Was Manus' new contract a good, or a bad, move by Spurs FO? And why?

[xmas1997]

Who knows? Maybe we'll get lucky and get a LOGICAL debate about this, rather than more whining.:hat

[Leetonidas]

Be more specific...because giving Manu a new contract was good. Giving Manu a 2 year deal worth 14.5 million was bad.

[ducks]

dam beat this to death
his play will determine it this year and next

[Captivus]

Be more specific...because giving Manu a new contract was good. Giving Manu a 2 year deal worth 14.5 million was bad.

[Leetonidas]

Also, ducks is right. We'll see what Ginobili has left this season. If he plays like most of last year then... :pctoss

[superbigtime]

Bad move. Why? It's obvious, he's done.

[CitizenDwayne]

Good or bad? That's immaterial. It was necessary.

What's the alternative? Get rid of Manu?

[spurraider21]

Be more specific...because giving Manu a new contract was good. Giving Manu a 2 year deal worth 14.5 million was bad.

i think thats the point. what's your net reaction

[ChumpDumper]

Would have been nice to negotiate more than not at all.

[kobyz]

It kill Spurs chances to compete for a title next year...

[Vash StampedE]

Good and bad.

[bklynspursfan]

He's taken less before for us, so it all evened itself out in the end. Plus the fact that he was healthy all playoffs for us (though struggled at times) was big. Had he gotten injured again I highly doubt he gets the contract he did.

[Sean Cagney]

dam beat this to death
his play will determine it this year and next

Yes, we go through this every month in here it's the new period!

What you said is 100% on. Lets wait and see.

[Bruno]

Re-signing Manu was the right move, he is still a good player that helps Spurs.
$14.5M/2 years is too much money, he is overpaid.

Now, I don't really have an issue with Manu being overpaid as long as it doesn't hurt Spurs in other potential moves they can do. It's impossible for sure to say if Manu taking $1M or $2M less per year would have helped Spurs to improve more their team this summer but I'm strongly siding towards it has hurt Spurs.

Hopefully, Spurs could do one last move that could salvage a, as Manu would say, "so-so" offseason and make the Ginobili overpaying meaningless but it's a way remote hope.

[ElNono]

I said before the deal came together that I thought the Spurs could have him for $4m-$5m. Under that premise, you could call it a bad deal. Obviously, how he plays under this new deal will eventually be the actual measure of that.

[TXstbobcat]

I didn't want to see Manu retire from the nba playing for another team. If it took 14.5 over 2 years to keep him a spur then I am okay with the contract.

[dallasmaverickslose]

It's a good deal because Manu is a Spur for life.

[slick'81]

Not 5 not 6 not 7.......

[spurs10]

His value to the team is hard to put a price on because of his popularity. Putting butts in seats is a real bargaining piece no matter how you cut it. Manu is also a major piece on the team as well. In the top five, four, three? He's earned his keep to be sure. Not as clutch as Manu of old, but neither was anyone else.

[td4mvp2k]

Stfu tro

[tenbeersbold]

Manu is DONE,he looked like he was moving underwater vs Miami

His athleticism is gone,I felt bad for him getting blown by on practically every first step and then watching him wildly try to strip the ball from the dude that was leaving him in the dust.

He'll fill the seats and keep the SA locals happy though and that is worth a lot to PATFO

The second unit next year w/o Neal is gonna go through some ugly shooting droughts against good teams.

Plus Pop needs to yank Manu when he's clearly not "got" it instead of hoping he'll come around and give some of the younger guys a shot @ more minutes.

[TheGreatYacht]

Was he worthy of keeping? I could care less. TBH, I would of much rather used that $$$ on someone younger that is willing to come off the bench just like Manu and can hit a big shot when the team most needs it and his name is Jarrett Jack. Jarrett Jack will make roughly about the same amount of $$$ as Manu is with the Cavs. Yes I know that Jarrett Jacks is shorter and his PER is not as good as Manu’s but Jack is in his prime while Manu is more on the downhill side.

To those that keep bringing the loyalty BS as an argument, you’ll can go f*** yourselves because we haven’t won shit ever since Duncan has been out of his prime. Parker and Manu have been leading the team since 2007 so how many rings do they have to account for?

Coincidently the Spurs have done pretty well these past two years when Duncan seems to have turned back the clock. He lost weight which allowed him to improve on defense and regain a little bit of quickness that he used to have.

[TheGreatYacht]

Re-signing Manu was the right move, he is still a good player that helps Spurs.
$14.5M/2 years is too much money, he is overpaid.

Now, I don't really have an issue with Manu being overpaid as long as it doesn't hurt Spurs in other potential moves they can do. It's impossible for sure to say if Manu taking $1M or $2M less per year would have helped Spurs to improve more their team this summer but I'm strongly siding towards it has hurt Spurs.

Hopefully, Spurs could do one last move that could salvage a, as Manu would say, "so-so" offseason and make the Ginobili overpaying meaningless but it's a way remote hope.Good points. At the very most, Manu deserved to be paid $3.5M/per year or $7M/2 year which is about half of the amount that the FO paid him. If Manu would have taken that amount and if the FO would of traded or amnestied Matt Bonner, the Spurs could’ve signed a pretty good FA such as AK47/Jarrett Jack.

So much cap space was wasted on that washed up 36 year old SG and Matt Bonner. If the Spurs don’t make it back to the NBA finals and the holes (a SF or backup PG) that didn’t get patched during the offseason come back to haunt them then there is only one man to blame. His name is Manu Ginobili.
Manu is DONE,he looked like he was moving underwater vs Miami

His athleticism is gone,I felt bad for him getting blown by on practically every first step and then watching him wildly try to strip the ball from the dude that was leaving him in the dust.

He'll fill the seats and keep the SA locals happy though and that is worth a lot to PATFO

The second unit next year w/o Neal is gonna go through some ugly shooting droughts against good teams.

Plus Pop needs to yank Manu when he's clearly not "got" it instead of hoping he'll come around and give some of the younger guys a shot @ more minutes.http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRWJItfeuDWOdxZ_l1Q26FoYjegq3cq-BqfPjSisTt0vSI6HDpW1Q (http://www.spurstalk.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=well+said&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=aautbe80Y2tJmM&tbnid=51sARmcY0sJTxM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmilepoint.com%2Fforums%2Fthreads% 2Fpassengers-urged-to-fart.56686%2F&ei=AffyUdCgGY_m8QSh9IDICA&bvm=bv.49784469,d.eWU&psig=AFQjCNHztmq539yYsnp4PS82Srrp3vbUmA&ust=1374963832195945)

[TheGreatYacht]

.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Was he worthy of keeping? I could care less. TBH, I would of much rather used that $$$ on someone younger that is willing to come off the bench just like Manu and can hit a big shot when the team most needs it and his name is Jarrett Jack. Jarrett Jack will make roughly about the same amount of $$$ as Manu is with the Cavs. Yes I know that Jarrett Jacks is shorter and his PER is not as good as Manu’s but Jack is in his prime while Manu is more on the downhill side.

To those that keep bringing the loyalty BS as an argument, you’ll can go f*** yourselves because we haven’t won shit ever since Duncan has been out of his prime. Parker and Manu have been leading the team since 2007 so how many rings do they have to account for?

Coincidently the Spurs have done pretty well these past two years when Duncan seems to have turned back the clock. He lost weight which allowed him to improve on defense and regain a little bit of quickness that he used to have.
Jarrett Jack would have been unpopular fast. He chucks and isn't really a playmaker. His midrange is good but he's not really our style. Without a definite point guard that can consistently take pressure, we need Manu.

[TheGreatYacht]

Jarrett Jack would have been unpopular fast. He chucks and isn't really a playmaker. His midrange is good but he's not really our style. Without a definite point guard that can consistently take pressure, we need Manu.Playoff version of Jarrett Jack is better than the playoff version of Manu Ginobili, that's for sure.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Good points. At the very most, Manu deserved to be paid $3.5M/per year or $7M/2 year which is about half of the amount that the FO paid him. If Manu would have taken that amount and if the FO would of traded or amnestied Matt Bonner, the Spurs could’ve signed a pretty good FA such as AK47/Jarrett Jack.

So much cap space was wasted on that washed up 36 year old SG and Matt Bonner. If the Spurs don’t make it back to the NBA finals and the holes (a SF or backup PG) that didn’t get patched during the offseason come back to haunt them then there is only one man to blame. His name is Manu Ginobili.http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRWJItfeuDWOdxZ_l1Q26FoYjegq3cq-BqfPjSisTt0vSI6HDpW1Q (http://www.spurstalk.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=well+said&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=aautbe80Y2tJmM&tbnid=51sARmcY0sJTxM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmilepoint.com%2Fforums%2Fthreads% 2Fpassengers-urged-to-fart.56686%2F&ei=AffyUdCgGY_m8QSh9IDICA&bvm=bv.49784469,d.eWU&psig=AFQjCNHztmq539yYsnp4PS82Srrp3vbUmA&ust=1374963832195945)


btw if you think Tom stopped leading the team after 07, you're dumb.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Playoff version of Jarrett Jack is better than the playoff version of Manu Ginobili, that's for sure.
Based off what?

[td4mvp2k]

:lmao @ jack... stfu tro!

[TheGreatYacht]

:lmao @ jack... stfu tro!:lmao Manu cocksucker is pissed
Based off what?2013 Playoff Stats

Jarrett Jack 17.2 ppg, .506 fg%, .896 ft%, 4.4 rpg, 4.7 apg, 0.9 spg
Manu Ginobili 11.5 ppg, .399 fg%, .738 ft%, 3.7 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.1 spg

[Diego20]

Good points. At the very most, Manu deserved to be paid $3.5M/per year or $7M/2 year which is about half of the amount that the FO paid him. If Manu would have taken that amount and if the FO would of traded or amnestied Matt Bonner, the Spurs could’ve signed a pretty good FA such as AK47/Jarrett Jack.

So much cap space was wasted on that washed up 36 year old SG and Matt Bonner. If the Spurs don’t make it back to the NBA finals and the holes (a SF or backup PG) that didn’t get patched during the offseason come back to haunt them then there is only one man to blame. His name is Manu Ginobili.http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRWJItfeuDWOdxZ_l1Q26FoYjegq3cq-BqfPjSisTt0vSI6HDpW1Q (http://www.spurstalk.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=well+said&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=aautbe80Y2tJmM&tbnid=51sARmcY0sJTxM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmilepoint.com%2Fforums%2Fthreads% 2Fpassengers-urged-to-fart.56686%2F&ei=AffyUdCgGY_m8QSh9IDICA&bvm=bv.49784469,d.eWU&psig=AFQjCNHztmq539yYsnp4PS82Srrp3vbUmA&ust=1374963832195945)

Who say Manu deserves 3,5 mill per year? You? Then he does not deserve that. TD could earn 1 mill per year and we could try signing others (?), lol you're dumb.

[td4mvp2k]

Manu 3... Jack 0... :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

Who say Manu deserves 3,5 mill per year? You? Then he does not deserve that. TD could earn 1 mill per year and we could try signing others (?), lol you're dumb.Duncan > Manu. lol you're a Manutard.

[TheGreatYacht]

Manu 3... Jack 0... :lolRing counting is for dumbasses. How many rings does Parker and Manu have without Tim Duncan? ZERO. See how idiotic that looks? Rings are team accomplishments.

[Diego20]

Duncan > Manu. lol you're a Manutard.

I know Duncan is a lot better than Manu lol. But If you want more money to sign others players, there are more players in this team which could cut their pay. You're a Duncantard.

[td4mvp2k]

:lol and jack has wat??? Stfu!

[TheGreatYacht]

I know Duncan is a lot better than Manu lol. But If you want more money to sign others players, there are more players in this team which could cut their pay. You're a Duncantard.Duncan and Parker have taken pay cuts from their market value. What did Manu do this offseason? He got overpaid a ridiculous $14.5 M despite his pathetic performance in the playoffs. You're Argentinian so I can understand why you can't get Manu's cock of your mouth but it's all good.

[TheGreatYacht]

:lol and jack has wat??? Stfu!
:lol I have a 12 year old IQ.

[Diego20]

Duncan and Parker have taken pay cuts from their value. What did Manu do this offseason? He got overpaid a ridiculous $14.5 M despite his pathetic performance in the playoffs. You're Argentinian so I can understand why you can't get Manu's cock of your mouth but it's all good.

Here we go again, what was the "market value" of Duncan in the 2010-2011 season? It was not so high but he earned a lot more. You are so funny :lol

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Duncan and Parker have taken pay cuts from their value. What did Manu do this offseason? He got overpaid a ridiculous $14.5 M despite his pathetic performance in the playoffs. You're Argentinian so I can understand why you can't get Manu's cock of your mouth but it's all good.
People think you're a troll because you get butthurt way too easily. Someone doesn't agree with you = homer, manutard. Makes you look like you're 12

[td4mvp2k]

:lol wat a tro

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

And because you edit posts. Just weakens your argument

[TheGreatYacht]

Here we go again, what was the "market value" of Duncan in the 2010-2011 season? It was not so high but he earned a lot more. You are so funny :lol:lol @ reverting to type errors to win a basketball argument. You're a joke.
and jack has wat??? Stfu!
I have a 12 year old IQ.
I belong in the ESPN boards

[Diego20]

:lol @ reverting to type errors to win a basketball argument. You're a joke.

But answer my question or you dont know what a question is? What was the market value of Duncan after that season and what was his pay in the 2011-2012? Come on, search it.

[td4mvp2k]

:lol @ dis foo thinkn jack is parker n manu

[xmas1997]

Duncan > Manu. lol you're a Manutard.


It would have been nice if you could have made your points without the name calling, but you can't do that, can you?
You just have to resort to trying to piss people off when they disagree.
So I have to agree with those who claim you are either a troll, or a disagreeable immature insecure juvenile, better known as a punk ass kid.
Given the choice, I say you're a :troll, and one who likes to :deadhorse into the ground.
As your posts attest, you will end up hanging yourself, and even then, you would probably complain it wasn't a new rope!:lmao

[Diego20]

It would have been nice if you could have made your points without the name calling, but you can't do that, can you?
You just have to resort to trying to piss people off when they disagree.
So I have to agree with those who claim you are either a troll, or a disagreeable immature insecure juvenile, better known as a punk ass kid.
Given the choice, I say you're a :troll, and one who likes to :deadhorse into the ground.
As your posts attest, you will end up hanging yourself, and even then, you would probably complain it wasn't a new rope!:lmao

Yeah and nobody said that Manu is better than Duncan haha. He's seeing what he wants and not what is it.

[Strategic]

It's a decent contract.

[TheGreatYacht]

But answer my question or you dont know what a question is? What was the market value of Duncan after that season and what was his pay in the 2011-2012? Come on, search it.
There are unfortunate realities that capped-out NBA teams have to suffer through as they head from one capped-out season to the next. Changing the face of a franchise is no easy task When attempting to switch personnel while over the salary cap, you're more or less stuck with what you had last season. Luckily for the San Antonio Spurs (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/sas), they finished last season with Tim Duncan (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3173), Manu Ginobili (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3380), and Tony Parker. And, luckily for Spurs fans, Duncan's willingness to cut his pay in half next season will allow the team to keep all three and retain help for the aging trio.
The massive pay cut Duncan took likely represents the last contract of his NBA career — from $21.16 million in 2011-12 (http://shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/spurs.jsp) to $9.65 million in 2012-13 (http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/07/24/duncans-deal-three-years-30-million/). It's a move that helps the Spurs vie for a championship in his waning years nearly as much as Duncan's play helped win titles at his peak.
And it didn't go unnoticed by the great Mike Monroe of the San Antonio Express-News (http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2012/07/25/duncans-salary-cut-provides-tax-relief/):

After being the third-highest paid player in the league last season, behind only Lakers star Kobe Bryant ($25.24 million) and Boston's Kevin Garnett ($21.25 million), Duncan next season will be the fourth-highest paid Spur.
[…]
A two-time NBA Most Valuable Player, the 36-year-old Duncan will see his salary rise to $10.36 million for the 2013-14 season. The team captain is guaranteed $10 million for the 2014-15 season, but he has an opt-out clause.
Duncan's pay cut had been expected, but few thought he would agree to a drop as significant as this. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball-dont-lie/tim-duncan-cut-paycheck-half-san-antonio-spurs-161015938--nba.html If you can't understand then you're so dumb.
It would have been nice if you could have made your points without the name calling, but you can't do that, can you?
You just have to resort to trying to piss people off when they disagree.
So I have to agree with those who claim you are either a troll, or a disagreeable immature insecure juvenile, better known as a punk ass kid.
Given the choice, I say you're a :troll, and one who likes to :deadhorse into the ground.
As your posts attest, you will end up hanging yourself, and even then, you would probably complain it wasn't a new rope!:lmao
http://bjornlee.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/cheerleader.jpg (http://www.spurstalk.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=cheerleader&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=gbw73j4XfNn5rM&tbnid=ADKQqlHY9NM0kM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cracked.com%2Ffunny-2072-cheerleaders%2F&ei=Qv_yUaz3NY6A9QS63IDwBQ&bvm=bv.49784469,d.eWU&psig=AFQjCNGtvi8KQtle1Ile5qGKpMNHzs-nfw&ust=1374965946089007)http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2051/2173212842_ef11f9d062_z.jpg (http://www.spurstalk.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=obedient+sheep&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Q1afNkH_DISQGM&tbnid=wa0x-ZgqmSXwWM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fclicks_ 1000%2F2173212842%2F&ei=eP_yUcXoBpOM9ATrp4HoCA&bvm=bv.49784469,d.eWU&psig=AFQjCNESwTmn3TJVx_ZJSns5tEysPP5D3g&ust=1374965977261458)

[Sean Cagney]

It's a decent contract.

Time will tell like some said, based off last year though and the playoffs it's not. He will get paid this year though so lets see if he can turn it around some and have a good year and perform better in the playoffs, hope so.

[TheGreatYacht]

Who say Manu deserves 3,5 mill per year? You? Then he does not deserve that. TD could earn 1 mill per year and we could try signing others (?), lol you're dumb.
Yeah and nobody said that Manu is better than Duncan haha. He's seeing what he wants and not what is it You're the one that brought this nonsense on yourself. Don't even dare comparing Timmy to Manu.

[Diego20]

If you can't understand then you're so dumb.
http://bjornlee.files.wordpress.com/2006/10/cheerleader.jpg (http://www.spurstalk.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=cheerleader&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=gbw73j4XfNn5rM&tbnid=ADKQqlHY9NM0kM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cracked.com%2Ffunny-2072-cheerleaders%2F&ei=Qv_yUaz3NY6A9QS63IDwBQ&bvm=bv.49784469,d.eWU&psig=AFQjCNGtvi8KQtle1Ile5qGKpMNHzs-nfw&ust=1374965946089007)http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2051/2173212842_ef11f9d062_z.jpg (http://www.spurstalk.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=obedient+sheep&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Q1afNkH_DISQGM&tbnid=wa0x-ZgqmSXwWM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fclicks_ 1000%2F2173212842%2F&ei=eP_yUcXoBpOM9ATrp4HoCA&bvm=bv.49784469,d.eWU&psig=AFQjCNESwTmn3TJVx_ZJSns5tEysPP5D3g&ust=1374965977261458)

LOLLLLLLLLLL. The worst season of TD was 2010-2011 so in THAT SEASON he earned 21 millons. Which means he earned a lot more than he deserved and only cut their pay after 2011-2012. And this also means that you're a dumb and not me :lol.

[Sean Cagney]

LOLLLLLLLLLL. The worst season of TD was 2010-2011 so in THAT SEASON he earned 21 millons. Which means he earned a lot more than he deserved and only cut their pay after 2011-2012.

As a TIM fan I thought he was done that season as well, however he got his extension what year? He earned it in 011 you said, 21 million! That was during the season and how would they know he would fall off during the 011 season when he got that contract extension? He had a good 09-10 season, 011 is the only one he hit the damn wall and he was playing on his contract he got before that dip. Manu got his extension after his horrible playoffs and looking done! And got paid pretty well I must add.

Let me know when Tim got his extension that paid him 21 million that year?

[TheGreatYacht]

LOLLLLLLLLLL. The worst season of TD was 2010-2011 so in THAT SEASON he earned 21 millons. Which means he earned a lot more than he deserved and only cut their pay after 2011-2012.:lmao now you're trashing Timmy at the cost of defending your lover boy. :rollinYou're such a dumbass. I'm done arguing with retards.

[Diego20]

As a TIM fan I thought he was done that season as well, however he got his extension what year? He earned it in 011 you said, 21 million! That was during the season and how would they know he would fall off during the 011 season when he got that contract extension? He had a good 09-10 season, 011 is the only one he hit the damn wall and he was playing on his contract he got before that dip. Manu got his extension after his horrible playoffs and looking done! And got paid pretty well I must add.

Let me know when Tim got his extension that paid him 21 million that year?

Same happens with Manu hey! How we would know he would fall off during this season? This was his worst season after his rookie season.

[ElNono]

lol Jarret Jack

[Diego20]

:lmao now you're trashing Timmy at the cost of defending your lover boy. :rollinYou're such a dumbass. I'm done arguing with retards.

I'm saying the same that Sean Cagney said up there. Nobody of us knew that Manu would fall of this season. And if TD improved this two years, Manu could improve too.

[Diego20]

As a TIM fan I thought he was done that season as well, however he got his extension what year? He earned it in 011 you said, 21 million! That was during the season and how would they know he would fall off during the 011 season when he got that contract extension? He had a good 09-10 season, 011 is the only one he hit the damn wall and he was playing on his contract he got before that dip. Manu got his extension after his horrible playoffs and looking done! And got paid pretty well I must add.

Let me know when Tim got his extension that paid him 21 million that year?

TD should have sacrificed his salary after the 2010-2011 season but he did not because he got the extension in that year. And he finally did it in the 2012-2013. Well it is not a lot different than Manu situation. Manu sacrificed 50% of his salary after a very bad season.

[td4mvp2k]

TD should have sacrificed his salary after the 2010-2011 season but he did not because he got the extension in that year. And he finally did it in the 2012-2013. Well it is not a lot different than Manu situation. Manu sacrificed 50% of his salary after a very bad season.+1

[Sean Cagney]

TD should have sacrificed his salary after the 2010-2011 season but he did not because he got the extension in that year. And he finally did it in the 2012-2013. Well it is not a lot different than Manu situation. Manu sacrificed 50% of his salary after a very bad season.

How can you cut your salary during the year or the playoffs? When did he get the extension to pay him 21 million a year? If so Manu should have sacraficed his salary pay last year during the year too! WHY NOT! Manu did sacrafice 50% yes, but Tim barely makes more than him now and he is 100% times better at this point.

Tim was on a contract, MANUS contract was up, HUGE difference! NO?
+1

Manus contract was up and he got an extension, Tim took a paycut when his contract was up, which was not during the year mentioned! So that makes no sense at all what you guys are saying, who opts out of their contract to take less? HARDLY anyone.

You two are making no sense at all.

[Chomag]

They should have asked the Heat to pay a couple million of his contract. IT's only fair since he was their Finals MVP.:stirpot:

[td4mvp2k]

Manus contract was up and he got an extension, Tim took a paycut when his contract was up, which was not during the year mentioned! So that makes no sense at all what you guys are saying, who opts out of their contract to take less? HARDLY anyone. You two are making no sense at all.lol ya he took a paycut afta he optd in and players who want to win take less so dont give manu no sh*t for do'n no less wat td did... U have sum lookn to do to say whos not makn sense cuz a tru fan would kno dis!

[Diego20]

How can you cut your salary during the year or the playoffs? When did he get the extension to pay him 21 million a year? If so Manu should have sacraficed his salary pay last year during the year too! WHY NOT! Manu did sacrafice 50% yes, but Tim barely makes more than him now and he is 100% times better at this point.

Tim was on a contract, MANUS contract was up, HUGE difference! NO?

Manus contract was up and he got an extension, Tim took a paycut when his contract was up, which was not during the year mentioned! So that makes no sense at all what you guys are saying, who opts out of their contract to take less? HARDLY anyone.

You two are making no sense at all.

I said it before but I will say it again. This the first bad season of Manu (and he earned a lot in it), TD had one bad season TOO (and he earned a lot in it). TD played well this two last years, why not thinking that Manu will improve? lol

We will see if 7 millons per year contract is too high or not. For now, it is not.

[jestersmash]

Based off what?

The playoffs.

[therealtruth]

Manu can still recover. He needs to stop playing passive ball. I think the injuries have taken his aggression away. He feels like the team is good enough that he can just contribute by passing. It can work in the regular season but it killed us in the Finals. A guy who isn't shooting the ball is too easy to defend.

[cd021]

To bring back a Hall of Famer, one of the best international players ever and a living legend, is a great move. Money is not a problem in this case

I like Manu, but it was. A 2 year $10 million dollar deal would have made it easier to nab a player like AK-47. Keeping him and then keeping him healthy is one thing (actually two) but him playing anywhere similar to the version he was during the 10-11 or the 11-12 seasons is anyone guess. If he can be the guy off the bench who can produce 11-14pts, 4 rpg and 4 asts in 20-24 mpg on good shooting percentages then he's worth it.

[xmas1997]

I don't think Kirilenko was ever coming here.

[Budkin]

I think Manu has a good number of Game 5s left in him. Deal was too much but glad we still have him.

[Rogue]

something close to 5m/yr is the right market value for the current Manu imho. Dude gets the extra 50% from the spurs as a loyalty bonus imho

[TheGoldStandard]

I don't blame Manu for the deal.. this is on the Front Office and nothing can change that now. The biggest problem with the deal is that I don't think Manu will get better or stay in form consistently. It took Tim a few years to adjust his game to his diminished skills and it took a few more seasons for him to shed the weight and develop that 18 footer which isn't as consistent as it should be.

Manu would have to start working on a mid range game more in case he stalls and can't beat his defender and work on his 3 ball because it was piss poor last season.

[Kingsly Alexander]

5 million on 2 yrs for 10 pts 5 rbs 5 ats per 20 min would been GREAT

[Johnny RIngo]

It's definitely a bad deal. IIRC, there was an article posted here that said, based on advanced stats, Manu's play last year was only worth about 4.5 million/year. Factor in injuries(he'll miss at least 30 games next year) and decline due to age and we're overpaying a role player who will put up Gary Neal level production. Thank You Manu for the most disappointing offseason in the Tim Duncan era.

[Johnny RIngo]

Manu can still recover

No, he can't. Players with his style(slashers with an inconsistent jumper) don't get better with age.

[Texas_Ranger]

whoever says paying Manu 14,5M was a good deal is an idiot. He can't even play half of the game and gets injured every year. I love Manu but the contract is fucked up.

[BackHome]

Have to agree Love the guy but he should have retired or taken vet min....If we had a decent backup PG his role would greatly be diminished.

[Sean Cagney]

I said it before but I will say it again. This the first bad season of Manu (and he earned a lot in it), TD had one bad season TOO (and he earned a lot in it). TD played well this two last years, why not thinking that Manu will improve? lol

We will see if 7 millons per year contract is too high or not. For now, it is not.
We will see and if he earns it then great! I will root for Manu. I was namely saying this to him who said Tim should have opted out of a contract to take less? Why would anyone opt out of 20 million? Who has done that? I can't find many athletes that opt out. Manu though looked spent in the finals, similar to Tim in 011 late but he arose again so lets hope the other happens.
lol ya he took a paycut afta he optd in and players who want to win take less so dont give manu no sh*t for do'n no less wat td did... U have sum lookn to do to say whos not makn sense cuz a tru fan would kno dis!

WTF did you just say? Okay you made sense there. Like I said TIM was not a FA yet so why would he opt out of 20 million? Manu was a FA and took the 7 million, huge difference between a contract you are under then re-signing, still don't know how you can't understand that part.
whoever says paying Manu 14,5M was a good deal is an idiot. He can't even play half of the game and gets injured every year. I love Manu but the contract is fucked up.[QUOTE=Texas_Ranger;6781630]whoever says paying Manu 14,5M was a good deal is an idiot. He can't even play half of the game and gets injured every year. I love Manu but the contract is fucked up.

Most would agree with that, even some Argies said it was too much.

[elemento]

I will always root for Manu and I wanted him back despite his horrible playoff series, but he is not worth 7m/year.

Good move to bring him back and he is overpaid for what he produces, simple like that.

[td4mvp2k]

We will see and if he earns it then great! I will root for Manu. I was namely saying this to him who said Tim should have opted out of a contract to take less? Why would anyone opt out of 20 million? Who has done that? I can't find many athletes that opt out. Manu though looked spent in the finals, similar to Tim in 011 late but he arose again so lets hope the other happens.WTF did you just say? Okay you made sense there. Like I said TIM was not a FA yet so why would he opt out of 20 million? Manu was a FA and took the 7 million, huge difference between a contract you are under then re-signing, still don't know how you can't understand that part.lol @ da 24 hr post n wit da same sh*t... Gtfo!

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Let me put it this way. Last time we didn't have Manu we lost to an 8 seed

[cd021]

No way Manu was going to sign 2 year $10 million. He signed for half the money he used to make, which for me sounds right. And no way Kirilenko was going to sign with the Spurs.

I didn't say that Manu would sign it. I think its more his value at this point. I was using AK-47 as an example. But you don't know that for sure. It was either a bad team that overpays him or a good team that can work out a s&t. Brookyn as it turns out payed him $3 million (that we know of)

[Diego20]

No, he can't. Players with his style(slashers with an inconsistent jumper) don't get better with age.

Almost nobody get better with age, except TD (2010-2011). I would love if Manu improve this year.

[Agloco]

lulz @ Jack as the "answer".

Manus impact on the local economy over the next two years? Likely much greater than 14.5 mil tbh.

[cd021]

Let me put it this way. Last time we didn't have Manu we lost to an 8 seed

He was our leading scorer in that series, 20pts, 4 rpg, & 4 apg.

[therealtruth]

He was our leading scorer in that series, 20pts, 4 rpg, & 4 apg.

That proves my point. Manu started that year playing really bad. However when TP went down and he was forced into a more prominent role he started playing some of the best ball he had played as a Spur. I think after TP went down he was average something like 25-6-6. That's why I believe it's really a mindset thing with him. He feels this is TP's team and that he doesn't have to do as much. That being said I never understood the decision to give TP the keys to the team instead of Manu.

[xmas1997]

He was offered, and accepted, a 50% reduction in salary by the Spurs FO, considered by most experts to be the very best organization in all of sports. Wouldn't any of you do the same under the circumstances? I find it ludicrous that some people on here who have never held a decent job in their life feel justified in criticizing the best FO in all of sports and One of our big three. Who made you judge, jury, and executioner, who do you think you are, could you do better? I seriously doubt it! And I'm not making excuses, I am stating facts, not idiotic conjectures!

[tmtcsc]

The FO has put a lot of faith and hope in Manu returning to form in his final two years. His playoff performance was dismal and had he played up to his usual standards, I have no doubt we would have won the Championship. Even with his sub par play, we nearly won.

If he isn't able to turn things around, I hope Pop has the courage to bench him and Manu retires. Someone will need to "take the gun out of Manu's" hand before he hurts his legacy and the team.

[cd021]

That proves my point. Manu started that year playing really bad. However when TP went down and he was forced into a more prominent role he started playing some of the best ball he had played as a Spur. I think after TP went down he was average something like 25-6-6. That's why I believe it's really a mindset thing with him. He feels this is TP's team and that he doesn't have to do as much. That being said I never understood the decision to give TP the keys to the team instead of Manu.

What? Are you talking about the 10'-'11 season? Parker and Manu averaged the same amount of points. Parker is 5 years younger and showed Pop that he could be the go to guy by his play with France. Manu never would have worked as the first option, He is just to reckless.

[therealtruth]

What? Are you talking about the 10'-'11 season? Parker and Manu averaged the same amount of points. Parker is 5 years younger and showed Pop that he could be the go to guy by his play with France. Manu never would have worked as the first option, He is just to reckless.

I'm talking about '09-'10 season. When TP went down Manu became the best player. We don't make the playoffs that year if Manu doesn't step it up. In '10-'11 Manu kept up his good play and earned an all-star birth. Yet as the season went on his scoring average went down and like you said at the end of the year they had averaged the same amount of points.

[therealtruth]

The FO has put a lot of faith and hope in Manu returning to form in his final two years. His playoff performance was dismal and had he played up to his usual standards, I have no doubt we would have won the Championship. Even with his sub par play, we nearly won.

If he isn't able to turn things around, I hope Pop has the courage to bench him and Manu retires. Someone will need to "take the gun out of Manu's" hand before he hurts his legacy and the team.

We would have actually have been better of if Pop had benched Manu at times. That's how bad he was. It's not like he was just not doing much but he actively hurt us. If a player other than MG does that stuff he doesn't play.

[xmas1997]

Lets' not forget Manu is a two time Allstar and one of the Spurs big three. IMHO he still has a lot of good basketball in him regardless of this last playoffs. Even the best make mistakes, unlike tgy who apparently is perfect.

[Skull-1]

Be more specific...because giving Manu a new contract was good. Giving Manu a 2 year deal worth 14.5 million was bad.

This.

[Skull-1]

They should have asked the Heat to pay a couple million of his contract. IT's only fair since he was their Finals MVP.:stirpot:

[TheGreatYacht]

He was offered, and accepted, a 50% reduction in salary by the Spurs FO, considered by most experts to be the very best organization in all of sports. Wouldn't any of you do the same under the circumstances? I find it ludicrous that some people on here who have never held a decent job in their life feel justified in criticizing the best FO in all of sports and One of our big three. Who made you judge, jury, and executioner, who do you think you are, could you do better? I seriously doubt it! And I'm not making excuses, I am stating facts, not idiotic conjectures!The Spurs FO are good but they are highly overrated because of the franchise player Tim Duncan. The FO is never held accountable because they have Tim Duncan. You wouldn't be saying such as absurd statements if the Spurs wouldn't have drafted Tim Duncan. Who buys into all the BS that is said by the media and ESPN? They don't know shit.
The FO has put a lot of faith and hope in Manu returning to form in his final two years. His playoff performance was dismal and had he played up to his usual standards, I have no doubt we would have won the Championship. Even with his sub par play, we nearly won.

If he isn't able to turn things around, I hope Pop has the courage to bench him and Manu retires. Someone will need to "take the gun out of Manu's" hand before he hurts his legacy and the team.This.

Lets' not forget Manu is a two time Allstar and one of the Spurs big three. IMHO he still has a lot of good basketball in him regardless of this last playoffs. Even the best make mistakes, unlike tgy who apparently is perfect.I can understand the positive vibes and wishful thinking by one of the biggest homers on ST but let's not fool ourselves. Manu looked done on the court.

[dallasmaverickslose]

The Spurs FO are good but they are highly overrated because of the franchise player Tim Duncan. The FO is never held accountable because they have Tim Duncan. You wouldn't be saying such as absurd statements if the Spurs wouldn't have drafted Tim Duncan. Who buys into all the BS that is said by the media and ESPN? They don't know shit.This.
I can understand the positive vibes and wishful thinking by one of the biggest homers on ST but let's not fool ourselves. Manu looked done on the court.


Why the hell do you hate Manu so much? Did he run over your dog or something?

[Leetonidas]

It's obvious that TGY doesn't hate Manu at all but is probably still mad that he shit the bed in what should have been the title clinching game and coupled with the fact that Manu should have done the team of service and taken less money allowing the team to add pieces to the roster to put them over the hump ala Tim/Tony, he is still in the anger stage. Eventually he'll accept Manu again. Unless he really falls off a cliff next season. Then most of us will be pissed about a washed up 36 year old SG making 7 million a season.

Also, Duncan is TGY's favorite player and that 5th title and 4th Finals MVP would have meant a lot for his career legacy and perception. In his mind, Manu did everything he could to fuck that up in Game 6 when Duncan was a monster with 30/17. Can't say I blame him, but he does take it a bit far. Like I've said before, live with Manu, die with Manu

[TheGreatYacht]

It's obvious that TGY doesn't hate Manu at all but is probably still mad that he shit the bed in what should have been the title clinching game and coupled with the fact that Manu should have done the team of service and taken less money allowing the team to add pieces to the roster to put them over the hump ala Tim/Tony, he is still in the anger stage. Eventually he'll accept Manu again. Unless he really falls off a cliff next season. Then most of us will be pissed about a washed up 36 year old SG making 7 million a season.

Also, Duncan is TGY's favorite player and that 5th title and 4th Finals MVP would have meant a lot for his career legacy and perception. In his mind, Manu did everything he could to fuck that up in Game 6 when Duncan was a monster with 30/17. Can't say I blame him, but he does take it a bit far. Like I've said before, live with Manu, die with ManuThanks man, I appreciate those words. I really am pissed @ Manu for being a big factor in Timmy not getting his 5th ring. I used to love Manu.

I was actually defending him from my little brother all year long because my bro kept calling out Manu all season long. He kept saying things like "I hope that fucking old man retires, he's garbage now." I kept telling my bro that he's probably injured or recovering. I kept ignoring all the red lights such as his decline in free throw % and his turnovers throughout the regular season. I had a lot of faith in Manu that he would turn it on in the playoffs.

As the playoffs progressed, I began to realize that my bro might be right. I kept hoping every single night during the NBA Finals that he would break out of his slump. When he finally had that breakout night in Game 5, I was so happy for him. I actually got goose bumps hearing those “Manu” chants. I felt terrible that one night for all the shit I had said about him here on ST.

Little did I know that Manu would play so terrible in Game 6. I knew that Manu's performance in Game 5 was probably an illusion but I didn't expect him to turn the ball over 8 times in Game 6. Even though my criticism on Manu has been harsh, trust me I used to love the guy until Game 6 happened.

I've heard that there are some Manu haters out there that have hated him for a long time but I'm not one of them. Yeah I guess I'm still in the anger stage but what the hell. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I just voice my opinion the most.

If Manu redeems himself next season and we end up winning a championship next year all while Manu being an integral part of the team, then my resentment for him will completely banish. Sadly, I highly doubt this will happen. He doesn't seem like the type of player that can adjust his game to fit his lack of athleticism and loss of quickness.

I truly believe that father time has caught up to him. I really hope I'm wrong.

[Sean Cagney]

Thanks man, I appreciate those words. I really am pissed @ Manu for being a big factor in Timmy not getting his 5th ring. I used to love Manu.

I was actually defending him from my little brother all year long because my bro kept calling out Manu all season long. He kept saying things like "I hope that fucking old man retires, he's garbage now." I kept telling my bro that he's probably injured or recovering. I kept ignoring all the red lights such as his decline in free throw % and his turnovers throughout the regular season. I had a lot of faith in Manu that he would turn it on in the playoffs.

As the playoffs progressed, I began to realize that my bro might be right. I kept hoping every single night during the NBA Finals that he would break out of his slump. When he finally had that breakout night in Game 5, I was so happy for him. I actually got goose bumps hearing those “Manu” chants. I felt terrible that one night for all the shit I had said about him here on ST.

Little did I know that Manu would play so terrible in Game 6. I knew that Manu's performance in Game 5 was probably an illusion but I didn't expect him to turn the ball over 8 times in Game 6. Even though my criticism on Manu has been harsh, trust me I used to love the guy until Game 6 happened.

I've heard that there are some Manu haters out there that have hated him for a long time but I'm not one of them. Yeah I guess I'm still in the anger stage but what the hell. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I just voice my opinion the most.

If Manu redeems himself next season and we end up winning a championship next year all while Manu being an integral part of the team, then my resentment for him will completely banish. Sadly, I highly doubt this will happen. He doesn't seem like the type of player that can adjust his game to fit his lack of athleticism and loss of quickness.

I truly believe that father time has caught up to him. I really hope I'm wrong.

What is funny is most think this or know this in their minds, some Argie people and some Manu fans even think what you said right there in FULL! I thought if you can't muster up a game 6 or 7 to show up in the biggest stage then you are done, hell alot of fans think this! I love Manu and want him to have a vintage year, but is he done?

You are considered a troll to some in here, but to me you are like some I talk to here in VA not biased and some not even SPURS fans, some said it's all on Manu and it's his fault for the loss! Once again not even SPURS fans or on this board they said this to me! A Spurs fan at work said to me yeah he did play horrible but I love him still, but he did suck. You are not a troll IMO but a really passionate fan who goes over the top at times and gets emotional but we all do!

I agree with alot of what you said up there, even Manu fans whether they admit it or not deep down know you said some real stuff right there and will call you haters, but in the back of their mind it is a question they have too! IS HE DONE?

[td4mvp2k]

:lol @ :cry trolls :cry lose... Spurs fans win 2 yr $14m!

[Skull-1]

Even my ten-year old daughter was yelling at Pop every time he put Manu in during Game Six and Seven... (After it was clear in Game Six the guy was just not with it). A TEN YEAR OLD.

[dallasmaverickslose]

Even my ten-year old daughter was yelling at Pop every time he put Manu in during Game Six and Seven... (After it was clear in Game Six the guy was just not with it). A TEN YEAR OLD.

Thats nice.

[TXstbobcat]

I'm okay with the contract if he can stay healthy.

[Skull-1]

I'm okay with the contract if he can stay healthy.

I am not sure he can even stay healthy at the end of the bench, frankly...

[dallasmaverickslose]

I am not sure he can even stay healthy at the end of the bench, frankly...

As of late, neither can Parker.

[dbestpro]

Even my ten-year old daughter was yelling at Pop every time he put Manu in during Game Six and Seven... (After it was clear in Game Six the guy was just not with it). A TEN YEAR OLD.

My six year old asked why that man with the bald spot kept throwing the ball to the other team?

[Skull-1]

As of late, neither can Parker.

You're an idiot. Parker played way more minutes than Manu. And was still better than Ginobili even when hurt.

[Skull-1]

My six year old asked why that man with the bald spot kept throwing the ball to the other team?
LOL LOL LOL

[dallasmaverickslose]

You're an idiot. Parker played way more minutes than Manu. And was still better than Ginobili even when hurt.

You're an idiot. Parker has had his fair share of injuries.

[xmas1997]

The Spurs FO are good but they are highly overrated because of the franchise player Tim Duncan. The FO is never held accountable because they have Tim Duncan. You wouldn't be saying such as absurd statements if the Spurs wouldn't have drafted Tim Duncan. Who buys into all the BS that is said by the media and ESPN? They don't know shit.This.

And you know more, you're more of an authority than people who get paid lots of money, who base their careers, on reporting, or more than the most respected FOs in all of sports? No, you are the one who is full of shit, totally delusional in fact. If not, then they would have hired you to do it, Mr. Expert, at spewing out ridiculous conjectures!



I can understand the positive vibes and wishful thinking by one of the biggest homers on ST but let's not fool ourselves. Manu looked done on the court.

And what about you, a self proclaimed "homer", who has nothing better to do than make a continual fool of himself with idiotic blind accusations irregardless of the facts? You continue to hang yourself with each seceding piece of babble! I knew you would, you're the type.

[xmas1997]

The Spurs FO are good but they are highly overrated because of the franchise player Tim Duncan. The FO is never held accountable because they have Tim Duncan. You wouldn't be saying such as absurd statements if the Spurs wouldn't have drafted Tim Duncan. Who buys into all the BS that is said by the media and ESPN? They don't know shit.This.

And you know more, you're more of an authority than people who get paid lots of money, who base their careers, on reporting, or more than the most respected FOs in all of sports? No, you are one who is full of shit, totally delusional in fact. If not then they would have hired you to do it, Mr. Expert, at spewing out ridiculous conjectures!



I can understand the positive vibes and wishful thinking by one of the biggest homers on ST but let's not fool ourselves. Manu looked done on the court.

And what about you, a self proclaimed "homer", who has nothing better to do than make a continual fool of himself with idiotic blind accusations irregardless of the facts? You continue to hang yourself with each seceding babble! I knew you would, you're the type to keep sticking your foot in your mouth.:hat

[2centsworth]

1. As plain as the nose on your face, 2 for 14.5 is overpaid.

2. Manu has lost a good amount of first step quickness, which he will not regain.

3. Manu lost confidence in his ball handling, which he could regain.

4. Manu's jumper went to crap, which he could regain or even improve.

5. Manu's poor decision making is more pronounced and he's never shown any signs of improving in this area.

Manu's Potential: Solid ball handler with a solid jumper and occasional big play.

Downside: Failure really gets in his head and he collapses.

Projection: More bad than good. However, I hope for the best.

[Skull-1]

You're an idiot. Parker has had his fair share of injuries.

And still outplayed a healthy Ginobili....

[Skull-1]

We would have actually have been better of if Pop had benched Manu at times. That's how bad he was. It's not like he was just not doing much but he actively hurt us. If a player other than MG does that stuff he doesn't play.


The crux of the matter right there. Couldn't say it better...

[Sean Cagney]

1. As plain as the nose on your face, 2 for 14.5 is overpaid.

2. Manu has lost a good amount of first step quickness, which he will not regain.

3. Manu lost confidence in his ball handling, which he could regain.

4. Manu's jumper went to crap, which he could regain or even improve.

5. Manu's poor decision making is more pronounced and he's never shown any signs of improving in this area.

Manu's Potential: Solid ball handler with a solid jumper and occasional big play.

Downside: Failure really gets in his head and he collapses.

Projection: More bad than good. However, I hope for the best.
I think this is fair.

[ChumpDumper]

Even my ten-year old daughter was yelling at Pop every time he put Manu in during Game Six and Seven... (After it was clear in Game Six the guy was just not with it). A TEN YEAR OLD.You're an adult?

[Skull-1]

You're an adult?
76,000 posts of inanity and you question someone's adulthood? O.o

[ChumpDumper]

76,000 posts of inanity and you question someone's adulthood? O.oHow would you know they are all inane?

And you didn't answer the question.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

How would you know they are all inane?

And you didn't answer the question.

In other words, he's not.

Come on. Do you really think an adult would rationalize someone's life over a forum that takes two seconds to post in?

[Johnny RIngo]

I think this is fair.

The scary thing about this TOSB version of Manu is that he's not reliable at all in clutch moments. Ginobili used to be a guy that you could leave in the last few minutes of a game and expect nothing but good results. Now...I'd rather Danny Green be in there instead. 14 million for a guy you can't trust in late game moments? Definitely overpaid. Manu didn't deserve anything over 5 mil.

[Skull-1]

The scary thing about this TOSB version of Manu is that he's not reliable at all in clutch moments. Ginobili used to be a guy that you could leave in the last few minutes of a game and expect nothing but good results. Now...I'd rather Danny Green be in there instead. 14 million for a guy you can't trust in late game moments? Definitely overpaid. Manu didn't deserve anything over 5 mil. BOOM.

[Skull-1]

How would you know they are all inane?

And you didn't answer the question. A leopard doesn't change its spots. Or in your case, a tampon doesn't change its string.

[ChumpDumper]

A leopard doesn't change its spots. Or in your case, a tampon doesn't change its string.I am neither of those.

Again -- are you an adult? You have trouble with metaphors.

[ElNono]

The scary thing about this TOSB version of Manu is that he's not reliable at all in clutch moments. Ginobili used to be a guy that you could leave in the last few minutes of a game and expect nothing but good results. Now...I'd rather Danny Green be in there instead. 14 million for a guy you can't trust in late game moments? Definitely overpaid. Manu didn't deserve anything over 5 mil.

The Spurs are paying 14 million because unlike you, they do trust him in late game moments. If you're a fan, you better start hoping Manu does get his touch back, because "Manu in the clutch" is what's for dinner...

[xmas1997]

The Spurs are paying 14 million because unlike you, they do trust him in late game moments. If you're a fan, you better start hoping Manu does get his touch back, because "Manu in the clutch" is what's for dinner...

I agree!

[james evans]

if you watched the finals, there is no reason to even answer this.

[Skull-1]

if you watched the finals, there is no reason to even answer this.