Manu didn't get $14 million from the Spurs...

[timvp]

He got $14.5 million.




:wakeup

[MeloHype]

Ok

[CubanMustGo]

Inflation. Hits everyone hard.

[Jwash_1986]

That's crazy mane....

[Spur|n|Austin]

:downspin:

[TE]

I thought I'd see a :wow over a :wakeup, tbh

[SpursFan4-Life]

Can't believe spurs paid him that much


jesus

[Chinook]

I hope it's front-loaded. The team will have cap space next summer as well, and not too many of their own free agents to spend it on.

[TE]

I don't know how anybody can spin this shit... even me who leans toward the Manu homer category, I can't find a reason why he was paid that much. Manu robbed the Spurs, tbh.

[slick'81]

Sacrifice people

[slick'81]

I don't know how anybody can spin this shit... even me who leans toward the Manu homer category, I can't find a reason why he was paid that much. Manu robbed the Spurs, tbh.

Can only hope he has a bounce back season if not biggest waste of cash for sure .but if u need a reason rc said it himself Manus per averages r great yo

[urunobili]

"Significant sacrifice"

[yavozerb]

He got $14.5 million.




:wakeup

Nice...I thought they had short changed him with that 14 mil offer..

[TE]

Can only hope he has a bounce back season if not biggest waste of cash for sure .but if u need a reason rc said ut his per averages r great yo
obscure stats ftw

[Texas_Ranger]

no one other would give him that much... lol Spurs

[PlayNando]

no one other would give him that much... lol Spurs
You don't know that.............

[yavozerb]

no one other would give him that much... lol Spurs

Your dumb if u think that..Take a look at this summers contracts.

[TheGreatYacht]

I don't know how anybody can spin this shit... even me who leans toward the Manu homer category, I can't find a reason why he was paid that much. Manu robbed the Spurs, tbh.FO gave him a blank check to sign IMO. IDC what reports say out there. There is no way that our stingy FO would have chosen to overpay Manu out of the blues. Manu opted to get paid for his market value. He didn't do what TP and TD did which is to take a pay cut below the market value. Manu's $3-$4M that he refused to give us a discount on plus Matt Bonner's $3M contract would have allowed the Spurs to make an improvement on the SF or PG position. Perhaps we could have signed Jarrett Jack or AK47 if we would of had all that cap space taken by Manu and Bonner.
Your dumb if u think that..Take a look at this summers contracts.Manu's play is declining though. Most of the other SG's are either in their prime or on the rise. Sorry but you can't make the case for Manu.

[Texas_Ranger]

ok let me say it the other way. None of the contenders would pay him that much. I am sure Manu would want to play for the Milwaukee Bucks.

[silverblackfan]

Timvp loves to spin up the crowd.

[yavozerb]

FO gave him a blank check to sign IMO. IDC what reports say out there. There is no way that our stingy FO would have chosen to overpay Manu out of the blues. Manu opted to get paid for his market value. He didn't do what TP and TD did which is to take a pay cut below the market value. Manu's $3-$4M that he refused to give us a discount on plus Matt Bonner's $3M contract would have allowed the Spurs to make an improvement on the SF or PG position. Perhaps we could have signed Jarrett Jack or AK47 if we would of had all that cap space taken by Manu and Bonner.Manu's play is declining though. Most of the other SG's are either in their prime or on the rise. Sorry but you can't make the case for Manu.

Sorry, if players like Martell Webster, Korver, and Tony Allen can all get contract ranging from 5-6.5 mil a season then Manu could have easily had some equal or greater offers.

[Big Empty]

Manu gave us a huge discount in his prime. well earned. besides, nobody twisted the Front officeses arm to pay the man a little more than hes worth.

[Budkin]

Too much but I'm not giving up on the guy... think he'll have a good season.

[weebo]

During Manu's heyday, the Spurs benefited from a hometown discount. Manu could have easily signed with some other teams for more money in previous contract years but sacrificed money and stats to stay with the Spurs.

Now people want to throw the Spurs and Manu under the bus for mutually agreeing on a contract that rewards Manu for his many years of loyalty and service.

[Baam]

Why didn't they give him a one year deal? Two years is guaranteed failure... I don't get it...

[SpursSerb]

Worst timing for his contract extension tbh.

[DapDaGenius]

Sacrifice people

Blood sacrifice?

[Nathan89]

Your dumb if u think that..Take a look at this summers contracts.

Who are the other injury prone 36 year old's that got 14.5mil?

[Chinook]

During Manu's heyday, the Spurs benefited from a hometown discount. Manu could have easily signed with some other teams for more money in previous contract years but sacrificed money and stats to stay with the Spurs.

Now people want to throw the Spurs and Manu under the bus for mutually agreeing on a contract that rewards Manu for his many years of loyalty and service.

This gets overstated all the time on this board. Ginobili was a free agent twice, with this off-season being the second time. The first time, there was a rumored offer from Denver which was six years, $8-9 Million a year. Ginobili ended up signing for six years starting at about $6 Million. Why he signed for six years, I have no idea. Even if he were all about sacrifice, he didn't have to sign for that long. But I think he did because that was best offer that was actually extended to him. But whatever.

After he was almost done with that contract, he signed for a max extension in lieu of going to free agency. Before people laud him for that sacrifice, remember he had just come off one of his worse seasons, and there were serious thoughts that the team was going to trade him away or at least let him walk. Washington offered the fifth-overall pick and Arenas for him, which the Spurs thankfully rejected. Then Ginobili blows up and signed his extension, which gave him the security he needed in case he had a bad finish to the year.

Manu could have tried to wait until free agency to try for a max offer. During his prime, he probably could have gotten one. But he also signed hefty deals with the Spurs to forgo that. He's never done anything like Duncan and purposefully took less so that the team could stay together (at least from what's been confirmed). If anything, he was like Parker in that he signed long-term deals at the wrong times. That doesn't make him a money-grubbing selfish player now. But it also didn't make him a saint then.

[MannyIsGod]

This gets overstated all the time on this board. Ginobili was a free agent twice, with this off-season being the second time. The first time, there was a rumored offer from Denver which was six years, $8-9 Million a year. Ginobili ended up signing for six years starting at about $6 Million. Why he signed for six years, I have no idea. Even if he were all about sacrifice, he didn't have to sign for that long. But I think he did because that was best offer that was actually extended to him. But whatever.

After he was almost done with that contract, he signed for a max extension in lieu of going to free agency. Before people laud him for that sacrifice, remember he had just come off one of his worse seasons, and there were serious thoughts that the team was going to trade him away or at least let him walk. Washington offered the fifth-overall pick and Arenas for him, which the Spurs thankfully rejected. Then Ginobili blows up and signed his extension, which gave him the security he needed in case he had a bad finish to the year.

Manu could have tried to wait until free agency to try for a max offer. During his prime, he probably could have gotten one. But he also signed hefty deals with the Spurs to forgo that. He's never done anything like Duncan and purposefully took less so that the team could stay together (at least from what's been confirmed). If anything, he was like Parker in that he signed long-term deals at the wrong times. That doesn't make him a money-grubbing selfish player now. But it also didn't make him a saint then.

The goods.

[TE]

This gets overstated all the time on this board. Ginobili was a free agent twice, with this off-season being the second time. The first time, there was a rumored offer from Denver which was six years, $8-9 Million a year. Ginobili ended up signing for six years starting at about $6 Million. Why he signed for six years, I have no idea. Even if he were all about sacrifice, he didn't have to sign for that long. But I think he did because that was best offer that was actually extended to him. But whatever.

After he was almost done with that contract, he signed for a max extension in lieu of going to free agency. Before people laud him for that sacrifice, remember he had just come off one of his worse seasons, and there were serious thoughts that the team was going to trade him away or at least let him walk. Washington offered the fifth-overall pick and Arenas for him, which the Spurs thankfully rejected. Then Ginobili blows up and signed his extension, which gave him the security he needed in case he had a bad finish to the year.

Manu could have tried to wait until free agency to try for a max offer. During his prime, he probably could have gotten one. But he also signed hefty deals with the Spurs to forgo that. He's never done anything like Duncan and purposefully took less so that the team could stay together (at least from what's been confirmed). If anything, he was like Parker in that he signed long-term deals at the wrong times. That doesn't make him a money-grubbing selfish player now. But it also didn't make him a saint then.
:tu

[DPG21920]

This contract, coming off of the letdown he was to Tim and TP and Pop in the finals, was a bit greedy. But I digress.

[weebo]

This gets overstated all the time on this board. Ginobili was a free agent twice, with this off-season being the second time. The first time, there was a rumored offer from Denver which was six years, $8-9 Million a year. Ginobili ended up signing for six years starting at about $6 Million. Why he signed for six years, I have no idea. Even if he were all about sacrifice, he didn't have to sign for that long. But I think he did because that was best offer that was actually extended to him. But whatever.

After he was almost done with that contract, he signed for a max extension in lieu of going to free agency. Before people laud him for that sacrifice, remember he had just come off one of his worse seasons, and there were serious thoughts that the team was going to trade him away or at least let him walk. Washington offered the fifth-overall pick and Arenas for him, which the Spurs thankfully rejected. Then Ginobili blows up and signed his extension, which gave him the security he needed in case he had a bad finish to the year.

Manu could have tried to wait until free agency to try for a max offer. During his prime, he probably could have gotten one. But he also signed hefty deals with the Spurs to forgo that. He's never done anything like Duncan and purposefully took less so that the team could stay together (at least from what's been confirmed). If anything, he was like Parker in that he signed long-term deals at the wrong times. That doesn't make him a money-grubbing selfish player now. But it also didn't make him a saint then.

Again, Manu sacrificed money, stats, fame, etc. to remain on the team. You can't sit there and say what went on behind closed doors during those negotiations. Maybe the Spurs FO promised to take care of him at the end of his career if he signed with the Spurs for less. However, who really knows....

All we know now is this...Manu was instrumental in the '05 and '07 championships. You can spin it any way you want but that is fact. The Spurs don't win in '05 and '07 w/o Manu being Manu.

You said yourself...he could have gotten the max from some team because in his prime he was a max player. Now the Spurs are rewarding Manu for his many years of service and loyalty. You guys make it sound like he just signed some outrageous deal that will hamstring the Spurs from signing Lebron next year. SMH

[baseline bum]

Sickens me how people on here act like they're owed Manu taking a mini MLE or even a minimum deal. Manu has more than earned that contract and I'm glad he's back.

[Chinook]

Again, Manu sacrificed money, stats, fame, etc. to remain on the team. You can't sit there and say what went on behind closed doors during those negotiations. Maybe the Spurs FO promised to take care of him at the end of his career if he signed with the Spurs for less. However, who really knows....

Did you really just posit what went on behind closed doors, then try to tell me not to do that?


All we know now is this...Manu was instrumental in the '05 and '07 championships. You can spin it any way you want but that is fact. The Spurs don't win in '05 and '07 w/o Manu being Manu.

You said yourself...he could have gotten the max from some team because in his prime he was a max player. Now the Spurs are rewarding Manu for his many years of service and loyalty. You guys make it sound like he just signed some outrageous deal that will hamstring the Spurs from signing Lebron next year. SMH

As for the rest of the post, I don't even know what you're trying to argue. I've already said if Ginobili didn't lock himself into deals at the wrong time, he'd have made more money. That's not the same thing as taking less to help the team. Only Duncan has been in that position and (twice) decided to take well below his projected market value to keep the team under the tax. He's the only player who had all the leverage in the world and decided not to use it. When Ginobili had the leverage, he got a max extension with every little perk that could be thrown into it.

No one is saying Ginobili was worth more than he got paid. He had max-player production for a few years, and I think he would have gotten a max deal if he were a free agent in his prime. But he wasn't, and that was because he signed an eventual $91M/9 deal, which in case you're wondering is almost exactly what Parker has made over the same time frame. That's a hell of a lot of money that he guaranteed himself by staying with the same team. There's no way that that can be interpreted as a bad business decision on his part unless you assume he knew exactly how history was going to unfold. Both he and the team did what they thought was best, and it worked out for both of them. No one got screwed over, and no one was overly generous.

[dunkman]

Up to the MLE would have been reasonable, but $7M was too much.

[Chinook]

Sickens me how people on here act like they're owed Manu taking a mini MLE or even a minimum deal. Manu has more than earned that contract and I'm glad he's back.

I think he's received fair deals his whole career and that he received another one this season. Most people think he was heavily underpaid and/or overpaid at various points of his career. I don't.

[SpursSerb]

No other team would give him more than Spurs this summer,not even close.

[TheGreatYacht]

Again, Manu sacrificed money, stats, fame, etc. to remain on the team. You can't sit there and say what went on behind closed doors during those negotiations. Maybe the Spurs FO promised to take care of him at the end of his career if he signed with the Spurs for less. However, who really knows....Manu rejected an $8M contract from Denver to take $6M from the Spurs like Chinook said... yeah what huge sacrifice .


All we know now is this...Manu was instrumental in the '05 and '07 championships. You can spin it any way you want but that is fact. The Spurs don't win in '05 and '07 w/o Manu being Manu.Without Duncan, we have ZERO championships. TD took one for the team. Please don't compare them.


You said yourself...he could have gotten the max from some team because in his prime he was a max player. Now the Spurs are rewarding Manu for his many years of service and loyalty. You guys make it sound like he just signed some outrageous deal that will hamstring the Spurs from signing Lebron next year. SMHThis is why I hate arguing with Manutards. How many championships has loyalty gotten us for the past 6 years?

[SpursFan4-Life]

Manu gave us a huge discount in his prime. well earned. besides, nobody twisted the Front officeses arm to pay the man a little more than hes worth.

Gave us a discount? Being injured and hurt all the time when spurs needed him most is a discount?

[rmt]

Manu must be the most CODDLED "max" star that's ever been. He's always played limited minutes even when young. His lack of consistency and flashes of brilliance tease and drive fans crazy at the same time. It's all or nothing for him and recently, as in the past couple years, it's been closer to nothing. His play is worth nowhere close to $14.5m for 2 years - but he's hella popular and didn't do the Spurs any favor with this last contract. For me, with this last playoff performance, Spurs would be forgiven even by the most rabid Manu fans for giving him closer to his real value.

[phxspurfan]

Whatever, the Big Three will all finish together and be done in two years and that's the point. Good for the Spurs to stay together and good for Manu to get his lifetime achievement award.

[DPG21920]

Sickens me how people on here act like they're owed Manu taking a mini MLE or even a minimum deal. Manu has more than earned that contract and I'm glad he's back.

Crofl, hyperbole much? The fact is SA is a special small market. The best player in the history of the franchise has taken much less than he is worth to give the team a shot a title and is still elite and performing. TP is making way less than market value and improving his game. The only guy that is not improving is also the only one not sacrificing any money for the team. I can understand how that does not sit well with people. I am also happy he is back. They are not mutually exclusive.

[ducks]

I doubt he would have taken the vet min I thought the mle is what he would take
IMO he is not above the average player with minutes he can only play and is injury prone

[ducks]

Sickens me how people on here act like they're owed Manu taking a mini MLE or even a minimum deal. Manu has more than earned that contract and I'm glad he's back.

sicken me that he has a history off playing well in the 4 quarter the other teamates get him in that postion and manu is the only player to get credit for the win

[rmt]

I doubt he would have taken the vet min I thought the mle is what he would take
IMO he is not above the average player with minutes he can only play and is injury prone

I agree. No one's talking about vet min - most fans would be happy with around $5+ per year.

[rmt]

sicken me that he has a history off playing well in the 4 quarter the other teamates get him in that postion and manu is the only player to get credit for the win

I don't begrudge him his reputation for 4th quarter clutch heroics. His not admitting that he played so poorly this playoffs grates on me. His including the team with his poor play is a joke - Duncan, Leonard and Green all performed above expected.

[Mikeanaro]

14,5 millions is because he had bad contracts in the past, now that he is done they are giving him big money like they did Finley

[Mikeanaro]

I think next season Manu is gonna explode, not in an emotional way, more like this
http://www.noisewiki.com/wiki/images/9/99/ExplodingHead.GIF

[ducks]

and also what annoys me is that the spurs beat writer said manu was underpaid for manu years
wtf? did spurs pay jeff to post such stupidest to try to satisfy the fans?
how much money has the spurs paid him already before the deal?
denver never even gave him a formal offer according to him last fa
imo he was never going anywhere

[TheGoldStandard]

Too much for as little as we'll get from him at this stage in his career but the majority of people seem to be okay with this so I won't argue the point..

[jestersmash]

It's always hard to judge these things, but my thought process is roughly as follows -

Tim took a 50% pay cut after coming off a solid 15.4/9/2 season on very good efficiency for a big man (49.2% from the field), and that's not even considering what he brings to defense. He had one of his best defensive seasons last season in addition to improving his offensive stats, but nobody could've guessed that so we can only really go by his '11-'12 numbers.

Manu had his worst (or maybe 2nd worst) season in the history of his career from efficiency to injuries to you name it. He also took a 50% pay cut.

Tim's 50% cut is the metric I use to judge Manu.

[DPG21920]

I made the same Chinook argument with regards to Duncan before to. While Tim has taken less money, he is still a top 10 paid player of all time IIRC so it's not like the Spurs didn't take care of him. But when it got to the stage where the Spurs needed more, Duncan (and to a lesser degree Parker) took less and are still performing at a high level consistently. Manu is not.

[temujin]

It's always extremely hilarious when people most likely NOT making more than 100 K/year are bitching about rich men paying, or overpaying, another rich man.

[Baseline]

He got $14.5 million. Great. I've lost my mind over this already. Now I'll have to rob somebody else's mind so I can't lose it, too.




:wakeup

[Capt Bringdown]

Gotta sell those jerseys. Manu speaks spanish, that's all that matters to large segment of casual Spurs fans.
There's no basketball reason to make such a commitment to a scrub.

[TheGreatYacht]

It's always hard to judge these things, but my thought process is roughly as follows -

Tim took a 50% pay cut after coming off a solid 15.4/9/2 season on very good efficiency for a big man (49.2% from the field), and that's not even considering what he brings to defense. He had one of his best defensive seasons last season in addition to improving his offensive stats, but nobody could've guessed that so we can only really go by his '11-'12 numbers.

Manu had his worst (or maybe 2nd worst) season in the history of his career from efficiency to injuries to you name it. He also took a 50% pay cut.

Tim's 50% cut is the metric I use to judge Manu.Can you read the comments before you state your opinion? Stop with this "Manu took a 50% pay cut" argument because he didn't . If you read the comments above, you'll note that Manu DID NOT take a pay cut from his market value. If Manu would have taken a 50% pay cut, then he should of resigned for $3.5M/year or $7M/2year and not the bloated $14M/2 year contract that he took. In my very personal opinion, Manu's not even worth $7M/year market value but that's just me.

[DPG21920]

Well, no matter on how much we may agree on what we think Manu's market value is/was, it's a fact he took a 50% pay cut from last year.

[SpursFan86]

Crofl, hyperbole much? The fact is SA is a special small market. The best player in the history of the franchise has taken much less than he is worth to give the team a shot a title and is still elite and performing. TP is making way less than market value and improving his game. The only guy that is not improving is also the only one not sacrificing any money for the team. I can understand how that does not sit well with people. I am also happy he is back. They are not mutually exclusive.

Apparently if you think Manu is even slightly overpaid, you're a ungrateful shithead who doesn't recognize anything he has done for the Spurs and you aren't happy to have him back.

[TheGreatYacht]

Well, no matter on how much we may agree on what we think Manu's market value is/was, it's a fact he took a 50% pay cut from last year.Yeah but not from the market value. TD is underpaid according to his market value. Based on your argument, then Manu deserved to resign with the Spurs for $28M.

[TheGoldStandard]

Can you read the comments before you state your opinion? Stop with this "Manu took a 50% pay cut" argument because he didn't . If you read the comments above, you'll note that Manu DID NOT take a pay cut from his market value. If Manu would have taken a 50% pay cut, then he should of resigned for $3.5M/year or $7M/2year and not the bloated $14M/2 year contract that he took. In my very personal opinion, Manu's not even worth $7M/year market value but that's just me.

Most reasonable argument you've made and I agree.

[DPG21920]

Not really, but it's pointless to debate this aspect of things.

[benefactor]

LJ...picking up the ant farm and shaking it...and watching the pissed off ants crawl.

[TheGreatYacht]

Apparently if you think Manu is even slightly overpaid, you're a ungrateful shithead who doesn't recognize anything he has done for the Spurs and you aren't happy to have him back.LMAO, please get Manu's coc* off your mouth. DPG21920 is one of the most knowledgeable persons on ST. So is Bruno and Chinook.

[DPG21920]

I think he was mocking people who say you essentially hate Manu if you try to argue his contract is too much.

[rick1991]

"Significant sacrifice"

RC was referencing earlier in Manu's career when he could have gone elsewhere for higher pay. Hopefully everyone gets the memo by now

[TXstbobcat]

Despite what happened in games 6 and 7 of the finals, I am happy he signed on for another 2 years. I will never forget being at game 5 of the finals last month and all of the fans in the arena chanting MANU.

[mountainballer]

wow. just wow. as if the basketball gods decided 28 seconds before the buzzer that those fans don't deserve a 5th parade. treating Manu worse than Jefferson after he signed his extension, is the most classless episode of any fan base ever. the most ridiculous part of it is, that those little minds are acting, as if the one or two million they claim he got to much, put a damper on the Spurs future. ridiculous.
he got the money b/c the Spurs believe he is worth the number. it's only a few months ago that every true and every wannabe Spurs fan would wholehearted declare that Manu is the heart of this team. this heart had some cardiac arrhythmia and every other "fan" calls it worthless. remember, you can't live without your heart. neither can a team. there is no price tag on your heart.

[temujin]

Manu made 107 M in his NBA career. gross.
That makes 65 M net?
Plus the endorsements.

I dont' think Nicola AND Dante' grandsons will have a bit of a financial problem.

[rascal]

They should have gotten rid of Manu after the 2007 title. He has done more harm to the team in their title quest with all the injuries and poor play in the playoffs for what they have paid him during all those years.

[TheGoldStandard]

wow. just wow. as if the basketball gods decided 28 seconds before the buzzer that those fans don't deserve a 5th parade. treating Manu worse than Jefferson after he signed his extension, is the most classless episode of any fan base ever. the most ridiculous part of it is, that those little minds are acting, as if the one or two million they claim he got to much, put a damper on the Spurs future. ridiculous.
he got the money b/c the Spurs believe he is worth the number. it's only a few months ago that every true and every wannabe Spurs fan would wholehearted declare that Manu is the heart of this team. this heart had some cardiac arrhythmia and every other "fan" calls it worthless. remember, you can't live without your heart. neither can a team. there is no price tag on your heart.

Sometimes people need a heart transplant.

[temujin]

wow. just wow. as if the basketball gods decided 28 seconds before the buzzer that those fans don't deserve a 5th parade. treating Manu worse than Jefferson after he signed his extension, is the most classless episode of any fan base ever. the most ridiculous part of it is, that those little minds are acting, as if the one or two million they claim he got to much, put a damper on the Spurs future. ridiculous.
he got the money b/c the Spurs believe he is worth the number. it's only a few months ago that every true and every wannabe Spurs fan would wholehearted declare that Manu is the heart of this team. this heart had some cardiac arrhythmia and every other "fan" calls it worthless. remember, you can't live without your heart. neither can a team. there is no price tag on your heart.

Well if Manu signs at 3M, Spurs would have gotten that famous Euroleague champion Kirilenko, who obviously would have chosen San Antonio over New York, and Holt over his Russian buddy.....

[TheGreatYacht]

... it's only a few months ago that every true and every wannabe Spurs fan would wholehearted declare that Manu is the heart of this team. this heart had some cardiac arrhythmia and every other "fan" calls it worthless. remember, you can't live without your heart. neither can a team. there is no price tag on your heart.What you talking about? Tim Duncan is the heart and soul of this team. Without Tim Duncan, the Spurs have ZERO championships. It is because of Tim Duncan's resurgence these past two years that the Spurs have been as successful as they've been recently such as reaching the WCF in 2012 and the NBA finals in 2013. A 38 year old Tim Duncan, as well as Kawhi, almost carried us to #5 had it not been for coach Pop's decisions, your favorite player's 8 turnovers, and the infamous 28 second rebounds and free throws.

[temujin]

They should have gotten rid of Manu after the 2007 title. He has done more harm to the team in their title quest with all the injuries and poor play in the playoffs for what they have paid him during all those years.

Better yet, in 2005.

That foul in G7 of 2006 would have never happened, and Ginobili' 30 points in that game would have been scored by hero Beno Udrih.
Maybe even 40.

[SpursFan86]

LMAO, please get Manu's coc* off your mouth. DPG21920 is one of the most knowledgeable persons on ST. So is Bruno and Chinook.


I think he was mocking people who say you essentially hate Manu if you try to argue his contract is too much.

Thank you DPG.

What part of "apparently" don't you understand? Was my post really that hard to comprehend? DPG seemed to understand it fine. I was simply pointing out that many people here assume you hate Manu and don't recognize all he has done for this franchise if you even hint at the fact that he's overpaid. I was mocking them. Stop being so defensive.

[TheGreatYacht]

Thank you DPG.

What part of "apparently" don't you understand? Was my post really that hard to comprehend? DPG seemed to understand it fine. I was simply pointing out that many people here assume you hate Manu and don't recognize all he has done for this franchise if you even hint at the fact that he's overpaid. I was mocking them. Stop being so defensive.Yeah my bad. For some reason I thought you were directing your comment at DGP. Sorry. Yeah, I agree with you. People automatically assume that one is a Manu hater if you don't agree with their blind faith in Manu.

So yeah, to all of those that are calling us Manu haters:
LMAO, please get Manu's coc* off your mouth. DPG21920 is one of the most knowledgeable persons on ST. So is Bruno and Chinook.

[AFBlue]

Well done timvp, well done.

[jestersmash]

Can you read the comments before you state your opinion? Stop with this "Manu took a 50% pay cut" argument because he didn't . If you read the comments above, you'll note that Manu DID NOT take a pay cut from his market value. If Manu would have taken a 50% pay cut, then he should of resigned for $3.5M/year or $7M/2year and not the bloated $14M/2 year contract that he took. In my very personal opinion, Manu's not even worth $7M/year market value but that's just me.

Jesus christ try and put 2 and 2 together next time :lmao. I'm arguing that Manu was overpaid. I brought up Duncan's 50% cut to show that Manu deserved less given that he didn't perform nearly as well as Duncan did.

[jestersmash]

Manu made 107 M in his NBA career. gross.
That makes 65 M net?
Plus the endorsements.

I dont' think Nicola AND Dante' grandsons will have a bit of a financial problem.

Well, inheritance taxes become pretty steep after the first $3M or $5M or so. But yeah, $50M+ net is more than enough to ensure an upper class lifestyle for your progeny forever.

[ElNono]

KFU-wXsRhic

[rascal]

Whatever, the Big Three will all finish together and be done in two years and that's the point. Good for the Spurs to stay together and good for Manu to get his lifetime achievement award.

The Spurs haven't won a title going on 7 years now and year in and year out they try with the same team.

[TheGreatYacht]

Jesus christ try and put 2 and 2 together next time :lmao. I'm arguing that Manu was overpaid. I brought up Duncan's 50% cut to show that Manu deserved less given that he didn't perform nearly as well as Duncan did.
It's always hard to judge these things, but my thought process is roughly as follows -

Tim took a 50% pay cut after coming off a solid 15.4/9/2 season on very good efficiency for a big man (49.2% from the field), and that's not even considering what he brings to defense. He had one of his best defensive seasons last season in addition to improving his offensive stats, but nobody could've guessed that so we can only really go by his '11-'12 numbers.

Manu had his worst (or maybe 2nd worst) season in the history of his career from efficiency to injuries to you name it. He also took a 50% pay cut.

Tim's 50% cut is the metric I use to judge Manu.Your wording was a little misleading.

[Baam]

It's the most stupid thing in the world to want the big 3 to leave at the same time, they didn't arrive at the same time and are not attached at the hip, it's stupid.

Beli is probably gonna be better than tosb Manu this season, they blew their capspace to sell tickets and jerseys...

[AusEM]

Did everyone forget that the NBA is a business?
How much money do you think the Spurs make from selling tickets. Full season, sell-out every home game.
Now, how many salaries (players, admin, etc...) can they pay with that?
Most of the money comes from tv deals (ask the Lakers). That is where Manu's value comes in.
So, if you are in charge of a company, will you let a guy who brings money by getting tv stations overseas
interested in showing the games walk?
Let's say they "only" give Manu $5 m/year. And he goes to, say, Clippers. Not only you are losing money, you are
directly helping a competitor to make more money than you do. Because they will think about money, and know
that people are going to follow Manu even if he only plays 5 minutes per game. They will still tune in.
This money is not for what he can do on the basketball court. This is business.
Do you also believe you know more than Holt &co. about business?

[jestersmash]

Your wording was a little misleading.

Yeah I guess I should've been more clear. I'm using definition #1 when I say "pay cut" to mean a numerical cut in salary from the previous year.

"Pay cut" as it's being used in this thread can also mean a cut in salary relative to market value.

[TheGreatYacht]

Did everyone forget that the NBA is a business?
How much money do you think the Spurs make from selling tickets. Full season, sell-out every home game.
Now, how many salaries (players, admin, etc...) can they pay with that?
Most of the money comes from tv deals (ask the Lakers). That is where Manu's value comes in.
So, if you are in charge of a company, will you let a guy who brings money by getting tv stations overseas
interested in showing the games walk?
Let's say they "only" give Manu $5 m/year. And he goes to, say, Clippers. Not only you are losing money, you are
directly helping a competitor to make more money than you do. Because they will think about money, and know
that people are going to follow Manu even if he only plays 5 minutes per game. They will still tune in.
This money is not for what he can do on the basketball court. This is business.
Do you also believe you know more than Holt &co. about business?Why can't championships and business go hand in hand? Manu taking less $$$ and trading Bonner would have yielded a better FA signing such as Jarrett Jack (not that FO was interested in him) or AK47. Manu WAS NOT going anywhere, I mean no way in hell that any contender team would overpay Manu $14M as we did. I think Manu is loyal enough to not leave the Spurs but not loyal enough to give us a discount.

[yavozerb]

Why can't championships and business go hand in hand? Manu taking less $$$ and trading Bonner would have yielded a better FA signing such as Jarrett Jack (not that FO was interested in him) or AK47. Manu WAS NOT going anywhere, I mean no way in hell that any contender team would overpay Manu $14M as we did. I think Manu is loyal enough to not leave the Spurs but not loyal enough to give us a discount.

You ask questions which we will never get answers for. Time to move on.:deadhorse

[TheGreatYacht]

You ask questions which we will never get answers for. Time to move on.:deadhorsetimvp was the one that blew on them ashes. This was bound to happen.

[ElNono]

Why can't championships and business go hand in hand? Manu taking less $$$ and trading Bonner would have yielded a better FA signing such as Jarrett Jack (not that FO was interested in him) or AK47. Manu WAS NOT going anywhere, I mean no way in hell that any contender team would overpay Manu $14M as we did. I think Manu is loyal enough to not leave the Spurs but not loyal enough to give us a discount.

Bruce Blitz doesn't have a YouTube for that?

[tesseractive]

It's the most stupid thing in the world to want the big 3 to leave at the same time, they didn't arrive at the same time and are not attached at the hip, it's stupid.

Beli is probably gonna be better than tosb Manu this season, they blew their capspace to sell tickets and jerseys...
Yes, it's just a catastrophe that the Spurs are trying to hang on to all the veterans they can to keep the team competitive as Tim finishes his career. What are they thinking?

[HI-FI]

Gotta sell those jerseys. Manu speaks spanish, that's all that matters to large segment of casual Spurs fans.
There's no basketball reason to make such a commitment to a scrub.
ive said the same on here. It would be interesting Ginobili would be perceived if he was a hippie, Anglo looking dude from the US. people would most likely be far more critical of his brainfarts and unreliability. However, him speaking Spanish has also elevated his appeal, which sells more jerseys, so I guess that's a big reason for the overpaying.


This gets overstated all the time on this board. Ginobili was a free agent twice, with this off-season being the second time. The first time, there was a rumored offer from Denver which was six years, $8-9 Million a year. Ginobili ended up signing for six years starting at about $6 Million. Why he signed for six years, I have no idea. Even if he were all about sacrifice, he didn't have to sign for that long. But I think he did because that was best offer that was actually extended to him. But whatever.

After he was almost done with that contract, he signed for a max extension in lieu of going to free agency. Before people laud him for that sacrifice, remember he had just come off one of his worse seasons, and there were serious thoughts that the team was going to trade him away or at least let him walk. Washington offered the fifth-overall pick and Arenas for him, which the Spurs thankfully rejected. Then Ginobili blows up and signed his extension, which gave him the security he needed in case he had a bad finish to the year.

Manu could have tried to wait until free agency to try for a max offer. During his prime, he probably could have gotten one. But he also signed hefty deals with the Spurs to forgo that. He's never done anything like Duncan and purposefully took less so that the team could stay together (at least from what's been confirmed). If anything, he was like Parker in that he signed long-term deals at the wrong times. That doesn't make him a money-grubbing selfish player now. But it also didn't make him a saint then.
/ thread

[tesseractive]

I think he's received fair deals his whole career and that he received another one this season. Most people think he was heavily underpaid and/or overpaid at various points of his career. I don't.
I realize this is kind of a semantics issue, but you can say that he's received fair deals and still believe that there have been years when it turned out that he was underpaid or overpaid -- which is to say, years where his production per cap figure was an exceptionally good deal, or a not-so-good deal. That's not the same thing as the "he took less than he could have" argument at all, of course.

[Leetonidas]

Crofl, hyperbole much? The fact is SA is a special small market. The best player in the history of the franchise has taken much less than he is worth to give the team a shot a title and is still elite and performing. TP is making way less than market value and improving his game. The only guy that is not improving is also the only one not sacrificing any money for the team. I can understand how that does not sit well with people. I am also happy he is back. They are not mutually exclusive.

I've echoed this sentiment many times but I just get called a hater tbh CoMers are a raibid group and even though I mention numerous times Ginobili is my 2nd favorite player ever and I wanted him back all they can focus is on the fact that I/you/a lot of us think he is overpaid and kinda fucked us this offseason in terms of getting a decent FA

[diego]

to me the stupid things about all this bitching with manu's salary-

A) lets assume manu took the vet min... for what? so the team could throw 8-9 mill at AK? do you people realize that he would play even less than manu being behind leonard, has always been a lesser player than manu(even being 4 years younger), and his skillset doesnt fix the spurs biggest problem in the finals (secondary playmaker)? to spend 10m+ on monta blackhole cant shoot for shit ellis? even for 10 million, name one player who could be the secondary playmaker better than manu... The only possibility is Jack, and while he might be able to fit the reality is he also has large warts to his game (no concept of D as in manu's open game winner, and a tendency to chuck up terrible shots. just go to a gsw forum during the PO, most people wanted to hang him).

B) A lot of people are talking about timmy's sacrifice and manu underperforming while being the highest paid player. When manu was playing with a broken nose in the 2010 playoffs, timmy and tony got their shit pushed in by a pathetic suns team (not the frikin heatles). that year, manu was making less than half of timmy' salary, 4 million less than that faggot RJ and 2 mill less than parker. should manu have lost faith in timmy and tony and the FO then? where were all the people crying about timmy's 22 million salary? (I do remember plenty of people were ready to bury timmy, but I dont recall anyone talking about his salary). 2010-11, manu was UNDOUBTEDLY the best player on this team and he made less than duncan and parker, again almost half of duncan's salary.


C) Manu absolutely sacrificed for this team. first by letting pop use him as a 6th man (only to throw him into the starting lineup everytime shit hit the fan), which is not a small thing. Second, he wasted a lot his prime carrying a bunch of garbage players, like bogans, RMJ, RJ, udoka, bonner, elson, corpse of finley etc etc etc. You really think that a guy like jarret jack would have been able to lead the playoff charge in 09-10 (when manu signed his extension and went on a crazy run to finish the season) with teammates like that? Its very nice that leonard, green, and splitter have come along so nicely, but just a few years back (amd for several years runnning) the spurs had absolute shit outside the big 3, and manu didnt have the luxury of playing most of his minutes with parker and duncan the way they did together.

d) i've seen people go on and on about games 6 and 7 of the finals. look at this:
Tony parker averages games 6 and 7:
14.5 pts 17.5 FGA 1.5 reb 6 ast 1 TO 2.5 stl .257 FG
39.6 minutes
Manu ginobili averages games 6 and 7:
13.5 pts 8.5 FGA 3.5 reb 4 ast 6 TO .5 stl .471FG
34.9 minutes

yes, manu's TO were an issue. but so was Parkers' shooting. who had more expectation going in, manu or parker? who was the team's leader, main scorer, and who had been reduced for the past two years to being an assist man for 20 minutes a night?

I'm willing to bet anyone that parker in 5 years can't play a season with a PER of 19/16.5 rs/po the way manu just did. and dont compare with duncan, first he's a top 10 player all time and second you cant compare his style of play with penetrating guards like tony and manu.

I'm disappointed with manu's PO just like everyone else, but there is no way you can rationally justify blaming manu's struggles for the finals loss and shrug parker's struggles away. outside of a few clutch shots parker was pretty terrible and a shadow of the player he was for the bulk of the season. all that said credit the heat, and applaud the fact we were able to take them to the final minutes of game 7 with an aging big 3 and some kids when most didnt even expect us to reach the WCF.

[ducks]

tp had a sprain hamspring
manu was suppose to be able to be the other creator

[diego]

manu had sprained hammys all season, and is in the twilight of his career not his god damn prime. if parker was so beat up he could have passed the ball more instead of getting stuffed 7 times in the series.

manu's TO numbers would have looked a lot better if he forced bad shots instead of trying to set other people up for open shots.

manu's to + blocked attempts= 23
timmy's to + blocked attempts= 23
tony's to + blocked attempts = 22

[Strategic]

At least this year when Manu's dribbling a football and throwing balloon passes I won't be thinking that the teams' highest paid player is a hack.

[ElNono]

Crofl, hyperbole much? The fact is SA is a special small market. The best player in the history of the franchise has taken much less than he is worth to give the team a shot a title and is still elite and performing. TP is making way less than market value and improving his game. The only guy that is not improving is also the only one not sacrificing any money for the team. I can understand how that does not sit well with people. I am also happy he is back. They are not mutually exclusive.

link?

[therealtruth]

manu had sprained hammys all season, and is in the twilight of his career not his god damn prime. if parker was so beat up he could have passed the ball more instead of getting stuffed 7 times in the series.

manu's TO numbers would have looked a lot better if he forced bad shots instead of trying to set other people up for open shots.

manu's to + blocked attempts= 23
timmy's to + blocked attempts= 23
tony's to + blocked attempts = 22

Without the amount of minutes that is pretty useless. TP and TD played more minutes than Manu.

[diego]

tim and tony played about 25% more for the series.

the heats biggest win in the series was the game manu played less than 20 minutes and attempted 6 shots. in fact, games 2 4 and 6 which were by far his worst he shot less than 6 attempts per game.

[ducks]

did you see the +- numbers when manu was on the floor in playoffs

[ElNono]

It's not complicated, and IMO, no right or wrong. Manu was ranked #11 in production (PER) among guards last season in the entire league. (http://bkref.com/tiny/r7kCw)

The average salary amongst the top 10 guards was $11.3m (and that includes at least 4 rookie deals, Irving, Curry, Harden & Wall).

After that, you had Calderon at #12 making $11m in Detroit (now signed a $7.5m/season deal with the Mavs). Conley after that, who will be making about $8m. So, you know, production wise, it's easy to see why the Spurs might've thought somebody might throw $8m-$10m at Manu by looking at the hard numbers alone. Under that view, $7m, give or take, it's an excellent deal, especially since it's only a 2 season deal. You could even argue he made a "significant sacrifice" signing at that kind of money, since his market value could've been potentially bigger.

Fact is, the Spurs didn't want to find out what the market value was. They wanted to make sure he would be back because they value what he does and think replacing that it's going to be very difficult (RC Buford words). Disagreeing with that is fine. At the end of the day one opinion isn't any different than another.

[TMTTRIO]

Sometimes I wish Manu had left the team when he had the chance in '04 so we wouldn't even have these conversations now and so we can't always put the blame on him when we don't win a championship. Oh I also would've loved to see him as a starter on a team during the prime of his career and what he could've done instead of being a sixth man for most of it.

[ducks]

per what manu is stupid he can not play over 30 minutes
before allstar game he should not even play over 20

[Chinook]

I realize this is kind of a semantics issue, but you can say that he's received fair deals and still believe that there have been years when it turned out that he was underpaid or overpaid -- which is to say, years where his production per cap figure was an exceptionally good deal, or a not-so-good deal. That's not the same thing as the "he took less than he could have" argument at all, of course.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. I think a lot of people think either he chose to take less in 2004 or took too much in 2010. I think both deals were fair given the situations surrounding the negotiations. I also think that both sides got a good return on investment through the lives of that $91M/9 contract plus extension. That's a lot of money, security and commitment for both sides. It was a good decision then, and it's a good decision now. This $14.5M/2 deal looks good now. It may not in the future, though.

[ElNono]

Sometimes I wish Manu had left the team when he had the chance in '04 so we wouldn't even have these conversations now and so we can't always put the blame on him when we don't win a championship. Oh I also would've loved to see him as a starter on a team during the prime of his career and what he could've done instead of being a sixth man for most of it.

I'm looking forward to his next two seasons as a Spur. Just like the 11 that preceded them.

[TXstbobcat]

I want to see Manu finish his career wearing a spurs jersey. I didn't want the spurs to take a chance of another team signing him. I'm glad they locked him up for 2 more years.

[Robz4000]

timvp isn't gonna rest until someone on here is driven into rage-induced convulsions irl. Must still be coping with the Finals loss still or just bored. Prolly a bit of both.

[therealtruth]

Sometimes I wish Manu had left the team when he had the chance in '04 so we wouldn't even have these conversations now and so we can't always put the blame on him when we don't win a championship. Oh I also would've loved to see him as a starter on a team during the prime of his career and what he could've done instead of being a sixth man for most of it.

I agree. I think Pop has screwed him out of alot accolades. The guy's a winner so I am sure he would have been pretty good on any decent team.

[Johnny RIngo]

This contract, coming off of the letdown he was to Tim and TP and Pop in the finals, was a bit greedy. But I digress.

What do you expect from someone that thought his Finals performance was "so-so"

[Johnny RIngo]

Sometimes I wish Manu had left the team when he had the chance in '04 so we wouldn't even have these conversations now and so we can't always put the blame on him when we don't win a championship. Oh I also would've loved to see him as a starter on a team during the prime of his career and what he could've done instead of being a sixth man for most of it.

Manu's injury prone and can barely handle 20 mins a game right now. He wouldn't have lasted very long as a starter. The year he played the most games as a starter(2011) his body ended up breaking down right before the playoffs and missing the entire post-season.

Some posters have this deluded idea that Manu has sacrificed acclaim to be a backup when it's more likely the Spurs and the medical staff are trying their best to keep him healthy as long as possible considering his fragile body. Any other team would have probably forced Manu into early retirment after playing him 40 mins a game for a few years. He should thank the Spurs for extending his career - There's not that many injury prone guards that are still able to play in the NBA at age 36. Pop's unique minute management has been extremely beneficial to Ginobili's career and Manu pays back the Spurs by playing shitty FIBA ball for an irrelevant national team.

[Robz4000]

Manu's injury prone and can barely handle 20 mins a game right now. He wouldn't have lasted very long as a starter. The year he played the most games as a starter(2011) his body ended up breaking down right before the playoffs and missing every post-season game.

The fuck? Manu's body didn't break down. He broke his elbow in a freak incident that could've happened in any game. He also only missed one game, not the entire series.

[ElNono]

Some posters have this deluded idea that Manu has sacrificed acclaim to be a backup when it's more likely the Spurs and the medical staff are trying their best to keep him healthy as long as possible considering his fragile body. Any other team would have probably forced Manu into early retirment after playing him 40 mins a game for a few years. He should thank the Spurs for extending his career - There's not that many injury prone guards that are still able to play in the NBA at age 36. Pop's unique minute management has been extremely beneficial to Ginobili's career and Manu pays back the Spurs by playing shitty FIBA ball for an irrelevant national team.

You sound upset. :lol

Pop himself has lauded many times Manu's selflessness and embracing the role that the coach has given him, putting aside any personal glory.

It's clear that kind of leadership is what the Spurs want for the team, otherwise, they wouldn't keep on handing out the bills and praising what he brings to this team.

[Johnny RIngo]

You sound upset. :lol

Pop himself has lauded many times Manu's selflessness and embracing the role that the coach has given him, putting aside any personal glory.

It's clear that kind of leadership is what the Spurs want for the team, otherwise, they wouldn't keep on handing out the bills and praising what he brings to this team.

Says the guys that's been in damage control mode ever since his Argie hero shit the bed in the Finals.

[ElNono]

Says the guys that's been in damage control mode ever since his Argie hero shit the bed in the Finals.

:lol you're still upset and still didn't address my post at all

Why would they keep on handing out the bills and praising what he brings to this team if "Manu pays back the Spurs by playing shitty FIBA ball for an irrelevant national team"?

[Johnny RIngo]

Why would they keep on handing out the bills

Because they don't want to end up like Dallas and gamble on the free agent market? For example, AK will have a better season than Ginobili next year but Spurs were not going to let Ginobili go in the off chace that AK signs with SA. Coincidentally, he ended up making a backdoor deal for a Russian owner so Spurs were correct in resigning Manu...even if he is overpaid and washed up.


and praising what he brings to this team if "Manu pays back the Spurs by playing shitty FIBA ball for an irrelevant national team"?

Pop praises everyone on the team - from Duncan all the way down to Joseph and Nando. And they probably don't want to bruise Manu's ego more than it already has after that trainwreck of a post-season.

[ElNono]

Because they don't want to end up like Dallas and gamble on the free agent market? For example, AK will have a better season than Ginobili next year but Spurs were not going to let Ginobili go in the off chace that AK signs with SA. Coincidentally, he ended up making a backdoor deal for a Russian owner so Spurs were correct in resigning Manu...even if he is overpaid and washed up.

So you're saying the Spurs are a savvy organization because they don't gamble in the FA market, but also 'overpay' for 'washed up' talent? :lol


Pop praises everyone on the team - from Duncan all the way down to Joseph and Nando. And they probably don't want to bruise Manu's ego more than it already has after that trainwreck of a post-season.

Why would they throw all that money and praise to a talent that, according to you, they resent, hurts the team, and has a bruised ego when they could just walk away from him?

I think it's patently obvious they don't share your asshurt about Manu, and they evaluate his talent quite differently. But then again, that's why they run one of the most successful franchises in american sports history, while, well, you're just here.

[tenbeersbold]

So you're saying the Spurs are a savvy organization because they don't gamble in the FA market, but also 'overpay' for 'washed up' talent? :lol



Why would they throw all that money and praise to a talent that, according to you, they resent, hurts the team, and has a bruised ego when they could just walk away from him?

I think it's patently obvious they don't share your asshurt about Manu, and they evaluate his talent quite differently. But then again, that's why they run one of the most successful franchises in american sports history, while, well, you're just here.

Manu is STILL in SA cause a people like you,he appeals to simpletons who can't see beyond a flag/language,who happen to purchase a lot of tickets and jerseys.

It's business pure and simple

Cue the "asshurt" burns from the peanut gallery

[Seventyniner]

that trainwreck of a post-season.

wat

[Brazil]

:lmao ElNono still :spinning dat shit

[peacemaker885]

I guess all of this puts pressure on Manu for the next two seasons. Being internet savvy I'm pretty sure he reads ST. Hopefully he can use all of this energy to help us to get to the finals again. We need the old Manu back.

[Spur-Addict]

:lmao ElNono still :spinning dat shit

Somebody has to defend him :lol

[xmas1997]

Some people have nothing better to do and just want to cast blame. It gets tiring to read all the whiners.

[Mel_13]

timvp throwing raw meat to a pack of wolves with predictable results...

[TMTTRIO]

Manu's injury prone and can barely handle 20 mins a game right now. He wouldn't have lasted very long as a starter. The year he played the most games as a starter(2011) his body ended up breaking down right before the playoffs and missing the entire post-season.

Some posters have this deluded idea that Manu has sacrificed acclaim to be a backup when it's more likely the Spurs and the medical staff are trying their best to keep him healthy as long as possible considering his fragile body. Any other team would have probably forced Manu into early retirment after playing him 40 mins a game for a few years. He should thank the Spurs for extending his career - There's not that many injury prone guards that are still able to play in the NBA at age 36. Pop's unique minute management has been extremely beneficial to Ginobili's career and Manu pays back the Spurs by playing shitty FIBA ball for an irrelevant national team.

So it wouldn't have been our problem anymore would it and who cares if Manu retired early? If he was so fragile like you're saying he is they should of never brought him over to play in the NBA and I don't think all those teams would've been after him during his prime years.

[ohmwrecker]

Manu will be playing for his legacy these next 2 seasons. I don't believe he is the kind of dude that is satisfied with where it currently stands. I hope I'm not wrong.

[ElNono]

Manu is STILL in SA cause a people like you,he appeals to simpletons who can't see beyond a flag/language,who happen to purchase a lot of tickets and jerseys.

It's business pure and simple

Cue the "asshurt" burns from the peanut gallery

I'm sure that's one of the reasons, but they had no problem letting go of other fan favorite players before. Bowen, Malik Rose, etc, so there's clearly more to it than just that. Ultimately, winning is what put people in seats.

The Spurs certainly aren't looking to appeal to me. I live on the other side of the country, tbh...


:lmao ElNono still :spinning dat shit

:lol I'm bored and addressing the 'Spurs have a love/hate relationship with Manu' canard and the revisionist history seemed like a good way to kill some time.


timvp throwing raw meat to a pack of wolves with predictable results...

:lol

[mountainballer]

Mel
no insult to wolves please!

[FRE3]

maybe if he didn't play int'l bball this summer he will get the incentive of $500k???

[Brazil]

I'm sure that's one of the reasons, but they had no problem letting go of other fan favorite players before. Bowen, Malik Rose, etc, so there's clearly more to it than just that. Ultimately, winning is what put people in seats.

The Spurs certainly aren't looking to appeal to me. I live on the other side of the country, tbh...



:lol I'm bored and addressing the 'Spurs have a love/hate relationship with Manu' canard and the revisionist history seemed like a good way to kill some time.



:lol

Offseason duties tbh :lol

How's is life ? Family work?

[Stabula]

Fuck this idea of "we need to be loyal to Manu and get him paid for all he's done for SA in the past". Manu, today, is not worth this much money it doesn't matter how amazing he was a decade ago.

[TheGreatYacht]

Fuck this idea of "we need to be loyal to Manu and get him paid for all he's done for SA in the past". Manu, today, is not worth this much money it doesn't matter how amazing he was a decade ago.http://blogs.orlandoweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/chuck-norris-thumbs-up.jpg

[ElNono]

Offseason duties tbh :lol

How's is life ? Family work?

Busy busy busy... it's just such a tease out there with 90 degrees... pretty hot summer for the northeast... sup with you? how's winter down south?

[HI-FI]

:lmao ElNono still :spinning dat shit
Nigga went from Jay Carney in the regular season to Ari Fleischer since 6. I don't know what will cause him to stop spinning. Perhaps if Manu blew 2 more finals for us and was involved in some horrible murder scandal, there would be a slight chance the spinning would ease up. I have to admit, like Leni Riefenstahl, he makes propaganda into an art.

[cjw]

This gets overstated all the time on this board. Ginobili was a free agent twice, with this off-season being the second time. The first time, there was a rumored offer from Denver which was six years, $8-9 Million a year. Ginobili ended up signing for six years starting at about $6 Million. Why he signed for six years, I have no idea. Even if he were all about sacrifice, he didn't have to sign for that long. But I think he did because that was best offer that was actually extended to him. But whatever.

After he was almost done with that contract, he signed for a max extension in lieu of going to free agency. Before people laud him for that sacrifice, remember he had just come off one of his worse seasons, and there were serious thoughts that the team was going to trade him away or at least let him walk. Washington offered the fifth-overall pick and Arenas for him, which the Spurs thankfully rejected. Then Ginobili blows up and signed his extension, which gave him the security he needed in case he had a bad finish to the year.

Manu could have tried to wait until free agency to try for a max offer. During his prime, he probably could have gotten one. But he also signed hefty deals with the Spurs to forgo that. He's never done anything like Duncan and purposefully took less so that the team could stay together (at least from what's been confirmed). If anything, he was like Parker in that he signed long-term deals at the wrong times. That doesn't make him a money-grubbing selfish player now. But it also didn't make him a saint then.

Thank you. He could have taken a discount, but in retrospect any reasonable discount wouldn't have put the team under the cap to a point where it could exceed the full MLE. And it turned out there just weren't players out there to sign for the entire MLE. To me, it's water under the bridge at this point, who really cares? Kevin Martin got paid the same amount annually for 2x the years and he's what Simmons would call a DH. Doesn't play a lick of D.

[ElNono]

Nigga went from Jay Carney in the regular season to Ari Fleischer since 6. I don't know what will cause him to stop spinning. Perhaps if Manu blew 2 more finals for us and was involved in some horrible murder scandal, there would be a slight chance the spinning would ease up. I have to admit, like Leni Riefenstahl, he makes propaganda into an art.

:lol

[Brazil]

Busy busy busy... it's just such a tease out there with 90 degrees... pretty hot summer for the northeast... sup with you? how's winter down south?

Favorite season of the year. No rain super sunny healthy temperature at night to sleep. Paradise ! Love my house and I'm on holidays for two weeks with my parents visiting us. We are having a good time. :tu

[Dverde]

One positive thing is that the Spurs have shown other players that if you win championships, the franchise will reward you for it.

[TheGoldStandard]

One positive thing is that the Spurs have shown other players that if you win championships, the franchise will reward you for it.

Or if you're name is Matt Bonner

[poeticism707]

This gets overstated all the time on this board. Ginobili was a free agent twice, with this off-season being the second time. The first time, there was a rumored offer from Denver which was six years, $8-9 Million a year. Ginobili ended up signing for six years starting at about $6 Million. Why he signed for six years, I have no idea. Even if he were all about sacrifice, he didn't have to sign for that long. But I think he did because that was best offer that was actually extended to him. But whatever.

After he was almost done with that contract, he signed for a max extension in lieu of going to free agency. Before people laud him for that sacrifice, remember he had just come off one of his worse seasons, and there were serious thoughts that the team was going to trade him away or at least let him walk. Washington offered the fifth-overall pick and Arenas for him, which the Spurs thankfully rejected. Then Ginobili blows up and signed his extension, which gave him the security he needed in case he had a bad finish to the year.

Manu could have tried to wait until free agency to try for a max offer. During his prime, he probably could have gotten one. But he also signed hefty deals with the Spurs to forgo that. He's never done anything like Duncan and purposefully took less so that the team could stay together (at least from what's been confirmed). If anything, he was like Parker in that he signed long-term deals at the wrong times. That doesn't make him a money-grubbing selfish player now. But it also didn't make him a saint then.


LOL at thinking Manu was EVER A MAX PLAYER.

I suppose anyone who thought Manu was, at any point in his career, better than Dirk, I guess this fits.

Homerism is a degenerative disease.

[ducks]

people here thought he was better then kobe

[Chinook]

LOL at thinking Manu was EVER A MAX PLAYER.

I suppose anyone who thought Manu was, at any point in his career, better than Dirk, I guess this fits.

Homerism is a degenerative disease.

Why did you quote me when you said that? My post is pretty neutral and just explains why Ginobili got the deals he did.

[poeticism707]

people here thought he was better then kobe

:rollin:rollin:rollin

[poeticism707]

Why did you quote me when you said that? My post is pretty neutral and just explains why Ginobili got the deals he did.

You brought Manu "possibly trying for a Max contract."

The only place Manu is worth a Max contract is the D-League.

Edit: at no point in his career, was Manu a Max level player.

Don't even think such thoughts.

[Chinook]

You brought Manu "possibly trying for a Max contract."

The only place Manu is worth a Max contract is the D-League.

I don't mean now, but I do mean when he was in his prime, or even after the 2010 season, when a record number of players got max deals. If players such as Rudy Gay and Joe Johnson could get $82 Million and $120 Million, respectively, you better believe Ginobili could have gotten a two- or three-year max deal coming off a 19/6/4 year while also leading the league in steals. Hell, Amare Stoudimire got $100 Million after having two near-career-ending injuries. That off-season was crazy.

[poeticism707]

It's not complicated, and IMO, no right or wrong. Manu was ranked #11 in production (PER) among guards last season in the entire league. (http://bkref.com/tiny/r7kCw)

The average salary amongst the top 10 guards was $11.3m (and that includes at least 4 rookie deals, Irving, Curry, Harden & Wall).

After that, you had Calderon at #12 making $11m in Detroit (now signed a $7.5m/season deal with the Mavs). Conley after that, who will be making about $8m. So, you know, production wise, it's easy to see why the Spurs might've thought somebody might throw $8m-$10m at Manu by looking at the hard numbers alone. Under that view, $7m, give or take, it's an excellent deal, especially since it's only a 2 season deal. You could even argue he made a "significant sacrifice" signing at that kind of money, since his market value could've been potentially bigger.

Fact is, the Spurs didn't want to find out what the market value was. They wanted to make sure he would be back because they value what he does and think replacing that it's going to be very difficult (RC Buford words). Disagreeing with that is fine. At the end of the day one opinion isn't any different than another.

Great facts as usual, Nono, but irrelevant. The Spurs win 55 games a season every year, because of Duncan, TP, Pop, and the program. The regular season is beyond irrelevant. The playoffs is where you earn your money, or your loser rep. You know, Finals, Spurs up 5, 28 secs to go, and so called super Manu misses a free throw like the old, washed up scrub he is, and Spurs lose. Nevermind his 10 turnovers a game or so.

Manu had a chance to justify the Spurs staying with him, even when has foolishly spent his body every Summer for free, and even with Pop's mastermind limiting of his mins, he still has been hurt bad every year badly in the Playoffs since 2007.

I would have ABSOLUTELY TAKEN ELLIS FOR 7.25M A YEAR OVER MANU.

[ElNono]

Great facts as usual, Nono, but irrelevant. The Spurs win 55 games a season every year, because of Duncan, TP, Pop, and the program. The regular season is beyond irrelevant. The playoffs is where you earn your money, or your loser rep. You know, Finals, Spurs up 5, 28 secs to go, and so called super Manu misses a free throw like the old, washed up scrub he is, and Spurs lose. Nevermind his 10 turnovers a game or so.

Manu had a chance to justify the Spurs staying with him, even when has foolishly spent his body every Summer for free, and even with Pop's mastermind limiting of his mins, he still has been hurt bad every year badly in the Playoffs since 2007.

I would have ABSOLUTELY TAKEN ELLIS FOR 7.25M A YEAR OVER MANU.

Well, it isn't irrelevant when we're looking at a contract that was just signed, and looking at where that value might come from.

You might not agree with the Spurs handing that contract to Manu, and that's fine. I particularly don't think the Spurs knee-jerk over a particular series or playoff run, and rather take the long view. Much like when Green couldn't hit anything in the WCF a season ago, and yet they handed him a contract right afterwards.

Personally, I like Ellis, but I don't think he would work in what the Spurs need from that position. They need a distributor, a guy that can play the pick and roll with Tiago and that can "run" the offense, not "be" the offense.

Ideally, I would've preferred to keep Manu and bring another skilled player that can create his own shot and command some attention in the second unit. Belinelli might be that guy, but obviously the jury is still out on that.

[poeticism707]

Well, it isn't irrelevant when we're looking at a contract that was just signed, and looking at where that value might come from.

You might not agree with the Spurs handing that contract to Manu, and that's fine. I particularly don't think the Spurs knee-jerk over a particular series or playoff run, and rather take the long view. Much like when Green couldn't hit anything in the WCF a season ago, and yet they handed him a contract right afterwards.

Personally, I like Ellis, but I don't think he would work in what the Spurs need from that position. They need a distributor, a guy that can play the pick and roll with Tiago and that can "run" the offense, not "be" the offense.

Ideally, I would've preferred to keep Manu and bring another skilled player that can create his own shot and command some attention in the second unit. Belinelli might be that guy, but obviously the jury is still out on that.

If we even saw 70% of reg. season Manu in the playoffs, the Spurs would be champs, and this wouldn't even be a thread.

But in the latter rounds of the playoffs and the finals, when you meet elite defensive teams, Manu becomes MUCH easier to figure out, which is why Miami picked off every cross court Manu pass, which is why the Spurs lost.

Which is why I'd roll the dice on Ellis, even though he isn't half the distributor Manu is, because Manu sucks now against elite defensive teams.

And there are only elite defensive teams in the finals, not the Golden State Warriors.

[ElNono]

If we even saw 70% of reg. season Manu in the playoffs, the Spurs would be champs, and this wouldn't even be a thread.

But in the latter rounds of the playoffs and the finals, when you meet elite defensive teams, Manu becomes MUCH easier to figure out, which is why Miami picked off every cross court Manu pass, which is why the Spurs lost.

Which is why I'd roll the dice on Ellis, even though he isn't half the distributor Manu is, because Manu sucks now against elite defensive teams.

And there are only elite defensive teams in the finals, not the Golden State Warriors.

Well, I disagree that's the sole reason why the Spurs lost. I thought, errors and all, they were good enough to win it all. One bounce or rebound goes our way and this wouldn't even be a thread either.

Again, I like Monta, but I think the biggest issue the Spurs have with that second unit is too many players that don't command enough attention and can't create their own shot (Tiago, Bonner, Blair, Neal, CoJo, etc etc). Manu himself can be up and down on that aspect at this point in his career, so it becomes easier to plan for. Something I brought up during the regular season was the over reliance on offense on the pick and roll, and frankly, that second unit is pretty much all it runs due to the personnel we had. The departures of Blair, and perhaps Neal, and the addition of Pendergraph and Belli (both of which seem to have a mid-range game) will likely change the looks of some of that, and I think it's no coincidence the Spurs went looking for that skillset.

I don't disagree Monta can be useful when you need to rely on heavy ISO situations, but I think what the Spurs would prefer (and this is just my opinion) is a way to make most of the players on that second unit be productive on the offensive end. Something that didn't necessarily happen even during the regular season.

[therealtruth]

Well, I disagree that's the sole reason why the Spurs lost. I thought, errors and all, they were good enough to win it all. One bounce or rebound goes our way and this wouldn't even be a thread either.

Again, I like Monta, but I think the biggest issue the Spurs have with that second unit is too many players that don't command enough attention and can't create their own shot (Tiago, Bonner, Blair, Neal, CoJo, etc etc). Manu himself can be up and down on that aspect at this point in his career, so it becomes easier to plan for. Something I brought up during the regular season was the over reliance on offense on the pick and roll, and frankly, that second unit is pretty much all it runs due to the personnel we had. The departures of Blair, and perhaps Neal, and the addition of Pendergraph and Belli (both of which seem to have a mid-range game) will likely change the looks of some of that, and I think it's no coincidence the Spurs went looking for that skillset.

I don't disagree Monta can be useful when you need to rely on heavy ISO situations, but I think what the Spurs would prefer (and this is just my opinion) is a way to make most of the players on that second unit be productive on the offensive end. Something that didn't necessarily happen even during the regular season.

I actually though isoball worked pretty well in game 5. I think we could have used it more in games 6 and 7. Don't forget Parker helped us take the 5pt lead late in game 6 when he got a rare chance to go against Chalmers. We should have used every opportunity to attack Chalmers, Miller, and Allen defensively. We didn't let the Heat pay enough for playing bad defenders.

[ElNono]

I actually though isoball worked pretty well in game 5. I think we could have used it more in games 6 and 7. Don't forget Parker helped us take the 5pt lead late in game 6 when he got a rare chance to go against Chalmers. We should have used every opportunity to attack Chalmers, Miller, and Allen defensively. We didn't let the Heat pay enough for playing bad defenders.

I understand what you're saying, but I think it's erroneous to circumscribe the analysis to just the Finals. That's not to say you don't take certain lessons from it, but IMO the Spurs feel pretty good about the formula that got them there, and personally that's the main reason why I expected them to be fairly conservative in the FA market. The Spurs already have talent to expand ISO situations (potentially Kawhi), but for the most part they still have a plethora of players that will live off ball movement (Tiago, Bonner, Diaw, Green, etc), so while I expect some mad scientist experiments from Pop as usual, I think the onus will be again on moving the ball and creating opportunities for everybody.

[therealtruth]

I understand what you're saying, but I think it's erroneous to circumscribe the analysis to just the Finals. That's not to say you don't take certain lessons from it, but IMO the Spurs feel pretty good about the formula that got them there, and personally that's the main reason why I expected them to be fairly conservative in the FA market. The Spurs already have talent to expand ISO situations (potentially Kawhi), but for the most part they still have a plethora of players that will live off ball movement (Tiago, Bonner, Diaw, Green, etc), so while I expect some mad scientist experiments from Pop as usual, I think the onus will be again on moving the ball and creating opportunities for everybody.

Like you're saying you can keep the formula but you have to be able to make the ingame adjustments. You can't wait till you lose the game before you make the adjustments. It may be too late by then. Pop's in game adjustment ability hasn't been all that great. It seems he goes into every game with a set game plan and doesn't waver.

[Baam]

Yeah besides "moving the ball" only really works when everyone is playing off Parker like we saw so basically we're in an even more precarious situation with a one year older TP and a 39 years old as the second option...

The only improvement would be Pop realizing that Manu is not the third banana anymore and actually start running plays for Kawhi.

[TheGreatYacht]

Yeah besides "moving the ball" only really works when everyone is playing off Parker like we saw so basically we're in an even more precarious situation with a one year older TP and a 39 years old as the second option...

The only improvement would be Pop realizing that Manu is not the third banana anymore and actually start running plays for Kawhi.Will Pop trust Kawhi more than Manu considering how stubborn Pop can be? Let's hope so.

[Baam]

Will Pop trust Kawhi more than Manu considering how stubborn Pop can be? Let's hope so.

I'm extremely skeptical about that as well, but if they don't Kawhi is leaving as soon as he can and Pop and Manu will have destroyed the Spurs for the next 10 years as well as being the primary culprits of two epic chokes.