Manu is NOT washed up, had = PER as Paul George for playoffs

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

BR


Ginobili Is Not Washed Up
Look, I realize that Ginobili is not a star anymore. He doesn't play nearly enough minutes and can't dazzle fans with amazing plays quite like he used to. And yes, he struggled mightily in four of the seven games of the finals.

But that's all it was—four games. Washed up, he is not.
For all the flak he took for a bad performance in the playoffs, Ginobili's Player Efficiency Rating was 16.5, higher than the league average of 15. Say it with me: "Ginobili is still an above-average player in the NBA (http://bleacherreport.com/nba). Ginobili is still an above-average player in the NBA."
Granted, PER does not have the final say on a player's overall effectiveness (Indiana Pacers (http://bleacherreport.com/indiana-pacers) star Paul George was essentially equal to Ginobili in the playoffs with a 16.6 PER), but it does take into account shooting efficiency and turnovers. These are the two areas in which fans criticized Ginobili the most.
What gets lost in all the criticism, though, is Ginobili's improving passing ability.
Ginobili averaged more assists per 36 minutes (6.8) in the 2013 NBA playoffs than he has in any previous playoff run. In fact, Ginobili even registered the best assist-to-turnover ratio of his playoff career this year (1.91-to-1).
All this, from a guy who one Twitter fan said deserves just (https://twitter.com/JMcDonald_SAEN/status/351082440057569280) $1 million per year. Jeff McDonald, a Spurs' beat writer for the San Antonio, pointed out the flaw in that contract.

Ginobili's Defensive Role
Ginobili isn't a punishing on-ball defender like he used to be, but he still makes an impact with his active feet and quick hands.

According to 82games.com (http://www.82games.com/1213/12SAS6.HTM), Ginobili held opposing shooting guards to 11.4 PER in 2012-13. The league average is 15, so Ginobili is definitely very good, even though he spent many of his minutes against bench players. Against small forwards and point guards, he allowed a 13.8 and 33.4 PER, respectively, in smaller sample sizes.
So basically, the 6'6" Ginobili should guard wings, not point guards.
If the Spurs are smart, they will put Ginobili on opposing small forwards when the second unit is on the floor. Marco Belinelli held opposing shooting guards to just a 12.3 PER last year with the Chicago Bulls (http://bleacherreport.com/chicago-bulls), also according to 82games.com (http://www.82games.com/1213/12CHI6.HTM). He is the logical shooting guard on the defensive end, which leaves Cory Joseph to defend opposing point guards. Joseph's 6'3" size and energetic nature will help him succeed.
None of the big men on the Spurs' bench are rim protectors, expect for maybe AronBaynes, who doesn't play much. This puts the onus on the Spurs to play together and communicate as a unit on defense to avoid getting beaten off the dribble, because no one will be able to sky for a big block.
Ginobili, as the elder statesmen of the Spurs' bench mob, will be the leader, as he always been, guarding small forwards when he plays with the second unit and whomever he needs to when he plays with the starters.

Bottom Line
Ginobili's athleticism has faded significantly in the past couple years. There's no question about that.


But after a disastrous ending to the 2012-13 season, Ginobili will learn to adjust his play to fit his now-limited athleticism. For the 2013-14 season, that means fewer risky drives to the basket, more corner threes, more setting the table for teammates and more communication with his teammates on defense when he needs help.
A summer off from international competition (he played in the Olympics last summer) could do wonders for Ginobili, but there's no doubt that Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich will still keep the 36-year-old's minutes in the low 20s. If Ginobili can get through the season without significant injury, that alone would be a major victory.
Maybe he'll even end up sparking the Spurs to title No. 5 instead of keeping them from it.

[SpursDynasty21]

Ginobili had the clutch shot against the Warriors, and still had a few other big games in the playoffs. I know he made some turnovers that hurt the Spurs, but he's still a good player.

[slick'81]

So less drives and more 3s isn't that what he's doing now lol

[Leetonidas]

What a retarded comparison to make. Manu is not washed up because he had the same PER as a young, future all-star who is like 23 and a great two way player...that makes a lot of sense :rolleyes

[Sean Cagney]

Blah blah blah. He sucked most of the playoffs. Per a stat I hardly look at, rather see how he did % wise and in big games. For the most part he was flat out subpar in the playoffs.

[Spur-Addict]

8

[lil'mo]

paul george didn't win a championship either

[Skull-1]

Blah blah blah. He sucked most of the playoffs. Per a stat I hardly look at, rather see how he did % wise and in big games. For the most part he was flat out subpar in the playoffs.

This.

[tmtcsc]

I'll choose to believe my eyes. He was awful. Those stats don't take in to account how his frantic plays and bad passes may not have resulted in turnovers but resulted in a terrible possession. They also don't take in to account "timing". Manu seemed to make terrible decisions at the worst possible moments. His play would kill momentum or spark the other team in to a run. That's what I saw. Per nothing.

[TrainOfThought5]

8

[Rogue]

Where's my nigga TheGreatYacht's responses in this thread?

I'm not a manu fan and I admit that he may struggle to perform at times due to his age but when he's in good form he's still easily one of the big 3 on this team imho. If I remember correct in an article he was ranked #3 of all SGs in today's league, even above Kobe (who was placed at #4), only behind Wade and Harden. Although the author of that article might be a closet spurs fan (since he also picked Danny Green as the #8 on his list, which I believe is too high for him), Manu is still safely a 2nd-tier SG in today's league at least, parallel to the likes of Monta, Kevin Martin and friend killer

[Sean Cagney]

I'll choose to believe my eyes. He was awful. Those stats don't take in to account how his frantic plays and bad passes may not have resulted in turnovers but resulted in a terrible possession. They also don't take in to account "timing". Manu seemed to make terrible decisions at the worst possible moments. His play would kill momentum or spark the other team in to a run. That's what I saw. Per nothing.
DAMN RIGHT! Manu fan get over it he was horrible and even NON SPURS fans I talk to daily talk about it and say he looks done after that and he looked horrible. Facts are facts, fuck your per crap, he was horrible accept it!

[slick'81]

Lol per

[Vash StampedE]

Hey NO LIFE SCRUB, stop with your fixation of TheGreatYacht.

[siraulo23]

are you a manu fan?

[Vash StampedE]

^He is, but I think TGY excites him more than Manu.

[td4mvp2k]

paul george didn't win a championship either:tu

[Leetonidas]

paul george didn't win a championship either

how is that relevant in any way?

[superbigtime]

Screw numbers and stats. Manu was an embarassment. He got his shit together for one game in the Finals. His bad passes, bad timing, bad decisions, helter skelter play, full-on spazz mode, and unclutch-ness were a nightmare and doomed the Spurs. Plain and simple.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I love Manu, but you'd have to be a dipshit to choose him over George.

[dunkman]

An above average player avoids playing like crap in a championship clinching game.

[TheGreatYacht]

Fuck the PER. Just look at his FG% and FT% throughout the playoffs. Against a team like the Heat that likes to blitz or double team the pick n roll, passing becomes less effective and a player's true ability to create his own shot off the dribble becomes more effective.

Manu's best performance was in Game 5 and if you play close attention, most of his points came off ISO's, penetrations, or beating his man off the dribble. Why Pop didn't use more ISO's for Parker and Manu in Game 6 is beyond me. If the strategy worked for Game 5, why not keep doing it until it fails. Instead, senile Pop went back to spamming the pick n roll which leads to a passive Manu throwing the ball to Heat players.

I blame Pop just as much as Manu for costing Timmy his 5th ring. Pop set up Manu for failure in Game 6 by not running some 1 on1 plays for Manu and also by leaving him on the floor despite all the bricks he was throwing from the three point line. Manu also had horrendous shooting throughout the playoffs so that's on him. Manu's shooting touch was not there all year long.

Fucking Pop and Manu cost Timmy his 5th ring. Assholes.

Pay close attention to all of Manu's points. Most of them came from one on one plays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6VIz-bEtk4

[superbigtime]

yep.

[Plum Island]

Fuck the PER. Just look at his FG% and FT% throughout the playoffs. Against a team like the Heat that likes to blitz or double team the pick n roll, passing becomes less effective and a player's true ability to create his own shot off the dribble becomes more effective.

Manu's best performance was in Game 5 and if you play close attention, most of his points came off ISO's, penetrations, or beating his man off the dribble. Why Pop didn't use more ISO's for Parker and Manu in Game 6 is beyond me. If the strategy worked for Game 5, why not keep doing it until it fails. Instead, senile Pop went back to spamming the pick n roll which leads to a passive Manu throwing the ball to Heat players.

I blame Pop just as much as Manu for costing Timmy his 5th ring. Pop set up Manu for failure in Game 6 by not running some 1 on1 plays for Manu and also by leaving him on the floor despite all the bricks he was throwing from the three point line. Manu also had horrendous shooting throughout the playoffs so that's on him. Manu's shooting touch was not there all year long.

Fucking Pop and Manu cost Timmy his 5th ring. Assholes.

Pay close attention to all of Manu's points. Most of them came from one on one plays.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6VIz-bEtk4


Cogent words. Why did Pop go away from the ISO's that were working well?

[therealtruth]

Cogent words. Why did Pop go away from the ISO's that were working well?

It makes no sense. When TP got the late basket in game 6 that put them up 5 it was of an iso. It seems Pop sometimes doesn't realize what works and what doesn't. He basically let Spoelstra off the hook by allowing him to get by with playing bad defenders. We should have been attacking Chalmers and Miller every time down the court not Lebron.

[ElNono]

ISOs work great on 2K14 too, tbh

[Vash StampedE]

If it's simple as you guys say it is, Pop would love to call for ISOs as much as possible. But you have to recognize that Miami does play good defense despite how great Spurs' offense is. You can't expect Parker, during the closing minutes of those games, to easily get by his defender, and score or make plays. Not with Lebron guarding him. That 3 pointer he made late in game 6, with Lebron guarding him, was very difficult and knowing that Parker is a poor shooter beyond the arc, I felt that that was a very lucky possession. Tony was able to score again in their next possession due to Miami missing which led to them scrambling in transition defense and forcing Chalmers to guard him. With 3 pointers not falling for the Spurs during the last 2 games, you could only expect those kind of opportunities to score a few number of times.

As for Manu, well he is old, though I agree that Pop should have made calls to put the ball more on Manu's hands, or even Kawhi. I really hope that by next season, Pop would be true to his words and have more plays called for Kawhi. I want ISOs for Kawhi!!!!!

[Kidd K]

Bad stats. Manu only played 26 minutes a game to George's 41, so of course minutes-adjusted stats will make Manu appear slightly better than he really was in comparison to guys who are workhorsing practically entire games against star players the entire time rather than getting most of his minutes against 2nd stringers and playing with 2 HOFers and All NBA 1st teamers when he isn't playing against 2nd stringers.

Ginobili's best round was round 1, against the VERY shitty Lakers that we swept in 4 blowouts. That padded his overall stats for the postseason by a lot. Ginobili's second best round was round 2, where he got killed on defense but yes, he did manage to actually make plays (not score a lot, but he made plays).

When it got to the harder rounds, Ginobili started to disappear. He was mediocre against the Grizzlies (had one good game and thats it) and was atrocious against the Heat. 5 of his 7 games against Miami were shitty games. One was an average "what we expect" from Manu game, and one was good. So at best you can say Ginobili is useful in the rounds that don't matter against teams that we should be beating anyway (teams we're ranked as noticably better than).

Meanwhile Paul George was playing 41 minutes a game to Ginobili's 26 a game, and also playing without HCA for 2 of his 3 series instead of 1 of 4. George also didn't have Parker to bail him out of playmaking duties for most of the game, all he has was George Hill.

Different and more difficult circumstances for Paul George. You need to compare Manu to what Manu was last year and the year before, not to other players who play much higher minutes, against non 2nd stringers most of the time, without HCA, with different teammates around them, and against the #1 and #2 seeds of the east while only in his third season (first with a major role) and acting like their PER being similar actually means something.

[Skull-1]

I'll choose to believe my eyes. He was awful. Those stats don't take in to account how his frantic plays and bad passes may not have resulted in turnovers but resulted in a terrible possession. They also don't take in to account "timing". Manu seemed to make terrible decisions at the worst possible moments. His play would kill momentum or spark the other team in to a run. That's what I saw. Per nothing.

When it comes to momentum killing/bad passes to hose posessions...there is no stat for that, luckily for Manu...

[therealtruth]

If it's simple as you guys say it is, Pop would love to call for ISOs as much as possible. But you have to recognize that Miami does play good defense despite how great Spurs' offense is. You can't expect Parker, during the closing minutes of those games, to easily get by his defender, and score or make plays. Not with Lebron guarding him. That 3 pointer he made late in game 6, with Lebron guarding him, was very difficult and knowing that Parker is a poor shooter beyond the arc, I felt that that was a very lucky possession. Tony was able to score again in their next possession due to Miami missing which led to them scrambling in transition defense and forcing Chalmers to guard him. With 3 pointers not falling for the Spurs during the last 2 games, you could only expect those kind of opportunities to score a few number of times.

As for Manu, well he is old, though I agree that Pop should have made calls to put the ball more on Manu's hands, or even Kawhi. I really hope that by next season, Pop would be true to his words and have more plays called for Kawhi. I want ISOs for Kawhi!!!!!

It's just not about isos but attacking favorable matchups. I agree anyone against Lebron isn't probably the matchup you should be attacking hoping to score. You do want to make him work on defense but that probably won't be a favorable matchup for scoring. That being said the Spurs were capable of playing better defense against the Heat than they showed.

[cjw]

Where's my nigga TheGreatYacht's responses in this thread?

I'm not a manu fan and I admit that he may struggle to perform at times due to his age but when he's in good form he's still easily one of the big 3 on this team imho. If I remember correct in an article he was ranked #3 of all SGs in today's league, even above Kobe (who was placed at #4), only behind Wade and Harden. Although the author of that article might be a closet spurs fan (since he also picked Danny Green as the #8 on his list, which I believe is too high for him), Manu is still safely a 2nd-tier SG in today's league at least, parallel to the likes of Monta, Kevin Martin and friend killer

Pretty sure that article took the Kobe injury into consideration (was based on future value), so Manu's really fourth on that list. It also took into account the fact that Tony will probably get hit by a flying glass object yet again this summer and miss 2/3 of the season.

[Skull-1]

Pretty sure that article took the Kobe injury into consideration (was based on future value), so Manu's really fourth on that list. It also took into account the fact that Tony will probably get hit by a flying glass object yet again this summer and miss 2/3 of the season.

exactly. Fell in love with Hollywood. I bet if they were threatening to trade his pimp azz he would shape up.

[DAF86]

Manu can still be very productive for the Spurs but Popovic HAS to disminish his role, playing him off the ball A LOT more. Let Leonard take his place as the main creator when Tony isn't in the court (seriously it's more than due). If Manu plays as role player his efficiency will improve (for ex: less step back three's, more spot up opportunities, less TO's off pick and rolls, etc.), these things added to his natural feel for the game, energy and inventive ways would make of Manu a pretty damn good role player, imho.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

Wasn't George pretty AWFUL against the Heat? George couldn't be a lot more overrated TBH. Not sure why everyone thinks he is great.

[Mhak]

Per this Manu clearly washed up our championship. That's a fact. Old geezer is done. Nothing to see here and next season will be more teeth cringing. I like the guy but you have to see or not to be a homer to see that he is done!

[elmanutres]

Manu should've worn a heat jersey and won the finals MVP. Fuck PER.

[look_at_g_shred]

No comparison.

[Skull-1]

Manu should've worn a heat jersey and won the finals MVP. Fuck PER.

[Baseline]

Manu should've worn a heat jersey and won the finals MVP. Fuck PER. And because he didn't get a Heat Finals MVP trophy, the Spurs felt bad for him. So they paid him 14.5 million as a consolation prize.

[rascal]

PER is a joke

Paul George > Manu

George's future play arrow is pointing up while Manu's is pointing down

George Hill is even better than Manu now.

[still.focused]

how is that relevant in any way?
I believe the thinking is, in the grand scheme the team goal is winning the chip
And touting Manu for having the same PER as George is pointless cuz George didnt help his team win a chip either

[sventhedog]

oh my god! how did the spurs lose then?

[Sean Cagney]

oh my god! how did the spurs lose then?But but but his Per!!!!!!!!! Not his 8 TO's in game 6 and the stupid TO's late in game 7 which a friend at work even said Manu lost it for you guys and he is not a Spurs fan!!!!!!!!!!! He mentioned that as well, but most admit he is a Spurs legend Spurs fans or not . He sucked this postseason pretty much, we all know he was horrible and if some deny it they are just in denial. Some need to accept it, he was horrible. He had his game or two, thats it.

[Johnny RIngo]

lmao at Manu being as good as Paul George. TOSB Manu is a Geroge Hill level player(probably worse)

[Skull-1]

But but but his Per!!!!!!!!! Not his 8 TO's in game 6 and the stupid TO's late in game 7 which a friend at work even said Manu lost it for you guys and he is not a Spurs fan!!!!!!!!!!! He mentioned that as well, but most admit he is a Spurs legend Spurs fans or not . He sucked this postseason pretty much, we all know he was horrible and if some deny it they are just in denial. Some need to accept it, he was horrible. He had his game or two, thats it.
But but but his Per!!!!!!!!! Not his 8 TO's in game 6 and the stupid TO's late in game 7 which a friend at work even said Manu lost it for you guys and he is not a Spurs fan!!!!!!!!!!! He mentioned that as well, but most admit he is a Spurs legend Spurs fans or not . He sucked this postseason pretty much, we all know he was horrible and if some deny it they are just in denial. Some need to accept it, he was horrible. He had his game or two, thats it. So Right I have to quote it twice.

[ElNono]

tbh, didn't think Paul George was that great either...