Helen Thomas on Liberals

[101A]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/helen-thomas-from-the-grave-lapdog-press-needs-to-be-more-liberal/article/2533472


..."What is a liberal? A liberal cares for the poor, and the sick, and the hungry. A liberal cares about the government doing for the people what they cannot do for themselves, is what Lincoln said. A liberal seeks the truth and doesn't put the spin on anything and asks to look at the facts. I think liberal correspondents are honest. I don't mean the others are dishonest, but what I mean is--I don't think that liberals, liberals have an axe to grind except they really do want a better world..."


Had a little bit of an epiphany moment (not really an epiphany, have realized this for a while, but this quote from the dead icon does a good job of illustration).

If that is truly a window into the liberals mind, it makes their actions and beliefs understandable.

There is a glaring non sequitur in this woman's logic:

1. "A Liberal cares for the poor, and the sick and the hungry...they really do want a better world."
2. "A liberal cares about the government doing for the people what they cannot do for themselves."

There are two elephants in the room she has constructed here: First, liberals do not have a monopoly on caring. Second just because one WANTS something to be doesn't make it so. That something is the governments actual ability to improve the lives of the poor, the sick and the hungry - without creating more, or entrenching, the problems that exist.

If liberals were as honest as Helen Thomas proclaims them to be, they would be honest, first, with themselves, about the damage the government programs they hold so dear are bringing upon the classes of people they champion.

[ElNono]

There is a glaring non sequitur in this woman's logic:

1. "A Liberal cares for the poor, and the sick and the hungry...they really do want a better world."
2. "A liberal cares about the government doing for the people what they cannot do for themselves."

There are two elephants in the room she has constructed here: First, liberals do not have a monopoly on caring. Second just because one WANTS something to be doesn't make it so. That something is the governments actual ability to improve the lives of the poor, the sick and the hungry - without creating more, or entrenching, the problems that exist.

If liberals were as honest as Helen Thomas proclaims them to be, they would be honest, first, with themselves, about the damage the government programs they hold so dear are bringing upon the classes of people they champion.

Meh, the way I read it is spelling out ideals... the government being a partisan, corrupt bunch betrays liberal ideals as much as individuals being a greedy bunch betray conservative ideals pretty much equally.

In an ideal world, with a lean and efficient government, there's nothing wrong with what she says, IMO. Much like in an ideal world, without greed (and things like price fixing, etc), free markets and honest competition would require no government intervention. But we're all aware that we don't live in an ideal world. That doesn't mean the ideals are wrong, they simply need to be adjusted to that reality.

Just my 2c.

[boutons_deux]

"liberals do not have a monopoly on caring."

strawman, who said they did?

"just because one WANTS something to be doesn't make it so"

big fucking duh.

the power and ease of saying of NO overpowers the power of YES, as the current extremeit gang of obstructing, sociopathic Repugs demonstrates daily.

NO = do nothing, easy

YES = do something, MUCH harder

[SA210]

It's been hard to find a real liberal since 2008, especially in this forum.

[rjv]

if most people on both sides were honest (or even read just a bit) they'd realize our government is not acting on behalf of the poor; our country is being privatized on a massive scale.

[101A]

if most people on both sides were honest (or even read just a bit) they'd realize our government is not acting on behalf of the poor; our country is being privatized on a massive scale.

I'd suggest it is being privatized with specific winners in mind; Government is used to pick the winners and losers - and since the government has virtually unlimited power, it has an unlimited ability to do so.

[rjv]

I'd suggest it is being privatized with specific winners in mind; Government is used to pick the winners and losers - and since the government has virtually unlimited power, it has an unlimited ability to do so.

it's not a coincidence that many poiliticians have connections to many of the companies associated with specific roles that once belonged to the government. we know the GOP is guilty of this but the dems are equally culpable. it's not a coincidence the obama administration shut down the occupy movement because the dems had the most to lose from the movement (from a PR stance).

[boutons_deux]

if most people on both sides were honest (or even read just a bit) they'd realize our government is not acting on behalf of the poor; our country is being privatized on a massive scale.

Privatization into the hands of the capitalists and UCA is of course a VRWC strategy, (not a Dem strategy), sucking down taxpayer dollars and weakening the govt (eg, busting govt, teacher unions and non-unionized charter indoctrination sham schools).

[ElNono]

Winners have a large say on how that government that picks winners and losers is put together...

[rjv]

Privatization into the hands of the capitalists and UCA is of course a VRWC strategy, (not a Dem strategy), sucking down taxpayer dollars and weakening the govt (eg, busting govt, teacher unions and non-unionized charter indoctrination sham schools).

it's the primary goal of neoliberalism, an ideology that has been championed by both parties since it took off under reagan.

[boutons_deux]

It's ALWAYS CONSERVE-my-wealthy-status-quo-Haves vs We-want-PROGRESS-Have-nots.

After a few decades of post-FDR social (ie, Have-Not) progress, the VRWC/1% reared its ugly head, starting with Lewis Powell's "take the country back" memo reacting to the 30s and 60s, to once again take over and rig the country like in the 19th century up to the '30s.

[101A]

Winners have a large say on how that government that picks winners and losers is put together...

Aristocratic chicken and egg, eh?

[ElNono]

Aristocratic chicken and egg, eh?

pretty much :lol

[spurraider21]

"liberals do not have a monopoly on caring."

strawman, who said they did?

true. but in that case, liberals saying "we care" is the equivalent of saying "we have circulatory systems"

by bringing up that "they care" they are implying that others do not

[boutons_deux]

true. but in that case, liberals saying "we care" is the equivalent of saying "we have circulatory systems"

by bringing up that "they care" they are implying that others do not

Dems try to help students with their debt, Repug try to fuck them harder

Dems try to poor people into health insurance so they get timely, early care, Repug want ACA and poor people dead

Dems try to protect consumers with CFPB, Repugs defund it, refuse to approve a director, absolutely make sure E Warren isn't running it.

etc, etc, etc. Show ANY EVIDENCE that Repugs GAF about the 99%, we know they "care" deeply about the 1%.

[spurraider21]

Dems try to help students with their debt, Repug try to fuck them harder

Dems try to poor people into health insurance so they get timely, early care, Repug want ACA and poor people dead

Dems try to protect consumers with CFPB, Repugs defund it, refuse to approve a director, absolutely make sure E Warren isn't running it.

etc, etc, etc. Show ANY EVIDENCE that Repugs GAF about the 99%, we know they "care" deeply about the 1%.

so now you ARE claiming they have a monopoly on caring, when a few comments ago you called strawman

[spurraider21]

Dems try to help students with their debt, Repug try to fuck them harder

Dems try to poor people into health insurance so they get timely, early care, Repug want ACA and poor people dead

Dems try to protect consumers with CFPB, Repugs defund it, refuse to approve a director, absolutely make sure E Warren isn't running it.

etc, etc, etc. Show ANY EVIDENCE that Repugs GAF about the 99%, we know they "care" deeply about the 1%.

so now you ARE claiming they have a monopoly on caring, when a few comments ago you called strawman.

also, why you bringing up democrats/republicans when this is about liberals

[TeyshaBlue]

Because logic has no chair at bouton's table.

[SnakeBoy]

I've always thought that liberals live in the world they wish existed and conservatives live in the world that is.

[boutons_deux]

so now you ARE claiming they have a monopoly on caring

straw man I didn't say that.

Dems ACTIONS vs Repugs are what I listed.

"why you bringing up democrats/republicans when this is about liberals"

list me some LIBRUL Repugs :lol

Liberals, progressives, are nearly 100% Dem or independent.

[Wild Cobra]

If liberals actually cared, they would do it with their money. Not everyone elses.

[boutons_deux]

If liberals actually cared, they would do it with their money. Not everyone elses.

Starting with St Ronnie, Repugs/VWRC switched USA from tax-and-spend (cut taxes on capital gains from 35% to 15%, the biggest driver of inequality) to borrow-and-spend (borrow from OTHER PEOPLE), with St Ronnie and dubya's regime vastly increasing the national debt, 2x and 3x.

[Wild Cobra]

Starting with St Ronnie, Repugs/VWRC switched USA from tax-and-spend (cut taxes on capital gains from 35% to 15%, the biggest driver of inequality) to borrow-and-spend (borrow from OTHER PEOPLE), with St Ronnie and dubya's regime vastly increasing the national debt, 2x and 3x.

Didn't the both have democrat congresses?

[CosmicCowboy]

..."What is a liberal? A liberal cares for the poor, and the sick, and the hungry. A liberal cares about the government doing for the people what they cannot do for themselves, is what Lincoln said. A liberal seeks the truth and doesn't put the spin on anything and asks to look at the facts. I think liberal correspondents are honest. I don't mean the others are dishonest, but what I mean is--I don't think that liberals, liberals have an axe to grind except they really do want a better world..."

With the exception of the Jews, right, Helen?

[SA210]

It's been hard to find a real liberal since 2008, especially in this forum.

[boutons_deux]

Didn't the both have democrat congresses?

he didn't have the House, but he had the Senate for 6 of 8 years

[leemajors]

I've always thought that liberals live in the world they wish existed and conservatives live in the world that is.

Every bit as silly as boutons

[boutons_deux]

Every bit as silly as boutons

You Lie

The Great Boutons is deadly serious, as the bitches like TB :lol can attest

[TeyshaBlue]

lol..I have an ankle biter!

[SnakeBoy]

Every bit as silly as boutons

Just some quotes of progressives describing themselves...


Progressives tend to believe that since all cultures are equally virtuous, it is better to seek cultural diversity than to join a common culture

Not in the real world.



What is a progressive worldview? It's simple: You have empathy for others, and you act responsibly on that empathy, being both responsible for yourself and socially responsible as well. Progressives say, "We're all in this together," while conservatives say," You're on your own."

Not in the real world.

[Th'Pusher]

Just some quotes of progressives describing themselves...



Not in the real world.




Not in the real world.

Look up conservative evangelicals.

Not the real world.

[leemajors]

Just some quotes of progressives describing themselves...



Not in the real world.




Not in the real world.

I thought you were talking about liberals?

[leemajors]

Look up conservative evangelicals.

Not the real world.

There's always Nugent too:


Ted Nugent, the perpetually provocative hard rock guitarist, said earlier this week that black Americans should be profiled in the same manner that different breeds of dogs are considered dangerous.

Nugent made the comments on entertainer Nick Cannon's podcast. The two riffed on race for several minutes until Nugent compared recent cases of strife in race relations to "storm clouds" and dogs.

"If a Dalmatian has been biting the children in the neighborhood, I think we're going to look for a black-and-white dog," he said.

"I think that typically when you see the -- I don't even remember the term they use -- but the gangs of blacks lately that have been just been going down the downtown streets and breaking windows on cars," Nugent continued. "Over and over again, I watch the news, and here's a rape and here's a burglary and here's a murder in Chicago. Twenty-nine shot, 29 blacks shot by 29 blacks. At some point, you've gotta be afraid of black-and-white dogs if the Dalmatian is doing the biting."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/26/ted-nugent-black-americans_n_3659911.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

[exstatic]

I've always thought that liberals live in the world they wish existed and conservatives live in the world that is.

Conservatives live in the past and Liberals are trying to birth the future.

[Parker2112]

Please. Conservatives AND liberals share responsibility for endless war, financial sector's unpunished corruption, wrecked voter confidence, record debt and unemployment, out of control untouchable intelligence sector wrecking shop abroad and at home, etc etc

We have a wrecked system that was BUILT on the ignorant arrogance of brainwashed partisan hacks who invest in a corrupt system and bar any possibility of TRUE progress.

The two party system wrecked this country, to benefit a handful of slave owning white men.

[Wild Cobra]

Please. Conservatives AND liberals share responsibility for endless war,

Wow...

Mark this day!

I at least agree with you here!

[pgardn]

Meh, the way I read it is spelling out ideals... the government being a partisan, corrupt bunch betrays liberal ideals as much as individuals being a greedy bunch betray conservative ideals pretty much equally.

In an ideal world, with a lean and efficient government, there's nothing wrong with what she says, IMO. Much like in an ideal world, without greed (and things like price fixing, etc), free markets and honest competition would require no government intervention. But we're all aware that we don't live in an ideal world. That doesn't mean the ideals are wrong, they simply need to be adjusted to that reality.

Just my 2c.

Thread should end here ^

[SnakeBoy]

Look up conservative evangelicals.

Not the real world.


I thought you were talking about liberals?

Admittedly it is a very broad brush but that's unavoidable in a 2 party system.




Conservatives live in the past and Liberals are trying to birth the future.

That's just another way of saying what I said. At their extremes both ideologies are equally destructive.

[Clipper Nation]

I've always thought that liberals live in the world they wish existed and conservatives live in the world that is.

You're pretty much spot-on with liberals, but conservatives live in a paranoid fantasy world where everyone's out to get them, tbh....

[boutons_deux]

Admittedly it is a very broad brush but that's unavoidable in a 2 party system.

That's just another way of saying what I said. At their extremes both ideologies are equally destructive.

absolute bullshit FALSE EQUIVALENCE. there's simply nothing in the center or left that remotely compares to the right-wing sociopathic, nihilistic extremism that has dominated the Repugs since th 1980s. Even St Ronnie would be ridiculed as socialist by today's Repugs.

[boutons_deux]

Republicans Sabotaging, Not Governinghttp://readersupportednews.org/images/stories/alphabet/rsn-I.jpgmagine a political party that keeps government from helping people, because that might lead people to support government. Imagine a political party that hurts parts of the country because those parts tend to not vote the way they want. Imagine a political party that would hurt the public, the economy and the country so they could say in the next election, "Hey look at how the country is hurting, vote for us instead." That could never happen here, could it?

This Is Who They Are Now

At RedState (http://www.redstate.com/) today the featured post is titled, Defund Or Be Challenged (http://www.redstate.com/2013/07/25/defund-or-be-challenged/). It calls on Republicans to demand that Obamacare be defunded - killed - or they will shut down the governemnt. It says pass a budget that defunds Obamacare and if the Senate won't take it up or the President vetoes it, shut down the government rather than pass a reasonable budget.

If you say, "So what?" and ask, "Who is RedState" then you are making the same mistake that many in the Democratic establishment have been making for decades. Asking "Who is Rush Limbaugh / Glenn Beck / Sean Hannity / Sarah Palin / Ann Coulter / etc." or saying that what they say doesn't matter is a mistake. This is who they are now. This is who the Republican Party is now. It is RedState, Limbaugh, Coulter, Drudge Report, etc. It is not Bob Dole or John McCain or even Ronald Reagan. It is not Ronald Reagan playing poker with Tip O'Neill.

Ronald Reagan would be primaried out as a "RINO" in today's Republican Party.

If you don't get it yet, let this sink in: Mitch McConnell is being primaried for being "a big government guy" and too "progressive" and working with Democrats. Mitch McConnell!

This is who the Republicans are now. RedState, Limbaugh, Coulter ... this is who they are now.

Obamacare Helps People - So They Want It Killed

Obamacare, for all its policy and political flaws, makes our health care system far better than the corrupt and dysfunctional system we have now. (I think Medicare-For-All is the right approach and would have high public support.) People with "preexisting conditions" will finally be able to get insurance. Subsidies will help people afford private insurance. The expansion of Medicaid will help millions receive health care.
The Republicans want it killed, period, and are willing to sabotage everything to get that. They want this because it will help people and therefore will be popular. They offer no alternative plan and do not care about all of these people who will be helped. In fact, they complain that so many new people will have access to health care that it could cause a shortage of doctors!

etc, etc

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/18613-focus-republicans-sabotaging-not-governing

[SnakeBoy]

absolute bullshit FALSE EQUIVALENCE. there's simply nothing in the center or left that remotely compares to the right-wing sociopathic, nihilistic extremism that has dominated the Repugs since th 1980s. Even St Ronnie would be ridiculed as socialist by today's Repugs.

lol