HoopsHype.com Publishes Top 50 Spurs of All Time

[Darius Bieber]

http://hoopshype.com/galleries/hoopshype/the-top-50-players-in-spurs-history

(Also includes Players from the Dallas and Texas Chaparrals.)


For those who don't want to go through a Slide-Show, here's the list:

50. Radoslav Nesterovic, 2003- 2006: 6.4 ppg, 6.0 rpg - One NBA title with Spurs.
49. Walter Berry, 1986-1988: 17.5 ppg, 5.4 rpg.
48. Gary Neal, 2010-2013: 9.7 ppg, 1.7 apg.
47. Dennis Rodman, 1993-1995: 5.6 ppg, 17.1 rpg, 2.2 spg.
46. Ron Boone, 1968-1971: 17.1 ppg, 5.3 rpg.
45. Rod Strickland, 1989-1992: 13.9 ppg, 8.2 apg.
44. Chuck Person, 1994-1998: 9.7 ppg, 3.9 rpg.
43. Glen Combs, 1968-1971: 19.4 ppg, 3.5 apg.
42. Charles Beasley, 1967-1971: 9.5 ppg, 3.1 apg.
41. Greg Anderson, 1987-1989 and 1995-1997: 8.4 ppg, 5.9 rpg.
40. Frank Brickowski, 1986-1990: 11.6 ppg, 5.6 rpg.
39. Richard Jefferson, 2009-2012: 11.2 ppg, 4.0 rpg.
38. Brent Barry, 2004-2008: 7.2 ppg, 2.2 rpg, 1.9 apg - One NBA title with Spurs.
37. Kawhi Leonard, 2011-present: 9.8 ppg, 5.5 rpg.
36. Dale Ellis, 1992-1994: 15.9 ppg, 3.6 rpg.
35. Johnny Dawkins, 1986-1989: 13.0 ppg, 5.6 apg.
34. Cincinnatus Powell, 1967-1970: 19.3 ppg, 9.0 rpg.
33. Antonio Daniels, 1998-2002: 7.7 ppg, 3.0 apg - One NBA title with Spurs.
32. Matt Bonner, 2006-present: 6.2 ppg, 3.3 rpg - One NBA title with Spurs.
31. DeJuan Blair, 2009-2013: 7.8 ppg, 5.8 rpg.
30. Coby Dietrick, 1972-1979 and 1982-1983: 6.8 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 2.3 apg.
29. Donnie Freeman 1970-1975: 20.5 ppg, 3.5 apg, 3.0 rpg.
28. Dave Greenwood, 1985-1989 and 1990-1991: 8.1 ppg, 7.1 rpg.
27. George Hill, 2008-2011: 9.9 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 2.4 apg.
26. Mike Gale, 1975-1981: 8.0 ppg, 4.5 apg.
25. Robert Horry, 2003-2008: 4.7 ppg, 3.4 rpg - Two NBA titles with Spurs.
24. Gene Banks, 1981-1985: 11.8 ppg, 6.3 rpg.
23. John Beasley, 1967-1972: 17.9 ppg, 11.0 rpg.
22. Michael Finley, 2005-2010: 9.3 ppg, 3.9 rpg - One NBA title with Spurs.
21. Billy Paultz, 1975-1980 and 1983: 14.0 ppg, 8.5 rpg.
20. Rich Jones, 1969-1975: 16.5 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.1 apg.
19. Malik Rose, 1997-2005: 7.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg - Two NBA titles with Spurs.
18. Mark Olberding, 1975-1982: 10.5 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 2.6 apg.
17. Vinny Del Negro, 1992-1998: 11.2 ppg, 3.6 apg.
16. Terry Cummings, 1989-1995: 14.4 ppg, 7.0 rpg.
15. Johnny Moore, 1980-1988 and 1989-1990: 9.4 ppg, 7.4 apg.
14. Willie Anderson, 1988-1995: 13.2 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 4.2 apg.
13. Larry Kenon, 1975-1980: 20.7 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 3.0 apg.
12. James Silas, 1973-1981: 16.7 ppg, 3.9 apg, 3.2 rpg.
11. Bruce Bowen, 2001-2009: 6.4 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 1.3 apg - Three NBA titles with Spurs.
10. Alvin Robertson, 1984-1989: 16.2 ppg, 5.4 rpg.
9. Artis Gilmore, 1982-1987: 16.1 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 1.8 bpg.
8. Mike Mitchell, 1981-1988: 20.1 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.4 apg.
7. Avery Johnson, 1991, 1992-1993 and 1994-2001: 10.1 ppg, 6.9 apg, 2.0 rpg - One NBA title with Spurs.
6. Sean Elliott, 1989-1993 and 1994-2001: 14.4 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 2.5 apg - One NBA title with Spurs.
5. Manu Ginobili, 2002-present: 14.9 ppg, 4.0 apg, 3.9 apg - Three NBA titles with Spurs.
4. Tony Parker, 2001-present: 17.1 ppg, 6.0 apg, 3.0 rpg - Three NBA titles with Spurs.
3. George Gervin, 1973-1985: 26.3 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 2.8 apg.
2. David Robinson, 1989-2003: 21.1 ppg, 10.6 rpg, 3.0 bpg - Two NBA titles with Spurs.
1. Tim Duncan, 1997-present: 20.2 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 2.2 bpg - Four NBA titles with Spurs.

[Libri]

The player who shall not be named made the list. :lol

[Libri]

And Kawhi is only two spots better than him.

[Brazil]

Where is cornerstone tbh?

[Darius Bieber]

And Kawhi is only two spots better than him.

To be fair, the list says Blair is better than both of them..

[timtonymanu]

Wow. Really a terrible list outside the top 15. No Stephen Jackson or Steve Kerr?
Finley over Horry?
RJ and Blair don't even belong on the list.

And Barry won two titles with the Spurs.

[Dverde]

Horry and Finley should be swapped. Blair and Jefferson shouldn't even be on it. Rodman should be higher. Del Negro should be lower. Oberto should be on there. Stephen Jackson (despite this last year) should be on it, too.

[Gino-Step]

Ginobili at only 5 is a travesty. He was considered better and more important to the spurs than Parker every year he played until the last two seasons. Short memory people.

[CitizenDwayne]

Ginobili at only 5 is a travesty. He was considered better and more important to the spurs than Parker every year he played until the last two seasons. Short memory people.

As Eddie Murphy would say, "What have you done for me lately?"

[Skull-1]

As Eddie Murphy would say, "What have you done for me lately?"


Earn Finals MVP....for the Heat.

[Kidd K]

Rodman should be higher.

I don't agree. The worst years of Rodman's career before he faded out were with the Spurs. He was better with the Bulls and the Pistons. The guy was incredibly unreliable with us, especially in the playoffs.


Ginobili at only 5 is a travesty. He was considered better and more important to the spurs than Parker every year he played until the last two seasons. Short memory people.

That's completely untrue. He was never considered "better and more important" until Parker picked up the plantar fasciitis and temporarily declined because of it which allowed Manu to shine brighter. It's like you didn't start watching outside of the last 3-4 years and think that's how it's always been until Manu got old.

[racm]

Ginobili was considered better in the 2005 run and I agree. Parker was more important from 2007-2009 then from 2012-now.

[cd021]

Earn Finals MVP....for the Heat.

Interesting, you mean Lebron James didn't earn the MVP for the Heat?:lol

Seriously the jokes old and has never really been amusing or even true. His struggles weren't the reason why we lost the NBA finals. Pop benching Duncan and Parker for 5 1/2 minute and watching the team struggle to score afterwards is a prime reason why things didn't go our way.

[ivanfromwestwood]

i would swap sean and bruce. BB locked down 4 different positions at times

[anakha]

Ginobili at only 5 is a travesty. He was considered better and more important to the spurs than Parker every year he played until the last two seasons. Short memory people.

That bolded statement hasn't been true since the 2008-2009 season and anybody sane knows it.

[eric365]

Ginobili was considered better in the 2005 run and I agree. Parker was more important from 2007-2009 then from 2012-now.

IMO :
2003 : Parker
2004 : Parker
2005 : Manu
2006 : Parker
2007 : Parker
2008 : Manu
2009 : Parker
2010 : Manu
2011 : Manu
2012 : Parker
2013 : Parker

5x all stars, 2x all-nba 2nd team, 1x all-nba 3 team and Finals MVP vs 2x all stars, 2x all-nba 3nd team

I thought the Parker vs Manu as an all time spurs (international succes not counting) was done.

[TMTTRIO]

Manu needs to be switched with even Sean Elliott on the list. Yes we won championships with Manu on this team but it was more of a team effort. Sean was probably more talented player.

[xmas1997]

Sean was definitely the Spurs 4 th best all time player and then Manu after him followed closely by Tony and Captain Late.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

Manu needs to be switched with even Sean Elliott on the list. Yes we won championships with Manu on this team but it was more of a team effort. Sean was probably more talented player.

You are fuckin crazy.

[Texas_Ranger]

If Blair is 31 and Bonner 32 then the Spurs really suck balls.

[CGD]

Lol at the ****** > Manu talk. Shows how young many here are. Before the MM Sean was persona not grata for many fans being accused of being soft and disappearing in big moments. A lot of the talk actually reminds me of the way folks shit on RJ. MM and his valiant fight against cancer changd the way he was regarded. Manu >>>>>>> ******

[CGD]

Lol at the ****** > Manu talk. Shows how young many here are. Before the MM Sean was persona not grata for many fans being accused of being soft and disappearing in big moments. A lot of the talk actually reminds me of the way folks shit on RJ. MM and his valiant fight against cancer changd the way he was regarded. Manu >>>>>>> ******

Wtf with the ****? That's supposed to be Sean Elliott

[romain.star]

1/ Jefferson and Blair are NOT among the Top 50 Spurs of all Time
2/ Manu is such a greater Spurs than Sean Elliott

[Brunodf]

:lol Bonner/Finley/Hill/Blair/Neal/RJ

[Skull-1]

Interesting, you mean Lebron James didn't earn the MVP for the Heat?:lol

Seriously the jokes old and has never really been amusing or even true. His struggles weren't the reason why we lost the NBA finals. Pop benching Duncan and Parker for 5 1/2 minute and watching the team struggle to score afterwards is a prime reason why things didn't go our way.


That is bs. Manu had 9 points and 8 turnovers in Game Six. Change either stat by one in a positive direction and we win.

Manu was a momentum killing, Heat point run enabling, poor decision making, bad shot jacking mess. He forgot how to dribble until Game Four...

[Skull-1]

Bruce should be ahead of Avery. It was the Big Four. We have been struggling to replace Bruce since he retired.

[cd021]

That is bs. Manu had 9 points and 8 turnovers in Game Six. Change either stat by one in a positive direction and we win.

Manu was a momentum killing, Heat point run enabling, poor decision making, bad shot jacking mess. He forgot how to dribble until Game Four...


Funny you mention B.S. You tried to pass of stat totals to compare Leonard and Ginobili's post season. Knowing full well how misleading and completely inaccurate it would be.

Leonard averaged 11 minutes more per game and played almost exclusively with either Duncan or Parker. Manu didn't have that luxury. Statistically this post season wasn't that much different from last post season in per minute production, Why people bash him now is odd.


In Game 1, Manu had 13 points and 3 assists for 8 points that's 24% of the Spurs offense. Leonard contributed 13% in 35 minutes, 5 minutes more than Manu played.

In Game 3 Manu had 7 points and 6 assists off the bench. His 6 assists accounted for 15 points. So he contributed 22 total points in 23 minutes thats nearly 20% of the teams total offense being produced by one player playing less than half of the game.


In Game 5, Manu had an incredible performance 24 points, and 10 assists. His 10 assists accounted for 25 points so he actually contributed 49 points in 33 minutes for 43% of the Spurs total offense. Leonard contributed 15.7 percent in 33 minutes.


In game 7 Manu had 18 points and 5 assists for 12 points thats 30 total points. 34% of the Spurs total offense. Leonard contributed 21.5% of offense.

In Games 2, 4, and 6 Manu played poorly but to say the Spurs would have been better off with out him is just laughable. And your assessment that he stunk up the entire series,save for game 5, is just not true. We wouldn't have won game 1 or game 5 without him and possibly game 3, with his play making accounting for 4 assisted 3 pointers allowing us to bury the Heat.

Manu is still a key player going forward. Until Leonard can carry an much bigger offensive responsibility on a more consistent basis ( like 16-18 ppg) Manu is still a member of the big 3 in my opinion. His ability to create offense for himself and others is invaluable and really the only player not named Parker or Duncan who can do that.

Take a look around, not many teams have 3 players who can do that.

Miami has Wade and James

OKC has Durant and Westbrook

Indiana doesn't really have anyone who fits that mold

The Clippers really only have Paul who can do that.

[Skull-1]

Did you seriously just write this trash? LMAO.

Leonard played his role and played within himself. He was CONSISTENTLY GOOD. Manu was the opposite and played at best INCONSISTENTLY. But the eye test says consistently bad.


Manu had one good game in the Finals. I would argue Leonard had at least six.

AND IN TOTAL STATS, not just averages, not just consistency...all of which Leonard also won..... Leonard kicked Ginobili's butt. Period. The end.

Leonard cannot be measured purely by point production. He is smart. He grabs rebounds that give the Spurs second chance points not seen in the stats. He steals. He doesn't jack up horrible shots early. He is patient and smart. He gets the ball to his team not the other team.

You are an idiot Manu homer. A ten year old....my ten year old....can see that Leonard was awesome and Manu sucked. Get with the program.

[anakha]

There should be a betting line for how many posts it takes for any thread in the Spurs forum to devolve into a Ginobili thread.

[Drom John]

Top 50+ WS as Spurs/Chaparrals
1) Tim Duncan
2) David Robinson
3) George Gervin
4) Tony Parker
5) Manu Ginobili
6) James Silas
7) Sean Elliott
8) Avery Johnson
9) Artis Gilmore
10) Larry Kenon
11) Bruce Bowen
12) John Beasley
13) Mike Mitchell
14) Mark Olberding
15) Vinny Del Negro
16) Billy Paultz
17) Johnny Moore
18) Alvin Robertson
19) Willie Anderson
20) Matt Bonner
21) Malik Rose
22) Terry Cummings
23) Gene Banks
24) Rich Jones
25) Cincinnatus Powell
26) Coby Dietrick
27) Brent Barry
28) Michael Finley
29) Donnie Freeman
30) Antonio Daniels
31) Swen Nater
32) Glen Combs
33) Robert Horry
34) Mike Gale
35) DeJuan Blair
36) Charles Beasley
37) Goo Kennedy
38) Rasho Nesterovic
39) Tiago Splitter
40) George Hill
41) Terry Porter
42) Dennis Rodman
43) Richard Jefferson
44) Dale Ellis
45) Will Perdue
46) Dave Greenwood
47) Rod Strickland
48) Fabricio Oberto
49) Ron Boone
50) Allan Bristow
51) Kawhi Leonard
58) Danny Green
67) Gary Neal
78) Stephen Jackson
84) Boris Diaw
129) Patty Mills
148) Nando De Colo
171) Cory Joseph
247) Aron Baynes

[Drom John]

Top 50+ PLAYOFF WS Spurs/Chaparrals
1) Tim Duncan
2) David Robinson
3) Manu Ginobili
4) Tony Parker
5) George Gervin
6) Bruce Bowen
7) Avery Johnson
8) Sean Elliott
9) Robert Horry
10) Kawhi Leonard
11) Johnny Moore
12) Brent Barry
13) Malik Rose
14) Michael Finley
15) John Beasley
16) Antonio Daniels
17) Vinny Del Negro
18) Danny Green
19) Terry Cummings
20) Stephen Jackson
21) Cincinnatus Powell
22) Nazr Mohammed
23) Fabricio Oberto
24) James Silas
25) Billy Paultz
26) Dennis Rodman
27) Mark Olberding
28) Willie Anderson
29) Matt Bonner
30) Boris Diaw
31) Larry Kenon
32) Tiago Splitter
33) Will Perdue
34) Charles Beasley
35) Mario Elie
36) Mike Mitchell
37) Chuck Person
38) DeJuan Blair
39) Coby Dietrick
40) Artis Gilmore
41) J. R. Reid
42) Mike Gale
43) George Hill
44) Swen Nater
45) Gary Neal
46) Gene Banks
47) Jaren Jackson
48) Antoine Carr
49) Glen Combs
50) Mike Green
76) Cory Joseph
99) Patty Mills
108) Nando De Colo
132) Aron Baynes
180) Tracy McGrady

[look_at_g_shred]

Top 50+ PLAYOFF WS Spurs/Chaparrals
1) Tim Duncan
2) David Robinson
3) Manu Ginobili
4) Tony Parker
5) George Gervin
6) Bruce Bowen
7) Avery Johnson
8) Sean Elliott
9) Robert Horry
10) Kawhi Leonard
11) Johnny Moore
12) Brent Barry
13) Malik Rose
14) Michael Finley
15) John Beasley
16) Antonio Daniels
17) Vinny Del Negro
18) Danny Green
19) Terry Cummings
20) Stephen Jackson
21) Cincinnatus Powell
22) Nazr Mohammed
23) Fabricio Oberto
24) James Silas
25) Billy Paultz
26) Dennis Rodman
27) Mark Olberding
28) Willie Anderson
29) Matt Bonner
30) Boris Diaw
31) Larry Kenon
32) Tiago Splitter
33) Will Perdue
34) Charles Beasley
35) Mario Elie
36) Mike Mitchell
37) Chuck Person
38) DeJuan Blair
39) Coby Dietrick
40) Artis Gilmore
41) J. R. Reid
42) Mike Gale
43) George Hill
44) Swen Nater
45) Gary Neal
46) Gene Banks
47) Jaren Jackson
48) Antoine Carr
49) Glen Combs
50) Mike Green
76) Cory Joseph
99) Patty Mills
108) Nando De Colo
132) Aron Baynes
180) Tracy McGrady

Damn...just shows you how vital Kawhi is and is going to be...

[xmas1997]

More Manu haters here too! What a bunch of whiny moronic idiots!

[Skull-1]

More Manu haters here too! What a bunch of whiny moronic idiots!

Shut it, you blind homer.

[cd021]

Shut it, you blind homer.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

The only blind one is you. You & your ridiculous logic that Manu cost us a title.

You even said that we would be better off if Manu hadn't played despite the post in which I detailed Manu's positive impact on our winning of game 1, Game 3 and Game 5.
He also had a big impact in game 7 in spite of his turnovers.

Once Again...

Game 1-24% Of the Spurs total offense (Points+Points off his Assists)

Game 3-20%-Of the Spurs total offense (Points+Points off his Assists)

Game 5-43%-Of the Spurs total offense (Points+Points off his Assists)

Game 7-34%-Of the Spurs total offense (Points+Points off his Assists)

The fact you chose to ignore it, is beyond me.

What do you expect when we have only two play making guards on the roster and one was limited due to calf injury and he is 35 and being trapped hard by an athletic & long forwards (Bosh and James). Neal, Leonard, and Green can't really create off the dribble or get the the rim on a consistent basis.

It was basically play Manu or play Neal. Neal is a bad defender and can't create the offense like Manu can for others. Spot up shooter are easier to cover, especially with the length and agility found in Miami's quick rotating defense.

You're becoming the worst Manu-basher on ST

only respond if you have an legitimate argument besides the "But....But... the Turnovers!!"

The Spurs need a 3rd play maker to take pressure off both Parker and Ginobili. Whether Beli, Joseph or even De Colo can become that is a big question mark. Until then Parker and Ginobili are really all we have on the perimeter.

So lay off because if he wasn't on the team or has an injury plagued season we'd be royally screwed. Our bench would be pretty mediocre without him. Joseph/Mills, Belineli, Diaw and Baynes/Pendergraph doesn't exactly scream top tier bench without him on it.

[Skull-1]

The turnovers were boneheaded and braindead I don't care about his point production against the third string bench when he is giving away at least as many, if not more, points to the other team clanking shots early in the clock he has NO BUSINESS TAKING IN THE FIRST PLACE. Throw in turnovers and wild passes that don't allow the shooter to take a shot and you have a disaster. You play with the numbers all you like. The eye test says it all. Manu was borderline horrendous. He did NOT have a good Finals and we nearly won any way by wearing ourselves out to overcome the disaster he was.

[RD2191]

I don't hate Manu but he was borderline unbearable to watch in the Finals, I honestly found myself questioning if Manu was throwing games, which is ridiculous of me to think.

[cd021]

Did you seriously just write this trash? LMAO.

Leonard played his role and played within himself. He was CONSISTENTLY GOOD. Manu was the opposite and played at best INCONSISTENTLY. But the eye test says consistently bad.


Manu had one good game in the Finals. I would argue Leonard had at least six.

AND IN TOTAL STATS, not just averages, not just consistency...all of which Leonard also won..... Leonard kicked Ginobili's butt. Period. The end.

Leonard cannot be measured purely by point production. He is smart. He grabs rebounds that give the Spurs second chance points not seen in the stats. He steals. He doesn't jack up horrible shots early. He is patient and smart. He gets the ball to his team not the other team.

You are an idiot Manu homer. A ten year old....my ten year old....can see that Leonard was awesome and Manu sucked. Get with the program.

Man, what a joke. How is contributing at least 20% of our total offense in 4 games equate to one good game in 7?


Leonard plays smart but his scoring is sporadic and can really only be effective when playing with both Parker and Duncan. He also benefited from Green draining 3 after 3 forcing Miami to pay much closer attention to him. They trapped Parker and looked to double Duncan in the post. Its kind of hard to fail in that setting especially with his talent. Manu was forced to play with Spitter, Diaw, Neal/ Joseph and either Green or Leonard (for small stretches) its not like they were playing with the same teammates and one struggled and one dominated.:lol

Its not like I'm saying Leonard didn't have a great series or isn't going to be a big part of our future, but he exceeded reasonable expectations, while Ginobili struggled to live up to lofty expectations. Its not 05' anymore he is in his late 20's and can attack the rim at will. He adapted by taking more 3pts using his ability to navigate screens and create space to get off his shot from the perimeter. In the 2010-2011 season, he was the Spurs leading scorer while attempting a career high in 3 pointers and made a career high, as well. Nearly a 1/3 of his scoring came from the beyond the arc. Fast forward to this past post season, he used the same method to try and contribute on offense. He hit 30% of his 3's but still managed to contribute positively by churching out assists at a career high rate (30% of the Spurs assists when he was on the floor) For example, in Game 5, his 10 assists, accounted for 25 points, while he scored and additional 24 points.


By the way, how exactly is grabbing boards and forcing turnovers undetectable in the stat?


I think its fairly clear who had more on his plate.

Leonard's job was to defend and hit 3's he did both very well and then some

But Manu's was to create open looks for every teammate and also be the 3rd option. With only 2 play makers on the Spurs (with playing Parker injured), don't you think it a bit unreasonable to ask for a 35 year old with a ton of millage to carry an offense against a top defense. He made mistakes but also made good plays that put us in position to win a title. Blame Pop for his fourth quarter, decision making in game 6, not Manu.


If you're program involves dumping on a player who; played hard, struggled at times, but found other ways to help his team get 1 minute of a title. He has done nothing in the past but win for us while being selfless and classy. Then I think i'll pass.

[cd021]

The turnovers were boneheaded and braindead I don't care about his point production against the third string bench when he is giving away at least as many, if not more, points to the other team clanking shots early in the clock he has NO BUSINESS TAKING IN THE FIRST PLACE. Throw in turnovers and wild passes that don't allow the shooter to take a shot and you have a disaster. You play with the numbers all you like. The eye test says it all. Manu was borderline horrendous. He did NOT have a good Finals and we nearly won any way by wearing ourselves out to overcome the disaster he was.

Playing with points and points off assists? Yeah I'm cooking up the number in Manu's favor. :lmao

We nearly won because Manu helped. It wasn't always pretty but he helped out.

So you can post numbers and its fact and I post better numbers and I'm doctoring them :lmao


"I don't care about his point production against the third string bench"

Must have been your 10 year old you came up with that. I didn't see Rashard Lewis suit up did you? Why would Miami play 3rd stringers in the Finals for 15-20 mpg:lmao

Your reaching in your comebacks...

[anakha]

We need the Ginobili equivalent of this (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144287) stickied in this forum.

[SpurAddict561]

lol@ Matt Bonner over Kawhi. I stopped looking over the last after that

[xmas1997]

Shut it, you blind homer.


No, just go back to your Lakers, or Mavs, or Heat forums, we don't need your Bandwagon BS here. We are Spurs fans here with intelligent takes for the most part. We don't need you here posing as Spurs fans except for comic relief! :lol

Geez, at least most of the bone headed posters have left and gone back to grade school now, but there is always the numbnut residue that have to be dealt with. :hat

cd021, very intelligent and astute posts, I applaud you. :clap
:flag:

[Skull-1]

Manu gave the Heat an equal or greater number of points than SA. Leonard contributed to the offense's scoring at a higher percentage than shown. You cherry picked points and assists. Never mind the multiple turnovers CAUSED BY BAD MANU PASSES BUT CHARGED TO OTHER PLAYERS. Or his horrible step back clangs that missed resulting in a two to six point swing for Miami, depending on how you factor it.

If I generate 33 percent of the offense but go 15 for 65 like Kobe Bryant I AM NOT HELPING THE TEAM, PARTICULARLY WHEN WE LOSE.



Also never mind the key rebounds and tip outs by Leonard where the offense reset and scored. These don't show up as points on the board like your cherry picked points and assists criteria.

The eye test has it. Manu stunk.

[Skull-1]

Also, let us not forget Leonard takes points away from the other team with his great defense. Manu gets lost, burned, and in general is a step slow on defense now.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

LOL @ Skull getting owned by logical statistics.

Obviously he isn't going 15-65 or else his ratings wouldn't be so high. Dumbass.

[Skull-1]

LOL @ Skull getting owned by logical statistics.

Obviously he isn't going 15-65 or else his ratings wouldn't be so high. Dumbass.


Close enough.


6-16
3-10 Lmao
3-11 Lmao
1-8 hahahahahaha
9-18 (his only decent game to help the homers pad stats)
3-8 (yawn....9 points.....8 turnovers!!)
8-17 (and four Q4 turnovers to go with it)

33 for 88? .375

Take out his only decent game and the dude shot 24 for 70. .342

Until Game 5 saved him he shot .288 which is strangely similar to my hyperbole of 15 for 65...

How many of those 55 bricks went the other way for Miami?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Close enough.


6-16
3-10 Lmao
3-11 Lmao
1-8 hahahahahaha
9-18 (his only decent game to help the homers pad stats)
3-8 (yawn....9 points.....8 turnovers!!)
8-17 (and four Q4 turnovers to go with it)

33 for 88? .375

Take out his only decent game and the dude shot 24 for 70. .342

Until Game 5 saved him he shot .288 which is strangely similar to my hyperbole of 15 for 65...

How many of those 55 bricks went the other way for Miami?

Why do you feel like you can just take out game five and make a valid argument? It shows your blatent ignorance that you cannot accept a logical statistic that matters because it goes against your argument.

How well did we do at the end of the regular season without Manu? That's right, we were on one of the worst slides in history.?

You're being ignorant. You don't realize that other than TP, Manu is our ONLY playmaker... that's why he had to play the point due to lack of depth.

You just sound stupid... and really young.

Just an FYI, you trash his game seven performance, yet he shot better than he did in game five.

[Skull-1]

Why do you feel like you can just take out game five and make a valid argument? It shows your blatent ignorance that you cannot accept a logical statistic that matters because it goes against your argument.

How well did we do at the end of the regular season without Manu? That's right, we were on one of the worst slides in history.?

You're being ignorant. You don't realize that other than TP, Manu is our ONLY playmaker... that's why he had to play the point due to lack of depth.

You just sound stupid... and really young.

Just an FYI, you trash his game seven performance, yet he shot better than he did in game five.


Played better than Game Five?? With four turnovers and three awful passes in the fourth quarter of Game Seven to spark the Heat? LMAO LMAO LMAO


I took out Game Five to illustrate the point, which remains with Game Five, frankly. The team was overcoming his stupidity at 2-2. He finally had a decent game, then had two more crap ones that were more than the team could compensate for.

If Manu can learn to be a facilitator and not a jackupathreewith20ontheshotclock has been then we have a chance. Otherwise expect more of the same, just worse.

[cd021]

Close enough.


6-16
3-10 Lmao
3-11 Lmao
1-8 hahahahahaha
9-18 (his only decent game to help the homers pad stats)
3-8 (yawn....9 points.....8 turnovers!!)
8-17 (and four Q4 turnovers to go with it)

33 for 88? .375

Take out his only decent game and the dude shot 24 for 70. .342

Until Game 5 saved him he shot .288 which is strangely similar to my hyperbole of 15 for 65...

How many of those 55 bricks went the other way for Miami?

What a absolute joke. I already showed you how valuable Manu's assists are.

I' going to show you exactly how effective Manu was and how little his turnovers did to hurt our chances of winning a title.

Game 1- 3 assists -8 points (2 assists for 3 pointers, from Neal and Green)

turnover

1.Bosh made 15 foot jumper=2 points

1 turnover=2 pts (Ginobili-13 pts- 8 points off assists=21 points)

Game 2- 1 Assist-2 points (to Duncan for a dunk)

Turnovers
1. Wade Misses 20 Foot Jumper=0 pts
2. Chris Anderson Made Layup=2pts
3. Allen 3pt FG-3pts

3 Turnovers=5 pts (5 pts, 2 pts off assists=7 pts)

Game-3-6 assists-15 points (3 assists for 3 pointers, 2 from Neal, & 1 for Parker)

Turnovers-
1. James makes layup=2pts
2. Miller makes 3pt FG=3pts

2 turnover for 5pts= (7 pts, 15 points off assists=21 pts)

Game 4- 2 Assists- 4 points (both assists to Duncan for layups)

Turnover

1 Wade Missed 20 foot jumper

1 turnover-0 pts (5 pts, 4 points off assists=9 pts)

Game-5-10 Assists-25 Points (4 assists for 3 pointers)

Turnovers-

1.Battier missed 3pt shot,
2. Wade Lost ball out of bounds
3. James 2 of 2 Made Free-throws=2 pts
2 pts on 3 turnovers (Ginobili 24 points, 25 points off assists=49 pts)

Game 6-3 Assists-6 Points-(2 layups for Duncan, 1 for Splitter)

1. Wade Missed 12 foot Jumper [Offensive rebound Battier Makes 3pt FG]=3 pts
2. Chalmers Travels=0 pts3. James Out of bound, T.O,=0 Pts
4.James Misses 16 Footer,=0 Pts
5. Lebron Steals and is fouled by Ginobili 2 FTM=2 Pts
6. James Misses 17 Foot jumper=0 Pts
7. James, Lost Ball, turnover,=0 Pts
8. Allen makes 2 of 2 free throws=2pts

8 turnovers 7 points off turnovers (Ginobili 9 pts, 6 pts off assists=15pts)

Game-7-5 assists, 12 points (2 assists for 3 pt 1 Leonard, 1 Diaw)
Turnovers:
1.James makes 17 Footer, =2 pts
2. James Makes 2 Free throw =2 pts
3. James Makes 1 of 2 Free-throws=1pt
4. Bosh turnover out of bounds

4 Turnovers, 5 pints scored (Ginobili 18 pts, 12 points off assists=30 pts)

Totals=7 games Vs. Miami

22 Turnovers

26-Points Off Turnovers

13-Extra FGA (Additional FG attempts from Miami created off Ginobili's turnovers)

7-Made FGs off Ginobili turnovers

1.1 Points Per Shot (very bad)

Manu-

81 -Points Scored (11.6 per game)

72-Points off assists (10 points off assists per game)

30-Assisted FG (4.3 per game)


Clearly his turnovers had minimal effect. Miami only attempted 13 shots despite 22 Ginobili turnovers and only connected on 7 in 7 games. Conversely Manu's points off assists factored in with his points scored actually contributed 21.8 PPG or 22.3 % of the spurs overall offense in the series while playing only 58% of the time in the series.

Please respond, I look forward to how a Manu basher finds away to discredit those irrefutable numbers.

[cd021]

Why do you feel like you can just take out game five and make a valid argument? It shows your blatent ignorance that you cannot accept a logical statistic that matters because it goes against your argument.

How well did we do at the end of the regular season without Manu? That's right, we were on one of the worst slides in history.?

You're being ignorant. You don't realize that other than TP, Manu is our ONLY playmaker... that's why he had to play the point due to lack of depth.

You just sound stupid... and really young.

Just an FYI, you trash his game seven performance, yet he shot better than he did in game five.

I hope Skull-1 is just trolling. He can't be this dumb.

I even discredited the "Manu turnovers" argument (still waiting for a reply) Manu had 22 turnovers in the series but Miami only scored 26 points off of them ,in 7 games. His assists are incredibly valuable. In game 5 he had 10 assists for 25 points, he also scored 24 points as well. If we were to factor in his assists valule with his scoring he would average almost 22 points per game.

[cd021]

Played better than Game Five?? With four turnovers and three awful passes in the fourth quarter of Game Seven to spark the Heat? LMAO LMAO LMAO


I took out Game Five to illustrate the point, which remains with Game Five, frankly. The team was overcoming his stupidity at 2-2. He finally had a decent game, then had two more crap ones that were more than the team could compensate for.

If Manu can learn to be a facilitator and not a jackupathreewith20ontheshotclock has been then we have a chance. Otherwise expect more of the same, just worse.

Miami only scored 5 points on his 4 turnovers in game 7, He accounted for 34% of the Spurs offense and his 5 assists accounted for 12 points alone and he scored 18 pts . Another one of your illogical comments.

How can you remove a game to prove your point? that is just wrong and you claim I doctored stats? :lol you just admitted that you did to prove a point that isn't even remotely true.


Game 1
Game 3
Game 5
Game 7

were all good games for Manu

Not just game 5 :lol

I really am starting to doubt that you watched the NBA finals now.

[Skull-1]

I hope Skull-1 is just trolling. He can't be this dumb.

I even discredited the "Manu turnovers" argument (still waiting for a reply) Manu had 22 turnovers in the series but Miami only scored 26 points off of them ,in 7 games. His assists are incredibly valuable. In game 5 he had 10 assists for 25 points, he also scored 24 points as well. If we were to factor in his assists valule with his scoring he would average almost 22 points per game.


And again..... If he only has four turnovers and they all come in the fourth and kill our momentum or spark a Heat rally then we are done. Context!


He took bad shots that killed our offense early in the shot clock leading to Miami going the other way.

He made bad passes that resulted in a turnover on himself, a turnover charged to the other player, no shot, or shot clock violation.

He bricked a ton of shots (55) a lot of which were early in the clock and wound up with Heat rebounds.


If Manu turns it over and Miami gets two points, that's a potential FIVE POINT OR FOUR POINT SWING, NOT JUST TWO. It forces our defense to get back which adds to the fatigue factor. It doesn't take time off the clock. All this favors a younger, faster Heat team.

You guys are so blind it astounds me. You cannot tell me that a shooting percentage in the 30s is remotely acceptable along with turnovers and bad passes with ridiculous bricks flying all over the place. The guy stunk.

[Skull-1]

Miami only scored 5 points on his 4 turnovers in game 7, He accounted for 34% of the Spurs offense and his 5 assists accounted for 12 points alone and he scored 18 pts . Another one of your illogical comments.

How can you remove a game to prove your point? that is just wrong and you claim I doctored stats? :lol you just admitted that you did to prove a point that isn't even remotely true.


Game 1
Game 3
Game 5
Game 7

were all good games for Manu

Not just game 5 :lol

I really am starting to doubt that you watched the NBA finals now.



AND THE SPURS SCORED ZERO. A POTENTIAL SWING OF 13 TO 17 POINTS.


I took out Game Five to prove that the trend in1-4 was not a fluke. That one game saved him from looking as bad as he really was. His series was bad even with Game Five.

[cd021]

Manu gave the Heat an equal or greater number of points than SA. Leonard contributed to the offense's scoring at a higher percentage than shown. You cherry picked points and assists. Never mind the multiple turnovers CAUSED BY BAD MANU PASSES BUT CHARGED TO OTHER PLAYERS. Or his horrible step back clangs that missed resulting in a two to six point swing for Miami, depending on how you factor it.

If I generate 33 percent of the offense but go 15 for 65 like Kobe Bryant I AM NOT HELPING THE TEAM, PARTICULARLY WHEN WE LOSE.


Also never mind the key rebounds and tip outs by Leonard where the offense reset and scored. These don't show up as points on the board like your cherry picked points and assists criteria.

The eye test has it. Manu stunk.


Unless you break down the tapes and re-credit assists and turnovers I'll stick with the professionals.:lol

Kawhi has little to no assist value simply because he doesn't assist. His postseason average is 1 assist to 1 turnover per game in 37 mpg.

Leonard really doesn't tip out much, he has massive hands and simply grabs them, rebounds credited to him are pretty accurate. Its not like he was Oberto or Chandler now with the Knicks.

I accounted for all of Manu's assists, Kawhi seldom had one.

His assists are valuable 12 points on 5 assists, 18 pts scored in Game 7

That "Kobe scores 30 and they lose stat" is overblown (this past season, at least ). Kobe had a strong offense season, The Lakers were a poor offensive team playing with a coach who ill suited their strengths. He actually benched Gasol in favor of Earl Clarke. They needed every point he game them because their defense was average at best. Not the best analogy.

Manu has always been on extremely effective player in part because of his ability score at a high rate and a high percentages. He is also an creative passer you frequently generates offense for other players.

He can't get to the rim like he once could or draw fouls but he his play-making is still incredibly impactful as I have shown you time and time a gain.

Wash your eyes, Men lie, Women Lie, Numbers don't...

[Skull-1]

Leonard was a beast. You dismiss the effect he had on denying points for the Heat, something seen with the eyes that stats can never capture.


Manu was out of control much of the series and it badly hurt us.


Your beloved professionals were all wondering on tv and in columns just what the hell was wrong with Manu.

[Skull-1]

K. Leonard was a beast. This isn't going to format well.... Darn it.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kawhi_leonard/game_by_game_stats.html


Date Opponent Result MIN FGM-A 3PM-A FTM-A OFF DEF REB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS



Jun 20 @ MIA4 L 88 - 95 45 8 - 17 1 - 4 2 - 4 4 12 16 0 1 1 2 2 19
Jun 18 @ MIA4 L 100 - 103 46 9 - 14 1 - 3 3 - 4 2 9 11 0 3 0 0 3 22
Jun 16 vs. MIA4 W 114 - 104 33 6 - 8 2 - 4 2 - 2 1 7 8 1 3 0 2 3 16
Jun 13 vs. MIA4 L 93 - 109 33 5 - 10 1 - 2 1 - 2 1 6 7 0 1 2 1 2 12
Jun 11 vs. MIA4 W 113 - 77 29 6 - 10 2 - 3 0 - 0 3 9 12 2 4 0 1 2 14
Jun 09 @ MIA4 L 84 - 103 33 4 - 12 1 - 3 0 - 1 8 6 14 2 1 0 1 2 9
Jun 06 @ MIA4 W 92 - 88 35 3 - 9 0 - 4 4 - 4 2 8 10 1 1 0 0 2 10


And you seriously think Manu was even close to as good as Leonard or consistent? Did I miss something?

[xmas1997]

Unless you break down the tapes and re-credit assists and turnovers I'll stick with the professionals.:lol

Kawhi has little to no assist value simply because he doesn't assist. His postseason average is 1 assist to 1 turnover per game in 37 mpg.

Leonard really doesn't tip out much, he has massive hands and simply grabs them, rebounds credited to him are pretty accurate. Its not like he was Oberto or Chandler now with the Knicks.

I accounted for all of Manu's assists, Kawhi seldom had one.

His assists are valuable 12 points on 5 assists, 18 pts scored in Game 7

That "Kobe scores 30 and they lose stat" is overblown (this past season, at least ). Kobe had a strong offense season, The Lakers were a poor offensive team playing with a coach who ill suited their strengths. He actually benched Gasol in favor of Earl Clarke. They needed every point he game them because their defense was average at best. Not the best analogy.

Manu has always been on extremely effective player in part because of his ability score at a high rate and a high percentages. He is also an creative passer you frequently generates offense for other players.

He can't get to the rim like he once could or draw fouls but he his play-making is still incredibly impactful as I have shown you time and time a gain.

Wash your eyes, Men lie, Women Lie, Numbers don't...

You're wasting your time trying to convince this bandwagon fan, he is just way too dense and ignorant to have an open mind to see the truth, that it was the whole team at one point or another.

[cd021]

And again..... If he only has four turnovers and they all come in the fourth and kill our momentum or spark a Heat rally then we are done. Context!


He took bad shots that killed our offense early in the shot clock leading to Miami going the other way.

He made bad passes that resulted in a turnover on himself, a turnover charged to the other player, no shot, or shot clock violation.

He bricked a ton of shots (55) a lot of which were early in the clock and wound up with Heat rebounds.


If Manu turns it over and Miami gets two points, that's a potential FIVE POINT OR FOUR POINT SWING, NOT JUST TWO. It forces our defense to get back which adds to the fatigue factor. It doesn't take time off the clock. All this favors a younger, faster Heat team.

You guys are so blind it astounds me. You cannot tell me that a shooting percentage in the 30s is remotely acceptable along with turnovers and bad passes with ridiculous bricks flying all over the place. The guy stunk.

I just showed you his turnovers had little to no actual impact. Momentum can't be quantified so why bring it up?

What we know

Manu turned the ball over 22 time in 7 games, Miami scored 26 points (incredibly bad efficiency). They only attempted 13 shots and hit 7 shots which suggest that most of these turnovers weren't the kind that allowed Miami to get out in transition and score easily. Its like a QB that in the 1st half of a season throws 12 TD's but has 7 interceptions. However of those 7 turnovers the opposing teams scored only 3 times for 13 points while he directly contributed 72 points to his team. 72 points scored to 13 points off T.O's is fairly comparable to Manu's 72 assists to 26 points off Turnovers.

Manu's mistakes had, overall, minimal effect on the Spurs. His play making had a clear, positive effect.

And how exactly was was it a 13-17 point swing? If he hadn't turned it over it would have been of 8-12 points at best. You also forgot to mention the steal Manu had and his smart decision to force Miami to closeout on him and throw a no look pass to Green who missed a clean look that would have given the Spurs the lead with less than 2 minutes remaining.

In the final 3 games of the series Manu shot 55% FG. He shot 43% overall (in the series) which isn't far off his regular season numbers.

Another stat doctored by Skull-1:lol

You should treat everyone who posted on this thread to a happy meal once we catch you making up another or exaggerating numbers for your arguments sake.

He took 31 shots 103 minutes not exactly and made 17 of those shots (in Games 5,6 & 7).

By the way, he took 60 shots in 200 minutes (for the series) that's a shot every 3.5 minutes. Thats about a shot once every 10 Spurs possessions. He took 8 shots per game in 28.6 mpg. Once again you are overstating things...

Not really "ridiculous bricks flying all over the place" now is it.:lmao

[Skull-1]

So Leonard had 115+ points if we count points plus assists and 78 rebounds.... With like....seven turnovers the ENTIRE series... So what's a rebound worth?

I also didn't doctor stats. I just posted total shots and total misses. That means every time he shot the ball, be it a layup or a three.


Factor the point swing however you want. A turnover to give Miami two points could have been a zero to four for the Spurs. I just went with two on the low side and three on the high. So four turnovers, assuming two points lost by SA for each, as an example, is eight the Spurs lose and eight the Heat get for a sixteen point swing. It could be way more or way less. At a fifty percent rate it is eight points. It is a highly subjective range, but when you lose by one or by five, eight is enough.

[Skull-1]

They're ridiculous bricks when you miss seven of eight shots in one game. Clang. Whang. Whiff.

[cd021]

Leonard was a beast. You dismiss the effect he had on denying points for the Heat, something seen with the eyes that stats can never capture.


Manu was out of control much of the series and it badly hurt us.


Your beloved professionals were all wondering on tv and in columns just what the hell was wrong with Manu.

Those columnists are the ones who ignored the spurs the entire year, I was referring to stat keepers. Genius:wakeup


Leonard's numbers can be quantified. Defensive rating, and by looking at the spurs 5 man lineups that included Leonard as opposed to the ones that didn't it would give an fairly accurate reading of how effective he was (I NEVER stated he was ineffective) Its on NBA.com/stats. Its too bad you don't look at advanced stats, you actually could craft an intelligent response.

[Skull-1]

Those columnists are the ones who ignored the spurs the entire year, I was referring to stat keepers. Genius:wakeup


Leonard's numbers can be quantified. Defensive rating, and by looking at the spurs 5 man lineups that included Leonard as opposed to the ones that didn't it would give an fairly accurate reading of how effective he was (I NEVER stated he was ineffective) Its on NBA.com/stats. Its too bad you don't look at advanced stats, you actually could craft an intelligent response.


Because advanced stats are just some weenie's attempt to say that grass is blue.

Manu was out of control. I wish I had the time and equipment to make a compilation of all his bad decisions. Perhaps someone can come up with an advanced stat for that and call it the TURNOBILI RATING.

[xmas1997]

Because advanced stats are just some weenie's attempt to say that grass is blue.

Manu was out of control. I wish I had the time and equipment to make a compilation of all his bad decisions. Perhaps someone can come up with an advanced stat for that and call it the TURNOBILI RATING.


Don't you ever have anything constructive to say?
Or do you get some sort of sadistic/masochistic pleasure in being so narrow minded, ignorant, and dense?
Just admit you are wrong and slink back to your cage.

[cd021]

Because advanced stats are just some weenie's attempt to say that grass is blue.

Manu was out of control. I wish I had the time and equipment to make a compilation of all his bad decisions. Perhaps someone can come up with an advanced stat for that and call it the TURNOBILI RATING.

Advanced stat revolutionized the way baseball is being played and is rapidly grown in every teams front office in the NBA. Yeah they are all wrong and you are all knowing.:lol Why do you think Memphis hired Hollinger? It wasn't because they wanted a "weenie" on payroll.