Can Kawhi Leonard's Ascension Cover for Aging Manu Ginobili in 2013-14?

[wildchild]

Yes? No?
The only thing I know for sure is that Kawhi'll do some great things for Spurs next season.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1745852-can-kawhi-leonards-ascension-cover-for-aging-manu-ginobili-in-2013-14

[mingus]

I think cover is the right word. I think he can. The type of production Manu gave before last year will be lost somewhat because some of what Manu brought is unique and can't be replicated, but I think if what we saw from Kawhi in the Finals (sepecifically the last game) can carry over then I think he'll cover for it and maybe more than that. It'll be interesting what all Kawhi can bring with added scoring/playmaking pressure. I think what we've seen from him so far is basically sneak peek. I think he's got perennial all-star/defensive team potential. Kind of hybrid of Luol Deng/Shawn Marion.

[Prime Time]

Kind of hybrid of Luol Deng/Shawn Marion.

I've always seen a hybrid of Joe Johnson/Gerald Wallace tbh. With maybe a dash of Thabo Sefolosha. Kawhi's potential is pretty unique that's for sure

[CitizenDwayne]

This depends completely on Manu's role next season.

If he accepts that he's not the player he once was, Kawhi should be able to cover him. If Turnobili keeps coming out in full force and his 3 point stroke doesn't return to form, though, no one could cover him. We shall see.

[SpurAddict561]

Kawhi's ceiling is higher than Manu's ever was, and I'm an avid Ginobili fan.

[Skull-1]

Kawhi's ceiling is higher than Manu's ever was, and I'm an avid Ginobili fan.

As am I. Agreed.



This depends completely on Manu's role next season.


If he accepts that he's not the player he once was, Kawhi should be able to cover him. If Turnobili keeps coming out in full force and his 3 point stroke doesn't return to form, though, no one could cover him. We shall see.

[hater]

No. Kawhi is not a creator, it's not in his DNA. unfortunately he could never achieve what prime Manu did. IMO Kawhi is reaching his peak, as I said before his peak is near-allstar (allstar some years) but not due to his creativity

unfortunately we don't have any playmakers in the team anymore

[BackHome]

I agree with ya....Manu is going to be our backup PG and I see many more games of 5-8 turnovers..sigh

[Skull-1]

No. Kawhi is not a creator, it's not in his DNA. unfortunately he could never achieve what prime Manu did. IMO Kawhi is reaching his peak, as I said before his peak is near-allstar (allstar some years) but not due to his creativity

unfortunately we don't have any playmakers in the team anymore


Not so fast. Leonard is a gazelle. He will learn to be a creator. Look at the man's arms for crying out loud. When he jumps even taller defenders can only swat at his elbows....way up there....

[skulls138]

Kawhi's ceiling is higher than Manu's ever was, and I'm an avid Ginobili fan.Physically yes but not intensity, creatively or ballsy wise.

[TMTTRIO]

well hopefully Manu will be used more as a player coach (especially since we've lost our assistant coaches) rather than playing a whole lot so Kawhi should be able to do that.

[Dverde]

Manu is the better offensive player in his prime. Kawhi is the better defensive player. One of Manu's problem is there is so much film on him. Everyone knows he usually goes left and he tries that around the back dribble too much. Hopefully Manu will work some new stuff into his game like Kobe did. I think the real question is if TP is going to be able to keep playing at the level he is playing. He is playing like a top 5 player the last two years. Same with Duncan staying healthy. The Spurs showed they could win a title almost without Manu entirely.

[Austin_Toros]

There seems to be a fait bit of pressure on this kid. Expectations are high.

[ElNono]

Different roles, tbh

[Dverde]

I think the expectations for Kawhi are a little too high, too. Hoping he can average 16 ppg and 8 rebounds. He needs to work on getting to the FT line more.

[ace3g]

The best thing about Kawhi's development, each year it forces defenses to take a more and more attention off the Big 3.

[hater]

Not so fast. Leonard is a gazelle. He will learn to be a creator. Look at the man's arms for crying out loud. When he jumps even taller defenders can only swat at his elbows....way up there....

disagree. Playmakers are born with that trait. If Kawhi has not shown playmaking abilities to now, he won't.

[TrainOfThought5]

He can replace Ginobilis scoring. But not his creativity or intensity.

[Richard Simmons]

disagree. Playmakers are born with that trait. If Kawhi has not shown playmaking abilities to now, he won't.

yup, if he ain't got it yet, he won't get it. this stage of the game, you don't really "learn" to be a playmaker

[Skull-1]

disagree. Playmakers are born with that trait. If Kawhi has not shown playmaking abilities to now, he won't.

He is being smart and not doing too much. Something Manu should consider.

The kid makes plays. Explosive ones. He has amazing upside if he can stay healthy.

[HemisfairArena]

I've said this before. Leonard is a decent player but my fellow Spurs fans are wayyyy overrating him. He is the 2nd coming of Sean Elliott. Nothing more. And that is not a bad thing...Sean was a great player but not a franchise player like a David Robinson, Tim Duncan,...George Gervin....and Leonard wont be either. He wont carry the franchise into the next 10 years of greatness.

[Baseline]

Really? Kawhi's ascension can replace 14.5M over the next two years?

[Skull-1]

I've said this before. Leonard is a decent player but my fellow Spurs fans are wayyyy overrating him. He is the 2nd coming of Sean Elliott. Nothing more. And that is not a bad thing...Sean was a great player but not a franchise player like a David Robinson, Tim Duncan,...George Gervin....and Leonard wont be either. He wont carry the franchise into the next 10 years of greatness.


That remains to be seen...

[therealtruth]

If Kevin Durant can develop some playmaking skills I don't see why Kawhi can't.

[cd021]

Kawhi's ceiling is higher than Manu's ever was, and I'm an avid Ginobili fan.

Thats just not true. Doing a 6 year stretch Manu had an average P.E.R of 23.08. Thats a remarkable stat. For comparison Parker had a P.E.R of 23 this season. I just don't think Kawhi can churn out that type of production.

He will be good but not that good. Manu has a top 25 P.E.R in NBA History.

[Skull-1]

Thats just not true. Doing a 6 year stretch Manu had an average P.E.R of 23.08. Thats a remarkable stat. For comparison Parker had a P.E.R of 23 this season. I just don't think Kawhi can churn out that type of production.

He will be good but not that good. Manu has a top 25 P.E.R in NBA History.


And a foul on Dirk to go with eight turnovers in Game Six. Epic fail.

[admiralsnackbar]

And a foul on Dirk to go with eight turnovers in Game Six. Epic fail.

Get over it -- we wouldn't even have been in that game if he hadn't exploded in the second half. We were down 30 points or so iirc.

[therealtruth]

Get over it -- we wouldn't even have been in that game if he hadn't exploded in the second half. We were down 30 points or so iirc.

And we wouldn't have been in that situation if Pop didn't decide to play smallball to match up.

[admiralsnackbar]

And we wouldn't have been in that situation if Pop didn't decide to play smallball to match up.

Maybe, but this thread isn't about Pop.

[barakz21]

I gotta disagree with the playmaker part. Tony didn't really have "it" in him early on in his career. But he's become a real playmaker in the recent years. Maybe not on prime Nash, prime Kidd or CP3 level, but definitely a playmaker.

[therealtruth]

I gotta disagree with the playmaker part. Tony didn't really have "it" in him early on in his career. But he's become a real playmaker in the recent years. Maybe not on prime Nash, prime Kidd or CP3 level, but definitely a playmaker.

He still misses the obvious pass sometimes or the ability to see a play before it develops.

[cd021]

And a foul on Dirk to go with eight turnovers in Game Six. Epic fail.

Or when he dropped 34 at the age of 35 in game 5 and nearly took us back to the Finals in 2012 against Harden and OKC. or when he torched Phoenix in 05' In the WCF. Or hitting the game winner in cap one of the greatest comebacks in league history after going 3-17 up to that point.

Or when he posted 20 ppg against the leagues best perimeter defender (Tony Allen) while playing with a broken arm in 2011

F.Y.I even after he fouled Dirk and Dirk tied the game. Duncan who had 37 missed a game winner to end regulation and we also had 5 minutes of OT to get the job done. We came up short not just Manu.

[cd021]

I think the expectations for Kawhi are a little too high, too. Hoping he can average 16 ppg and 8 rebounds. He needs to work on getting to the FT line more.

That would be great for the Spurs and a realistic goal.

[Skull-1]

Or when he dropped 34 at the age of 35 in game 5 and nearly took us back to the Finals in 2012 against Harden and OKC. or when he torched Phoenix in 05' In the WCF. Or hitting the game winner in cap one of the greatest comebacks in league history after going 3-17 up to that point.

Or when he posted 20 ppg against the leagues best perimeter defender (Tony Allen) while playing with a broken arm in 2011

F.Y.I even after he fouled Dirk and Dirk tied the game. Duncan who had 37 missed a game winner to end regulation and we also had 5 minutes of OT to get the job done. We came up short not just Manu.

"Nearly..."

That sums up Manu over the last few years.

He has been awful but because he has one good game here or there you manutards strut and preen. We don't need ANY great games from him. What we need are NO HORRIBLE games where he totally destroys all the good the rest of the team has done. We don't have the margin to overcome his stupid plays and bad decisions.

If Manu had broken his ankle in Game 1 we are champs. That simple.

THE GUY COULDN'T EVEN DRIBBLE IN GAME TWO FOR GAWD'S SAKE.

[SpurSwag]

I'm a huge ginobili fan, and while I don't think he'll be his prime self next year, I'm expecting a major bounce back. I really like that he's taking ttime off this summer, and I think he'll be close to the form he was a couple years ago. With that being said, I really hope kawhi gets the green light to create. In the games without the big 3, kawhi really showed he could create and he dropped something in the high 20's with lots of midrange jumpers. Like someone said, I'm looking for him to average around 16 and 8

[wildchild]

I think cover is the right word. I think he can.
Manu 11.9 and 3.4 reb last season (best season 2007-08 19.5 and 4.8) Like the guys said, 16 and 8 from Leonard this year, sounds really good.



I gotta disagree with the playmaker part. Tony didn't really have "it" in him early on in his career. But he's become a real playmaker in the recent years. Maybe not on prime Nash, prime Kidd or CP3 level, but definitely a playmaker.

I couldn't agree more. Kawhi's a willing passer but with Tony and Manu in the team, Spurs doesn't require him to show it very often. Pop said that he'll calling plays for him and with these offensive plays Kawhi'll start to develop more creativity with his dribbling and passing.

[barakz21]

Manu 11.9 and 3.4 reb last season (best season 2007-08 19.5 and 4.8) Like the guys said, 16 and 8 from Leonard this year, sounds really good.




I couldn't agree more. Kawhi's a willing passer but with Tony and Manu in the team, Spurs doesn't require him to show it very often. Pop said that he'll calling plays for him and with these offensive plays Kawhi'll start to develop more creativity with his dribbling and passing.

I know, right? Aside from being a willing passer, Kawhi's shown the ability to make smart passes. Besides, he knows how to find good spots to be on the end of good passes. If he can do that, I don't see any reason why he can't on the passing end of those plays.

[DMC]

No. If you're going to have Manu on the floor turning the ball over because his ego cannot accept the fact that his passes aren't as fluid or crisp as they once were, or that he's become predictable because of his limitations, Leonard's prowess isn't going to overcome that. If you have Manu chucking up bricks because he's hit some big shots over his career, and even though his 3pt% is horrid, then Leonard's long reach isn't going to compensate for that.

Basically, the Spurs won't be able to compensate for giving a liability decent minutes in big situations. Our confirmation bias causes us to instantly say "see I told you so" when Manu hits that game winner, and we ignore the fact that we were that close because Manu turned the ball over 8 times and often during critical plays. Love the guy, but he's gotta go.

Since he's been contemplating retirement because he hates the thought of rehab (and let's be honest, he knows his game is basically gone), and since even at his peak his effectiveness was largely due to his basketball IQ and craftiness, even a good rehab doesn't get him back to where the Spurs need him to be. He's lost his mental edge more than his physical one. Mentally he was capable of reading the defense and making eye popping plays that most of us couldn't have predicted. Now he's trying to make the same plays but he cannot because he cannot read the defenses. He gets picked by someone cheating into the passing lanes and yet he doesn't compensate by narrowing the passing lane mentally. He just does it again and gets the same result. It's about making decisions and he hasn't adjusted his game mentally to compensate for his age (Unlike Tim).

Right now Manu is a ticket selling device, not much else. If the Spurs are legit contenders this year (they might end up that way if they get as fortunate as they did last season with the matchups), having Manu playing big minutes would basically equate to them choosing ticket sales over success on the court. I cannot say I blame them though. Even when Dallas won the ring, they couldn't justify keeping guys together. Unless you're big marketish, rings aren't nearly as important as fielding a group that the locals can relate to.

[Skull-1]

:toast

Post of the year right here. Well said, and eloquently so.



No. If you're going to have Manu on the floor turning the ball over because his ego cannot accept the fact that his passes aren't as fluid or crisp as they once were, or that he's become predictable because of his limitations, Leonard's prowess isn't going to overcome that. If you have Manu chucking up bricks because he's hit some big shots over his career, and even though his 3pt% is horrid, then Leonard's long reach isn't going to compensate for that.

Basically, the Spurs won't be able to compensate for giving a liability decent minutes in big situations. Our confirmation bias causes us to instantly say "see I told you so" when Manu hits that game winner, and we ignore the fact that we were that close because Manu turned the ball over 8 times and often during critical plays. Love the guy, but he's gotta go.

Since he's been contemplating retirement because he hates the thought of rehab (and let's be honest, he knows his game is basically gone), and since even at his peak his effectiveness was largely due to his basketball IQ and craftiness, even a good rehab doesn't get him back to where the Spurs need him to be. He's lost his mental edge more than his physical one. Mentally he was capable of reading the defense and making eye popping plays that most of us couldn't have predicted. Now he's trying to make the same plays but he cannot because he cannot read the defenses. He gets picked by someone cheating into the passing lanes and yet he doesn't compensate by narrowing the passing lane mentally. He just does it again and gets the same result. It's about making decisions and he hasn't adjusted his game mentally to compensate for his age(Unlike Tim).

Right now Manu is a ticket selling device, not much else. If the Spurs are legit contenders this year (they might end up that way if they get as fortunate as they did last season with the matchups), having Manu playing big minutes would basically equate to them choosing ticket sales over success on the court. I cannot say I blame them though. Even when Dallas won the ring, they couldn't justify keeping guys together. Unless you're big marketish, rings aren't nearly as important as fielding a group that the locals can relate to.

[callo1]

Kawhi's ceiling is higher than Manu's ever was, and I'm an avid Ginobili fan.

Premature Kawhiulation.

That is a BOLD statement.

I love Kawhi, and think he is the future, but as others have stated, prime Manu lifted the level of his teammates by creating plays, while at the same time having the ability to take over games.

Kawhi is awesome, but it is a bit premature to place him at that level yet.

[Ghjkll]

Wow, Kawhi´s ceiling higher than Manu´s? The past two seasons Manu played really below his standards and it was clear for the first time that he was declining. It´s logic, he is a 36 years old guard who relied in athleticism. Happens to the best, eventually. You can´t beat father time. At the same time, let´s wait if Leonard can become really that good. Ginobili was an all-nba talent at his peak, which means a top 10-15 player in the NBA. All-Star, almost Finals MVP (in the same team, played a guy Tim Duncan in his prime), he led Argentina to a gold medal while defeating a team full of NBA All-Stars and many more feats. Right now his role should be reduced, but don´t disrepect a legend.

[xmas1997]

It's hard to say at this point if Kawhi will turn into the creator that Manu is, or was.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

i'm one of the types that believes kawhi is the next franchise spur. i think his ascension covers for manu AND tim aging. i'm not worried about kawhi's play making ability. he'll keep up/improve his defensive play. he was grabbing offensive boards like a big in the playoffs. he's got to hit his 3's and master the occasional tough pull up mid ranger. the big 3 can ride that all the way back to the finals again.

[SpurSwag]

i'm one of the types that believes kawhi is the next franchise spur. i think his ascension covers for manu AND tim aging. i'm not worried about kawhi's play making ability. he'll keep up/improve his defensive play. he was grabbing offensive boards like a big in the playoffs. he's got to hit his 3's and master the occasional tough pull up mid ranger. the big 3 can ride that all the way back to the finals again.

Agreed with all of this except idk if he can be a superstar franchise player yet. I really think the only way we get back to the finals is either with a resurgent Manu or with Kawhi playing like he did in the finals on a consistent basis. His 3 point stroke, while for the most part pretty good, is pretty streaky and he really needs to work on it being consistent. I think his next step is to learn to shoot threes from every angle and to maybe learn to shoot them off the dribble. I'm looking for him to take a Paul George type leap, who become a star in his 3rd year

[DMC]

Some of you are answering a different question than what was asked. Leonard doesn't have the decision making ability currently to lead a team and his athleticism isn't dominant enough to overcome that. He's got huge hands, and he has a fearless demeanor and an even keel. That will guarantee him minutes on any team in the NBA, however in order to lead a competitive team he has to have the ability to make decisions on the fly and not just on offense. Remember when you just knew it was over when Manu took the ball in the last minutes of the game? You knew he'd drive to the rim, get fouled and hit his FTs. You didn't want the ball in anyone's hands but those of Manu Ginobili. You remember when he could draw technical fouls while walking to the bench after a timeout (against Deron Williams)? Remember when he could stop a play that you just knew was going to bury your team? He's not that guy any longer, but then neither is Leonard. Manu did a hell of a lot more than score and defend. His will to win the game is probably greater than any player since Jordan, and maybe even stronger than that. The things he did with his body to gain an advantage, when he really had none otherwise, I've never seen anyone else do. He's not a great shooter, not a great rebounder, not a great shot blocker, not a great defender, he's a good passer but mostly his passes are circus passes that you just don't believe he made, but he's not a passer in the mold of a JKidd or Steve Nash. His will to win got him over these humps though. All that middle level skill lumped together with that will to win made him better than the sum of his skills.

Until Leonard can show something like that on a consistent basis, he's not going to be a team leader. Manu wasn't even a team leader even though he very well could have been on most any team in the league had he wanted to be.

[itzsoweezee]

I think Kahwi can be at least as good as Paul George. I'm putting him down as a lock for an all star next year.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Yes, if he's given a bit more opportunity on O. Kawhi is a sneaky-good scorer off post-ups, pull-ups, baseline drives and corner 3s, and it's time he became a more featured option, especially in the right matchups.

[cd021]

"Nearly..."

That sums up Manu over the last few years.

He has been awful but because he has one good game here or there you manutards strut and preen. We don't need ANY great games from him. What we need are NO HORRIBLE games where he totally destroys all the good the rest of the team has done. We don't have the margin to overcome his stupid plays and bad decisions.

If Manu had broken his ankle in Game 1 we are champs. That simple.

THE GUY COULDN'T EVEN DRIBBLE IN GAME TWO FOR GAWD'S SAKE.

Your argument against Manu is all over the place. :lol

:lmao You can't even use "Manutard" in the proper context. Its for people who are considered loyal to a fault of Ginobili. I had statistics to back up my assertions, You don't.

-I responded to a quote that said Kawhi ceiling was higher than Manu's was. I said that it doubtful cause Manu was one of the most effective players in the league for a span of 6 seasons (an average P.E.R or 23)

-You randomly mentioned 06' when he fouled Dirk that sent the game into OT. Even though Duncan missed a game winner and we lost after 5 minutes of OT.

- I responded with a small list of Manu's post season accomplishments over his career.

-You mentioned last season, when he struggled in the finals. But you neglected to mentioned some of his better games.

-Game 7-18 points, 5 assists against Miami-Loss

-Game 3, 19 points 5 assists, 7 rebounds against the Grizzlies=Win

-Game 5, NBA finals 24 points, 10 assists against the Heat=Win

-Game 5, 5 points, 11 assists, 5 rebounds in 24 minutes against the Warriors=Win

-Game 3, 21 points 5 three pointers,=Loss

-Game 1, 16 points, 7 rebounds, 11 assists, Game winner against the Warriors=Win

-Game 1, 1st round 19 points,7 assists in 19 minutes, +19 +/- against the Lakers=Win

-Game-2,13 points in 19 minutes, +19 +/-against the Lakers=Win

Obviously it was more than a game or two in our 21 post season won.

His post season run was actually fairly similar to his regular season numbers, with his shooting percentage and 3pt percentage dipping slightly, but his assists rising and only playing about 3 minutes more per game.

At this point he can't carry a team nor should he. He is at best a forth option now who was tasked with being the 3rd option and carrying a bench that is otherwise mediocre.

-His play making was essential to our run. His assist to turnover ratio was 2:1 this playoff is actually much lower than his career post season average of 3.9 assists to 2.6 T.O's. (1.5 assists to T.O).

The reason why we didn't "have the margin to overcome his turnovers" was because we really only 2 had to play-makers on our team. Having a rotation of Parker, Neal, Green, Ginobili and Leonard.

-Neal is undersized and a poor defender.

Green is a non threat off the dribble

-Leonard can't consistently attack the rim and can't/doesn't create for others.

It says alot when your 3rd, 4th and 5th best passers are Duncan, Diaw, and Splitter.

There really wasn't any other option, other than to continue to go with Manu. Hopefully this season Joseph/ Mills or Belli can help ease the shot creating burden.

[Skull-1]

Your argument against Manu is all over the place. :lol

:lmao You can't even use "Manutard" in the proper context. Its for people who are considered loyal to a fault of Ginobili. I had statistics to back up my assertions, You don't.

-I responded to a quote that said Kawhi ceiling was higher than Manu's was. I said that it doubtful cause Manu was one of the most effective players in the league for a span of 6 seasons (an average P.E.R or 23)

-You randomly mentioned 06' when he fouled Dirk that sent the game into OT. Even though Duncan missed a game winner and we lost after 5 minutes of OT.

- I responded with a small list of Manu's post season accomplishments over his career.

-You mentioned last season, when he struggled in the finals. But you neglected to mentioned some of his better games.

-Game 7-18 points, 5 assists against Miami-Loss

-Game 3, 19 points 5 assists, 7 rebounds against the Grizzlies=Win

-Game 5, NBA finals 24 points, 10 assists against the Heat=Win

-Game 5, 5 points, 11 assists, 5 rebounds in 24 minutes against the Warriors=Win

-Game 3, 21 points 5 three pointers,=Loss

-Game 1, 16 points, 7 rebounds, 11 assists, Game winner against the Warriors=Win

-Game 1, 1st round 19 points,7 assists in 19 minutes, +19 +/- against the Lakers=Win

-Game-2,13 points in 19 minutes, +19 +/-against the Lakers=Win

Obviously it was more than a game or two in our 21 post season won.

His post season run was actually fairly similar to his regular season numbers, with his shooting percentage and 3pt percentage dipping slightly, but his assists rising and only playing about 3 minutes more per game.

At this point he can't carry a team nor should he. He is at best a forth option now who was tasked with being the 3rd option and carrying a bench that is otherwise mediocre.

-His play making was essential to our run. His assist to turnover ratio was 2:1 this playoff is actually much lower than his career post season average of 3.9 assists to 2.6 T.O's. (1.5 assists to T.O).

The reason why we didn't "have the margin to overcome his turnovers" was because we really only 2 had to play-makers on our team. Having a rotation of Parker, Neal, Green, Ginobili and Leonard.

-Neal is undersized and a poor defender.

Green is a non threat off the dribble

-Leonard can't consistently attack the rim and can't/doesn't create for others.

It says alot when your 3rd, 4th and 5th best passers are Duncan, Diaw, and Splitter.

There really wasn't any other option, other than to continue to go with Manu. Hopefully this season Joseph/ Mills or Belli can help ease the shot creating burden.


Manu sucked. There is no way around it. Leonard beat Manu in every category except assists, but Manu had so many turnovers it canceled out his assists and then some.


PER is a worthless stat.

Manu played like crap and cost us a championship. You can quote all the stats you like. Guy had one good game, one so so game, two horrific games and the rest were just bad. Miami beat us because Ginobili helped them more than he helped us.

[Skull-1]

Leonard vs Ginobili 2013 Playoffs:


Points - Leonard 284 - 242
Rebounds - Leonard 190 - 78
Turnovers - Leonard 23 - 55
FG Pct - Leonard 54.5 - 39.9
3PT Pct - Leonard 39.0 - 30.2
Steals - Leonard 37 - 24
Fouls - Leonard 40 - 55
Blocks Leonard 11 - 6
Games in Double Figures - Leonard 18 - 11


Basically, Leonard did way more to help and way less to damage by nearly every measure than Manu. Considering the only areas Manu did better (free throws and assists) were not favorable on a cost:benefit analysis the evidence is incontrovertible. Leonard is part of the Big Three. Manu is not.

[cd021]

Leonard vs Ginobili 2013 Playoffs:


Points - Leonard 284 - 242
Rebounds - Leonard 190 - 78
Turnovers - Leonard 23 - 55
FG Pct - Leonard 54.5 - 39.9
3PT Pct - Leonard 39.0 - 30.2
Steals - Leonard 37 - 24
Fouls - Leonard 40 - 55
Blocks Leonard 11 - 6
Games in Double Figures - Leonard 18 - 11


Basically, Leonard did way more to help and way less to damage by nearly every measure than Manu. Considering the only areas Manu did better (free throws and assists) were not favorable on a cost:benefit analysis the evidence is incontrovertible. Leonard is part of the Big Three. Manu is not.

Who uses totals? I didn't realize this was the 1970's, Of course Leonard has much better numbers because he logged 10 mpg more than Manu.:lmao

Manu didn't outperform Kawhi but its much closer than you make it seem...

Manu Ginobili [Per 36 minutes] (Because he came off the bench)
15.6 PPG
6.8 APG
5.0 RPG
39.9% FG
73.8 FT%
30.9 3pt%
5.1 FTA

Kawhi Leonard (36.9 Mpg)

13.5 PPG
8.8 RPG
1 APG
1.1 TOV
54.5 FG%
63.8 FT%
39 3PT%
2.3 FTA

Manu
-Scored at a higher rate, and assisted at a drastically higher clip (+5.6 assists over Kawhi). Shot worse from the field and the 3pt line. Got to the free throw line twice as much and shot 12 percent better helping offset his shooting woes. Manu did also have the highest assist percentage of his career 29.7 %.

Kawhi-Shot better from the floor and from deep in a complementary role with the starting lineup. Rebounding was fantastic but averaged only 1 assist in 36.9 minutes and got to the Free throw line just 2.3 times a game while seeing his percentage free fall nearly 20% from the regular season.

P.E.R isn't a worthless stat. Are you really saying that during Manu's prime he wasn't one of the greatest players in the NBA. Because I can produce plenty more stats that prove otherwise.

And once again your argument is all over the place. Pick an argument and stick with it. I said Manu was elite during a 6 year period, and that Leonard would have a tough time even approaching such production for such a sustained period. Your acting like I said that Manu is better going forward. Actually read a post before starting an argument.

Its funny how you completely ignored the 8 games this post season I mentioned that helped us get in position to win a championship

Explain how the 24 points and 10 assists in game 5 helped Miami or the 18 points and 5 assists hurt us in game 7 when Parker struggled.

Going forward Leonard may be the 3rd option while Ginobili will take a complimentary role.

[Biernutz]

I hope that sitting out this summer will help Manu with the aches and pains of getting old.
He is at that age that Advil or celbrex will only help so much. He has to play smarter
and protect his body. He need to limit that crashing down the lane to a minimum and
save that for the playoffs. Kawhi can cover some of Manu's points production and he now demands
other teams cover him on offense. We need to keep a eye on that knee as to not make it a cronic
problem.

[Skull-1]

At cd021



Well at least Leonard helped his team, not the other team. Moron....


Leonard stepped up. Manu stepped down. As the playoffs progressed, Leonard went up, Manu went down. Eight turnovers. Eight. Eight. Eight. Eight. Eight turnovers in Game Six. Bench that idiot and we win. Eight turnovers. Manu barely escaped having more turnovers than points. Are you stupid or blind?


idiot azz bag.

[Skull-1]

And I might add.... Leonard was consistently good. Manu was sschizophrenic in his awfulness. Manu had two or three good games to offset his suck. Leonard was awesome all the way through. Totals don't even begin to describe the superiority of Leonard over Manu. PER IS GARBAGE. Geez us krist Leonard could dribble at least.

[Skull-1]

If Leonard stays healthy he will blow Manu away.

[Skull-1]

And u didn't list tov. Manu twenty tov per game tbh. Lol

[DrunkTXLabrat]

i love the hate on advanced stats. i think people use advance stats to say espn headline style, sportlitically correct statements. like blair will beast given the chance. and fading manu is too much for rising kawhi to ever compensate for. use your gut! it's not homerism! if anything, it's a leaking, subtle, "knock on wood" fear of that crappy sounding kawhi knee.

manu is old and injury prone, and loves turnovers as much as he ever has. kawhi is a hard working, defensive terrorizing, 3 ball learning, handles having, offensive boarding, aspiring star. the only way kawhi doesn't compensate for manu is that scary knee. no stats necessary.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

the only part i left out of was yeah manu is manu.

[Skull-1]

i love the hate on advanced stats. i think people use advance stats to say espn headline style, sportlitically correct statements. like blair will beast given the chance. and fading manu is too much for rising kawhi to ever compensate for. use your gut! it's not homerism! if anything, it's a leaking, subtle, "knock on wood" fear of that crappy sounding kawhi knee.

manu is old and injury prone, and loves turnovers as much as he ever has. kawhi is a hard working, defensive terrorizing, 3 ball learning, handles having, offensive boarding, aspiring star. the only way kawhi doesn't compensate for manu is that scary knee. no stats necessary.

[ace3g]

Kawhi's ascension can help cover the aging of the entire Big 3, end of story.

[kobexxx]

he can but not quite