2 weeks in, what teams already need a change at QB? [Archive]

spurraider21

09-16-2013, 11:54 PM

i fucking hate henne so bad. the jags need to start stanzi or one handed gabby!! hell i'd rather have tebow than henne.

last time i mentioned Tebow to the Jags, a jags fan on this forum (i can't recall if it was you, but i don't think it was) went off on me. so i've tried my hardest to hold that thought back :lol

Gabbert/Henne remind me Jamarcus Russell. hold the ball way too long, take too many sacks. even when actually decisive enough to pull the trigger, its woefully inaccurate. these guys never developed the anticipation needed in the pro game. they wait for the receiver to make his break, take a couple of steps until the separation is crystal clear. they'll get sacked/pressured before thats able to happen. and on top of it they get happy feet

HarlemHeat37

09-16-2013, 11:57 PM

Agree with all, especially with Cousins over RG3andout, tbh..

Pelicans78

09-17-2013, 12:16 AM

I may replace Brees too. He's been average so far.

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 12:25 AM

RG3andout

:lmao goods

Holden_Caulfield

09-17-2013, 12:59 AM

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 01:12 AM

i dont want tebow on the jags. but henne has no potential and he'll never be better than he is now. so i'd rather have anybody, ANYBODY!! :pctoss

yeah thats how i felt about Flynn during the offseason. there was no point in trading for him in the first place. but yeah you guys are better off playing Gabbert than Henne. Henne has been what he is for years now.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 02:54 AM

Bill_Brasky

09-17-2013, 03:34 AM

yeah schiano is a shit coach. not ready to blame Freeman for the bucs struggles.

LkrFan

09-17-2013, 04:50 AM

Agree with all, especially with Cousins over RG3andout, tbh..
:lol

Raven

09-17-2013, 05:21 AM

Jaguars are fully aware since last year, they will draft a qb in the first round next year. Jets should should strictly draft offensive players before they decide what to do with any qb. Viks should roll with Ponder, they are not getting a better qb anytime soon, Glennon is imho the best prospect long term of this year, but he still has a long way to go.

Pelicans78

09-17-2013, 08:08 AM

Changing Tampa's quarterback won't help there. Their problem is coaching. They'd be 2-0 right now if they stopped committing stupid penalties and if Schiano let Freeman air it out like he did in 2010 and last year. The team should probably move on from both next season and ride Freeman this year and take a quarterback next draft if they don't get the first-overall pick.

Freeman sucks too. He's not good at all. He was awful against the Saints. If he played just an average game they would have won fairly easily. He made the Saints defense look above average.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 08:42 AM

Freeman sucks too. He's not good at all. He was awful against the Saints. If he played just an average game they would have won fairly easily. He made the Saints defense look above average.

He had six drops and a touchdown called back by penalty. He wasn't elite by any means, but he played well enough to win both weeks.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 08:49 AM

Josh Freeman has regressed each season despite the sizable talent upgrade around him. It's obvious to anyone with 2 eyes and a brain that he's not the future and is not going to magically "get it."

Bill_Brasky

09-17-2013, 08:53 AM

freeman would be decent on a good team. not his fault the bucs are a dumpster fire that hired a retard from rutgers.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 08:57 AM

Bill_Brasky

09-17-2013, 09:11 AM

:lolWhat? What more do you want offensively than 2 stud WR's and a beast RB? His offensive line is definitely decent, but it's hard to look good when your QB channels his inner Drew Bledsoe and sits in the pocket for 7 seconds.

His defense has allowed 32 total points this year. What team does he improve besides maybe Jacksonville?

I only saw the last drive of the jets game but everyone of them looked lost. every play had a dumb penalty. they are getting cowboysesque with their disorganization.

and yeah, they got to play the jets. that'll always make your defense look a lot better than it really is.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 09:14 AM

I only saw the last drive of the jets game but everyone of them looked lost. every play had a dumb penalty. they are getting cowboysesque with their disorganization.

and yeah, they got to play the jets. that'll always make your defense look a lot better than it really is.
and holding the Saints O to 14? The lightbulb's not coming on for this guy any time soon. 4-5 years in and he still holds onto the ball for an eternity and has absolutely no pocket presence. His ceiling is b/u material on a good team.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 09:17 AM

Josh Freeman has regressed each season despite the sizable talent upgrade around him. It's obvious to anyone with 2 eyes and a brain that he's not the future and is not going to magically "get it."

He just set franchise records for yards and touchdowns last season. He had a 25/6 regular season in 2010. He's incredibly inconsistent, but he's not clearly trending downward. I don't think it makes sense for the Bucs to commit to him long term, but that doesn't mean that replacing him with Glennon is going to make the team better.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 09:19 AM

He just set franchise records for yards and touchdowns last season. He had a 25/6 regular season in 2010. He's incredibly inconsistent, but he's not clearly trending downward. I don't think it makes sense for the Bucs to commit to him long term, but that doesn't mean that replacing him with Glennon is going to make the team better.
For a franchise with no HOF-caliber QB's (Steve Young does not apply b/c he was shit then), that's not saying much. Glennon is an unknown with a lot of upside. Freeman is a known quantity and not good enough. You can't do the things he did in Week 2 in your 4th-5th year--and let's be honest--he's going to do more of the same going forward.

Michael Jordan.

09-17-2013, 09:19 AM

Please let Gabbert be the Jags franchise QB for years to come. Let's not ruin a good thing now. :lol

Bigzax

09-17-2013, 09:23 AM

RG3 will rise again. He's just getting reps and strengthening that knee. This is his preseason. two more winnable games before a bye. Then the cowboys.

Trill Clinton

09-17-2013, 09:26 AM

the only team i think needs a qb change right now are the jags and maybe the titans. the other teams don't really have a backup in place that is that much better than the starter, so changing things up now will only make it worse.

as far as RG3, he needs to start. they kept him out of preseason so they should have expected him to be rusty.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 09:30 AM

Chinook

09-17-2013, 09:36 AM

For a franchise with no HOF-caliber QB's (Steve Young does not apply b/c he was shit then), that's not saying much. Glennon is an unknown with a lot of upside. Freeman is a known quantity and not good enough. You can't do the things he did in Week 2 in your 4th-5th year--and let's be honest--he's going to do more of the same going forward.

That franchise is 38 years old now, and a number of decent quarterbacks have come through for a few years. Obviously, no one is saying that Freeman is a franchise player, but there are much worse quarterbacks in the league. 4,000 yards is nothing to sneeze at. Also, there's nothing about Freeman that's "known" besides that he's an enigma. He can have really good years and really bad years. Even in bad years, he'd find a way to Roethlisberger his team down the field in critical moments. In 2010, that led to five comeback wins. Last year and this year, it's led to defensive collapses (this year by penalty and poor play-calling). While the Bucs are definitely better on paper than they were then, the team seems to have lost its killer instinct.

We're seeing bad Freeman now, for sure, but his backup is Dan Orlovsky because even Schiano doesn't think Glennon should start yet. If the Bucs don't led the league in penalties, they win both their games by at least a score. Pulling him for the rookie is conceding the season, for sure. You don't think they could be worse without Freeman? Tell that to teams that to the 2011 Colts and current Jaguars.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 09:37 AM

Getting stripped of your Captain duties by your teammates after 3 years of such a distinction is in no way indicative of how they think your career is going. He's a leader, and just needs a couple more years to develop, amirite?

I heard that vote was "rigged", and the players had their infamous meeting to address that. The media seems to think that Schiano fixed the vote to try to phase him out.

Here's an article about him denying it.

Bucs' Schiano: I didn't rig vote to keep Freeman from captain

Tampa
A few days after quarterback Josh Freeman missed the team photo, Bucs players cast ballots for team captains that were tabulated by coach Greg Schiano.

The results, announced Sept. 5, left Freeman out as an offensive captain for the first time in four years.

But questions as to the legitimacy of the vote might have prompted a players-only meeting before Sunday's season opener against the Jets, profootballtalk.com reported Wednesday. Schiano insisted he did not alter the results of the vote, which left receiver Vincent Jackson and guard Davin Joseph as offensive captains.

"The players vote. The votes are tabulated by me," Schiano told the Tampa Bay Times on Wednesday.

And Freeman wasn't voted a captain by the players?

"That's what I said, yes," Schiano said. "I know there's a story out there. It's 100 percent false. If there was such a thing as 102 percent, this would be it."

Freeman, 25, last was not a captain in 2009, his rookie season. He became one at the start of 2010, his first as a starter.

During his radio show Tuesday, Freeman said he voted for Vincent and Joseph.

"The simple fact is Davin and Vincent are great leaders," Freeman said. "Everybody wants to make it out like it's a demotion. I don't look at it like that. They don't look at it like that. Essentially, the conversations, the day-to-day actions are the same.

"It's something that Davin, coming off his injury, and Vincent, the type of offseason and type of year he had last year … I couldn't think of two better guys."

Former Bucs quarterback Shaun King, an analyst for NBC Sports Network, said Schiano's methods are not going over well with some players.

"There's a lot of disarray in Tampa," King said. "Some of the players felt there was an unfair counting of the captains vote. Greg Schiano is a micromanager, and it's starting to wear thin with some of the players. I don't think those guys are currently buying into the my-way-or-the-highway."

Schiano, who in 2012 went 7-9 in his first season after being hired from Rutgers, inherited Freeman, the Bucs' first-round pick in 2009.

Several times during this past offseason, Schiano indicated he wasn't sold on Freeman.

A day after the season, Schiano said he wanted to bring in competition at every position, including quarterback. At the owners meeting in March, he said he wasn't "wedded" to Freeman or any quarterback. A few months later, he said he wouldn't be upset if Mike Glennon, the Bucs' third-round pick in April, won the starting job.

In addition, the Bucs did not offer a new contract to Freeman, who now is in the final season of his rookie deal.

Schiano said he did not know where the story about the captains vote being rigged originated. But it became enough of an issue in the locker room to prompt the meeting, according to profootballtalk.com.

"The players know who they voted for," Schiano said Wednesday.

Jackson was elected captain before last season, his first with the Bucs. Joseph missed last season with a torn patellar tendon..

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/football/bucs/bucs-schiano-denies-story-he-changed-vote-to-keep-freeman-from-being/2141256

There's actually a lot of reports coming out about Schiano.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 09:44 AM

Are you his agent? He's the worst qb in the division, still makes rookie mistakes, and has already gotten one coach fired. Help me understand what you're watching.

Spur|n|Austin

09-17-2013, 10:12 AM

I'm baffled that the Jags did nothing about their QB situation in the offseason; it's almost laughable. Well, so are Romo and his boyfriend Garrett.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 10:23 AM

Are you his agent? He's the worst qb in the division, still makes rookie mistakes, and has already gotten one coach fired. Help me understand what you're watching.

His dad is his agent. So it really isn't that much better than some schmuck on a message board. :lol

It's too early to tell who's going to be worse out of him and Newton this season. It's safe to say he wasn't the worst quarterback in the division last year, and he wasn't in either 09 or 10. And being the worst quarterback in the NFCS isn't a necessarily bad thing. It's like being the worst defense in the AFCN.

He's a boom-or-bust player whose booms are great and whose busts are head-scratching. The stats level out to pretty damned mediocre. But the Bucs had BAD before Freeman, and his backup is about the personification of bad. The third-string is a player who looks worse than Freeman and whose coach (who hand-picked him in college and the pros) doesn't think is better than Orlovsky. Perhaps Glennon can pull a Flacco and go from third string to the AFCC or he can pull a Painter and just be terrible. But his good is likely to be nowhere hear Freeman's good, and his bad could be abysmal.

I don't know why I have to keep saying this: I don't think the Bucs should keep Freeman. He hasn't shown anything to deserve a long-term commitment, and he doesn't look comfortable out there anymore. But he's still their best quarterback, and the Bucs are much better off giving him the keys and letting him do whatever he wants with the offense and starting over next year than benching him and giving up on the season. Even with Freeman's play, the Bucs are a few mistakes away from being in first place in the division. They let him sandlot like he used to, who knows what will happen?

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 10:50 AM

if the Raiders beat the Skins in a couple of weeks RG3andout will be on the bench.

-credit to harlem

Holden_Caulfield

09-17-2013, 10:52 AM

I'm baffled that the Jags did nothing about their QB situation in the offseason; it's almost laughable. Well, so are Romo and his boyfriend Garrett.
because we are tanking for teddy!! no one was worth drafting or giving a contract to and most jags fans believe gabby needed one more chance so #1 pick here we come :lol

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 10:59 AM

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 11:53 AM

because we are tanking for teddy!! no one was worth drafting or giving a contract to and most jags fans believe gabby needed one more chance so #1 pick here we come :lol

your interior line also needs a little work. you've got the receivers, you've got MJD (though he may or may not be breaking down). you've got most pieces offensively. defense is a different animal

Chinook

09-17-2013, 12:59 PM

I'll tell you what happens--nothing. His booms have produced one 10-6 (no playpffs) season and dogshit the other 3 years. Freeman is the common denominator...coaches have changed, talent has been upgraded, yet there he stays.

2010 should have been a playoff year. It would have been had the officials not called Winslow for PI versus the Lions. The NFL had to come out the next day and admit the officials messed that one up (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/23/nfl-apologizes-to-bucs-for-kellen-winslow-td-that-didnt-count/). It's not remotely his fault the Bucs sucked last year. He threw for 4,000 yards and 27 touchdowns. The offense was ninth in the league in total yards and 13th in scoring. But their pass defense was ranked dead last, and they were 29th in total defense and 23rd in scoring.

I understand you probably don't watch a lot of Bucs games. I don't blame you. But it's incredibly superficial to blame Freeman just because he's there. There are teams like the Browns and Raiders who can't seem to turn it around no matter how many new coaches, players and front-office guys they seem to bring in. And it's not like Schiano was even that great of a coach at Rutgers. He went .500 there. We're not talking about Freeman failing with Belichick as his coach here.

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 01:03 PM

There are teams like the Browns and Raiders who can't seem to turn it around no matter how many new coaches, players and front-office guys they seem to bring in.
:depressed

Chinook

09-17-2013, 01:13 PM

:depressed

You know it's true. I can't explain it, but the team just seems cursed since Tampa beat them. I like a lot of what they're doing now, but they're The Bills West.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 01:23 PM

2010 should have been a playoff year. It would have been had the officials not called Winslow for PI versus the Lions. The NFL had to come out the next day and admit the officials messed that one up (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/23/nfl-apologizes-to-bucs-for-kellen-winslow-td-that-didnt-count/). It's not remotely his fault the Bucs sucked last year. He threw for 4,000 yards and 27 touchdowns. The offense was ninth in the league in total yards and 13th in scoring. But their pass defense was ranked dead last, and they were 29th in total defense and 23rd in scoring.

I understand you probably don't watch a lot of Bucs games. I don't blame you. But it's incredibly superficial to blame Freeman just because he's there. There are teams like the Browns and Raiders who can't seem to turn it around no matter how many new coaches, players and front-office guys they seem to bring in. And it's not like Schiano was even that great of a coach at Rutgers. He went .500 there. We're not talking about Freeman failing with Belichick as his coach here.

I understand you probably don't watch a lot of football, but when a QB consistently makes rookie mistakrs in his fifth year then you havr to accept that it's just not going to ever happen for him He's also a black big 12 qb, so that makes his prospectsdoubly bleak. You yourself said he's not the longterm answer, so your solution is to impede progress and go down with a sinking ship. Sound stratrgy.

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 01:24 PM

You know it's true. I can't explain it, but the team just seems cursed since Tampa beat them. I like a lot of what they're doing now, but they're The Bills West.

we were in a good direction when Hue Jackson was around. The incredibly short sighted Palmer trade is what did us in. A team looking to get over the hump found themselves with no high draft picks and an over the hill QB who instantly became the biggest contract on the team. I still think Palmer can be successful given the situation, but he's not a game-changing talent that he used to be. After the first 1-2 games of getting acclimated, Palmer played really well for us for that half season, then Hue got canned. Resigning Seymour to 2 years 30 million was retarded too. I was fine with trading for him, but that second contract was foolish. This is now our 2nd consecutive year with 30 million or so in dead money

Holden_Caulfield

09-17-2013, 01:27 PM

:depressed
cheer up buttercup, you guys beat my jags :cheer

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 01:31 PM

cheer up buttercup, you guys beat my jags :cheer

:lol I actually lol'ed

Chinook

09-17-2013, 01:50 PM

I understand you probably don't watch a lot of football, but when a QB consistently makes rookie mistakrs in his fifth year then you havr to accept that it's just not going to ever happen for him He's also a black big 12 qb, so that makes his prospectsdoubly bleak. You yourself said he's not the longterm answer, so your solution is to impede progress and go down with a sinking ship. Sound stratrgy.

I didn't say that you probably didn't watch a lot of Bucs games to offend you, by the way. I just don't think many people do, and they make assumptions based on stat sheets or talking heads. When your biggest justifications for hating on a player are his race and conference, you can understand why I said your analysis is superficial.

I've watched every game Freeman has played in the pros. There's no question that he still plays like a rookie. But when he's on, he plays like a rookie sensation. His problem isn't that he hasn't progressed; it's that he seems to regress any time someone tries to get him to fix his issues. Same thing happens with Big Ben. So Freeman's not a long-term solution. They won't be able to keep him for what he's worth (they'd have to overpay because of incumbency), and they probably should just start over. But he's Tampa's best chance to make the playoffs this season. If he can drag a terrible offense to 10-6 in 2010 with his backyard antics, imagine what he could do with Jackson and Ogletree.

We disagree that starting Glennon is progress. He's not better than Freeman now, and odds are, he never will be. Half the quarterbacks in the league are below average, and the Bucs seem to find three of those to keep on their roster every season. I honestly don't even consider starting him ever, unless the Bucs manage to get Clowney in the draft. I said, he could be the next Flacco. But it almost never works to rush a rookie in mid-season just because he's there. Ride Freeman this season. Best-case scenario, he leads the team to the playoffs. Worst case, the Bucs get a high draft pick to get a true franchise quarterback. That seems like a sound strategy to me.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 01:53 PM

we were in a good direction when Hue Jackson was around. The incredibly short sighted Palmer trade is what did us in. A team looking to get over the hump found themselves with no high draft picks and an over the hill QB who instantly became the biggest contract on the team. I still think Palmer can be successful given the situation, but he's not a game-changing talent that he used to be. After the first 1-2 games of getting acclimated, Palmer played really well for us for that half season, then Hue got canned. Resigning Seymour to 2 years 30 million was retarded too. I was fine with trading for him, but that second contract was foolish. This is now our 2nd consecutive year with 30 million or so in dead money

I hated the Palmer trade. I would rather have let Pryor get some time then and look to re-sign Campbell. I thought he was doing well there. From what I hear, Jackson is not well liked around the league. He was Flacco's coach his rookie year, and supposedly the team was not sad to see him go.

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 02:00 PM

I hated the Palmer trade. I would rather have let Pryor get some time then and look to re-sign Campbell. I thought he was doing well there. From what I hear, Jackson is not well liked around the league. He was Flacco's coach his rookie year, and supposedly the team was not sad to see him go.
the raiders were seeing results from Hubert, so he was fine. There was less than 0 chance of Pryor playing that year. He was JUST coming off his 6 game suspension after being taken in the supplemental draft. and Campbell got hurt week 6. The team was playing well that year and was leading the division at that point (4-2). They knew they wouldn't be able to ride Kyle Boller. unfortunately they sac'd the future to try to get into the playoffs. it almost worked too. we lost to the chiefs and broncos the next 2 games, but were 7-4 and ahead of the division. our defense collapsed and we last 4 of our last 5. Campbell was doing really well for us, and he could have been resigned for way cheaper than the Palmer contract we inherited. There was no FO at the time, as Al Davis had just passed and we didn't have a GM, so Hue was the defacto GM and being a head coach, he wanted immediate wins, so he pushed HARD for the Palmer trade. blew up in his face when we didn't make it, and he made the mistake of throwing the players under the bus after our week 17 loss. but pryor was NOT going to play an it would have been a lost cause if Boller was actually going to start. problem is, it was lost anyway

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 02:01 PM

I didn't say that you probably didn't watch a lot of Bucs games to offend you, by the way. I just don't think many people do, and they make assumptions based on stat sheets or talking heads. When your biggest justifications for hating on a player are his race and conference, you can understand why I said your analysis is superficial.

I've watched every game Freeman has played in the pros. There's no question that he still plays like a rookie. But when he's on, he plays like a rookie sensation. His problem isn't that he hasn't progressed; it's that he seems to regress any time someone tries to get him to fix his issues. Same thing happens with Big Ben. So Freeman's not a long-term solution. They won't be able to keep him for what he's worth (they'd have to overpay because of incumbency), and they probably should just start over. But he's Tampa's best chance to make the playoffs this season. If he can drag a terrible offense to 10-6 in 2010 with his backyard antics, imagine what he could do with Jackson and Ogletree.

We disagree that starting Glennon is progress. He's not better than Freeman now, and odds are, he never will be. Half the quarterbacks in the league are below average, and the Bucs seem to find three of those to keep on their roster every season. I honestly don't even consider starting him ever, unless the Bucs manage to get Clowney in the draft. I said, he could be the next Flacco. But it almost never works to rush a rookie in mid-season just because he's there. Ride Freeman this season. Best-case scenario, he leads the team to the playoffs. Worst case, the Bucs get a high draft pick to get a true franchise quarterback. That seems like a sound strategy to me.

You're better than Freeman right now. I'm guessing you wanted the Ravens to hang onto Kyle Boller for a few more seasons, right? I'm sure he would've eventually turned the corner too.
The better strategy--since it's quite obvious they're outmatched in their division and conference--is too scrap the failed experiment and have the rookie get his feet wet in a season where he'll have no pressure on him. They'll more than likely finish the same (no playoffs) and still have a shot to land a top pick, but will have given the new guy valuable experience along the way. You go into 2014 with a more comfortable young QB and good draft spot.

I'm guessing you wanted the Ravens to hang onto Kyle Boller for a few more seasons, right? I'm sure he would've eventually turned the corner too.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 02:12 PM

I didn't say that you probably didn't watch a lot of Bucs games to offend you, by the way. I just don't think many people do, and they make assumptions based on stat sheets or talking heads.

Which is exactly what you did when you threw out the "they were 9th in passing and 4000 yards is nothing to look down upon" nonsense. Couple of things:

-4000yds may be nothing to look down upon, but it's obviously no longer something to look up to, either--especially when the likes of Tony Romo, Matt Stafford, and other BETTER inconsistent QBs do it all the time.

-Freeman was 19th in QB rating LAST YEAR AND HAS BEEN THE LAST IN HIS DIVISION FOR 3 STRAIGHT YEARS. But keep on cheery-picking stats to support ol' Sambo.

btw, stop bringing up 2010, he's been ridiculously unclutch and inconsistent (on his best days) since that season. As for 2012, a lot of empty stats there. 27-17 OMGZZZ! Fitzpatrick had 24 and 16 with only a b/u running back and a one-legged receiver last year. He also had a better QBR.

I'm telling it like it is and you tell it like it might be.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 02:18 PM

You're better than Freeman right now. I'm guessing you wanted the Ravens to hang onto Kyle Boller for a few more seasons, right? I'm sure he would've eventually turned the corner too.
The better strategy--since it's quite obvious they're outmatched in their division and conference--is too scrap the failed experiment and have the rookie get his feet wet in a season where he'll have no pressure on him. They'll more than likely finish the same (no playoffs) and still have a shot to land a top pick, but will have given the new guy valuable experience along the way. You go into 2014 with a more comfortable young QB and good draft spot.

I'm guessing you wanted the Ravens to hang onto Kyle Boller for a few more seasons, right? I'm sure he would've eventually turned the corner too.

Yeah, this is why I keep saying you have a superficial view of the Freeman situation. He's not Boller at all. Boller never had stats half as good as Freeman did last year. Boller never had a top-10 offense, even though he did have some talented players and the best offensive lineman in the game protecting his blind side. Boller also had an injury problem, and he crumbled mentally very early in his career. Despite what you keep saying, Freeman is not universally considered a terrible quarterback in the way that Boller was or Gabbert is. Actually, all the media talks about is how Schiano is failing him. So you have to come back with more than just, "It's obvious Freeman is a terrible quarterback." He had the stats last year, and even without them this year, he put his team in position to win both games. That's more than you can say for teams that have truly bad quarterbacks starting for them now.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 02:25 PM

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 02:29 PM

he put his team in position to win both games.

7 points of offense yesterday (23 total on the season). If that's not putting your team in a position to win I don't know what is.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 02:30 PM

Which is exactly what you did when you threw out the "they were 9th in passing and 4000 yards is nothing to look down upon" nonsense. Couple of things:

-4000yds may be nothing to look down upon, but it's obviously no longer something to look up to, either--especially when the likes of Tony Romo, Matt Stafford, and other BETTER inconsistent QBs do it all the time.

-Freeman was 19th in QB rating LAST YEAR AND HAS BEEN THE LAST IN HIS DIVISION FOR 3 STRAIGHT YEARS. But keep on cheery-picking stats to support ol' Sambo.

btw, stop bringing up 2010, he's been ridiculously unclutch and inconsistent (on his best days) since that season. As for 2012, a lot of empty stats there. 27-17 OMGZZZ! Fitzpatrick had 24 and 16 with only a b/u running back and a one-legged receiver last year. He also had a better QBR.

I'm telling it like it is and you tell it like it might be.

I didn't "throw out" those stats. I brought them up since you seemed to be arguing that he's been awful. You aren't awful if you're the statistical equal to two quarterbacks who just got big contract extensions. Also 19th in the NFL isn't terrible and needing to be replaced immediately. It's mediocre ... which is what I've been saying this whole time. You seem to think that 32nd is the same thing as 19th, and it's not.

No, Freeman has not been "ridiculously unclutch." That shows that you didn't actually watch Tampa last season. It's like saying he's been unclutch so far this season. He played very well on both of the offense's final drives so far. It wasn't he to hit Smith out of bounds, or who missed the field goal and let Brees march down the field. That's why I said the team has lost it's killer instinct. Freeman's been the same in the fourth quarter; the difference is the rest of the team fails to do their parts closing out games.

You're not telling it like it is. You're telling it like you think it is. You think it's like that because you've already made up your mind that it's Freeman's fault that the Bucs can't win without looking at what is actually going on. I AM telling it like it is. I said Freeman is mediocre, and the numbers bear that out. You seem to think I keep saying he's been good, and I keep stressing that I don't think that. But I also say that the Bucs best chance to win this year is hoping that Freeman has a good year. That is telling it like it is. What's not is saying that they should abort the season after barely losing two games.

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 02:31 PM

Carson Palmer is better than Josh Freeman at this point in time

Chinook

09-17-2013, 02:32 PM

7 points of offense yesterday (23 total on the season). If that's not putting your team in a position to win I don't know what is.

You seem not to. Putting a team in a position to win is literally driving them down the field and setting up a field goal with less than a minute left. That's pretty much what Freeman has done for the last two weeks. No one is saying that he's taken over the game and put on a passing clinic. But he has stepped up in the big moments.

Holden_Caulfield

09-17-2013, 02:36 PM

i'd take freeman on the jags, at least he can stand tall and take hits.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 02:37 PM

I didn't "throw out" those stats. I brought them up since you seemed to be arguing that he's been awful. You aren't awful if you're the statistical equal to two quarterbacks who just got big contract extensions. Also 19th in the NFL isn't terrible and needing to be replaced immediately. It's mediocre ... which is what I've been saying this whole time. You seem to think that 32nd is the same thing as 19th, and it's not.

No, Freeman has not been "ridiculously unclutch." That shows that you didn't actually watch Tampa last season. It's like saying he's been unclutch so far this season. He played very well on both of the offense's final drives so far. It wasn't he to hit Smith out of bounds, or who missed the field goal and let Brees march down the field. That's why I said the team has lost it's killer instinct. Freeman's been the same in the fourth quarter; the difference is the rest of the team fails to do their parts closing out games.

You're not telling it like it is. You're telling it like you think it is. You think it's like that because you've already made up your mind that it's Freeman's fault that the Bucs can't win without looking at what is actually going on. I AM telling it like it is. I said Freeman is mediocre, and the numbers bear that out. You seem to think I keep saying he's been good, and I keep stressing that I don't think that. But I also say that the Bucs best chance to win this year is hoping that Freeman has a good year. That is telling it like it is. What's not is saying that they should abort the season after barely losing two games.
Which is why you can't be taken seriously. You don't know anything about what Glennon could be--you only assume (which is what I did about him). All that's known is he has a big arm and has some upside. We know what Freeman is--4+ years of evidence tells us what he is.

You should be a GM. The "hope" and pray strategy you outlined is a great take:tu

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 02:38 PM

You seem not to. Putting a team in a position to win is literally driving them down the field and setting up a field goal with less than a minute left. That's pretty much what Freeman has done for the last two weeks. No one is saying that he's taken over the game and put on a passing clinic. But he has stepped up in the big moments.

God bless fanbois

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 02:39 PM

Carson Palmer is better than Josh Freeman at this point in time

Stoney Case is too.

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 02:40 PM

Chinook

09-17-2013, 02:41 PM

I agree Freeman is better than Boller, but it's funny to watch you go back to the stats argument to support your cause when you villified it earlier. You have a thing for Freeman, I get it. Game tape--and coincidentally, stats--say he's shit.

27 and 17 with one of the better offensive lines and running attacks. Well I am overfuckingwhelmed. Nobody does less with more than Josh Freeman. Give Cam Newton Doug Martin, Vincent Jackson, Mike Williams, et al. Blaine Gabbert is terrible but at least he can say the best option he's ever had is Cecil Shorts.

5 years of no progress in today's passing league tells me you're not a quality NFL starter.

Tampa had a bad offensive line. They lost Joseph in pre-season and Nicks mid-season. They had to replace Trueblood at RT and really wanted to get rid of Zuttah at center. They played decently all things considered, but they struggled in pass protection. Meanwhile, the Panthers have a stable of running backs who are each better than anyone Freeman's ever had outside of Muscle Hampster. They also have a better line. Not the best example. Gabbert has Blackmon as well as Shorts. Sure, Jackson is better than both of them, but it's not like receiver corp is the Jag's problem.

I said that some people "just" look at stats. I brought them up as a easy-to-see example in addition to talking about things that only come from actually watching the game and the general national opinion of him. You just sit on your haunches and declare 4,000 yards terrible and pretend that the whole world agrees with you and that you don't need to provide any more evidence for your claims.

Also, I didn't just cite Boller's stats. He pretty much checked out mentally when the Ravens fans booed him after he got injured his second season. Dude had no fortitude.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 02:43 PM

Chinook

09-17-2013, 02:44 PM

so basically tebow

This year, pretty much. Even so, was the 2011 Bronco's biggest problem that they had Tebow at quarterback? Seems like they did just fine. Then they replaced him in the off-season.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 02:48 PM

When you go to the Tebow defense, you're an exposed fanboi and are deemed incapable of rational thought

No. Putting your team in a position to win literally means that. It doesn't mean having a good game in general, like you seem to be asserting.

Tebow put his team in a position to win, but he wasn't a long-term solution. The Broncos had a chance to upgrade in the off-season, and they took it. They didn't just bench him (even though Elway really wanted to) just because.

And you're the one with the minority view on this. I'm saying Freeman is better than Glennon. Almost everyone with a shred of objectivity agrees with me there.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 02:48 PM

Tampa had a bad offensive line. They lost Joseph in pre-season and Nicks mid-season. They had to replace Trueblood at RT and really wanted to get rid of Zuttah at center. They played decently all things considered, but they struggled in pass protection. Meanwhile, the Panthers have a stable of running backs who are each better than anyone Freeman's ever had outside of Muscle Hampster. They also have a better line. Not the best example. Gabbert has Blackmon as well as Shorts. Sure, Jackson is better than both of them, but it's not like receiver corp is the Jag's problem.

I said that some people "just" look at stats. I brought them up as a easy-to-see example in addition to talking about things that only come from actually watching the game and the general national opinion of him. You just sit on your haunches and declare 4,000 yards terrible and pretend that the whole world agrees with you and that you don't need to provide any more evidence for your claims.

Also, I didn't just cite Boller's stats. He pretty much checked out mentally when the Ravens fans booed him after he got injured his second season. Dude had no fortitude.
Holy hell what a dishonest fanboi you are. Freeman was the 3rd least-sacked full-time starter last year behind the Mannings and had one of the best running attacks in the game. Now you'll credit Freeman with avoiding these "offensive line struggles" that you've conjured up by saying he avoided all those--despite his notoriety for sitting in the pocket for an eternity.

2-3 mediocre backs (mediocre at best considering their production since 2009) is not better than a Top-5 RB. Don't be dumber than you're already making yourself out to be in this thread

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 02:49 PM

No. Putting your team in a position to win literally means that. It doesn't mean having a good game in general, like you seem to be asserting.

Tebow put his team in a position to win, but he wasn't a long-term solution. The Broncos had a chance to upgrade in the off-season, and they took it. They didn't just bench him (even though Elway really wanted to) just because.

And you're the one with the minority view on this. I'm saying Freeman is better than Glennon. Almost everyone with a shred of objectivity agrees with me there.
You mean all the black commentators on NFL Network? Yeah, they're all on your side, buddy:tu

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 02:53 PM

Chinook

09-17-2013, 02:59 PM

Holy hell what a dishonest fanboi you are. Freeman was the 3rd least-sacked full-time starter last year behind the Mannings and had one of the best running attacks in the game. Now you'll credit Freeman with avoiding these "offensive line struggles" that you've conjured up by saying he avoided all those--despite his notoriety for sitting in the pocket for an eternity.

2-3 mediocre backs (mediocre at best considering their production since 2009) is not better than a Top-5 RB. Don't be dumber than you're already making yourself out to be in this thread

First, I didn't say they were better than Martin. I said they were better than anyone Freeman ever had besides Martin. Before criticizing people for their lack of intelligence, fix that reading comprehension.

I also didn't say anything about the Bucs not having a good rushing attack. They did, due to Martin being a great workhorse. But Schiano actually got criticized for not using Blount enough last year.

Anyway, I digress. You seem keep misunderstanding everything I'm saying. No one in this thread has claimed Freeman is a good quarterback. I've said two things: first that Freeman is not terrible (and the only argument you have that he is is just your opinion) and second that staying with him is most likely the best course of action for the Bucs this season. Somehow, you glean from that that I am saying Freeman deserves an extension and that nothing has been his fault. There's a big gap between not agreeing that Freeman needs to be benched in favor of a rookie and being a fan boy of his.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 03:01 PM

When you're statistically the worst QB in your division for 3 years (and definitely going on a 4th), it's time to make a change. Most NFL GMs don't have the luxury of sitting idly by watching re-runs.

Yeah, and they can make a change next season. Being 19th in the league last season doesn't scream immediate overhaul to me.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 03:03 PM

Incidentally, is anyone else getting posts deleted and new posts (from other posters) popping in later? It's weird.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 03:09 PM

Yeah, and they can make a change next season. Being 19th in the league last season doesn't scream immediate overhaul to me.

It doesn't take 5 years for a QB to develop. When you can't break into the upper half of the league in half a decade, then yeah--an immediate overhaul is needed. He had every weapon at his disposal last year, finished last in his division in QBR, and 19th in the league. That's acceptable if you're A: a rookie or 2nd year guy or B: a proven winner that's not necessarily a statwhore.

When you make the Saints D look like the 85 Bears, it's time to fucking go

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 03:15 PM

First, I didn't say they were better than Martin. I said they were better than anyone Freeman ever had besides Martin. Before criticizing people for their lack of intelligence, fix that reading comprehension.

I also didn't say anything about the Bucs not having a good rushing attack. They did, due to Martin being a great workhorse. But Schiano actually got criticized for not using Blount enough last year.

Anyway, I digress. You seem keep misunderstanding everything I'm saying. No one in this thread has claimed Freeman is a good quarterback. I've said two things: first that Freeman is not terrible (and the only argument you have that he is is just your opinion) and second that staying with him is most likely the best course of action for the Bucs this season. Somehow, you glean from that that I am saying Freeman deserves an extension and that nothing has been his fault. There's a big gap between not agreeing that Freeman needs to be benched in favor of a rookie and being a fan boy of his.

First, you said those stable of backs are better than anyone Freeman has had since Martin. Well that's a whole 3 years, and didn't the Bucs outrush Carolina in 2010? Not sure, but if so that puts it at 2-2--so, wrong again.

Second, since you didn't address the allegations that you conjured up the Bucs' offensive line struggles, I take it you concede that point. Injuries and struggles are 2 entirely different things. The Bills have had injuries along their line the last 2 years but they've been a damn good unit regardless.

Yes, you're just misunderstood. You can't see how sticking with a losing formula is stupid and ultimately wastes another year.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 03:20 PM

It doesn't take 5 years for a QB to develop. When you can't break into the upper half of the league in half a decade, then yeah--an immediate overhaul is needed. He had every weapon at his disposal last year, finished last in his division in QBR, and 19th in the league. That's acceptable if you're A: a rookie or 2nd year guy or B: a proven winner that's not necessarily a statwhore.

When you make the Saints D look like the 85 Bears, it's time to fucking go

I don't get it. So what if it doesn't take five years to a quarterback to develop? We're not talking about extending Freeman. We're talking about keeping him this season. If he's the best quarterback on the roster, then he should play. In general, 19th is not horrible. It's below average, but only barely. There were 13 worse quarterbacks out there last year. That means something. If Freeman is 19 in QBR this season, the Bucs should be a playoff team. If the Bucs passing defense were 19th last season, the Bucs would have at least been .500. The Bucs can win with 2012 Freeman if they clean up their penalties. But are they likely to win if Glennon comes in and is 28th or worse? No.

And would you please stop repping division QBR? What does that even have to do with anything? It's not like they're H2H records or something (which is actually concerning).

Chinook

09-17-2013, 03:32 PM

First, you said those stable of backs are better than anyone Freeman has had since Martin. Well that's a whole 3 years, and didn't the Bucs outrush Carolina in 2010? Not sure, but if so that puts it at 2-2--so, wrong again.

Second, since you didn't address the allegations that you conjured up the Bucs' offensive line struggles, I take it you concede that point. Injuries and struggles are 2 entirely different things. The Bills have had injuries along their line the last 2 years but they've been a damn good unit regardless.

Yes, you're just misunderstood. You can't see how sticking with a losing formula is stupid and ultimately wastes another year.

So the year that the Bucs got more production out of the their backs than Carolina did out of theirs, Tampa finished 10-6 with Freeman having a QBR of 96.2, and you consider than a plus for your argument? I was actually referring to the talent of the backs rather than the stats they put up, but since that's ambiguous, I don't have a problem saying I was wrong about 2010, whatever satisfaction that gives you.

The line played decently (16th and 17th in run and pass blocking according to PFF), but they weren't world-beaters. I fail to see how 16th is "one of the better" while 19th is incredibly horrible.

The Bucs don't have "another year." They just have this year. The way things are going for Schiano, he needs to produce this season. If Freeman is going to help him do that more than Glennon, he has to keep him in.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 03:32 PM

I don't get it. So what if it doesn't take five years to a quarterback to develop? We're not talking about extending Freeman. We're talking about keeping him this season. If he's the best quarterback on the roster, then he should play. In general, 19th is not horrible. It's below average, but only barely. There were 13 worse quarterbacks out there last year. That means something. If Freeman is 19 in QBR this season, the Bucs should be a playoff team. If the Bucs passing defense were 19th last season, the Bucs would have at least been .500. The Bucs can win with 2012 Freeman if they clean up their penalties. But are they likely to win if Glennon comes in and is 28th worse? No.

And would you please stop repping division QBR? What does that even have to do with anything? It's not like they're H2H records or something (which is actually concerning).
You're talking about delaying the inevitable for the off-chance TB somehow goes 10-4 the rest of the season. Also, stop claiming Glennon is such a worse option when in reality you have no fucking clue what he is. He's not Josh Freeman, which right now (and for over 75% of his career) is a good thing.
You brought up stats first, so don't go crying when I give you some. He is statistically the worst QB in the division--that's kind of important in a QB-driven league. He's been the face of a team that's visibly quit the last 2 seasons. 10 game losing streak in 2011, losers of 5/6 to finish 2012--lone win in the finale against Atlanta's B-team.

Give the white guy who doesn't have the 1000-yd stare a crack at an offense with such a sweet display of weapons. Give the fans something different than a loser and a quitter

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 03:39 PM

So the year that the Bucs got more production out of the their backs than Carolina did out of theirs, Tampa finished 10-6 with Freeman having a QBR of 96.2, and you consider than a plus for your argument? I was actually referring to the talent of the backs rather than the stats they put up, but since that's ambiguous, I don't have a problem saying I was wrong about 2010, whatever satisfaction that gives you.

The line played decently (16th and 17th in run and pass blocking according to PFF), but they weren't world-beaters. I fail to see how 16th is "one of the better" while 19th is incredibly horrible.

The Bucs don't have "another year." They just have this year. The way things are going for Schiano, he needs to produce this season. If Freeman is going to help him do that more than Glennon, he has to keep him in.

Okay, so in summation your entire argument for the Bucs keeping Freeman in there is "we can only hope he gets better" and/or "I guess it could be worse?"

No thanks, I'd try to re-energize the team with new blood while the season is still young. If it doesn't equate to wins then at least the young gun is getting valuable work. We sure as shit know Freeman's not taking them to the playoffs (if you disagree then I'd love to make a wager with you).

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 03:45 PM

It comes down to this: Chinook, would you be willing to bet $500 on Freeman taking them to the playoffs? Someone should ask Schiano if he's willing to bet his job on it. If the answer is no, then there's no reason Freeman should be in there.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 03:46 PM

You're talking about delaying the inevitable for the off-chance TB somehow goes 10-4 the rest of the season. Also, stop claiming Glennon is such a worse option when in reality you have no fucking clue what he is. He's not Josh Freeman, which right now (and for over 75% of his career) is a good thing.
You brought up stats first, so don't go crying when I give you some. He is statistically the worst QB in the division--that's kind of important in a QB-driven league. He's been the face of a team that's visibly quit the last 2 seasons. 10 game losing streak in 2011, losers of 5/6 to finish 2012--lone win in the finale against Atlanta's B-team.

Give the white guy who doesn't have the 1000-yd stare a crack at an offense with such a sweet display of weapons. Give the fans something different than a loser and a quitter

The Bucs have to play for the oft chance. Schiano doesn't have a year to waste on a young quarterback. That's why he isn't even letting Glennon be the backup. I'm not claiming I know what Glennon is going to do (I've said he COULD be the next Flacco for all I know). But he is likely to struggle and put up worse numbers than Freeman did last season. Again, being 19th means there are 13 or more worse quarterbacks out there starting games. Glennon could be better this season, but he's not likely to be.

I am not crying about stats. I just think that stat is pointless. Being the worst quarterback in a division with Brees, Ryan and first-overall pick Newton is not a bad thing. It's like lambasting the 2011 Browns for being the worst defense in their division, when they ranked 10 in the league.

The whole point of what I'm saying is that the Bucs could get a lot worse than they are. Sure, they could get better; but that's not very likely. You seem to think that Glennon almost has to be better than Freeman, and we disagree.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 03:52 PM

Okay, so in summation your entire argument for the Bucs keeping Freeman in there is "we can only hope he gets better" and/or "I guess it could be worse?"

No thanks, I'd try to re-energize the team with new blood while the season is still young. If it doesn't equate to wins then at least the young gun is getting valuable work. We sure as shit know Freeman's not taking them to the playoffs (if you disagree then I'd love to make a wager with you).

The summation of my argument is that the Bucs should do everything in their power to get to the playoffs this season. That means cutting Freeman loose and not running on 3 and 7 and missing a 50+ yard field goal. If Freeman plays like he did last season, the Bucs will be a lot better. The NFC is better, so I don't know if they make the playoffs, but I think it's very possible.

But because they won't, I don't think the Bucs are a playoff team. I would not take your bet, but Schiano should, since he'll lose his job in any scenario that doesn't involve Freeman getting there. You think Freeman is the black mark on the team, but he's not (or at least not the only one). You really should look up how bad things are getting between Schiano and his players right now. If they're really on Freeman's side, then replacing him is not going to motivate the team at all.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 03:53 PM

The Bucs have to play for the oft chance. Schiano doesn't have a year to waste on a young quarterback. That's why he isn't even letting Glennon be the backup. I'm not claiming I know what Glennon is going to do (I've said he COULD be the next Flacco for all I know). But he is likely to struggle and put up worse numbers than Freeman did last season. Again, being 19th means there are 13 or more worse quarterbacks out there starting games. Glennon could be better this season, but he's not likely to be.

I am not crying about stats. I just think that stat is pointless. Being the worst quarterback in a division with Brees, Ryan and first-overall pick Newton is not a bad thing. It's like lambasting the 2011 Browns for being the worst defense in their division, when they ranked 10 in the league.

The whole point of what I'm saying is that the Bucs could get a lot worse than they are. Sure, they could get better; but that's not very likely. You seem to think that Glennon almost has to be better than Freeman, and we disagree.

Okay change divisions: I'd take Vick, Manning, RG3, and Romo over Freeman in the East. I'd take Rodgers, Stafford, and Cutler over him in the North. Unquestionably the least accomplished QB in the NFC West too. So he beats out Ponder in the NFC. yay.

In the NFC East, Manuel and Tannehill look good so far, but they are very early returns. Geno looks like the next Josh Freeman, but he's probably worse. He could start on the Titans, Jags, Raiders, and Browns--all teams with incredibly inept QB play. He'd be a b/u or 3rd stringer on every other NFL team not mentioned.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 03:55 PM

The summation of my argument is that the Bucs should do everything in their power to get to the playoffs this season. That means cutting Freeman loose and not running on 3 and 7 and missing a 50+ yard field goal. If Freeman plays like he did last season, the Bucs will be a lot better. The NFC is better, so I don't know if they make the playoffs, but I think it's very possible.

But because they won't, I don't think the Bucs are a playoff team. I would not take your bet, but Schiano should, since he'll lose his job in any scenario that doesn't involve Freeman getting there. You think Freeman is the black mark on the team, but he's not (or at least not the only one). You really should look up how bad things are getting between Schiano and his players right now. If they're really on Freeman's side, then replacing him is not going to motivate the team at all.

Yup, it's really Schiano's fault. It was Schiano's fault when the team quit in 2011 too.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 03:58 PM

If you were a coach or GM Bledsoe would've gotten his job back when he was healthy in 2001. Judging by your rationale, it's safe to say Tommy Maddox would've been Pittsburgh's starter for a couple more years too.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 04:00 PM

Chinook

09-17-2013, 04:04 PM

Yup, it's really Schiano's fault. It was Schiano's fault when the team quit in 2011 too.

Wait, that was Freeman's fault? Are you under some illusion that Raheem Morris was a good coach?

Anyhow, it can be both of their faults. The whole point is that if players like Freeman more than Schiano, then benching Freeman is not going to make them like Schiano anymore.

If you were a coach or GM Bledsoe would've gotten his job back when he was healthy in 2001. Judging by your rationale, it's safe to say Tommy Maddox would've been Pittsburgh's starter for a couple more years too.

I don't even...

You act like Glennon's already proven to be better. If he had come in for Freeman for a few weeks and looked awesome and got wins, then it would be obvious he could get the job done. But it's not. Neither Brady or Roethlisberger started over their veteran challengers for the hell of it. They came in due to necessity and then produced. If anything, they're counter examples to your point.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 04:05 PM

The Vikings made the playoffs with Ponder, but his backup was so awful that they got worked over by the Packers. The Chiefs made the 2010 playoffs with Cassel, and his backup was even worse. It's not easy to replace below-average quarterbacks mid-season. Usually, the backups aren't starting for a reason (especially third-stringers). It can get worse, and it usually does.

I don't have too much of an issue with your list, but that doesn't mean that Glennon is going to come in a be an upgrade.
At what point did I say he was going to be an immediate upgrade? He's new blood, which is what that team with a 2-year quitting stench needs. If he plays well and TB finishes 8-8 with excitement for next year, maybe Schiano keeps his job. If your whole argument is "what's in the best interest for Schiano?," then you might have somewhat of a point. If the argument is "what's best for the franchise?", well...that's just too fucking easy.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 04:08 PM

Wait, that was Freeman's fault? Are you under some illusion that Raheem Morris was a good coach?

Anyhow, it can be both of their faults. The whole point is that if players like Freeman more than Schiano, then benching Freeman is not going to make them like Schiano anymore.

I don't even...

You act like Glennon's already proven to be better. If he had come in for Freeman for a few weeks and looked awesome and got wins, then it would be obvious he could get the job done. But it's not. Neither Brady or Roethlisberger started over their veteran challengers for the hell of it. They came in due to necessity and then produced. If anything, they're counter examples to your point.

Are you under some illusion that 2 straight years of quitting is somehow not his fault? When he gets coach #2 fired and still fails to make the playoffs, will you stfu and get with the program?

Chinook

09-17-2013, 04:17 PM

At what point did I say he was going to be an immediate upgrade? He's new blood, which is what that team with a 2-year quitting stench needs. If he plays well and TB finishes 8-8 with excitement for next year, maybe Schiano keeps his job. If your whole argument is "what's in the best interest for Schiano?," then you might have somewhat of a point. If the argument is "what's best for the franchise?", well...that's just too fucking easy.

We're both talking about major hypotheticals here. You're saying if Glennon turns out to be better, the Bucs will have hope for next year. And I don't think he will and that starting him will almost certainly cost Schiano his job, especially if the players quit on him. I think that if Freeman plays like he did last year, the Bucs will be competitive for a playoff spot. You don't think so.

To me, I think the franchise needs to put it all in to making the playoffs this season and completely blowing up their braintrust if it fails. I would rather them get a top-tier quarterback in the draft than try to ride with Glennon if Freeman can't get it done. But there are indeed scenarios where having Glennon as the young quarterback make sense. But that's only if they could get an starting-caliber quarterback in free agency so they don't have to hand the reigns over to Glennon simply because he's the only one there. If there was any single thing that torpedoed the Bucs' roster, it's the lack of competent vets to compete with the team's high draft picks.

Are you under some illusion that 2 straight years of quitting is somehow not his fault? When he gets coach #2 fired and still fails to make the playoffs, will you stfu and get with the program?

It's like you're being purposefully obtuse. I expect them BOTH to go this off-season. I don't think the Bucs should keep either of them. Schiano's been terrible, and Freeman is nearly checked out on the team. That being said, Freeman loved Morris, and he wasn't one of the players who quit on him. You act like he's Deron Williams or something.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 04:18 PM

It's all speculation, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Mike Glennon produces more than 125 yards and 7 points at home against the Saints. Crazy, I know. Just looked it up, the defense set up that lone TD with an interception in NO territory:lmao

and you have the gall to put that loss on the Bucs D. What a shameful, shameful display by you today.

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 04:19 PM

I think the Raiders would prefer to evaluate Pryor than play Freeman tbh. We know what Freeman is. This is his 5th year in the NFL and 4th as a full time starter. He also started for the last 2/3 of his rookie season. By now he is what he is. Can he string some good games and make some good throws? Maybe. But right now he's got an awesome running back, a legit #1 receiver, a high end #2 receiver, and still isn't doing much. The Bucs aren't going to be making the playoffs in that division anyway. Whats the upside in playing Freeman? I'm with Brody on this one. Just get Glennon's feet wet since there won't be expectations. Let him build rapport with the offense. Better than throwing him in next year with high pressure during his first actual shot at playing time.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 04:20 PM

We're both talking about major hypotheticals here. You're saying if Glennon turns out to be better, the Bucs will have hope for next year. And I don't think he will and that starting him will almost certainly cost Schiano his job, especially if the players quit on him. I think that if Freeman plays like he did last year, the Bucs will be competitive for a playoff spot. You don't think so.

To me, I think the franchise needs to put it all in to making the playoffs this season and completely blowing up their braintrust if it fails. I would rather them get a top-tier quarterback in the draft than try to ride with Glennon if Freeman can't get it done. But there are indeed scenarios where having Glennon as the young quarterback make sense. But that's only if they could get an starting-caliber quarterback in free agency so they don't have to hand the reigns over to Glennon simply because he's the only one there. If there was any single thing that torpedoed the Bucs' roster, it's the lack of competent vets to compete with the team's high draft picks.

It's like you're being purposefully obtuse. I expect them BOTH to go this off-season. I don't think the Bucs should keep either of them. Schiano's been terrible, and Freeman is nearly checked out on the team. That being said, Freeman loved Morris, and he wasn't one of the players who quit on him. You act like he's Deron Williams or something.

Of course he said that...why would he purposefully cop to tanking? (even though it was obvious).

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 04:21 PM

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 04:25 PM

We're both talking about major hypotheticals here. You're saying if Glennon turns out to be better, the Bucs will have hope for next year. And I don't think he will and that starting him will almost certainly cost Schiano his job, especially if the players quit on him. I think that if Freeman plays like he did last year, the Bucs will be competitive for a playoff spot. You don't think so.

To me, I think the franchise needs to put it all in to making the playoffs this season and completely blowing up their braintrust if it fails. I would rather them get a top-tier quarterback in the draft than try to ride with Glennon if Freeman can't get it done. But there are indeed scenarios where having Glennon as the young quarterback make sense. But that's only if they could get an starting-caliber quarterback in free agency so they don't have to hand the reigns over to Glennon simply because he's the only one there. If there was any single thing that torpedoed the Bucs' roster, it's the lack of competent vets to compete with the team's high draft picks.

It's like you're being purposefully obtuse. I expect them BOTH to go this off-season. I don't think the Bucs should keep either of them. Schiano's been terrible, and Freeman is nearly checked out on the team. That being said, Freeman loved Morris, and he wasn't one of the players who quit on him. You act like he's Deron Williams or something.

Look, I've already explained to you why your rationale is stupid. First you blamed the defense, then you tried to make excuses for Freeman saying that his 7 pts (basically defensive points too) and 125 yds put them in a position to win. Then you went to the Tebow defense, then semantics.

If something looks like shit and smells like shit, it's probably shit. Got 4+ year of mostly shit on game film.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 04:28 PM

Of course he said that...why would he purposefully cop to tanking? (even though it was obvious).

I'm surprised you don't just think Freeman wasn't very good that year. He wasn't. He wasn't good when they won, and he wasn't much worse when they lost. If anything, he threw more interceptions in desperation.

Anyway, yes, the defense failed in the clutch. Does that mean that a better offensive performance would not have prevented that situation? Nope. But they don't have a right to point the finger at the offense when all they had to do was stop Brees once more. But really, what killed the Bucs was them not going for the first down on the 3rd and 7. They played for the field goal and missed it. It was a poor coaching decision that had just cost them the game (along with David's penalty) the week before. I know it's easy to say that Schiano should not have trusted Freeman to make that throw after the day he had, but Freeman had just converted two third and longs to get them to that point.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 04:30 PM

Freeman's teammates no longer believe in him. He wasn't voted captain after serving that position for a few years. The news of him missing a team meeting doesn't speak volumes either. They need to move on. He'd be a high end backup

We already talked about that earlier in the thread. Apparently, the players called a players-only meeting a week or so ago because a fair number of them voted for Freeman and some felt Schiano rigged the vote. He denied it, and so did Freeman. But it was a strange case nonetheless.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 04:34 PM

I'm surprised you don't just think Freeman wasn't very good that year. He wasn't. He wasn't good when they won, and he wasn't much worse when they lost. If anything, he threw more interceptions in desperation.

Anyway, yes, the defense failed in the clutch. Does that mean that a better offensive performance would not have prevented that situation? Nope. But they don't have a right to point the finger at the offense when all they had to do was stop Brees once more. But really, what killed the Bucs was them not going for the first down on the 3rd and 7. They played for the field goal and missed it. It was a poor coaching decision that had just cost them the game (along with David's penalty) the week before. I know it's easy to say that Schiano should not have trusted Freeman to make that throw after the day he had, but Freeman had just converted two third and longs to get them to that point.

As a friend, I'm telling you to stop this foolishness. Each post you make where it even insinuates blame on the defense is so intellectually dishonest it's almost criminal. 7 points (courtesy of the defense). Another 7 straight up scored by the defense. Freeman: 9/22, 125 yds, 1 td, 1 int. He was heinous and the definite culprit.

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 04:36 PM

What is the point of continuing to play Freeman? Plain and simple. If its a lost season, you might as well lose it giving the youngin some experience. Its why the Raiders started Pryor and not Flynn

Chinook

09-17-2013, 04:37 PM

Look, I've already explained to you why your rationale is stupid. First you blamed the defense, then you tried to make excuses for Freeman saying that his 7 pts (basically defensive points too) and 125 yds put them in a position to win. Then you went to the Tebow defense, then semantics.

If something looks like shit and smells like shit, it's probably shit. Got 4+ year of mostly shit on game film.

No. I said Freeman got the Bucs down the field on the last drive in a position to win. That's what the term means. You mean something completely different, and you are trying to twist the definition to mean that he was consistently good. He wasn't but he stepped up and the end of the game. The coach went conservative on third down, the kicker missed and the defense let Brees walk down the field. That doesn't absolve Freeman for his faults, but that does mean that blaming him solely for the loss (and especially calling him unclutch as you did when you started that whole line) is wrong.

Anyway, that had nothing to do with the post you quoted. You think Glennon's going to lead the Bucs to a .500 record or at least give them hope. I don't think so. I think they're best chance to do anything is to ride with Freeman this year and replace him in the draft. The fact that you seem to believe in Glennon and I don't does not make your point any more valid. We're talking bird in the hand versus two in the bush, but instead of there being two in the bush, there's an undisclosed number that's likely less than one.

KoolAid Mans Brother

09-17-2013, 04:37 PM

This 3 page argument can be summed up in 1 sentence:

Josh Freeman sucks donkey dick and as long as the is the QB of the Bucs, the team is fucked.

The end.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 04:40 PM

As a friend, I'm telling you to stop this foolishness. Each post you make where it even insinuates blame on the defense is so intellectually dishonest it's almost criminal. 7 points (courtesy of the defense). Another 7 straight up scored by the defense. Freeman: 9/22, 125 yds, 1 td, 1 int. He was heinous and the definite culprit.

Don't forget the lost fumble.

You sound like Spurs fans who think Leonard deserves no responsibility for the Spurs losing Game 6. They act like his missed free throw doesn't matter just because he had a good game besides that. That's not how it works. If you fail in the clutch, then you deserve blame. The defense played well, but they also allowed the Saints to march down the field easily and score the game-winner. The offense succeeded in the clutch while the defense, special teams and coaching failed in the clutch. That's just as true as the fact that the offense failed for the other 55 minutes of the game.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 04:42 PM

What is the point of continuing to play Freeman? Plain and simple. If its a lost season, you might as well lose it giving the youngin some experience. Its why the Raiders started Pryor and not Flynn

Freeman isn't Flynn, either. Plus, it's not a lost season for the Bucs yet. There's no reason why Tampa should feel they can't beat the Saints when they play them again. Atlanta has a loss, and Carolina has two already. Tampa just needs to get it together, whether that means bringing in Glennon or just fixing their penalites.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 04:43 PM

What is the point of continuing to play Freeman? Plain and simple. If its a lost season, you might as well lose it giving the youngin some experience. Its why the Raiders started Pryor and not Flynn

"bu-bu-because they can still go 10-4 despite playing in a tacked division and with other tough opponents left. Here, I'll be very generous with their 2013 prognostications:
@NE, L
AZ, W
PHI, W
@ATL, L
Car, W
@Sea, L
Miami, W
ATL, L DET (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=3776), W
@Car, W
Buf, W
SF, L
@STL, L
@NO, L

That's being extremely generous, especially considering there's a strong possibility they drop the Philly, Miami, Detroit, and one of the Carolina games.

So 7-9/8-8 is the best case scenario with Coach Killer...time to make a change.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 04:45 PM

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 04:48 PM

There's no reason the Jaguars can't make a run. Jacksonville just needs to get it together.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 04:53 PM

:lmaonow I know you have a Freeman fathead

I'm talking about the job the defense did. I thought you would appreciate that. You'd think that they way they played that if Schiano believes Glennon is even marginally better than Freeman, they can get a W next time, especially if the Saints are resting their starters.

Anyway, you keep thinking I'm a Freeman homer. I'm not. But I am significantly less high on Glennon than you are. I especially feel that sometimes, young quarterbacks don't just NEED to start as quickly as possible, and that the hope of a new quarterback is massively overrated. Ask the Jaguars if cutting Garrard to give Gabbert time really made them a better franchise. Or the Titans and Hasselbeck or even the Vikings and McNabb. Or the Browns and McCoy.

Tampa has to believe they can still make a run. I don't think they make the playoffs, but I wouldn't believe that if I were in that organization right now.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 04:55 PM

Well, considering Garrards back is fucked and he hasnt played an nfl game since being cut, id say that was the right move.

Next.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 04:58 PM

This is the NFC we're talking about...tje Saints aint sitting shit in week 17.

Chinook

09-17-2013, 05:07 PM

This is the NFC we're talking about...tje Saints aint sitting shit in week 17.

The Falcons did last year, and the Bucs won that game.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 05:10 PM

The Falcons did last year, and the Bucs won that game.

So that means its going to happen this year, even though the NFC is stronger top to TB

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 05:20 PM

Chinook, you yourself said you don't think Freeman is the future. If he does miraculously get them into the playoffs, then that just means they'll keep him, which would hold the team back. It's a lose-lose. Better off getting the kid's feet wet. Not like the fucking Bucs are going to contend with the Niners/Seahawks anyway

Chinook

09-17-2013, 05:30 PM

So that means its going to happen this year, even though the NFC is stronger top to TB

It means it can. The Saints sweep Atlanta, and they may not have anything to play for. In any event, we can chalk up the NO game as a loss as much as we want, but the Bucs shouldn't have that mentality, especially about a division rival.

Chinook, you yourself said you don't think Freeman is the future. If he does miraculously get them into the playoffs, then that just means they'll keep him, which would hold the team back. It's a lose-lose. Better off getting the kid's feet wet. Not like the fucking Bucs are going to contend with the Niners/Seahawks anyway

To me, that's a poor mentality. If the team believes there's a possibility for Freeman to lead them to the playoffs, they should take it. It doesn't make sense to think that they "have" to stick with them if he has a strong finish to the year. But even if they don't like him, they can let him walk, or franchise him and either trade him or see if he can repeat it. As I said, the Bucs don't have years to waste anymore. They're in win-now mode due to their free agents.

Although none of us see Freeman on the Bucs next season, whether or not Schiano's with him.

spurraider21

09-17-2013, 05:46 PM

Whatever. Its a dead year with Freeman at the helm.

RGMCSE

09-17-2013, 06:08 PM

last time i mentioned Tebow to the Jags, a jags fan on this forum (i can't recall if it was you, but i don't think it was) went off on me. so i've tried my hardest to hold that thought back :lol

Gabbert/Henne remind me Jamarcus Russell. hold the ball way too long, take too many sacks. even when actually decisive enough to pull the trigger, its woefully inaccurate. these guys never developed the anticipation needed in the pro game. they wait for the receiver to make his break, take a couple of steps until the separation is crystal clear. they'll get sacked/pressured before thats able to happen. and on top of it they get happy feet

You may be talking about me. Honestly my intent was not to blast you for suggesting the tebow thing. It's just that I'm worn thin of people wanting the Jags to give Teblow another chance because it makes too much sense. Around here it's typically the trolls and so far you seem like it was an honest question of "why not". Either way the Jags do not need to fool around with anymore wanna be QB's. They've had enough. As a fan, I'm fully aware of how shitty my team is and I simply am hoping for improvement from other areas of my team and look forward to the future QB.

Bill_Brasky

09-17-2013, 08:22 PM

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 08:28 PM

dude, it's like you're actually offended that someone would have the audacity to disagree with you and say that freeman isn't completely terrible. chill.

I'm just confused what some people are watching. I didn't realize Coach Killer still had supporters on here.

Bill_Brasky

09-17-2013, 08:33 PM

I'm just confused what some people are watching. I didn't realize Coach Killer still had supporters on here.

why is glennon third string tbh? i hear he's "schianos guy" who he drafted. yet he can't get ahead of dan orlovsly.

so is coach retarded or is glennon not that good? gotta be one or the other imo.

Bill_Brasky

09-17-2013, 08:38 PM

careful how you answer that one, cus there's a third option where the bucs are simply a terrible franchise with terrible ownership that makes terrible decisions in general.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 08:53 PM

why is glennon third string tbh? i hear he's "schianos guy" who he drafted. yet he can't get ahead of dan orlovsly.

so is coach retarded or is glennon not that good? gotta be one or the other imo.
Flacco was 3rd string in 2008 before the season. That's really not surprising at all when you consider that teams who dont immediately start their rookie qb will often have a vet in between so as not to stir up controversy.
Broncos did the same shit with the Orton, Quinn, Tebow situation. Yrs, Tebpw sucks, but everyone and their mother knew Quinn was getting no action. There are other examples as well, but i really dont care to look them up right now but i already gave you 2 off the top of my head.

You said Freeman would do better on another team? So if the defense is holding the opposition to 32 points in 2 games and he has a plethora of weapons at his disposal already, what situation would better fit his growing needs and consistent rookie mistakes?

Careful how you answer this one.

Pelicans78

09-17-2013, 08:53 PM

freeman would be decent on a good team. not his fault the bucs are a dumpster fire that hired a retard from rutgers.

He's part of the problem.

Bill_Brasky

09-17-2013, 09:01 PM

maybe a situation where his head coach isn't such a shithead that he would rig a team vote out of spite :lol

really though i don't care. the bucs are a shit team no matter whos at the helm. Freeman has been the starter for like 3 seasons and is already zeroing in on franchise passing records. their best player in franchise history is fucking ronde barber. just a shit show all around.

Chief Brody

09-17-2013, 09:08 PM

Setting franchise passing records when your competition is Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnsons abbreviated TB careers isn't that exciting. I ultimately dont care either, but this team has a ton of offensive talent and I'd like to see a smarter qb in there.

TrainOfThought5

09-17-2013, 09:51 PM

...... This Romo/Garrett situation is getting tiresome.

Chinook

09-25-2013, 08:13 AM

Well, it's done now. We'll see what happens.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9720203/tampa-bay-buccaneers-bench-josh-freeman-mike-glennon

TrainOfThought5

09-25-2013, 08:48 AM

This Romo/Garrett situation might be ok...

Spur|n|Austin

09-25-2013, 09:24 AM

Looks like Freeman is getting replaced by the rookie, Mike Gleenon. Freeman's boasting a QB rating of 59.3 so no surprise here.

EDIT -

Well, it's done now. We'll see what happens.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9720203/tampa-bay-buccaneers-bench-josh-freeman-mike-glennon

Chinook beat me to the news.

Bill_Brasky

09-25-2013, 10:04 AM

lol bucs

spurraider21

09-25-2013, 10:20 AM

:lol

benefactor

09-25-2013, 11:47 AM

I wish Houston would do the same with Case Keenum.

Holden_Caulfield

09-25-2013, 11:48 AM

I wish Houston would do the same with Case Keenum.
they should trade for josh freeman :lol

spurraider21

09-25-2013, 11:52 AM

Freeman would be an elite backup anywhere.. except Tampa :lol

Pelicans78

09-25-2013, 12:57 PM

Freeman isn't Flynn, either. Plus, it's not a lost season for the Bucs yet. There's no reason why Tampa should feel they can't beat the Saints when they play them again. Atlanta has a loss, and Carolina has two already. Tampa just needs to get it together, whether that means bringing in Glennon or just fixing their penalites.

Saints will blast them in the Dome whether its Freeman or Glennon starting.

But Freeman isn't totally the problem. But he's a big part of it. Still, they make alot of stupid penalties and it kills them.

Pelicans78

09-25-2013, 01:02 PM

Saints will blast them in the Dome whether its Freeman or Glennon starting.

But Freeman isn't totally the problem. But he's a big part of it. Still, they make alot of stupid penalties and it kills them.

Nevermind the Saints play them in week 17.

boobie4three

09-25-2013, 04:26 PM

Source: Josh Freeman seeking trade

UPDATED SEP 25, 2013 4:38 PM ET

Josh Freeman is seeking a trade, a source close to the situation told FOXSports.com on Wednesday, just hours after the Tampa Bay Buccaneers quarterback was demoted to the backup role behind Mike Glennon.
No official communication has been made to or from Freeman, the source said, but the request to engage in talks is expected to come soon.

Specifics on other teams and their interest level were not clear, but the fifth-year veteran would likely be a good fit with a couple of teams in need of help at the position, including the Oakland Raiders and Minnesota Vikings.

Freeman was a Pro Bowler in 2010, when he played under Greg Olson, the now-Raiders offensive coordinator, in Tampa Bay from 2009-11. Freeman had his best seasons with Olson and would likely be a seamless fit in that offense.

The Vikings have quarterback issues of their own. Former first-round pick Christian Ponder has been a disappointment since being selected in 2011. Freeman would be an upgrade. The Vikings, however, currently don’t have the cap space to acquire him, so he would likely not be the only piece in the trade.

It’s been a rough season for Freeman. He was dissed by a quarterback legend. His relationship with head coach Greg Schiano reportedly splintered in current months. He reportedly missed a team photo earlier this month. And he was also stripped of his duties as team captain before the season. Trade rumors had already been swirling around Freeman, and Wednesday’s decision by Buccaneers brass was the final straw, the source said.

The Buccaneers made a long-term decision by making Glennon the starting quarterback in Week 4’s game against the Arizona Cardinals. Glennon, who was selected in the third round of April’s draft, will have a bye week to evaluate his preparation and play heading into a Week 6 matchup against the Eagles.

The trade deadline is Oct. 29.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Josh-Freeman-Tampa-Bay-Buccaneers-actively-seeking-trade-092513