*** Official thread for players who won 3+ Finals MVPs ***

[AchillesHeel]

Welcome to the official thread for players who won 3 or more NBA Finals MVP awards.

Michael Jordan - six
Magic Johnson - three
Tim Duncan - three
Shaquille O'Neal - three

[Michael Jordan.]

My nigga

[Juggity]

The GOATs.

Lebron will be up there soon in all likelihood. Then you'll have the all time starting lineup.

[Leetonidas]

tbh makes me question Kareem's place in the top 10 considering out of 6 rings he only won Finals MVP twice

[AchillesHeel]

tbh makes me question Kareem's place in the top 10 considering out of 6 rings he only won Finals MVP twice

Tbh he won a Finals MVP at 37 years old and he's the all-time leading scorer. His longetivity alone makes him one of the greatest.

[Deuce Bigalow]

tbh makes me question Kareem's place in the top 10 considering out of 6 rings he only won Finals MVP twice
He had a Finals series of 33-14-3 and 5 blks on 55% in 1980 but didn't win FMVP. Better than anything than the guy OP is trying to prop.

but as far as "Alpha Titles", he has 2. Still ahead of Duncan on the alltime list obviously.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe 2001 Finals-- 25-8-6 / 50 TS%
Kobe 2002 Finals-- 27-6-5 / 62 TS%

Duncan 2005 Finals-- 21-14-2 / 47 TS%

[AchillesHeel]

Kobe 2001 Finals-- 25-8-6 / 50 TS%
Kobe 2002 Finals-- 27-6-5 / 62 TS%

Duncan 2005 Finals-- 21-14-2 / 47 TS%

Tell me how well Kirby shot in 2000,2004,2008 and 2010 :lmao

Oh yes, showing Kirby's medicore and his best Finals and comparing them to Duncan's worst in terms of efficiency.

TD's 2003 Finals destroys Kirby's best in 2002(both against the same team as well).

[lefty]

http://replygif.net/i/893.gif

[lefty]

http://replygif.net/i/1128.gif

[Deuce Bigalow]

Tell me how well Kirby shot in 2000,2004,2008 and 2010 :lmao

Oh yes, showing Kirby's medicore and his best Finals and comparing them to Duncan's worst in terms of efficiency.

TD's 2003 Finals destroys Kirby's best in 2002(both against the same team as well).
Lakers didnt win in 04 and 08.

Kobe's 4 best Finals wins
2001-- 25-8-6 / 50 TS%
2002-- 27-6-5 / 62 TS%
2009-- 32-6-7 / 53 TS%
2010-- 29-8-4 / 53 TS%

Duncan's 4 best Finals wins
1999-- 27-14-2 / 60 TS%
2003-- 24-17-5 / 55 TS%
2005-- 21-14-2 / 47 TS%
2007-- 18-12-4 / 48 TS%

[AchillesHeel]

Lakers didnt win in 04 and 08.

Kobe's 4 best Finals wins
2001-- 25-8-6 / 50 TS%
2002-- 27-6-5 / 62 TS%
2009-- 32-6-7 / 53 TS%
2010-- 29-8-4 / 53 TS%

Duncan's 4 best Finals wins
1999-- 27-14-2 / 60 TS%
2003-- 24-17-5 / 55 TS%
2005-- 21-14-2 / 47 TS%
2007-- 18-12-4 / 48 TS%

TS favors Kirby because of the amount of free throws and him being the better FT shooter.

[Deuce Bigalow]

TS favors Kirby because of the amount of free throws and him being the better FT shooter.
Yeah, and that's a bad thing? Freethrows are part of a players efficiency.

[TrainOfThought5]

The GOATs.Lebron will be up there soon in all likelihood. Then you'll have the all time starting lineup.

[Arnold Toht]

The GOATs.

Lebron will be up there soon in all likelihood. Then you'll have the all time starting lineup.

Spurfan desperate

[Kool Bob Love]

^0 time Finals MVP speaking.

[Arnold Toht]

^ victim of 6 speaking

[TDMVPDPOY]

^dated a horse looking person

[Michael Jordan.]

Lakers didnt win in 04 and 08.

Kobe's 4 best Finals wins
2001-- 25-8-6 / 50 TS%
2002-- 27-6-5 / 62 TS%
2009-- 32-6-7 / 53 TS%
2010-- 29-8-4 / 53 TS%

Duncan's 4 best Finals wins
1999-- 27-14-2 / 60 TS%
2003-- 24-17-5 / 55 TS%
2005-- 21-14-2 / 47 TS%
2007-- 18-12-4 / 48 TS%

Didn't Duncan shoot better than 40%?

[Leetonidas]

Kobe 2001 Finals-- 25-8-6 / 50 TS%
Kobe 2002 Finals-- 27-6-5 / 62 TS%

Duncan 2005 Finals-- 21-14-2 / 47 TS%

comparing Duncan playing against the best defensive frontcourt ever versus Kobe benefiting from Shaq being triple teamed :lol

[Josepatches_]

Kobe had only 2 Finals MVP. Thread is for players who won 3+

[ambchang]

Lakers didnt win in 04 and 08.

Kobe's 4 best Finals wins
2001-- 25-8-6 / 50 TS%
2002-- 27-6-5 / 62 TS%
2009-- 32-6-7 / 53 TS%
2010-- 29-8-4 / 53 TS%

Duncan's 4 best Finals wins
1999-- 27-14-2 / 60 TS%
2003-- 24-17-5 / 55 TS%
2005-- 21-14-2 / 47 TS%
2007-- 18-12-4 / 48 TS%

I remember educating you on the use of TS% in the past, and how perimeter players and post players generally do not compare. It's like comparing rebounds, assists, blocks or FG% between players. What is considered good for a perimeter player could be considered horrible for an inside player for one category, and vice versa for another.

The reason is due to the use of 3 point shots + FTs and how TS% favours perimeter players.

For example, a player like Monta Ellis, who is known to be a player with questionable shot selection, has a career TS% of 52.6% (similar or better than 3 of the 4 Kobe series you cited), and the reason lies in how he's a 31.8% 3PT shooter in his career out of 2.8 attempts (17% of his total shots). This 31.8% shooting essentially translates to a 47.7% true shooting (a respectable number for a perimeter player if it was actually FG%, and higher than his career 45.6% FG%). Add to that his .773 FT%, and how 18.5% of his total career points came off of FTs, it helped dragged his TS% to Kobe best finals numbers.

Compare this to, say, Chris Webber, who, in general terms, is a relatively decent inside player his entire career. Webber had a career TS % of 51.3%, which isn't bad for a post player, but most definitely a full % lower than Monta Ellis. Is Webber a less efficient player than Ellis? Of course not, what kind of idiot would say that other than those who have absolutely no idea of statistics and how they work?

Another reason is because Kobe won 5 championships while Duncan "only" 4. In your comparison, Kobe's worse series (2003) was thrown out, while Duncan's wasn't. We also haven't looked at losses (2004, 2008 and 2013), and dismissing the losses and only included the wins is a highly questionable comparison.

Finally, the roles of Duncan and Kobe were different. Kobe was the clear cut sidekick in 01 and 02, and had a dominant front line (Kobe's equal of better) to take pressure off him in 09 and 10, while Duncan carried the Spurs offense in 99 and 03, had an equal/sidekick on offense in 05 while being guarded by arguably one of the best defensive frontcourt ever in 05, and was a clear defensive anchor in 07. Kobe was never thrusted in an offensive role in a Finals series like Duncan held in 03 or even 99, nor had he ever had the level of defensive attention that Duncan had, ever. I can play against a bunch of kindergarten kids and have a TS% of 150%, but that won't make me a more efficient player than Kobe Bryant.

[AchillesHeel]

I remember educating you on the use of TS% in the past, and how perimeter players and post players generally do not compare. It's like comparing rebounds, assists, blocks or FG% between players. What is considered good for a perimeter player could be considered horrible for an inside player for one category, and vice versa for another.

The reason is due to the use of 3 point shots + FTs and how TS% favours perimeter players.

For example, a player like Monta Ellis, who is known to be a player with questionable shot selection, has a career TS% of 52.6% (similar or better than 3 of the 4 Kobe series you cited), and the reason lies in how he's a 31.8% 3PT shooter in his career out of 2.8 attempts (17% of his total shots). This 31.8% shooting essentially translates to a 47.7% true shooting (a respectable number for a perimeter player if it was actually FG%, and higher than his career 45.6% FG%). Add to that his .773 FT%, and how 18.5% of his total career points came off of FTs, it helped dragged his TS% to Kobe best finals numbers.

Compare this to, say, Chris Webber, who, in general terms, is a relatively decent inside player his entire career. Webber had a career TS % of 51.3%, which isn't bad for a post player, but most definitely a full % lower than Monta Ellis. Is Webber a less efficient player than Ellis? Of course not, what kind of idiot would say that other than those who have absolutely no idea of statistics and how they work?

Another reason is because Kobe won 5 championships while Duncan "only" 4. In your comparison, Kobe's worse series (2003) was thrown out, while Duncan's wasn't. We also haven't looked at losses (2004, 2008 and 2013), and dismissing the losses and only included the wins is a highly questionable comparison.

Finally, the roles of Duncan and Kobe were different. Kobe was the clear cut sidekick in 01 and 02, and had a dominant front line (Kobe's equal of better) to take pressure off him in 09 and 10, while Duncan carried the Spurs offense in 99 and 03, had an equal/sidekick on offense in 05 while being guarded by arguably one of the best defensive frontcourt ever in 05, and was a clear defensive anchor in 07. Kobe was never thrusted in an offensive role in a Finals series like Duncan held in 03 or even 99, nor had he ever had the level of defensive attention that Duncan had, ever. I can play against a bunch of kindergarten kids and have a TS% of 150%, but that won't make me a more efficient player than Kobe Bryant.

Holy shit.

R.I.P

[Deuce Bigalow]

I remember educating you on the use of TS% in the past, and how perimeter players and post players generally do not compare. It's like comparing rebounds, assists, blocks or FG% between players. What is considered good for a perimeter player could be considered horrible for an inside player for one category, and vice versa for another.

The reason is due to the use of 3 point shots + FTs and how TS% favours perimeter players.

For example, a player like Monta Ellis, who is known to be a player with questionable shot selection, has a career TS% of 52.6% (similar or better than 3 of the 4 Kobe series you cited), and the reason lies in how he's a 31.8% 3PT shooter in his career out of 2.8 attempts (17% of his total shots). This 31.8% shooting essentially translates to a 47.7% true shooting (a respectable number for a perimeter player if it was actually FG%, and higher than his career 45.6% FG%). Add to that his .773 FT%, and how 18.5% of his total career points came off of FTs, it helped dragged his TS% to Kobe best finals numbers.

Compare this to, say, Chris Webber, who, in general terms, is a relatively decent inside player his entire career. Webber had a career TS % of 51.3%, which isn't bad for a post player, but most definitely a full % lower than Monta Ellis. Is Webber a less efficient player than Ellis? Of course not, what kind of idiot would say that other than those who have absolutely no idea of statistics and how they work?

Another reason is because Kobe won 5 championships while Duncan "only" 4. In your comparison, Kobe's worse series (2003) was thrown out, while Duncan's wasn't. We also haven't looked at losses (2004, 2008 and 2013), and dismissing the losses and only included the wins is a highly questionable comparison.

Finally, the roles of Duncan and Kobe were different. Kobe was the clear cut sidekick in 01 and 02, and had a dominant front line (Kobe's equal of better) to take pressure off him in 09 and 10, while Duncan carried the Spurs offense in 99 and 03, had an equal/sidekick on offense in 05 while being guarded by arguably one of the best defensive frontcourt ever in 05, and was a clear defensive anchor in 07. Kobe was never thrusted in an offensive role in a Finals series like Duncan held in 03 or even 99, nor had he ever had the level of defensive attention that Duncan had, ever. I can play against a bunch of kindergarten kids and have a TS% of 150%, but that won't make me a more efficient player than Kobe Bryant.
You only told me what we already know about TS. It may favor perimeter players a little, but its still the best measure of OVERALL efficiency. Threes and freethrows are part of the game.

Ellis would have had a very low TS% if he faced the same elite defensive teams in the Finals. Why are you comparing regular season TS% to Finals TS%?

The second part of your post is absolute bullshit. First off Kobe had way more of a offensive responsibilty than Duncan had. Kobe averaged 32 ppg and 7 apg in 09, offensive numbers Duncan never came close too, his highest ppg was 27. Kobe bested that number in 10 when he averaged 29 ppg. Sorry, Duncan was never close to being the offensive force Kobe was and teams did not defend Duncan the way they did Kobe. Duncan puts up role player type ppg like a Kevin McHale and Memphis Pau Gasol for most of his career. Kobe is one of the greatest scorers ever and you think Tim 20ppg Duncan got defenses scared? Lol

[AchillesHeel]

You only told me what we already know about TS. It may favor perimeter players a little, but its still the best measure of OVERALL efficiency. Threes and freethrows are part of the game.

Ellis would have had a very low TS% if he faced the same elite defensive teams in the Finals. Why are you comparing regular season TS% to Finals TS%?

The second part of your post is absolute bullshit. First off Kobe had way more of a offensive responsibilty than Duncan had. Kobe averaged 32 ppg and 7 apg in 09, offensive numbers Duncan never came close too, his highest ppg was 27. Kobe bested that number in 10 when he averaged 29 ppg. The 08 and 10 Celtics packed the paint anytime Kobe came anywhere near the basket. But sorry, Duncan was never close to being the offensive force Kobe was and teams did not defend Duncan the way they did Kobe. Duncan puts up role player type ppg like a Kevin McHale and Memphis Pau Gasol for most of his career. Kobe is one of the greatest scorers ever and you think Tim 20ppg Duncan was got defenses scared? Lol

Ok, so Kobe is the better overall offensive player. Now look at rebounding and defense. Kirby puts up 25 ppg on medicore efficiency for his career, meanwhile Duncan is one of the greatest defensive players and rebounders of all time, there are plenty of players that are better than Kirby on the offensive end, and they're even in the league right now. What does Kirby have on Lebron or KD when you're looking at offense? Both are more efficient with Bron also being the better playmaker, while Durant is the better shooter from the FT line,mid-range and 3pointers. Then we get to MJ,Magic,Bird.

Really, what is Kirby so good at? Chucking up 20+ shots a game for 25-27 ppg? Phil, in 2004 already said Kirby's D is declining and that he refuses to do what's best for the team when he's not making his shots. Kirby has only gotten worse on D and he's still a chucker that refuses to make plays for others on a consistent basis. Last year he was forced to do so because him averaging 30+ ppg on 47% shooting early in the season didn't win shit, they went 8 games under .500 during Kirby's "hot streak".

Duncan might not be Hakeem on offense but his overall play is only matched by a few all-time great big men. Not to mention he's won more FMVPs than Kareem,Hakeem,Wilt and he has as many rings as Shaq.

Kevin McHale and Pau were hardly role players, McHale is considered one of the most dominating low-post players of all time, Pau got Kirby 2 more rings, being the better player in the regular season in 09 and the post-season in 2010, especially the Finals.

Duncan averaged 24 points 17 rebounds 5 assists and 5 blocks for an entire Finals series and put up 30 and 17 at the age of 37 in Game 6 vs Miami, what has Kirby done lately?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Ok, so Kobe is the better overall offensive player. Now look at rebounding and defense. Kirby puts up 25 ppg on medicore efficiency for his career, meanwhile Duncan is one of the greatest defensive players and rebounders of all time, there are plenty of players that are better than Kirby on the offensive end, and they're even in the league right now. What does Kirby have on Lebron or KD when you're looking at offense? Both are more efficient with Bron also being the better playmaker, while Durant is the better shooter from the FT line,mid-range and 3pointers. Then we get to MJ,Magic,Bird.

Really, what is Kirby so good at? Chucking up 20+ shots a game for 25-27 ppg? Phil, in 2004 already said Kirby's D is declining and that he refuses to do what's best for the team when he's not making his shots. Kirby has only gotten worse on D and he's still a chucker that refuses to make plays for others on a consistent basis. Last year he was forced to do so because him averaging 30+ ppg on 47% shooting early in the season didn't win shit, they went 8 games under .500 during Kirby's "hot streak".

Duncan might not be Hakeem on offense but his overall play is only matched by a few all-time great big men. Not to mention he's won more FMVPs than Kareem,Hakeem,Wilt and he has as many rings as Shaq.

Kevin McHale and Pau were hardly role players, McHale is considered one of the most dominating low-post players of all time, Pau got Kirby 2 more rings, being the better player in the regular season in 09 and the post-season in 2010, especially the Finals.

Duncan averaged 24 points 17 rebounds 5 assists and 5 blocks for an entire Finals series and put up 30 and 17 at the age of 37 in Game 6 vs Miami, what has Kirby done lately?
What is Kobe good at? Everything. Scoring? 3 seasons of 30+ ppg in the regular season with a high of 35 ppg, 4 playoff runs of 30+ppg including one that led to a title, a 30+ ppg finals series. Rebounding? 6.9 rpg in 02-03 season, 7.1 rpg in the 01 playoffs, 8.0 rpg in the 10 finals, 7.8 rpg in the 01 finals, and 6.0 rpg in the 2010 playoffs. Passing? Multiple playoff series wih 7+apg including one in the Finals, 2 playoff series with 8+ apg, 6.0 apg last season-his second 6+ apg season. Defense? Known as a great defender in his early years as evident by the defensive teams.

Yeah it was Pau averaging 30-5-6/32-6-7 (tel:30-5-6/32-6-7) and 29-6-6/29-8-4 (tel:29-6-6/29-8-4) in 09-10 (playoffs/finals). Fuck out of here Pau was putting up near Duncan 20-11 numbers while Kobe was busy being 96-98 MJ 2.0

What has Kobe done lately? 27-6-6 on 57 TS%, All-NBA First team last season.

[AchillesHeel]

What is Kobe good at? Everything. Scoring? 3 seasons of 30+ ppg in the regular season with a high of 35 ppg, 4 playoff runs of 30+ppg including one that led to a title, a 30+ ppg finals series. Rebounding? 6.9 rpg in 02-03 season, 7.1 rpg in the 01 playoffs, 8.0 rpg in the 10 finals, 7.8 rpg in the 01 finals, and 6.0 rpg in the 2010 playoffs. Passing? Multiple playoff series wih 7+apg including one in the Finals, 2 playoff series with 8+ apg, 6.0 apg last season-his second 6+ apg season. Defense? Known as a great defender in his early years as evident by the defensive teams.

Yeah it was Pau averaging 30-5-6/32-6-7 (tel:30-5-6/32-6-7) and 29-6-6/29-8-4 (tel:29-6-6/29-8-4) in 09-10 (playoffs/finals). Fuck out of here Pau was putting up near Duncan 20-11 numbers while Kobe was busy being 96-98 MJ 2.0

What has Kobe done lately? 27-6-6 on 57 TS%, All-NBA First team last season.

Watching his team get swept in the 1st round was quite an accomplishment, go look at his defensive numbers. He was worse than Nash on D :lol

98 MJ was better than 09/10 Kirby. Better mid-range shooter, more efficienct scorer, much better defender, scored 45 points and had 4 steals and hit the game-winner on the road to win his 6th ring, never allowed a Game 7 in the Finals. Was the best player in every single Finals he ever played while Kirby was a sidekick to Pau in 2010.

Please, never compare Kirby to MJ again.

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Kobe-Bryant-LeBron-James-Michael-Jordan-playoff-clutch-shots.jpg

[Michael Jordan.]

Lakerfan sure do love ignoring those 41% shooting stats in the finals, along with a career 44% shooting in the players, all the while being a career 45% chucker, only 2% higher than the likes of McGrady and Iverson. Christ! :lol

:cry"But he's the best scorer on the planet with 2 scoring titles":cry

[Kool Bob Love]

http://www.allposters.com/IMAGES/PHO/AAGR041.jpg

:toast

[DMC]

He had a Finals series of 33-14-3 and 5 blks on 55% in 1980 but didn't win FMVP. Better than anything than the guy OP is trying to prop.

but as far as "Alpha Titles", he has 2. Still ahead of Duncan on the alltime list obviously.

Statfag sighting.

Have the wounds healed?

[DMC]

I remember educating you on the use of TS% in the past, and how perimeter players and post players generally do not compare. It's like comparing rebounds, assists, blocks or FG% between players. What is considered good for a perimeter player could be considered horrible for an inside player for one category, and vice versa for another.

The reason is due to the use of 3 point shots + FTs and how TS% favours perimeter players.

For example, a player like Monta Ellis, who is known to be a player with questionable shot selection, has a career TS% of 52.6% (similar or better than 3 of the 4 Kobe series you cited), and the reason lies in how he's a 31.8% 3PT shooter in his career out of 2.8 attempts (17% of his total shots). This 31.8% shooting essentially translates to a 47.7% true shooting (a respectable number for a perimeter player if it was actually FG%, and higher than his career 45.6% FG%). Add to that his .773 FT%, and how 18.5% of his total career points came off of FTs, it helped dragged his TS% to Kobe best finals numbers.

Compare this to, say, Chris Webber, who, in general terms, is a relatively decent inside player his entire career. Webber had a career TS % of 51.3%, which isn't bad for a post player, but most definitely a full % lower than Monta Ellis. Is Webber a less efficient player than Ellis? Of course not, what kind of idiot would say that other than those who have absolutely no idea of statistics and how they work?

Another reason is because Kobe won 5 championships while Duncan "only" 4. In your comparison, Kobe's worse series (2003) was thrown out, while Duncan's wasn't. We also haven't looked at losses (2004, 2008 and 2013), and dismissing the losses and only included the wins is a highly questionable comparison.

Finally, the roles of Duncan and Kobe were different. Kobe was the clear cut sidekick in 01 and 02, and had a dominant front line (Kobe's equal of better) to take pressure off him in 09 and 10, while Duncan carried the Spurs offense in 99 and 03, had an equal/sidekick on offense in 05 while being guarded by arguably one of the best defensive frontcourt ever in 05, and was a clear defensive anchor in 07. Kobe was never thrusted in an offensive role in a Finals series like Duncan held in 03 or even 99, nor had he ever had the level of defensive attention that Duncan had, ever. I can play against a bunch of kindergarten kids and have a TS% of 150%, but that won't make me a more efficient player than Kobe Bryant.

Statfag decimated.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Watching his team get swept in the 1st round was quite an accomplishment, go look at his defensive numbers. He was worse than Nash on D :lol

98 MJ was better than 09/10 Kirby. Better mid-range shooter, more efficienct scorer, much better defender, scored 45 points and had 4 steals and hit the game-winner on the road to win his 6th ring, never allowed a Game 7 in the Finals. Was the best player in every single Finals he ever played while Kirby was a sidekick to Pau in 2010.

Please, never compare Kirby to MJ again.

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Kobe-Bryant-LeBron-James-Michael-Jordan-playoff-clutch-shots.jpg
08-10 Kobe was pretty close to 96-98 MJ

Pau was pretty close to Duncan, 19/12 in the 2010 Finals, Kobe 29/8.

[ambchang]

You only told me what we already know about TS. It may favor perimeter players a little, but its still the best measure of OVERALL efficiency. Threes and freethrows are part of the game.

Ellis would have had a very low TS% if he faced the same elite defensive teams in the Finals. Why are you comparing regular season TS% to Finals TS%?

The second part of your post is absolute bullshit. First off Kobe had way more of a offensive responsibilty than Duncan had. Kobe averaged 32 ppg and 7 apg in 09, offensive numbers Duncan never came close too, his highest ppg was 27. Kobe bested that number in 10 when he averaged 29 ppg. Sorry, Duncan was never close to being the offensive force Kobe was and teams did not defend Duncan the way they did Kobe. Duncan puts up role player type ppg like a Kevin McHale and Memphis Pau Gasol for most of his career. Kobe is one of the greatest scorers ever and you think Tim 20ppg Duncan got defenses scared? Lol


It is good to know that you already know TS% favours perimeter players, and you have indirectly admitting to being intellectually dishonest to compare Kobe and Duncan using statistics that favours perimeter players to make an argument of Kobe > Duncan. However, the difference is hardly "a little".

For example, a player such as Reggie Miller, who was about as efficient as perimeter players go, had a career TS% of 61.4%. Compare this to one of the best inside player of the game, Shaquille O'Neal, who had a career TS% of "only" 58.2%, and you can see that the difference is hardly "a little".

Of course threes and FTs are part of the game, but TS% doesn't tell you the impact of missed shots. It discounts FTAs by counting two FTA = 88% of one FGA, which takes in the general account that there are potential for 3 pters in a possession despite 24% of all FGA were 3s in 2013 season, while ignoring the first missed FTA gives possession back while the 2 FTA does not. It also assumes that 6 points yielded through 2 3PM = 6 points yielded 3 2PM, which is untrue as missed shots leads to rebounds and opportunities for fast breaks, but also offensive rebounding opportunities while made shots leads to dead ball situations.

It is even more hilarious that you are somehow pulling these hypothetical situations where Ellis would have had worse TS%. What made you say that?
Kobe in the 01, 02, 09 and 10 seasons had 55, 54, 56 and 55% in the regular season, numbers that are comparable/lower than the final numbers you posted. In fact, Kobe faced the 6ers (McKie/Snow/Bell), Nets (Kittles/Harris), Magic (Lee, Pietrus), and Celtics (Allen, Rondo, Pierce, Allen). These compared to who Duncan faced in his respective Finals in the form of NYK (Camby, Dudley, Thomas), Nets (Mutombo, Martin), Pistons (Wallace brothers), Cavs (Varajeo Ilgaukas), and you can see the difference. One faced 0 DPoY, the other faced multiples of them. So why is it that Ellis comparison is out of bounds while Duncan one is totally legit?

The responsibility part is even funnier. The entire Lakers offense ran through Shaq in 01 and 02 (not coincidentally Kobe's best in terms of TS%). Outside of 09, Kobe didn't have to carry any offense at all as he was either a 2nd banana to Shaq, or sharing equal billing with Pau. In 09, the offense went through Kobe because Pau was facing up D12, another DPoY. On the other hand, the entire Spurs office ran through Duncan in 99 and 03, Duncan shared that responsibility in 05, and the offense ran through Parker in 07 due to match ups. You also conveniently left out pace as a huge factor in the ppg argument, which is like saying you are a multi-billionaire because you converted all your money into Vietnam Dong and ignored the conversion rate.

You are right in one thing though, teams never defended Duncan the way they did to Kobe, because Kobe was a second banana who fed off of Shaq and the dominant frontline of MVPau/Odom/Bynum. I mean, which team EVER put two all-world defenders like the Wallace brothers on Kobe like they did to Duncan on one good ankle? Nobody did because they would have been destroyed by Shaq or MVPau. Looking at PPG as a sign of offensive responsibilities is about as hilarious as it gets, to say that it's a sign of greatness is even funnier. That's like saying Jerry Stackhouse was a bigger offensive force than Shaq in 2001 because he had a higher PPG, only an idiot and/or a Kobe fan would say something as stupid as that.

And Kobe, one of the greatest scorers in the history of the league led the league in PPG (remember, that is a sign of offensive greatest that you stated) by leading the league in scoring exactly twice in 16 years. In the same era of Allen Iverson (4 times), TMac (twice) and Durant (3 times). That's a lot of "greatest scorers in history in a 16 year span.

Finally, nice to absolutely avoid talking about ignoring the losing years and only counting Kobe's top 4 of 5 series while counting all 4 of Duncan's. Good for you.

[Brazil]

which is like saying you are a multi-billionaire because you converted all your money into Vietnam Dong and ignored the conversion rate.



:lol

[AchillesHeel]

amb going ham on these hoes

:lol Kirby stans