of the MLE to do pretty much nothing of importance with. In fact, had the Spurs intended to keep him while also using cap space, they probably would have agreed to a deal with him early. That they didn't and still signed someone to replace him suggests they didn't want to go under the cap.

[DPG21920]

I'm not going to search for the posts. They do exist if you need to satisfy your curiosity.

I saw the posts. What is your response to the Woj tweet?

[HarlemHeat37]

Actually, IIRC, the other concern I brought up mid-season was the extreme reliance of the offense on the pick & roll... as you state, the lack of diversity there came back to haunt us against the best pick & roll defense in the league...

I don't expect the Spurs to go away from it, but bringing some more playcalling for Kawhi will hopefully alleviate that...

Part of the problem was Parker, tbh..

It's blasphemy to criticize Tony Parker here to veteran posters, but his insistence on challenging Lebron in pick&roll and 1-on-1, rather than going to Duncan or Kawhi's mismatch in the post was a major problem with the offense, tbh..

Leonard's post efficiency in the playoffs was elite, tbh, albeit mostly against mismatches when a wing defender would cover Tony, tbh..

[Mel_13]

I saw the posts. What is your response to the Woj tweet?

That there were conflicting reports? Woj is the best, but he's not getting anything straight from Pop or RC (contract numbers, for example).

The Spurs actions, for someone interested in drawing logical conclusions from known facts, are most consistent with the notion that signing Beli means that Neal will not be coming back.

[TheGoldStandard]

In 2011-12, Diaw and Jackson were added to the team and the rotation mid season.

In 2012-13, Splitter was moved from the bench to the starting lineup mid season.

They weren't intricate to the offense.. It wasn't like, we brought in Diaw and Jackson and started calling plays for them same with Splitter.

[Mel_13]

They weren't intricate to the offense.. It wasn't like, we brought in Diaw and Jackson and started calling plays for them same with Splitter.

You're moving the goalposts. My response was based the words you used in your initial post.

[Taking it to the Hole]

I am thinking that the difficulty lies in his conditioning in the offseason. I really do not know what regimen the Spurs have him on but they need to start reconsidering how much they want to use him. Tim was different in the aspect that his game did not diminish substantially because he was always reliant upon his fundamentals and b-ball IQ, whereas Manu had his IQ but also athleticism to boast. Now that he has lost a step, I think he is struggling in compensating for his weaknesses. To be quite honest, Manu always breaks down mid-season at some point and his durability is suspect. Pop managed his minutes pretty well until the point TP got hurt and Manu was forced to play more. I think he needs to learn how to understand his body will not allow him to have the same level of impact he did earlier in his career. I don't think Manu is done by any stretch, he just can't be asked to log consistently significant minutes every game. 15-20 minutes a game seems to be his threshold. Anything more than that and I think the risk for injury increases by the minute.

[weeks]

god damn this forum is all over manu for anything and everything. give the man a break. he's one of us and always will be.

[therealtruth]

Watch Leonard highlights against Miami, even against Lebron, one of the best wing defenders in the NBA, tbh..

There's also Leonard vs. Bulls and Thunder with at least 1 of the big 3 not playing, off the top of my head..

They were giving him the ball and letting him create, which worked well, tbh..

The beauty of Kawhi's game is that he already has advanced post skills for a player his age, and he already has a go-to move on the wing with the drive and pivot fadeaway..he needs to work on his footwork and handles during the off-season, which is what Paul George did last year after displaying the same flaws as Kawhi, tbh..

The Spurs would be fucking foolish if they don't have a vast Leonard package next year, tbh..

I think one of the biggest things to address is that the other team shouldn't be able to put their best defender on TP without Green/Leonard being able to make them pay.



Part of the problem was Parker, tbh..

It's blasphemy to criticize Tony Parker here to veteran posters, but his insistence on challenging Lebron in pick&roll and 1-on-1, rather than going to Duncan or Kawhi's mismatch in the post was a major problem with the offense, tbh..

Leonard's post efficiency in the playoffs was elite, tbh, albeit mostly against mismatches when a wing defender would cover Tony, tbh..

The isos worked really well in game 5 and Parker's bucket that put the lead to 5 in game 6 came of an isolation. The key is that if we could have forced Chalmers to defend TP more we would have walked away with the championship.

[therealtruth]

I am thinking that the difficulty lies in his conditioning in the offseason. I really do not know what regimen the Spurs have him on but they need to start reconsidering how much they want to use him. Tim was different in the aspect that his game did not diminish substantially because he was always reliant upon his fundamentals and b-ball IQ, whereas Manu had his IQ but also athleticism to boast. Now that he has lost a step, I think he is struggling in compensating for his weaknesses. To be quite honest, Manu always breaks down mid-season at some point and his durability is suspect. Pop managed his minutes pretty well until the point TP got hurt and Manu was forced to play more. I think he needs to learn how to understand his body will not allow him to have the same level of impact he did earlier in his career. I don't think Manu is done by any stretch, he just can't be asked to log consistently significant minutes every game. 15-20 minutes a game seems to be his threshold. Anything more than that and I think the risk for injury increases by the minute.

I think it's more Manu's mindset. He needs to look to be more aggressive.

[Leetonidas]

"During the Finals I felt I was so so, especially on the games the team needed me the most, games 2, 4 and 6, which were the worst in my case. That hurt me."

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218486
so so is a very, very generous term

[ElNono]

so so is a very, very generous term

Hey, that's what he said... that was posted in response to a claim of no personal accountability... I think the second part of that sentence is exactly that.

[HI-FI]

hablo un poco de espanol....but maybe "so-so" is Spanish vernacular for fucking shitty or epic chokejob, imho.....

[weebo]

Manu is a pro. Playing basketball is what he does. He'll figure things out physically and he will contribute.

[Leetonidas]

Hey, that's what he said... that was posted in response to a claim of no personal accountability... I think the second part of that sentence is exactly that.
I know Nono I'm not saying you said that but his own evaluation of his game surprises me...no one is usually harder on Manu than himself, so it's kinda weird that most of us felt he played one of if not the worst series in his career and he described his play as "so-so"

[DAF86]

I know Nono I'm not saying you said that but his own evaluation of his game surprises me...no one is usually harder on Manu than himself, so it's kinda weird that most of us felt he played one of if not the worst series in his career and he described his play as "so-so"

If you look at the stats, he had more or less the same numbers he had all season long, which were very "so-so" like. Everybody is blowing Manu's "poor play" way out of proportion because: (a) We lost the series, if we would have won everybody would be talking about his game 5 or his more than decent game 7 showing (b) The TO's on game 6 obviously. But if you look closely at the entirety of the series he pretty much played at the same level he did all year and on the other playoffs series.

[Leetonidas]

Take out game 5 and 7 and it looks awful. And I don't think he was so-so last season, he had the worst season of his career easily. I know he probably has a lot of advanced metrics to say otherwise and probably some nice +/- numbers but going by the eye test Manu just wasn't the Manu we're used to in the 2013 season.

[Sean Cagney]

god damn this forum is all over manu for anything and everything. give the man a break. he's one of us and always will be.

TRUTH!

[DAF86]

Take out game 5 and 7 and it looks awful. And I don't think he was so-so last season, he had the worst season of his career easily. I know he probably has a lot of advanced metrics to say otherwise and probably some nice +/- numbers but going by the eye test Manu just wasn't the Manu we're used to in the 2013 season.

On ST Manu's numbers are seen as good or bad depending on if the Spurs win or lose. The truth is he played the finals on par with how he played all season long, that's why I don't understand the people that put this series loss almost entirely on Manu's back.

[Leetonidas]

Only retards would think that. imo Manu was dogshit most of the Finals but he wasn't the reason the Spurs lost, or at least the sole reason. Obviously if he played better the Spurs have a better chance of winning but what you said is true and that's my point...he was not very good last season and his play in the postseason was the same if not worse. So saying his playoff performance was in line with his regular season only proves that he has definitely started to decline big time last season

[ElNono]

I know Nono I'm not saying you said that but his own evaluation of his game surprises me...no one is usually harder on Manu than himself, so it's kinda weird that most of us felt he played one of if not the worst series in his career and he described his play as "so-so"

I think people had high expectations from him, and I also think that save for a couple games, his shot never really appeared. In general, it's disappointing because he's a guy that normally elevates his game in the playoffs, and this time he couldn't will it, and it didn't happen.

I understand some people are still upset about the finals, and it's difficult for them to move on (not necessarily you), but up to game 6 in that series, turnovers weren't actually his problem at all, his poor shooting was. Something I pointed out at after Game 4. When I said he played 'ok' back then, people said "well, he can't play any worse", well, turns out he can. He only had one "great" game (5), and he had a truly terrible game (6). The rest was indeed so-so (from the optic of what he did all season). It was obviously compounded by poor shooting, which is a bad combo, but it happens.

I'm probably gonna get grilled by some of these thoughts, mostly from people that will keep going back to game 6 and 7, and I understand that the grieving process takes time, so it's fine by me. There's also a lot of glass half-empty feeling here when it comes to Manu or the team overall, and while I understand it, I think it's misguided. They literally had enough, errors and all, to win it all. Literally a bounce away. Against a phenomenal team that dispatched the Durant/Westbrook/Harden OKC in 5 games.

In a way, I think this event will finally make people adjust expectations about Manu. He isn't the 26 year old guy anymore. Even then, he's still damn useful for this team and what this team is trying to do with the personnel it has. They might not make the Finals next season, but as Pop said, people have been predicting the wheels to fall off for way too many years now, and they still have not. So I'm not going to doubt now and just gonna sit back and enjoy whatever they have for us.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's hard to blame other parties when the Spurs' coach could have kept his top 10 all-time big in the game to corral a rebound, tbh..

[Amuseddaysleeper]

It's hard to blame other parties when the Spurs' coach could have kept his top 10 all-time big in the game to corral a rebound, tbh..

Not only that, but way too much Danny Green in Game 7, and way too little Boris Diaw.

[Ice009]

It's hard to blame other parties when the Spurs' coach could have kept his top 10 all-time big in the game to corral a rebound, tbh..

That's the one I am angry with the most. Tim should have been out there to rebound. The thing is though, what if Tim was out there and Miami hit both of those threes on the first shot? It's tough to say that it would have been better to have Tim out there to rebound the ball. IMO, I think it would have been better to have him out there, but Miami might have gotten better looks and made both on the first attempt. Maybe they make the first, and then Pop pulls Tim the second time around and they make that one too. Anything could have happened, even with Tim on the floor it could have all gone wrong in that scenario too, but IMO, the Spurs would have had a better chance with him on then floor than off. You just don't know really, it was a tough situation and decision to make on those two defensive possessions. Really fucked up way to lose the Finals.

Also, the Spurs should never have put Kawhi in the situation of having to hit both of those free throws. He got better as the playoffs went along, but against Goldenstate, he was really struggling to hit his free throws and had to be taken aside by Tim in one of those games to calm him down. Kawhi got much more confident in himself by the time the Spurs made it to the finals (which was very good to see), but I still don't like that the Spurs couldn't get the ball to their best free throw shooters in that situation.

Stupid, stupid mistakes that I am still upset about. Overall, I am OK compared to some of the other posters ;), it's just that every time I recall the end of game 6 and those errors, it's hard not to get mad about it. Spurs threw the Championship away. They gotta be mad about it, and hopefully they use it all of next season to right that wrong.

[HI-FI]

That's the one I am angry with the most. Tim should have been out there to rebound. The thing is though, what if Tim was out there and Miami hit both of those threes on the first shot? It's tough to say that it would have been better to have Tim out there to rebound the ball. IMO, I think it would have been better to have him out there, but Miami might have gotten better looks and made both on the first attempt. Maybe they make the first, and then Pop pulls Tim the second time around and they make that one too. Anything could have happened, even with Tim on the floor it could have all gone wrong in that scenario too, but IMO, the Spurs would have had a better chance with him on then floor than off. You just don't know really, it was a tough situation and decision to make on those two defensive possessions. Really fucked up way to lose the Finals.

Also, the Spurs should never have put Kawhi in the situation of having to hit both of those free throws. He got better as the playoffs went along, but against Goldenstate, he was really struggling to hit his free throws and had to be taken aside by Tim in one of those games to calm him down. Kawhi got much more confident in himself by the time the Spurs made it to the finals (which was very good to see), but I still don't like that the Spurs couldn't get the ball to their best free throw shooters in that situation.

Stupid, stupid mistakes that I am still upset about. Overall, I am OK compared to some of the other posters ;), it's just that every time I recall the end of game 6 and those errors, it's hard not to get mad about it. Spurs threw the Championship away. They gotta be mad about it, and hopefully they use it all of next season to right that wrong.

it just seems in life, it's the self inflicted shit that always gets to you. I'd say I'm dealing with the loss pretty well, then suddenly I think about the self inflicted shit and it pisses me off. mainly that image of Timmy in the dumps is what bothers me the most. as for Pop and Manu, I think the anger from some on here, including myself, is that they didn't seem to realize their mistakes. Manu's comments about "so-so" for an epically shitty performance, Pop's comments after the loss, perhaps felt hollow or misguided compared to that brutal interview with Timmy after the Finals. then again, it's possible that privately both Pop and Manu have taken this very hard and don't want to show that to the media.

There were a ton of mistakes to go around, most caused by the most stacked team in the league. like you said above, it pisses me off to no end that Pop pulled our best rebounder, but who knows, what if they got their 3 off better with Duncan there. You could replay it a bunch of different times. Manu wasn't the only one screwing up, it's just out of the big 3, no one else imploded quite like he did, just an epic shitty Finals from him minus game 5. Even before the turnovers, his passing was atrocious and you knew it was bound to get worse.

You have to wonder what is worse for the team and the fans, to lose the way we did from self inflicted wounds or to get blown out by the Heat. I think as fans, we would've rather avoided :28 seconds, because we have to deal with that shit forever from shithead Laker fans and nothing we can do about it. Perhaps the players would rather have lost the way they did, because if they simply got blown out, maybe they'd feel it's time to call it quits and phone it in, but perhaps seeing how they could've easily won against the supposedly unstoppable Heat, maybe it reenforces a belief or confidence.

[spurspokesman]

Manu has been a real piece of work from the finals on tbh..He really seems to not care all that much and if this his evaluation (which would explain him taking about as much money as you could expect) then how I feel about him is more than justified.


One subtle thing to look for, which I will preface is strictly speculation on my part, is the trust issue. For the first time ever, there is a risk of TP/TD/Pop not trusting Manu. I think they always did and really could live with him, but deep down they know what cost them the finals. After seeing that and how gutted Duncan was, I don't know if they will ever quite see Manu the same way. Especially if they hear he honestly believes he played so-so.

I'm not saying they won't pass him the ball or even talk bad about him, but the thing that has always been there and allowed this team to win is that trust between Pop/TD/TP/Manu. Will be interesting to see if Pop starts yanking him out of most key moments, not going to him and if the Big 2 don't really see him as a big 3 member any more. I mentioned in the game thread of the finals that TD looked manu off after manu had called for the ball and passed to green of all people. That's all the indication of not trusting someone that i need.

[therealtruth]

That's the one I am angry with the most. Tim should have been out there to rebound. The thing is though, what if Tim was out there and Miami hit both of those threes on the first shot? It's tough to say that it would have been better to have Tim out there to rebound the ball. IMO, I think it would have been better to have him out there, but Miami might have gotten better looks and made both on the first attempt. Maybe they make the first, and then Pop pulls Tim the second time around and they make that one too. Anything could have happened, even with Tim on the floor it could have all gone wrong in that scenario too, but IMO, the Spurs would have had a better chance with him on then floor than off. You just don't know really, it was a tough situation and decision to make on those two defensive possessions. Really fucked up way to lose the Finals.

Also, the Spurs should never have put Kawhi in the situation of having to hit both of those free throws. He got better as the playoffs went along, but against Goldenstate, he was really struggling to hit his free throws and had to be taken aside by Tim in one of those games to calm him down. Kawhi got much more confident in himself by the time the Spurs made it to the finals (which was very good to see), but I still don't like that the Spurs couldn't get the ball to their best free throw shooters in that situation.

Stupid, stupid mistakes that I am still upset about. Overall, I am OK compared to some of the other posters ;), it's just that every time I recall the end of game 6 and those errors, it's hard not to get mad about it. Spurs threw the Championship away. They gotta be mad about it, and hopefully they use it all of next season to right that wrong.

You're making it more complicated than it is. TD is one of the best defenders and rebounders to play the game ever. It was the most important defensive stop in Spurs history. You play him. It's that simple.

Gary Neal has more lateral quickness than Tim but he's a horrible defender. Just because you have quicker guys out there doesn't mean your going to play better defense. Having better defenders does.

[Ice009]

You're making it more complicated than it is. TD is one of the best defenders and rebounders to play the game ever. It was the most important defensive stop in Spurs history. You play him. It's that simple.

Gary Neal has more lateral quickness than Tim but he's a horrible defender. Just because you have quicker guys out there doesn't mean your going to play better defense. Having better defenders does.

I would have had Tim on the court in that scenario 100% of the time if it was my decision on those two possessions. I was just saying there is still a small chance that might not have worked out even with him out there.