Who is the greatest Finals performer of all-time?

[AchillesHeel]

Ok so we have all these endless discussions about how badly prime MJ would have spanked today's league and how overrated Kirby is. But what I wanna know is: Who's the greatest Finals performer in NBA history?

What I'm obviously looking at are big shots, huge scoring stretches and stats. So obviously Kirby is out of the question as his stats are medicore and he doesn't have any big moments or a game for the ages (he had a shot in his last Finals game vs the celtics but he shot 6-24 and passed it to Artest for the huge shot).

Now, my hatred aside let's look at some candidates:

1) Michael Jordan
http://chasing23.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Jordan-vs-Utah2.jpg

The most obvious pick, I don't think there's an NBA fan that hasn't seen or at least heard of his big shot vs the Jazz in 98 to win the series. In his career he had the chance to take part in 6 Finals and he managed to win every single one of them while dominating 5 out of 6 series and playing above-average in 96 vs the Sonics(his worst Finals series matches Kirby's 2nd best in 2009). This man did things none of us thought were possible, he's obviously regarded as the GOAT and it's hard to believe anyone will ever surpass him as the margin of error is slim. You lose a Finals series and you're not worthy. You need to win multiple in a row to show your dominance. You need to be the best player on your team and you have to spank many teams on the road to the big stage. You never allow a Game 7.

To put things in perspective Tim Duncan was close to doing what Michael had done in the past. He had won 4 rings and lost 0, he was close in terms of winning as many as Michael without a single series loss and he was 28 seconds away from his 5th championship, while Ray Allen and Lebron were busy giving spurfans the biggest bukkake they'll ever recieve he was on the bench watching, kinda like me on a lonely friday night, browsing redtube.

Leaving my porn addiction aside, MJ's finals stats are impressive and he never had a bad series, his worst was averaging 27 points and shooting close to 42 percent from the field, for most players that would be impressive and in some cases dominant. It was not a dominant performance but you wouldn't kill the man either. You take the W's and you give him the FMVP and you move along. Here are his Finals averages



YEAR
Opponent
G
MPG
FG%
3P%
FT%
ORB
DRB
RPG
APG
SPG
BPG
TO
PF
PPG



1990-91
Lakers
5
44.0
.558
.500
.848
1.6
5.0
6.6
11.4
2.8
1.40
3.6
3.6
31.2


1991-92
Trail Blazers
6
42.3
.526
.429
.891
1.0
3.8
4.8
6.5
1.7
0.33
2.0
3.5
35.8


1992-93
Suns
6
45.7
.508
.400
.694
2.5
6.0
8.5
6.3
1.7
0.67
2.7
3.3
41.0


1995-96
Supersonics
6
42.0
.415
.316
.836
1.7
3.7
5.3
4.2
1.7
0.17
3.0
2.8
27.3


1996-97
Jazz
6
42.7
.456
.320
.764
1.5
5.5
7.0
6.0
1.2
0.83
2.2
2.3
32.3


1997-98
Jazz
6
41.7
.427
.308
.814
1.5
2.5
4.0
2.3
1.8
0.67
1.7
2.2
33.5


Finals

5.8
43.0
.481
.368
.806
1.8
4.4
6.0
6.0
1.8
0.66
2.4
2.9
33.6



I feel like I don't have to list any other players. If any of you have a better candidate, holla at ya boy.

[RsxPiimp]

:lol "never had a bad series"

:lol

[AchillesHeel]

:lol "never had a bad series"

:lol

We're talking about the NBA Finals, Jordan's worst series was 27 ppg on 41,5% FG

To put things in perspective, here's Kirby and Lebron Finals averages (Lebron missing this year's Finals but this is the latest image I could find)

http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/article/media_slots/photos/000/918/091/JJB_crop_exact.png?w=650&h=432&q=85

Lebron did average 25 10 and 7 on 44,5% FG this year in 7 games so it boosts his averages, but still nowhere near MJ

[AchillesHeel]

Lebron needs to average around 30 ppg in a Finals to be on MJ's level in terms of averages, losing 2 series (1 sweep, other costing his team a title by playing like crap) however put him far away from MJ as far as legacies go. However, if he threepeats next season he'll go from 3rd tier (Kobe/Hakeem/Wilt) to 2nd tier (Duncan,Magic,Bird)

My 1st tier of Finals performers would be MJ,Bill,Kareem. They all won at least 6 and were impressive.

Kareem is up there because he won 6 and went to 10 Finals, very few have done that. Russell obviously because he won 11.

Finals Stats: 23.1 PPG 8.8 RPG 3.2 APG 2.0 BPG
Finals Appearances: 10
Championships: 6

[RsxPiimp]

I have the whole series in vhs tape jordan was aweful in 96. PAyton really schooled jordan defensively everytime he guarded him. even vincent askew and hersey hawkins were having success in jordan. it was actually amazing the bulls won in blowouts several times. Its was a testament to how aweful george karl coach teams are :lol

[RsxPiimp]

Imo the greatest finals performer in the modern era was shaq. minus the miami series where he was still decent his 5 prior trips were ridiculous

[Arnold Toht]

:lol dumbass only looking at finals stats

kobe did most of his work in the previous 3 rounds when Shaq was having trouble against legit western D

:lol and yet Kobe's the coat-tailer? despite carrying Shaq through the tough west and then unselfishly letting Shaq dominate the shitty east bigs? :lol. 2000-2002 Kobe has at least 2 playoffs MVPs if there was such an award


boiled down::: finals MVP is a joke award

[AchillesHeel]

I have the whole series in vhs tape jordan was aweful in 96. PAyton really schooled jordan defensively everytime he guarded him. even vincent askew and hersey hawkins were having success in jordan. it was actually amazing the bulls won in blowouts several times. Its was a testament to how aweful george karl coach teams are :lol

While Jordan struggled against Payton at the age of 33(he had been away from the NBA from 93-95 so this was his first full season back) he was good enough to beat the Sonics in 6 games. Payton apart from his defense was not that great either, he averaged 18 points on 44% shooting while only having 1.5 stls, not that impressive for someone, who averaged 2.6 stls in the regular season.

So, again, in Jordan's worst Finals series he won the FMVP and beat the opposing team in 6 games quite easily. Give me someone who is a better Finals performer than MJ.

[AchillesHeel]

:lol dumbass only looking at finals stats

kobe did most of his work in the previous 3 rounds when Shaq was having trouble against legit western D

:lol and yet Kobe's the coat-tailer? despite carrying Shaq through the tough west and then unselfishly letting Shaq dominate the shitty east bigs? :lol. 2000-2002 Kobe has at least 2 playoffs MVPs if there was such an award


boiled down::: finals MVP is a joke award

This is about the best Finals performer, I'm not talking about Finals MVP awards, I'm talking about how well you perform on the biggest stage.

MJ's worst Finals was 27 ppg on 41,5% shooting while winning his 4th ring, let's see Kirby's greatest hits:

Kirby vs Pistons

Kobe Bryant: Basic Game Log (115th Career Playoff Game to 119th Career Playoff Game)


First
Last
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS
GmSc


2004-06-06
2004-06-15
5
5
46.2
8.6
22.6
.381
0.8
4.6
.174
4.6
5.0
.920
0.4
2.4
2.8
4.4
1.8
0.6
3.6
3.0
22.6
11.6



dat 2.8 rebounds 4.4 ast while playing 46mpg

Kirby vs the Celtics in 08

This could have actually been better than MJ's worst against the Sonics had they not lost a 20 point lead on their home floor and lost by 39 in the last game of the Finals
Kobe Bryant: Basic Game Log (147th Career Playoff Game to 152nd Career Playoff Game)


First
Last
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS
GmSc


2008-06-05
2008-06-17
6
6
43.0
8.8
21.8
.405
1.5
4.7
.321
6.5
8.2
.796
1.3
3.3
4.7
5.0
2.7
0.2
3.8
3.2
25.7
16.4

[spurraider21]

:lol dumbass only looking at finals stats

kobe did most of his work in the previous 3 rounds when Shaq was having trouble against legit western D

:lol and yet Kobe's the coat-tailer? despite carrying Shaq through the tough west and then unselfishly letting Shaq dominate the shitty east bigs? :lol. 2000-2002 Kobe has at least 2 playoffs MVPs if there was such an award


boiled down::: finals MVP is a joke award
its funny because in 2000, 2001, and 2002 playoffs as a whole, Shaq was always the Lakers leading scorer (and his rebound averages were 15.4, 15.4, and 12.6 while his blocks registered at 2.4, 2.4, and 2.5 per game).

we all know in the games that mattered most (the finals) shaq came up. averaged freakin 38 and 17 in 6 games in 2000, while Kobe put up 15.6 points on 36.7% shooting :lol
in 01 Shaq averaged 33 and 16 while Kobe put up 24.6 ppg and 8 on 41.5% shooting
in 02 Shaq averaged 36 and 12 whike Kobe put up 26.8 on 51% shooting, the only time Kobe didn't shoot a shitty% in a finals series

the best was the 04 loss when Kobe was desperate for a finals MVP to validate himself.... utter disaster
Shaq shooting 63% for the series AND leading the team in scoring while only getting a total of 84 shots over 5 games because Kobe was busy scoring less points but shooting 113 shots and a pathetic 38%

so we get it, kobe's balls shrunk in the finals during the Shaq era except for 1 season, in an easy sweep. and despite your :crydefense:cry of kobe's overall playoff performance, shaq was still their leading PLAYOFF scorer in all their championship years. in fact, it was only after the 02 ring when kobe got tired of being rightfully called a 2nd banana where kobe started shooting more and became the lakers leading playoff scorer in 03 and 04, one leading to a loss to the Spurs in 6 games, and the other leading to a lopsided finals loss

so remind me which year kobe deserved playoffs mvp? :lol

:lol arnolt twat
:lol sucking cubby off

[AchillesHeel]

its funny because in 2000, 2001, and 2002 playoffs as a whole, Shaq was always the Lakers leading scorer (and his rebound averages were 15.4, 15.4, and 12.6 while his blocks registered at 2.4, 2.4, and 2.5 per game).

we all know in the games that mattered most (the finals) shaq came up. averaged freakin 38 and 17 in 6 games in 2000, while Kobe put up 15.6 points on 36.7% shooting :lol
in 01 Shaq averaged 33 and 16 while Kobe put up 24.6 ppg and 8 on 41.5% shooting
in 02 Shaq averaged 36 and 12 whike Kobe put up 26.8 on 51% shooting, the only time Kobe didn't shoot a shitty% in a finals series

the best was the 04 loss when Kobe was desperate for a finals MVP to validate himself.... utter disaster
Shaq shooting 63% for the series AND leading the team in scoring while only getting a total of 84 shots over 5 games because Kobe was busy scoring less points but shooting 113 shots and a pathetic 38%

so we get it, kobe's balls shrunk in the finals during the Shaq era except for 1 season, in an easy sweep. and despite your :crydefense:cry of kobe's overall playoff performance, shaq was still their leading PLAYOFF scorer in all their championship years. in fact, it was only after the 02 ring when kobe got tired of being rightfully called a 2nd banana where kobe started shooting more and became the lakers leading playoff scorer in 03 and 04, one leading to a loss to the Spurs in 6 games, and the other leading to a lopsided finals loss

so remind me which year kobe deserved playoffs mvp? :lol

Thank you. I think he loves going off-topic and talking about Kobe in every thread to avoid the subject at hand. This is not about Kobe nor the Lakers nor Shaq nor the first 3 playoff rounds. This is about the Finals and the facts surrounding certain players. Kobe Bryant averaged a respectable 25 5 and 5 in his 37 Finals games, he won 5 out of 7 and is right there in the 3rd tier with Hakeem and Wilt. An impressive feat nonetheless.

Michael never needed a big man like Shaq to demand double/triple teams so he could feed off wide open looks, he always created for himself and his teammates, he did have Pippen to help him on both ends but he won a DPOY and led the league in steals himself. He was arguably(still is) the greatest perimeter defender of all-time. Kirby is nowhere near that category despite being a great man-to-man defender.

So, back to the topic. Is there a better Finals performer than Michael?

[whitemamba]

Im interested to know what a good shooting % is for a SG is supposed to be.. Its much harder for kobe to score than it is for shaq, shaq caught the ball no further than 3 feet from the basket, he outweighed, was stronger, than every person that gaurded him. So comparing Kobe to Shaq is funnier, Kobe has to rely on talent not just physical ability.

[AchillesHeel]

45% is the average imo, 47% would be above-average and 43 would be below

[spurraider21]

Im interested to know what a good shooting % is for a SG is supposed to be.. Its much harder for kobe to score than it is for shaq, shaq caught the ball no further than 3 feet from the basket, he outweighed, was stronger, than every person that gaurded him. So comparing Kobe to Shaq is funnier, Kobe has to rely on talent not just physical ability.
if guys are propping kobe up to MJ's standards, then those are the standards you go by, a guy that was a career 50% shooter from the field during his bulls years.

Kobe's top competition at the 2, D-Wade, is a career 48.9% shooter. For his career, Kobe is only 1% higher from the field from a guy like Vince Carter.

Kobe's career high for a season is 46.9. jerry west, for example is a career 47.4% shooter Oscar Robertson 48.5, George Gervin over 50%. Clyde Drexler is a career 47.2% shooter. the list goes on. kobe is the king of the volume scorers, i'll give him that

[ambchang]

:lol dumbass only looking at finals stats

kobe did most of his work in the previous 3 rounds when Shaq was having trouble against legit western D

:lol and yet Kobe's the coat-tailer? despite carrying Shaq through the tough west and then unselfishly letting Shaq dominate the shitty east bigs? :lol. 2000-2002 Kobe has at least 2 playoffs MVPs if there was such an award


boiled down::: finals MVP is a joke award

Kobe should have never won the finals MVP shooting 6-24 while MVPau carried the team. I agree that the finals MVP is a joke award.

[ambchang]

Back on topic.

Jordan is probably the one, but others to consider include:
Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan, Magic, Kareem, Bird all had great and bad series.
Worthy had a great series, so did Dumars.
Moses Malone was nuts in 1983
Isiah Thomas had a pretty good series in 90 (was up and down in 88 and decent in 89)

[D-Wade]

Far and away MJ. Wade is up there , this year's finals obviously a blemish other than gms 4 and 7. Still, he played better than LBJ in the 11 Finals. :bang

Don't get why some have Jerry West above Wade in GOAT SGs when the former was 1-9 in the finals!

[Sean Cagney]

Jordan is just ridiculous.

[Humberto]

http://sports.espn.go.com/media/nba/2003/0615/photo/g_claxton_il.jpg

or

Miami Manu
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/ac1394dbdcca6a36cbf486633b129cd813095ac3/r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/USATODAY/USATODAY/2013/06/15/1371345289000-USP-NBA-Finals-Miami-Heat-at-San-Antonio-Spurs-1306152116_4_3.jpg

[RsxPiimp]

While Jordan struggled against Payton at the age of 33(he had been away from the NBA from 93-95 so this was his first full season back) he was good enough to beat the Sonics in 6 games. Payton apart from his defense was not that great either, he averaged 18 points on 44% shooting while only having 1.5 stls, not that impressive for someone, who averaged 2.6 stls in the regular season.

So, again, in Jordan's worst Finals series he won the FMVP and beat the opposing team in 6 games quite easily. Give me someone who is a better Finals performer than MJ.
1. the struggle has nothing to do with being away from awhile. Jordan won mvp that same year so its bs to use that reasoning all of a suddenin the finals.
2. I just said shaq had a better finals imo
3. Jordan didn't beat the sonics, the sonics bench was basically non existent throughout the series

[HarlemHeat37]

Dad Killer and Shaq are the only options, tbh..they are on their own level for Finals performances, albeit against poor competition, obviously..

[Venti Quattro]

Derek Fisher

[Rogue]

professional analysis bro, the board says thank you to you for creating such an excellent thread and bringing the "decent basketball discussion" that we had longed for.

Dirk's my nominee here. He might not be the "best" performer of all time in the finals but he deserves an nomination. Dude was unarguably the best player of both teams in the game 2, 4 and 5 of the 11' finals, especially game 5 imho where he was simply god-like making almost every fucking shot he attempted. His performance slumped a bit in game 6 but thankfully our role players stepped up just in time and hammered the Heat into the coffin we made for them before they could react and fight back.

Shaq was also an ass kicker in the finals, but he hadn't won a series in the finals without a prime Kobe or a prime Wade playing alongside his fat ass, with himself being the only guy to count on, the way Dirk did in 11 and almost did in 06. He tried once while he was playing in Orlando, but miserably failed as we all know, at the hands of a team that might be the most hilarious championship winner in the NBA history.

[elmanutres]

What I'm obviously looking at are big shots, huge scoring stretches and stats. So obviously Kirby is out of the question
:lol getting straight to the chase

[AchillesHeel]

professional analysis bro, the board says thank you to you for creating such an excellent thread and bringing the "decent basketball discussion" that we had longed for.

Dirk's my nominee here. He might not be the "best" performer of all time in the finals but he deserves an nomination. Dude was unarguably the best player of both teams in the game 2, 4 and 5 of the 11' finals, especially game 5 imho where he was simply god-like making almost every fucking shot he attempted. His performance slumped a bit in game 6 but thankfully our role players stepped up just in time and hammered the Heat into the coffin we made for them before they could react and fight back.

Shaq was also an ass kicker in the finals, but he hadn't won a series in the finals without a prime Kobe or a prime Wade playing alongside his fat ass, with himself being the only guy to count on, the way Dirk did in 11 and almost did in 06. He tried once while he was playing in Orlando, but miserably failed as we all know, at the hands of a team that might be the most hilarious championship winner in the NBA history.

Thanks for the positive feedback, bro. Shaq was obviously dominant and he's up there in that 2nd tier IMO. Kirby ruined the 2004 Finals with his poor shooting and overall play, if Shaq had won 5 with 4 FMVPs I'd rank him in the Kareem/MJ tier.

While Dirk was impressive I don't think he was THAT good in the 2011 Finals, he was clutch and he was vital in the 4th quarters but in game 6 Terry carried the team for 3 quarters while Dirk was struggling and terry hit that big shot in Bron's face in game 3 or 4(I forget). Dirk was the obvious FMVP but Mavs shutting down Bron had a lot to do with their success.

[RsxPiimp]

meh, dirk is definitely out. he had one great series.

[AchillesHeel]

Yeah, Dirk only won once. Great Finals performers IMO at least win 2-3 as the FMVP.

[Kool Bob Love]

:lol dumbass only looking at finals stats

kobe did most of his work in the previous 3 rounds when Shaq was having trouble against legit western D

:lol and yet Kobe's the coat-tailer? despite carrying Shaq through the tough west and then unselfishly letting Shaq dominate the shitty east bigs? :lol. 2000-2002 Kobe has at least 2 playoffs MVPs if there was such an award


boiled down::: finals MVP is a joke award

Doesn't matter. Shaq should up when the lakers needed him the most. 1st 3 rounds are regular season games anyways.

The finals is when the lights are on.


http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/395/681/shaq_kobe_jpg_display_image.jpg?1284525462

Also no one remembers the 1st 3 rounds. NBATV is showing finals games played in the 70s. Not the poverty 1st, semi or conference games.

[Rogue]

Dirk didn't have the chance to make 3 or more appearances in the NBA finals, playing with a bunch of sorry fucks who always held him back. If you got Dirk on Spurs squad in Manu's place through the 2000s he would've been the better performer than D21 4 days in a week imho.

[lefty]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lifjn3jWAz1qhjerpo1_400.gif

[AchillesHeel]

Doesn't matter. Shaq should up when the lakers needed him the most. 1st 3 rounds are regular season games anyways.

The finals is when the lights are on.


http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/395/681/shaq_kobe_jpg_display_image.jpg?1284525462

Also no one remembers the 1st 3 rounds. NBATV is showing finals games played in the 70s. Not the poverty 1st, semi or conference games.

To be honest, some semi-wcf series are classics. Like Lakers vs Spurs in 2003 or Mavs-Lakers 2011, tbh.

[Rogue]

11' Mavs-Lakers matchup ain't classic imho. the latter just melted down meekly in front of the eventual champions, without winning even a single game in that series. Mavs-Spurs matchups have always been classic though, mostly featuring the head-to-head matchup between the two greatest power forwards of the 2000s.

[AchillesHeel]

11' Mavs-Lakers matchup ain't classic imho. the latter just melted down meekly in front of the eventual champions, without winning even a single game in that series. Mavs-Spurs matchups have always been classic though, mostly featuring the head-to-head matchup between the two greatest power forwards of the 2000s.

It was entertaining to watch, Kirby played like crap and missed an open 3 to win game 1 on the home floor after choking a double digit lead, huge blowout in game 4, watching all them 3s fall was a beautiful thing. I might just re-watch the series.