Popovich and Talent Evaluation

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I wanted to discuss this considering how this offseason has become shit on Popovich time. It would seem that he wasn't a first ballot HoF the way people carry on.

Instead I wanted to talk about what I think is his greatest attribute in talent evaluation and development. This is all inclusive considering front office, coaching and players themselves. While Buford deserves a lot of the credit the list of names that Popovich has brought in and have come out remarkable basketball people is simply breathtaking. Names like Manu Ginobil, Tony Parker, Kawhi Leonard, Bruce Bowen, and Stephen Jackson. You have guys like Jaren Jackson, Danny Green, Antonio Daniels and Avery Johnson who saw their game elevated under Popovich's tutelage. You have coaches with direct links like Jacque Vaughn, Mike Brown, Mike Budenholzer, and Brett Brown as well as guys he has influenced in a lesser way like Doc Rivers and Monty Williams. From the front office ranks you have Buford, Presti, Ferry and Demps.

I can see an argument that Larry Brown rivals in this comparison but other than that I just do not see anyone of the modern era that even comes close. Phil Jackson and Don Nelson weren't better. Pat Riley has been good but not that good. Is there someone that is missing because I contend that in terms of finding and developing talent, no one has been better than Greg Popovich in the modern era.

Enjoy it while you can because like say a Dallas Cowboys fan can attest, you don't know what you have until it's gone.

[lefty]

ok

[MultiTroll]

I contend that in terms of finding and developing talent, no one has been better than Greg Popovich in the modern era.
Are you claiming Popovich "found" Ginobili, Parker, Leonard, Bowen and Steven Jackson?

Or is it other Spurs scouts and FO found them and then once on the Spurs roster Pop coached them?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

ok

I encourage critical thinking. For example how will this bear out for the future of the organization. Pop has brought in a few new coaching and FO guys like Marks, Boylen, and Teielep. The last one is interesting because he was an unconventional ESPN analyst and is now a head scout. Marks is a new coaching prospect.

Will Green, CoJo, Nando, Leonard, Baynes, Mills continue to get better?

Rather than banal indifference perhaps you could try and use the brain a bit.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Are you claiming Popovich "found" Ginobili, Parker, Leonard, Bowen and Steven Jackson?

Or is it other Spurs scouts and FO found them and then once on the Spurs roster Pop coached them?

I don't know specifically but are you contending that he was not instrumental?

[MultiTroll]

I don't know specifically but are you contending that he was not instrumental?
I believe it was Presti who found either Parker or GNob. The board had discussions on it. The rest i believe he coached after they arrived.
We've all heard the story ad nauseum how military stricto Pop yelled at teenage Parker and shaped him up. Excellent, and no doubt good for Parker at the time. Too bad he didn't keep it up when Parker went into his foray of hanging out with rap punks (eyeball at one of the s-stains nightclub parties) and playing like a rap punk on the court for important portions of 2008-12. Also, the in your face yelling, while obviously good for young party boi Parker, does not seem to have worked with others. Popped silly selfish *doghouse* with Splitter etc.
And his opposite doghouse of leaving Turnobili in 2013 and forcing Parker to stay in for an unmedicated Ron Ape Artest assault along with abandoning Tall Balls in favor of small balls in the 2006 playoffs is unforgiveable.

A huge momentum swing was deciding to resign-extend Oberto and trade Louwie Scolas rights for Greek Never Came. I think Kori Ellis still had some employ with the Spurs, either way had some posts that inferred it was NOT Popped idea, that Popped was fine with Scola. Huge huge derailment of potential Spurs dynasty. Nonetheless, the subsequent gay love affair with Finley and Bonner is was just gagging.

[lefty]

I encourage critical thinking. For example how will this bear out for the future of the organization. Pop has brought in a few new coaching and FO guys like Marks, Boylen, and Teielep. The last one is interesting because he was an unconventional ESPN analyst and is now a head scout. Marks is a new coaching prospect.

Will Green, CoJo, Nando, Leonard, Baynes, Mills continue to get better?

Rather than banal indifference perhaps you could try and use the brain a bit.
ok

[Proxy]

I believe it was Presti who found either Parker or GNob. The board had discussions on it. The rest i believe he coached after they arrived.
We've all heard the story ad nauseum how military stricto Pop yelled at teenage Parker and shaped him up. Excellent, and no doubt good for Parker at the time. Too bad he didn't keep it up when Parker went into his foray of hanging out with rap punks (eyeball at one of the s-stains nightclub parties) and playing like a rap punk on the court for important portions of 2008-12. Also, the in your face yelling, while obviously good for young party boi Parker, does not seem to have worked with others. Popped silly selfish *doghouse* with Splitter etc.
And his opposite doghouse of leaving Turnobili in 2013 and forcing Parker to stay in for an unmedicated Ron Ape Artest assault along with abandoning Tall Balls in favor of small balls in the 2006 playoffs is unforgiveable.

A huge momentum swing was deciding to resign-extend Oberto and trade Louwie Scolas rights for Greek Never Came. I think Kori Ellis still had some employ with the Spurs, either way had some posts that inferred it was NOT Popped idea, that Popped was fine with Scola. Huge huge derailment of potential Spurs dynasty. Nonetheless, the subsequent gay love affair with Finley and Bonner is was just gagging.

If you were to improve upon the coaching position/situation during the Duncan era, how would you have done it?

[lefty]

By firing Pop and promoting Bud

[spurs10]

I wanted to discuss this considering how this offseason has become shit on Popovich time. It would seem that he wasn't a first ballot HoF the way people carry on.

Instead I wanted to talk about what I think is his greatest attribute in talent evaluation and development. This is all inclusive considering front office, coaching and players themselves. While Buford deserves a lot of the credit the list of names that Popovich has brought in and have come out remarkable basketball people is simply breathtaking. Names like Manu Ginobil, Tony Parker, Kawhi Leonard, Bruce Bowen, and Stephen Jackson. You have guys like Jaren Jackson, Danny Green, Antonio Daniels and Avery Johnson who saw their game elevated under Popovich's tutelage. You have coaches with direct links like Jacque Vaughn, Mike Brown, Mike Budenholzer, and Brett Brown as well as guys he has influenced in a lesser way like Doc Rivers and Monty Williams. From the front office ranks you have Buford, Presti, Ferry and Demps.

I can see an argument that Larry Brown rivals in this comparison but other than that I just do not see anyone of the modern era that even comes close. Phil Jackson and Don Nelson weren't better. Pat Riley has been good but not that good. Is there someone that is missing because I contend that in terms of finding and developing talent, no one has been better than Greg Popovich in the modern era.

Enjoy it while you can because like say a Dallas Cowboys fan can attest, you don't know what you have until it's gone.:toast Agreed!

[Brunodf]

Instead I wanted to talk about what I think is his greatest attribute in talent evaluation and development.
1- Scouts

2- The only players Pop ever developed were/are Tony and Kawhi.


By firing Pop and promoting Bud

This

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Good post, FuzzyLumpkins, but wrong timing. At this point of the offseason the 2 or 3 decent posts in the thread will be drowned in troll's verbal diarrhea. Still expect the anti-Manu guy to turn up and turn this into a Manu-is-finished thread.

P.S. Totally agree with your points, Pop's greatest ability is to evaluate talent and polish it. He'd be awesome in the FO if he's bothered to do it after Duncan retires.

[mudyez]

I believe it was Presti who found either Parker or GNob.

Again, the true story is: Pop didn't like Parker but R.C. was sold on him. So R.C. told Presti to make a best of Parker video. When Pop watched it, he was ok with drafting Parker.

All of a sudden the whole world thinks Presti was the genius. :lmao

It's like praising the paper boy for the accurate weather forcast.

As for the OP: I think Pop is good but like the above story tells you, it's a team thing between RC, Pop and some scouts just as it should be.

[ginobilized]

Pop hired Presti, right?

[Chinook]

I believe Pop said that he handles free agency while Buford handles the draft. So distribute the credit and blame accordingly.

[weeks]

By firing Pop and promoting Bud
Your face when bud gets timmy killed in a drunken driving accident

http://i435.photobucket.com/albums/qq79/bnonymoushaha/1280393350660_zps565f74c9.gif

[FuzzyLumpkins]

1- Scouts

2- The only players Pop ever developed were/are Tony and Kawhi.



This

This is just ignorance as to managing an organization is done. Yes, Popovich delegates and he also has the grace to accept none of the credit if he could. At the same time where do you think the buck stops? The whole organization deserves credit but Popovich deserves more credit than anyone else. This is underscored by the turnover in terms of the roster and front office and the consistent success nonetheless.

Sorry but Manu's game's improvement from his rookie season by the time 2005 rolled around was stellar. From Jaren Jackson to Gary Neal you have guys that showed significant improvement that were not superstars. The Spurs player development program is innovative and lauded by the league. As is their training and conditioning, scouting, and overall decision making.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Good post, FuzzyLumpkins, but wrong timing. At this point of the offseason the 2 or 3 decent posts in the thread will be drowned in troll's verbal diarrhea. Still expect the anti-Manu guy to turn up and turn this into a Manu-is-finished thread.

P.S. Totally agree with your points, Pop's greatest ability is to evaluate talent and polish it. He'd be awesome in the FO if he's bothered to do it after Duncan retires.

I get that but unless folks try and push back against the shit storm then they get to rule the roost. Season is starting back up soon and it's time to push back.

[Axegrinder]

I get that but unless folks try and push back against the shit storm then they get to rule the roost. Season is starting back up soon and it's time to push back.War of the http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4818821297668854&w=261&h=188&c=7&rs=1&pid=1.7

[Brunodf]

Sorry but Manu's game's improvement from his rookie season by the time 2005 rolled around was stellar. From Jaren Jackson to Gary Neal you have guys that showed significant improvement that were not superstars. The Spurs player development program is innovative and lauded by the league. As is their training and conditioning, scouting, and overall decision making.

Pop didn't develop Manu, Manu was already 26 years, he just needed to adapt to the new rules/style of the NBA. Neal is a scrub and also was 25 when the Spurs got him, that's the opposite of development, the Spurs always tried to sign older players (who were ready to play).

Like i said, in 16 years : Tony, Kawhi and counting

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Pop didn't develop Manu, Manu was already 26 years, he just needed to adapt to the new rules/style of the NBA.

I got this far and saw no reason to continue reading your post. Think of how the third clause relates to the first and try and use some critical thinking.

[ChumpDumper]

I believe it was Presti who found either Parker or GNob. The board had discussions on it. The rest i believe he coached after they arrived.
We've all heard the story ad nauseum how military stricto Pop yelled at teenage Parker and shaped him up. Excellent, and no doubt good for Parker at the time. Too bad he didn't keep it up when Parker went into his foray of hanging out with rap punks (eyeball at one of the s-stains nightclub parties) and playing like a rap punk on the court for important portions of 2008-12. Also, the in your face yelling, while obviously good for young party boi Parker, does not seem to have worked with others. Popped silly selfish *doghouse* with Splitter etc.
And his opposite doghouse of leaving Turnobili in 2013 and forcing Parker to stay in for an unmedicated Ron Ape Artest assault along with abandoning Tall Balls in favor of small balls in the 2006 playoffs is unforgiveable.

A huge momentum swing was deciding to resign-extend Oberto and trade Louwie Scolas rights for Greek Never Came. I think Kori Ellis still had some employ with the Spurs, either way had some posts that inferred it was NOT Popped idea, that Popped was fine with Scola. Huge huge derailment of potential Spurs dynasty. Nonetheless, the subsequent gay love affair with Finley and Bonner is was just gagging.lol Flabbs

[mountainballer]

Pop didn't develop Manu, Manu was already 26 years, he just needed to adapt to the new rules/style of the NBA.

uh. and therefore you don't need coaching, right?

of course you need to still develop a player at 25 (btw. Manu was 25, not 26).
I would even claim, that's the point: what coach has the ability to improve a player, who is already in his mid 20ies. Pop does.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

uh. and therefore you don't need coaching, right?

of course you need to still develop a player at 25 (btw. Manu was 25, not 26).
I would even claim, that's the point: what coach has the ability to improve a player, who is already in his mid 20ies. Pop does.

Exactly, Pop is very underrated in this regard because he hasn't been able to work with a lot of high lottery talent for obvious reasons. When he gets someone like Tony or Kawhi he polishes them to gold. I'm pretty sure neither would have developed as much under another coach and team.

There are other, less fancy examples though , look at Gary Neal - a euroleague journeyman approaching 30 who was turned into a legit NBA player. Yea he's no LeBron but he's made the most of his potential under Pop. In fact more than he could have imagined a few years ago. A lot of players have had their best years in the NBA under Pop - Bruce, Speedy, Derek Anderson, Jaren Jackson, etc, and the only real talent that was let go - Scola, Dragic - were traded before spending a day on the roster.

[Bartleby]

2- The only players Pop ever developed were/are Tony and Kawhi.



George Hill?

[mountainballer]

George Hill?

yes.
and Antonio Daniels.
and Malik Rose.

[MultiTroll]

I got this far and saw no reason to continue reading your post. Think of how the third clause relates to the first and try and use some critical thinking.
Thanks for addressing Brunodf (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=41631)s point while providing numerous instances where Popped was and is "finding and developing talent, no one has been better than Greg Popovich in the modern era."

BTW is BG_Spurs_Fan (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=14541) one of your other profiles? :lol

[MultiTroll]

uh. and therefore you don't need coaching, right?

of course you need to still develop a player at 25 (btw. Manu was 25, not 26).
I would even claim, that's the point: what coach has the ability to improve a player, who is already in his mid 20ies. Pop does.
Please provide some specific info as to how Popped developed Manu and soo many others. During this years playoffs Poop was quoted as saying regarding Manu "I stopped trying to coach him a long time ago." Obviously Manu does not listen. Case in point where Pop did make a valid coaching suggestion (hey it happens) and yet Manutard ignored him was the 2006 choker. Popped said during the timeout "do NOT foul the shooter".

[mountainballer]

Please provide some specific info as to how Popped developed Manu and soo many others. During this years playoffs Poop was quoted as saying regarding Manu "I stopped trying to coach him a long time ago." Obviously Manu does not listen. Case in point where Pop did make a valid coaching suggestion (hey it happens) and yet Manutard ignored him was the 2006 choker. Popped said during the timeout "do NOT foul the shooter".

No.

[MultiTroll]

stalking again
Hi Rumpy

[MultiTroll]

Originally Posted by Fabbs (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6848824#post6848824) Please provide some specific info as to how Popped developed Manu and soo many others. During this years playoffs Poop was quoted as saying regarding Manu "I stopped trying to coach him a long time ago." Obviously Manu does not listen. Case in point where Pop did make a valid coaching suggestion (hey it happens) and yet Manutard ignored him was the 2006 choker. Popped said during the timeout "do NOT foul the shooter".



No.
Thank you. A solid PPopper contribution. :lol

[MultiTroll]

Pop deserves some development kudos for the Spurs practices where they scored points by defensive stops.
This was during the Spurs defensive years when we were also poised to go on a dynasty run. Great! Why not keep it up from summer of 2005 onward?
All shot to hell by his mismananagement.

[ChumpDumper]

The Agenda®

[Old School 44]

Instead I wanted to talk about what I think is his greatest attribute in talent evaluation and development.

Although these attributes are part of Pop, I think his best attribute is his management of people. For the most part, he's been a straight shooter with his players and staff and I think they appreciate that. Even those that have left the organization seem to have a healthy respect for the Spurs' Way, which is synonymous with Pop's Way.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Please provide some specific info as to how Popped developed Manu and soo many others. During this years playoffs Poop was quoted as saying regarding Manu "I stopped trying to coach him a long time ago." Obviously Manu does not listen. Case in point where Pop did make a valid coaching suggestion (hey it happens) and yet Manutard ignored him was the 2006 choker. Popped said during the timeout "do NOT foul the shooter".

Popovich runs the tightest ship in professional sports. You grandstanding on one of his quips aside, what 'specific' case can you make for any player being scouted, developed, and/or coached by Popovich or anyone else in the organization for that matter? You going to base it on one line zingers and out of context sideline soundbites?

For example, what have they worked on this offseason? Can you come up with anything?

[MultiTroll]

You grandstanding on one of his quips aside, what 'specific' case can you make for any player being scouted, developed, and/or coached by Popovich or anyone else in the organization for that matter?
It's your OP that claims the "breathtaking" cases for Pop. Now you're asking me to provide examples for you? :lmao
Which btw i already gave you one in Bowen and the practices that scored points for D stops rather then O baskets.
Soundbites. "Breathtaking" "Tightest ship"
"Believe" :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

The Agenda®The Popsuckers

[xmas1997]

We have your number, TGY.
Give it up and go back to your Mavs or Lakers forum where you belong!
:nope

[ChumpDumper]

The Popsuckers Old and tired term tbh.

[xmas1997]

Old and tired term tbh.

I was wondering if and when you would get tired enough to weigh in on this.
There are so many holes to find in their arguments that they even rival all the holes in Blankenshire.

[ChumpDumper]

They've just gone beyond the pale. They post about nothing else. They need therapy. God knows what what they would do if something bad happened to them in real life.

[DMC]

It's actually "Gregg", since you're going to spend all this time fellating him.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's actually "Gregg", since you're going to spend all this time fellating him.

It's interesting that you conflate supporting someone with some sort of homosexual act. It seems to be a central theme in your reasoning. I have always felt that obvious untruths such as the ones that make up most of everything you say speak more to the sayer than they do the sayee.

No, monkey, go ahead and give us a flippant dismissal or another homosexual image.

[xmas1997]

It's interesting that you conflate supporting someone with some sort of homosexual act. It seems to be a central theme in your reasoning. I have always felt that obvious untruths such as the ones that make up most of everything you say speak more to the sayer than they do the sayee.

No, monkey, go ahead and give us a flippant dismissal or another homosexual image.

:lmao

[DMC]

It's interesting that you conflate supporting someone with some sort of homosexual act. It seems to be a central theme in your reasoning. I have always felt that obvious untruths such as the ones that make up most of everything you say speak more to the sayer than they do the sayee.

No, monkey, go ahead and give us a flippant dismissal or another homosexual image.

I'm guessing everything has to be in blue letters for you to get the sarcasm.

[Skull-1]

Old and tired term tbh. Not as old and tired as your lame modus operandi.

[Skull-1]

I'm guessing everything has to be in blue letters for you to get the sarcasm.
Exactly. What a friggin -d i p w a d-.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm guessing everything has to be in blue letters for you to get the sarcasm.

What difference does that make? Constant homoerotic references are what they are even in a sarcastic tone. Derisive or ironic it doesn't matter.

[ChumpDumper]

Not as old and tired as your lame modus operandi.

Who are you?

[DMC]

What difference does that make? Constant homoerotic references are what they are even in a sarcastic tone. Derisive or ironic it doesn't matter.

What's wrong with homoeroticism?

[TheGreatYacht]

Just another Popsucking thread.

[xmas1997]

Just another Popsucking thread.


Then you should love that, since you said you were a self proclaimed Popsucker!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What's wrong with homoeroticism?

I never said there was. It's pretty obvious that you have an issue with it considering you use it as your go to when you have issues with someone. That's my point.

Your fixation and constant refrain is remarkable. I am just saying that perhaps some introspection is in order.

[DMC]

I never said there was. It's pretty obvious that you have an issue with it considering you use it as your go to when you have issues with someone. That's my point.

Your fixation and constant refrain is remarkable. I am just saying that perhaps some introspection is in order.

So now you're not only a pussy, but a homophobic one as well.

[Skull-1]

Who are you?
I'm Batman.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So now you're not only a pussy, but a homophobic one as well.

I guess, "I never said there was," is difficult to understand.

You asked a loaded question and I didn't affirm it. Try harder.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's your OP that claims the "breathtaking" cases for Pop. Now you're asking me to provide examples for you? :lmao
Which btw i already gave you one in Bowen and the practices that scored points for D stops rather then O baskets.
Soundbites. "Breathtaking" "Tightest ship"
"Believe" :lol

You never brought up anything regarding Bowen and practices until just now. How it applies to the discussion at hand? I have no idea. How about stories of DRob walking on his hands while your at it. If you are going to go sophist for the negative at least try to make applicable points.

I gave examples of why the Spurs organization is tight lipped. You don't even argue the point beyond petulant mocking. It's pretty much granted to be the case.

As for breathtaking, I will go back to my original point in the OP: what organization has done a better job bringing in talent for the front office, coaching staff as well as player personnel in basketball? In pro sports?

[pjjrfan]

He certainly helped develop Avery. He developed Malik Rose, Devin Brown, he helped improve Bruce Bowen, Beno Udrih, Tiago Splitter. The fact that he came to the conclusion that letting Manu be Manu is also a huge decision on his part in making the Spurs the powerhouse it has become in the last 15 years. He surrounded Tim with the kind of talent he needed to help him get those 4 rings.

[jag]

yes.
and Antonio Daniels.
and Malik Rose.

and Beno?

[TheGreatYacht]

He certainly helped develop Avery. He developed Malik Rose, Devin Brown, he helped improve Bruce Bowen, Beno Udrih, Tiago Splitter. The fact that he came to the conclusion that letting Manu be Manu is also a huge decision on his part in making the Spurs the powerhouse it has become in the last 15 years. He surrounded Tim with the kind of talent he needed to help him get those 4 rings.Too bad Pop when overboard with Manu during the NBA Finals and throughout the playoffs as a matter of fact. Manu has cost us championships as well so he's not so bright as people think he is.

[xmas1997]

The Popsuckers

Your mantra is old and tiresome.
Get a new writer!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Too bad Pop when overboard with Manu during the NBA Finals and throughout the playoffs as a matter of fact. Manu has cost us championships as well so he's not so bright as people think he is.

I think your problem is that they think he's brighter than you.