262 mpg

[InRareForm]

http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/07/09/a-car-that-gets-262-mpg/

[Blake]

No power steering?

I'd gladly settle for 200mph to have power steering

[spursncowboys]

10 billion spent on research...I wonder what the price tag would be

[RandomGuy]

http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/07/09/a-car-that-gets-262-mpg/

You might want to also post:

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/volkswagen-xl1-wheeling-262-mpg-orb-motoramic-drives-172831276.html

Since the dawn of the combustion age, true car nuts have disdained gas mileage as the obsession of the weak-minded and unskilled; there’s no bigger punchline in the business than the Toyota Prius. The success of the Tesla Model S has begun to change the culture, but when it comes to supercars, faster and more powerful roughly equals better, while efficiency gets dismissed with prejudice.


Well, the Volkswagen XL1 may be the transformative alternative-energy vehicle, the one that finally arouses the car fiend from his gas-hungry stupor. The XL1 is a different conception of a car, a German engineer’s dream of hyper-miling. It contains no driving joy or spirit, just lots of cool, stripped-down design details, an anschulss of movement and MPG that gets an average of 262 mpg. This is ze car we’ve been waiting for.

The XL-1 doesn’t have a rear-view mirror, which makes sense, since it also doesn’t have a rear window. Other things not present in this car: Wheels thicker than a street bike’s, a backseat, or any semblance of wind resistance. It has a drag coefficient of 0.189, which, if you’re not keeping score, is almost impossibly low, less that your average bumblebee’s. Because of this, its engineers claim the XL1 can glide at reasonable speed on the autobahn using only eight horsepower.


Now that I’ve actually driven the XL1 on the highway, I don't doubt it. The thing is so compact and thin I’m surprised they didn’t just slip it underneath my hotel-room door along with my departure notice. The XL1 looks like a Blade Runner hovercar and drives like something from Disneyland’s Autopia, but without the attendant stink. Though it has an “S” mode, which ostensibly means “sport,” you’d be hard-pressed to detect such a function in the powertrain. “This,” one of its engineers told me in Germany last week, “was not the focus of our development.”

The XL1 represents the car as blue-ribbon science fair project. But unlike other megacars, which are built to maximize speed and power, this one, more than ten years and upward of a billion dollars in the designing, contains not one centimeter of wasted space or poundage. The engineers eliminated power steering because it would have added 10 kilograms. For maximum lightness, the core of its body and chassis is comprised of a one-piece molded carbon-fiber monocoque. The magnesium wheels get wrapped in custom-light Michelin rubber. The windows lower with hand cranks. There’s no radio — the sound system wraps through the Garmin GPS — and no place to plug in your smartphone, because Bluetooth is lighter.


All of this results in a car that weighs 1,753 lbs. Under its rear hatch lies a two-cylinder diesel that generates 47 hp, which would have been fairly weak in 1960, much less in the era where the average Hyundai generates up to 200 hp. The XL1 has a 27-hp electric battery, which can propel it about 31 miles on its own, up to 62 mph. It can fully recharge, Volkswagen says, in an hour and a half. The maximum speed overall, using the full hybrid drivetrain, is 94 mph. There’s a 2.6-gallon fuel tank, which lets the XL1 achieve a total range of 310 miles — since it can't be run at maximum efficiency all of the time.


The car is a design marvel, with a front that looks as smooth and modern as a Mercedes S-class, and a rear that doesn’t so much taper off as disappear into the void. Even the rear wheels are hidden by metal coverings, making it look like the car is balancing entirely on its forelegs. When viewed from the rear, XL1 is angular and beautiful, a shiny metal bolt, or maybe a super suppository.

In true supercar fashion, the doors open in dramatic gull-wing style, making the XL1 look like a personalized drone. When both are up, the car’s cockpit manifests dramatically, like a robot Easter egg. The trunk opens with less style, but contains a nifty-looking carbon-fiber XL1 logo, and enough cargo space to hold a small weekend bag.


Inside, the seats are high-end canvas, looking appreciably cool and sporty. Everything else is streamlined and light. The steering wheel has a flat bottom, like a race car’s, or at least a racing simulator’s. In general, “simulated” is the best way to describe the way the XL-1 drives.


To repeat, the car has no rear-view mirror. It also doesn’t have side mirrors, which the engineers replaced to reduce drag. In their place are side-mounted cameras, meaning that when you drive the car, you have to watch two camera feeds at once at once to not only monitor your blind spots, but every spot. “We are convinced that the side cameras are enough,” an engineer told me. “It’s difficult when you first start but you get used to it.”


I must respectfully dissent. The XL1’s other quirks, like the whooshing sound of the carbon-disc brakes, the strange growly noises the engine makes in diesel mode, and the lack of power steering, not to mention the raw, low overall feel of the ride — those I could get used to. It’s what you’d expect out of a hyper-miled car. You have to sacrifice a little comfort and performance. But for a car you need to drive yourself, one that contains no lane-departure warnings or other modern safety features, not having a rear-view mirror is just dangerous.


This wasn’t a carnival ride or a test-track. I took the XL1 into city traffic, in a foreign country, in the middle of the afternoon, and it was terrifying. Trying to wrench the steering wheel was hard enough, though I figured it out after a while. Also, I drive a lot of hybrids, so I didn’t find the lack of pickup in the XL1 disturbing. But I did find it hard to enjoy the fact that I was getting the best gas mileage of all time because I could not really see behind me. You try that sometime.


When I hit the highway, things got better. The XL1 was actually better to drive at higher speeds. It got up to 140 kmh in due time, and held its speed without trouble. Sure enough, I could feel the glide. It was almost counter-intuitive. These kinds of cars are supposed to be better in the city, but this one almost felt like a cross-country runner, tireless, with hidden reserves. Also, there wasn’t as much traffic, so it removed a certain level of panic from the experience.


Later, at a lecture about the car, one of the engineers said, “There are technology enthusiasts who say the XL1 is perfect, but others who say it’s not good enough yet.” I’m not sure where I fall on that scale, honestly. I’m also not sure that the XL1 really exists outside of an R&D concept.


Volkswagen has made 50 of them so far. They’re using a few for test-driving, and the rest are currently in the hands of fortunate Eurozone residents who won an essay contest about green energy and urban design. The plan, VW says, is to manufacture about 250 total, but they won’t say whether they plan to sell or less them, won’t say exactly when, and won’t give an idea about how much they’re going to cost. It’s only going to be Europe, though; residents of North America will either have to spot a rarity in the wild or see one in a museum in the future.


There’s also no indication of what extraordinary XL1 related tech, other than the two-cylinder hybrid drive-train, already in use in VW’s Up! budget compact, will appear in other Volkswagen group cars. I suspect that the XL1’s brave new ground in airflow intake will affect how we drive in the future, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see carbon-fiber creep as the public begins to relentlessly clamor for more monocoque. In the future, hopefully, more cars will be small and weird and cool and slow and awesome and really fuel-efficient.


Let’s just hope they have rear-view mirrors.


http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/5cNjybYl4b.Mbjxv7RYT.Q--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYxMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en-US/blogs/motoramic/croplaidoutparts.jpg

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/V.zP.OuUBA35aBAlC95SRA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYwOQ--/http://media.zenfs.com/en-US/blogs/motoramic/xl1driveshow.jpg

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/VtyIiRNbol.nCZsLPLDYbA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTMwMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en-US/blogs/motoramic/tallxl1.jpg
..

[Fabbs]

No power steering?

I'd gladly settle for 200mph to have power steering
:lol yep.
The gas and oil pigs never miss a chance to purposely screw up an effective vehicle to their guzzler$$.

[RandomGuy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monocoque

[boutons_deux]

Not needed in the USA. Repug's bullshit of Drill Here, Drill Now will make gasoline and gas guzzlers (eg, pickups) under $1/gallon! :lol

[boutons_deux]

Meanwhile, in the Real World, taxpayer-rescued G fucking M has a winner: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130530/CARREVIEWS/130539995

but:

Why has diesel fuel been more expensive than gasoline?

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=9&t=5

If govt taxed gasoline way above diesel, we'd have a huge win, but BigOil sets govt policy, not Human-Americans or the "free market"

[CubanMustGo]

God, boutons, if you would occasionally take the initiative to NOT spout your party line it would make you much more effective. And I lean more your way than the other.

[RandomGuy]

10 billion spent on research...I wonder what the price tag would be

Well, the R & D would actually be spread over all the cars the company sells. Whatever tech or design innovations they got for one model can be applied to any other car the company makes.

First production lot, like any new product would be for the early adopters and cost a good chunk of change, with the price coming down over time as the production line's learning curve and volume starts distributing the fixed costs over more units.

Too hard to say what the price for a production model would be.

Add other new tech to this design, and we could be squeezing a lot of transportation out of much smaller amounts of fuel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_disk_engine


I think though, we will be driving a lot less overall. Kids are starting to wait longer to get cars, and tend to view them a lot different than their parents did.


We sit around in traffic jams enough as it is. The time and money wasted on cars is beginning to tilt the economic balance to mass transit.

A month or so's commute into/out of Austin will cure one of the desire to drive to work real quick.

[boutons_deux]

God, boutons, if you would occasionally take the initiative to NOT spout your party line it would make you much more effective. And I lean more your way than the other.

party? :lol

[scott]

If govt taxed gasoline way above diesel, we'd have a huge win, but BigOil sets govt policy, not Human-Americans or the "free market"




Are you trying to suggest that "taxing gasoline way above fuel" would somehow be a "free market" solution?

[boutons_deux]

Are you trying to suggest that "taxing gasoline way above fuel" would somehow be a "free market" solution?

I'd much rather the price going to the govt, where it can do some good for the 99%, than subsidizing BigOil and its 1% investors.

Govt policies promoting the welfare of the 99% and the environment are the only tool we have to counter the BigCarbon self-enriching, predatory cartel's stranglehold.

[scott]

I'd much rather the price going to the govt, where it can do some good for the 99%, than subsidizing BigOil and its 1% investors.

Govt policies promoting the welfare of the 99% and the environment are the only tool we have to counter the BigCarbon self-enriching, predatory cartel's stranglehold.

'snot what I asked

[boutons_deux]

'snot what I asked

the mythical "free market", in context of BigCarbon market domination and its total capture of govt at all levels? :lol

[TeyshaBlue]

I'd much rather the price going to the govt, where it can do some good for the 99%, than subsidizing BigOil and its 1% investors.

Govt policies promoting the welfare of the 99% and the environment are the only tool we have to counter the BigCarbon self-enriching, predatory cartel's stranglehold.

I know we've been through this before, but you do realize that the majority of these "subsidies" are for the small producers, right?

Of course not. Thinkprogress hasn't told you to think that.

[scott]

the mythical "free market", in context of BigCarbon market domination and its total capture of govt at all levels? :lol

Also not what I asked.

[boutons_deux]

Are you trying to suggest that "taxing gasoline way above fuel" would somehow be a "free market" solution?

no :lol

suggestion: quit sanctifying, adoring "free market" right-wing bullshit. When Repug/conservatives lie about "free markets", what they really want is govt emasculated so the corrupt, criminal, rigged financial and corporate sectors to be "free" to rape us and the environment harder and deeper.

[scott]

no :lol

suggestion: quit sanctifying, adoring "free market" right-wing bullshit. When Repug/conservatives lie about "free markets", what they really want is govt emasculated so the corrupt, criminal, rigged financial and corporate sectors to be "free" to rape us and the environment harder and deeper.

Can you provide evidence of this alleged "sanctifying/adoring"?

[TeyshaBlue]

:lol

[boutons_deux]

Can you provide evidence of this alleged "sanctifying/adoring"?

are you serious? of coursnot

[scott]

are you serious? of coursnot

then shut the fuck up already

[boutons_deux]

then shut the fuck up already

GFY, and ask me only "serious" questions

[AntiChrist]

Wow. That car sounds safe. At least you won't spend a lot on gas on the way to your death. As an added bonus, the vehicle doubles as a casket.

[spursncowboys]

Well, the R & D would actually be spread over all the cars the company sells. Whatever tech or design innovations they got for one model can be applied to any other car the company makes.

First production lot, like any new product would be for the early adopters and cost a good chunk of change, with the price coming down over time as the production line's learning curve and volume starts distributing the fixed costs over more units.

Too hard to say what the price for a production model would be.

Add other new tech to this design, and we could be squeezing a lot of transportation out of much smaller amounts of fuel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_disk_engine


I think though, we will be driving a lot less overall. Kids are starting to wait longer to get cars, and tend to view them a lot different than their parents did.


We sit around in traffic jams enough as it is. The time and money wasted on cars is beginning to tilt the economic balance to mass transit.

A month or so's commute into/out of Austin will cure one of the desire to drive to work real quick.
:lol yeah I heard about Austin's traffic. Still I don't think today's generation is less materialistic as ours. People will always buy the new car.

[CosmicCowboy]

There are quite a few high MPG diesel vehicles already being sold in Europe. Unfortunately they can't be sold in the US because of the EPA.

[boutons_deux]

There are quite a few high MPG diesel vehicles already being sold in Europe. Unfortunately they can't be sold in the US because of the EPA.

what EPA rule is stopping Euro diesels?

2014 BMW 328d Diesel Sedan Officially Debuts, All-Wheel-Drive Wagon Variant Coming (http://blog.caranddriver.com/2014-bmw-328d-diesel-sedan-officially-debuts-all-wheel-drive-wagon-variant-coming/)


http://blog.caranddriver.com/2014-bmw-328d-diesel-sedan-officially-debuts-all-wheel-drive-wagon-variant-coming/

[CosmicCowboy]

Nox

There are a bunch of cars in Europe getting 60-70mpg that can't be sold in the US because of EPA regs.

[CosmicCowboy]

Boutons again arguing about stuff he doesn't know shit about.

[boutons_deux]

VW has been selling diesels in US for years, passat, jetta.... and they have high MPG and resale value

[RandomGuy]

:lol yeah I heard about Austin's traffic. Still I don't think today's generation is less materialistic as ours. People will always buy the new car.

Not exactly materialism, just a different mindset about the expense and cost vehicles represent.

[Sportcamper]

I think all Cosmic is saying is that Europe does not have the EPA standards that we have stateside & they are able to sell cars that don’t meet our standards…This is old news right?

[boutons_deux]

Fuel taxes by country

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/tab/all/data_set/10327

note almost all countries except use have lower taxes on diesel to dissuade gasoline's lower mileage

but in USA, where BigOil sets govt policy, it's the reverse. BigOil is setup to refine/sell gasoline so that's what policies BigOil pays for govt policies to favor.

[CosmicCowboy]

VW has been selling diesels in US for years, passat, jetta.... and they have high MPG and resale value

Not the same, Boutons. Why insist on arguing about something you know nothing about?

[TeyshaBlue]

VW has been selling diesels in US for years, passat, jetta.... and they have high MPG and resale value

And they've spent beaucoup bucks modifying the powertrains to meet US regs. Not every manufacturer can nor wants to spend that kind of cash for what is still a very niche us market.

[TeyshaBlue]

Not the same, Boutons. Why insist on arguing about something you know nothing about?

Why would he stop now?:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

Fuel taxes by country

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/data/tab/all/data_set/10327

note almost all countries except use have lower taxes on diesel to dissuade gasoline's lower mileage

but in USA, where BigOil sets govt policy, it's the reverse. BigOil is setup to refine/sell gasoline so that's what policies BigOil pays for govt policies to favor.

The extra cost of diesel is not taxes dumbass. It's the refining process to extract the sulphur content that's adding to the cost. Europe doesn't have anywhere near the regulations concerning sulphur that the US does. That's the work of the EPA, not "Big Oil". Outside of Mexico and Chile, the US has the lowest tax on diesel @.59/gal.

[boutons_deux]

Not the same, Boutons. Why insist on arguing about something you know nothing about?

any of your unspecified Euro diesels that get 60+ mpg are most likely MICRO cars that are such a tiny segment in USA, they aren't worth marketing.

[CosmicCowboy]

any of your unspecified Euro diesels that get 60+ mpg are most likely MICRO cars that are such a tiny segment in USA, they aren't worth marketing.

Wrong as usual dumbshit. Is your computer just stuck on thinkprogress? Ever heard of google?

http://www.hybridcars.com/lusting-europe-illegal-high-mpg-cars-25323/

[Wild Cobra]

10 billion spent on research...I wonder what the price tag would be

Divided by 1,000 cars, that would be $10 million each plus manufacturing costs plus profit.

The millage in the article title cannot be right.

They say 310 mile range, 31 miles on the battery. That leaves 279 miles on 2.6 gallons, or 107 MPG.

[Wild Cobra]

Well, the R & D would actually be spread over all the cars the company sells. Whatever tech or design innovations they got for one model can be applied to any other car the company makes.


Yep.

10,000,000 cars at $10 billion... $1,000 each just for R&D costs.

I don't think they can sell anywhere near that number.

as for applying it to other cars? Who wants a car with no power steering? Who wants a car designed solely for a small drag coefficient? Who want an electric with only a 31 mile range before the fuel starts pumping?

[Wild Cobra]

There are quite a few high MPG diesel vehicles already being sold in Europe. Unfortunately they can't be sold in the US because of the EPA.

Very true.

As for the 262 MPG claim, that must be based on equivalent electricity. Then one is limited to 31 miles between charging the battery.

[Wild Cobra]

VW has been selling diesels in US for years, passat, jetta.... and they have high MPG and resale value

Yes, but they don't get the same milage as theor european counterparts.

Even our gasoline vehicles could probably get 20% better fuel economy if the fuel blend and combustion process wasn't tailored for near zero emissions.

[Wild Cobra]

I think all Cosmic is saying is that Europe does not have the EPA standards that we have stateside & they are able to sell cars that don’t meet our standards…This is old news right?

Yep, but not common knowledge.

[AntiChrist]

Yep.

10,000,000 cars at $10 billion... $1,000 each just for R&D costs.

I don't think they can sell anywhere near that number.

as for applying it to other cars? Who wants a car with no power steering? Who wants a car designed solely for a small drag coefficient? Who want an electric with only a 31 mile range before the fuel starts pumping?


Per the article, they are only making 250 units.

[AntiChrist]

First iteration of this thing. Looks like one of those pneumatic tubes at the bank.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/VW_L1.JPG/701px-VW_L1.JPG

[Wild Cobra]

Per the article, they are only making 250 units.
LOL...

I didn't read the whole thing.

Ouch!

[Wild Cobra]

First iteration of this thing. Looks like one of those pneumatic tubes at the bank.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/VW_L1.JPG/701px-VW_L1.JPG

They probably get the 262 MPG by drafting off of cars and truck.

[boutons_deux]

Yes, but they don't get the same milage as theor european counterparts.

link?

[boutons_deux]

Europe don't have any oil, and they buy $ so they can buy oil, so they know their wealth is being exported, drained away, giving them huge incentive to look into reducing oil purchases for transport.

[boutons_deux]

Why Do European Cars Get Better MPG Than US Cars? (http://jalopnik.com/5981938/why-do-european-cars-get-better-mpg-than-us-cars)

http://jalopnik.com/5981938/why-do-european-cars-get-better-mpg-than-us-cars

[RandomGuy]

Yep.

10,000,000 cars at $10 billion... $1,000 each just for R&D costs.

I don't think they can sell anywhere near that number.

as for applying it to other cars? Who wants a car with no power steering? Who wants a car designed solely for a small drag coefficient? Who want an electric with only a 31 mile range before the fuel starts pumping?

Tech such as forming body parts from carbon composites, metallurgy, and so forth. You are focusing on the stuff mentioned in the article, and not imagining all the other things that went into this project.

Cars are complex things, and the innovation on the thousands of parts that go into a car can be applied to other line vehicles. Spin-off technology and manufacturing methods will affect other lines of cars that the engineers at VW will make. Knowledge is cumulative.

[AntiChrist]

Tech such as forming body parts from carbon composites, metallurgy, and so forth. You are focusing on the stuff mentioned in the article, and not imagining all the other things that went into this project.

Cars are complex things, and the innovation on the thousands of parts that go into a car can be applied to other line vehicles. Spin-off technology and manufacturing methods will affect other lines of cars that the engineers at VW will make. Knowledge is cumulative.


What's the real innovation here? Seems like this is mostly about making a very lightweight aerodynamic vehicle. College students have been making these hypermililng vehicles in competitions for years, but you wouldn't want to drive one on the freeway.

[RandomGuy]

What's the real innovation here? Seems like this is mostly about making a very lightweight aerodynamic vehicle. College students have been making these hypermililng vehicles in competitions for years, but you wouldn't want to drive one on the freeway.


In 2010, Volkswagen, posted record sales of 6.29 million vehicles, with its global market share at 11.4%

Yearly sales of 6.29M, means that their future sales will benefit from what they have developed here over the last years.

You are close, it is about making this a lightweight vehicle. You just are failing to use your imagination as to how that might be applied to other models, and lack the knowledge about how such costs are carried by ongoing enterprises.

The calcualtion isn't quite as simple as $10bn/250. That is a misleading oversimplification that leads one to incorrect conclusions about the efficacy of the project. Simply not enough data yet to see if the R & D pays off.

[scott]

link?

Well for a quick basic comparison, Audi lists their A3 as 6.6-3.8L/100KM and their A4 at 8.1-4.3/100KM in Germany. If my math is right, that equates to 36 city/62 hwy for the A3 & 29 city/46 hwy for the A4.

But neither of these cars are available in the US, and compare that to a TDI VW Jetta which only gets 30 city/42 hwy

[TeyshaBlue]

Well for a quick basic comparison, Audi lists their A3 as 6.6-3.8L/100KM and their A4 at 8.1-4.3/100KM in Germany. If my math is right, that equates to 36 city/62 hwy for the A3 & 29 city/46 hwy for the A4.

But neither of these cars are available in the US, and compare that to a TDI VW Jetta which only gets 30 city/42 hwy

There you go all sanctifying and adoring again.:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

The A3 is coming 2014 tho.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/first-looks/2014-audi-a3-sedan

[boutons_deux]

saw an Audi 8L on I10 West, truecar says about $80K

[scott]

The A3 is coming 2014 tho.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/first-looks/2014-audi-a3-sedan

We used to get the A3, in fact I didn't realize they stopped. I'm interested in the sedan and sportback when they come. I'm about a year out from trading in my Hybrid Camry, always wanted an Audi. Having the TDI A3 (or A4 or A6 for that matter) would push me to make the move.

[scott]

saw an Audi 8L on I10 West, truecar says about $80K

I thought we used to get Audi TDI's in the smaller models, currently only available in the Q7 and A8.

[leemajors]

Tech such as forming body parts from carbon composites, metallurgy, and so forth. You are focusing on the stuff mentioned in the article, and not imagining all the other things that went into this project.

Cars are complex things, and the innovation on the thousands of parts that go into a car can be applied to other line vehicles. Spin-off technology and manufacturing methods will affect other lines of cars that the engineers at VW will make. Knowledge is cumulative.

VW is also changing their platform, interesting read here:

http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-plans-to-take-over-the-world-by-being-clever-646936695

[TeyshaBlue]

We used to get the A3, in fact I didn't realize they stopped. I'm interested in the sedan and sportback when they come. I'm about a year out from trading in my Hybrid Camry, always wanted an Audi. Having the TDI A3 (or A4 or A6 for that matter) would push me to make the move.

Just Googled them......Damn, they've been here since 2006. :wow Talk about stealth advertising. Never even seen one, much less an advert for one.

[scott]

Just Googled them......Damn, they've been here since 2006. :wow Talk about stealth advertising. Never even seen one, much less an advert for one.

But they aren't currently advertised on the audiusa.com, which means I assume they were discontinued. The 2014 looks pretty sweet though. Hoping we do get the Sportback

[Leetonidas]

Better never crash in that thing, your ass is fucking dead :lol

[Wild Cobra]

Tech such as forming body parts from carbon composites, metallurgy, and so forth. You are focusing on the stuff mentioned in the article, and not imagining all the other things that went into this project.

Cars are complex things, and the innovation on the thousands of parts that go into a car can be applied to other line vehicles. Spin-off technology and manufacturing methods will affect other lines of cars that the engineers at VW will make. Knowledge is cumulative.
Yes, I understand how spinoff technology is valuable. I still couldn't resist the opportunity to make fun of the price.

[boutons_deux]

another contribution to US cars having lower mileage is the stupid, avoid unavoidable inclusion of less energy dense ethanol in gasoline.

[Wild Cobra]

another contribution to US cars having lower mileage is the stupid, avoid unavoidable inclusion of less energy dense ethanol in gasoline.
Now this and your imperial gallons argument are actually good ones. How about sticking to the good arguments, and stop posting most the bullshit you do?

[boutons_deux]

Now this and your imperial gallons argument are actually good ones. How about sticking to the good arguments, and stop posting most the bullshit you do?

how about GFY, OVER AND OVER AND OVER