Rosen: Best all-time centers - Rosen pisses of spurs fans again

[DieMrBond]

Best all-time centers
Story Tools: Print Email XML
Charley Rosen / Special to FOXSports.com
Posted: 3 hours ago

The biggest of the bigs are (or should be) always in the middle of the action. They are the most dangerous offensive forces simply because defenses are usually most vulnerable in direct proportion to how close the ball is to the basket. Conversely, centers provide the last line of defense for their teams. That's why they are typically the most dominant and important players on their teams.

#1 — BILL RUSSELL

Bill Russell was so good that he revolutionized the game. Even the most casual NBA fans know that Russell was an outstanding rebounder and shot-blocker. He led the NBA five times in the former category and finished with a lifetime per game average of 22.5 rebounds. Unfortunately, the NBA didn't officially record blocked shots until 1973-74, four seasons after Russell retired. But what first-hand witnesses can testify to, however, is that Russell's timing and quick-lift were so uncanny that he could keep his feet on the court until the ball left the shooter's hand and still deflect the shot. At the same time, Russell had the knack of hitting the ball so that it remained in bounds and could therefore be recovered by the defense. That's how he turned layups into short-jumpers, short-jumpers into mid-range jumpers and mid-range jumpers into long-range jumpers.

Before every season, Wilt Chamberlain would establish his own overriding priority. (Wen Roberts-NBA Photos / Getty Images)

In half-court sets, he scored with an accurate lefty hook, numerous put-backs and an occasional low-flying, wrist-snapping cross between a jumper and a one-handed set shot. During his 13 seasons with Boston, Russ tallied 15.1 ppg. But Russell was also one of the most fleet-footed centers of his time. Indeed, if his defensive rebounds and accurate outlet passes ignited Boston's famous running game, Russell's speed enabled the Celtics to run a five-man fast break. Accordingly, many of his points came via dunk shots on the trail end of the breaks.

He was much stronger than his 6-foot-10, 220-pound frame suggested. He had great hands, an unconquerable will to win, thorough understanding of every nuance (physical and psychological) and a willingness to sublimate his ego for the sake of team goals.

Russell's five MVP trophies (1958, 1961-63, 1965) and 11 rings proved for all time that defense wins championships.

#2 — KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR

More from Charley Rosen ...
# All-time best centers
# All-time best power forwards
# All-time best point guards
# All-time best shooting guards
# All-time best small forwards

Putting the ball through the orange ring was always Kareem's specialty, as evidenced by the fact that he's the NBA's all-time leading scorer — a 20-year total of 38,387 that averages out to 24.6 ppg.

He was an active rebounder and shot-blocker when he was young, but defense wasn't really his forte. Despite his being named to five NBA All-Defensive teams, his lateral movement wasn't terrific and he rarely ventured too far from the shadow of the basket. With his dreadnaught sky-hook as his primary weapon, however, Kareem shot a fantastic 55.9 percent over his entire career! He could also spin and bank angle-jumpers, as well as turn offensive rebounds into dunkers.

An opponent's only hope was to be physical in defense of Kareem (always making sure to avoid being pronged by his sharp, aggressive elbows), and hope that he'd be weary in the end-game. He was an effective passer, so double-teaming wasn't much of an option, and was, in fact, an illegal tactic until late in Abdul-Jabbar's career. The only other effective strategy was to counter him with a hot-shooting center — which were scarce in those days — and attack Kareem with high screen/rolls. But whatever measures were taken to try to control his high-altitude offense, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was always the "center"-piece of the action.

His Hall-of-Fame resume includes a record six MVP awards (1971-'72, '74, '76-'77, 1980) and a like number of NBA championships. He was playing championship basketball at age 42 and could have continued for a few more years — but the league's referees were tired of Kareem and started to whistle him for charging fouls, hacks, traveling and palming violations that they'd been excusing for so long.

If Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's intense pride bordered on arrogance, his on-court excellence could only inspire admiration and awe.

#3 — SHAQUILLE O'NEAL

His Bigness (including his mouth, girth, intelligence, sense of humor and accomplishments) is still on the scene. For sure, he's slow off the floor, a limited rebounder, and a mostly stationary defender — but Shaq remains one of the best ever. Aside from Kevin McHale, Shaq has more moves at his disposal in the pivot than anyone else in the record book.

Russell was better on defense and infinitely more dominant. Abdul-Jabbar could score more points more efficiently. And, although Shaq has spent many seasons out of shape, struggling with injuries, and/or giving in to his own ennui, he's still more consistently competitive than was Chamberlain.

#4 — WILT CHAMBERLAIN

The only aspect of his game that prevented Chamberlain from leading the big man parade was his gargantuan ego. Before every season, Wilt would establish his own overriding priority, which was usually to lead the NBA in scoring (which he did from 1959-66), or rebounding (1959-63, '65-'69, '70-'73). One year (1967-68), the Big Dipper decided he'd be the NBA's leading passer. Therefore, instead of simply dunking unopposed offensive rebounds, Chamberlain would pass the ball out to Hal Greer — a reliable sharpshooter. And when all the numbers were tabulated at season's end, Chamberlain had accumulated a league-best 8.6 assists per game.

The trouble was that Chamberlain rarely focused on winning championships. He did win with the 1966-67 Philadelphia Warriors, but only after coach Alex Hannum shoved Wilt against a locker and threatened to smash his face if he didn't play the game the right way. Wilt's other title, with the 1971-72 L.A. Lakers, was motivated by coach Bill Sharman's slick psychology. "I'd just keep asking him questions about strategy," says Sharman, "until Wilt came up with the right answer. Then I'd tell him how smart he was and what a great idea he'd come up with. Thinking that every important strategy was his, Wilt played championship ball."

Bill Walton's heart, talent and understanding of the game were always in tip-top condition, even if his ankles weren't. (NBA Photos / Getty Images)

#5 — GEORGE MIKAN

The Babe Ruth of the NBA, Mikan's Minneapolis Lakers were the league's first dynasty, winning titles in 1949, '50 and '52-54 (plus two previous championships in the NBL). Big George was bigger, stronger, smarter, meaner and more fundamentally sound than his peers. He scored with right- and left-handed hooks and pivot shots (an extinct art form that was midway between an authentic hook and a jump hook), step-back one-handed flips and put-backs. From 1946-54, Mikan was scoring in the mid- to upper 20s at a time when a player's scoring 15 points was deemed to be a heroic effort. Mikan was his league-of-the-moment's leading point-maker in six of his nine pro seasons.

The NBA revised its rules on several occasions to hinder Mikan — including widening the lane, raising the basket to 12 feet, granting defensive players both inside lane spots on free throws and outlawing offensive goal tending. It was the 24-second shot clock (mandated for the 1954-56 season) that finally terminated Mikan's effectiveness and his career (except for a part-time comeback to play with his brother Ed in 1955-56).

During his short-lived hey day, Mikan was as dominant in his own fashion as were Russell and Abdul-Jabbar.

Here's your chance to fire back at Charley Rosen. Got a question or a comment? Submit it below and Charley will respond to the best ones in regular mailbag features.
Subject:

Comment/Question:

Name: (ex, john doe)
Email: (ex, [email protected])
Hometown:

#6 — HAKEEM OLAJUWON

Hakeem Olajuwon was easily the most athletic of the top-ranked centers. In truth, he was a power forward successfully masquerading as a center.

When he first came into the league in 1984, Olajuwon relied mostly on a super-swift drop-step to generate his scoring opportunities. Then he learned to fake the drop-step and make a counter move — the turnaround jumper. From there, his offensive repertoire expanded in quantum leaps — face-up jumpers, drives and spins, jump hooks. Eventually, he became a virtually unstoppable scorer who concluded 19 seasons averaging 21.8 ppg.

And his defense was even better. Hakeem was incredibly quick to the ball. He led the NBA three times in blocked shots with a high of 4.59 per game in 1989-90, and is the NBA's career leader in that area. With his long arms and explosive hops, Olajuwon was also a dynamic rebounder — twice leading the league. But it was his incredible speed and single-minded desire to get a piece of every shot taken in his vicinity that also got him into chronic foul trouble.

What couldn't he do? Make accurate passes on a regular basis and dribble the ball in traffic.

Hakeem paced the Houston Rockets to back-to-back championships from 1994-95. Through it all, Olajuwon never cut a corner, never gave less than his best and was always a responsible citizen on and off the court.

#7 — NATE THURMOND

Former Spur David Robinson didn't quite make the top 10 centers of all-time list. (Brian Bahr / Getty Images)

This guy was simply a monster on defense. At 6-foot-11, 245 pounds, he was big, strong, active and intense. He could also score — mostly on offensive rebounds, jump hooks and backboard-rattling bank shots from 10 feet and in. But forget about the several seasons where Thurmond averaged 20-plus points a game (1967-72), his focus was on shutting down his opponents' numbers.

His battles with Chamberlain were legendary. Thurmond was the only defender who could get his hands on and totally negate Chamberlain's trademark finger-roll. Thurmond was just as determined to snare every missed shot. He finished his injury-wracked 14-year career averaging 15.0 rebounds per contest — and twice he averaged more than 20 caroms.

Thurmond played in an almost forgotten age where giants roamed the paint. Not only did he hold his own against the likes of Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar and Bob Lanier, he made them sweat for every shot and dispensed a bruise for every score.

#8 — BILL WALTON

The redhead was fully healthy for only 2 3/4 seasons: In 1976-77, when he keyed the Trail Blazers to a championship, and in '86, when he contributed valuable sixth-man-minutes to Boston's title run. In 1977-78, Walton played in only 58 games but was still honored as the league's MVP. During his entire career (1974-88), Walton missed four complete seasons with foot and ankle injuries.

When his wheels were sound, Walton could run, rebound and block shots (he led the league in both categories in 1976-77). He was totally committed to a team concept and, although he could score on jump hooks, bank shots and a variety of sudden drives and twisting moves, he scored only when he had to. In his best offensive season (1978-79), Walton scored 18.9 ppg, and finished his career with an impressive field goal accuracy of 52.1 percent.

He was a talented, and an unselfish ball distributor. Moreover, his defense was routinely outstanding whether throwing a bag over his individual opponent or rotating to help-spots in Jack Ramsay's crafty schemes.

Walton's career was blighted, however, when he signed a free-agent contract with the San Diego Clippers in 1979. At the time, the Clips were strictly an individualistic ball club, so Walton was forced to show his new teammates what he could do in one-on-one situations. This just wasn't enough to either make a difference or find his own comfort zone.

Despite the fact that Walton is the NBA's all-time leader in foot-and-ankle surgeries, his heart, talent and understanding of the game were always in tip-top condition.

Slightly off-center

# David Robinson — too soft and too clutchless to succeed without being carried by Tim Duncan.

# Moses Malone — a tireless rebounder who was disinclined to pass, play defense or let any teammate take more shots than he did.

# Bob Lanier — no defense to speak of.

# Neil Johnston — the real deal as long as he lasted.

# Wes Unseld and Willis Reed — courage and toughness personified.

# Jerry Lucas — great hands, shooting range and perhaps the most intelligent practitioner of the art and science of playing the five-spot.

Charley Rosen, former CBA coach, author of 12 books about hoops, the current one being A pivotal season — How the 1971-72 L.A. Lakers changed the NBA, is a frequent contributor to FOXSports.com.

[ace3g]

I hate rosen; last time I checked Shaq didnt win any championships without the help of Kobe; and anyone who calls David soft and clutchless is a retard

[Sense]

I hate rosen; last time I checked Shaq didnt win any championships without the help of Kobe; and anyone who calls David soft and clutchless is a retard

I think Shaq would've been able to win without Kobe... not anymore though, he too old.

[BronxCowboy]

The fact that he put Shaq ahead of Wilt is all the evidence I need that this fool is as clueless as they come.

[timvp]

Nate Thurmond and Bill Walton > David Robinson?

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

What a joke. Walton had two good seasons in his NBA career. Thurmond was a good player, but what did he ever win? Robinson was at least as good of a defender as Thurmond, but was a much better scorer.

:flipoff Rosen

[wildbill2u]

Give Shaq credit. . . he's been able to bulldoze a star-starved league into letting him get away with bulling his way to the basket with a whole series of illegal moves.

[ace3g]

plus his 300+ pound body that he carries around

[exstatic]

I think Shaq would've been able to win without Kobe... not anymore though, he too old.
Well, he was 0-1 in that regard, and with a pretty damn good cast from Orlando.

Rosen is entitled to his opinions. I don't share them. Walton in NO WAY belongs on this list. That's like putting Sam "crutches" Bowie on here. Walton wouldn't even be in the HOF if it were the NBA HOF and not the "Basketball" HOF. His college career got him in.

Those of you spitting and cussing keep in mind that you were probably cackling over his disses of Malone and KG last week.
:fro

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Someone tell Rosen to go look up DRob's stat line in the deciding game 6 of the NJ Finals series and get back to me about being soft and clutchless.

[DieMrBond]

Also, i dont know if i agree with this line most of all (apart from the DRob stuff, of course)

"Aside from Kevin McHale, Shaq has more moves at his disposal in the pivot than anyone else in the record book."

Hakeem anyone?

[ace3g]

Shaq doesnt have skill he has weight

[exstatic]

Also, i dont know if i agree with this line most of all (apart from the DRob stuff, of course)

"Aside from Kevin McHale, Shaq has more moves at his disposal in the pivot than anyone else in the record book."

Hakeem anyone?

Tim, anyone?
:lol :lol :lol

[Mr. Body]

Over time I think Shaq's star will wane somewhat.

Robinson has to beat Walton, who was crippled by injuries and a great team player, but not one of the best of all time. Even healthy he wouldn't have been, and certainly wasn't the defensive force Robinson was. I know little about Nate Thurmond.

But this is a sloppy job, at least. If Robinson is cast so low, does that explain why Patrick Ewing doesn't get a mention at all, not even an honorable mention?

[milkyway21]

#8 — BILL WALTON

:huh how come Rosen put him ahead DRob.

1 MVP; 1 DPOY; 2 titles; Olympic record holder in scoring; 2 Gold Medals -still the Admiral can't get enough respect.

Rosen is an :idiot

[slayermin]

Bill Russell is overrated.

[2centsworth]

What's overlooked is the importance of David's character. Today's team and management have a lot of David's personality. Sometimes it's hard to understand the impact David has had on this city and franchise unless you live here.

David is numero uno in my book.

[exstatic]

Bill Russell is overrated.


No he's not. Only two players in history have won a title with a COMPLETE roster re-load: Big Bill and Big Fundamental.

Winning is NEVER overrated, and Bill did it more than anyone else. The man cannot even wear all of his rings at once unless he unzips or takes off a shoe.

[duncan_21]

I would be dissapointed if I respected rosen. Since I don't I'll let this roll right off my shoulder.

[samikeyp]

Dude wasn't even smart enough to do a top 10! :)

[ace3g]

The man cannot even wear all of his rings at once unless he unzips or takes off a shoe.
Offline | Online
Reply With Quote

lol that is so funny but so true

[timvp]

Winning is NEVER overrated, and Bill did it more than anyone else. The man cannot even wear all of his rings at once unless he unzips or takes off a shoe.

:rollin

Nice.

[slayermin]

No he's not. Only two players in history have won a title with a COMPLETE roster re-load: Big Bill and Big Fundamental.

Winning is NEVER overrated, and Bill did it more than anyone else. The man cannot even wear all of his rings at once unless he unzips or takes off a shoe.

His Boston teams reloaded with Hall of Famers and he only played on one end of the court. You throw Ben Wallace in with the guys Russell played with and Boston still wins a buttload of rings.

[Ginofan]

http://www.mailbling.com/mikerep.jpg

Love the sig Mikey! :lol

[GrandeDavid]

That's the worst analysis ever. David Robinson REVOLUTIONIZED the position in terms of his athleticism. Its not his fault he never had anything remotely near a decent NCAA support cast throughout his career until Tim Duncan came along.

Somebody with some video savvy:

please make a David Robinson montage from his rookie season through his MVP season. Watch how the man ran, played D, carried the offense, displayed an athletic grace in the pivot unbeknownst to mankind. All this without a legitimate All Star supporting cast. Hell, even Tim Duncan has AT LEAST one All Star in Manu Ginobili and a borderline All Star in Tony Parker.

Who did David have to work with? Vinny Del Negro?
An aged Chuck Person and such free agent acquisitions as Charles Smith and Vernon Maxwell!? Are you kidding me!?

[slayermin]

Admiral>Shaq>Russell

[exstatic]

His Boston teams reloaded with Hall of Famers and he only played on one end of the court. You throw Ben Wallace in with the guys Russell played with and Boston still wins a buttload of rings.


Bullshit. Most of the Boston HOF players were on the early teams. He won LONG after Sam, Cooz, and company retired. Boston had lots of good players and scorers before he got there. He MADE them HOF players by being the rock and anchor for ELEVEN TITLES IN THIRTEEN YEARS. They didn't win shit before he got there.

Ben Wallace? Are you fucking kidding? Are you fucking thirteen years old? Bill's rebounding and defense compares to Ben's like Ben's compares to Eddy Curry's. Has Ben ever averaged 20 rebounds? Bill did...for his fucking career (22.5). I also don't think that a career 15 ppg is "playing only on one end". His teammate Bob Cousy only averaged 18.4. Did he only play one end, too?

[Rick Von Braun]

Nate Thurmond and Bill Walton > David Robinson?

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

What a joke. Walton had two good seasons in his NBA career. Thurmond was a good player, but what did he ever win? Robinson was at least as good of a defender as Thurmond, but was a much better scorer.

:flipoff Rosen
Ditto. In particular Bill Walton > David Robinson it's an abolute joke.

[Kaster]

See, what did I say. Rosen is an old (alright, ancient) hack that thinks because he's been watching basketball for decades that he has a worthwhile opinion. He doesn't. His hard-on for Celtic players (Walton > Drob? McHale > Mailman? Bwahahaha) is beyond sad, as is his understanding of the governing principals of how NBA basketball is played.

[slayermin]

Bullshit. Most of the Boston HOF players were on the early teams. He won LONG after Sam, Cooz, and company retired. Boston had lots of good players and scorers before he got there. He MADE them HOF players by being the rock and anchor for ELEVEN TITLES IN THIRTEEN YEARS. They didn't win shit before he got there.

Ben Wallace? Are you fucking kidding? Are you fucking thirteen years old? Bill's rebounding and defense compares to Ben's like Ben's compares to Eddy Curry's. Has Ben ever averaged 20 rebounds? Bill did...for his fucking career (22.5). I also don't think that a career 15 ppg is "playing only on one end". His teammate Bob Cousy only averaged 18.4. Did he only play one end, too?

He shot 44% from the field for his career. He shot 56% from the line. He does have the assists but christ, you take away the easy putbacks and he was probably a 40% shooter. Was Russell the greatest rebounder the game has ever seen? Yeah. Was he the best shotblocker? Probably. Was he the best defensive center ever? Debatable.

WAS HE THE BEST CENTER OF ALL TIME? HELL Naww!

My top five:
Kareem
Wilt
Hakeem
Admiral
Shaq

[Mark in Austin]

11 rings in 13 years. scoreboard, in a big way.

If I could pick any center from any era to start my team with, it would be Russell.

[Solid D]

I'm not sure if you have selective memory, Slayermin, or what (?). I'm assuming you are old enough to have watched Bill Russell to make a statement like that (true?).

I must agree with Exstatic. Russell was the man, the ultimate warrior in the post. He actually made people want to quit, the way he dominated. The only guy I've seen as quick on reaction to defending and blocking shots was David Robinson. Russell was tougher-minded than David was but both were extremely intelligent players.

I never got to see Mikan...before my time. I have seen Russell play in person in Boston Garden. I have seen Wilt play in person. Nate Thurmond, Zelmo Beatty, Walt Bellamy, Bob Lanier, Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel, Wes Unseld, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and also when he was Lew Alcindor, Akeem/Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaq, and of course David. All of these guys first-hand at the arenas.

Russell was the greatest center I ever saw play the game of basketball.

[Brutalis]

You don't mention the all time best centers without David Robinson.

Ewing? Where?

Walton top 10?

Hairdoo's.

[whottt]

Why are you guys so suprised David got crapped on? It's happened to him his entire career...even many Spurs fans do it.

It's just classic that David Robinson has the soft label...he was less soft than any player I can think of.

#1. His primary way of scoring was getting fouled.

#2. Instead of getting cushy college prep career...he was in the Military doing Officer training which is a hell of a lot tougher than any College is going to be(even in Naval Academy the Officers have tougher training requirement than the enlisted do).

#3. He represnted Team USA more than any other player in history...a record 8 fucking times. And the last time he did he played through a damn hernia that ended his career as a SuperStar.

People are fucking stupid.

Yeah he wasn't clutch...but he wasn't a choker either...


Oh well...at least it didn't happen to Duncan...If we hadn't won the title this year people would have said Duncan couldn't win without Drob...then they would have said Drob couldn't win without Duncan...they'd switch it around.

And Drob used to kick Shaq and Hakeem's ass..Hakeem got him one time in the playoffs...with a defending champion team comprised of superclutch role players and one of the NBA's 50 greatest guards.


The absolute fucking joke is putting George Mikahn over Drob...he played in a pre integrated league...don't even fucking try and tell me Drob wouldn't have destroyed that dude.

I guess these fools still believe in Santa Clause too.


The other joke is everyone always acting like Bill Russell beat Wilt because Wilt would choke or was more of a winner or something...

Has anyone ever looked at Russell's post seasons stats? They suck...

And he's as bad a FT shooter as Wilt was.


The best Center in NBA history was Wilt Chamberlain...

The best all around Centers in NBA history were Kareem, Hakeem, and Drob.

Then Shaq...but he was something different...but he wasn't as good all around...he wasn't good on D. And this was proved any time someone forced him to play it.

Don't give me this dominant crap...Drob's career scoring high is higher than Shq's and Drob was dishing out nearly 5 assists per game while he was doing it.

[Horry For 3!]

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/2336/charleyrosen3tg.jpg
That old ass, yellow teeth, ugly ass old man doesn't know shit about basketball. He called Drob soft, he should see how soft his man titties are. How tha fuck would anyone listen to an ugly ass old man like him? :lmao

[whottt]

I just want to see one of these cocksuckers carry the freaking Naval Academy to the Round of 8 in the NCAA tournament...

[slayermin]

Russell was a great player but he had the keys to the Ferrari.

Auerbach was the genius behind the Celtics. If it wasn't Russell, it could have been another talented big man. The Celtics had depth at every position with intelligent guys that played their roles. After doing a little research on Auerbach, I feel like the system in Boston was their key to victory, not Russell.

Anyway, I would take the Admiral or Jabbar over Russell anyday, from here to eternity.

[Mark in Austin]

Russell won a title as a player-coach after Auerbach retired - it's not Auerbach that got them eleven rings in thirteen years all by himself.

As far as the system goes - systems don't win championships. Players do.

[whottt]

Yeah...Russell was so good the Celtics won a title a few years after he was gone...with the residual HOF'ers left over from his last season.

[jochhejaam]

I would put David somewhere in the top 4 of all time along with Russell, Chamberlain and FatShaq. As mentioned in an earlier post David has to be #1 in character.

As for Walton, he ended up averaging only 13.3 ppg for his career. True, he had an unfortunate injury but you don't rate the all time best centers based on what could have been.

[GhostofAlfrederickHughes]

Somehow, I think if the Admiral, in the prime of his career, had Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, etc. as his supporting cast (instead of say, Vinny del Negro and Frank Brickowski), he might have not been tagged 'too soft to win.'

Anyway, screw Rosen. REAL fans know Robinson's value---after all, without Robinson, would the Spurs even have been in San Antonio to draft Duncan?

[HomerSimpson]

I know stupid and Rosen is stupid.

[GrandeDavid]

I just want to see one of these cocksuckers carry the freaking Naval Academy to the Round of 8 in the NCAA tournament...

Damn good point!

[1Parker1]

I think Shaq would've been able to win without Kobe...


You are joking, right? Kobe was a Spurs killer during their 3peat run. Without Kobe hitting so many clutch shots to save Shaq's ass after so many botched missed FT's.....I can easily see the Spurs advancing over the Lakers all those years. No doubt Shaq can give you 20+ and 12+ on a nightly basis in his prime. Yet, people forget that he's not that great of a defender, he is a horrendous FT shooter who often chokes at the line in important games, and he NEEDS an natural shooter to be sucessfull...see Hardaway, Kobe, and now Wade.

Shaq would never be able to lead his team to the championship by himself.

[ambchang]

I got a good chuckle out of this list.
I thought it has been pretty well established that the top three centres of all time is
Russeell, Wilt and Jabbar, in whichever order you prefer.
Then #4 is usually Olajuwon. The list then opens wide open, but the candidates are usually Shaq (extremely overrated imho, but still a top ten centre), Robinson and Moses Malone, again, in any order you prefer.
Then comes Ewing, Thurmond, Unseld, Walton, Mikan and the rest.
The comment about Shaq having the best post moves outside of McHale is ignorant. Hakeem Olajuwon? Tim Duncan? Wilt Chamberlain? Jabbar?
And I can never understand the Robinson is soft comments? How do you figure he averaged 12 rpg and 3bpg over his career? By avoiding contact? Where does all the fouls come from? I wonder have these "experts" have even watched him play, rather just base his toughness on how well-mannered he is on those interviews.

[ambchang]

And another thing, why did the caption say Robinson didn't make the top 10 all time, when the list was only 8?
I also managed to read some of his other lists, and really laughed my head off.
1) He rated Lenny Wilkens, Dennis Johnson and Ralph Beard (who?) over Isiah Thomas and Bob Cousy.
2) He called Bird an inconsistent shooter
3) He had Rick Barry over Elgin Baylor, after he consistently talked about defense being so important, and excluded Alex English and Bernard King because they are "one-dimensional, defenseless scorers"
4) He said Ralph Beard was magnificent in his two years in the league, therefore warranting a top 8 selection. Then he just didn't mention Maurice Stokes at all. Double standards?
5) He ignores players of high regard with the "he doesn't play defense" slight, and yet ranked Shaquille O'Neal at #3 over Wilt, Robinson and Malone. I mean, if he cares so much about defense, why they hell was Rick Barry even on the list?
6) He rates players who played for Phil Jackson unusually high. Rodman over Barkley? Pippen over Dr. J? Shaq over Wilt?
The lists are just internally inconsistent. I am sure you can find more.

[pache100]

Already doubting....


#3 — SHAQUILLE O'NEAL

His Bigness (including his mouth, girth, intelligence, sense of humor and accomplishments) is still on the scene. For sure, he's slow off the floor, a limited rebounder, and a mostly stationary defender — but Shaq remains one of the best ever. Aside from Kevin McHale, Shaq has more moves at his disposal in the pivot than anyone else in the record book.

You nearly lost me at this point...


#8 — BILL WALTON.

At this point I was gone...


# David Robinson — too soft and too clutchless to succeed without being carried by Tim Duncan.

What a load of horse manure! The whole article, but particularly those three points. You just lost any credibility you had with me.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Is this what passes for basketball knowledge? If all it takes is being 90 and picking names out of a hat I think that I've figured out what I'm going to do with my retirement years. Including Shaq in the top ten is a semi-forgiveable defense. His career scoring stats are fairly impressive and a less than intelligent sort might buy into the hype (but "more move in the pivot than McHale? That would mean that McHale couldn't even shove his way into the paint, take three steps, run some one over, and dunk the ball. That's his only move.) But Walton? He was certainly an incredible college player but to include him ahead of Robinson, Ewing, or even Luc Longley is just plain ignorant.

[cmc$purs]

:cuss :idiot

[SenorSpur]

I've got issues with this guy not giving enough kudos to (two-time NBA MVP) and perennial rebounding champion - Moses Malone and, of course DRob.

Philly would not have won a title had they not traded for Malone. He single-handedly put them over the top in 1983. Sure he wasn't a defensive gem, but no one worked the glass harder against bigger opponents that Malone.

Big Dave was a consistent 20-10 performer and, aside from Wilt, is the only other center to win a blocked shot title, a rebounding title and a scoring title during his career. Of course, he became an NBA champion after Duncan arrived - but 2 titles nonetheless. He selflessly "stepped back" to allow Duncan to move to the forefront on offense. Dave's raw athletic ability has never been seen before and will never be seen again at the position. He constantly beat his man up and down the court and his defensive prowess rivaled that of both Russell and Hakeem. Definite top 7 selection.

It's already been mentioned here that Dave's supporting cast was sub-par during most of his career. Soft? Hell no.

Also, how could he have left off another dominant center. The all-time leader in NBA field-goal percentage (60%), a dominant rebounder and one of the strongest players ever to control the paint - former Spur Artis Gilmore. I'm thinking Artis has be at least honorably mentioned.

[Jimcs50]

I would agree with the Top 6, then DRob goes to 7.

[tekdragon]

I love hearing people dis Charley Rosen. It's hilarious to me to hear people say he doesn't know anything about basketball. He's written more books on basketball than most people on this forum have read in their entire lives.

Not that I agree with the list exactly, but the guy knows basketball, and he knows basketball history.

I know, I know, Dave should be number one on this list based on his character alone. Of course, if you weren't a Spurs fan, or if Dave played his whole career for the Lakers, everyone on this forum would label him soft. Every one of you. Just like everyone on this forum refuses to give Shaq the credit he deserves. Of course, if Shaq played his whole career in San Antonio, every last person on this forum would be outraged that he's not number one.

But that doesn't mean I think Dave should be below Bill Walton. I'm a Spurs fan, too.

[insert San Antonio native inferiority complex here]

[Obi wan Ginobili]

I cant believe walton, russel, MIKAN etc were put in front of Drob...

PLEASE....

[tekdragon]

You can't believe Russell was ranked ahead of Robinson? You know that's Bill Russell, and not Byron Russell, right?

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I love hearing people dis Charley Rosen. It's hilarious to me to hear people say he doesn't know anything about basketball. He's written more books on basketball than most people on this forum have read in their entire lives.

Not that I agree with the list exactly, but the guy knows basketball, and he knows basketball history.

I know, I know, Dave should be number one on this list based on his character alone. Of course, if you weren't a Spurs fan, or if Dave played his whole career for the Lakers, everyone on this forum would label him soft. Every one of you. Just like everyone on this forum refuses to give Shaq the credit he deserves. Of course, if Shaq played his whole career in San Antonio, every last person on this forum would be outraged that he's not number one.

But that doesn't mean I think Dave should be below Bill Walton. I'm a Spurs fan, too.

[insert San Antonio native inferiority complex here]


I'm sure that Rosen may know a thing or two about basketball but if you were to read that article without knowing the author would you honestly think that the guy had a fully functioning brain? He lists a number of problems with Shaq and then puts him at number 3? He then gushes about all that Hakeem did (essentially everything that he knocks Shaq for not doing) but ranks him 6th because he didn't pass well or dribble through traffic (because those are hallmarks of Shaq's game?) On top of that he refers to Shaq's enormous list of pivot moves but doesn't list a single one, but runs of a litany things that Hakeem could do. And the Walton thing is just fucking ridiculous.

Personally I don't like him putting Mikan on the list. Yes he was spectacular in his day but that was before the rules that just about every other center played on the list played in. I say make him an honorable mention or throw an asterisk in there, but realistically Mikan in his prime would probably have gotten tossed around pretty hard by most of the guys on the list.

[Obi wan Ginobili]

Dennis Rodman was better than Bill Russell and would have averaged more rebounds, and held Chamberlain to fewer points.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I have come to accept the notion that not many people respect David Robinson as a player. All throughtout his career I, including all of you, have been defending him to the rest of the country concerning the perception mentioned in the article. David Robinson was an all time great and we were fortunate enough that he played for the Spurs. Now Tim is fighting certain perceptions that to me seem made up as they go along. The latest being "well he never won without David Robinson", or "he needs to play with more heart".. you know the blather. The way I see it is as long as we can add a couple of more banners to the rafters the nay sayers can have their say..we just don't have to agree with them..

[Extra Stout]

Dennis Rodman was better than Bill Russell and would have averaged more rebounds, and held Chamberlain to fewer points.Astounding.

You realize that if the NBA had kept statistics on blocks back then, Russell some years would have averaged over 8 a game?

[ambchang]

I love hearing people dis Charley Rosen. It's hilarious to me to hear people say he doesn't know anything about basketball. He's written more books on basketball than most people on this forum have read in their entire lives.

Not that I agree with the list exactly, but the guy knows basketball, and he knows basketball history.

I know, I know, Dave should be number one on this list based on his character alone. Of course, if you weren't a Spurs fan, or if Dave played his whole career for the Lakers, everyone on this forum would label him soft. Every one of you. Just like everyone on this forum refuses to give Shaq the credit he deserves. Of course, if Shaq played his whole career in San Antonio, every last person on this forum would be outraged that he's not number one.

But that doesn't mean I think Dave should be below Bill Walton. I'm a Spurs fan, too.

Having written a lot of books about basketball does not = strong basketball knowledge. Sam Smith?
Then there are the whole ESPN crew who makes their living off basketball, but their basketball knowledge is very very suspectible.
Even a player like Bill Walton, basketball consumed his entire adult life, and look at his basketball knowledge.
I am not dismissing the basketball knowledge of Rosen, but I am calling the inconsistencies in his lists, and putting in obvious biases in the rankings.

[Spurologist]

Dennis Rodman was better than Bill Russell and would have averaged more rebounds, and held Chamberlain to fewer points.

Please stop now. Bill Russel is probably the best defensive center of all time and has 11 titles. :wow. Chamberlain scored 100 POINTS. Sorry, there's no way Rodman could have checked him. Ok maybe Wilt scores 50 on him to be nice.

How come Dan Issel is always left off this list. He should be at least considered to be in the top 10. He averaged 34 and 13 in his last year in college and averaged 20+ points in the nba. ABA: six time all star, aba champion, rookie of the year.

[Obi wan Ginobili]

Watch the game when Russel was playing.

It goes about 5 miles an hour.

You put Russel in a game today in his prime and he would average 13 and 8.

[Spurminator]

When you compare players historically, you have to compare them in the context of the era in which they played. Most bigmen today could probably go back in time and whoop up on Bill Russell, but that's not really fair to compare them that way. If Shaq was born in 1940, he wouldn't have had access to the kind of weight training equipment/suppliments/etc. that players have access to now. Likewise, if Russell had been born in 1975, he would have all of that at his disposal.

Players are historically ranked according to their status against other players in an even playing field.

As for Mikan, I do think it's fair to say he might not have been as elite if the league had been integrated... But I still think he would have been one of the greatest centers of all time and deserves recognition on this list.

[tekdragon]

Ugh.

You're right. Charley Rosen is an idiot. David was the best center of all time. Dennis Rodman would have absolutely dominated Bill Russell and Wilt at the same time, while averaging 30 rebounds and 14 blocks a game.

I'll try to remember to not to participate in your Manu>Jordan thread.

[FoxMulder]

1-Shaq
2-Kareem
3-DRob
4-Hakeem
5-Moses Malone
6-Ewing

[tekdragon]

FM-

Russell doesn't even make your top 6? He's not even above Patrick Freaking Ewing and Moses Malone?

David Robinson over Hakeem?

Why do I keep coming back into this thread?

:bang

[FoxMulder]

Sorry my man.... i´m still in the 80's :angel :lol

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

FM-

Russell doesn't even make your top 6? He's not even above Patrick Freaking Ewing and Moses Malone?

David Robinson over Hakeem?

Why do I keep coming back into this thread?

:bang

For as little as I may have agreed with your earlier post in this thread I have to agree on this one. DRob will always be my favorite center, but I think Hakeem was more talented. A big part of Dave's game was that he was an absolute athletic freak show, while I think Hakeem's game was more cerebral and skill based. It breaks my heart to say it, but it's true.

[FoxMulder]

For as little as I may have agreed with your earlier post in this thread I have to agree on this one. DRob will always be my favorite center, but I think Hakeem was more talented. A big part of Dave's game was that he was an absolute athletic freak show, while I think Hakeem's game was more cerebral and skill based. It breaks my heart to say it, but it's true.

I think is a matter of taste... to me David was and is great he made an unbelievable impact in the franchise... Hakeem always had a team around... David, not always...

Overall I feel more empathy to DRob than Hakeem, I must say Hakeem was more skilled in a lot of game´s aspects... and win more too...

But I liked more DRob...

[HB22inSA]

Here we go with the "poor little San Antonio gets no respect" thing.

It's one man's opinion.

Don't get so worked up about it.

[FoxMulder]

I know Hakeem was better... but I liked more Drob...
Maybe blondes are funnier... but I like brunnettes..
;)

[Obi wan Ginobili]

I never said Drob was better than Shaq or Hakeem or Wilt or Jabbar.

All the weight training in the world doesn't get Russel to be more than 6'9"

Why is it easier to dismiss Mikan than it is Russel?

Mikan was more Dominant in his Era than Russel ever was.

They had to change several rules after he started playing the game.

He won 5 championships...


But... can you count championships REALLY from that era?

I mean... for most of the Celtics there were only what? EIGHT teams?

[slayermin]

Please stop now. Bill Russel is probably the best defensive center of all time and has 11 titles. :wow.

People act like he was the sole reason they won all 11 titles. No doubt he was the best player on most of those teams and his contribution cannot be measured in stats. But christ, the man had some help.

Didn't he play with like 10 hall of famers throughout his career?

[tekdragon]

But... can you count championships REALLY from that era?

I mean... for most of the Celtics there were only what? EIGHT teams?

You do make an excellent point here. Still...eleven is a whole shitload of rings, in any era in any sport.

As far as the Dave vs. Dream thing...I hate to say it, and I've just come to accept it ten years later....but when you look at that series (1995), they were pretty much left to play head-to-head, and...well...Dave got dominated. On both ends. Damn. It hurts just thinking about that. I remember going outside after the game to try to compose myself. It was a bitter pill to swallow. A bitter, jagged, poisonous, broken-glass pill. Hakeem was the man. It was one of the greatest all-time performances by a center when it mattered most, against one of the best centers ever. A matchup for the ages, to be sure...it would have been really nice to see Big Dave come out on top of that one. Living in Houston, Rockets fans throw that one in my face all day. Not much I can say about it, except "Yeah. Hakeem showed up with huge nuts in that series."

David was a great player, a great leader, and an unmatched physical specimen. He just didn't have that killer instinct that the great ones have. I know most Spurs fans will never accept that (he did save an entire franchise, something few players have done, and he did put aside his own ego for the sake of the team, something very few of the greats would ever even consider), but he wasn't the greatest of all time. That was Russell. Then Jabbar. Then Wilt/Shaq, depending on your personal preference. I'd say Hakeem after that. Beyond that is totally debatable, but don't discount Bill Walton's championship year...that was one of the greatest performances all-time. He single-handedly won that trophy. Look at his roster:

PORTLAND TRAIL BLAZERS
3 Herm Gilliam
10 Corky Calhoun
13 Dave Twardzik
14 Lionel Hollins
15 Larry Steele
16 Johnny Davis
20 Maurice Lucas
22 Clyde Mayes
30 Bob Gross
32 Bill Walton
34 Robin Jones
36 Lloyd Neal
42 Wally Walker

I don't think David ever had a team that bad. Talk about winning without much help. He was a monster that year. It was Dr. Jack's system that allowed them to be so successful with the talent they had...but make no mistake: Walton was the talent they had. He played the game the right way. No egos, no "just give me the damn ball"...just hard work and intelligent play.

[Obi wan Ginobili]

Im not saying Dave was better than Dream... but We played Dream straight up and they double and trippled David with guys Like Horry (who is going to be a hall of famer himself)

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

David was a great player, a great leader, and an unmatched physical specimen. He just didn't have that killer instinct that the great ones have. I know most Spurs fans will never accept that (he did save an entire franchise, something few players have done, and he did put aside his own ego for the sake of the team, something very few of the greats would ever even consider), but he wasn't the greatest of all time.

That's something I've always wondered about. He may have lacked the edge or grit or killer instinct that some of the other greats did, but I wonder if he had had that would he have been willing to step aside for Duncan?

[tekdragon]

Lots of people scoff at the idea of Horry as a HOF'er since he's never been an elite or dominant player...

...but I'm on board for that. Few players in the history of the league have made such an impact when it mattered most. The ones that have...well...they're Hall of Famer's, aren't they?

[Obi wan Ginobili]

He's been a role player on 6 championship teams... Some of the Celtics guys did LESS than he has already..

[FilSpursFan]

Ditto. In particular Bill Walton > David Robinson it's an abolute joke.

Bill Walton = :smokin :drunk <<<< David Robinson = :angel

[jochhejaam]

Artis Gilmore who played for the Spurs for a few years should have been mentioned. He averaged 19 pts and 12 rbds over his career.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html

[Solid D]

Russell was the only constant in those 11 championships. Havlicek joined the Celts 3 or 4 years after the first championship (as a 6th man the first few years). Havlicek and Russell were the guys who drove the other players to that extra level. When Russell and Havlicek played together, they were similar to what Tim and Ginobili gives the Spurs today from an intensity and will-to-win standpoint. David was closer to what Russell was in talent, but he didn't have quite the winning intensity that Tim seems to have.

By the way, Bill Walton most certainly had a talented, defensive-minded crew around him. Mo Lucas was an All-Star and was a mean, fierce and dominating 4-man. They had terrific perimeter defenders in Lionel Hollins and Bobby Gross. This 1977 team was very similar to how the Spurs play today.

[exstatic]

:lol People act like all of the Celtics showed up at once. Guess what? They were already a good team, but hadn't won anything. They had a SIX time all star in Ed McCauley at center. They didn't even think twice about trading him for the #2 overall pick in the 1956 draft (St Louis Hawks) to nab Russell. That bought the Hawks a title in 1958...and the Celtics a dynasty. Before that trade, the Celtics were the Suns, a guard oriented fill it up team that couldn't stop a HS team. After? Champions for 11 out of 13 years. Figure it out.

[DieMrBond]

My take on the list, was that apart from being a top 10 with only 8 on the list (???) is that he, just like usual, got it mostly wrong.

To me, the top 3 were without doubt Russell, Wilt, Kareem. Russell was greater than wilt, because of their head to head record. Kareem was also better than Wilt, based mainly upon the winning side of his game - Wilt, while great didnt win as much as Kareem did. So thats that one sorted. Russell, Kareem, Wilt.

Okay, next up would be Hakeem - Hakeem beat Shaq fairly easily, and as much as i hate to say it - was better skilled than DRob, and is definitely number 4 on this list.

Drob and Shaq and Moses Malone would be the next tier - with Shaq probably 5, Drob 6, Moses 7.

Next, Mikan, Ewing, Bill Walton - With Walton 8, Ewing 9, Mikan 10.

That would be my top 10.

[jalbre6]

I just want to see one of these cocksuckers carry the freaking Naval Academy to the Round of 8 in the NCAA tournament...


Amen. Has anyone here ever read "The Last Amateurs", by John Feinstein? Annapolis is so difficult to get into that they have to find either top 10% academic players, or get recruits to go to a prep school for a year. How many serious HS basketball athletes would be willing to go to school for a year without playing so they can go play for a weak hoops program that happened to be from a rigorous military academy (Navy was in the Patroit League when the book was written, though.)?

And it was still that way in the mid-80's when David was playing. And I know about his late growth spurt, but I'm talking about his Middie teammates. Can you imagine how dominant David could have been in college if he went to any regular school, with legit D-1 talent? Fucking Rice could have won a pair of NCAA titles.

[Spurologist]

People act like he was the sole reason they won all 11 titles. No doubt he was the best player on most of those teams and his contribution cannot be measured in stats. But christ, the man had some help.

Didn't he play with like 10 hall of famers throughout his career?

ok. take russel out of the team he was playing for and tell me how many titles they would have won. They had cousy, sharman, havlicek, and sam and K.C Jones, but do you know the only one star that was there for all 11 titles. BILL RUSSEL. Case and point.

[Solid D]

The only guy who could actually leverage championships with his leadership and will to win was Hondo. The Celts actually won 2 more titles with Havlicek after Russell retired. That's why I mentioned him as special in an earlier comment.

David is a top 10 center all-time, in my view. He's in some great company led by Russell, Wilt and Kareem but he could easily rank in the 5th - 10th list.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50 points a game in a season. He averaged 27 rebounds per game one season. He shot 73% from the field one season. He scored 100 points in a game. In another he pulled down 50 rebounds.

His statline for his career was 30 22 4.

You can talk all day long about how you didnt like his approach to the game but he was a man that could do pretty much whatever he wanted individually on the court.

The man with the exception of a couple of years with the Lakers he had no talent to work with. Despite this he took the Warriors to the finals and won the finals with Philadelphia.

Red Auerbach put together some formidable teams to throw against him and triumphed but this is an evaluation of individual performance not team. After Chamberlain left the Warriors their team went to the crapper. It took the Lakers 5 years and Jabbar to get back to the playoffs.

Noone will ever score 100 points again. Noone will grab 50 rebounds in a game. Hell, noone will even come close.

The Celtics dynasty in the 60s is the greatest team of all time but Chamberlain is the best player to play the game.

[SpurYank]

I've been following basketball since before Wilt came to the pros. I saw the battles between the Celtics, with Russell, Cousy, Satch Sanders, Loscutoff (who only came into the game to hurt people) and the Hawks when the Hawks had Pettit, Martin, Lovelett, others. I followed Wilt's career in Philadelphia. Saw Walton in his prime at UCLA, the Lakers, even with the Celtics. Russell, Wilt, Walton, even Thurmond, , would have more than they could handle with the likes of Shaquille, Olajuwon, Robinson. and the very agile, fleet 4s and 5s of today. One simply cannot compare them. The older players are like oranges, to the more recent apples. People who write to judge and compare do a disservice to those they don't rate as high as the others.

[SpurYank]

For whatever this person's opinion is worth, there is one aspect of the game that one player stood out above all the rest, in passing and assists, and that was Bill Walton. No, I don't care much for his commenting, but one can't deny what he was good at.

[Solid D]

In comparing lists of "the greatest x", whatever that may be in sports, you still have to look at the level, conditions, styles and any rules or what was allowed by officials during that particular era. There's no other way to compare them, really.

Yes, the Big O and Jerry West were rt. hand dominant on their dribbling, but they were the greatest in their time and conditions. A cross-over dribble of today would have been whistled for carrying the ball back in the 60s.

Babe Ruth is considered one of the greatest baseball players to ever hold a bat or wear a glove...but insert him as he was in his greatest years into today's game, and he may not be anything but a DH. It's hard to say...thus you can only really compare them with how they performed in the conditions they played in.

[alamo50]

# David Robinson — too soft and too clutchless to succeed without being carried by Tim Duncan.


Carried by Duncan?

:lol

Not even gonna comment on the other 2 failures in that one sentence.
At least he spelled David's name correct.