Nash: Dwight refused to run PNR offense

[StrengthAndHonor]

Interesting how all these are coming out


Nash said Howard had "difficulties assimilating" with the Lakers in his only season with the team mostly because of health issues. Howard was coming off back surgery and also suffered a torn labrum in his shoulder that forced him to miss six games. Nash lumped himself and Pau Gasol as players who also were hampered by lingering injuries that ended up hurting the Lakers.

"When you're talking about three guys you're really going to rely on that aren't themselves, this league is too good [to disregard that handicap]," Nash said.

However, Nash said that X's and O's played just as big a part with Howard as health did.

"He didn't seem like he really wanted to do a pick-and-roll offense, maybe because he had run one in Orlando for so long and he wanted to get in the post more," Nash said.



http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/stor ... les-lakers (http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/9464504/steve-nash-says-dwight-howard-never-wanted-los-angeles-lakers)



I wonder if McHale would run the PNR or post Dwight straight up in most possessions.

[MeloHype]

Salty

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol Steve Nash
:lol perennial loser
:lol takes parenting advice from Karl Malone

[StrengthAndHonor]

:lol takes parenting advise from Karl Malone

:lol

[Rogue]

PNR ain't the most efficient way to use him when he can't even hit an elephant with the ball a few yards away. DH is just a glamorized TC with shitty personality. Bigs need to have the ability to hit jumpers to be efficient in PNR imho

[Chinook]

Tyson Chandler is arguably the best PnR big in the league. If Dwight is just a glamorized Chandler, he should excel at being the roll man.

[Rogue]

TC was more like a Pick but No roll big imho. Usually he doesn't score nothing at the offensive end except some alley-oops and 2nd chance scores. Dude can barely score 10pts per game from alley-oops and 2nd chances but has never been considered a legit offensive option imho. Guys like DH possess no threat offensively while standing outside the 10-feet radium around the hoop. they have to cut inside to score so the opposing big can just fall back immediately and block the lane. While if your big can hit a jumper (like Duncan) it would be much harder for the other team to defend your P'n'Rs. Your legs will never run faster than the ball flies imho

[Killakobe81]

PNR ain't the most efficient way to use him when he can't even hit an elephant with the ball a few yards away. DH is just a glamorized TC with shitty personality. Bigs need to have the ability to hit jumpers to be efficient in PNR imho

Rogue is absolutely right. But doesnt it somewhat explain why he didn't wanna run it? Sure he was acting like a bitch, so I can't defend Dwight but that offense was a poor for for Howard. Amare can shoot ...

[JamStone]

If you set a good screen and the guard is a good shooter, the big (screener) doesn't need to be able to hit jumpers to be effective running the PNR. Good screen, roll hard at the rim, dunks and lay-ups or fouls every time. The big being able to hit a jumper adds a really great wrinkle, but it's not necessary to run an effective PNR. Dwight could be great in the PNR because once he's at the rim, he should be able to finish against rotating help defenders.

[racm]

Has someone told Rogue that the big man hitting a J after setting a pick is called a pick and pop?

[Mark in Austin]

If Nash could make Amare look all-world there's no reason he couldn't do the same for Dwight. WTF? Dwight is either dumber than a box of rocks, was hurt far more than he let on, or was sandbagging on an epic scale.

[Rogue]

Tbh there's a reason why those P'n'R text book writers such as Malone and Duncan all have consistent jumpers, I don't think it's coincidence. Bigs without jumpers can also play PNR as a smack but never as a main dish. Nonetheless, DH has lost his quickness and explosiveness because of the back injury, and to make things worse he can't hit even half the freebies he gets, which all together make it very diffcult for him to be an effective PNR player imho.

If I were the coach of the team playing against DH's team I'd just arrange 3 crappy bigs to cope with DH alternately, foul the living shit out of him whenever he gets the ball near the rim and send him to the line to score less than one point on average. DH can be an offensive liability if you use the right players and right game plan on him imho.

[Rogue]

Has someone told Rogue that the big man hitting a J after setting a pick is called a pick and pop?
PNP is a derivative of PNR though, which has become an essential part of the PNR family in modern basketball imho. you can still play PNR with a big that can't hit jumpers but it would be 10 times more efficient if the big could hit a jumper or two on the perimeter. it's like upgrading your classic infantry to mechanized infantry imho

[rmt]

Tbh there's a reason why those P'n'R text book writers such as Malone and Duncan all have consistent jumpers, I don't think it's coincidence. Bigs without jumpers can also play PNR as a smack but never as a main dish. Nonetheless, DH has lost his quickness and explosiveness because of the back injury, and to make things worse he can't hit even half the freebies he gets, which all together make it very diffcult for him to be an effective PNR player imho.

If I were the coach of the team playing against DH's team I'd just arrange 3 crappy bigs to cope with DH alternately, foul the living shit out of him whenever he gets the ball near the rim and send him to the line to score less than one point on average. DH can be an offensive liability if you use the right players and right game plan on him imho.

Splitter is an elite pick and roll player WITHOUT a jumper. Roll means rolling to the basket. Pop means popping out for a jumper. Don't need a jumper to do pick and roll. A player with a jumper just has more options but that's true regardless of pick 'n whatever or no screen set.

[Rogue]

I never said DH would be a crap in PNR offense, just saying if the coach wants to make his offensive plan around DH he would never build his team's offense on PNR, and DH has every reason to repulse PNR because he wants to be the #1 on both ends of the floor and a PNR-oriented system would further squash his offensive game which's already very limited.

[whitemamba]

PnR is all dwight has, no way he didnt want to run it.

[Boomersgold]

Tyson Chandler is arguably the best PnR big in the league. If Dwight is just a glamorized Chandler, he should excel at being the roll man.

Being good at the PnR doesn't necessarily equate to being a great big man. The dude has averaged less than 10 points and 10 rebounds for the majority of his career. Not sure how he even made the all-star team averaging barely over 10 points and 10 rebounds a game when a guy like Bogut couldn't make the all-star game averaging 16 points, 10 rebounds a game and 3 times as many blocks as Chandler had this season.

Dwight Howard may not be that good at pick 'n' rolls, but you can always rely on him to score 20+ points, from put backs, back the basket post moves or even a few pick 'n' rolls, and grab 10+ rebounds.

[Chinook]

Being good at the PnR doesn't necessarily equate to being a great big man. The dude has averaged less than 10 points and 10 rebounds for the majority of his career. Not sure how he even made the all-star team averaging barely over 10 points and 10 rebounds a game when a guy like Bogut couldn't make the all-star game averaging 16 points, 10 rebounds a game and 3 times as many blocks as Chandler had this season.

Dwight Howard may not be that good at pick 'n' rolls, but you can always rely on him to score 20+ points, from put backs, back the basket post moves or even a few pick 'n' rolls, and grab 10+ rebounds.

Okay... but I was responding to Rogue's post that Howard would suck in PnRs because he's essentially Tyson Chandler. That doesn't make sense, since Chandler is actually great at PnRs.

[Chinook]

And somehow, Chandler managed to lead the league this season in offensive efficiency (at 133, which is absolutely mind-blowing), so it's clear he's doing something right.

The problem with playing the pick-and-roll game is that it reduces the big man to a secondary role. That's why Chandler fails to get credit, even though he's tremendous on offense. That's also why Duncan has kept his career per-minute averages but the media still consider the Spurs Parker's team. Howard knows that being the roll man will lead to Harden getting all the glory.

EDIT: Chandler's actually led in league for three seasons running in offensive rating, with numbers of 131, 130 and 133 (an all-time NBA record for a single season). He has three of the top-7 single-season totals in NBA history. That's unreal.

[Raven]

to me the idea of running a pnr with a nash-dho combo while having pau on the floor was just stupid from the start. Everyone knows dwight can't hit jumpers and with pau the paint is always packed.. add in that nash is old and dwight injured and you have a terrible offense.

[AchillesHeel]

This is true. Dwight had a ton of post ups but was like 0.8 points per post up this year while Kobe was I think first or 2nd in the league with 1.2 or 1.3

Antoni hates the post, he says going to the post is the most inefficient way to score, Dwight obviously didn't like him as he wanted to go to the post more (though he's inefficient there but I digress).

D12 will never be a #1 option on a championship team. He could win a Finals MVP with his defense and rebounding, but he'll never be in the Shaq mold because a) he's smaller than most centers in size b) he has no real post moves c) he's a pussy


EDIT: found the post up thing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmfdINmLntkUdEtkb0JQVVBtMTFUSzhZTTRFZDBMM mc#gid=0

:lol Lebron 23rd
:lol Dwight Howard 38th, 20% turnover rate in the post, 2nd worst amongst those players

Yeah, give Dwight more post ups when he was a 70% fg scorer on PnR's!

[AaronY]

Rogue is wrong, Chinook is right..

[Tuddy]

Chandlers rating is boosted massively by most of his points coming from point blank shots from offensive rebounds

[Spurs9]

If Nash could make Amare look all-world there's no reason he couldn't do the same for Dwight. WTF? Dwight is either dumber than a box of rocks, was hurt far more than he let on, or was sandbagging on an epic scale.

DH has 8 kids, clearly pretty dumb tbh

[Killakobe81]

If you set a good screen and the guard is a good shooter, the big (screener) doesn't need to be able to hit jumpers to be effective running the PNR. Good screen, roll hard at the rim, dunks and lay-ups or fouls every time. The big being able to hit a jumper adds a really great wrinkle, but it's not necessary to run an effective PNR. Dwight could be great in the PNR because once he's at the rim, he should be able to finish against rotating help defenders.

Great point, if you have shooters to allow spacing. Lakers did not. They should have with Nash and Kobe but most good teams took away the hard roll for Dwight by leaving Artest to clog the paint, leading to Dwight having to score in a congested lane. He lacks "touch" so it led to A LOT of strips. What we saw in THE SWEEP, was a GREAT coach and a very good team exploit Dwight's weakness. Nash is also to blame because he refused to shoot. THE pnr we ran las year was nothing close to Stockton/Malone or Nash/Amare. In fact, it wasnt even as good as Kidd/Tyson tbh.

[Koolaid_Man]

It's just an IQ thing with Dwight...nothing more nothing less

[Koolaid_Man]

you can't ask the powers that be to put Dwight along side high IQ players like Kobe, Nash, and Pau and expect him to survive...it's like throwing a giant Tuna fish in a pond with Great Whites and Killer Whales :lol

[Michael Jordan.]

you can't ask the powers that be to put Dwight along side high IQ players like Kobe, Nash, and Pau and expect him to survive...it's like throwing a giant Tuna fish in a pond with Great Whites and Killer Whales :lol
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0qsve0p1p1ql3n0mo1_250.gifhttp://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0qsve0p1p1ql3n0mo1_250.gifhttp://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0qsve0p1p1ql3n0mo1_250.gif
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0qsve0p1p1ql3n0mo1_250.gifhttp://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0qsve0p1p1ql3n0mo1_250.gifhttp://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0qsve0p1p1ql3n0mo1_250.gif
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0qsve0p1p1ql3n0mo1_250.gifhttp://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0qsve0p1p1ql3n0mo1_250.gifhttp://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0qsve0p1p1ql3n0mo1_250.gif

[Indazone]

This is a run and gun team. McHale will use Howard the same way that Coach K used him on Team USA.

[Chinook]

Chandlers rating is boosted massively by most of his points coming from point blank shots from offensive rebounds

Offensive rating is how many points your team scores per 100 possessions while you're on the floor. The fact that Chandler's ORtg is so high implies that he improves the offense dramatically when he's on the floor. That could be the case even if he didn't score a single point.

[Tuddy]

Offensive rating is how many points your team scores per 100 possessions while you're on the floor. The fact that Chandler's ORtg is so high implies that he improves the offense dramatically when he's on the floor. That could be the case even if he didn't score a single point.

Thought it was the individual? Couldn't imagine biedrins or pj brown (who won it previously) having that great an impact on their teams as screeners

[Chinook]

Thought it was the individual? Couldn't imagine biedrins or pj brown (who won it previously) having that great an impact on their teams as screeners

Screeners, assist-heavy guards and floor-spacers often lead the league in ORtg, because that kind of stuff really helps an offense more than the individual player scoring. Think about it this way: Splitter can only score when he has the ball in his hands. He can set a good screen or box out his man to allow a Duncan or Leonard put-back on every single possession. If your specialty is helping your teammates score, you're going to be a very good player on offense, even if you don't score.

[Tuddy]

https://www.numberfire.com/nba/news/739/2013-tyson-chandler-the-most-efficient-offensive-season-ever

According to this, it's how many points the individual scores per 100 possessions.

[Rogue]

I admit I was wrong. It is my rule when I make my fantasy team that the PF must has the ability to hit jumpers on the perimeter, but it doesn't always apply to every team. I choose them Mavs most times (supposedly) so I'm kinda used to the pick and pop play, which have gradually become a synonym of pick and roll in my book imho.

Some teams and players may still do good in P'n'R without jumpers but most PFs (even including Amare) have developed jump shooting games, I think it's kind of become a trend in the league. It's like when all major countries have upgraded their infantries to mechanized infantries, your troops are still marching on foot. You can still be a good team with Arbeloa or a rejuvenated Paulo Ferreira playing full back for you, but those fullbacks who stay on their own half pitch throughout their lifetimes are no longer in vogue imho.

[Chinook]

https://www.numberfire.com/nba/news/739/2013-tyson-chandler-the-most-efficient-offensive-season-ever

According to this, it's how many points the individual scores per 100 possessions.

That's misguided. It's based on "points produced", not point's scored.


"Offensive Rating" is a statistic used in basketball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball) to measure either a team's offensive performance or an individual player's efficiency at producing points for the offense. It was created by author and statistician Dean Oliver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Oliver_(statistician)).For teams, the formula is: 100 x Pts / (Tm FGA + .40 x Tm FTA - 1.07 x (Tm ORB / (Tm ORB + Tm DRB)) x (Tm FGA - Tm FG) + Tm TO)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offensive_rating#cite_note-1)
For players, the formula is: Offensive Rating = (Points Produced / Individual Possessions) x 100
Points can be produced through field goals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_goal_(basketball)), free throws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_throw), assists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assist_(basketball)), and offensive rebounds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebound_(basketball)). Individual possessions are the sum of a player's scoring possessions (field goals, free throws, plus partial credit for assists), missed field goals and free throws that the defense rebounds, and turnovers.

Both definitions are pretty much the same, but I guess individual offensive rating is a little more complicated that I realized.

So depending on how ORtg is defined, it can suggest either that Chandler makes his team better by being on the floor, or that he makes great decisions with the ball when he has it while also getting his team extra possessions. Even if the number I was citing comes from the latter definition, the fact that he has been top-10 in WS/48 each of the last three seasons supports that he raises his team's offensive rating as well as his own.

[Fireball]

PNR ain't the most efficient way to use him when he can't even hit an elephant with the ball a few yards away. DH is just a glamorized TC with shitty personality. Bigs need to have the ability to hit jumpers to be efficient in PNR imho

We love Tiago Splitters work out of the PnR, and he is no shooter. If he could dunk like Dwight, omg. But I am pretty sure that after the Lakers got Steve Nash and Dwight Howard last year I read that Nash was the best in setting up the PnR and Howard was the best in finishing it when rolling to the basket. So on paper you had the best PnR combination in one team, thats why its astounding to read Nashs comments ... DH really is an idiot.

[Kool Bob Love]

:lmao