Reasonable Pickups at Small Forward

[Kori Ellis]

Please use this thread to list available players that the Spurs could possibly pickup at small forward with the money they have left.

Build on this list:

Glenn Robinson
DerMarr Johnson
Theron Smith
Britton Johnsen
Matt Barnes
Toni Kukoc
Ryan Bowen
Maurice Evans

[Joesteds]

Guy that went undrafted and not sure as to where he is playing in summer league, but he worked out with Bob Hill this summer and he is very talented.

Stephen Graham- Oklahoma State, he will probably catch on somewhere else, but he is talented just like his brother.

[MannyIsGod]

Glen Robinson has to be the #1 target if you are not bringing in a young player

[spvrs]

How about Noel Felix??

I read that Seattle is playing him at the 3

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Ryan "The Germinator" Bowen? He did shut down Dirk in the playoffs...

[spurjur]

I like DeMarr Johnson. He is long and very young and I think he has potential. I like Glenn Robinson, but who knows if he will demand more playing time this next time around.

[Joesteds]

Dirk shut himself down in the playoffs with a hand around his throat. Ryan Bowen is just a tall, long player that tries really hard. I don't see him as a SF, especially since he cannot shoot. Dallas just left his ass open the whole time and dared him to shoot.

[spurster]

Don't forget LJ III.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Dirk shut himself down in the playoffs with a hand around his throat. Ryan Bowen is just a tall, long player that tries really hard. I don't see him as a SF, especially since he cannot shoot. Dallas just left his ass open the whole time and dared him to shoot.

I was only half serious. The real reason I want Ryan Bowen is because of a story I heard from a regular season game. Bruce Bowen was talking to a ref about how there were two sets of brothers playing in the game, Jon and Brent Barry, and he and brother his Ryan. :lol

[Extra Stout]

The Spurs can go two ways with small forwards:

1) Veteran stopgap

2) Young player to develop

The Spurs can get a quality young small forward in a trade for one of their centers, so they might as well go with the veteran stopgap for now.

[Joesteds]

Out of that initial list I like Dermarr Johnson. Very athletic swingman that they could still develop. Don't know if he could go at the right price. Maybe learn to be a stopper while playing with Bowen.

[Kori Ellis]

Check the posts in this thread as to why DerMarr Johnson might not be such a great pickup.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21743&page=2&highlight=free+agent%3A+dermarr

[Joesteds]

Good info. Thanks. But still if there is a franchise that could groom him its probably the Spurs.

[Solid D]

Ryan Humphrey

[FromWayDowntown]

I have this sneaking suspicion that the Spurs will bring back Big Dog. He was willing to do whatever they asked of him in the spring and unless something was moving in the background, that usually sits well with Popovich.

As the market starts to shut down, as teams that are over the cap and need SF help start spending their MLE's, there just aren't big contracts for Big Dog to chase, and given the available options, it makes sense for him to stay put, if the Spurs want him.

[spurjur]

Stephen Jackson was a hot head and somehow Pop helped him mature and turned him into a champion. I am not saying the same will happen with DJ, but it could happen. I think he could come cheap.

[Solid D]

Walter McCarty

[Solid D]

Bo Outlaw can play 3 or 4.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Big Dog. Sign. Him. Up.

He really impressed me this last year.

[Solid D]

Rodney White.

[SpursChampsIII]

Good info. Thanks. But still if there is a franchise that could groom him its probably the Spurs.

Agree. Sometimes the personal problems players seem to have exist in their current situation. Glenn Robinson and Rasheed Wallace were supposed to be BIG-TIME head cases, but placed into the right situation, they seemed to be ok. Dermarr would be worth the risk for a short-term contract.

[FromWayDowntown]

Big Dog. Sign. Him. Up.

He really impressed me this last year.

Big Dog doesn't solve the problem going forward, but if you're trying to defend the title, he's a nice piece to have around. We got some tantalizing glimpses of him last spring as he tried to regain his conditioning and then dealt with the death of his mother and the prolonged absence that followed; it made me wonder what he might bring if he had a full camp to get in shape and learn what the hell was going on. You can't often find guys who have enough innate talent to put up 23 point games on 9-11 shooting in the NBA on just sheer ability.

A healthy and conditioned Big Dog could have enough to make a run at the 6th Man award. A healthy and conditioned Big Dog, matched with a confident Brent Barry, a growing Beno Udrih, Mr. Horry, and one of Nazr/Rasho/Oberto could make for a very, very salty second group.

[Big Pimp_21]

would Kyle Korver be too expensive?

[Marcus Bryant]

What would make sense is to see the Spurs sign Big Dog to a 2 year deal with the remainder of the MLE and with a player option after the 1st year. Spurs get a 3 man for the bench who should be effective for the next 2 seasons. For Robinson, he gets a full season to prove himself to the NBA. From the Spurs' perspective, if he's worth keeping next summer then they will have his Early Bird rights to enable them to do so, should he opt out.

[Streakyshooter08]

The thing I like about Britton Johnson is that he has an outside game and is 6'10. So he is an young, athletic SF that can shoot the ball. Sounds like a good pickup. Of course Big Dog would be a good and more experienced backup...

[picnroll]

I want an unreasonable one, Pietrus.

[constantstate]

if we can afford him and we dont have any big trades looming for a small forward... robinson would be good to try out again. i dont think pop had that much of a chance to use him the way he would have liked and he seemed to want to fit in... and he looked good anyway.

[shyne]

trade scola and rasho for delphino, if he starts acting like a baby Manu and Fabri can slap him around a lil bit.

[SenorSpur]

Personally, I'd rather them resign Glenn Robinson - but wait there's something else!

I shudder at the mere thought of the suggestion I'm about to make, but how about Latrell Sprewell.

I know what you're thinking and I'm thinking the same thing. However given Pop relationship with him, he may be able to control this guy and get him to "buy into" the team concept - similar to the Glenn Robinson signing this past season. Assuming Spree is at a point in his career where he wants to win - rather than "feed his family" - Pop may be able to maximize whatever talent he has left.

As of now, don't look for Spree to resign with Minnesota. From the article below, it appears that he's run his course in Minny.

Wolves, Sprewell no longer talking

BY RICK ALONZO

Pioneer Press

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/36700/20050719/wolves_sprewell_no_longer_talking/


Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor said Monday that team officials have not talked to free agent Latrell Sprewell's representative about a new contract.

Don't expect that to change.

"We made an offer last year, and he said it wasn't enough," Taylor said, referring to a three-year, $21 million proposal that Sprewell turned down. "So we haven't pursued it."

Sprewell said he was insulted by the offer last season and that he had a family to feed.

Taylor wouldn't rule out Sprewell returning. But with no talks taking place between the parties, that prospect remains unlikely.

Sprewell's agent, Bob Gist, did not return phone messages.

Sprewell averaged a personal worst of 12.8 points a game last season, when he made $14.6 million.

Wouldn't you just love to see Spree back on the same team with P.J.?

[FromWayDowntown]

Personally, I'd rather them resign Glenn Robinson - but wait there's something else!

I shudder at the mere thought of the suggestion I'm about to make, but how about Latrell Sprewell.

It's out there, and it wouldn't totally surprise me if the Spurs pursued Sprewell, but it's not a move that I would make.


Pop may be able to maximize whatever talent he has left.

That's the problem. Sprewell is, IMO, a slasher/defender whose lost a step and a half at least. When he was at his best, even while he was with the Knicks, the thing that made Latrell dangerous was his ability to break his man down and get to the rack with some explosion. He was never a great shooter, per se. Unless he miraculously gains a step (maybe by ridding himself of that giant chip on his shoulder) Sprewell is a guy who can be confined to the perimeter by good defenders and who can't make teams pay consistently from out there. Pop is good, but I don't think he's a miracle worker.

[sickdsm]

Sounds like the wolves are pretty well given up on Ndudi Ebi.

I think he can be a darius miles type player easily under the right circumstances. Lanky, quick, ability to really D it up, offensive rebound, garbage points, drive, dunk, slasher.

In other words, A good defender that gets a surprising number of points w/out using the ball. You look at the statsheet at the end of the night and say, how the hell did he score that much? he never really even shot the ball?

I think that he just needs some PT to get a little comfortable.

[rascal]

It's out there, and it wouldn't totally surprise me if the Spurs pursued Sprewell, but it's not a move that I would make.



That's the problem. Sprewell is, IMO, a slasher/defender whose lost a step and a half at least. When he was at his best, even while he was with the Knicks, the thing that made Latrell dangerous was his ability to break his man down and get to the rack with some explosion. He was never a great shooter, per se. Unless he miraculously gains a step (maybe by ridding himself of that giant chip on his shoulder) Sprewell is a guy who can be confined to the perimeter by good defenders and who can't make teams pay consistently from out there. Pop is good, but I don't think he's a miracle worker.

Excellant post. I agree sprewell is no longer able to beat his man enough to the basket and his perimeter shooting has never been all that great so it will add nothing to what the spurs need. The spurs should have gotten Sprewell back in 99' and should have let him go last year, not be trying to get him now.

[Pistonfan1]

No we are not trading Prince :-)

[Horry For 3!]

You could also trade to get a good SF. But from that list i'd go with the Big Dog first and DerMarr Johnson second.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Spreewell turned down three years for 21 million.


Last year we had Big Shot Rob for $1.1M.


Spreewell is an idiot. Let some other team feed his family.

[baseline bum]

Gotta try to bring Robinson back. It's a long-shot, but his defense was very impressive. He showed a real commitment to playing Spurs basketball in his limited minutes, and without his play in game 1 of the Finals maybe we're talking about missed opportunities and coming so close like we were last year at this time. He has been way more than I ever expected, and there's no reason not to try to bring him back with Marshall now off the table.

[baseline bum]

I don't want Spree. He used to be the most devastating open-court player in the game, but he's too old now. He doesn't seem like the kind of person who could play limited minutes either.

[TheTruth]

Sounds like the wolves are pretty well given up on Ndudi Ebi.

Ithink he can be a darius miles type player easily under the right circumstances. Lanky, quick, ability to really D it up, offensive rebound, garbage points, drive, dunk, slasher.

In other words, A good defender that gets a surprising number of points w/out using the ball. You look at the statsheet at the end of the night and say, how the hell did he score that much? he never really even shot the ball?

I think that he just needs some PT to get a little comfortable.
Is that a positive thing?

[TheTruth]

whatever happened to Bostjan Nochbar?

[Mark in Austin]

Gotta agree with Baseline on both counts. Robinson is who you take your shot at - nobody else come close to what he can bring to the table, and Spree is def. not capable of defending the longer threes in the west. He's a two who played out of position in NY for 5 years.

No reason to have to chose between a vet and a youger player. Sign Robinson as the primary backup and resign LJIII or whomever is most impressive in SL. It's entirely possible that Bowen's true replacement could turn out to be Sanikidze (sp?) if he continues to develop. Get Robinson for 2-3 years using the suggestion MB had of a player option. Then after another season in Europe, bring in Sanikidze next year to start learning defense from Bowen and offense from Robinson.

[Manuismyhomeboy]

Didnt the Spurs try and draft Ndubi Ebi a couple of years ago cause they were very impressed with him, but Minny snatched him?

[Mark in Austin]

that story did go around... don't remember how 'real' it was though.

[Solid D]

whatever happened to Bostjan Nochbar?

He's an unrestricted FA. I started to list him earlier in this thread and then I thought about it and hit the backspace key and did something else. :hat

[midgetonadonkey]

The thing I like about Britton Johnson is that he has an outside game and is 6'10. So he is an young, athletic SF that can shoot the ball. Sounds like a good pickup. Of course Big Dog would be a good and more experienced backup...

He's had some good games during for the summer league team. He may be a good guy to put at the end of the bench and bring him in gradually. Why give up a lot when you have somebody you can groom.

[exstatic]

Bo Outlaw can play 3 or 4.

Bo can guard 3s, but damn, his offense makes Bowen look like LeBron.

There was a Bo thread a while back, and I didn't chime in, but I will here. I know he's a hustle guy and a team guy, but his game hasn't appreciably improved since he's been in the NBA. Shit, give me 11 years in the L, most of it at 20+ minutes per game, and even I could develop a servicable 15-18 foot jumper, and that's starting from zero.

[Kori Ellis]

He's an unrestricted FA. I started to list him earlier in this thread and then I thought about it and hit the backspace key and did something else. :hat

Nachbar and the Hornets agreed to terms on the first day of free agency.

[Solid D]

Nachbar and the Hornets agreed to terms on the first day of free agency.

Good catch. Why wasn't that blasted all over the sports page? :lol

[Solid D]

Bo can guard 3s, but damn, his offense makes Bowen look like LeBron.

There was a Bo thread a while back, and I didn't chime in, but I will here. I know he's a hustle guy and a team guy, but his game hasn't appreciably improved since he's been in the NBA. Shit, give me 11 years in the L, most of it at 20+ minutes per game, and even I could develop a servicable 15-18 foot jumper, and that's starting from zero.

I totally concur. He makes all the hustle plays, rebounds and keeps trips alive but that's about all now on offense. He was glued to the PHX bench against the Spurs.

[ace3g]

Johnsen for a Rookie Contract and give the rest of the MLE(someone help me out what type of contract that would be worth for 3-4 years) to Gerald Wallace and then give a vet contract to Jon Barry and we should be set with this lineup

Possible 2005-2006 Lineup

PG: Parker/Beno/Jon Barry
SG: Manu/Brent Barry/Brown
SF: Bowen/LJIII/Wallace/Johnsen
PF: Duncan/Horry
C: Nazr/Rasho/Oberto

that lineup would be set for years to come, and one of the most deep rosters that I have ever seen... and like I said earlier this lineup is "Very Possible"

[timvp]

Gerald Wallace is close to impossble. Even if the Spurs offer what is left of the MLE, the Bobcats will no doubt match.

[Dre_7]

Bo can guard 3s, but damn, his offense makes Bowen look like LeBron.

:lmao :lmao

[Kori Ellis]

Gerald Wallace is restricted so that might be tough, but the Spurs could definitely get someone of that caliber with the money remaining. They can give someone a 3year/$8-9M contract with what they have left from the MLE. Plus they have the LLE for someone else.

[Manuismyhomeboy]

Pipe dream

[JUUOT]

i thought they had more like 6-7 million 3 years type left. not 8-9.
wallace is impossible without a ST

[Kori Ellis]

i thought they had more like 6-7 million 3 years type left. not 8-9.

Well if the MLE is $5M, then the total for 3 years would be 3years/$16.2M (that number includes 8% raises). So if Oberto got 3years/$7.5M, then there is 3years/$8.7M left.

[ace3g]

manuismyhomeboy, that is not a pipe dream, and yes everyone I knew Wallace was a Restricted FA. but the rest of that lineup is possible.

[blp2112]

Maybe its just a gut feeling, but I think Stephen Graham is a diamond in the rough just waiting to be discovered. Though he didn't get a lot of publicity at OKState, there was some buzz surrounding him during the workout sessions with his is brother Joey, a first rounder. According to several articles during the pre-draft work-outs, Stephen more than held his own, even outplaying his brother at times. He sounds like a superior athelete, who even has 3-pt. range. I don't know if he is currently on someone's summer roster, but if there is a chance of bringing him in for a good look, I say go for it. At least he won't cost the Spurs anything.

[Solid D]

Stephen is on Phoenix's summer league team.

[JUUOT]

thx kori it is more than i thought but i always prefer to be pessimistic on money. (better than bad surprise)

this would be enough to keep Glenn

[FilSpursFan]

this would be enough to keep Glenn

How much would Big Dog's contract be? more or less? I think we can no longer afford him of what is left...

[sickdsm]

I mean the TYPE of player miles is. Believe it or not, Miles can straight up D it up when he's motivated. His strenghts are slashing and basically garbage type plays.

Exactly what i'd want in a SF.

[Manuismyhomeboy]

Ace3g, ur telling me its possible to sign 5 free agents with just the MLE and LLE, especially with Wallace being a coveted free agent for Charlotte? Sorry its a pipe dream.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I think its obvious we have to work some magic on Big Dog.
Theres noone out there thats better. And we can always put off our young SF one more year....Bowen is pretty resilient. I really like Big Dog. I don't think his game is predicated on speed and athleticism so much as savvy and a scoring mindset. He can pay off really well for us in an entire season. Make us the deepest spurs team of all time too....

[ace3g]

Ace3g, ur telling me its possible to sign 5 free agents with just the MLE and LLE, especially with Wallace being a coveted free agent for Charlotte? Sorry its a pipe dream.

manuismyhomeboy, after the spurs use the rest of their MLE on a SF(most likely) they can use as many of their Veteran Exceptions and rookie contracts as they want to

when did I ever say anything about signing 5 free agents; I was saying with what we had left from the MLE(which means after signing oberto) we can try to sign Wallace or another good SF. Then use a veteran exception contract on Jon Barry and a rookie contract for Johnsen

[milkyway21]

Big Dog from your list and

Kirilenko, i guess but i don't think we can afford him:D
if we can then, we could be Champions in the next 5 yrs.....

i just don't know who'll start-Bowen or AK.

[ace3g]

the spurs dont want to bring in someone of star powered as the likes or AK, they want a young talented kid who they think Bowen can mold into a defensive specialist

[Marcus Bryant]

I could see the Spurs bringing Glenn Robinson back for a short term, small money contract with a player option. A 2 year deal for the rest of the MLE makes a lot of sense for both sides. For the Spurs, I think Big Dog has 2 or 3 solid seasons (incl. playoff runs) left in him. For GRobinson, he is really struggling this summer, it seems, to draw interest. I think there remains a lot of questions about him personally. His Philly stint continues to haunt him. He hasn't played a full season in the past 2 years.

If the Spurs give him a 2 year deal with a player option after the 1st, that allows GRobinson to get some guaranteed money and it also allows the Spurs to get his Early Bird or full Bird rights. It would be the type of contract that doesn't stick the Spurs with a lot of years and a lot of guaranteed money. It's also the type of contract that should motivate Glenn Robinson to bring his game back to the level it used to be. If he had a solid 2005-06 season with the Spurs then he could opt out next summer and get paid, either by the Spurs who would hold his Early Bird rights or by another team.

Who knows? Maybe this discussion is academic and a NBA GM will get desperate and throw their full MLE at Big Dog. But with the way things have developed in free agency this summer thusfar, that seems less and less likely.

[ChumpDumper]

BTW, Chris Crawford is working out with the Sixers -- though that guy has had the worst luck with injuries.

[ChumpDumper]

• Word is the Timberwolves have offered free agent Eddie Griffith a three-year deal with salaries of $1.8 million, $1.9 million and $2 million.

• If 7-foot-1 European sharpshooter Nikoloz Tskitischvili can't get a contract with the Wolves, he's headed to the summer league in Salt Lake City in pursuit of a job.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/sports/12173416.htm

Maybe we can up the ante on Griff....

[Marcus Bryant]

Hmmm...Griffin? A risk. Sure, he has potential, but he's had potential for 3 years.

Tskitttsssshittiti would be a good risk for IR for a year.

[spurster]

If the Spurs give him a 2 year deal with a player option after the 1st, that allows GRobinson to get some guaranteed money and it also allows the Spurs to get his Early Bird or full Bird rights. It would be the type of contract that doesn't stick the Spurs with a lot of years and a lot of guaranteed money.
This is a very good short term solution. The Big Dog is a proven player and the rest of the options are just hopes.

[Mr. Body]

• Word is the Timberwolves have offered free agent Eddie Griffith a three-year deal with salaries of $1.8 million, $1.9 million and $2 million.

The T-Wolves aren't overpaying a player or otherwise doing something stupid. Color me impressed.

[ChumpDumper]

I think getting that rebounding and blocking from the 3 spot would be huge.

Remember, he's only 23 years old -- I don't think it would be insane to blow the rest of the MLE and offer a 4th year option if he seems clean to the FO.

[wildbill2u]

Re: Griffin. see http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21157&highlight=Griffin

he got a short stay in the graybar hotel for a parole violation: hanging out with bad folks in bad places. He may still have some issues with authority and/or drugs.

[sickdsm]

Re: Griffin. see http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21157&highlight=Griffin

he got a short stay in the graybar hotel for a parole violation: hanging out with bad folks in bad places. He may still have some issues with authority and/or drugs.


Translation: He was in the strip club parking lot when two guys got into a fight with each other. He was not involved.

Little bit different than punching your GF in the face and shooting at her, don'cha think?

[Kori Ellis]

Little bit different than punching your GF in the face and shooting at her, don'cha think?

But Griffin has already done that too, right?

[Marcus Bryant]

Griffin's accomplished a little bit more than that, IIRC.

[sickdsm]

My point is to say that he's regressed is ludicris. The law's the law but his breaking probation is very minor to me. To say that bc of that he has a problem with drugs and authority?

[wildbill2u]

Translation: He was in the strip club parking lot when two guys got into a fight with each other. He was not involved.

Little bit different than punching your GF in the face and shooting at her, don'cha think?

Sure, but one of the conditions of his parole was to stay out of drinking spots, no drinking at all (in addition to other drugs) and no associating with bad guys. These are standard conditions of parole.

I don't think the judge would have put him in jail for breaking parole if he was just walking by the location when a fight broke out, do you?

[picnroll]

At A Kings site it was posted that Matt Barnes said at a Bibby camp he would likely end up with the Kings or Spurs. Said he preferred the Kings (he's a local kid form Sacramento I believe). Spurs certainly wanted him last year.

[wildbill2u]

I really hadn't thought GRob was a viable signee--but just read his statements in another thread which are positive about the three most important questions:
1. He loves the Spurs and the organization and had fun again playing here.
2. He's willing to play a role behind Bowen. I think he realizes he'll get some quality minutes if he signs here.
3. He apparently is willing to forego a big contract. Maybe there haven't been any legitimate takers so he's only being realistic, but he has to know the Spurs limited money situation.
4. He will buy into the 'defense first' system. That's hard to do for an offensive-minded player.

5. I always discount when a player says, "I'm not a cancer or a head case" but there weren't any rumblings from the team or management so maybe we can take him at his word.

[timvp]

At A Kings site it was posted that Matt Barnes said at a Bibby camp he would likely end up with the Kings or Spurs. Said he preferred the Kings (he's a local kid form Sacramento I believe). Spurs certainly wanted him last year.

Interesting. He was the player the Spurs wanted before they got Tha Third.

If the Spurs are still interested, they must see some real potential in him.

[ace3g]

I remember watching a few SAC games when Maurice Evans was playing, I like that kid he has alot of talent

[ace3g]

I think I remember reading an article a couple of days ago somewhere(it was an old article) from a Euro Site about some of the best prospects and Maurice Evans was one of them, I guess he played overseas

[sickdsm]

Sure, but one of the conditions of his parole was to stay out of drinking spots, no drinking at all (in addition to other drugs) and no associating with bad guys. These are standard conditions of parole.

I don't think the judge would have put him in jail for breaking parole if he was just walking by the location when a fight broke out, do you?

No, that's why the judge didn't decide. He had to option of a "no contest" type thing where he could take the 15 days in jail or have a hearing to decide if he did violate his probation. Whats he supposed to do? Fight it? He's a witness, the cops were right there talking to him, thats a violation in itself. I'm sure one all of the guys there told the cops that he was right beside them, watching the dancers.


You DO realize that many if not all states, after a DUI conviction state you can't be in ANY alcohol serving establishment? You could violate by having a steak if they wanted to be anal about it.


If you thought of me as getting cleaned up before i got cuffed with the Heinz 57 sauce in my hand, why on earth would you even think i'd have a problem with authority/drugs after?

It just seems like a comment an old out of touch person would say. Someone has there pants baggy or long hair.

"they have to be on drugs"

[BigDiggyD]

Ok so this is a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I, like many posters, feel that finding the potential future at SF is the Spurs most pressing need. Bowen is the most long in the tooth starter we have and there are no other pressing needs in the starting 5 or bench and our #1 option for the future behind Bowen lacks his size and has question marks about his health (assuming he is signed at all). I for one saw a decline in Bowens overall performance on defense this year, which may be attributed to losing a fraction of a step due to age, or could be attributed to rules changes/enforcements.

I don't feel that you have to try to find the next Bruce Bowen, extra contribution in other facets of the game can make up for a lack of Bowens defensive prowess. I do want someone who displays willingness and effort on defense however.

I have decided on two things. 1) I am going to try and take as much of my own personal bias out of finding candidates to replace Bowen and let the statistical performance do the talking 2) I am going to break down SF targets into three areas... Low Hanging Fruit, Trespass Fruit, and Exchange Fruit. The only difference between these fruit is their current status. Low Hanging are Unrestricted and can be signed with no fuss, Trespass are Restricted and the previous team can match, and Exchange are under contract with another team and will require a trade.

The similar criteria I have for all of these are this.



Must have played most or second most of his games at SF
Must be 6'5" or taller
Must have been born on or after 1976 (28-29 years old max otherwise give me Glenn Robinson back and see me in another 1-2 years)
Must have played at least 250 minutes last year
Since this is the LHF group these must all be listed as Unrestricted Free Agents (using nba.com and any updates I can find on status)

This is the group I am left with in alphabetical order

Rodney Buford
Eddie Griffin
Ryan Humphrey
Casey Jacobsen
DerMarr Johnson
Bostjan Nachbar
Scott Padgett
Laron Profit
Kareem Rush
Rodney White

Now my criteria for ranking them was in the following categories.
PER rating (John Hollinger)
Offensive and Defensive +/- (82games)
Previous years salary
Efficiency/Game (NBA)
Effeciency/48 Minutes (Kevin Pelton)
Modified Diamond Rating (Kevin Broom, Kevin Pelton, Me)

So basically we rate them at their overall statistical performance summed up in one number (PER), their apparent contribution to the teams performance, which helps measure some of the items not currently recorded statistically (screens, picks, charges, contested shots) (82games Off and Def +/-), signability based on previous salary history, all the positives they bring minus the negatives (Efficiency), and finally what the chances are that they are due for a breakout year, which basically takes into consideration if they are really productive during the time they are on the floor and just don’t see enough minutes due to whatever factors.

There are some deficiencies in this right off the top of my head.

1) Lack of adequate available statistics to better measure defensive ability
2) Previous salary wont have much to do with future salary (but I wanted to eliminate those who are already out of our price range)
3) Lack of proper weights to all of these categories (working on refining this)
4) Doesn't take things such as personality and work ethic into consideration

Based on these categories here is the previous list ranked


Eddie Griffin
DerMarr Johnson
Scott Padgett
Laron Profit
Rodney White
Casey Jacobsen
Bostjan Nachbar
Kareem Rush
Ryan Humphrey
Rodney Buford
Here is the same list minus rankings for previous salary.


Eddie Griffin/Scott Padgett
DerMarr Johnson
Rodney White
Laron Profit
Bostjan Nachbar
Casey Jacobsen
Ryan Humphrey/Kareem Rush
Rodney Buford
Doing the eyeball test on these some things jump out. Padgett and White seem too thick to be the type of player we are looking for (Griffin and Humphrey falling into that category also to a smaller degree) and should be considered more of a PF/SF tweener. Perhaps I need to do some sort of Ht/Wt ratio but that may negatively impact those who are athletic for their size.

I will be continuing to tweak these as I go.

I have never felt that stats are a replacement for good old fashioned scouting but I think they are another piece of the puzzle and can sometimes give you people to consider that perhaps you haven’t before.

All feedback is certainly welcome.

I will do the RFA's and Trades soon.

[timvp]

Very good post, BigDiggyD. It's refreshing to see such a quality post out of the newer generation.

A couple points:

1) I didn't see a decline in Bowen's play. I thought that it was his best season defensively. He had more confidence and was a much better help team defender. That said, he probably doesn't have much more than two or three great years left.

2) Out of your list of players, I believe that Eddie Griffin and Bostjan Nachbar have agreed to terms with their former teams.

3) A name I'd add to that list is Theron Smith.

:smokin

[mookie2001]

yeah id see we wait for bowen to actually get worse before we jump to find the next bruce
LJIII
sign him up

[BigDiggyD]

Very good post, BigDiggyD. It's refreshing to see such a quality post out of the newer generation.

A couple points:

1) I didn't see a decline in Bowen's play. I thought that it was his best season defensively. He had more confidence and was a much better help team defender. That said, he probably doesn't have much more than two or three great years left.

2) Out of your list of players, I believe that Eddie Griffin and Bostjan Nachbar have agreed to terms with their former teams.

3) A name I'd add to that list is Theron Smith.

:smokin Thanks timvp,

My take on Bowen is purely subjective. I have been a Spurs season ticket holder since 2000 and make it to about 40-42 games a year (add preseason, dont count playoffs). From watching him this year compared to at least the previous two years I felt I saw a decline. Still among the elite, but not as effective as before. Hard to back that up with stats since there simply arent any readily available that track what Bowen does on a court. The evidence on 82games.com does back me up a little bit as it shows that there was significantly less difference in defense per 100 possesions with Bowen on and off the court than there was in previous years. But their system is not without its faults and the overall teams defense has risen to such a level that perhaps Bowens contribution is not as noticeable as in years past statistically. It all could come down to my expectation level at this point perhaps having risen to unattainable heights.

If you can find me sites that show those two signed that would be cool because I don't see it where I have been looking.

I have Theron Listed as a RFA therefore he didn't make this list but will be in the next one.

Another name some might have noticed not there is LJIII. That is due to the limited minutes he played this year. I have toyed with the idea of using previous seasons for those that didnt qualify to make the list this year, or perhaps using career instead.

[Kori Ellis]

If you can find me sites that show those two signed that would be cool because I don't see it where I have been looking.

Eddie Griffin has not agreed to terms yet, but he is expected to.

Bostjan Nachbar agreed on the first day of free agency.


The only small forward on the roster is backup Bostjan Nachbar, who agreed to a contract with the Hornets 12 days ago.

http://www.nola.com/sports/t-p/index.ssf?/base/sports-19/1121230677225730.xml

[BigDiggyD]

OK I have elected to revise the LHF SF's to use their career instead to allow people like LJIII to be eligible. I have also removed previous contract from the equation. Additionally I am not satisfied with 1976 being the cutoff date for age so I bumped it to '77. Also I took out Nachbar as it was shown to me he has comitted.

Here is the result


Eddie Griffin
Rodney White
DerMarr Johnson
Linton Johnson III
Casey Jacobsen
Laron Profit
Kareem Rush
Rodney Buford
Damone Brown
Ryan Humphrey
Tamar Slay
If your were to break them into groupings Griffin is on a level by himself, White and D Johnson together, then LJIII, Jacobsen and Profit, 7-8, 9-10, and Slay all by himself at the bottom.

In terms of showing signs they could have a breakout year if they just got on the court more it goes


Griffin (kind of skewed by the fact he already gets a good # of minutes, Ginobli caused this anomaly in years past as well)
White
LJIII
Profit
D Johnson
Still working on collecting all the stats for the RFA's

[Chris]

LJIII would be cheap and has tons of potential. Defense, length, and streaky offense. Might as well pick up Big Dog as well if its going to be cheap.

[BigDiggyD]

LJIII would be cheap and has tons of potential. Defense, length, and streaky offense. Might as well pick up Big Dog as well if its going to be cheap.
You are right about that streaky business. I would watch him warm up well before game time and even going through shooting drills he would drain 5 or 6 in a row from different spots and then go on an extended dry spell where he shot like me http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smidrunk.gif . With the other shooters I watch they may go on a hot streak and nail some good runs (Barry and Horry were sometimes in the 10-15 + range from the three) then be on and off with a few here and a few there but LJIII without fail would get his hits and misses in big bunches.

[BigDiggyD]

OK.. I have run the numbers on the RFA SFs that meet the criteria I mentioned earlier in this thread. I have take out anyone who's contract last year was too rich to give SA a realistic chance at signing them. I am left with (alphabetical)


Matt Barnes
Keith Bogans
Devin Brown
Matt Carroll
Josh Davis
Maurice Evans
Richie Frahm
James Jones
Jason Kapono
Theron Smith
Gerald Wallace
Damien Wilkins
Based on an unweighted comparison of all factors the ranking is as follows.


Gerald Wallace (price?)
Matt Carroll (interesting)
Josh Davis (more of PF?)
Richie Frahm
Devin Brown
Maurice Evans/Jason Kapono
Matt Barnes
Damien Wilkins
Keith Bogans/James Jones
Theron Smith
In pure terms of a possible breakout year


Josh Davis
Richie Frahm
Gerald Wallace
Devin Brown
Matt Carroll
Maurice Evans
Damien Wilkins
Matt Barnes
Jason Kapono
James Jones
Theron Smith
Keith Bogans
Next task is trade targets.. and also combining both UFA and RFA into a single group

[Kori Ellis]

Nice breakdown. Just so you know, Matt Barnes and Josh Davis are unrestricted.

[Kori Ellis]

So is Theron Smith.

[BigDiggyD]

Thanks Kori.. do you have a better site than NBA.com to get that information? I am going off of their Free Agency page and it has all three of those listed as RFAs

[ace3g]

I was looking up info on theron smith, he looks like he has alot of potential

[Kori Ellis]

Thanks Kori.. do you have a better site than NBA.com to get that information? I am going off of their Free Agency page and it has all three of those listed as RFAs

They were all RFA's but they weren't given qualifying offers, etc. on July 1 so they became unrestricted.

I just use google to check.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/12028469.htm


Reserve forwards Matt Barnes and Josh Davis are unrestricted free agents because the Sixers did not tender offers to them.

http://www.shelbystar.com/portal/ASP/article.asp?ID=17139


As for the team’s restricted free agents, Charlotte exercised the option on the second year of Bernard Robinson’s contract last Wednesday, two days after they made qualifying offers to Keith Bogans, Matt Carroll, Jason Kapono and Gerald Wallace.

Those four players can seek offers from other teams, but the Bobcats have the right to match whatever offer they might receive in free agency.

The team did not make a qualifying offer to Theron Smith and chose not to exercise its option on the contract of Tamar Slay.

[AI-square]

Yep, both Matt Barnes and Josh Davis are unrestricted free agents. After signing Dalembert, Korver and Green, I think it would be best for Philly if they keep either one of Barnes or Davis.

On a side note, I think Philly has the lowest average height in their roster.

[JUUOT]

big diggyD, i am impressed. thanks a lot for the input. really valuable. you enter right there on my informative poster list

thx

[ace3g]

did Theron smith play in any of the summer leagues

[ace3g]

November 8, 2004

Theron Smith Undergoes Successful Knee Surgery

Bobcats forward Theron Smith had successful surgery on his right knee today, it was announced by Bobcats General Manager and Head Coach Bernie Bickerstaff.

Dr. Glenn Perry performed the arthroscopic procedure at Presbyterian Orthopedic Hospital to repair damaged cartilage in his right knee.

Smith has been on the injured list for both of the team’s regular season games after he played in three preseason games and averaged 7.3 points and 5.0 rebounds in 15.0 minutes.

The 6-8, 230-pound forward was chosen by Charlotte in the Expansion Selection on June 22, after he played his rookie season in Memphis last year.

Link (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nba.com/media/bobcats/Smith_Theron_action_041108.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.nba.com/bobcats/news/release_smith_surgery_041108.html&h=250&w=175&sz=14&tbnid=P0-hHJNkcNUJ:&tbnh=106&tbnw=74&hl=en&start=2&prev=/images%3Fq%3DTheron%2Bsmith%2B%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3 Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN)

[timvp]

I was looking up info on theron smith, he looks like he has alot of potential

Theron Smith has been a timvp favorite for a couple seasons now. He's an awesome on the ball defender for his size. I've seen him pressure a point guard full court, and at 6-foot-8, 225 pounds that is rather impressive. In the Spurs' system, I think he would become a monster defensively.

Offensively he's a major work in progress, but defensively he has the tools to become a stud.

I really hope the Spurs give him a try. However, chances are he's too much of an uknown at this point of his career.

:depressed

[BigDiggyD]

They were all RFA's but they weren't given qualifying offers, etc. on July 1 so they became unrestricted.

I just use google to check.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/12028469.htm



http://www.shelbystar.com/portal/ASP/article.asp?ID=17139
Gotcha.. thanks Kori... I was hoping there was a single site that does a good job of keeping track of the status of these players but I guess I need to check each one individually.

[BigDiggyD]

big diggyD, i am impressed. thanks a lot for the input. really valuable. you enter right there on my informative poster list

thx
Appreciate the compliment JUUOT. I have actually done offseason analysis for Pro Football (free agency and draft) for 6 years and have gotten pretty good at it, I am just now cutting my teeth on basketball analysis. I have been watching the Spurs since '78 but didn't start getting inside the numbers more until the last few years.

[T Park]

BUmp.

Looks like whats left. Demaar Johnson is the best available.

When we first started tossing names around, he was one that I liked, and still do.


Bring in Demarr Pop.

[Money316]

Big Dog doesn't solve the problem going forward, but if you're trying to defend the title, he's a nice piece to have around. We got some tantalizing glimpses of him last spring as he tried to regain his conditioning and then dealt with the death of his mother and the prolonged absence that followed; it made me wonder what he might bring if he had a full camp to get in shape and learn what the hell was going on. You can't often find guys who have enough innate talent to put up 23 point games on 9-11 shooting in the NBA on just sheer ability.

A healthy and conditioned Big Dog could have enough to make a run at the 6th Man award. A healthy and conditioned Big Dog, matched with a confident Brent Barry, a growing Beno Udrih, Mr. Horry, and one of Nazr/Rasho/Oberto could make for a very, very salty second group.

Amen brah! Salty and saucie!

:fro :fro :fro

[SpurYank]

Without a doubt, it's Big Dog. Whoever said he would be better than he showed if he came in early for training camp is correct. Glenn Robinson, by his own admission, never played with a team that had high expectations for him as the Spurs would. I think he would meet the expectations. He hs matured. Has played better than just "good" defense. We need to sign him up for 2 years.

[Money316]

Wouldn't you just love to see Spree back on the same team with P.J.?

Only if I was a Sun or Piston's fan.

:fro :fro :fro

[Money316]

Spreewell turned down three years for 21 million.


Last year we had Big Shot Rob for $1.1M.


Spreewell is an idiot. Let some other team feed his family.

Classic! :rollin