FYI...

[racm]

If you're gonna shit on Manu Ginobili for being his usual streaky reckless self in the Finals, you should also blame Tony Parker for disappearing in Games 6 and 7, and Danny Green by association. Tiago for being too much of a burden against a small team when he and Timmy were meant to have the size advantage. Kawhi for missing that free throw. Neal for being a chucker. Diaw for not shooting enough. And most of all Pop for over-adjusting and gambling on the percentages.

The San Antonio Spurs won and lost as a team is what I'm saying.

[Skull-1]

Parker wilted. But dude.... Eight turnovers? And then he gets it somewhat together only to throw four picks and a couple ill-timed fourth quarter bricks early in the clock with the title on the line????

[capek]

Fuck your FYI clown!

[Skull-1]

Fuck your FYI clown!


Whats an "FYI clown"? Sounds weird.

[HI-FI]

There's blame to go around, no doubt. No one was perfect, Duncan missed those layups, Kawhi with the FT miss (which tbh, I was surprised he made one, considering the pressure at his age). Parker definitely went into heroball mode too often but I think we're all numb to it by now.

But imo Pop and Manu deserve the lion share of blame. Ultimately I have to blame Pop, the buck stops with him. As historically bad as Manu was, Pop kept sticking with him, scared to try out something else. And as historically bad, Dead Sea Scrolls shit enshrined as Manu was, he wasn't the one to pull Duncan when all we needed was a friggin rebound. If it starts from the top then Pop deserves his props for doing some great things this year but he also shit the bed royally, sad as it is to say.

[racm]

Fuck your FYI clown!

:tu :lol

[racm]

There's blame to go around, no doubt. No one was perfect, Duncan missed those layups, Kawhi with the FT miss (which tbh, I was surprised he made one, considering the pressure at his age). Parker definitely went into heroball mode too often but I think we're all numb to it by now.

But imo Pop and Manu deserve the lion share of blame. Ultimately I have to blame Pop, the buck stops with him. As historically bad as Manu was, Pop kept sticking with him, scared to try out something else. And as historically bad, Dead Sea Scrolls shit enshrined as Manu was, he wasn't the one to pull Duncan when all we needed was a friggin rebound. If it starts from the top then Pop deserves his props for doing some great things this year but he also shit the bed royally, sad as it is to say.

Exactly. Granted, you can't help but overcoach against the team with the best player in the series, but Pop can be blamed for playing the percentages and choosing to focus on contesting a possible 3. The team also has to be on the dock for letting the Heat close the gap with a flurry of 3s in the 4th.

My point is that the Spurs know they lost and instead of pointing fingers as we fans are wont to do, have implicitly accepted that they lost as a team and that to get back they should focus on improving as a team.

[Skull-1]

There's blame to go around, no doubt. No one was perfect, Duncan missed those layups, Kawhi with the FT miss (which tbh, I was surprised he made one, considering the pressure at his age). Parker definitely went into heroball mode too often but I think we're all numb to it by now.

But imo Pop and Manu deserve the lion share of blame. Ultimately I have to blame Pop, the buck stops with him. As historically bad as Manu was, Pop kept sticking with him, scared to try out something else. And as historically bad, Dead Sea Scrolls shit enshrined as Manu was, he wasn't the one to pull Duncan when all we needed was a friggin rebound. If it starts from the top then Pop deserves his props for doing some great things this year but he also shit the bed royally, sad as it is to say.



This!!!!!!!!

[capek]

:tu :lol

If only TP hadn't pulled his hammy!! :cry

If only...

If only...

If only...

If only...

...:cry

[racm]

If Manu had Green's health guys like Skull-1 wouldn't be wanting to pop a shot into him when they see him on the Riverwalk tbh

:lol

[Skull-1]

If Manu had Green's health guys like Skull-1 wouldn't be wanting to pop a shot into him when they see him on the Riverwalk tbh

:lol


More like pop a cap. I save my shots for women in videos. :lol

[xmas1997]

Exactly. Granted, you can't help but overcoach against the team with the best player in the series, but Pop can be blamed for playing the percentages and choosing to focus on contesting a possible 3. The team also has to be on the dock for letting the Heat close the gap with a flurry of 3s in the 4th.

My point is that the Spurs know they lost and instead of pointing fingers as we fans are wont to do, have implicitly accepted that they lost as a team and that to get back they should focus on improving as a team.

This has been the point I, and most of the rest of us who see things in a rational positive manner, have been saying, and arguing, all along. Regardless of if this, or if that, or who did what, or how much, or how little, or even how tired, the simple fact is they lost as a team.
And we should also give the Heat some credit too for taking it away when they had the opportunity to do so.
I mean there were two teams out there and the Heat simply out played our team when it counted, at the end.
I am not too proud not to admit this fact, as unfortunate as it turned out to be.
I am still proud of the Spurs though for making it that far when they were not supposed to be there by all accounts and predictions, they defied the odds and very nearly pulled it off for a 5th ring!

[Skull-1]

Outplayed and out thought. Kept their cool under pressure while we wet ourselves.

[DJR210]

Just when I thought I was over this..

[xmas1997]

You've also got to figure AGE had something to do with it, and luck.
The Spurs were spent after game 6, in fact toward the end of game 6. It looked like to me TD could barely stand. I imagine Manu was the same otherwise he doesn't normally make so many errors, but the Heat having the younger big 3, were flat out lucky there was an age and a fatigue factor involved.
IMHO had the age factors been equal, in other words both teams in their prime, the Spurs take it in 5 games!

[Skull-1]

Which is why heat check shots early in the clock that went clang killed us.....

[xmas1997]

And as much as I hate to say it, because I don't really like the guy, Wade, as improbable as it was, rose to the occasion.
I mean I thought for sure the Spurs had it once Wade wore down due to injuries, but he somehow managed to show up when it counted most, damn it!

[Kidd K]

Again with this shit? No, it doesn't work that way because unlike everybody else on the team, Manu performed WAY BELOW expectations. One good game, one average game with a shitty closeout, four garbage ass games where he was practically a ghost, and one game that was so horrendously played that it will forever be remembered as the Spurs' version of Buckner letting the ball roll through his legs.

Fuckin Danny Green deserves blame? Lmao, he sets an NBA Finals record for threes made on a godly % and you think he deserves blame? A 37 year old Duncan who was pretty much our best player of the series deserves blame? A Parker who despite his injuries and carrying us to the Finals didn't shit the bed with handling the ball like Ginobili did deserves as much blame? Leonard deserves blame for missing a free throw when that miss wouldn't have even mattered had GINOBILI not missed his on the possession right before that? Diaw, a role player nobody expected anything from, deserves blame when he locked down LeBron James multiple times?

Get the fuck outta here. Manu by far performed worst of anyone on the team from an expectation standpoint. Even if you had lowered expectations, he still underperformed. Look at his numbers for christ's sake. Game 1-4, shit numbers. Game 6: TERRIBLE numbers. Game 7: Barely average numbers but shat the bed at the end anyway. Dude only had one good game and otherwise underperformed and let us down every single night.

[Skull-1]

Wade faked it for his legacy. Like the pitcher with the red sharpie.

[Skull-1]

Again with this shit? No, it doesn't work that way because unlike everybody else on the team, Manu performed WAY BELOW expectations. One good game, one average game with a shitty closeout, four garbage ass games where he was practically a ghost, and one game that was so horrendously played that it will forever be remembered as the Spurs' version of Buckner letting the ball roll through his legs.

Fuckin Danny Green deserves blame? Lmao, he sets an NBA Finals record for threes made on a godly % and you think he deserves blame? A 37 year old Duncan who was pretty much our best player of the series deserves blame? A Parker who despite his injuries and carrying us to the Finals didn't shit the bed with handling the ball like Ginobili did deserves as much blame? Leonard deserves blame for missing a free throw when that miss wouldn't have even mattered had GINOBILI not missed his on the possession right before that? Diaw, a role player nobody expected anything from, deserves blame when he locked down LeBron James multiple times?

Get the fuck outta here. Manu by far performed worst of anyone on the team from an expectation standpoint. Even if you had lowered expectations, he still underperformed. Look at his numbers for christ's sake. Game 1-4, shit numbers. Game 6: TERRIBLE numbers. Game 7: Barely average numbers but shat the bed at the end anyway. Dude only had one good game and otherwise underperformed and let us down every single night.
See, now this is a real take. A man's take. And dead nuts on. I should bold the whole f---ing thing!!!

[xmas1997]

Man, I get so tired of reading the bullshit!!!!!!
The bottom line is the Spurs lost, not just Manu, or Pop, or Kawhi, or Green, or Tiago, or anyone else.
The Spurs as a team lost. The Heat as a team won. End of story!
Last I heard, basketball was a TEAM sport.
If you want a scapegoat then go watch an individuals sport like golf, or bowling, or tennis!
Then you can blame it ALL on one person.

[Skull-1]

Again with this shit? No, it doesn't work that way because unlike everybody else on the team, Manu performed WAY BELOW expectations. One good game, one average game with a shitty closeout, four garbage ass games where he was practically a ghost, and one game that was so horrendously played that it will forever be remembered as the Spurs' version of Buckner letting the ball roll through his legs.

Fuckin Danny Green deserves blame? Lmao, he sets an NBA Finals record for threes made on a godly % and you think he deserves blame? A 37 year old Duncan who was pretty much our best player of the series deserves blame? A Parker who despite his injuries and carrying us to the Finals didn't shit the bed with handling the ball like Ginobili did deserves as much blame? Leonard deserves blame for missing a free throw when that miss wouldn't have even mattered had GINOBILI not missed his on the possession right before that? Diaw, a role player nobody expected anything from, deserves blame when he locked down LeBron James multiple times?

Get the fuck outta here. Manu by far performed worst of anyone on the team from an expectation standpoint. Even if you had lowered expectations, he still underperformed. Look at his numbers for christ's sake. Game 1-4, shit numbers. Game 6: TERRIBLE numbers. Game 7: Barely average numbers but shat the bed at the end anyway. Dude only had one good game and otherwise underperformed and let us down every single night.

BEST take ever.

[SpurSpurSpurs]

It's less than a month before the new season and here we are, still talking about that Finals loss?

MOVE ON SON!

[look_at_g_shred]

With as much blame as the spurs as a whole are getting here you would think we got swept. The bottom line is this, even with all the mistakes our team made, we could've easily won the series, and we were the better team. No one will admit it. The Heat know it. The Spurs know it. We know it.

[Dex]

God, I'm so sick of thinking about this shit.

[cd021]

Manu's game 7 wasn't nearly as bad in retrospect. Parker had 10 points and looked out of it. Manu is the only other play maker on the team. His 5 assists helped put 12 points on the board. Green not being able to dribble and his 3pt shot going south made him a liability on offense. Neal is just to short to be effective against long teams like Miami and OKC late in games when they clamp down. He also scored 18 pts on 8-14 shooting. Miami's trapping and switching on screens along with their collective length and athleticism made it even tougher for him to make plays.

His performance reminded me of Duncan's 10-25 FG game 7 against Detroit. He struggled but still made positive contributions to give us a chance to win (we won that, but unfortunetly lost this one)

He even stole and inbound pass & dribbled out the 3pt line. Forced a defender to pick between closing out on him or Green (he close to close of Manu) before shoveling a bass to Green for a wide open 3 that would have given us the lead with 2 minutes to go.

[xmas1997]

Manu's game 7 wasn't nearly as bad in retrospect. Parker had 10 points and looked out of it. Manu is the only other play maker on the team. His 5 assists helped put 12 points on the board. Green not being able to dribble and his 3pt shot going south made him a liability on offense. Neal is just to short to be effective against long teams like Miami and OKC late in games when they clamp down. He also scored 18 pts on 8-14 shooting. Miami's trapping and switching on screens along with their collective length and athleticism made it even tougher for him to make plays.

His performance reminded me of Duncan's 10-25 FG game 7 against Detroit. He struggled but still made positive contributions to give us a chance to win (we won that, but unfortunetly lost this one)

He even stole and inbound pass & dribbled out the 3pt line. Forced a defender to pick between closing out on him or Green (he close to close of Manu) before shoveling a bass to Green for a wide open 3 that would have given us the lead with 2 minutes to go.

I don't know why some on here criticize your analyzations of the stats and facts on here because you are dead on.
Could it be because some on here think you don't make a scapegoat of and blame Manu enough?

[cd021]

Again with this shit? No, it doesn't work that way because unlike everybody else on the team, Manu performed WAY BELOW expectations. One good game, one average game with a shitty closeout, four garbage ass games where he was practically a ghost, and one game that was so horrendously played that it will forever be remembered as the Spurs' version of Buckner letting the ball roll through his legs.

Fuckin Danny Green deserves blame? Lmao, he sets an NBA Finals record for threes made on a godly % and you think he deserves blame? A 37 year old Duncan who was pretty much our best player of the series deserves blame? A Parker who despite his injuries and carrying us to the Finals didn't shit the bed with handling the ball like Ginobili did deserves as much blame? Leonard deserves blame for missing a free throw when that miss wouldn't have even mattered had GINOBILI not missed his on the possession right before that? Diaw, a role player nobody expected anything from, deserves blame when he locked down LeBron James multiple times?

Get the fuck outta here. Manu by far performed worst of anyone on the team from an expectation standpoint. Even if you had lowered expectations, he still underperformed. Look at his numbers for christ's sake. Game 1-4, shit numbers. Game 6: TERRIBLE numbers. Game 7: Barely average numbers but shat the bed at the end anyway. Dude only had one good game and otherwise underperformed and let us down every single night.

Manu performance wasn't really out of the norm, considering how he played this season. Erratic and occasionally brilliant. BTW Game 1 & Game 3 were good games. Game 2, 4, and 6 were poor games.

And I still don't get peoples logic that Manu's free-throw miss is much bigger of a miss than Leonard's. People crushed Splitter for his FT% falling off a clip in the 11-12 season but Leonard's dropped from 82%-67% in the post season (His FT shooting in the GSW series was poor, at best). Its a weird double standard Leonard gets handled with kid gloves and they get ripped. They are even mistakes and it cost us.

He's 35 years old with a ton of mileage from international play, 10 NBA seasons plus 2 full seasons on playoff basketball.

I think that 34 point game 5 against OKC really set the bar unreasonably high for himself nearing his mid 30's. His postseason numbers from the 11-12 run were pretty similar (besides shooting percentages) He actually averaged more turnovers and fewer assists in more minutes.

We need a 3rd ball handler to create while Manu is one the floor. So he can spot up and rest ,on occasion, on offense.

Not very many players can be the 3rd option scoring the ball and then be asked to create for everyone else while he's on the floor. For a title contending team and is a 35 year old wing


His Game 7 wasn't nearly as bad. 18pt 8-14 FG, 5 assists, 4 turnovers. Parker had 10 points. Green struggled. Besides Leonard, he was the only offense we had on he perimeter.

Every rotation player,at some point, screwed up or game up small in that series. Save for Diaw & Neal (he finally got his shot back and gave us some much needed offense)It was a dozen little mistakes that cost us big.

[cd021]

I don't know why some on here criticize your analyzations of the stats and facts on here because you are dead on.
Could it be because some on here think you don't make a scapegoat of and blame Manu enough?

I blame Manu, sure, but its not all on him. DMC and Skull-1 have closed-minded opinions and look to dismiss something that doesn't gel with their beliefs. I can be swayed by certain numbers they can't be. Appreciate the support Xmas 1997.

[xmas1997]

I blame Manu, sure, but its not all on him. DMC and Skull-1 have closed-minded opinions and look to dismiss something that doesn't gel with their beliefs. I can be swayed by certain numbers they can't be. Appreciate the support Xmas 1997.

You are not the only one who has looked at the big picture rather than take the easy way out and look for a scapegoat to explain everything.
There are other posters on here too who take the time and effort to get to the bottom of things with their analyzations and thus come to somewhat the same conclusions you do.
Very few however give any credit to the Heats' defense which was pretty damn good going into the finals.
In the final analysis the Heat rose up and flat out took the trophy away from the Spurs, plain and simple.
I hate admitting that, but they weren't considered the best team with the greatest player as well as highly favored to win it all, for nothing.

[ace3g]

By the way, I didn't want to go back and look at the play by play for Game 6 but wanted to see how many points were scored off Manu's 8 TOs .......and the results are...........7 points.

[Skull-1]

By the way, I didn't want to go back and look at the play by play for Game 6 but wanted to see how many points were scored off Manu's 8 TOs .......and the results are...........7 points.


And we only needed one in regulation. How many points would we have scored without those turnovers? How much wear and tear saved on our players defending? How much clock would have burned?

None of this factors into the stats.

[barakz21]

As most Spurs fans back then, I too blamed Manu for the loss. Looking back, I still kind of put the lion's share of the blame on him, but I don't exactly "blame" him anymore. Everyone had their fair share of the blame. TD missing the layup and putback, Pop benching TD, TP getting injured and sucking the last 2 games, Kawhi missing his ft, Danny running out of bullets, etc.

Yeah, Manu had a big hand on it, but to say he alone brought a loss upon the Spurs is just..... wrong. And that's coming from a guy who wanted him to retire right then and there.

[xmas1997]

As most Spurs fans back then, I too blamed Manu for the loss. Looking back, I still kind of put the lion's share of the blame on him, but I don't exactly "blame" him anymore. Everyone had their fair share of the blame. TD missing the layup and putback, Pop benching TD, TP getting injured and sucking the last 2 games, Kawhi missing his ft, Danny running out of bullets, etc.

Yeah, Manu had a big hand on it, but to say he alone brought a loss upon the Spurs is just..... wrong. And that's coming from a guy who wanted him to retire right then and there.


I'm really glad some good sense is slowly starting to seep back into most Spurs fans.

[barakz21]

I learned from Don Vito Corleone, not to let your emotions blur the big picture. Or something like that. :downspin:

[ace3g]

I'm really glad some good sense is slowly starting to seep back into most Spurs fans.


Plus Manu only had 1 TO in the 4th at the 4:24 mark and the Heat didn't score off of it. Hell LeBron had 2 consecutive TOs (39 and 28 secs left) late in the game that could have easily hurt his legacy but the victory quickly erased those from memory.

I was more upset with the clock management at the end of game 6 (on those 2 consecutive TOs by Lebron we decided to push the ball when we could have easily taken 5-6 secs off the game clock) and Parker losing LeBron on that screen forcing Diaw to step way from Bosh to challenge Lebron.

From a team aspect no one really reacted quick enough to box out Bosh to get in position for the rebound.

1) The bad luck plays: Kawhi (with his hands) wasn't able to hold onto the ball, Wade somehow stripped it enough and then Miller pushed the ball to Lebron for his 3.

2) Manu after going for the rebound against Bosh on "the play" as he was going up Ray Allen was right at his hip/back, when he came down Allen slipped to the corner, Manu didn't have any leverage when he came down, thus why he fell to the ground; and he would of had the angle for the steal when Bosh passed the ball.

So many things went wrong, TOs get the focus because they are a stat.

[Kool Bob Love]

If you're gonna shit on Manu Ginobili for being his usual streaky reckless self in the Finals, you should also blame Tony Parker for disappearing in Games 6 and 7, and Danny Green by association. Tiago for being too much of a burden against a small team when he and Timmy were meant to have the size advantage. Kawhi for missing that free throw. Neal for being a chucker. Diaw for not shooting enough. And most of all Pop for over-adjusting and gambling on the percentages.

The San Antonio Spurs won and lost as a team is what I'm saying.

Tony Parker deserves 65% of the blame. MVP gets all the blame IMO.

6-23 in game 6. Not even gonna post his game 7 numbers.

[Juggity]

I agree that Manu isn't solely to blame here.

But given what was expected of him versus what he delivered, it's delusional to ignore the significant role he played in the loss.

[racm]

Tony Parker deserves 65% of the blame. MVP gets all the blame IMO.

6-23 in game 6. Not even gonna post his game 7 numbers.

Games 6 and 7 felt like Kawhi Leonard was the second banana. Good for the future, bad for when you're trying to close out a series.

Kobe shot 6-24 in Game 7 in 2010 and yet he gets less flak because his team won (and he shot 11-12 FTs).

[ace3g]

Another issue the past 2 years; the Spurs depth shortened way too much in the WCF (2012) and Finals (2013). Some from players going cold; others just match up issues (can't defend). Hopefully Belinelli can stay on the court for longer periods of time in tight games than Neal could and not just another situational player.

Plus another year of development from Splitter, Green, and Kawhi.

[racm]

Another issue the past 2 years; the Spurs depth shortened way too much in the WCF (2012) and Finals (2013). Some from players going cold; others just match up issues (can't defend). Hopefully Belinelli can stay on the court for longer periods of time in tight games than Neal could and not just another situational player.

Plus another year of development from Splitter, Green, and Kawhi.

To be fair, rotations ARE supposed to shorten in the playoffs.

[ace3g]

To be fair, rotations ARE supposed to shorten in the playoffs.

I realize that but our "playoff rotation" fell to about 3-4 players these past 2 years, mostly because certain players were situational players that had to be subbed out on defense for tight games and/or didn't supply any offense.

I do believe Belinelli can help in that situation because he doesn't need his jumper to make an impact, has more size to get to the basket, and can be a playmaker off the dribble.

[HI-FI]

I agree that Manu isn't solely to blame here.

But given what was expected of him versus what he delivered, it's delusional to ignore the significant role he played in the loss.
no doubt. People joke about Bellinelli being nothing more than a poor man's Ginobili, but a Poor Man version of Ginobili would've helped us win the title. Ginobili in the 2013 Finals was like Old Yeller bad. Still, to my point I made above, it starts from the top and the organization has been over relying and overpaying Ginobili the past few years. Hopefully he will be fully healthy this year and shock all of us, but I hope it's not too little too late. Perhaps the rest from his friggin national team shit, plus having guys like Bellinelli step in can add just the right ingredients to win a title.


Games 6 and 7 felt like Kawhi Leonard was the second banana. Good for the future, bad for when you're trying to close out a series.

Kobe shot 6-24 in Game 7 in 2010 and yet he gets less flak because his team won (and he shot 11-12 FTs).
that's because Kobe might be the most overrated "superstar" of my lifetime imo. I can't remember an iconic moment from his career in championship games. Just look downstairs at the amount of retards who still worship the guy. Kobe is the modern example of style over substance.

[barakz21]

Another issue the past 2 years; the Spurs depth shortened way too much in the WCF (2012) and Finals (2013). Some from players going cold; others just match up issues (can't defend). Hopefully Belinelli can stay on the court for longer periods of time in tight games than Neal could and not just another situational player.

Plus another year of development from Splitter, Green, and Kawhi.

Would be really sweet if the Spurs finally win it this year, after back to back years of falling short. I mean, it's highly likely that TD retires this year. He himself said that he can't picture himself playing out the whole 3 year deal. If they do win it all this year, it'll be like in 03 with the Admiral. And on the plus side, maybe Manu will follow TD into retirement if that does happen and the team will then begin it's rebuilding phase.

[TrainOfThought5]

There's blame to go around, no doubt. No one was perfect, Duncan missed those layups, Kawhi with the FT miss (which tbh, I was surprised he made one, considering the pressure at his age). Parker definitely went into heroball mode too often but I think we're all numb to it by now.But imo Pop and Manu deserve the lion share of blame. Ultimately I have to blame Pop, the buck stops with him. As historically bad as Manu was, Pop kept sticking with him, scared to try out something else. And as historically bad, Dead Sea Scrolls shit enshrined as Manu was, he wasn't the one to pull Duncan when all we needed was a friggin rebound. If it starts from the top then Pop deserves his props for doing some great things this year but he also shit the bed royally, sad as it is to say.This where ive pretty much ended up in my thoughts and feelings about the finals as well.

[DMC]

So who do we blame for getting to the Finals in a year where we said a Finals appearance before Duncan retires would be most satisfying? Greedy motherfuckers aren't we?

[Kidd K]

See, now this is a real take. A man's take. And dead nuts on. I should bold the whole f---ing thing!!!

lol, thanks man


Manu performance wasn't really out of the norm, considering how he played this season. Erratic and occasionally brilliant. BTW Game 1 & Game 3 were good games. Game 2, 4, and 6 were poor games.

And I still don't get peoples logic that Manu's free-throw miss is much bigger of a miss than Leonard's. People crushed Splitter for his FT% falling off a clip in the 11-12 season but Leonard's dropped from 82%-67% in the post season (His FT shooting in the GSW series was poor, at best). Its a weird double standard Leonard gets handled with kid gloves and they get ripped. They are even mistakes and it cost us.

He's 35 years old with a ton of mileage from international play, 10 NBA seasons plus 2 full seasons on playoff basketball.

I think that 34 point game 5 against OKC really set the bar unreasonably high for himself nearing his mid 30's. His postseason numbers from the 11-12 run were pretty similar (besides shooting percentages) He actually averaged more turnovers and fewer assists in more minutes.

We need a 3rd ball handler to create while Manu is one the floor. So he can spot up and rest ,on occasion, on offense.

Not very many players can be the 3rd option scoring the ball and then be asked to create for everyone else while he's on the floor. For a title contending team and is a 35 year old wing


His Game 7 wasn't nearly as bad. 18pt 8-14 FG, 5 assists, 4 turnovers. Parker had 10 points. Green struggled. Besides Leonard, he was the only offense we had on he perimeter.

Every rotation player,at some point, screwed up or game up small in that series. Save for Diaw & Neal (he finally got his shot back and gave us some much needed offense)It was a dozen little mistakes that cost us big.

Thanks for the non trolling, non lazy reply. Good to see there are some people on here who will actually discuss basketball without trying to pretend they're a class clown or some shit.

Manu's season being poor is actually part of the problem. Look how Manu was two years ago. A year ago. Then this season. Notice the downtrend? Now look at his postseason stats. His stats downtrended and declined in the postseason too (as did his +/- stat), and it really dropped off the table in the Finals by about three grades from the trend it was already at.

Manu's averages this season were already poor. They don't suddenly change the expected standard since he's still relied upon as the player he used to be, not to mention the fact that he was the highest paid Spur last year too.

Manu's game 7 was what is expected of him. About 12-15 points, a few rebounds and assists, okay defense. I consider that to be a typical, expected Manu game. Not great, star caliber, or outstanding, but at least he adds something and doesn't suck. That game (other than how he choked at the end), isn't something I was disappointed with.

What Manu did in games 1-4 were below what's expected of him, and his game 6 performance was literally worse than if he hadn't played at all.

1 and 3 were not good games. They are below his standards even for the poor season he had last year. His average was 10 points, 4.5 assists, 1.0 rebounds on .388% shooting. Below his season and postseason averages in each category. Those are basically Gary Neal numbers except an extra couple assists thrown in there. That's how "big 3 Manu Ginobili" is? No.

His games 1-4 averages are even worse: 7.5 PPG, 1.5 rebounds, 3 assists, 2.8 turnovers, and shot .345% from the field. You're seriously defending those shitty performances as "what we expected"? Manu was practically a ghost until game 5, and he threw that way by sucking terribly in game 6.

Manu's Finals stats: 11.5 PPG, 2.1 RPG, 4.3 APG, 3.1 TO, 43% from the field (about average for his shitty averages this season)

Manu game 1-4 stats: 7.5 PPG, 1.5 rebounds, 3 assists, 2.8 turnovers, and shot .345% from the field (these are shitty stats)

Manu's Finals stats minus game 5: 9.5 PPG, 2.2 RPG, 3.3 APG, 3.2 TO, .391 FG% (more shitty stats)

Manu's Finals stats minus games 5 and 7: 7.8 PPG, 2.0 RPG, 3.0 APG, 3.0 TO, .353% FG% (Garbage ass stats)

As you can see, his total stats were similar to his season stats (worse in every category actually, but still similar), but his season averages were shitty in the first place. Manu also only played 23.2 minutes per game in the regular season and 28.6 per game in the Finals. 23% more time spent on the floor to still get less stats than what he averaged with that much less time on the floor during what was a poor season as it is. His stats were really even worse than they appeared in contrast, and when you subtract his one good game, it starts to become clear just how bad he really was.

Manu used to be really good, now his talent level last year was about that of just another streaky roleplayer. I hope he can recover and get somewhat back into form, but it's hard to be positive when he was bad for practically the entire year and got steadily worse as the playoffs went on.

[therealtruth]

I think it may be possible it's a mindset issue with Manu. If he has his head on straight and has the green light from the team to be aggressive he should be ok. His game 5 performance was due mainly to a mindset adjustment which he then abandoned in game 6. If you look at the game 5 tape every time Manu caught the ball he was looking at the basket to attack. When he was at his worst was when he was catching the ball and not really looking at the basket.

[G-Dawgg]

As the 'best' player on the team Parker was the biggest disappointment. He disappeared in game 7. As the should have best player on a championship caliber team he should have carried his team in the most important game. Yet typical Parker was nowhere close to being reliable enough..

[therealtruth]

As the 'best' player on the team Parker was the biggest disappointment. He disappeared in game 7. As the should have best player on a championship caliber team he should have carried his team in the most important game. Yet typical Parker was nowhere close to being reliable enough..

I am not sure it was reasonable to expect TP to outplay Lebron with Lebron guarding him.

[G-Dawgg]

He was the leading scorer for them all season and he was great in game 1, but admit it... He folded in game 7. THE final championship game when the Spurs needed his scoring the most.

[cd021]

lol, thanks man



Thanks for the non trolling, non lazy reply. Good to see there are some people on here who will actually discuss basketball without trying to pretend they're a class clown or some shit.

Manu's season being poor is actually part of the problem. Look how Manu was two years ago. A year ago. Then this season. Notice the downtrend? Now look at his postseason stats. His stats downtrended and declined in the postseason too (as did his +/- stat), and it really dropped off the table in the Finals by about three grades from the trend it was already at.

Manu's averages this season were already poor. They don't suddenly change the expected standard since he's still relied upon as the player he used to be, not to mention the fact that he was the highest paid Spur last year too.

Manu's game 7 was what is expected of him. About 12-15 points, a few rebounds and assists, okay defense. I consider that to be a typical, expected Manu game. Not great, star caliber, or outstanding, but at least he adds something and doesn't suck. That game (other than how he choked at the end), isn't something I was disappointed with.

What Manu did in games 1-4 were below what's expected of him, and his game 6 performance was literally worse than if he hadn't played at all.

1 and 3 were not good games. They are below his standards even for the poor season he had last year. His average was 10 points, 4.5 assists, 1.0 rebounds on .388% shooting. Below his season and postseason averages in each category. Those are basically Gary Neal numbers except an extra couple assists thrown in there. That's how "big 3 Manu Ginobili" is? No.

His games 1-4 averages are even worse: 7.5 PPG, 1.5 rebounds, 3 assists, 2.8 turnovers, and shot .345% from the field. You're seriously defending those shitty performances as "what we expected"? Manu was practically a ghost until game 5, and he threw that way by sucking terribly in game 6.

Manu's Finals stats: 11.5 PPG, 2.1 RPG, 4.3 APG, 3.1 TO, 43% from the field (about average for his shitty averages this season)

Manu game 1-4 stats: 7.5 PPG, 1.5 rebounds, 3 assists, 2.8 turnovers, and shot .345% from the field (these are shitty stats)

Manu's Finals stats minus game 5: 9.5 PPG, 2.2 RPG, 3.3 APG, 3.2 TO, .391 FG% (more shitty stats)

Manu's Finals stats minus games 5 and 7: 7.8 PPG, 2.0 RPG, 3.0 APG, 3.0 TO, .353% FG% (Garbage ass stats)

As you can see, his total stats were similar to his season stats (worse in every category actually, but still similar), but his season averages were shitty in the first place. Manu also only played 23.2 minutes per game in the regular season and 28.6 per game in the Finals. 23% more time spent on the floor to still get less stats than what he averaged with that much less time on the floor during what was a poor season as it is. His stats were really even worse than they appeared in contrast, and when you subtract his one good game, it starts to become clear just how bad he really was.

Manu used to be really good, now his talent level last year was about that of just another streaky roleplayer. I hope he can recover and get somewhat back into form, but it's hard to be positive when he was bad for practically the entire year and got steadily worse as the playoffs went on.

I believe his play making should be included in that discussion for Game 1 and Game.

In game 1 he had 13 pts and 3 assists that helped contribute 8 points

In Game 3-He had just 7 points, but clearly did a great job of facilitating. He had 6 assists that created 15 points in just 23 minutes. His raw stats in those games aren't overwhelming, but he was a big reason why we won. I definitely defend those games. Game 2 and Game 4 and Game 6 he was pretty damn bad, though.

His primary job, was to be a play maker, It wasn't always pretty. but his 30 assists in the series created 72 points for teammates ( 10 of which were assists for 3 point FG's), His 22 turnovers accounted for just 26 points (In the ensuing possessions for Miami. Obviously it cost us time and fewer possesions but at least we were able to minimize the damage. I actually went back through every play-by-play of every game in the series. In game 6 his 8 turnovers accounted for just 9 points (Miami offense was an abonimation thru the 1st 3 quarters,were all but 2 of his turnovers tookplace) We were up by 10 with 5 or 6 of his turnovers occcuring. So it didn't have as negative of an effect as one may thing.

his shooting number aren't as poor as it seems, from games 5-7 he shot 57% include 8-14 FG in Game 7.

His game 5 was one of the best post season performances any Spur has had in the last decade IMO (24pts, 10 assists that helped create 25 points)

I can't defend him missing a free-throw (He is usually money in that situation) but people juding him harsher than Leonard when they were in the same situation is just B.S. half of ST already has Leonard annointed as the 3rd leg of the big 3, but treat him with kid gloves for his lackluster freethrow shooting not for the entire postseason dropping from 82%-67% (remember back to the GSW series where he went 6-16) He missed a freethrow that helped cost us a title as well.


I've been saying that His game 5 against OKC made people have unrelastic expectations for a high milleage 35 Y.O tasked with having such a big role on a title contending squad. He needs to cut the turnovers and shoot a higher percentage from 3 and convert on the fewer Free-throws he does attempt to be more effective going forward.

[Johnny RIngo]

You are not the only one who has looked at the big picture rather than take the easy way out and look for a scapegoat to explain everything.
There are other posters on here too who take the time and effort to get to the bottom of things with their analyzations and thus come to somewhat the same conclusions you do.
Very few however give any credit to the Heats' defense which was pretty damn good going into the finals.
In the final analysis the Heat rose up and flat out took the trophy away from the Spurs, plain and simple.
I hate admitting that, but they weren't considered the best team with the greatest player as well as highly favored to win it all, for nothing.

If someone ran Manu over with a car before game 6, SA would be champions right now. Manu didn't even have to suit up and SA would have the fifth trophy. That's how bad Ginobili was in game 6. His mere presence on the court killed the team.

[Skull-1]

If someone ran Manu over with a car before game 6, SA would be champions right now. Manu didn't even have to suit up and SA would have the fifth trophy. That's how bad Ginobili was in game 6. His mere presence on the court killed the team.

Tell that to cd021. Another delusional post prior to your realistic one.

[cd021]

By the way, I didn't want to go back and look at the play by play for Game 6 but wanted to see how many points were scored off Manu's 8 TOs .......and the results are...........7 points.

I went through all of the play-by-plays for the finals, dealing with Manu last week to shut Skull-1 up.

Game 1- 3 assists -8 points (2 assists for 3 pointers, from Neal and Green)

turnover

1.Bosh made 15 foot jumper=2 points

1 turnover=2 pts (Ginobili-13 pts- 8 points off assists=21 points)

Game 2- 1 Assist-2 points (to Duncan for a dunk)

Turnovers
1. Wade Misses 20 Foot Jumper=0 pts
2. Chris Anderson Made Layup=2pts
3. Allen 3pt FG-3pts

3 Turnovers=5 pts (5 pts, 2 pts off assists=7 pts)

Game-3-6 assists-15 points (3 assists for 3 pointers, 2 from Neal, & 1 for Parker)

Turnovers-
1. James makes layup=2pts
2. Miller makes 3pt FG=3pts

2 turnover for 5pts= (7 pts, 15 points off assists=21 pts)

Game 4- 2 Assists- 4 points (both assists to Duncan for layups)

Turnover

1 Wade Missed 20 foot jumper

1 turnover-0 pts (5 pts, 4 points off assists=9 pts)

Game-5-10 Assists-25 Points (4 assists for 3 pointers)

Turnovers-

1.Battier missed 3pt shot,
2. Wade Lost ball out of bounds
3. James 2 of 2 Made Free-throws=2 pts
2 pts on 3 turnovers (Ginobili 24 points, 25 points off assists=49 pts)

Game 6-3 Assists-6 Points-(2 layups for Duncan, 1 for Splitter)

1. Wade Missed 12 foot Jumper [Offensive rebound Battier Makes 3pt FG]=3 pts
2. Chalmers Travels=0 pts3. James Out of bound, T.O,=0 Pts
4.James Misses 16 Footer,=0 Pts
5. Lebron Steals and is fouled by Ginobili 2 FTM=2 Pts
6. James Misses 17 Foot jumper=0 Pts
7. James, Lost Ball, turnover,=0 Pts
8. Allen makes 2 of 2 free throws=2pts

8 turnovers 7 points off turnovers (Ginobili 9 pts, 6 pts off assists=15pts)

Game-7-5 assists, 12 points (2 assists for 3 pt 1 Leonard, 1 Diaw)
Turnovers:
1.James makes 17 Footer, =2 pts
2. James Makes 2 Free throw =2 pts
3. James Makes 1 of 2 Free-throws=1pt
4. Bosh turnover out of bounds

4 Turnovers, 5 points scored (Ginobili 18 pts, 12 points off assists=30 pts)

Totals=7 games Vs. Miami

22 Turnovers

26-Points Off Turnovers

13-Extra FGA (Additional FG attempts from Miami created off Ginobili's turnovers)

7-Made FGs off Ginobili turnovers

1.1 Points Per Shot (very bad)

Manu-

81 -Points Scored (11.6 per game)

72-Points off assists (10 points off assists per game)

30-Assisted FG (4.3 per game)

[Skull-1]

Wrong as usual. Your stats are inane. The notion that nine turnovers don't hurt the team even if zero points are scored by the opponent is LUDICROUS.

[xmas1997]

I went through all of the play-by-plays for the finals, dealing with Manu last week to shut Skull-1 up.

Game 1- 3 assists -8 points (2 assists for 3 pointers, from Neal and Green)

turnover

1.Bosh made 15 foot jumper=2 points

1 turnover=2 pts (Ginobili-13 pts- 8 points off assists=21 points)

Game 2- 1 Assist-2 points (to Duncan for a dunk)

Turnovers
1. Wade Misses 20 Foot Jumper=0 pts
2. Chris Anderson Made Layup=2pts
3. Allen 3pt FG-3pts

3 Turnovers=5 pts (5 pts, 2 pts off assists=7 pts)

Game-3-6 assists-15 points (3 assists for 3 pointers, 2 from Neal, & 1 for Parker)

Turnovers-
1. James makes layup=2pts
2. Miller makes 3pt FG=3pts

2 turnover for 5pts= (7 pts, 15 points off assists=21 pts)

Game 4- 2 Assists- 4 points (both assists to Duncan for layups)

Turnover

1 Wade Missed 20 foot jumper

1 turnover-0 pts (5 pts, 4 points off assists=9 pts)

Game-5-10 Assists-25 Points (4 assists for 3 pointers)

Turnovers-

1.Battier missed 3pt shot,
2. Wade Lost ball out of bounds
3. James 2 of 2 Made Free-throws=2 pts
2 pts on 3 turnovers (Ginobili 24 points, 25 points off assists=49 pts)

Game 6-3 Assists-6 Points-(2 layups for Duncan, 1 for Splitter)

1. Wade Missed 12 foot Jumper [Offensive rebound Battier Makes 3pt FG]=3 pts
2. Chalmers Travels=0 pts3. James Out of bound, T.O,=0 Pts
4.James Misses 16 Footer,=0 Pts
5. Lebron Steals and is fouled by Ginobili 2 FTM=2 Pts
6. James Misses 17 Foot jumper=0 Pts
7. James, Lost Ball, turnover,=0 Pts
8. Allen makes 2 of 2 free throws=2pts

8 turnovers 7 points off turnovers (Ginobili 9 pts, 6 pts off assists=15pts)

Game-7-5 assists, 12 points (2 assists for 3 pt 1 Leonard, 1 Diaw)
Turnovers:
1.James makes 17 Footer, =2 pts
2. James Makes 2 Free throw =2 pts
3. James Makes 1 of 2 Free-throws=1pt
4. Bosh turnover out of bounds

4 Turnovers, 5 points scored (Ginobili 18 pts, 12 points off assists=30 pts)

Totals=7 games Vs. Miami

22 Turnovers

26-Points Off Turnovers

13-Extra FGA (Additional FG attempts from Miami created off Ginobili's turnovers)

7-Made FGs off Ginobili turnovers

1.1 Points Per Shot (very bad)

Manu-

81 -Points Scored (11.6 per game)

72-Points off assists (10 points off assists per game)

30-Assisted FG (4.3 per game)


The stats don't lie.
This should shut him up this time unless he just does not want to admit to the truth.
But then, there are some people out there like that who only want to hear what they want to hear regardless of the facts staring them right in the face!

[Skull-1]

The stats don't lie.
This should shut him up this time unless he just does not want to admit to the truth.
But then, there are some people out there like that who only want to hear what they want to hear regardless of the facts staring them right in the face!


Yeah, like two missed free throws and NINE TURNOVERS that took away Spurs points and gave seven points to Miami.

[xmas1997]

And if it doesn't shut them up, then just consider the source.

[Kidd K]

By the way, I didn't want to go back and look at the play by play for Game 6 but wanted to see how many points were scored off Manu's 8 TOs .......and the results are...........7 points.

And the results for those possessions he threw away for the Spurs resulted in 0 points for them. If you look at the efficiency of the Spurs' team's scoring that game, those 8 possessions should have resulted in 8 points. So Manu's turnovers really cost the Spurs about 15 points on the final game score, not 7.

You only looked at half of the negatives caused by the turnovers. And we're not even touching on momentum changes, demoralizing the team, and other intangibles. And this was by a player who had a +/- nearly twice as bad as the second worst guy on the team that night.

Lastly, even if it was "just 7 points", which it wasn't, stop forgetting the game ended up tied and went to OT. Had he not cost us those "just 7 points", we would have a championship.


The stats don't lie.
This should shut him up this time unless he just does not want to admit to the truth.
But then, there are some people out there like that who only want to hear what they want to hear regardless of the facts staring them right in the face!

Numbers don't lie, but how people view the stats can (see the above reply). You are also the exact kind of person you're talking about who only wants to hear what they want to hear regardless of the facts staring them right in the face.

You're like Kobe fans who say "hey look Kobe has 30+ game winning shots, so he's a clutch shooter!". . . and they forget that he's missed over 100, meaning his game winning shot % is barely 25%, which isn't clutch at all. Stop pretending the negatives don't matter and the few paltry positives prove your case. They don't.


And if it doesn't shut them up, then just consider the source.

Your posts are becoming increasingly more terrible. Try to stop your downward spiral.



I believe his play making should be included in that discussion for Game 1 and Game.

In game 1 he had 13 pts and 3 assists that helped contribute 8 points

In Game 3-He had just 7 points, but clearly did a great job of facilitating. He had 6 assists that created 15 points in just 23 minutes. His raw stats in those games aren't overwhelming, but he was a big reason why we won. I definitely defend those games. Game 2 and Game 4 and Game 6 he was pretty damn bad, though.

His primary job, was to be a play maker, It wasn't always pretty. but his 30 assists in the series created 72 points for teammates ( 10 of which were assists for 3 point FG's), His 22 turnovers accounted for just 26 points (In the ensuing possessions for Miami. Obviously it cost us time and fewer possesions but at least we were able to minimize the damage. I actually went back through every play-by-play of every game in the series. In game 6 his 8 turnovers accounted for just 9 points (Miami offense was an abonimation thru the 1st 3 quarters,were all but 2 of his turnovers tookplace) We were up by 10 with 5 or 6 of his turnovers occcuring. So it didn't have as negative of an effect as one may thing.

his shooting number aren't as poor as it seems, from games 5-7 he shot 57% include 8-14 FG in Game 7.

His game 5 was one of the best post season performances any Spur has had in the last decade IMO (24pts, 10 assists that helped create 25 points)

I can't defend him missing a free-throw (He is usually money in that situation) but people juding him harsher than Leonard when they were in the same situation is just B.S. half of ST already has Leonard annointed as the 3rd leg of the big 3, but treat him with kid gloves for his lackluster freethrow shooting not for the entire postseason dropping from 82%-67% (remember back to the GSW series where he went 6-16) He missed a freethrow that helped cost us a title as well.


I've been saying that His game 5 against OKC made people have unrelastic expectations for a high milleage 35 Y.O tasked with having such a big role on a title contending squad. He needs to cut the turnovers and shoot a higher percentage from 3 and convert on the fewer Free-throws he does attempt to be more effective going forward.

You actually touch on a philosophical debate that advanced stats experts have on assists. The PPR (pure point rating) is a statistical formula to determine a player's playmaking ability. In it, a turnover is more costly than an assist is helpful. The thinking is that you don't need an assist to score points, and that the assist does not actually directly create the points either, so you can't say "hey an assist, it was worth two points" when he didn't actually make the shot, he just passed to a guy who did. It isn't directly worth 2, just like a turnover isn't directly worth 2 points in the other direction.

If you want to talk about how much he contributed, look at his GameScore stat or +/- stats, and both are shitty. In fact, in a thread a couple months ago we had looked up his GameScore and +/- stats for the playoffs and they kept going down as the playoffs went on. Manu got most of his stats in the first 2 series and barely did shit since.

Onto your "his assists got us this and his turnovers cost us this: Actually his 22 turnovers also cost us at least 22 points on top of those 26, so that's 48 at least. And as I said earlier, Manu should not get full credit for the points scored on an assist, you're really trying to stretch your dollar with that. At max he should get half credit since he's not even taking the shot himself, he's just half of the play. That's what advanced stats are meant to be for. So we'll say he's responsible for adding 36 points making plays. That means he still cost us -12 in net total, so his playmaking was a negative, not a positive. That's on top of his poor shooting outside of games 5 and 7. Overall, Manu barely had a positive impact on the series besides being a decoy outside of games 5 and 7. This is reflected in his GameScore stats, which were right around ZERO for most of those games. 10 being "average".

And btw, feel free to use the same logic on Tony Parker's performance if you want to try bashing him. I use the same logic when determining the usefulness of any player's playmaking, this isn't something I cooked up just for this. That's why I defend Parker's performance and bash Manu's. Parker had a positive overall impact despite the leg injury, Manu did not outside of two games. And one of the two (game 7) is basically what we typically expected as recently as the season before. Minus the choking at the end.

His shooting numbers were as bad as they seemed, I posted his shooting stats already including and not including his 2 good games. Games 5 heavily inflated his overall %, but I prefer looking at the mode rather than the average. I'm not arguing Manu helped us win game 5, I'm saying he was really bad in games 1-4 and game 6 especially, so game 5 and 7 don't matter.

As for how he did against OKC. . .honestly, if you look at that series too, he SUCKED at OKC. Like a huge holy shit level dropoff. He let James Harden beat the brakes off him all series too. Though I'd happily take a "50/50" good/poor Manu over a 71% chance of below average starting NBA SG impact (14% of which is a HUGE negative impact, and 29% is a well below average, borderline neagtive impact), 14% chance of an average game, and 14% chance of a good game that helps us win it.

That's what it boils down to. He was poor in most of the games when he's supposed to be one of our better players. I couldn't give a shit less if Leonard missed afree throw. Manu missed his free throw right before Leonard did and also sucked hard that game while underperforming throughout the series while Leonard was pretty good throughout the series and is already known to not be a great FT shooter. That's false equivalency. Manu was far worse than Leonard from expected impact and actual impact standpoints.

Manu's entire season was worse than expected, and his impact per minute went down really far in the finals. Dude played 20% more minutes and still put up less numbers. So he was about 20% worse than what you should have expected from his already below expectations season too.

[Skull-1]

Kidd K with the goods, again....as usual.


Boom.

Well put. I got bashed for breaking the games down like you just did, but it is the only way to show Manu's true performance. Game 5 saved his statistical rear end.... It masked how awful he was.

[xmas1997]

Kidd, I don't think anyone can logically dispute the fact that Manu had one of the worst performances of his career.
What I, and IMHO what I think most others are disputing is what others (shall we call them Manu haters or bashers for lack of a better term?) are trying to cram down our throats, namely that Manu was solely responsible for losing the championship.
At one time or another almost every Spur either made mistakes, shifted momentum, or disappeared.
Regardless of who did the worst (and it is obvious it was probably Manu), the whole team should shoulder parts of the blame at various points of the series if looked at objectively, and not just one man.
Thus we can't simply pin it all on Manu, because it is just not as simple as that as shown by valid arguments on both sides of the issue. And to bash us for saying this, and accuse us of being Manu lovers or whatever, is the wrong tack to take because it is ignorant and very narrow minded and supports nothing.
Plus I honestly don't think enough credit is given to the defense and offense of the Heat for taking it away from the Spurs.
So, in retrospect the best any of us can do, unless you want to nitpick every single play and each ramification, is to come to the simple conclusion that basically the Spurs as a team lost, and the Heat as a team won.

[AchillesHeel]

I've been saying this all off-season, Manu shat the bed when it mattered the most, he didn't just have one bad play like Duncan's missed layup + tip in, he had 4 games worth of garbage and then some.

There were many highlights, like the missed free throw that could have sealed the championship, or the turnover at the end of OT.

It was a mix of Manu being off his game and Pop trusting him til the end. He benched Timmy before he even thought of benching the worst performer on the team. I would have rather had an injured Parker try to make a tough shot to tie the game in OT than have turnobili go up against 2-3 defenders and turn it over.

And then there's this moment, we were basically at the same position the Heat were in Game 6, what does Manu do?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKDeak5Rkgo

What's done is done, we can't change the facts, we can only hope Pop and others learned from that experience and if we should be in that position against next year we wouldn't fuck up the way we did this year.

[Johnny RIngo]

Kidd, I don't think anyone can logically dispute the fact that Manu had one of the worst performances of his career.
What I, and IMHO what I think most others are disputing is what others (shall we call them Manu haters or bashers for lack of a better term?) are trying to cram down our throats, namely that Manu was solely responsible for losing the championship.
At one time or another almost every Spur either made mistakes, shifted momentum, or disappeared.
Regardless of who did the worst (and it is obvious it was probably Manu), the whole team should shoulder parts of the blame at various points of the series if looked at objectively, and not just one man.
Thus we can't simply pin it all on Manu, because it is just not as simple as that as shown by valid arguments on both sides of the issue. And to bash us for saying this, and accuse us of being Manu lovers or whatever, is the wrong tack to take because it is ignorant and very narrow minded and supports nothing.
Plus I honestly don't think enough credit is given to the defense and offense of the Heat for taking it away from the Spurs.
So, in retrospect the best any of us can do, unless you want to nitpick every single play and each ramification, is to come to the simple conclusion that basically the Spurs as a team lost, and the Heat as a team won.

Manu was payed 14 million last season...the highest on the team. He's definitely responsible for a lot of the blame when he's taking in so much salary and giving so little back to the team. SA being a small market team means the front office has to be VERY careful with salaries to avoid the lux tax. As a result, everybody has to pull their weight(or earn their contract). Manu did NOT earn that paycheck. Duncan played way above his salary level. So did Parker(for the most part). Green and Kawhi played well above their salary. Look at Miami, in comparison. They had 40 yr old Ray Allen on a cheap $3 million contract giving them MUCH better production than our $14 million shooting guard. Hell, swap Ray Allen for Manu and we have that fifth title. Ginobili was payed like a star but his output was more of a mediocre role player. Role Players should NOT be getting paid $14 million a year.

And the sad thing is Manu looked like he still had "it" less than a year ago when he suited up for Argentina. He averaged 20 ppg in FIBA, got injured, healed on company time while missing 30 games, and came back playing worse than Danny Green. He degenerated from a star shooting guard into an unreliable role player in less than a year. Too bad the moron never learned that he should be taking the summers off to heal his body like Duncan has been doing for years now.

[Skull-1]

I've been saying this all off-season, Manu shat the bed when it mattered the most, he didn't just have one bad play like Duncan's missed layup + tip in, he had 4 games worth of garbage and then some.

There were many highlights, like the missed free throw that could have sealed the championship, or the turnover at the end of OT.

It was a mix of Manu being off his game and Pop trusting him til the end. He benched Timmy before he even thought of benching the worst performer on the team. I would have rather had an injured Parker try to make a tough shot to tie the game in OT than have turnobili go up against 2-3 defenders and turn it over.

And then there's this moment, we were basically at the same position the Heat were in Game 6, what does Manu do?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKDeak5Rkgo

What's done is done, we can't change the facts, we can only hope Pop and others learned from that experience and if we should be in that position against next year we wouldn't fuck up the way we did this year.


After watching that video I think I need to be checked for PTSD. UGH! Even the announcer said he was out of control!

Why not slam the ball off the defender's foot instead of a wild Hail Mary pass to James?

[Skull-1]

Manu was payed 14 million last season...the highest on the team. He's definitely responsible for a lot of the blame when he's taking in so much salary and giving so little back to the team. SA being a small market team means the front office has to be VERY careful with salaries to avoid the lux tax. As a result, everybody has to pull their weight(or earn their contract). Manu did NOT earn that paycheck. Duncan played way above his salary level. So did Parker(for the most part). Green and Kawhi played well above their salary. Look at Miami, in comparison. They had 40 yr old Ray Allen on a cheap $3 million contract giving them MUCH better production than our $14 million shooting guard. Hell, swap Ray Allen for Manu and we have that fifth title. Ginobili was payed like a star but his output was more of a mediocre role player. Role Players should NOT be getting paid $14 million a year.

And the sad thing is Manu looked like he still had "it" less than a year ago when he suited up for Argentina. He averaged 20 ppg in FIBA, got injured, healed on company time while missing 30 games, and came back playing worse than Danny Green. He degenerated from a star shooting guard into an unreliable role player in less than a year. Too bad the moron never learned that he should be taking the summers off to heal his body like Duncan has been doing for years now.

[xmas1997]

I guess I have to repost this again because it seems it is just not sinking in to those thick headed excuses for brains some of you have.
Read carefully and slowly!
:lol


I don't think anyone can logically dispute the fact that Manu had one of the worst performances of his career.
What I, and IMHO what I think most others are disputing is what others (shall we call them Manu haters or bashers for lack of a better term?) are trying to cram down our throats, namely that Manu was solely responsible for losing the championship.
At one time or another almost every Spur either made mistakes, shifted momentum, or disappeared.
Regardless of who did the worst (and it is obvious it was probably Manu), the whole team should shoulder parts of the blame at various points of the series if looked at objectively, and not just one man.
Thus we can't simply pin it all on Manu, because it is just not as simple as that as shown by valid arguments on both sides of the issue. And to bash us for saying this, and accuse us of being Manu lovers or whatever, is the wrong tack to take because it is ignorant and very narrow minded and supports nothing.
Plus I honestly don't think enough credit is given to the defense and offense of the Heat for taking it away from the Spurs.
So, in retrospect the best any of us can do, unless you want to nitpick every single play and each ramification, is to come to the simple conclusion that basically the Spurs as a team lost, and the Heat as a team won.

[Skull-1]

I guess I have to repost this again because it seems it is just not sinking in to those thick headed excuses for brains some of you have.
Read carefully and slowly!
:lol



Yes. He isn't solely responsible. He's DOUBLY responsible. Exclusively x 2

[xmas1997]

Yes. He isn't solely responsible. He's DOUBLY responsible. Exclusively x 2

:lmao

More BS.

:deadhorse

[Skull-1]

:deadhorse


Too bad that horse isn't Manu. Tim would use that bat on him just like that.

[xmas1997]

Too bad that horse isn't Manu. Tim would use that bat on him just like that.

I seriously doubt that, just as I doubt you know what you're talking about.

[Skull-1]

I seriously doubt that, just as I doubt you know what you're talking about.


A man with so little in his brain pan would understandably doubt a lot.

[xmas1997]

A man with so little in his brain pan would understandably doubt a lot.

Definitely a case of the pot calling the kettle black if I ever heard one.
At least I possess a rational thinking brain unlike your tinker toys.
Don't you have anything constructive to say?
All you spout are one negative after another.
That says quite a lot about your character, you know.:hat

[Skull-1]

Definitely a case of the pot calling the kettle black if I ever heard one.
At least I possess a rational thinking brain unlike your tinker toys.
Don't you have anything constructive to say?
All you spout are one negative after another.
That says quite a lot about your character, you know.:hat


All you do is troll like some zit faced teenager with nothing better to do,

[xmas1997]

All you do is troll like some zit faced teenager with nothing better to do,

What? :lmao
It's been established a long time ago that you are definitely the troll here.
Or did you miss that while wearing your blinders?

[Skull-1]

What? :lmao
It's been established a long time ago that you are definitely the troll here.
Or did you miss that while wearing your blinders?


I only get called a troll by the people I slay with logic and truth. Then they block me and others make similar points to mine, and are praised, deservedly, for their brilliance. I could care less but am too tired to care at all.

[xmas1997]

I only get called a troll by the people I slay with logic and truth. Then they block me and others make similar points to mine, and are praised, deservedly, for their brilliance. I could care less but am too tired to care at all.

:lmao. More of your BS.
You are really full of yourself.
When did they let you out of the sanitarium?
Next you'll be trying to convince us you're God Incarnate, Santa Claus, and the Easter bunny all rolled into one.
Get a life, man!
You lost the argument a long time ago.

[Skull-1]

:lmao. More of your BS.
You are really full of yourself.
When did they let you out of the sanitarium?
Next you'll be trying to convince us you're God Incarnate, Santa Claus, and the Easter bunny all rolled into one.
Get a life, man!
You lost the argument a long time ago.


Actually I won it big time. You're making a complete and utter fool of yourself. You're aware of that, right? Of COURSE NOT. WHAT AM I SAYING?

Shut up with the wimp sauce. Go ugly early. Bring it strong, never weak.

[xmas1997]

Thank you for finally realizing you lost.
Naw, just wishful thinking on my part.
Truth hurt yet? It should.
Why don't you just go back to your Mavs forum?
We have class here.

[Skull-1]

Thank you for finally realizing you lost.
Naw, just wishful thinking on my part.
Truth hurt yet? It should.
Why don't you just go back to your Mavs forum?
We have class here.


We? You got a frog in your pocket?

[cd021]

You actually touch on a philosophical debate that advanced stats experts have on assists. The PPR (pure point rating) is a statistical formula to determine a player's playmaking ability. In it, a turnover is more costly than an assist is helpful. The thinking is that you don't need an assist to score points, and that the assist does not actually directly create the points either, so you can't say "hey an assist, it was worth two points" when he didn't actually make the shot, he just passed to a guy who did. It isn't directly worth 2, just like a turnover isn't directly worth 2 points in the other direction.

If you want to talk about how much he contributed, look at his GameScore stat or +/- stats, and both are shitty. In fact, in a thread a couple months ago we had looked up his GameScore and +/- stats for the playoffs and they kept going down as the playoffs went on. Manu got most of his stats in the first 2 series and barely did shit since.

Onto your "his assists got us this and his turnovers cost us this: Actually his 22 turnovers also cost us at least 22 points on top of those 26, so that's 48 at least. And as I said earlier, Manu should not get full credit for the points scored on an assist, you're really trying to stretch your dollar with that. At max he should get half credit since he's not even taking the shot himself, he's just half of the play. That's what advanced stats are meant to be for. So we'll say he's responsible for adding 36 points making plays. That means he still cost us -12 in net total, so his playmaking was a negative, not a positive. That's on top of his poor shooting outside of games 5 and 7. Overall, Manu barely had a positive impact on the series besides being a decoy outside of games 5 and 7. This is reflected in his GameScore stats, which were right around ZERO for most of those games. 10 being "average".

And btw, feel free to use the same logic on Tony Parker's performance if you want to try bashing him. I use the same logic when determining the usefulness of any player's playmaking, this isn't something I cooked up just for this. That's why I defend Parker's performance and bash Manu's. Parker had a positive overall impact despite the leg injury, Manu did not outside of two games. And one of the two (game 7) is basically what we typically expected as recently as the season before. Minus the choking at the end.

His shooting numbers were as bad as they seemed, I posted his shooting stats already including and not including his 2 good games. Games 5 heavily inflated his overall %, but I prefer looking at the mode rather than the average. I'm not arguing Manu helped us win game 5, I'm saying he was really bad in games 1-4 and game 6 especially, so game 5 and 7 don't matter.

As for how he did against OKC. . .honestly, if you look at that series too, he SUCKED at OKC. Like a huge holy shit level dropoff. He let James Harden beat the brakes off him all series too. Though I'd happily take a "50/50" good/poor Manu over a 71% chance of below average starting NBA SG impact (14% of which is a HUGE negative impact, and 29% is a well below average, borderline neagtive impact), 14% chance of an average game, and 14% chance of a good game that helps us win it.

That's what it boils down to. He was poor in most of the games when he's supposed to be one of our better players. I couldn't give a shit less if Leonard missed afree throw. Manu missed his free throw right before Leonard did and also sucked hard that game while underperforming throughout the series while Leonard was pretty good throughout the series and is already known to not be a great FT shooter. That's false equivalency. Manu was far worse than Leonard from expected impact and actual impact standpoints.

Manu's entire season was worse than expected, and his impact per minute went down really far in the finals. Dude played 20% more minutes and still put up less numbers. So he was about 20% worse than what you should have expected from his already below expectations season too.




I actually chose my words carefully about Manu's points created off of his assists. I said he created points not essentially scored them himself. That being said I never said that he scored them himself, he created open looks for his teammates that otherwise wouldn't be able to create for themselves on a consistent basis. I was using the 72 points scored off of his 30 assists as guide to how valuable his assists were.


That’s an interesting The PPR” is something I’m unfamiliar with. Based on what you summed up a turnover is more costly than an assist. Because a player doesn’t need an assist to score and even when he receives a pass he still has to make that shot. That makes since but I don’t necessarily agree with the logic entirely. For the Spurs we really only have 3 players who could create their own shot.

Leonard, Green, Neal (sort of a hybrid of the two), Bonner, Diaw and Splitter all rely heavily on the play making or additional defensive attention to or of Duncan, Parker and Ginobili. It doesn’t really take into account the individual players on a any given team. In the Spurs case, there really aren’t that many players who can
actually score consistently on their own.

Open looks created are paramount to our offense (as with any, really), Manu obviously didn’t score those points but getting spot up shooters open jumpers that they more than likely , wouldn’t have even gotten is important none the less. Also 1/3 of Manu’s assists came from open 3 point opportunities.

There is a reason why we lead the league in assists ball movement is key in our offense. Compare that to Oklahoma City where both Durant and Westbrook do scored a combined 50 ppg. They seldom assists on each other’s baskets. It would seem, based on your description of PPR that it would more accurate for a team that players who can consistently score on their own because, to them, it’s irrelevant whether they get assisted baskets or not they simply can score on their own no matter what.

I do not understand the concept that Manu's 22 turnovers actually cost us 48 points? Please clarify. I get that allowing just 26 points off Manu’s 22 turnovers aren’t because Manu ,solely, made up for his short comings on the defensive end but the team managed to clamp down and keep a team who thrives in transition to scoring in the half court. As with what “Ace” said and I had previously expanded on was that his 8 turnovers hadn’t been the cause of our game 6 debacles.

Most of his turnovers occurred during the first 3 quarters and we still thoroughly outplayed Miami. I’d also point to the fact that even with Manu’s 8 turnovers; we still only had 13 which was actually below both our regular season and postseason average. Given the importance of the game Manu & Parker almost exclusively handled the basketball with Duncan getting touches in the post or on P&Rs.

He did play poorly overall in Game 6, but my beef is more with Coach Pop. He could have kept Duncan or Parker in for 3 minutes of the 1st 5:30 of the fourth quarter instead of leaving Manu who wound up attempting just four shots with Splitter (damaged goods at that point) Neal, Leonard or Green ( I can’t remember which one, but I believe it was Green) and Diaw.

Where was the offense supposed to come from? Manu didn’t play well in game 6. I get it but leaving him out to dry to start the 4th quarter of a title clinching game on the road against an explosive offense and an dependent group of teammates for so long made no since.


I don't have a problem with Parkers performance; I have a problem with people’s unrealistic expectation of Ginobili. He did underperformed but he had lofty expectations that was almost impossible to live up to given his age and declining skill. While going against a top tier defense.

The OKC game 5 was an anomaly, I knew it then and I know it now. Many people seem to have been using that game as an unrealistic bar for how to judge him. I mentioned that his performance that postseason was similar to this past post season. His shooting was better (but still worse than his career playoff numbers)his turnovers were actually up while his assists were below his marks from this past season.

I'm assuming you meant that we could have scored 22 points on those possessions (bare minimum) Its useless using that logic, there isn't an advanced advanced stat on possessions that never occurred.

What we do know was Miami was never able to truly capitalize on Manu's mistakes. turnovers in 200 minutes of game time isn't that bad.

[xmas1997]

Both sides of this discussion are equally interesting.
Thanks kidd and cd021, you both make some very valid reasonable astute points unlike some on here who only know how to cast blame.
:clap

[cd021]

I've been saying this all off-season, Manu shat the bed when it mattered the most, he didn't just have one bad play like Duncan's missed layup + tip in, he had 4 games worth of garbage and then some. There were many highlights, like the missed free throw that could have sealed the championship, or the turnover at the end of OT. It was a mix of Manu being off his game and Pop trusting him til the end. He benched Timmy before he even thought of benching the worst performer on the team. I would have rather had an injured Parker try to make a tough shot to tie the game in OT than have turnobili go up against 2-3 defenders and turn it over. And then there's this moment, we were basically at the same position the Heat were in Game 6, what does Manu do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKDeak5Rkgo What's done is done, we can't change the facts, we can only hope Pop and others learned from that experience and if we should be in that position against next year we wouldn't fuck up the way we did this year.

The problem i have with benching Manu means that Neal would have to play against that PG-less lineup. The shortest player in that lineup was Wade who is bigger and stronger than Neal.

Also Neal can't defend and he had problems in Game 6 & 7 with getting shots up with Miami and their length and athleticism. He kept pump faking and attempting to drive instead of his no hesitation jumpers.

As for Duncan being benched. At least Pop had precedent of doing that but it worked out terribly. My beef was with Pop benching Duncan and Parker for half of the forth quarter while Miami got hot. Our offense never looked the same afterwards and I don't think Duncan even scored after he returned.

Manu missing a freethrow and he gets crushed. Kawhi caps a bad free-throw shooting slump (down from 82%-67% from the regular to the postseason) with a miss and no one criticizes him.

Splitter had the same thing happen and he gets ripped last post season.

That just seems like a double standard.

[Skull-1]

I actually chose my words carefully about Manu's points created off of his assists. I said he created points not essentially scored them himself. That being said I never said that he scored them himself, he created open looks for his teammates that otherwise wouldn't be able to create for themselves on a consistent basis. I was using the 72 points scored off of his 30 assists as guide to how valuable his assists were.


That’s an interesting The PPR” is something I’m unfamiliar with. Based on what you summed up a turnover is more costly than an assist. Because a player doesn’t need an assist to score and even when he receives a pass he still has to make that shot. That makes since but I don’t necessarily agree with the logic entirely. For the Spurs we really only have 3 players who could create their own shot.

Leonard, Green, Neal (sort of a hybrid of the two), Bonner, Diaw and Splitter all rely heavily on the play making or additional defensive attention to or of Duncan, Parker and Ginobili. It doesn’t really take into account the individual players on a any given team. In the Spurs case, there really aren’t that many players who can
actually score consistently on their own.

Open looks created are paramount to our offense (as with any, really), Manu obviously didn’t score those points but getting spot up shooters open jumpers that they more than likely , wouldn’t have even gotten is important none the less. Also 1/3 of Manu’s assists came from open 3 point opportunities.

There is a reason why we lead the league in assists ball movement is key in our offense. Compare that to Oklahoma City where both Durant and Westbrook do scored a combined 50 ppg. They seldom assists on each other’s baskets. It would seem, based on your description of PPR that it would more accurate for a team that players who can consistently score on their own because, to them, it’s irrelevant whether they get assisted baskets or not they simply can score on their own no matter what.

I do not understand the concept that Manu's 22 turnovers actually cost us 48 points? Please clarify. I get that allowing just 26 points off Manu’s 22 turnovers aren’t because Manu ,solely, made up for his short comings on the defensive end but the team managed to clamp down and keep a team who thrives in transition to scoring in the half court. As with what “Ace” said and I had previously expanded on was that his 8 turnovers hadn’t been the cause of our game 6 debacles.

Most of his turnovers occurred during the first 3 quarters and we still thoroughly outplayed Miami. I’d also point to the fact that even with Manu’s 8 turnovers; we still only had 13 which was actually below both our regular season and postseason average. Given the importance of the game Manu & Parker almost exclusively handled the basketball with Duncan getting touches in the post or on P&Rs.

He did play poorly overall in Game 6, but my beef is more with Coach Pop. He could have kept Duncan or Parker in for 3 minutes of the 1st 5:30 of the fourth quarter instead of leaving Manu who wound up attempting just four shots with Splitter (damaged goods at that point) Neal, Leonard or Green ( I can’t remember which one, but I believe it was Green) and Diaw.

Where was the offense supposed to come from? Manu didn’t play well in game 6. I get it but leaving him out to dry to start the 4th quarter of a title clinching game on the road against an explosive offense and an dependent group of teammates for so long made no since.


I don't have a problem with Parkers performance; I have a problem with people’s unrealistic expectation of Ginobili. He did underperformed but he had lofty expectations that was almost impossible to live up to given his age and declining skill. While going against a top tier defense.

The OKC game 5 was an anomaly, I knew it then and I know it now. Many people seem to have been using that game as an unrealistic bar for how to judge him. I mentioned that his performance that postseason was similar to this past post season. His shooting was better (but still worse than his career playoff numbers)his turnovers were actually up while his assists were below his marks from this past season.

I'm assuming you meant that we could have scored 22 points on those possessions (bare minimum) Its useless using that logic, there isn't an advanced advanced stat on possessions that never occurred.

What we do know was Miami was never able to truly capitalize on Manu's mistakes. turnovers in 200 minutes of game time isn't that bad.Dodging the issues, KK raised, just like you dodged mine. What a stat weenie.

[xmas1997]

Dodging the issues, KK raised, just like you dodged mine. What a stat weenie.

What a hypocrite you are! How much more hypocritical can you get?
That goes beyond being biased, rather you are a prejudiced narrow minded ignorant hypocrite, a perfect asswipe!
Both kk and cd021 both post friendly intelligent but opposing viewpoints, with stats, yet you choose to accuse cd021 of being the stat weenie? .... when they both used stats???
No wonder most on here think you are a joke!
Please, troll, go back to the Mavs forum where came from and where you belong!

[Skull-1]

What a hypocrite you are!
Both kk and cd021 both post friendly intelligent but opposing viewpoints with stats, yet you choose to accuse cd021 of being the stat weenie? .... when they both used stats???
That goes beyond being biased, rather you are a prejudiced narrow minded ignorant hypocrite, a perfect asswipe!
No wonder most on here think you are a joke!
Please, troll, go back to the Mavs forum where you belong!

And you are a falsely accusing, illiterate, simpleton, dbag. Cd021 is dodging multiple issues and parroting his slanted, incomplete, bogus, agenda-driven "stats". Mind your own business, hypocrite. Just because you throw around words like prejudiced does not make it so. Nobody buys that slanderous/libelous crap. Stfu, worm.

[xmas1997]

And you are a falsely accusing, illiterate, simpleton, dbag. Cd021 is dodging multiple issues and parroting his slanted, incomplete, bogus, agenda-driven "stats". Mind your own business, hypocrite. Just because you throw around words like prejudiced does not make it so. Nobody buys that slanderous/libelous crap. Stfu, worm.

Go whine to someone who gives a shit, crybaby!
And while you're at it, look up the definition of some of the adjectives that I used to describe you, you might actually learn something!
Better yet, go back to your Mavs forum!

[Skull-1]

Go whine to someone who gives a shit, crybaby!
And while you're at it, look up the definition of some of the adjectives that I used to describe you, you might actually learn something!
Better yet, go back to your Mavs forum!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVcOh-B70e0

[xmas1997]

As usual, more juvenile BS instead of a valid reasonable argument on your part.
Have you ever heard of the word "debate"?

[Strategic]

To be fair, rotations ARE supposed to shorten in the playoffs.The Heat's first team is led by Lebron, the Heat's second team is led by ............Lebron, the Heat's third team is led by Lebron. Who has a rotation to match that line-up, but for father time?

[Skull-1]

As usual, more juvenile BS instead of a valid reasonable argument on your part.
Have you ever heard of the word "debate"?


Yep. And in the debate, in which cd021 is the only one who at least tried to offer an argument, I completely pwned you both. So shut your fat pimply face already. NOBODY CARES ABOUT ANYTHING YOU SAY.

[Skull-1]

The Heat's first team is led by Lebron, the Heat's second team is led by ............Lebron, the Heat's third team is led by Lebron. Who has a rotation to match that line-up, but for father time?


Leonard was our main burn player. Only guy young enough to keep going.

[xmas1997]

Yep. And in the debate, in which cd021 is the only one who at least tried to offer an argument, I completely pwned you both. So shut your fat pimply face already. NOBODY CARES ABOUT ANYTHING YOU SAY.

Listen to me very very carefully, troll:

Go Back To The Mavs Forum Where You Came From!

[Skull-1]

Listen to me very very carefully, troll:

Go Back To The Mavs Forum Where You Came From!

Squawk. Squawk.. Squawk.

[xmas1997]

Squawk. Squawk.. Squawk.


Hmm, can't read either. That explains a lot.:rollin

[Skull-1]

Hmm, can't read either. That explains a lot.:rollin


Squawk. Squawk.

[xmas1997]

Squawk. Squawk.

QUIT FOLLOWING ME.

[Skull-1]

QUIT FOLLOWING ME.

This from the stalker who won't stfu even though he has said he would repeatedly. Lmao.

Still waiting for something original.

[xmas1997]

This from the stalker who won't stfu even though he has said he would repeatedly. Lmao.

Still waiting for something original.


See my last post!

[Skull-1]

See my last post!


We are still waiting...

[xmas1997]

We are still waiting...

I'm not going to continue to go around and around with you.
See my last post.

[Skull-1]

I'm not going to continue to go around and around with you.
See my last post.


Still waiting... Change your nickname to Parrot.

[xmas1997]

Still waiting... Change your nickname to Parrot.

See my last post.

[Skull-1]

I'm not going to continue to go around and around with you.
See my last post.

[Skull-1]

See my last post.

[therealtruth]

The Heat's first team is led by Lebron, the Heat's second team is led by ............Lebron, the Heat's third team is led by Lebron. Who has a rotation to match that line-up, but for father time?

One of the reason for thinking that the Spurs could win was that they could go 8-9 deep and keep a fresh body on Lebron. If they give that up the advantage goes to the Heat.

[Skull-1]

One of the reason for thinking that the Spurs could win was that they could go 8-9 deep and keep a fresh body on Lebron. If they give that up the advantage goes to the Heat.

Primary responsibility for James was Leonard's. Diaw helped some as did Green. Who do we have that could stay with the guy in long stretches other than Leonard?

[therealtruth]

Primary responsibility for James was Leonard's. Diaw helped some as did Green. Who do we have that could stay with the guy in long stretches other than Leonard?

We should have rotated at least 3 different guys (Leonard,Green,Diaw) on him like the Mavs did in '11.

[Skull-1]

We should have rotated at least 3 different guys (Leonard,Green,Diaw) on him like the Mavs did in '11.

:toast

[xmas1997]

One of the reason for thinking that the Spurs could win was that they could go 8-9 deep and keep a fresh body on Lebron. If they give that up the advantage goes to the Heat.

But they forgot about Wade who came up big time and time again when he was supposedly injured.