watching '89 bulls vs pistons..they would get killed today

[poop]

These were supposedly some of the toughest defenses, everyone always is reminiscing about the ' hand checking' and how physical they could be back then, how lebron or kobe can't compare to jordan cause the nba is soft these days.

BULLSHIT. lol its amazing how much smaller and skinnier the players were back then, and the athleticism wasn't nearly what it is today. And all the foul calls look the same as today. To be honest all the crap people say about how tough these teams were and how hardcore compared to today, is just nostalgia.

Kobe or durant could have averaged 40ppg against these guys. Don't even start with lebron..he'd EASILY average 35 12 and 12. Easily. And freaks like howard or shaq could have put up bill russell type rebounding numbers.

[whitemamba]

I actually read this. The athleticism barrier is very true, most players in those days would not survive todays NBA.

[RD2191]

PED HGH

[ambchang]

Is it why Pierce, Kobe, Iverson, TMac and Vince all magically had a dramatic boost in PPG the very year they eliminated hand check?

[lefty]

lol using athleticism as an argument :lmao

[spurraider21]

I remember there was a hand check button in NBA Live 2001 :lol

shit was fun as hell

[spurraider21]

To everyone that says "scorers today would struggle then because physical play was allowed" you need to realize that the great defenders of those days would struggle in today's leagues. They'd all foul out in 18 minutes. The argument works both ways

[Medvedenko]

I've watched ball since the 80's and I love watching the hardwood classic games televised, especially of the late 80's early 90's. Now that being said the bball IQ was overall higher than today's ball, namely due to guys playing more college ball and being a little more rounded. However, the athlethic gap is definitely there as it was from the 60's and 70's to the 80's and 90's and so on. It's hard to say how much Kobe, Iverson or Lebron would average as team scoring has been dwindling since the 80's. Also outside shooting and specialists that are so prominent nowadays and I remember when Craig Hodges came on the scene. Wathching him now with 2013 bball eyes it's nothing more than a spot up shooter with range, granted awesome range. Not every team back then even had that and with zone defenses this is a must in today's game. The game keeps evolving.

[elmanutres]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/mj-laughing.gif

[Medvedenko]

Also, not pull age into the discussion, but if you didn't live through the 80's you can't really have an open and honest opionion on this subject. Nostalgia aside of course.

[Leon Black]

OP is a faggot

[whitemamba]

Also, not pull age into the discussion, but if you didn't live through the 80's you can't really have an open and honest opionion on this subject. Nostalgia aside of course.

thats a silly argument, thats like saying history doesnt mean anything unless you were alive at the time...

[poop]

Jordan still had the skills to thrive in todays game. But rofl that anyone denies lebronwouldnt absolutely dominate back then. He could literally dunk on every possession. There were no freaks like that back then. Hell howard would have got 19 rpg.

[Katherine Robinson]

The athleticism gap is very true, but one has to remember that at that time fundamentals were far more valuable. We call Lebron James an "elite defender" just because he's athletic enough to defend most people. Twenty-five years ago we called Dennis Rodman an elite defender because he knew how to defend anybody in front of him.

Kobe Bryant would fair far worse because his greatest obstacles were the likes of Battier and Bowen, two unathletic defenders with some fundamentals. Is Hakeem a better defender than a far more athletic Shaq? Is Tim Duncan a better defender than a far more athletic & younger Dwight Howard? As time went by, fundamentals eroded and were replaced by athleticism. If the two were combined we would have players on par with Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

[Medvedenko]

thats a silly argument, thats like saying history doesnt mean anything unless you were alive at the time...

I'm not saying History doesn't matter, it's just colored and adapted for whatever end means one wants. Having lived through it and witnessing what transpires will still hold more weight then reading or watching it at a later date. Try watching a movie you watched when you were a kid now and see how that works and all that baggage you have carried with you over the years impacts your opinion on said movie. We all do this, sports is the same way. Just like some movies transcend and still hold "up", some players do too, IE MJ.

[Medvedenko]

The athleticism gap is very true, but one has to remember that at that time fundamentals were far more valuable. We call Lebron James an "elite defender" just because he's athletic enough to defend most people. Twenty-five years ago we called Dennis Rodman an elite defender because he knew how to defend anybody in front of him.

Kobe Bryant would fair far worse because his greatest obstacles were the likes of Battier and Bowen, two unathletic defenders with some fundamentals. Is Hakeem a better defender than a far more athletic Shaq? Is Tim Duncan a better defender than a far more athletic & younger Dwight Howard? As time went by, fundamentals eroded and were replaced by athleticism. If the two were combined we would have players on par with Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Ok I'll bite. Kobe would have been just fine in the 80's or 90's as his jumping ability would transcend guys "thugging" him and trying to be physical. Kobe's greatest obstacles weren't guys who he routinely scored over 40 points on bro. Depends on the era, MJ was being stopped by savvy vets ie the Pistons of old, until he grew into his body and started using his brain with his body instead of just his athleticism. Same with Kobe. He used to get "stopped" by Bonzi Wells, Ruben Patterson, even Steve Smith and Scottie Pippen would use their savvy and physicallity to limit his athleticism. It was only until he got a little older and mature that he found other ways to score and be relevant. All great players do this.

[Katherine Robinson]

Ok I'll bite. Kobe would have been just fine in the 80's or 90's as his jumping ability would transcend guys "thugging" him and trying to be physical. Kobe's greatest obstacles weren't guys who he routinely scored over 40 points on bro. Depends on the era, MJ would have been stopped by savvy vets ie the Pistons of old, until he grew into his body and started using his brain with his body instead of just his athleticism. Same with Kobe. He used to get "stopped" by Bonzi Wells, Ruben Patterson, even Steve Smith and Scottie Pippen would use their savvy and physicallity to limit his athleticism. It was only until he got a little older and mature that he found other ways to score and be relevant. All great players do this.

I had stated his greatest obstacles were players who had knew the fundamentals of defense, not play "thug defense". More players knew how to defend in the previous two decades before the turn of the millennium.

[Medvedenko]

I had stated his greatest obstacles were players who had knew the fundamentals of defense, not play "thug defense". More players knew how to defend in the previous two decades before the turn of the millennium.

Yeah I can agree with your last point. The issue was not being able to defend or having a good team concept. The issue lies in their overall combined ability physically and mentally and when players like Kareem, Dr J, Pistol Pete, Bird, Magic, MJ, Isiah, Barkley, Drob, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Lebron they all transcended their positions during their time and became blueprints for the generation ahead.

[Buddy Mignon]

That depends on if they had a boost in point production the years previous to the hand check rule. The hand check rule is a wasted argument if you're not gonna mention the fact that the player could forcefully knock that hand away without getting called for fouls like today.

[spurraider21]

That depends on if they had a boost in point production the years previous to the hand check rule. The hand check rule is a wasted argument if you're not gonna mention the fact that the player could forcefully knock that hand away without getting called for fouls like today.
its still easier to focus on a shot, get your shoulders squared, and get good elevation on your shot when you aren't worrying about forcefully knocking that hand away

[Buddy Mignon]

That's true if your a spot up shooter but in todays game of one on one stars... tbey would benefit from being able to swipe the defenders hand down. It totally gives the offensive player the advantage. Magic and Jordan were masters at that skill.

Jordans last shot as a Bull is a perfect example.

[ambchang]

To everyone that says "scorers today would struggle then because physical play was allowed" you need to realize that the great defenders of those days would struggle in today's leagues. They'd all foul out in 18 minutes. The argument works both ways
Which is the point. You can't play defense the way you could. Making it much easier to score from the perimeter in today's league.

[Rogue]

players back then didn't have steroid to help grow muscles, nor dead baby's cells to help cure injuries.

[spurraider21]

Which is the point. You can't play defense the way you could. Making it much easier to score from the perimeter in today's league.

your "rugged defenders" from the previous era would be in foul trouble in today's game, is my point. or they won't be nearly as effective defensively. there is some give and take. easier to defend, tougher to score back then. easier to score, tougher to defend today. do you think larry bird would have been an effective defender in today's game?

[ambchang]

your "rugged defenders" from the previous era would be in foul trouble in today's game, is my point. or they won't be nearly as effective defensively. there is some give and take. easier to defend, tougher to score back then. easier to score, tougher to defend today. do you think larry bird would have been an effective defender in today's game?

You are basically saying that yesteryear's offensive players had it rough because they were being mugged by defenders who would foul out in today's games. In other words, today's perimeter players can score a lot easier because defenders can't do what defenders from 20 years ago could.

It's not having it both ways, its the exact same point.

[AchillesHeel]

To everyone that says "scorers today would struggle then because physical play was allowed" you need to realize that the great defenders of those days would struggle in today's leagues. They'd all foul out in 18 minutes. The argument works both ways

that's bs, they'd obviously adapt to the new rules...like the whole league did in 06 when handchecking was removed. Look at Chicago's and Boston's defenses...Or the Grizzlies. Tony Allen is arguably the best perimeter defender in the game and he doesn't have some hyper athleticism or a huge body. Defense is about basketball IQ not physical attributes. Obviously you need to be fast to a certain degree but you don't have to have Lebron's body to be an elite defender.

The elite defensive teams from the 80s/90s would still be elite in the modern era, maybe even better. They'd be less physical to avoid fouling but they'd still force bad shots and get into passing lanes for easy steals and transition points.

If Pistons managed to keep MJ at a 46% FG and 3.7 TOs, you don't think they could stop Lebron and make him shoot jumpers like the Spurs did? Who do Spurs have that are hyper athletic? It's all about basketball IQ and playing as a team. 37 y.o Timmy and Kawhi/Boris Diaw kept Lebron in trouble and made him shoot a horrible percentage for most of the Finals, Diaw ain't even above-average on defense and Timmy is old, but as a team with the right game plan they can stop the best of them from killing their team.

In conclusion, OP is an idiot.

[Koolaid_Man]

These were supposedly some of the toughest defenses, everyone always is reminiscing about the ' hand checking' and how physical they could be back then, how lebron or kobe can't compare to jordan cause the nba is soft these days.

BULLSHIT. lol its amazing how much smaller and skinnier the players were back then, and the athleticism wasn't nearly what it is today. And all the foul calls look the same as today. To be honest all the crap people say about how tough these teams were and how hardcore compared to today, is just nostalgia.

Kobe or durant could have averaged 40ppg against these guys. Don't even start with lebron..he'd EASILY average 35 12 and 12. Easily. And freaks like howard or shaq could have put up bill russell type rebounding numbers.


as much as I love my boy Kobe he would have looked average against a Prime Pistons teams much like MJ did...Lebron or Tim Duncan won't stand a chance with their soft cake creamy pudding style of play...that Prime Pistons team with Rodman, Laimbeer, Rick Mahorn, John Sally would have kicked their asses...and Kobe's too but to a much lesser degree...Listen they were hard nosed...I mean they didn't let anyone in the paint without severe consequences...if I'm not mistaken they broke MJ's ribs once...they put MJ on lock down with the Jordan Rules...they put Rodman on his ass and Rodman really fucked up MJ's world...so much so that Phil (like a little bitch) asked Rodman to apologize to MJ before they signed him on with the Bulls..Rodman said he laughed and issued MJ a half -assed apology for kicking his ass all those years while he was in Detriot..:lmao

Bill Laimbeer was the hardest white boy to ever play in the league...I remember he kicked Charles Barkley's ass once...Barkley was swinging like a little bitch...:lol they had the perfect combination of scoring and defense that I've ever seen on a team...Isaiah, Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson running the offense, with Rodman, Mahorn, Laimbeer, and Sally on defense..I used to hate playing those guys...but I loved seeing them kick MJ's ass...

[Koolaid_Man]

and for the record..there's not a PG in the league today that could fuck with a Prime Zeke....Isaiah was the real deal....and was hard nosed...these guys today are pussies....they would not have been able to physically survive...Isaiah used to whip the shit outta John Stockton all the time...Malone got mad on one occassion and gave Zeke 40 stiitches...you think a PG in the league today could have withstood this type of punishment...and btw (I always thought Malone was faggot for this)

6bM-Y4UoiAY

[AchillesHeel]

Westbrook imo would fit in the 80s league, that nigga crazy.

[AchillesHeel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFMkSJAsVUI

[spurraider21]

that's bs, they'd obviously adapt to the new rules...like the whole league did in 06 when handchecking was removed. Look at Chicago's and Boston's defenses...Or the Grizzlies. Tony Allen is arguably the best perimeter defender in the game and he doesn't have some hyper athleticism or a huge body. Defense is about basketball IQ not physical attributes. Obviously you need to be fast to a certain degree but you don't have to have Lebron's body to be an elite defender.

The elite defensive teams from the 80s/90s would still be elite in the modern era, maybe even better. They'd be less physical to avoid fouling but they'd still force bad shots and get into passing lanes for easy steals and transition points.

If Pistons managed to keep MJ at a 46% FG and 3.7 TOs, you don't think they could stop Lebron and make him shoot jumpers like the Spurs did? Who do Spurs have that are hyper athletic? It's all about basketball IQ and playing as a team. 37 y.o Timmy and Kawhi/Boris Diaw kept Lebron in trouble and made him shoot a horrible percentage for most of the Finals, Diaw ain't even above-average on defense and Timmy is old, but as a team with the right game plan they can stop the best of them from killing their team.

In conclusion, OP is an idiot.

i could make an equally lazy argument and say today's players would adapt to the old rules and be just as effective. i could say that average defenders in todays game, allowed to hand check and play more physically without getting called for fouls, would become better defenders.

[spurraider21]

You are basically saying that yesteryear's offensive players had it rough because they were being mugged by defenders who would foul out in today's games. In other words, today's perimeter players can score a lot easier because defenders can't do what defenders from 20 years ago could.

It's not having it both ways, its the exact same point.

its easier to score in todays game, which makes it harder to defend. its a parallel (though not as dramatic) to how the NFL has become such a passing league due to rule changes. its easier to throw the ball now, and near impossible to defend it. matt stafford of all people, an average qb at best, threw for 5000 yards and 40 touchdowns, which ranks among the best passing seasons of all time. so could you imagine what guys like Revis and Richard Sherman could be able to do in the league where physical defense was allowed?

could you imagine what tony allen, a guy that already plays to the limit of how much physicality is allowd in todays game, was allowed to play even more physical defense? if lebron was allowed to mug people on defense?

[AchillesHeel]

i could make an equally lazy argument and say today's players would adapt to the old rules and be just as effective. i could say that average defenders in todays game, allowed to hand check and play more physically without getting called for fouls, would become better defenders.

My point is they'd likely be just as good in this era as they were in their own, defense used to be more physical but it was not just physical, how did John Stockton average all those steals and make so many defensive teams? He basically has the same body as Nash(2 inches shorter than Nash). It's about basketball IQ and playing as a team, not just being physical.

[ambchang]

its easier to score in todays game, which makes it harder to defend. its a parallel (though not as dramatic) to how the NFL has become such a passing league due to rule changes. its easier to throw the ball now, and near impossible to defend it. matt stafford of all people, an average qb at best, threw for 5000 yards and 40 touchdowns, which ranks among the best passing seasons of all time. so could you imagine what guys like Revis and Richard Sherman could be able to do in the league where physical defense was allowed?

could you imagine what tony allen, a guy that already plays to the limit of how much physicality is allowd in todays game, was allowed to play even more physical defense? if lebron was allowed to mug people on defense?

I don't really watch NFL, so the parallel is lost on me.

If Tony Allen and Lebron were allowed to mug people like they did back in the day, they would become better defenders for sure, which is really the point. There were no shortage of perimeter defenders back in the 80s, and yet we do not have one single person who could be considered an equal to the defenders of the 80s and 90s. Nobody is on the same level as a Pippen, Payton, Cooper, Dumars, or Moncrief in today's game, and it's no coincidence, because people can't play the way they used to anymore, which means that perimeter defenders can do a whole lot than what they could back in the days, which means that players like Lebron, Kobe, Carter, T-Mac and such will likely suffer in the 80s and 90s.

[Killakobe81]

I agree the lack of athletic defenders in late 80's early 90's gave a player like MJ a huge advantage. Kobe and LeBron would exploit the same thing I'd they played then. But if you watch those games especially in the 80's those team could shoot at a higher rate, and the quality of bigs in that era were far superior. So defensively though they lacked athleticism they also had far better paint protection. A frontline of Edwards, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Rodman and Salley would give any player trouble especially if that player struggles to hit 3s. Mj did benefit from the lack of quality defenders last wek I saw Ainge, Randy Wittman ,., Stockton and Hornacek guard him for stretches due to foul trouble or switches. I also saw him torch a older Coop, DJ and Thunder Dan. Point is MJ took advantage of a weak era of athletes but still had the skill, will and ability to compete with the best teams and defenders of those bad boy pistons and any team of any era including the LeBron Heat as well. I love Kobe and LeBron's game. All 3 would be great in any era and LeBron still has an outside shot at GOAt ..but MJ is the best player I have seen so far.And I saw all 3 in their prime. Mj is not perfect if you watch those classic games he forces shots (not as bad as Kobe) and like LeBron and Kobe needed hof help to win it all. Mj is also overrated by some fans who act like its sacrilege to compare LeBron to him. But despite all that still the Goat of players I have seen in their prime I was much too young to enjoy Kareem in his. So its Jordan followed by magic LeBron Bird Shaq, Duncan and Kobe in some order but since most of those guys still playing tough to rank. Mj is still #1 .

[Killakobe81]

Agree with Kool on Zeke pre-injury Rose and Russ have the physical but not the smarts to duck with Isiah CP3 is probably closest but lacks the clutch canines despite the bullshit clutch stats to lead like Isiah. Paul is regular season clutch but unproven as a playoff closer. Good news is Isiah threw the pass Bird famously stole (dumb move to have Isiah inbounds btw, don't you want your pg getting open? Can a Pistons fan explain this?) But he learned the hard way maybe Paul will too ...