Why do most rank Olajuwon above Duncan in top 10 lists?

[Thebesteva]

Just curious tbh

[Clipper Nation]

NM, misread the thread title :lol

[lefty]

Hakeem shits on Jim



tbh

[StrengthAndHonor]

Most value prime than longevity. Duncan's prime was amazing but Olajuwon's was historic winning MVP, Finals MVP, DPOY and a championship all in one season.

[Thebesteva]

Hakeem shits on Jim



tbh

I think Hakeem was one of the best and most fluid big men of all time, I just think Timmy has a fair argument since he's won 4 and been Finals MVP more times.

[StrengthAndHonor]

That's probably the reason why Lebron is already ahead of Kobe in all time rankings as well. I love Kobe but the lack of regular season MVP awards really hurts him.

[StrengthAndHonor]

I think Hakeem was one of the best and most fluid big men of all time, I just think Timmy has a fair argument since he's won 4 and been Finals MVP more times.
True, but Duncan also had better help throughout his career.

[CitizenDwayne]

I doubt he will after Duncan's retirement. Considering the freakish resurgence he went through last season, I'd say that just about places him above Hakeem in every way.

[Michael Jordan.]

Duncan - better career

Dream - better player

[lefty]

I think Hakeem was one of the best and most fluid big men of all time, I just think Timmy has a fair argument since he's won 4 and been Finals MVP more times.
Enough with that ring argument TBH

Dont tell me Fisher was better than Stockton

[Buddy Mignon]

Kobe 5
Jim 4

[RsxPiimp]

Enough with that ring argument TBH

Dont tell me Fisher was better than Stockton

i hate arguments like this honestly, its stupid. you can't bring two players who are obviously not in the same class.

now if you tell someone fisher is better than steve kerr, despite kerr having more rings then ill buy it.

[Arnold Toht]

Replace 2010 Fisher with prime Steve Kerr, we may not have 5-4 right now.

[Thebesteva]

Enough with that ring argument TBH

Dont tell me Fisher was better than Stockton

The Horry, Fisher, Kerr argument is overrated. These were GREAT role players that did the sometimes small and at times crucial things that resulted in championships. But guys like Duncan, Dream, Magic, MJ were THE alphas on a team. It's so irritating when someone throws the Horry argument in the equation.

[AchillesHeel]

lol.

[AaronY]

Replace 2010 Fisher with prime Steve Kerr, we may not have 5-4 right now.
Huh

[JMarkJohns]

Duncan - better career

Dream - better player

This is close to a winning argument as there is. That said, while Duncan was the more offensively skilled player for first 7-8 seasons of each's careers, Hakeem's early years are pretty undervalued.

Titles aren't comparable since they are from different eras, but swap players on the other's respective team and I doubt Duncan wins more than Hakeem's two, but give Hakeem prime Ginobili, Parker and quality depth with the Spurs, I I start to think Spurs have 5 titles or more, as Robinson could carry the offense early, then as Hakeem's offense peaked, I don't see how the Spurs are stopped from 2002-2011.

[Clipper Nation]

The Horry, Fisher, Kerr argument is overrated. These were GREAT role players that did the sometimes small and at times crucial things that resulted in championships. But guys like Duncan, Dream, Magic, MJ were THE alphas on a team. It's so irritating when someone throws the Horry argument in the equation.
:cry

[Kidd K]

Trick question. Most people don't rank Hakeem Olajuwon above Tim Duncan.

[TDMVPDPOY]

olajuwon overrated hack, every fkn clown thinks his 2 prime years his been playin like that his whole career

[Rogue]

Tim has collected more silverwares but the Dream was the better player as an individual imho. Dream was simply dominant at the defensive end while also being the primary scorer of his team. Dream is a locked top 5 player of all time imho. The big fundamental in his prime was probably just as good as Dream in offense, but Dream's dominance in defense was the tie-breaker

[spurraider21]

I'll put 2003 Tim up against peak anybody tbh. I loved that team for a lot of reasons (heroics from Jax, the one game Kerr actually did something positive for the spurs, Speedy Claxton coming up big in the finals while TP's balls hadn't dropped yet, Robinson's final season) but realistically its the least talented roster to win an NBA title for a LONG time. Take Duncan off that team and they'd end up with a LOT of ping pong balls. But they dethroned the 3-peat Lakers and Duncan got the MVP-fMVP duo

[RsxPiimp]

the 3 peat lakers were tired, its not a huge achievement to beat a team that's been in the finals 3 straight years, anyone knows after a 3rd deep post season run, the defending champs are officially out of contention the next year mainy due to fatigue.

95 Olajuwon would destroy any Duncan you put in front of him.

[Sean Cagney]

the 3 peat lakers were tired, its not a huge achievement to beat a team that's been in the finals 3 straight years, anyone knows after a 3rd deep post season run, the defending champs are officially out of contention the next year mainy due to fatigue.

95 Olajuwon would destroy any Duncan you put in front of him.
I disagree, signed 03 Tim............ Faggot. Change your fave team faggot, your an LA fan, you too coward to put your teams name under your avi? 03 Tim one of the best title runs ever, period.
I'll put 2003 Tim up against peak anybody tbh. I loved that team for a lot of reasons (heroics from Jax, the one game Kerr actually did something positive for the spurs, Speedy Claxton coming up big in the finals while TP's balls hadn't dropped yet, Robinson's final season) but realistically its the least talented roster to win an NBA title for a LONG time. Take Duncan off that team and they'd end up with a LOT of ping pong balls. But they dethroned the 3-peat Lakers and Duncan got the MVP-fMVP duo
Yep I agree with you man, I mentioned that before I read your reply and talked to that bitch with his Spurs avi and his fave team under that when he is an LA fan. 03 Tim has one of the best runs over the era, period! 03 TIM was riduculous.

[HI-FI]

The Horry, Fisher, Kerr argument is overrated. These were GREAT role players that did the sometimes small and at times crucial things that resulted in championships. But guys like Duncan, Dream, Magic, MJ were THE alphas on a team. It's so irritating when someone throws the Horry argument in the equation.
actually a good point and even better you left Rapist off that list.

[HI-FI]

I'll put 2003 Tim up against peak anybody tbh. I loved that team for a lot of reasons (heroics from Jax, the one game Kerr actually did something positive for the spurs, Speedy Claxton coming up big in the finals while TP's balls hadn't dropped yet, Robinson's final season) but realistically its the least talented roster to win an NBA title for a LONG time. Take Duncan off that team and they'd end up with a LOT of ping pong balls. But they dethroned the 3-peat Lakers and Duncan got the MVP-fMVP duo
that season should've put him in Olajuwon territory, or at least close, but the overall body of work puts him past the Dream imho.

too bad Pop had to take him out when Duncan could've ended up in Top 5 territory.

:pop: "Fuck you, it's the system. My way or the highway."

[TDMVPDPOY]

i put any version of tim duncan against anyone, the difference between duncan and the other bigs of the league, he rarely jumps on pumpfakes

[TDMVPDPOY]

dont forget olajuwon had some solid role players who played above their weight, those championship years he had guys like otis thorpe, carl herrera and robert horry, 3 serviceable big man who did the dirty work, you add up the contribution and it all adds up alot....

[Rogue]

Dream got lucky with the 94 and 95' titles while Jordan was playing in MLB but leading a shitty franchise to the top of the league was enough an achievement by itself, not to say Dream is the all-time leader in blocks as well as the #9 place on all-time scoring list.

[spurraider21]

Dream got lucky with the 94 and 95' titles while Jordan was playing in MLB but leading a shitty franchise to the top of the league was enough an achievement by itself, not to say Dream is the all-time leader in blocks as well as the #9 place on all-time scoring list.

As if it was Jordan that was preventing Dream from winning every other year anyway. Those were the only 2 years Dream made the finals. You can't blame Jordan for his shortcomings in the western conference playoffs

[ambchang]

Because 2>4.

Rings count unless a spurs player comes out on top.

[Leetonidas]

Olajuwon was a beast, no shame there. Though personally due to longevity and career achievements I put Duncan ahead of him but it's close.

[jdiggy0424]

Dream was also a pre-madonna in his early years too. Not only that but after he lost to the Celtics, during the next couple of years his level of production was in "cruise control". Sure he put up 22-24 pts and 10-12 rebs during that 7 yr gap (not to mention at least 2 block and 2 steals), but did that translate to wins? No.

[Michael Jordan.]

As if it was Jordan that was preventing Dream from winning every other year anyway. Those were the only 2 years Dream made the finals. You can't blame Jordan for his shortcomings in the western conference playoffs

:lol Come on playa. Dream also made the finals in 86.

[Leetonidas]

Only cus Magic wanted no part of Larry that year :downspin:

[Leetonidas]

Real talk, how does a team with two top 5 players of all time not make the Finals every single year

[Michael Jordan.]

Real talk, how does a team with two top 5 players of all time not make the Finals every single year

Huh? Lakers?

[spurraider21]

:lol Come on playa. Dream also made the finals in 86.

yeah. forgot that one. my main point was that the Jordan excuse is bullshit for Dream. he never went up against him in the playoffs

[AchillesHeel]

Duncan - 4
Hakeem - 2
Duncan - 3 FMVPs
Hakeem - 2 FMVPs
Duncan - 4 - 5 in the Finals
Hakeem - 2 - 3 in the Finals

Hakeem - 8 first round losses, missed playoffs 3x
Duncan - 3 first round losses, never missed playoffs

[Michael Jordan.]

Duncan - 4
Hakeem - 2
Duncan - 3 FMVPs
Hakeem - 2 FMVPs
Duncan - 4 - 5 in the Finals
Hakeem - 2 - 3 in the Finals

Hakeem - 8 first round losses, missed playoffs 3x
Duncan - 3 first round losses, never missed playoffs
Who had the better teams? Coach? System?

[AchillesHeel]

Duncan's 500 rebounds short of passing Hakeem all-time, shouldn't be a problem next season

Duncan is also 3200 points away from catching Hakeem in points, if he plays 2 more seasons without injuries and averages 17 ppg, he will pass Hakeem in that area as well.

The only area Hakeem is untouchable in is in blocks, but Duncan had the better career and while Duncan led his team to the Finals and took the reigning champ to 7 games, Hakeem at the same age averaged 10 and 6 while losing 13 out of his last 15 games that season.

Prime for prime, Hakeem's better, but Duncan's career is far surperior and he'll surpass Hakeem at least in rebounds, if not in points as well.

[AchillesHeel]

Who had the better teams? Coach? System?

How do you justify losing 8 times in the first round and missing the playoffs 3 times?(I only counted the Houston Days, up to Hakeem being 37).

Hakeem played in Houston, a big market while Timmy has played his whole career in a small market in San Antonio. Duncan's best teammate was a washed up David Robinson with Parker being a close second. Hakeem had Barkley(from early 30s to late 30s),Drexler(he was decent with Houston),Pippen(only 33 when he got there),Horry(prime),Kenny Smith(he put up 17.8 and 7.1 one season), he even had a young Steve Francis and Mobley in 2000, but he was washed up by then (only 36-37 years old, Duncan at 36-37 would have done something with that roster).

Both had multiple HOF teammates and role players, both led their teams to titles, but Duncan beats Hakeem in longetivity and career accomplishments with Hakeem being the better scorer and shot-blocker. Only pussies and assholes use injuries as an excuse, tbh. Fact is, my friend, Hakeem only won 2 and despite having some other stacked rosters, he either got injured or he just failed to make noise in the playoffs.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

Who had the better teams? Coach? System?

Oh brother. The championship Spurs teams were not that stacked, I mean sure.. they had a legendary coach, and the system benefited the team, but the system revolved around Tim Duncan, like the system in Houston revolved around Dream, but only one of those players could consistently lead their team to 50 win seasons, and 14 straight playoff births.

The role players on the Rockets those two years, were not much worse than the Spurs role players.

[ambchang]

These players, though they play similar positions are about as dominant as they come, were VERY different to compare side-by-side.

Hakeem, in a game of one on one, will smoke Duncan time and again. Hakeem was more agile, more athletic, had better moves. But the one thing Duncan has though, is how to maximize his skills through the system, teammates and positioning. Not that Hakeem was bad in any of those, Duncan was simply better. This is apparent by the length of the considered "primes" of either players. Hakeem was putting up monster stats for nearly a decade before his titles, but people do not consider them prime because his team was not successful, but they were most definitely his prime, but the Rockets were not successful because of:
a) The league suspended the entire Rockets team so that the Lakers can repeat and Magic can keep having his parties
b) Hakeem simply wasn't that easy to build around. He required quick and volume 3 point shooting around him because he took up such a huge part of the low post.

The difference in peaks of the respective players were also exaggerated due to pace and era.

Let's say Hakeem's absolute peak were those two championship seasons, and Duncan's were 99 to 04.

Looking at Duncan, in:
1999, he had a 1,084 points and 121 assists. In other words, Duncan was directly responsible for 28.6% of the Spurs 4,640 points for that season. He also had 26% of the rebounds, 36% of the blks and 10.7% of the steals. Keep in mind that he was playing with a end of prime Robinson at this stage of his career.
2000 - 27.7% of the offense, 26% rebounds, 30% of blks, 10.7% of steals.
2001 - 29.3%, 27.6%, 33.3%, 12.3%
2002 - 34.1%, 30%,37.8%, 9.8%
2003 - 32%, 29.8%, 44.8%, 8.7%
2004 - 26.2%, 23.2%, 34.4%, 9.4% (Duncan missed 13 games this year, the numbers would have been 31%,28%,41%,11% if Duncan played in the full 82)

Now let's compare this to Hakeem's two years:
1994 - 33.3%, 27%,61% (!!!), 18%
1995- 29.6%, 23.3%, 47%, 18% (Hakeem missed 12 games this year, would have been 34.7,27.3,55.1,21.6 if he played a full 82).

Just looking at the numbers, Duncan and Hakeem were responsible for almost the same % of offense (Duncan came up slightly on top), and Duncan was actually responsible for slightly more rebounds (I was surprised by this). While Hakeem was representative of MUCH more of the blocks, it is more because of the teammates rather than any other reason (noticed Duncan's numbers coinciding with Robinson's decline, by 2003, his % in blocks pretty much matches those of Hakeem in 95).

So what do these numbers tell us? First, they play in totally different pace, in which the Spurs grind it down offense in the late 90s/early 00s undoubtedly negatively affected Duncan's total numbers. Second, the two are pretty much identical in terms of their offensive responsibilities, especially after the decline of Robinson. Third, and as listed earlier, Hakeem had a much longer prime than people give him credit for, he simply couldn't capitalize because he didn't have the right team around him. Sure the late 80s Rockets teams were horrible, but Duncan's early 00s teams, when you really look at them, weren't that great, and yet Duncan made them contenders year after year, winning a title in the process.

[TDMVPDPOY]

hakeem the most overrated clown to ever play the game

those 2 championship years, they make it look like he played like that his whole career, dream shaking everyone from start to finish = bullshit

[spurraider21]

Oh brother. The championship Spurs teams were not that stacked, I mean sure.. they had a legendary coach, and the system benefited the team, but the system revolved around Tim Duncan, like the system in Houston revolved around Dream, but only one of those players could consistently lead their team to 50 win seasons, and 14 straight playoff births.

The role players on the Rockets those two years, were not much worse than the Spurs role players.

The Spurs "system" in 03 was just 4-down. It was Duncan carrying a team that had no business being in the finals. Stephen Jackson wasn't much at that point. Parkers balls shriveled in the Finals. Manu didn't have a big role. Robinson was literally on his last legs. Malik Rose, Kevin Willis, Bruce Bowen, etc.

[spurraider21]

Who had the better teams? Coach? System?
Take a look at the roster/stats of the '03 Spurs

[Michael Jordan.]

How do you justify losing 8 times in the first round and missing the playoffs 3 times?(I only counted the Houston Days, up to Hakeem being 37).

Hakeem played in Houston, a big market while Timmy has played his whole career in a small market in San Antonio. Duncan's best teammate was a washed up David Robinson with Parker being a close second. Hakeem had Barkley(from early 30s to late 30s),Drexler(he was decent with Houston),Pippen(only 33 when he got there),Horry(prime),Kenny Smith(he put up 17.8 and 7.1 one season), he even had a young Steve Francis and Mobley in 2000, but he was washed up by then (only 36-37 years old, Duncan at 36-37 would have done something with that roster).

Both had multiple HOF teammates and role players, both led their teams to titles, but Duncan beats Hakeem in longetivity and career accomplishments with Hakeem being the better scorer and shot-blocker. Only pussies and assholes use injuries as an excuse, tbh. Fact is, my friend, Hakeem only won 2 and despite having some other stacked rosters, he either got injured or he just failed to make noise in the playoffs.
Wait, hold on. Are you saying Prime Parker and Prime Ginobli, Prime Bowen, were all worse than a washed up Robinson?

Barkley was in rapid Decline.

Drexler was with Houston for about 2 seasons, and on the downside of Hakeem's prime. Pippen, was a cancer and destroyed that team. Hakeem had Sampson for about 2 seasons before he broke down?

[Michael Jordan.]

Take a look at the roster/stats of the '03 Spurs
So that team was worse than Hakeem's worst teams?

[spurraider21]

So that team was worse than Hakeem's worst teams?
Was worse than any Hakeem team that made the finals, that's for sure. And it's probably in the same territory as Hakeem's worst teams overall, yes

[Michael Jordan.]

Was worse than any Hakeem team that made the finals, that's for sure. And it's probably in the same territory as Hakeem's worst teams overall, yes
:lol False. That 02-03 Spurs team had a better defensive rating, and allowed less points a game than the 93-94 Rockets. They were simply better on defense, and Hakeem more than doubled the second option in scoring for the season and the playoffs.

[ambchang]

:lol False. That 02-03 Spurs team had a better defensive rating, and allowed less points a game than the 93-94 Rockets. They were simply better on defense, and Hakeem more than doubled the second option in scoring for the season and the playoffs.

Different era. The Spurs that year was certainly one of the best defensive teams in the history of the game, but they have to be viewed relative to the same era.

For example, Duncan had a Drtg of 94 that year, while Hakeem had 95 and 96 for the two championship years. That was not because Duncan was a better defensive player, but because they played in different eras.

Finally, Duncan was the system that year, Hakeem had a lot of 3-pt shooters.

[Michael Jordan.]

Different era. The Spurs that year was certainly one of the best defensive teams in the history of the game, but they have to be viewed relative to the same era.

For example, Duncan had a Drtg of 94 that year, while Hakeem had 95 and 96 for the two championship years. That was not because Duncan was a better defensive player, but because they played in different eras.

Finally, Duncan was the system that year, Hakeem had a lot of 3-pt shooters.
Whose stats went down considerably in the playoffs.

[PlayNando]

Just curious tbh
Because most Americans are stupid.

[Leetonidas]

Huh? Lakers?

Yeah just a continuing train of thought from my previous post. I mean they had Magic and Kareem, how did they miss the 86 Finals? Was there a key injury?

[Leetonidas]

Different era. The Spurs that year was certainly one of the best defensive teams in the history of the game, but they have to be viewed relative to the same era.

For example, Duncan had a Drtg of 94 that year, while Hakeem had 95 and 96 for the two championship years. That was not because Duncan was a better defensive player, but because they played in different eras.

Finally, Duncan was the system that year, Hakeem had a lot of 3-pt shooters.

I don't know the exact stats off the top of my head but imo the 2004 Spurs were the best defensive team of the last decade that we had, don't they hold the all-time record for lowest OPPG in a season?

[Leetonidas]

Wait, hold on. Are you saying Prime Parker and Prime Ginobli, Prime Bowen, were all worse than a washed up Robinson?

Barkley was in rapid Decline.

Drexler was with Houston for about 2 seasons, and on the downside of Hakeem's prime. Pippen, was a cancer and destroyed that team. Hakeem had Sampson for about 2 seasons before he broke down?

tbh Robinson in 1999 was still a defensive monster and one of the main reasons the Spurs dominated defensively in the 99 playoffs. He was still a defensive anchor in 2003 even when he was old as fuck and missing games because of his back. I'd take 2003 Robinson in the middle over anyone on SA not named Tim Duncan right now imo

[spurraider21]

tbh Robinson in 1999 was still a defensive monster and one of the main reasons the Spurs dominated defensively in the 99 playoffs. He was still a defensive anchor in 2003 even when he was old as fuck and missing games because of his back. I'd take 2003 Robinson in the middle over anyone on SA not named Tim Duncan right now imo

2012-2013 TP > 2003 Robinson dude... 05-11 Manu > 03 robinson as well

[Leetonidas]

If we're talking about only 2003 David Robinson then I definitely agree with you. I'm just saying he was still a force on defense even when he was old and crippled

[spurraider21]

If we're talking about only 2003 David Robinson then I definitely agree with you. I'm just saying he was still a force on defense even when he was old and crippled

yeah, I was referencing the 2003 championship team specifically

[Prime Time]

Because 2>4.

Rings count unless a spurs player comes out on top.
/thread

[vander]

cause that baseline fade-away was just gorgeous

as much as I hated Malone and Olajuwon, those fade-aways were a large part why I grew to love basketball so much

[ambchang]

Whose stats went down considerably in the playoffs.

Not sure where that is coming from.

In 1994:
Maxwell: 13.6ppg, 1.6 3PM on 29.8% in regular season vs. 13.8 ppg, 2 3PM on 32.6% in the playoffs
Smith: 11.5, 1.1 3PM on 40.5% vs. 10.8, 1.5 on 44.7%
Horry: 9.9, 0.5 on 32.4% vs. 11.7, 1.5 on 38.2%
Elie: 9.3, 0.8 on 33.5% vs. 5.8, 0.4 on 31.3%
Cassell: 6.7, 0.4 on 29.5% vs. 9.4, 0.8 on 37.8%

In 1995:
Drexler: 21.4, 1.7 on 35.7% vs 20.5, 1.4 on 30.3%
Smith: 10.4, 1.8 on 42.9% 10.8, 2.1 on 44.2%
Horry: 10.2, 1.3 on 37.9% vs. 13.1, 2 on 40%
Cassell: 9.5, 0.9 on 33% vs. 11, 1.1 on 40%
Ellie: 8.8, 1 on 39.8% vs. 9.1, 1.3 on 43.1%

If anything, their stats went up in the playoffs, and that is, of course, in no small part due to Hakeem's dominating performance causing the defense to collapse.

[Michael Jordan.]

Not sure where that is coming from.

In 1994:
Maxwell: 13.6ppg, 1.6 3PM on 29.8% in regular season vs. 13.8 ppg, 2 3PM on 32.6% in the playoffs
Smith: 11.5, 1.1 3PM on 40.5% vs. 10.8, 1.5 on 44.7%
Horry: 9.9, 0.5 on 32.4% vs. 11.7, 1.5 on 38.2%
Elie: 9.3, 0.8 on 33.5% vs. 5.8, 0.4 on 31.3%
Cassell: 6.7, 0.4 on 29.5% vs. 9.4, 0.8 on 37.8%

In 1995:
Drexler: 21.4, 1.7 on 35.7% vs 20.5, 1.4 on 30.3%
Smith: 10.4, 1.8 on 42.9% 10.8, 2.1 on 44.2%
Horry: 10.2, 1.3 on 37.9% vs. 13.1, 2 on 40%
Cassell: 9.5, 0.9 on 33% vs. 11, 1.1 on 40%
Ellie: 8.8, 1 on 39.8% vs. 9.1, 1.3 on 43.1%

If anything, their stats went up in the playoffs, and that is, of course, in no small part due to Hakeem's dominating performance causing the defense to collapse.
Of the top 4 scorers in the regular season (93-94), Thorpe's scorng dropped from 14.0 to 11.3. Maxwell dropped from 38% shooting to 37%. Smith's FG percentage actually dropped from 48% to 45% overall. But like you said their three point shooting went up. Those numbers are crazy though.
PELTON'S RATING: 8.9

Position: C | Age: 31

Result: Won NBA Finals | Finals MVP

GP - 23 | PPG - 28.9 | RPG - 11.0 | APG - 4.3 | BPG - 4.0 | SPG - 1.7 | TS% - 56.8 | USG - 31.4

The year before he was reunited with college teammate Clyde Drexler, Olajuwon dragged a Rockets team without a second star to the first of back-to-back championships. Olajuwon averaged more than twice as many points in the playoffs as Houston's second-leading scorer (Vernon Maxwell, 13.8 points per game), the highest such ratio ever for a championship team. But the Rockets' fleet of outside shooters ideally suited Olajuwon's game, and he dominated the defensive end, becoming the only player to average 4.0 blocks per game in a Finals run.


Houston needed Olajuwon to be great every night, and he

scored (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=239677#) at least 20 points in 22 of 23 playoff games, including a pair of 40-point efforts. In the NBA Finals, Olajuwon outdueled Patrick Ewing of the New York Knicks (http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=239677#), averaging 26.1 points while holding Ewing to 18.9 PPG on 36.3 percent shooting in the Rockets' seven-game triumph.

[ambchang]

No doubt Hakeem was phenomenal in those playoffs. No need to convince me on it as I saw it with my own eyes. All I am saying is that Hakeem required a very specific type of team to be successful, that is to say a high volume 3 pt shooing team that gets the green light.

Duncan was as phenomenal in the 2003 playoffs though. Teams figured out how to guard inside out teams after dealing with the rockets and shaq led lakers, so the spurs system put a twist to the formula with heavier emphasis on penetration.

[spurraider21]

It's natural for role players' scoring to dip during the playoffs, since the lead dogs tend to "take over" more. But the fact that their 3 point % went up (relevant since Amb specifically referenced their outside shooting) sort of goes against MJ's point. That said, I still believe the Spurs '03 roster (minus Duncan of course) wasn't as good as the Rockets rosters. The Spurs team defense was great, but they were offensively inept.

[HarlemHeat37]

Olajuwon is one of the most overrated players of the internet era, tbh..his reputation has been severely inflated by forums/internet compared to his reputation while actually active, tbh..only Kobe's reputation has been more inflated by the internet..

He's still a top 10 player of all-time, but he benefits greatly from aesthetics and his 1-2 year peak, along with playing in the watered down 90s..

I also disagree with the notion that most people have him ranked ahead of Duncan..they don't, tbh..most people have Duncan ranked ahead of Olajuwon..

[Double-Up]

Olajuwon is one of the most overrated players of the internet era, tbh..his reputation has been severely inflated by forums/internet compared to his reputation while actually active, tbh..only Kobe's reputation has been more inflated by the internet..

He's still a top 10 player of all-time, but he benefits greatly from aesthetics and his 1-2 year peak, along with playing in the watered down 90s..

I also disagree with the notion that most people have him ranked ahead of Duncan..they don't, tbh..most people have Duncan ranked ahead of Olajuwon..

Yea ok, :lol

[Michael Jordan.]

It's still funny though. Some people still cannot distinguish between better player and better career.

[snickles]

pre-madonna

seriously?

[spurraider21]

It's still funny though. Some people still cannot distinguish between better player and better career.

I think the question you gotta ask yourself is: If you wanted to build a team that would win as many championships as possible, and you could have either player from their rookie year all the way until their final year, which would you take. Which player would give you more/better opportunities to win it all.

[Michael Jordan.]

I think the question you gotta ask yourself is: If you wanted to build a team that would win as many championships as possible, and you could have either player from their rookie year all the way until their final year, which would you take. Which player would give you more/better opportunities to win it all.

Fair question.

[jdiggy0424]

seriously?

Maybe the term "pre-madonna" is too harsh of a term, however in his early years, since getting picked #1 over the likes of Jordan, Barkley, and Stockton, he always thought he was entitled to every call. As we all know, defenses were much more aggressive towards individual players, and with his style of play, it wasnt uncommon for defenses to throw two, maybe even 3 defenders on it at times. So yes, maybe in todays NBA would he have gotten every call, but back then? He did a little too much complaining and bitching to the refs.

He was also a player of motivation. Put him in an ideal situation (aka Jordan leaving the league, his rival Robinson getting a ring, etc) and he flourishes. Put him in a situation where he feels like he can't contend? Sure he'll give you averages of 20 and 10, but he'll for the most part be in cruise control.

Thats what separates Duncan from Olajuwon, that sustained competitive fire that Duncan possesses that Olajuwon lacks. It's no wonder whose had (still having) the better career.

[Michael Jordan.]

Maybe the term "pre-madonna" is too harsh of a term, however in his early years, since getting picked #1 over the likes of Jordan, Barkley, and Stockton, he always thought he was entitled to every call. As we all know, defenses were much more aggressive towards individual players, and with his style of play, it wasnt uncommon for defenses to throw two, maybe even 3 defenders on it at times. So yes, maybe in todays NBA would he have gotten every call, but back then? He did a little too much complaining and bitching to the refs.

He was also a player of motivation. Put him in an ideal situation (aka Jordan leaving the league, his rival Robinson getting a ring, etc) and he flourishes. Put him in a situation where he feels like he can't contend? Sure he'll give you averages of 20 and 10, but he'll for the most part be in cruise control.

Thats what separates Duncan from Olajuwon, that sustained competitive fire that Duncan possesses that Olajuwon lacks. It's no wonder whose had (still having) the better career.
So Dream had all star help most of his career?

[Michael Jordan.]

He also got to the finals before MJ. Tbh. So that motivation excuse is bullshit.

[Double-Up]

If Ralph Sampson didn't get knocked off by injuries we wouldn't be even having this conversation.

[jdiggy0424]

So Dream had all star help most of his career?

Not saying that he had the greatest help in the world compared to other championship teams, but what separates superstar players to HOF players is the ability to maximize the teams talents around them. Duncan was able to do this on 4 separate occasions, while the Dream only 2x, also conveniently around the time where the GOAT was on hiatus. I feel like Duncan's 2003 was more impressive than any of the Dreams' championships.

[jdiggy0424]

He also got to the finals before MJ. Tbh. So that motivation excuse is bullshit.

I just feel that him getting to the Finals so early in his career may have actually hurt him in a way. When young players get to that point so early in their career, normally it should motivate them To get there again. So why the long gap for Hakeem despite being one of the greatest big men of all time? My guess is because he was Rondo-esque, in the sense that he was given too much too soon, and wasn't mature enough to deal with the losses year after year after year.

*on a side note I wouldn't be surprised if rondo goes into "cruise control" this year when he returns seeing how the Celtics situation is hopeless.

[Michael Jordan.]

I just feel that him getting to the Finals so early in his career may have actually hurt him in a way. When young players get to that point so early in their career, normally it should motivate them To get there again. So why the long gap for Hakeem despite being one of the greatest big men of all time? My guess is because he was Rondo-esque, in the sense that he was given too much too soon, and wasn't mature enough to deal with the losses year after year after year.

*on a side note I wouldn't be surprised if rondo goes into "cruise control" this year when he returns seeing how the Celtics situation is hopeless.
If you go back and look Sampson broke down after 2 years, and had about zero help until he was in his 30's.

[Michael Jordan.]

Not saying that he had the greatest help in the world compared to other championship teams, but what separates superstar players to HOF players is the ability to maximize the teams talents around them. Duncan was able to do this on 4 separate occasions, while the Dream only 2x, also conveniently around the time where the GOAT was on hiatus. I feel like Duncan's 2003 was more impressive than any of the Dreams' championships.
:lol Don't feed me that bullshit. Duncan had a prime Manu, Parker, lockdown Bowen, servicable Robinson who lasted longer than Sampson, HOF coach in Pop, and a well run organization. Hakeem? The Rockets were a shit organization who accused him of faking injuries. Where was Hakeem's help from 87-95?

[jdiggy0424]

:lol Don't feed me that bullshit. Duncan had a prime Manu, Parker, lockdown Bowen, servicable Robinson who lasted longer than Sampson, HOF coach in Pop, and a well run organization. Hakeem? The Rockets were a shit organization who accused him of faking injuries. Where was Hakeem's help from 87-95?

Honestly I can't really say nor know tbh who hakeems teammates were during that span and I'm not trying to shit on his career or anything, because it's HOF worthy no doubt, but what Duncan did with that '03 squad in my opinion is in my eyes more impressive than Hakeem's championships.

[jdiggy0424]

Maybe a little of why I think Duncan is greater than Hakeem is partly due to homerism, but Duncan's overall career stats certainly give me pretty good leeway on why I think he's better.

[Michael Jordan.]

Maybe a little of why I think Duncan is greater than Hakeem is partly due to homerism, but Duncan's overall career stats certainly give me pretty good leeway on why I think he's better.
No slight to Duncan, but in terms of stats, Dream wins.


Dream had 13 straight years of 20+ ppg, Duncan had a streak of 8 and 9 total.

Dream had 9 seasons at 23+ ppg, Duncan had 3.

Dream had 4 seasons of 25+ ppg, Duncan had 1 and all of Dream's were higher than Duncan's 1.

Even with his low production latter years, Dream's career FG% is higher than Timmy's.

Dream has 14 years at .500 or greater, Timmy has 9.

Dream has a higher FT%.

Dream has a higher 3PT%.

Dream has higher FG attempted percentage and higher FG made numbers.

Timmy has averaged slightly more minutes: 35.8 to 35.7 for Dream.

Defensively?

Dream leads substantially in steals and blocks.

Duncan's best year for steals (0.9) is the same as Dream's worst year, when he was 37 years old.

Dream blocked an average of 3 or more shots per game for 9 years and his career average is 3.1 bpg.

Duncan's seasonal high was 2.9, a number Dream did not fall below until he was 35 years old.

Duncan's high in RPG is 12.9, a number Dream beat 4 times (his high was 14 rpg).

Playoffs?

Dream wins FG%, 3P%, FT%, PPG, steals, blocks, and PER.

Dream had playoff PPG averages over 25 7 times, Duncan averaged 25+ PPG in the playoffs twice.

Dream was over 30 ppg twice, Duncan never.

Duncan had some great rebounding playoffs, but he never approached Dream's high of 16.8 RPG.

Duncan led the NBA in Field Goals, Free Throws, Defensive Rebounds, and Total Rebounds, all in the 01-02 season, as well as twice in games played. He also led 3 times in Defensive Rating, 1 time in Offensive Win Shares, 5 times in Defensive Win Shares, and twice in Win Shares. Total: 17.

Dream led the NBA in:

Games (4 years)
Field Goal Attempts (1)
Offensive Rebounds (1)
Defensive Rebounds (2)
Total Rebounds (2)
Blocks (2)
Rebounds Per Game (2)
Blocks Per Game (3)
Offensive Rebounding % (1)
Defensive Rebounding % (2)
Total Rebounding % (1)
Defensive Rating (5)
Defensive Win Shares (4)

Total: 30.

Again, Duncan's a great player, but there is no comparison here. No slight to Duncan, but it shows how spectacular Dream was... and he was that way for 13 years before the numbers began falling off.

[spurraider21]

i'm glad you brought up Dream's 3 point shooting

[TDfan2007]

You guys realize that Manu, Tony, and Tim were all healthy and in their primes for two seasons, don't you?

2006, 2007. That's it. Manu was injured in 2008 against LA, then in 2009 Tim's knees gave out. In 2005 Tony still couldn't shoot for shit, and good defenses gave him trouble (see Finals).

Tim Duncan has had to play with the likes of washed up Terry Porter, Danny Ferry, washed up Avery Johnson, and a banged up David Robinson, who missed chunks of the 2002 and 2003 playoffs. Timmy has had help, but not as much as his detractors/KG and Dream fans would have you believe.

[spurraider21]

You guys realize that Manu, Tony, and Tim were all healthy and in their primes for two seasons, don't you?

2006, 2007. That's it. Manu was injured in 2008 against LA, then in 2009 Tim's knees gave out. In 2005 Tony still couldn't shoot for shit, and good defenses gave him trouble (see Finals).

Tim Duncan has had to play with the likes of washed up Terry Porter, Danny Ferry, washed up Avery Johnson, and a banged up David Robinson, who missed chunks of the 2002 and 2003 playoffs. Timmy has had help, but not as much as his detractors/KG and Dream fans would have you believe.

in 03, at least. in 05 Manu was at his absolute best. in 07 Manu and Parker were both all star caliber. in 99 Robinson was still one of the better centers in the league. but the year I always point to is 03. Robinson was still a smart player but wasn't a guy the other team was worrying about. Parker was awful down the stretch in those playoffs, especially in the finals. Manu was a rook and was making a play here and there but that's about it. Stephen Jackson was our second leading scorer in the playoffs, and he wasn't anywhere near prime Jax

[Rogue]

The competition was much more intensive back then when Dream was playing than the post-Jordan era when Duncan won those rings, imho. You may argue that Duncan's supporting casts on those championship-winning sides were not necessarily superior to those Dream got during the 94' and 95' runs, but the Spurs were and are a much greater franchise than the Rockets have ever been, which you can hardly argue against. Dream definitely deserved credit for carrying a shitty team to the NBA championships twice in a row tbh. Antoher example, OKC had better talents prior to the Harden trade than either of the 94-95 rockets or the Spurs of 03-07, but the thunder have been a shitty franchise and I never fancied their chance of winning the championship, or even getting close to it. Dream managed to do what was nearly impossible, leading a shitty team to multiple NBA championships.

[Michael Jordan.]

Yet that 2003 supporting cast still outscored Dream's by nearly 100 points.

[weebo]

Yet that 2003 supporting cast still outscored Dream's by nearly 100 points.

Great players make teammates better...throughout his career Mr. Duncan has been the overall better team player

[Michael Jordan.]

Great players make teammates better...throughout his career Mr. Duncan has been the overall better team player
His teams weren't too shabby.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Tim Duncan is the PF version of Hakeem tbh

[Rogue]

Dude seems to me more like the PF version of Magic tbh.

[weebo]

His teams weren't too shabby.

neither were dream's...casell, horry, kenny, mad max, OT, clyde, robert reid, mario ellie, and so on.....

[Michael Jordan.]

neither were dream's...casell, horry, kenny, mad max, OT, clyde, robert reid, mario ellie, and so on.....

Most of those were in his 30's. I'm talking about from the moment Sampson bit the dust to winning. 87-94. How many hall of famers, hall of fame coaches, all stars, all star caliber players, did he play with during that time? In his absolute prime.

[-21-]

About whether or not the league was tougher in the 90's, just wanted to give my two cents.

I don't think it's fair to compare the two eras because the game has changed a lot. In the 90's, guys played more intense, physical ball. Today, the game is more open and free, kinda structured to help offenses more. Not only has the game changed but the players as well. Guys are much more athletic even if you look at the scrubs. There's also a lot of hybrid players these days with unique skill sets which was rare back then. I think the talent level has gone up too.

Personally, I think it was easier for defenses back then and it's easier for offenses today.

[Clipper Nation]

To be fair, defenses nowadays are far more sophisticated scheme-wise than they were in the '90s due to innovations like Thibs' strong-side defense....

[Michael Jordan.]

To be fair, defenses nowadays are far more sophisticated scheme-wise than they were in the '90s due to innovations like Thibs' strong-side defense....

True, but like 21 said, the game is tailored for Guards and Fowards these days. Innovative defenses is key when you can just swipe your arms under a defender and get 2 free throws.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Most of those were in his 30's. I'm talking about from the moment Sampson bit the dust to winning. 87-94. How many hall of famers, hall of fame coaches, all stars, all star caliber players, did he play with during that time? In his absolute prime.

Sampson had so much potential

[G-Dawgg]

Tim Duncan's career is easily more successful that Hakeem.Duncan at his prime would eat Olajuwan for breakfast. It's so funny how people forget how good Duncan really was at his prime. The Spurs literally ran the 4down play over and over and won championships doing it because nobody could stop Tim Duncan from scoring in the post. He'll never get the credit he truly deserves until he's finally retired and people look back and reflect. If I were building a new team, I'd take a prime Duncan over a prime Olajuwan any day.

[Michael Jordan.]

:lol gnsf

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:lol gnsf

Pot meet kettle

[spurraider21]

:lol missed the 1992 playoffs
:lol 42-40
:lol missing playoffs in your prime
:lol kobe

[Michael Jordan.]

:lol missed the 1992 playoffs
:lol 42-40
:lol missing playoffs in your prime
:lol kobe
:lol Desperate to make Duncan look better
:lol Hakeem missed 12 games that year

[Leetonidas]

Tim Duncan's career is easily more successful that Hakeem.Duncan at his prime would eat Olajuwan for breakfast. It's so funny how people forget how good Duncan really was at his prime. The Spurs literally ran the 4down play over and over and won championships doing it because nobody could stop Tim Duncan from scoring in the post. He'll never get the credit he truly deserves until he's finally retired and people look back and reflect. If I were building a new team, I'd take a prime Duncan over a prime Olajuwan any day.

Not disagreeing with some of this, but Robinson was a better defensive player in his heyday than Duncan and Olajuwon torched his ass in the playoffs. It'd be a good matchup and I don't expect Timmy to get shut down but I seriously doubt Tim would be eating him for breakfast

[Michael Jordan.]

Not disagreeing with some of this, but Robinson was a better defensive player in his heyday than Duncan and Olajuwon torched his ass in the playoffs. It'd be a good matchup and I don't expect Timmy to get shut down but I seriously doubt Tim would be eating him for breakfast
My sensible negro, Lee.

[spurraider21]

nobody would eat Olajuwon for breakfast. But Tim has had a longer span of great play and their peak seasons are equally impressive as far as how dominant they were.

[Michael Jordan.]

nobody would eat Olajuwon for breakfast. But Tim has had a longer span of great play and their peak seasons are equally impressive as far as how dominant they were.
Can't compare. Dream was a C, Duncan a PF and came in with Robinson anchoring center.

[spurraider21]

Can't compare. Dream was a C, Duncan a PF and came in with Robinson anchoring center.

yeah because Duncans play rapidly declined when robinson declined/retired :rolleyes

[da_suns_fan]

Cmon guys. Duncan was never as dominant as Hakeem (who was never as dominant as Shaq).

[Arcadian]

Tim's advantages in this battle:

+Better passing/court vision. He always finds the open man - and he is always looking to distribute, not just score. A true point-center in that regard. Often compared to a "quarterback" due to his ability to run the offense from any position and for launching his signature full-court passes (which are usually on target).

+Better team mate. Ask other NBA players which superstar they'd like to play with, and many of them would choose Tim. How can anyone not like this guy? He's just so chill. People talk a lot about the "firey" players, but those guys are also assholes and ball hogs.

+Better jump shot. It is commonly said that Tim is the best midrange shooter on the team, including the guards. This wasn't always the case - but it's one way that he's become better with age. Some games, he does the bulk of his scoring with jumpers from the shoulder. To say nothing of the famous bankshot. When defenders have to respect the jumper as a primary threat, this creates opportunities for him to attack the basket even more.

+More obsessed with winning. Despite his chill personality, he is also known to hate losing more than anyone else on the team. This probably aids in his "clutchness," as he takes more responsibility in all aspects of the game when it matters most. Often compared to Bill Russell in this regard.