Does a player need to be a threat to score in order to effectively run an offense?

[Skull-1]

Kidd wasn't a prolific scorer but had a lot of assists. Could Manu do the same?


Discuss. (Or don't. Just a random question out of nowhere.)

[xmas1997]

Kidd wasn't a prolific scorer but had a lot of assists. Could Manu do the same?


Discuss. (Or don't. Just a random question out of nowhere.)

I'll weigh in on this.
The answer is no and an example was Avery Johnson on the '99 Spurs first championship team.
But it really depends on the teams offensive scheme.
However, if he is a score first PG like Chris Paul or TP, then it can put a whole lot more pressure on the other teams defense specifically testing their collective basketball IQ.

[Skull-1]

Then assuming Manu has lost a step and isn't the scoring threat he was as the Flying Spaghetti Monster.... Can he become a Johnson/Kidd facilitator with a reasonable expectation of success?

[Two10Whitey]

Then assuming Manu has lost a step and isn't the scoring threat he was as the Flying Spaghetti Monster.... Can he become a Johnson/Kidd facilitator with a reasonable expectation of success?

If he wants to stop turning the ball over every 2 minutes. I'm sure Kawhi will be scoring a bit more this year, so Manu won't have to stress about being a scoring threat. Hopefully Marco can contribute some decent scoring this year too.

[xmas1997]

He already has been for the 2nd team for quite a while now.
He is on the tail end of his career now, but even the great ones like him, or Kidd, are going to have their bad series, it is inevitable. After all he is a two time all star and should have been coMVP with TD in the 2005 championship.
IMHO we haven't seen the end of Manus' great play making yet.

[Skull-1]

If he wants to stop turning the ball over every 2 minutes. I'm sure Kawhi will be scoring a bit more this year, so Manu won't have to stress about being a scoring threat. Hopefully Marco can contribute some decent scoring this year too.


That is the issue. I wonder if focusing him in on facilitation would cut down on the TOs...

[Skull-1]

He already has been for the 2nd team for quite a while now.
He is on the tail end of his career now, but even the great ones like him, or Kidd, are going to have their bad series, it is inevitable. After all he is a two time all star and should have been coMVP with TD in the 2005 championship.
IMHO we haven't seen the end of Manus' great play making yet.


I see his effectiveness in the role declining as his scoring ability does. People sag off him daring him to beat them knowing he cannot or will not finish.

[xmas1997]

I see his effectiveness in the role declining as his scoring ability does. People sag off him daring him to beat them knowing he cannot or will not finish.


I hope other teams keep this up because, again, great players like him and Kidd will make them pay dearly more often than they will err or make TOs.

[Hoops Czar]

Sounds like a backdoor De Colo thread. In case it's not, Ginobili does so many of the little things to win games that he doesn't need to be a scorer. He just needs to keep the opposing defenses honest. If he has a shot, he should take. If the lane is open, he should drive. I don't think Manu was anywhere close to 100℅ in the playoffs but he's not going to make excuses for his poor play. He still has game and if Pop manages his minutes well during the regular season and he can stay relatively healthy, he can be a huge factor for the Spurs. He's not a washed up has been and he has the ability to be much better than he was in last year's finals. People have doubted him before his last extension, prior to singlehandingly get the Spurs into the playoffs in 2009. Yeah, he's older now and a little bit more banged up, but he still has the ability to help carry the Spurs for stretches at a time.

[Skull-1]

I have very little interest in DeColo.

[Skull-1]

Sounds like a backdoor De Colo thread. In case it's not, Ginobili does so many of the little things to win games that he doesn't need to be a scorer. He just needs to keep the opposing defenses honest. If he has a shot, he should take. If the lane is open, he should drive. I don't think Manu was anywhere close to 100℅ in the playoffs but he's not going to make excuses for his poor play. He still has game and if Pop manages his minutes well during the regular season and he can stay relatively healthy, he can be a huge factor for the Spurs. He's not a washed up has been and he has the ability to be much better than he was in last year's finals. People have doubted him before his last extension, prior to singlehandingly get the Spurs into the playoffs in 2009. Yeah, he's older now and a little bit more banged up, but he still has the ability to help carry the Spurs for stretches at a time.


Watching Tony Romo against the Giants Sunday night after he got crushed by two defenders and hurt....you would have noticed he was flinching a little for the first few possessions after it happened. Manu doesn't get foul calls like he used to but....is he shying away from contact in the same way?

He hasn't been the same since he broke his finger.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

That is the issue. I wonder if focusing him in on facilitation would cut down on the TOs...
You almost had respect from this thread. But of course you fuck it up lol

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

The answer: no Rondo is a prime example

[Hoops Czar]

Watching Tony Romo against the Giants Sunday night after he got crushed by two defenders and hurt....you would have noticed he was flinching a little for the first few possessions after it happened. Manu doesn't get foul calls like he used to but....is he shying away from contact in the same way?

He hasn't been the same since he broke his finger.

I don't know if he's shying away from contact. I do know that one of his biggest concerns are probably the hamstrings. Broken bones heal, but pulled hamstrings can linger. I think he said in an interview a year or two ago, that he was going to take more of a backseat role. In other words, be more of a passer and less of a scorer. I don't think the non calls are a big deal primarily because he doesn't drive as much as he used to. With that said, It's only natural for a player to be tentative initially but I do think the broken finger is pretty much a non issue.

[Skull-1]

You almost had respect from this thread. But of course you fuck it up lol



Easy now. Turnovers were mentioned by someone else. I just made an editorial comment.

[Skull-1]

I don't know if he's shying away from contact. I do know that one of his biggest concerns are probably the hamstrings. Broken bones heal, but pulled hamstrings can linger. I think he said in an interview a year or two ago, that he was going to take more of a backseat role. In other words, be more of a passer and less of a scorer. I don't think the non calls are a big deal primarily because he doesn't drive as much as he used to. With that said, It's only natural for a player to be tentative initially but I do think the broken finger is pretty much a non issue.

Hamstrings tend to become chronic. Miles Austin comes to mind, but that's football.

I think the lack of getting calls takes some incentive away from driving to the hoop, frankly, but...


Rondo was mentioned. The score first PG or threat-to-score PG would seem to be the one that keeps the D honest. But then you have Kidd, Stockton, Johnson, etc.. They were facilitate first guys...

Of the top eight ball handlers/PGs/offense-running SGs in the league I would suspect most are score first.

[Skull-1]

Also, would Diaw be an even better passer being more aggressive as a threat to score?

[kobexxx]

not at all times

[jestersmash]

Too many vague, loaded words here. What does "prolific" mean? And, would one example of a "non-prolific" scorer "effectively" running an offense (what does this mean? Is there some threshold assist to turnover ratio that constitutes "effective?") be enough to convince you? Two?

The question isn't really well-defined, but if you just want my casual analysis - no, I don't think Manu can replicate what Kidd did.

[PlayNando]

Kidd wasn't a prolific scorer but had a lot of assists. Could Manu do the same?


Discuss. (Or don't. Just a random question out of nowhere.)
oh look another manu hating thred by this weanker

[Skull-1]

Too many vague, loaded words here. What does "prolific" mean? And, would one example of a "non-prolific" scorer "effectively" running an offense (what does this mean? Is there some threshold assist to turnover ratio that constitutes "effective?") be enough to convince you? Two?

The question isn't really well-defined, but if you just want my casual analysis - no, I don't think Manu can replicate what Kidd did.


Vague, not loaded. If the answer requires something more specific then I was hoping the poster would provide it.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

oh look another manu hating thred by this weanker
Don't mind him. He didnt get enough attention when he wasa kid.

[PlayNando]

Don't mind him. He didnt get enough attention when he wasa kid.
word.........................

[barakz21]

I think it really depends on the scheme and the players on the floor. I never really got the basics(blame Jordan and the Bulls), so basically the only way I could score is if the PG goes TP and does a drive and drop. Or if I get lucky, get to the other end all alone on a fastbreak. What I'm saying is, players who are limited offensively sort of limit the offensive schemes that teams can run. On the other hand, those teams will be able to run those schemes to perfection nearly 100% of the time, compared to teams who have a lot more on their plate. Essentially, they're doing more with less. But, I've never played a lot of competitive basketball, so what do I know? That's just my 2 cents.

[Skull-1]

I think it really depends on the scheme and the players on the floor. I never really got the basics(blame Jordan and the Bulls), so basically the only way I could score is if the PG goes TP and does a drive and drop. Or if I get lucky, get to the other end all alone on a fastbreak. What I'm saying is, players who are limited offensively sort of limit the offensive schemes that teams can run. On the other hand, those teams will be able to run those schemes to perfection nearly 100% of the time, compared to teams who have a lot more on their plate. Essentially, they're doing more with less. But, I've never played a lot of competitive basketball, so what do I know? That's just my 2 cents.


Well said. This cuts to the heart of my question. A PG or ball handler that is a threat to score can collapse a defense, a la Parker, opening up lanes and looks for shooters. But with a different scheme that relies on ball and player movement the lanes and shots also open up. But if the defenders stay home on the shooters and don't buy into a handler who can't drive, then the offense breaks down.

Or does it?

Manu, when he is on, can pass the ball anywhere. Is that enough of a threat to keep people off guard or with a guy like that does his man just say, "Bring it"?

[barakz21]

Personally, I think it's the latter. Of course, it used to be the former in seasons past. But Manu this past season has been pretty much Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Unfortunately, he's been more Hyde then Jekyll, so most defenders would probably go "bring it". Case in point, the finals. And just to be clear, I am not bashing Manu.

[racm]

Kidd created a lot of assists through his ability to coordinate a fastbreak and his size allowing him to grab rebounds and fling outlet passes. That was why that Nets team was perfect for him - a mostly young and athletic group.

As long as Manu's deep ball makes a recovery (I think his shooting woes were created by him playing through two hamstring injuries) he should be a enough of a threat to run the second unit offense. Of course, Parker/Duncan/Leonard should be the focus of the starter's offense, with Green and Splitter as the designated shooter and close-up finisher respectively.

And if this is gonna be another Manu hate thread please tone it down. The offseason is winding down and it's soon time to see whether you guys are vindicated or not. Let's give the balding Argentinian the benefit of the doubt for now; do you really think he received his thirty pieces of silver from Pat Riley to give Miami their third?

[HI-FI]

Manu can be good for us in spurts throughout the RS, but I can't believe people think he'll come through in the playoffs. Those days are gone. Perhaps for one game out of a series. But we all have to pray hail mary's that he doesn't get hurt, or turn the ball over in crunch time. At this point we just need him to speak Spanish while holding a bottle of HEB salsa verde, sell some tickets and hold the fort down occasionally.

I'm hoping more that Bellinelli and Nando take a step forward, because I think Manu has reached his limit. If he can stay healthy, massive If, then we'll see what he is capable of but I'm hoping those other two can at least be poor man Ginobili's, because that's better than what we got this year.

[racm]

Manu can be good for us in spurts throughout the RS, but I can't believe people think he'll come through in the playoffs. Those days are gone. Perhaps for one game out of a series. But we all have to pray hail mary's that he doesn't get hurt, or turn the ball over in crunch time. At this point we just need him to speak Spanish while holding a bottle of HEB salsa verde, sell some tickets and hold the fort down occasionally.

I'm hoping more that Bellinelli and Nando take a step forward, because I think Manu has reached his limit. If he can stay healthy, massive If, then we'll see what he is capable of but I'm hoping those other two can at least be poor man Ginobili's, because that's better than what we got this year.

Can't really disagree here. I think the key is that he has to rein in his reckless playing style, but that was what made him a threat in his prime.

I'd still trust him over RJ though.

[HI-FI]

Can't really disagree here. I think the key is that he has to rein in his reckless playing style, but that was what made him a threat in his prime.

I'd still trust him over RJ though.
:lol
I don't think you'd find any argument from anyone on here, except people who take vacation pics like this.....
http://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Richard-Jefferson-Luke-Walton-Basketball-Players-Bromance-Vacation-1.jpg
sorry :depressed this pic always scars people.

[Skull-1]

My eyes! My eyes!!!!

[exstatic]

Rajon Rondo

[barakz21]

RJ DOES look gay here, even without the other dudes. Oh, good times (making fun of him, before thee 09 season began)

[cd021]

The answer: no Rondo is a prime example

That is somewhat outdated. Rondo can hit jumpers now. It takes time for his reputation to change like Parkers did.

The better example would be Ricky Rubio.

[SpurSwag]

Great topic OP, something we can actually talk about that doesn't lead to 6, Kobe > Duncan or any of that bs. I don't think you need to be a scorer to be an asset but imo you need to be able to hit open 3's. I've thought this for a while with the way the league is moving and the perfect example was the playoffs this year. I knew the Spurs would beat memphis so easily because they didn't have any shooters who could make us pay for doubling. There's a reason Miami and the Spurs were in the finals, they both shoot the long ball so efficiently to complement their best all around players

[Gagnrath]

A player doesn't need to be a threat to score to facilitate an offense. That said some of it also depends on his role in the offense there really does need to be someone on the floor that can reliably create a good shot. The spurs second team with Manu, Joseph, and Bellinelli some combination of Diaw, Pendegraph, Splitter, and/or Baynes, doesn't have anyone that can regularly create their own shot. Which pretty much means that at least one of Kawhi, Parker, or Duncan is on the floor with the second team much of the time.

Manu used to be that guy and for the last couple of years neal relased some of that pressure as well. You can also mask it somewhat with good ball movement, unless bellinelli is a much better ball handler than I think this role of primary on the second team is goign to be shared between Joseph who is 2 years away from it and manu who is 2 years to done.

[anakha]

Stockton may not have been a threat to score one on one, but he ran the pick and roll so effectively that he had to be accounted for at all times in that play.

[diego]

kidd had either a team full of young athletes, dominant scorers like vince/dirk/melo, and also a good 3pt shot in the last years. when he shot terribly from 3p% (like last year), he wasnt very effective now was he?

Up until a couple years ago manu didnt need another scorer, because he took that role and would only pass once the d focused on him. Now he needs another scorer on the floor with him so the defense cant just collapse on him. And since his 3pt shot was terrible this playoffs (an injury related anomaly or a permanent loss?), the heat could very easily focus on just taking his passing lanes away.

I think if manu can get his legs under him to recover his shooting %, beli/splitter/green/leonard can draw more defensive attention, between those two things manu should be able to find more space to operate and make his passes. The heat trapped manu with impunity, but manu wasnt the only one who didnt make them pay (splitter being the main culprit IMO). And I think not getting calls definitely makes a huge influence, one because you drive less so you rely more on passing and shooting to break the defense and two because you get caught by traps more if you think the refs wont call contact on the perimeter. Other old guards like Kidd or Kobe get much more respect in that sense than manu ever will past or present.

[diego]

stockton was a great shooter playing with a physically dominant scoring forward. Of course he was accounted for!

[Skull-1]

Well a shooter would help Manu, but I just don't think he can live on passing ability alone.

[xmas1997]

Well a shooter would help Manu, but I just don't think he can live on passing ability alone.

Why do you have to whine about Manu on every single thread?
This thread isn't even about that. You should have worded it different if you wanted it to be about him.

[Skull-1]

Shut the f--k up you illiterate atheistic moron. Diego mentioned Manu and I responded. Get lost. You screw up every thread you are in.

[xmas1997]

Sounds like someone is butthurt again.
If you can't handle the heat then get out of the kitchen!
Or better yet, go back to the Mavs forum where you came from!

[Skull-1]

Sounds like someone is butthurt again.
If you can't handle the heat then get out of the kitchen!
Or better yet, go back to the Mavs forum where you came from!And if you can't keep the facts straight then shut your mf'ing cakehole!

[xmas1997]

AJ seems a perfect fit.

[Yuixafun]

Being a good at passing is not enough, the threat of scoring is a must.

Because then defenses can just set up obviously, overload etc.. really muddles an offense.


And in regards to Kidd and Manu... way different players.

Manu will never be able to transition into a pure facilitator, he was a playmaker due to his dynamic scoring ability.

Your game can evolve to highlight different aspects, bring them to the forefront, but you cannot reinvent your nature.


And also.... Once someone has become a "Giant Tree..." DO you really believe they can accept being put into a "Flowerpot?"


Manu should retire and I used to love his game so much, 2005 Manu brought so much joy.

I'm sorry to say that it can only get worse with him.

It's like With Manny Pacquiao - Manu lost the eye of the Tiger, and his physical skills have diminished.

That's death to an elite athlete.

Your spirit, mental, and body are evaporating.


If he were stronger man maybe he could reclaim lost territory, active dormant factories within his body, (Mr. Tim Duncan) but at this point I don't see it.


Sorry I know I strayed from the topic, but the sheer stupidity of game 6 has ruined me on Manu forever whatever came before.

It was not just bad play.

It was murder. Like premeditated.

[Skull-1]

Hard to argue against any of your points, Yuixa.

[xmas1997]

Why is this thread another bash Manu thread?
Aren't there enough of those already?

[look_at_g_shred]

Nope.

[Skull-1]

Nope.

[Venti Quattro]

Nope

[TheGreatYacht]

Being a good at passing is not enough, the threat of scoring is a must.

Because then defenses can just set up obviously, overload etc.. really muddles an offense.


And in regards to Kidd and Manu... way different players.

Manu will never be able to transition into a pure facilitator, he was a playmaker due to his dynamic scoring ability.

Your game can evolve to highlight different aspects, bring them to the forefront, but you cannot reinvent your nature.


And also.... Once someone has become a "Giant Tree..." DO you really believe they can accept being put into a "Flowerpot?"


Manu should retire and I used to love his game so much, 2005 Manu brought so much joy.

I'm sorry to say that it can only get worse with him.

It's like With Manny Pacquiao - Manu lost the eye of the Tiger, and his physical skills have diminished.

That's death to an elite athlete.

Your spirit, mental, and body are evaporating.


If he were stronger man maybe he could reclaim lost territory, active dormant factories within his body, (Mr. Tim Duncan) but at this point I don't see it.


Sorry I know I strayed from the topic, but the sheer stupidity of game 6 has ruined me on Manu forever whatever came before.

It was not just bad play.

It was murder. Like premeditated.BOOM! Nuke bomb.

I used to love Manu as well. Although I've never been a Manutard like most posters on this forum, I kept having faith and beleiving in him until Game 6 happened. Little did I know that his declining 3PT and FT percentages throughout the year would come back to haunt us. Add to that all the things that Manu has said throughout the offseason such as "so-and-so," "I will no be fueled by revenge" and "I don't want to go after Lebron."

Your comment is dead on. "Manu has lost the eye of the Tiger." I called it earlier right after Game 6 that Manu had lost his passion for the game but most ppl on ST labeled me as being crazy or a troll.

[xmas1997]

BOOM! Nuke bomb.

I used to love Manu as well. Although I've never been a Manutard like most posters on this forum, I kept having faith and beleiving in him until Game 6 happened. Little did I know that his declining 3PT and FT percentages throughout the year would come back to haunt us. Add to that all the things that Manu has said throughout the offseason such as "so-and-so," "I will no be fueled by revenge" and "I don't want to go after Lebron."

Your comment is dead on. "Manu has lost the eye of the Tiger." I called it earlier right after Game 6 that Manu had lost his passion for the game but most ppl on ST labeled me as being crazy or a troll.

What, you're not a troll? Everyone on this site told me you were.
They can't all be wrong.

[Skull-1]

BOOM! Nuke bomb.

I used to love Manu as well. Although I've never been a Manutard like most posters on this forum, I kept having faith and beleiving in him until Game 6 happened. Little did I know that his declining 3PT and FT percentages throughout the year would come back to haunt us. Add to that all the things that Manu has said throughout the offseason such as "so-and-so," "I will no be fueled by revenge" and "I don't want to go after Lebron."

Your comment is dead on. "Manu has lost the eye of the Tiger." I called it earlier right after Game 6 that Manu had lost his passion for the game but most ppl on ST labeled me as being crazy or a troll.


Exactly. But the homers just deny deny deny.