Evidence For God - Answers for Atheists and Agnostics

[Koolaid_Man]

I don't like posting my sources but I will make an exception in this case because I want to educate the sheeple...:toast


A skeptic or atheist is governed by two main principles: 1) all beliefs must be supported by observational evidence (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro.html), and 2) beliefs that contradict observational evidence (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro.html) cannot be tolerated. However, strong atheism states that there is no god, even though observational evidence (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro.html) indicates that the universe has a cause that cannot be detected observationally. So despite the lack of observational evidence (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro.html) for a naturalistic cause for the universe, the strong atheist believes that the universe has a naturalistic cause and that there is no god, contradicting the tenet that all beliefs should be based upon observational evidence (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atheismintro.html).


^ The introduction for non-believers showed that strong atheism contradicts its own worldview by believing the universe has a natural cause despite the lack of observational evidence for such a belief. However, since there is no direct observational evidence regarding the origin of the universe, why should one believe the equally unobserved hypothesis that God created the universe? Although there is no direct evidence for the cause of the universe, we now have a fair amount of knowledge about the early history of the universe and the laws that govern it, which provide us with indirect evidence that a super-intelligent Agent designed the universe.

Detecting the non-physical
Atheists tend to fall into one of two camps. First, are the atheists who say that science cannot have anything to say about the existence of God. However, recently, the "new atheists" think that they can prove the non-existence of God through science. Although science cannot directly detect God, it can examine His creation. Consider the non-physical concept of love. We all accept that love exists, although it cannot be directly measured by science. However, if we observe those who love each other, we can indirectly measure the affect of love on these individuals' actions. For example, we might notice that they spend a lot of time together, they are constantly helping each other in various ways, and they come to each other's defense when the other is threatened in some way. Although we cannot measure love directly, we can measure the indirect effects of love. Likewise, although we cannot measure God directly, we can examine the universe to detect God's imprint on the physical world.




The best evidence for design can be seen in the nature of the universe and how it came to be. The process of discovery continues, since one of the fundamental properties of the universe, dark energy (or the cosmological constant), was discovered late in the last century. New studies continue to add to our knowledge about the universe and its extremely unlikely makeup.

The Big Bang
The Big Bang theory (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bigbang.html) states that the universe arose from a singularity of virtually no size, which gave rise to the dimensions of space and time, in addition to all matter and energy. At the beginning of the Big Bang, the four fundamental forces began to separate from each other. Early in its history (10-36 to 10-32 seconds), the universe underwent a period of short, but dramatic, hyper-inflationary expansion. The cause of this inflation is unknown, but was required for life to be possible in the universe.



Just right laws of physics
The laws of physics must have values very close to those observed or the universe does not work "well enough" to support life. What happens when we vary the constants? The strong nuclear force (which holds atoms together) has a value such that when the two hydrogen atoms fuse, 0.7% of the mass is converted into energy. If the value were 0.6% then a proton could not bond to a neutron, and the universe would consist only of hydrogen. If the value were 0.8%, then fusion would happen so readily that no hydrogen would have survived from the Big Bang. Other constants must be fine-tuned to an even more stringent degree. The cosmic microwave background varies by one part in 100,000. If this factor were slightly smaller, the universe would exist only as a collection of diffuse gas, since no stars or galaxies could ever form. If this factor were slightly larger, the universe would consist solely of large black holes. Likewise, the ratio of electrons to protons cannot vary by more than 1 part in 1037 or else electromagnetic interactions would prevent chemical reactions. In addition, if the ratio of the electromagnetic force constant to the gravitational constant were greater by more than 1 part in 1040, then electromagnetism would dominate gravity, preventing the formation of stars and galaxies. If the expansion rate of universe were 1 part in 1055 less than what it is, then the universe would have already collapsed. The most recently discovered physical law, the cosmological constant or dark energy, is the closest to zero of all the physical constants. In fact, a change of only 1 part in 10120 would completely negate the effect. The physical constants required to produce carbon and oxygen in stars is also narrowly fine tuned. A value for Hoyle state 2% higher than the measured value would prevent the formation of carbon.5 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/is_god_real.html#n05) A value 2% lower than the measured value would produce lots of carbon, but no oxygen.5 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/is_god_real.html#n05) Both are essential atoms for life.

Universal probability bounds
"Unlikely things happen all the time." This is the mantra of the anti-design movement. However, there is an absolute physical limit for improbable events to happen in our universe. The universe contains only 1080 baryons and has only been around for 13.8 billion years (1018 sec). Since the smallest unit of time is Planck time (10-45 sec),6 (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/is_god_real.html#n06) the lowest probability event that can ever happen in the history of the universe is:

1/1080 x 1/1018 x 1/1045 =1/10143



(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801072603/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=0801072603&link_code=as3&tag=savedbygracemini)http://127.0.0.1:1056/bug.cgi So, although it would be possible that one or two constants might require unusual fine-tuning by chance, it would be virtually impossible that all of them would require such fine-tuning. Some physicists have indicated that any of a number of different physical laws would be compatible with our present universe. However, it is not just the current state of the universe that must be compatible with the physical laws. Even more stringent are the initial conditions of the universe, since even minor deviations would have completely disrupted the process. For example, adding a grain of sand to the weight of the universe now would have no effect. However, adding even this small amount of weight at the beginning of the universe would have resulted in its collapse early in its history.




Conclusion http://www.godandscience.org/images/up1.gif (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/is_god_real.html#top) No, God has not left His name etched onto the surface of planets. However, there is abundant evidence that the universe was designed by super intelligent Agent, who purposed that the universe should exist and be capable of supporting advanced life. The design of the universe is just one line of evidence that tells us that God is real and created the universe. The design of the earth and solar system (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designss.html) is also quite impressive. Likewise, chemistry and physics preclude the possibility that life evolved on earth (http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/chemlife.html). In addition, human beings are remarkably different from every other animal on earth (http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/imageofgod.html), suggesting a departure from naturalistic processes.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/is_god_real.html

[xmas1997]

Just for everyone's perusal.
They say there is no such thing as an atheist or agnostic in a foxhole with explosions all around you.
Ponder that for a moment.

[The Reckoning]

look into alternate universes hypothesis

[Buddy Mignon]

Serious question. Why do you need a God?

[Koolaid_Man]

Serious question. Why do you need a God?

Because life is a bitch and then you die....belief makes me feel good...it gives me hope that this existence isn't all there is...based on my Koolaid research I have no doubts God exist...he's just chosen not to make himself personal to us at the moment...for whatever his reasons...the order in the universe is to complicated to deny the existence of a Super Intellect in a different dimension. I would even say the order on earth is to complicated to deny his existence...with all due respect just look at my Avatar if you need more proof...that's not accident......designing a Rolex watch is not by accident and neither is designing a human body...

The spirit world is real...it's complications are beyond the scope of our understanding and so is human and animal suffering...we can't understand it therefore we get upset with God and write him off...but he created us and so he gets to make the rules...that is a very dumbed down explanation but this is a Spur fan site...

[Buddy Mignon]

Because life is a bitch and then you die....belief makes me feel good...it gives me hope that this existence isn't all there is...based on my Koolaid research I have no doubts God exist...he's just chosen not to make himself personal to us at the moment...for whatever his reasons...the order in the universe is to complicated to deny the existence of a Super Intellect in a different dimension. I would even say the order on earth is to complicated to deny his existence...with all due respect just look at my Avatar if you need more proof...that's not accident......designing a Rolex watch is not by accident and neither is designing a human body...

The spirit world is real...it's complications are beyond the scope of our understanding and so is human and animal suffering...we can't understand it therefore we get upset with God and write him off...but he created us and so he gets to make the rules...that is a very dumbed down explanation but this is a Spur fan site...

Your Holy book should be proof enough, but scientists have made such great strides in the world that religion finds itself trying to defend its creator. Life is what you make it. This dying and going somewhere else thing... is there something out there that you can't have here while living? I'm off to dinner but I want to address the bold section when I get back.

[Leetonidas]

Serious question. Why do you need a God?

:wow

Please don't tell me we're going to agree about something

[Leetonidas]

btw there is literally NO evidence for the existence of god. anything you put forth is just grasping at straws and trying to explain something we haven't (yet) found an answer for. quit living in delusion

[DMC]

Just for everyone's perusal.
They say there is no such thing as an atheist or agnostic in a foxhole with explosions all around you.
Ponder that for a moment.

That's more an indictment of the foxhole than the atheist.

[Leetonidas]

Just for everyone's perusal.
They say there is no such thing as an atheist or agnostic in a foxhole with explosions all around you.
Ponder that for a moment.

Reverting to primitive survival instincts when in immediate life threatening danger is evidence of nothing other than the human mind being scared shitless that it's existence may be ending and it wants to continue. too easy.

[Leetonidas]

besides the fact that Koolaid_man exists and is allowed to post his shit threads on a daily basis is proof enough there is no god

[DMC]

Reverting to primitive survival instincts when in immediate life threatening danger is evidence of nothing other than the human mind being scared shitless that it's existence may be ending and it wants to continue. too easy.

I was thinking more along the lines that a atheist doesn't find a reason to go fight a war for wealthy people who never bleed for a cause. The "evil enemy" doesn't work for us.

[Leetonidas]

I find this to be particularly stupid:

"So, although it would be possible that one or two constants might require unusual fine-tuning by chance, it would be virtually impossible that all of them would require such fine-tuning. Some physicists have indicated that any of a number of different physical laws would be compatible with our present universe. However, it is not just the current state of the universe that must be compatible with the physical laws. Even more stringent are the initial conditions of the universe, since even minor deviations would have completely disrupted the process. For example, adding a grain of sand to the weight of the universe now would have no effect. However, adding even this small amount of weight at the beginning of the universe would have resulted in its collapse early in its history."


this is applicable to any one of us being born...Koolaid was one of many billions of sperm that was ejaculated from his dad's ballbag and the only that made it to his mother's womb. the chance of any person having been born is astronomical but you exist because there is the 1/7000000000 chance that the sperm that carried your essence made it to the uterus. and actually because most zygotes are terminated before anyone even realizes it the chances of your sperm making it to the uterus and then successfully fertilizing an egg and continuing to full development is more like 1/100000000000. just because the probability is small doesn't mean it won't or cannot occur. so gtfo with this ":cry the probability exists but it was so low that a grain of sand would throw it off :cry" bullshit. if your dad had jerked off one more time before you were conceived then your ass wouldn't exist. check mate mother fucker. :toast

[DMC]

The uneducated typically have a conviction toward scientifically unverified or even unverifiable beliefs, both in religion and in government subjects. These are often the conspiracy types. They lack the foundation that would normally provide the obvious exit ramp when dogma rears its head. The uneducated are easily duped. Then it becomes harder to deprogram dogma than just teaching science. Often science gets rejected by the virus of dogma.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

At 3:55 :lol
Just brilliant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzSMC5rWvos

[Koolaid_Man]

btw there is literally NO evidence for the existence of god. anything you put forth is just grasping at straws and trying to explain something we haven't (yet) found an answer for. quit living in delusion

and where's your evidence he doesn't exist? ohh wait let me guess it's not your burden? is that the only answer they taught you...I have all the evidence I need when I look up a the gas giants lighting the universe...or when I'm bout to hit them skins :lol..I'm very appreciative of it

[Buddy Mignon]

:wow

Please don't tell me we're going to agree about something


Calm down faggot. Just because you're a homo and I'm a stud doesn't mean we can't find something in common.

[Clipper Nation]

Kool trying soooo hard to justify believing in an invisible sky man.... it's like still believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy :lol

[Buddy Mignon]

Because life is a bitch and then you die....belief makes me feel good...it gives me hope that this existence isn't all there is...based on my Koolaid research I have no doubts God exist...he's just chosen not to make himself personal to us at the moment...for whatever his reasons...the order in the universe is to complicated to deny the existence of a Super Intellect in a different dimension. I would even say the order on earth is to complicated to deny his existence...with all due respect just look at my Avatar if you need more proof...that's not accident......designing a Rolex watch is not by accident and neither is designing a human body...

The spirit world is real...it's complications are beyond the scope of our understanding and so is human and animal suffering...we can't understand it therefore we get upset with God and write him off...but he created us and so he gets to make the rules...that is a very dumbed down explanation but this is a Spur fan site...

When you study these religions you'll find that most of them are rooted in spirituality, at least the main three and their thousands of sects are. Belief in an unseen God makes you feel good. Al Green's music makes me feel good, but I have no desire to bow down to or worship him or his music. It's the spirit/everlasting life thing that gets me in religion, so lets just deal that. Lets take miracle worker Jesus for a second... he's worshiped as a God due to his miracles. It's said that he walked on water as proof of his Godliness. Having read the bible I find that its riddled in symbolic language. Is there a chance that Jesus walking on water could represent something more rooted in reality? Water represents cleanliness... purity, and a host of other things. Could it mean that Jesus walked a clean or pure life, and not on actual water. And when he tried to teach Peter how to live/walk a clean/pure life... he tried, but failed because his faith was too weak? For me this makes more sense because there is no purpose or reason to walk on actual water to prove a point.

What about life after death? This is the gran-daddy of them all when it comes to religion. Everyone is caught up into to pleasing God in this life only to go on to an everlasting life once they die. Again... what is the purpose? For one second lets assume there is a God and he did create us. He told Abraham that due to his loyalty and faith that he would allow Abraham's seed to live forever. In those primitive times I could understand people taking that literally, but today we understand quite a bit about the human genome. Its an amazing part of our biology. This God was so smart that he possessed the wisdom to create a man and through that mans DNA he could live forever... literally. Could this be what he meant when he told Abraham that his seed would live forever? And not that the actual person would go somewhere once they die and live as a spirit for eternity?

And speaking of spirit... who can prove this? Angels and demons and a God sitting on a throne somewhere pulling the strings in his very own Muppet show. If I say the spirit of my brain is at ease knowing the Spurs didn't catch Kobe at five this past June... I'm only insinuating the mental activity produced from my brain is calm knowing the final outcome of what happened. If I say the spirit of Duncan's voice shrieked when he realized his wife was going to tell his secret of loving men... I'm only insinuating the sound his vocal cords produced was high pitched. You see where I'm going with this? The spirit of everything is produced by something of material. The spirit of wind, the spirit of sound, thought, mind, air, and anything you can think of is produced by something of matter. If there is a God and he's a spirit then we produced him, or he's produced by something of matter in the universe. There is no such thing as a life force that exist within the body that goes on living when the body dies. There is a ton of fiction out there concerning God and life after death. Its all bullshit that requires you to have blind faith to accept.

[Leetonidas]

and where's your evidence he doesn't exist? ohh wait let me guess it's not your burden? is that the only answer they taught you...I have all the evidence I need when I look up a the gas giants lighting the universe...or when I'm bout to hit them skins :lol..I'm very appreciative of it
:lol the whole "you can't prove he doesn't exist!"

lmao at your retarded falsifiability bullshit. you also can't disprove that god is a homo loving fag either with two buttholes.

http://i.imgur.com/j9jLP.jpg

[Leetonidas]

When you study these religions you'll find that most of them are rooted in spirituality, at least the main three and their thousands of sects are. Belief in an unseen God makes you feel good. Al Green's music makes me feel good, but I have no desire to bow down to or worship him or his music. It's the spirit/everlasting life thing that gets me in religion, so lets just deal that. Lets take miracle worker Jesus for a second... he's worshiped as a God due to his miracles. It's said that he walked on water as proof of his Godliness. Having read the bible I find that its riddled in symbolic language. Is there a chance that Jesus walking on water could represent something more rooted in reality? Water represents cleanliness... purity, and a host of other things. Could it mean that Jesus walked a clean or pure life, and not on actual water. And when he tried to teach Peter how to live/walk a clean/pure life... he tried, but failed because his faith was too weak? For me this makes more sense because there is no purpose or reason to walk on actual water to prove a point.

What about life after death? This is the gran-daddy of them all when it comes to religion. Everyone is caught up into to pleasing God in this life only to go on to an everlasting life once they die. Again... what is the purpose? For one second lets assume there is a God and he did create us. He told Abraham that due to his loyalty and faith that he would allow Abraham's seed to live forever. In those primitive times I could understand people taking that literally, but today we understand quite a bit about the human genome. Its an amazing part of our biology. This God was so smart that he possessed the wisdom to create a man and through that mans DNA he could live forever... literally. Could this be what he meant when he told Abraham that his seed would live forever? And not that the actual person would go somewhere once they die and live as a spirit for eternity?

And speaking of spirit... who can prove this? Angels and demons and a God sitting on a throne somewhere pulling the strings in his very own Muppet show. If I say the spirit of my brain is at ease knowing the Spurs didn't catch Kobe at five this past June... I'm only insinuating the mental activity produced from my brain is calm knowing the final outcome of what happened. If I say the spirit of Duncan's voice shrieked when he realized his wife was going to tell his secret of loving men... I'm only insinuating the sound his vocal cords produced was high pitched. You see where I'm going with this? The spirit of everything is produced by something of material. The spirit of wind, the spirit of sound, thought, mind, air, and anything you can think of is produced by something of matter. If there is a God and he's a spirit then we produced him, or he's produced by something of matter in the universe. There is no such thing as a life force that exist within the body that goes on living when the body dies. There is a ton of fiction out there concerning God and life after death. Its all bullshit that requires you to have blind faith to accept.

The style of this post proves without a doubt that you are Ghost_of_Gashir :lol

[DMC]

I don't like posting my sources but I will make an exception in this case because I want to educate the sheeple...:toast


Detecting the non-physical


The Big Bang



Just right laws of physics

Universal probability bounds



http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/is_god_real.html

I see no reason to argue against someone who isn't presenting an argument (you). Everything you've posted (especially in this thread) has been defeated countless times already. It's too easy to vomit out material from another site that you probably haven't even read, then sit back and see who responds. You'll have to do better if you want anything but the standard "tl;dr" type responses.

[Koolaid_Man]

When you study these religions you'll find that most of them are rooted in spirituality, at least the main three and their thousands of sects are. Belief in an unseen God makes you feel good. Al Green's music makes me feel good, but I have no desire to bow down to or worship him or his music. It's the spirit/everlasting life thing that gets me in religion, so lets just deal that. Lets take miracle worker Jesus for a second... he's worshiped as a God due to his miracles. It's said that he walked on water as proof of his Godliness. Having read the bible I find that its riddled in symbolic language. Is there a chance that Jesus walking on water could represent something more rooted in reality? Water represents cleanliness... purity, and a host of other things. Could it mean that Jesus walked a clean or pure life, and not on actual water. And when he tried to teach Peter how to live/walk a clean/pure life... he tried, but failed because his faith was too weak? For me this makes more sense because there is no purpose or reason to walk on actual water to prove a point.

What about life after death? This is the gran-daddy of them all when it comes to religion. Everyone is caught up into to pleasing God in this life only to go on to an everlasting life once they die. Again... what is the purpose? For one second lets assume there is a God and he did create us. He told Abraham that due to his loyalty and faith that he would allow Abraham's seed to live forever. In those primitive times I could understand people taking that literally, but today we understand quite a bit about the human genome. Its an amazing part of our biology. This God was so smart that he possessed the wisdom to create a man and through that mans DNA he could live forever... literally. Could this be what he meant when he told Abraham that his seed would live forever? And not that the actual person would go somewhere once they die and live as a spirit for eternity?

And speaking of spirit... who can prove this? Angels and demons and a God sitting on a throne somewhere pulling the strings in his very own Muppet show. If I say the spirit of my brain is at ease knowing the Spurs didn't catch Kobe at five this past June... I'm only insinuating the mental activity produced from my brain is calm knowing the final outcome of what happened. If I say the spirit of Duncan's voice shrieked when he realized his wife was going to tell his secret of loving men... I'm only insinuating the sound his vocal cords produced was high pitched. You see where I'm going with this? The spirit of everything is produced by something of material. The spirit of wind, the spirit of sound, thought, mind, air, and anything you can think of is produced by something of matter. If there is a God and he's a spirit then we produced him, or he's produced by something of matter in the universe. There is no such thing as a life force that exist within the body that goes on living when the body dies. There is a ton of fiction out there concerning God and life after death. Its all bullshit that requires you to have blind faith to accept.

You might be right in all that...but I'm a believer...no can say for sure what each parable or example means...was it literal or figurative is always up for debate...all I'm saying is there is no way a fine woman like Natalie with succulent breasts, a nice round and firm buttocks, and sweet nectarine vagina is the product of some mutant Star Wars like piece of bacteria.....no way...and then I come along with my nice chest, abs, and penis to compliment her...stick it in her and produce more life...no way man that's not chance....that's design....and I will tell you thi...God has a funny personality...sure life is bitter sweet...but at least he did give us physical pleasure...so I will take that...I'm a believer I believe in God because Science proves he transversed spiritual realm (a different dimension) and caused the big bang into the material universe...

why he's doing what he's doing I don't know...but I accept it because if he can create all that he has...I have to believe he has an ultimate or greater plan..I beleive life on earth is nothing but a pilot in the material universe..once he's done assessing he will fine tune again and for those that believed give them a place at his throne...or whatever it is they desire...I believe in the "fairy tale"....I'm all in..there is nothing else for non-believers...I imagine life can't be to joyful to not have a higher belief system

[Leetonidas]

Life is much more enjoyable because I live it to the fullest enjoyment because it's all I am ever going to have, I don't see how you theists could be happy thinking you're going to spend eternity serving some dude with no sins up in heaven everyday forever. :lol What a boring and meaningless existence. The fact is you fear death and want to believe there is an extension of life after that because you're afraid to die. Plain and simple. Grow the fuck up pussy :lol

[xmas1997]

Curious, what about out of body experiences when someone has died, but brought back to life?
These descriptions they tell us about are all too similar to be coincidence, don't you think?

[Blake]

Curious, what about out of body experiences when someone has died, but brought back to life?
These descriptions they tell us about are all too similar to be coincidence, don't you think?

Or when people find Jesus on a tortilla.

Too many Jesus tortillas to be a coincidence, imo.

[xmas1997]

Or when people find Jesus on a tortilla.

Too many Jesus tortillas to be a coincidence, imo.

Your sarcasm is noted. Jesus on tortillas is a trademark, didn't you know? :lol

But I was asking a serious question, Jesus flavored tortillas aside, as well as wall paintings, or screen doors, etc.
What about those experiences?
Or what about the purported miracles like bleeding statues, healings, and the like?
How are these explained?

[Leetonidas]

Curious, what about out of body experiences when someone has died, but brought back to life?
These descriptions they tell us about are all too similar to be coincidence, don't you think?

What about all the people that medically die and see nothing?

btw, the out of body shit is explained by DMT. look it up. your brain release DMT when youre about to die and it makes you trip balls basically and helps ease the minds anxiety upon dying

[Leetonidas]

Plus, you can't just look at things you cannot understand and explain at the moment and say "welp, god musta did it, no other explanation"

you really think an omnipotent being would make statues bleed but allow children to starve to death all over the world on a daily basis? :lol

[xmas1997]

Plus, you can't just look at things you cannot understand and explain at the moment and say "welp, god musta did it, no other explanation"

you really think an omnipotent being would make statues bleed but allow children to starve to death all over the world on a daily basis? :lol

These are questions I struggle with as well as anyone does, especially if you believe in an Omnipotent Being.
I have no answer, and may never have one.
But that is also why I say, for me anyway, that if you follow your conscience then you can't go far wrong, no matter your beliefs.

[Leetonidas]

At least you can admit that, you are a much less annoying and self-righteous than most of the other believers :lol

[HI-FI]

Serious question. Why do you need a God?
Why do you need Naruto?

[xmas1997]

At least you can admit that, you are a much less annoying and self-righteous than most of the other believers :lol

Thank you, but I admit I wasn't always this way. I've had a lot of rude awakenings along the way. Nowadays I try not to be so dogmatic and self righteous, because that is just ego getting in the way of things.
I think you need to able to laugh at yourself, because when you stop doing that, then you start taking yourself way too seriously, and this leads to mistakes.
I believe that is what Pop refers to, that so many of the haters are refusing to understand, that they are confusing with a loser attitude.

[HI-FI]

You might be right in all that...but I'm a believer...no can say for sure what each parable or example means...was it literal or figurative is always up for debate...all I'm saying is there is no way a fine woman like Natalie with succulent breasts, a nice round and firm buttocks, and sweet nectarine vagina is the product of some mutant Star Wars like piece of bacteria.....no way...and then I come along with my nice chest, abs, and penis to compliment her...stick it in her and produce more life...no way man that's not chance....that's design....and I will tell you thi...God has a funny personality...sure life is bitter sweet...but at least he did give us physical pleasure...so I will take that...I'm a believer I believe in God because Science proves he transversed spiritual realm (a different dimension) and caused the big bang into the material universe...

why he's doing what he's doing I don't know...but I accept it because if he can create all that he has...I have to believe he has an ultimate or greater plan..I beleive life on earth is nothing but a pilot in the material universe..once he's done assessing he will fine tune again and for those that believed give them a place at his throne...or whatever it is they desire...I believe in the "fairy tale"....I'm all in..there is nothing else for non-believers...I imagine life can't be to joyful to not have a higher belief system
:lol
i was about to say the same thing. when you drop the pseudo nigga schtick, you got some interesting stuff to say. some of it is over my head i'll admit, but I generally agree with some of it. i look at a natalie portman and her booty/moist regions, and enjoy the artistry of the creator.

what's strange is some people always say it's a fairy tale but I've never seen the idea of God as comforting, i suppose in some situations it is but in other moments I find the idea terrifying and uncomfortable, but then concepts like gravity, laws, shit solar or nuclear power, are uncomfortable too. There's too much beyond our evolved monkey brains, I guess I just try to go along for the ride.

[xmas1997]

I look at life like it is some grand amusement ride that we chose to come and do when we were just spirits before we were born. And that we had lessons to learn and adventures we wanted to try, and so chose to be born into life.
After we die, we may have other amusement rides that we, as spirits, might want to try.
Life is just one ride. There may be millions of rides just like life that we have no idea what they are.
Maybe death is another such ride, or maybe it is a continuation of the same ride called life.
Who knows?

The concept of God, yea or nay, is one that cannot be proved or disproved, as it is supported solely by ones faith alone. And the proof of this statement is supported by the fact that whenever anyone is asked who God is or if He exists, you will have a billion different answers (opinions again?) from however many people are on this planet.
I Am That I Am

[Blake]

:lol
i look at a natalie portman and her booty/moist regions, and enjoy the artistry of the creator.

Do you also enjoy seeing someone born with no arms?

What a good creator.

[Koolaid_Man]

Do you also enjoy seeing someone born with no arms?

What a good creator.

all God did was develop the genetic code...it's since been passed down through copulation of various genetic lines...he created and then he left..he will be back to check on things...until then we have to take care of things ourselves...when he's ready he will rectify all the wrongs..but that is mostly likely in the next life..

[HI-FI]

Kool with the goods.

[mouse]

Kool with the goods.

But for what forum?

[Blake]

all God did was develop the genetic code...it's since been passed down through copulation of various genetic lines...he created and then he left..he will be back to check on things...until then we have to take care of things ourselves...when he's ready he will rectify all the wrongs..but that is mostly likely in the next life..

Kool story. Not from the Bible though.

[mouse]

Kool story. Not from the Bible though.

^ has a point.

[mouse]

Why didn't God/Jesus tell everyone the earth was round?


He didn't want want to be a Square.

[IronMexican]

I like how the thread has "Answers" for Agonistics. In general, the point of being Agnostic is apathy to the entire brainwash system known as religion.

[Joseph Kony]

He didn't want want to be a Square.

mouse with the goods :lmao

[ismael-robert]

Isaiah 40:22 "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth". And Kool God did make Himself personal through Christ. God only created Adam and Eve and when Adam sinned he opened the door for corruption...so over time we have abused our planet which has led to mutations. So did God create children with no arms...no He created the free will we use to jack up our planet and pollute it thus corrupting the genetic code. What's more glorious though is when these limbless children grow up to be believers and they profess the word of God despite their abnormalities and yes when we die all that is corrected in Heaven when we receive our glorified bodies. It's actually not that hard to believe and we have an example here on earth. Look at the caterpillar. An ugly little creature, like us with our sin...then it goes into a cocoon and actually dies! It becomes this primordial goo that changes dna and becomes a butterly! They die and resurrect into glorified bodies! If an insect can do this how much more a human? Does God create starving children...again no that's the result of nations trying to do things their way, the result of corrupt militaristic regimes, etc. Again free will...it's also the result of God's people not believing and living their own selfish lives "to the fullest". Living to have fun and not actually go out and be a missionary to the poor. That's what I call living life to the fullest...living for someone other than yourself. Someone asked why God created us...for His glory simple.

[ismael-robert]

Additionally hasn't it been proven the human body possesses energy...is it possible this energy is the soul? There's positive and negative energy...is it possible sin is the negative energy and God is a pure source of positive energy? Is it possible that God, the uncaused cause, wanted us to be able to be reunited with Him so He created a way to remove all the negative energy so that we could be in His holy presence. But the negative energy of disbelief erases the possibility of having the negative energy of past sins removed so those souls could not be in His presence...the absolute purity of His energy would burn up/consume any negative energy in His presence...just to put a scientific spin on Christianity

[ismael-robert]

I would like yall to tell me who you think these sentences are talking about?

• “They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head” (Isaiah
69:4).
• Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?” (Psalm 2:1).
“The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together
against the Lord and against his anointed” (v. 2).
• “Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread,
hath lifted up his heel against me” (Psalm 41:9).
• “I shall smite the shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered” (Mark 14:27).
• “If ye think good, give me my price . . . so they weighed for my price thirty pieces
of silver . . . and cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of
them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord” (Zechariah 11:12–13).
•
“They shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod, upon the cheek” (Micah 5:1).
•
“I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting” (Isaiah 50:6).
•
“They pierced my hands and my feet” (Psalm 22:16).
•
“My God, my God why hast Thou forsaken me?” (Psalm 22:1).
•
“All they that see me laugh me to scorn, they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him; let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him” (Psalm 22:7–8)
•
“They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink” (Psalm 21:22).
•
“I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint” (Psalm 22:14).
•
“Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows” (Isaiah 53:4).
•
“As a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth” (Isaiah 53:7).
•
“They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture” (Psalm 22:18).
•
“He was numbered with the transgressors . . . and made intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:12).
•
“He hath poured out his soul unto death” (v. 12).
•
“Neither shall ye break a bone thereof” (Exodus 12:46).
•
“He keepeth all his bones; not one of them is broken” (Psalm 34:20).
•
“They shall look upon me whom they have pierced” (Zechariah 12:10).
•
“He made his grave . . . with the rich in his death” (Isaiah 53:9).
•
“They pierced my hands and feet” (Psalm 22:16).
•
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither will thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption” (Psalm 16:10).
•
Thou hast ascended on high, thou has led captivity captive; thou hast received gifts for men” (Psalm 68:18).
•
“The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou upon my right hand until I make mine enemies thy footstool” (Psalm 110:1).
•
There shall be a root of Jesse . . . to it shall the Gentiles seek; and his rest shall be glorious” (Isaiah 11:10).

[xmas1997]

Additionally hasn't it been proven the human body possesses energy...is it possible this energy is the soul? There's positive and negative energy...is it possible sin is the negative energy and God is a pure source of positive energy? Is it possible that God, the uncaused cause, wanted us to be able to be reunited with Him so He created a way to remove all the negative energy so that we could be in His holy presence. But the negative energy of disbelief erases the possibility of having the negative energy of past sins removed so those souls could not be in His presence...the absolute purity of His energy would burn up/consume any negative energy in His presence...just to put a scientific spin on Christianity

It has been proven (or shown?) that everything is possessed of energy, even empty space, which really isn't empty at all.
And that negative energy is a name we gave it for lack of a better definition. It really isn't negative, or adverse, it is just a way of differentiating it from positive energy, it's opposite. Had we discovered negative energy first, it would have probably been called positive energy. So how do we know which one is really the positive and which one is the negative energies?
Thus there really should be a better definition of both forms of energy.
IMHO All energy is of God.
It is our feeble and tiny intellects that have a need to label everything in order to understand it better.
I think the Real Truth is still beyond our capabilities to really and truly realize.
It is only our fragile, sensitive, and emotional egos that think we know it all.
Incidently, being fragile, being sensitive, and being emotional, none of these are necessarily wrong of themselves either. On the contrary, they all are part of God, if you believe in a Supreme Being, but only just part. God encompasses so very much more, in fact all of reality and even of unreality.
To say the least, He is way beyond our comprehension.
And IMHO, it is not wrong to not believe in God. If God exists, then He is more than capable of proving Himself to an unbeliever, and I bet He often does.
Thus, who am I to judge atheists or agnostics, or Wiccan, or anyone else?
I will not be so dogmatic and self righteous to set myself up to judge those people as being right or wrong just to satisfy my ego, or because I think a certain book commands me to do that.
Why?
Because if I truly believe in God, then I must also believe that we all are part of God and that God is in all of us.
Which IMHO makes all of us brothers, even if they are aware or unaware of who we all are.
I Am That I Am

[Blake]

I would like yall to tell me who you think these sentences are talking about?

• “They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head” (Isaiah
69:4).
• Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?” (Psalm 2:1).
“The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together
against the Lord and against his anointed” (v. 2).
• “Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread,
hath lifted up his heel against me” (Psalm 41:9).
• “I shall smite the shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered” (Mark 14:27).
• “If ye think good, give me my price . . . so they weighed for my price thirty pieces
of silver . . . and cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of
them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord” (Zechariah 11:12–13).
•
“They shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod, upon the cheek” (Micah 5:1).
•
“I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting” (Isaiah 50:6).
•
“They pierced my hands and my feet” (Psalm 22:16).
•
“My God, my God why hast Thou forsaken me?” (Psalm 22:1).
•
“All they that see me laugh me to scorn, they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him; let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him” (Psalm 22:7–8)
•
“They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink” (Psalm 21:22).
•
“I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint” (Psalm 22:14).
•
“Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows” (Isaiah 53:4).
•
“As a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth” (Isaiah 53:7).
•
“They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture” (Psalm 22:18).
•
“He was numbered with the transgressors . . . and made intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:12).
•
“He hath poured out his soul unto death” (v. 12).
•
“Neither shall ye break a bone thereof” (Exodus 12:46).
•
“He keepeth all his bones; not one of them is broken” (Psalm 34:20).
•
“They shall look upon me whom they have pierced” (Zechariah 12:10).
•
“He made his grave . . . with the rich in his death” (Isaiah 53:9).
•
“They pierced my hands and feet” (Psalm 22:16).
•
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither will thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption” (Psalm 16:10).
•
Thou hast ascended on high, thou has led captivity captive; thou hast received gifts for men” (Psalm 68:18).
•
“The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou upon my right hand until I make mine enemies thy footstool” (Psalm 110:1).
•
There shall be a root of Jesse . . . to it shall the Gentiles seek; and his rest shall be glorious” (Isaiah 11:10).

wut

[Blake]

Additionally hasn't it been proven the human body possesses energy...is it possible this energy is the soul? There's positive and negative energy...is it possible sin is the negative energy and God is a pure source of positive energy? Is it possible that God, the uncaused cause, wanted us to be able to be reunited with Him so He created a way to remove all the negative energy so that we could be in His holy presence. But the negative energy of disbelief erases the possibility of having the negative energy of past sins removed so those souls could not be in His presence...the absolute purity of His energy would burn up/consume any negative energy in His presence...just to put a scientific spin on Christianity

That's not a scientific spin.

[Blake]

So did God create children with no arms...no

Yes he did.

And he's never once healed an amputee.

[xmas1997]

That's not a scientific spin.

I would only agree if you replaced the words "negative and positive" with something like "evil and good", because I have a different more scientific definition of positive and negative energies that have nothing whatsoever to do with moralistic notions, rather they are just definitions , or types, not moral classifications.

[Two10Whitey]

All praise to Mithras!

[JoeChalupa]

I'm comfortable with my faith and let others do as they wish.

[xmas1997]

I'm comfortable with my faith and let others do as they wish.

So am I, Joe.
Everything I wrote was not meant for others to do as I say, or do as I did.
It was just a tiny bit of where I am coming from, of how my beliefs were shaped, and of the continual path I am on.
Nothing more, nothing less.

[DMC]

I would like yall to tell me who you think these sentences are talking about?

• “They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head” (Isaiah
69:4).
• Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?” (Psalm 2:1).
“The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together
against the Lord and against his anointed” (v. 2).
• “Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread,
hath lifted up his heel against me” (Psalm 41:9).
• “I shall smite the shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered” (Mark 14:27).
• “If ye think good, give me my price . . . so they weighed for my price thirty pieces
of silver . . . and cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of
them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord” (Zechariah 11:12–13).
•
“They shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod, upon the cheek” (Micah 5:1).
•
“I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting” (Isaiah 50:6).
•
“They pierced my hands and my feet” (Psalm 22:16).
•
“My God, my God why hast Thou forsaken me?” (Psalm 22:1).
•
“All they that see me laugh me to scorn, they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him; let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him” (Psalm 22:7–8)
•
“They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink” (Psalm 21:22).
•
“I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint” (Psalm 22:14).
•
“Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows” (Isaiah 53:4).
•
“As a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth” (Isaiah 53:7).
•
“They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture” (Psalm 22:18).
•
“He was numbered with the transgressors . . . and made intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:12).
•
“He hath poured out his soul unto death” (v. 12).
•
“Neither shall ye break a bone thereof” (Exodus 12:46).
•
“He keepeth all his bones; not one of them is broken” (Psalm 34:20).
•
“They shall look upon me whom they have pierced” (Zechariah 12:10).
•
“He made his grave . . . with the rich in his death” (Isaiah 53:9).
•
“They pierced my hands and feet” (Psalm 22:16).
•
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither will thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption” (Psalm 16:10).
•
Thou hast ascended on high, thou has led captivity captive; thou hast received gifts for men” (Psalm 68:18).
•
“The Lord said unto my Lord, sit thou upon my right hand until I make mine enemies thy footstool” (Psalm 110:1).
•
There shall be a root of Jesse . . . to it shall the Gentiles seek; and his rest shall be glorious” (Isaiah 11:10).



Levon wears his war wound like a crown
He calls his child Jesus 'cause he likes the name
And he sends him to the finest school in town.

Levon, Levon likes his money
He makes a lot they say
Spend his days counting
In a garage by the motorway

He was born a pauper
To a pawn on a Christmas day
When the New York Times
Said God is dead and war's begun
Alvin Tostig has a son today

And he shall be Levon
And he shall be a good man
And he shall be Levon
In tradition with the family plan
And he shall be Levon
And he shall be a good man
He shall be Levon.

[ismael-robert]

Blake I simply asked yall to read the list of verses I put and tell me who you think they are talking about. What's confusing about that? If we let others do as they wish doesn't really show we love them does it? xmas just because you share the Gospel with someone does it mean you're judging them? You said in another post you don't discredit the words of Jesus. So when Jesus says to spread His Gospel you don't think you need to do it? It wasn't some book, it was God Himself. When Jesus said those who don't follow His commands do not love Him and are not of Him isn't He saying not everyone is of God? He in fact says they are of their father the Devil.

[xmas1997]

Thanks, for clarifying the judging issue. Didn't mean to sound accusatory.
My feeling on spreading His Gospel is a little broader than just reading scripture to people, rather it is more to showing by example of His actions being echoed by mine, and hopefully by others, kind of what all you fellows are doing in this thread.
Discussions of the subject are always welcome.
Words tend to fall short compared to concrete actions IMHO. But I see you agree with that assessment, or at least I think you do. :lol
They say when two or more get together and discuss God, that is equivalent of praying and thus a church.
That was my only criticism of this thread, that it seemed like people were arguing to gain some sort of superior feeling rather than sharing what each of you (and me now too) have been fortunate enough to have been revealed to us either through study, experience, intuition, revelation, or any combination of those.
That should be done in a spirit of love, and not a battle of egos or wills in order to sit on some high and smug seat of superiority.
I am not accusing you nor any one of you of doing this, but the overall tone seemed to gravitate away from love as soon as the ridicule began. Then it became some sort of a contest instead of a sharing.
Thanks again.

[gee]

Okay, I'll share some gospel. Why not.

The Gospel of Matthew

Chapter 1

1:1 The Gospel of Matthew starts off with a massive, boring genealogy of Jesus, you know, the kind of genealogy we’re specifically told to ignore in 1 Timothy 1:4 and Titus 3:9.

1:6 So, here we get to David’s entry in Jesus’ genealogy. There are 28 generations listed from David to Jesus in Matthew’s Gospel, while Luke’s Gospel lists 43. Except for David on one end and Jesus on the other, the two lists together only share three of the same names.

1:18 We read this stupid genealogy all the way down to Joseph, and then it says Joseph was espoused to Mary who had been impregnated by the Holy Ghost. Wait, so what was the whole point of that genealogy? Jesus isn’t related to Joseph. Jesus isn’t related to King David. Jesus isn’t related to one single person in that genealogy. That genealogy is meaningless. What a waste of my fucking time.

1:23 So then the prophecy from Is. 7:14 is referenced as being fulfilled, the prophecy that “a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel”. Well, you were spot on there, dickhead. Not only that, but the prophecy in Isiah is about a young woman, not specifically a virgin, who lived at the time the prophecy was made and is long dead at this point.

1:24-25 Just a fun tidbit for those who believed that Mary was virgin her entire life. Even if by some stretch of the imagination she was actually impregnated by the Holy Ghost and didn’t make the whole thing up because becoming pregnant by Joseph before being espoused was greatly looked down upon in their society, verses 24-25 confirm that she at least lost her virginity relatively quickly after Jesus’ birth.

Chapter 2
2:2 The three wise men arrive at Jesus’ birthplace, saying they know the King of Jews has just being born there because they have seen his star in the east. However, there are five sections in the Bible that specifically condemn astronomy such as this as an abomination unto the lord.

2:5-6 King Herod’s priests and scribes say that Jesus’ birth has fulfilled the Bethlehem prophecy. So, Bethlehem Ephratah in Micah 5:2, which is the original wording before Matthew altered it to better fit the situation, doesn’t refer to the to the town of Bethlehem or any location at all, it’s referring to the clan of Bethlehem, specifically the son of Caleb’s second wife Ephratah. And this prophecy does not refer to a Messiah, but to a military leader who was destined to defeat the Assyrians. Jesus was a little too busy just walking around and telling stories to go on any military escapades, and he isn’t Caleb’s second wife’s son so the prophecy probably isn’t about him. Just saying.

2:9 If the star went before the three wise men and lead them to Bethlehem, it couldn’t really be considered astronomy because that does not describe any star or astronomical event ever. However, Matthew did not know that, back then stars were just thought of as little arrows of light a short distance from Earth. It wouldn’t be an issue to realistically say one had moved around and hovered in an area. People were real stupid back then.

2:14 An angel comes to visit Joseph and tells him to flee to Egypt because King Herod wants to kill Jesus. So he goes. But Luke reckons they went straight to Nazareth and didn’t make any pit stops in Egypt.

2:15 So at this point I realise that Matthew is an absolute fucking ****. More bullshit prophecies. He says that Jesus’ stay in Egypt until Herod’s death fulfilled the prophecy “Out of Egypt I have called my son”. The original prophecy before Matthew butchered it to fit the situation, was not a fucking prophecy at all. From Hosea 11:1, When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. This refers to the exodus of the Jews from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus at all. Fuck you Matthew.

2:16 So then, Herod gets pissed because Jesus escapes and everyone is mocking him, so he kills every child in Bethlehem two years old and younger. Surely a massacre of this level and criteria for killing would have been significant enough to be recorded by historians other than this bullshit artist Matthew. Apparently not. Josephus documented Herod’s life in detail and didn’t mention this. He must have forgotten.

2:17 Now Matthew uses a passage from Jeremiah 31:15 to claim the massacre had fulfilled a prophecy, however if you read the next couple of verses it becomes clear to anyone who is not completely fucking retarded that that passage refers to the Babylonians, and once again, has absolutely nothing to do with anything Matthew is talking about.

2:23 Bullshit prophecy number 5. But unlike the others, have no idea where this comes from.
Chapter 3

3:10-12 So we’re dealing with John the Baptist now, and at this point he is telling people that like trees who bear bad fruit are cut down and burned, so too will people who bear bad fruit. Okay...

3:14-15 I like John the Baptist. I don’t really have to look for the irregularities and absurdities myself when he just, like, says them out loud for me. And he is right. Why the hell would John the Baptist baptise Jesus, when Jesus is the sinless Son of God. Do you understand the sacrament of Baptism at all? It is to forgive original sin, show repentance and to begin initiation into the church, all of which would be a waste of time on Jesus. And then Jesus says ‘it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness’. Now what the fuck does that mean. Seriously. I have no idea.

Chapter 4
4:2 So now Jesus is out in the desert playing footsies with the Satan, and he happens to fast for forty days and forty nights. Yeah. That’s a full fast of no food or water. In extreme cases, humans can survive without food for 35-40 days if they are properly hydrated. But Jesus is out in the fucking desert, with no fluids. Not properly hydrated. Bullshit.

4:8 The devil kidnaps Jesus and takes him up to the top of an “exceedingly” high mountain. Okay, sure, and they can see all the kingdoms of the world from up there, because, I’m not sure if you’re aware or not, but the earth is actually flat, and you can indeed see it all at the tip of an exceedingly high mountain.

4:9 And now the devil is offering Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if Jesus worships him. Well shit Jesus, you should take him up on that offer. If you have the choice between the devil, who owns everything in the world, and God, who... uh.. yeah..., you should definitely give the devil a chance.

Chapter 5
5:17 Jesus is pretty much famous now, and is telling everyone how much he loves the Old Testament, which is inclusive of all the cruel and unusual conduct and punishments, countless cases of rape, incest, torture and plagues. Fucking cool, Jesus, I knew you were the man-God for me.

5:18-19 Jesus says the Old Testament rules apply to everyone forever, so I guess at this point we should pretty much kill everyone we know, because I completely guarantee you that every single person you know will have at some point in their lives broken an Old Testament rule that is punishable by death. All uncircumcised males, dead. All children who have argued with their parents, dead. Anyone who has worked on a Sunday, or made fire on a Sunday, dead. Etc etc etc so on and so forth you get the idea.

5:22 Jesus tells everyone that if you call somebody a fool, you are in serious danger of going to hell. Jesus calls his critics fools regularly. Paul likes calling people fools too.

5:28 Jesus says if a man looks at a woman with lust, or vice versa, they have committed adultery, which is yet another Old Testament crime punishable by death.

5:29-30 Jesus suggests a good way to avoid committing adultery or sins in general is to gouge out your eyes and cut off your hands, because you’ll be better off that way. That’s a little cultish Jesus, I’m liking you more and more by the verse.

5:34-37 Jesus forbids the taking of any oath. I guess that whole courtroom bullshit with your hand on the bible thing is even more offensive than a regular oath.

5:40 Jesus offers a little pearl of wisdom in that if you are ever sued and brought before a court, don’t defend yourself. That’s just not cool.

5:44 So now Jesus is getting a bit ahead of himself and telling everyone to love their enemies, which is a bit rich coming from a dude who condemns his enemies to hell. Calm down superstar.

Chapter 6
6:1-3 Okay, now I’m fucking confused. In Matthew 5:16 Jesus tells everyone to let everyone else see their good deeds, and now, in the next chapter, still on the same incoherent rant, you’re not meant to let anyone else see your good deeds. Seriously, even if anyone wanted to follow this shit they wouldn’t physically be able to.

6:5-6 Don’t pray in public. Churches and religious schools and world youth day have a lot of shit to answer for.
The rest of six is the ‘Our Father’ prayer, and there is so much wrong with this I don’t even want to go into it.

Chapter 7
7:7-8 Jesus is still talking shit, this time telling everyone to just ask for whatever you want and you will get it. Fucking stupid. If that were true Ray Allen would have dropped dead right before making that shot.

7:12 Jesus declares the golden rule of treating others how you would like to be treated. Sure, that nice. But then he says that it is a summary of the laws and prophets, those found in the Old Testament. Jesus has clearly never fucking read the Old Testament if that’s what he got out of it.

7:13-14 Jesus says most people will go to hell, but doesn’t really seem to care too much.

7:21 Jesus says that just be calling on his name, a person will not be saved. Peter and Paul mustn’t have been listening that day because after Jesus died they were telling people that would work for years, kind of awkward.

Chapter 8
8:5-13 So, Jesus has finally come down from the mountain, and a centurion has asked him to heal his sick slave. Jesus likes the sound of that. This would have been the perfect moment for Jesus to condemn slavery, but I guess Jesus likes that sound of that too, and does nothing of the sort. This section is argued as Jesus accepting homosexuality, the centurion-slave relationship gives off a gay vibe, and for all the ridiculous conclusions that theology scholars come to from interpreting the words of a drunken bullshit artist in terms of Matthew, Jesus accepting homosexuality is not that radical / absurd. The centurion and the slave were a gay couple, and Jesus did not give one shit.

8:14-15 So now Jesus is touching people’s hands, instantly healing them. Cool.

8:24-26 So now Jesus and his disciples are boating in the middle of a storm and the disciples are too scared and useless to do anything so they wake of Jesus. He stops the storm. Okay.

8:32-34 Some devils ask Jesus to put them into a herd of pigs. Jesus sees nothing wrong with this and it results in the pigs running off a cliff and drowning. The whole town comes out and tells Jesus that it’s been really nice and all, but I think it’s time you and your groupies fucked off.

Chapter 9
9:2-6 A man is paralysed, and because paralysis is clearly a matter of sinfulness and not brain damage or damage to the spinal cord, Jesus is able to cure him simply by forgiving him his sins, a power which only God is supposed to have.

9:13 Jesus isn’t into the whole animal sacrifice thing so he doesn’t do it, even though it is in the law.

9:18-22 Now Jesus is resurrecting dead children, and explaining that sin is the root of all death/illness. Not bacteria / cancer.

9:24 Everybody thinks a maid is dead, but Jesus thinks she is just sleeping. Then he wakes her up. It’s a miracle.

9:27-29 Blindness is caused by a lack of faith. Jesus heals blind people.

9:32-33 People who cannot speak are possessed by the devil, a devil, devils, the plurality of devils in this book keeps fucking changing and I don’t know what’s what. Jesus heals possessed people.

9:35 Finally Matthew decides to cut down on all the boring stories of healing, and just says that Jesus went to every city and every town and healed every sick person in existence. Great work Jesus.

Chapter 10
10:1 Now Jesus has given his followers the ability to perform exorcisms and heal all sicknesses and disease, once again a non-delegable power that only God can possess. Surely all the sick people have been healed now. Maybe Jesus should focus more on preventing that factors that lead to illnesses to cause an overall decrease in illness across the population, but then he wouldn’t get to wow people with his amazing healing abilities.

10:14-15 Jesus says anyone who politely declines to be preached at by him or his followers will have a pretty painful eternity.

10:29-31 God is responsible for the death of every sparrow.

Chapter 11
11.3 John the Baptist is still sceptical about whether or not Jesus is the real deal. Considering he’s the dude who baptised him and apparently witnessed a bunch of supernatural shit immediately after the baptism, it’s pretty concerning that he of all people is still questionable on the issue.

11.11 Jesus goes on a rant about John the Baptist being the greatest man to ever exist – because it always helps to try to flatter your detractors back onto your side. It’s also not very subtle, but apparently that doesn’t matter.

11:21-24 So, Jesus goes to preach in some cities, but they’re not really interested in hearing his bullshit, so he condemns them to painful deaths and eternity in hell per par. On judgement day, it will be better to be a homosexual man who practices anal sex with other homosexual men than it will to be a citizens of one of these cities that had better things to do than listen to incoherent and illogical ranting for a week. Vintage Jesus.

11:25 Jesus thanks God for not letting wise and prudent people believe this shit. Yeah, this must be some divine act of God that semi-intelligent people are able to spot hole after hole and flaw after flaw in this bullshit.

Chapter 12
12:1-5 So now Jesus and his disciples are going to town on a corn field, but shit man, it’s the Sabbath. Everyone’s all like “what the fuck are you bitches doing” but then Jesus chimes in with an Old Testament law that priests were allowed to do so. Of course, this is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament.

etc etc etc so on and so forth you get the idea

I think that went well.

[Blake]

Blake I simply asked yall to read the list of verses I put and tell me who you think they are talking about. What's confusing about that? If we let others do as they wish doesn't really show we love them does it? xmas just because you share the Gospel with someone does it mean you're judging them? You said in another post you don't discredit the words of Jesus. So when Jesus says to spread His Gospel you don't think you need to do it? It wasn't some book, it was God Himself. When Jesus said those who don't follow His commands do not love Him and are not of Him isn't He saying not everyone is of God? He in fact says they are of their father the Devil.

Nothing confusing. Just doubt anyone is going to do homework here. You simply need to make your claim and back it up.

And yeah, I think if you're going to be a true Christian, you can't pick and choose which commands/principles you want to live by. If you do, then you really don't believe God/Jesus is all knowing/all powerful.

[Blake]

Okay, I'll share some gospel. Why not.

The Gospel of Matthew

Chapter 1

1:1 The Gospel of Matthew starts off with a massive, boring genealogy of Jesus, you know, the kind of genealogy we’re specifically told to ignore in 1 Timothy 1:4 and Titus 3:9.

1:6 So, here we get to David’s entry in Jesus’ genealogy. There are 28 generations listed from David to Jesus in Matthew’s Gospel, while Luke’s Gospel lists 43. Except for David on one end and Jesus on the other, the two lists together only share three of the same names.

1:18 We read this stupid genealogy all the way down to Joseph, and then it says Joseph was espoused to Mary who had been impregnated by the Holy Ghost. Wait, so what was the whole point of that genealogy? Jesus isn’t related to Joseph. Jesus isn’t related to King David. Jesus isn’t related to one single person in that genealogy. That genealogy is meaningless. What a waste of my fucking time.

1:23 So then the prophecy from Is. 7:14 is referenced as being fulfilled, the prophecy that “a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel”. Well, you were spot on there, dickhead. Not only that, but the prophecy in Isiah is about a young woman, not specifically a virgin, who lived at the time the prophecy was made and is long dead at this point.

1:24-25 Just a fun tidbit for those who believed that Mary was virgin her entire life. Even if by some stretch of the imagination she was actually impregnated by the Holy Ghost and didn’t make the whole thing up because becoming pregnant by Joseph before being espoused was greatly looked down upon in their society, verses 24-25 confirm that she at least lost her virginity relatively quickly after Jesus’ birth.

Chapter 2
2:2 The three wise men arrive at Jesus’ birthplace, saying they know the King of Jews has just being born there because they have seen his star in the east. However, there are five sections in the Bible that specifically condemn astronomy such as this as an abomination unto the lord.

2:5-6 King Herod’s priests and scribes say that Jesus’ birth has fulfilled the Bethlehem prophecy. So, Bethlehem Ephratah in Micah 5:2, which is the original wording before Matthew altered it to better fit the situation, doesn’t refer to the to the town of Bethlehem or any location at all, it’s referring to the clan of Bethlehem, specifically the son of Caleb’s second wife Ephratah. And this prophecy does not refer to a Messiah, but to a military leader who was destined to defeat the Assyrians. Jesus was a little too busy just walking around and telling stories to go on any military escapades, and he isn’t Caleb’s second wife’s son so the prophecy probably isn’t about him. Just saying.

2:9 If the star went before the three wise men and lead them to Bethlehem, it couldn’t really be considered astronomy because that does not describe any star or astronomical event ever. However, Matthew did not know that, back then stars were just thought of as little arrows of light a short distance from Earth. It wouldn’t be an issue to realistically say one had moved around and hovered in an area. People were real stupid back then.

2:14 An angel comes to visit Joseph and tells him to flee to Egypt because King Herod wants to kill Jesus. So he goes. But Luke reckons they went straight to Nazareth and didn’t make any pit stops in Egypt.

2:15 So at this point I realise that Matthew is an absolute fucking ****. More bullshit prophecies. He says that Jesus’ stay in Egypt until Herod’s death fulfilled the prophecy “Out of Egypt I have called my son”. The original prophecy before Matthew butchered it to fit the situation, was not a fucking prophecy at all. From Hosea 11:1, When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. This refers to the exodus of the Jews from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus at all. Fuck you Matthew.

2:16 So then, Herod gets pissed because Jesus escapes and everyone is mocking him, so he kills every child in Bethlehem two years old and younger. Surely a massacre of this level and criteria for killing would have been significant enough to be recorded by historians other than this bullshit artist Matthew. Apparently not. Josephus documented Herod’s life in detail and didn’t mention this. He must have forgotten.

2:17 Now Matthew uses a passage from Jeremiah 31:15 to claim the massacre had fulfilled a prophecy, however if you read the next couple of verses it becomes clear to anyone who is not completely fucking retarded that that passage refers to the Babylonians, and once again, has absolutely nothing to do with anything Matthew is talking about.

2:23 Bullshit prophecy number 5. But unlike the others, have no idea where this comes from.
Chapter 3

3:10-12 So we’re dealing with John the Baptist now, and at this point he is telling people that like trees who bear bad fruit are cut down and burned, so too will people who bear bad fruit. Okay...

3:14-15 I like John the Baptist. I don’t really have to look for the irregularities and absurdities myself when he just, like, says them out loud for me. And he is right. Why the hell would John the Baptist baptise Jesus, when Jesus is the sinless Son of God. Do you understand the sacrament of Baptism at all? It is to forgive original sin, show repentance and to begin initiation into the church, all of which would be a waste of time on Jesus. And then Jesus says ‘it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness’. Now what the fuck does that mean. Seriously. I have no idea.

Chapter 4
4:2 So now Jesus is out in the desert playing footsies with the Satan, and he happens to fast for forty days and forty nights. Yeah. That’s a full fast of no food or water. In extreme cases, humans can survive without food for 35-40 days if they are properly hydrated. But Jesus is out in the fucking desert, with no fluids. Not properly hydrated. Bullshit.

4:8 The devil kidnaps Jesus and takes him up to the top of an “exceedingly” high mountain. Okay, sure, and they can see all the kingdoms of the world from up there, because, I’m not sure if you’re aware or not, but the earth is actually flat, and you can indeed see it all at the tip of an exceedingly high mountain.

4:9 And now the devil is offering Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if Jesus worships him. Well shit Jesus, you should take him up on that offer. If you have the choice between the devil, who owns everything in the world, and God, who... uh.. yeah..., you should definitely give the devil a chance.

Chapter 5
5:17 Jesus is pretty much famous now, and is telling everyone how much he loves the Old Testament, which is inclusive of all the cruel and unusual conduct and punishments, countless cases of rape, incest, torture and plagues. Fucking cool, Jesus, I knew you were the man-God for me.

5:18-19 Jesus says the Old Testament rules apply to everyone forever, so I guess at this point we should pretty much kill everyone we know, because I completely guarantee you that every single person you know will have at some point in their lives broken an Old Testament rule that is punishable by death. All uncircumcised males, dead. All children who have argued with their parents, dead. Anyone who has worked on a Sunday, or made fire on a Sunday, dead. Etc etc etc so on and so forth you get the idea.

5:22 Jesus tells everyone that if you call somebody a fool, you are in serious danger of going to hell. Jesus calls his critics fools regularly. Paul likes calling people fools too.

5:28 Jesus says if a man looks at a woman with lust, or vice versa, they have committed adultery, which is yet another Old Testament crime punishable by death.

5:29-30 Jesus suggests a good way to avoid committing adultery or sins in general is to gouge out your eyes and cut off your hands, because you’ll be better off that way. That’s a little cultish Jesus, I’m liking you more and more by the verse.

5:34-37 Jesus forbids the taking of any oath. I guess that whole courtroom bullshit with your hand on the bible thing is even more offensive than a regular oath.

5:40 Jesus offers a little pearl of wisdom in that if you are ever sued and brought before a court, don’t defend yourself. That’s just not cool.

5:44 So now Jesus is getting a bit ahead of himself and telling everyone to love their enemies, which is a bit rich coming from a dude who condemns his enemies to hell. Calm down superstar.

Chapter 6
6:1-3 Okay, now I’m fucking confused. In Matthew 5:16 Jesus tells everyone to let everyone else see their good deeds, and now, in the next chapter, still on the same incoherent rant, you’re not meant to let anyone else see your good deeds. Seriously, even if anyone wanted to follow this shit they wouldn’t physically be able to.

6:5-6 Don’t pray in public. Churches and religious schools and world youth day have a lot of shit to answer for.
The rest of six is the ‘Our Father’ prayer, and there is so much wrong with this I don’t even want to go into it.

Chapter 7
7:7-8 Jesus is still talking shit, this time telling everyone to just ask for whatever you want and you will get it. Fucking stupid. If that were true Ray Allen would have dropped dead right before making that shot.

7:12 Jesus declares the golden rule of treating others how you would like to be treated. Sure, that nice. But then he says that it is a summary of the laws and prophets, those found in the Old Testament. Jesus has clearly never fucking read the Old Testament if that’s what he got out of it.

7:13-14 Jesus says most people will go to hell, but doesn’t really seem to care too much.

7:21 Jesus says that just be calling on his name, a person will not be saved. Peter and Paul mustn’t have been listening that day because after Jesus died they were telling people that would work for years, kind of awkward.

Chapter 8
8:5-13 So, Jesus has finally come down from the mountain, and a centurion has asked him to heal his sick slave. Jesus likes the sound of that. This would have been the perfect moment for Jesus to condemn slavery, but I guess Jesus likes that sound of that too, and does nothing of the sort. This section is argued as Jesus accepting homosexuality, the centurion-slave relationship gives off a gay vibe, and for all the ridiculous conclusions that theology scholars come to from interpreting the words of a drunken bullshit artist in terms of Matthew, Jesus accepting homosexuality is not that radical / absurd. The centurion and the slave were a gay couple, and Jesus did not give one shit.

8:14-15 So now Jesus is touching people’s hands, instantly healing them. Cool.

8:24-26 So now Jesus and his disciples are boating in the middle of a storm and the disciples are too scared and useless to do anything so they wake of Jesus. He stops the storm. Okay.

8:32-34 Some devils ask Jesus to put them into a herd of pigs. Jesus sees nothing wrong with this and it results in the pigs running off a cliff and drowning. The whole town comes out and tells Jesus that it’s been really nice and all, but I think it’s time you and your groupies fucked off.

Chapter 9
9:2-6 A man is paralysed, and because paralysis is clearly a matter of sinfulness and not brain damage or damage to the spinal cord, Jesus is able to cure him simply by forgiving him his sins, a power which only God is supposed to have.

9:13 Jesus isn’t into the whole animal sacrifice thing so he doesn’t do it, even though it is in the law.

9:18-22 Now Jesus is resurrecting dead children, and explaining that sin is the root of all death/illness. Not bacteria / cancer.

9:24 Everybody thinks a maid is dead, but Jesus thinks she is just sleeping. Then he wakes her up. It’s a miracle.

9:27-29 Blindness is caused by a lack of faith. Jesus heals blind people.

9:32-33 People who cannot speak are possessed by the devil, a devil, devils, the plurality of devils in this book keeps fucking changing and I don’t know what’s what. Jesus heals possessed people.

9:35 Finally Matthew decides to cut down on all the boring stories of healing, and just says that Jesus went to every city and every town and healed every sick person in existence. Great work Jesus.

Chapter 10
10:1 Now Jesus has given his followers the ability to perform exorcisms and heal all sicknesses and disease, once again a non-delegable power that only God can possess. Surely all the sick people have been healed now. Maybe Jesus should focus more on preventing that factors that lead to illnesses to cause an overall decrease in illness across the population, but then he wouldn’t get to wow people with his amazing healing abilities.

10:14-15 Jesus says anyone who politely declines to be preached at by him or his followers will have a pretty painful eternity.

10:29-31 God is responsible for the death of every sparrow.

Chapter 11
11.3 John the Baptist is still sceptical about whether or not Jesus is the real deal. Considering he’s the dude who baptised him and apparently witnessed a bunch of supernatural shit immediately after the baptism, it’s pretty concerning that he of all people is still questionable on the issue.

11.11 Jesus goes on a rant about John the Baptist being the greatest man to ever exist – because it always helps to try to flatter your detractors back onto your side. It’s also not very subtle, but apparently that doesn’t matter.

11:21-24 So, Jesus goes to preach in some cities, but they’re not really interested in hearing his bullshit, so he condemns them to painful deaths and eternity in hell per par. On judgement day, it will be better to be a homosexual man who practices anal sex with other homosexual men than it will to be a citizens of one of these cities that had better things to do than listen to incoherent and illogical ranting for a week. Vintage Jesus.

11:25 Jesus thanks God for not letting wise and prudent people believe this shit. Yeah, this must be some divine act of God that semi-intelligent people are able to spot hole after hole and flaw after flaw in this bullshit.

Chapter 12
12:1-5 So now Jesus and his disciples are going to town on a corn field, but shit man, it’s the Sabbath. Everyone’s all like “what the fuck are you bitches doing” but then Jesus chimes in with an Old Testament law that priests were allowed to do so. Of course, this is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament.

etc etc etc so on and so forth you get the idea

I think that went well.

:lol :lol :lol

[xmas1997]

:lmao
Great job, Gee!
I love your sense of humor, the sarcasm and irony mixed.
Thank you for your sermon this morning, definitely lots to think about and laugh over.

Blake, were you referring to my pick and choose statement?

[Blake]

Blake, were you referring to my pick and choose statement?

I'm referring to your sentiment of cherry picking the good parts of the Bible and disregarding the ugly parts.

[xmas1997]

I'm referring to your sentiment of cherry picking the good parts of the Bible and disregarding the ugly parts.

:lol
Guess it makes little sense, huh?
In the other thread you say you are closest to agnostic. I'll keep that in mind.
Ok, I really do not cherry pick the Bible so much as I cherry pick the faith I most closely identify with, Catholicism which is just one of the Christian faiths, "cafeteria" is my humorous approach to it.
If I do any cherry picking of the Bible it is with the inconsistencies that are there, but the basic teachings are pretty much consistent. I believe the actual truth lies somewhere in between. In my studies I have found that one needs to approach the Bible with an open mind. I think this is true of all of life, as macrocosm reflects microcosm and vice versa.
My leaning toward metaphysics shows me that there is much beneath the surface, thus what is literal to one person, is very vague to another, it just depends on their perspective and how much they have been taught, but most of all how much they are willing to explore in order to get to the root of things.
Because when you start doing that (some call that "seeking the truth", while others have a more simplistic view of "seeking"), you begin to see profound reasons for why a certain scripture says one thing only to be contradicted a little later, or in another scripture. What is actually occurring on an esoteric level is a spurring of one to question and explore deeper.
Why the truth isn't just blatantly obvious rather than hidden I think is because of what was going on during those times with the persecutions and all. Plus the deeper truths in the wrong hands could be devastating.

[Blake]

:lol
Guess it makes little sense, huh?
In the other thread you say you are closest to agnostic. I'll keep that in mind.

What difference does my belief system make?


Plus the deeper truths in the wrong hands could be devastating.

How so?

[Leetonidas]

Posting more fairy tale quotes like it means anything. Here let me try:



“Far over the misty mountains cold
To dungeons deep and caverns old
We must away ere break of day
To seek the pale enchanted gold.

The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
While hammers fell like ringing bells
In places deep, where dark things sleep,
In hollow halls beneath the fells.

For ancient king and elvish lord
There many a gleaming golden hoard
They shaped and wrought, and light they caught
To hide in gems on hilt of sword.

On silver necklaces they strung
The flowering stars, on crowns they hung
The dragon-fire, in twisted wire
They meshed the light of moon and sun.

Far over the misty mountains cold
To dungeons deep and caverns old
We must away, ere break of day,
To claim our long-forgotten gold.

Goblets they carved there for themselves
And harps of gold; where no man delves
There lay they long, and many a song
Was sung unheard by men or elves.

The pines were roaring on the height,
The wind was moaning in the night.
The fire was red, it flaming spread;
The trees like torches blazed with light.

The bells were ringing in the dale
And men looked up with faces pale;
The dragon's ire more fierce than fire
Laid low their towers and houses frail.

The mountain smoked beneath the moon;
The dwarves, they heard the tramp of doom.
They fled their hall to dying fall
Beneath his feet, beneath the moon.

Far over the misty mountains grim
To dungeons deep and caverns dim
We must away, ere break of day,
To win our harps and gold from him!”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit

[ismael-robert]

Thanks for quoting JR Lee a great Christian author who was the one that lead CS Lewis to Christ. Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the rings series are great Christian book series. I agree with blake a Christian shouldn't cherry pick. Xmas theres no inconsistencies you just need to stydy further to iron out the supposed inconsistencies. Blake I did have a point to make but doesnt work till someone tells me who they think the list of verses I put are about. A non Christian needs to do that and its pretty clear once u read them

[ismael-robert]

All your questions in the verses u put Blake have been answered by Christians so if u really want the answers u can find them thats why I hold to there are no contradictions or errors. Just dont expect to find ur answers in the skeptics annotated bible a stupid place to look if ur seeking truth tbh

[ismael-robert]

Oh sorry that post was from gee so yea the answers r out there

[mouse]

And the bottom line is..........


aArHeQJmnuI

[xmas1997]

And the bottom line is..........


aArHeQJmnuI

:lmao
Leave it to Mouse. Only you could find something like that!

[ismael-robert]

Okay well the discussion is slowing down and I'm glad cause I was thinking of bowing out anyways my wife says I'm investing too much time here. Any how the point I was trying to make is that any non-believer can read the list of verses I posted and probably just after reading a couple come to the conclusion that they are all describing the life and death of Jesus Christ...that list is non-conclusive by the way there's over 300 prophesies He fulfilled! So the miraculous thing about those verses is that most people will think they're from NT cause of their accuracy but they're actually from OT...about 400 years pre-Christ! So if the Bible was human in origin how could these things have been written? And on that note I may or may not return. For clarification on all those apparent contradictions just Google and use a Christian website this time...I like equip.org; carm.org; gotquestions.org but there's so many others.

[ismael-robert]

Jesus is the friend of those who accept Him as Lord and Savior only. If u wanna post videos I prefer: http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=alive+in+you+7eventh+time+down&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=BC025A81691ED2EF7630BC025A81691ED2EF7630
or
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=lecrae&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=0F86357259C62C69F1690F86357259C62C69F169

[J.T.]

Just something to think about but this summer my granddad was diagnosed with cancer and quickly started the chemo treatments. His wife, my grandmother, died 13 years ago after they'd been married for 40 happy years. Tuesday of this week would have been her birthday, and he had to do chemo on that day but before he started the doctors checked his white blood cell counts and then told him the cancer was gone. Now, I'm not saying that crazy coincidence was the work of God, but the two of them were in church every week. They raised my mother that way and she raised me that way (although I can say basically every time I went to church was because I was forced to go and since I've been out of the house I haven't gone back because it's essentially a self-imposed guilt trip and fuck that). So, I'm sure everyone in my family thinks God did this for him and I won't say anything to try to take that away.

[DMC]

Nothing confusing. Just doubt anyone is going to do homework here. You simply need to make your claim and back it up.

And yeah, I think if you're going to be a true Christian, you can't pick and choose which commands/principles you want to live by. If you do, then you really don't believe God/Jesus is all knowing/all powerful.

Actually true Christians do just that. Otherwise they'd be Jews. The entire NT is a set of exceptions to the OT, using a more user friendly god. Also, the OT spanned thousands of years while the NT was about one person only. The term "Christian" means the believer has already violated a commandment: "Thou shalt have no other god before me". Christians are worshipers of Christ, not of God. They refer to God but worship Jesus.

[DMC]

Just something to think about but this summer my granddad was diagnosed with cancer and quickly started the chemo treatments. His wife, my grandmother, died 13 years ago after they'd been married for 40 happy years. Tuesday of this week would have been her birthday, and he had to do chemo on that day but before he started the doctors checked his white blood cell counts and then told him the cancer was gone. Now, I'm not saying that crazy coincidence was the work of God, but the two of them were in church every week. They raised my mother that way and she raised me that way (although I can say basically every time I went to church was because I was forced to go and since I've been out of the house I haven't gone back because it's essentially a self-imposed guilt trip and fuck that). So, I'm sure everyone in my family thinks God did this for him and I won't say anything to try to take that away.

Nothing wrong with attributing good things with God, as long as you also attribute bad things with the same God, meaning God gave him cancer in the first place to he could remove it so you'd believe in him. Then you have to allow that the same God allows children to be raped and murdered, butchered, burned alive, etc..

Unless you have a nebulous concept of a god and only refer to it during troubling times, you should either consider a god to be omniscient and omnibenevolent, or simply apathetic to the human condition.

[xmas1997]

Ok, a little more time to try and explain the Law question.
Christ was the fulfillment of the Law through His birth and death and especially rising from the dead, as explained by others here, but it goes deeper than that.

As also explained by others Christ also set new laws into place as well as explained their value for mankind, but most especially showed through His Acts and Actions the proper path to salvation.

It goes deeper than a simplistic view of just walking His walk or the popular view that one should believe in Him as their personal savior. This view is what mainstream Christian religion would have you believe, and that is ok for those who don't mind being led by the nose, who must have some sort of assemblage or church or symbol to believe in, but it misses the mark and places too much power in those man made institutions. Many of His apostles warned against this. In fact they went so far as to chastise many of the church leaders of the times for misusing and misleading to gain personal power in the name of Christ, rather than spreading the Word.
The Word was that He had come, fulfilled the Laws of the OT, arose from the dead and erased original sin. But He commanded us to follow in His footsteps. He promised that those who did as He did, would not only do the things He did, but do even greater things than He did.

In other words, if you live your life as a personification of Christ, or as closely as you can, exemplify Christ, or better yet, be a Christ like example through your everyday ACTIONS then Christ will begin to work through you.
If you reflect Christ, then in essence, you are Christ and Christ is you. You rise above your earthly desires.

This is saying a lot in a simplistic manner because it means a lot.
For example, Christ was never poor in the earthly sense, nor was He an egotist throwing around a superior persona, nor was He sickly, nor was He ignorant, nor was He greedy, nor did He wage war, nor was He jealous, or prideful, or desirous of anything more than the love of the Father. He walked the talk, and that talk was love and forgiveness which was His new commandment to mankind. To do this is not easy, but worth it because it leads straight to the Father.
And it even extends to life on earth in that a person who is Christ like will never know sickness, want, hunger, or even death, even in a literal sense.

All of these teachings were explained in His parables. Unfortunately many of His followers (or brothers as He called them so as to not set Himself up as being better than them) misunderstood. They could not accept these simple truths because they had so little faith, because their lives were beset with pains, illness, poverty, enemies, etc.

But the truth was it was all in their minds, they, having free will, had created their own misery. The Father never created their misery, rather He allowed them to create it. We still do, even now.
And what's more, while they were constantly creating their own misery in the world, they were so ignorant and devoid of faith, they weren't even aware that they were doing it, in other words they were creating their own hell on earth and were so ignorant that they.didn't even know they were responsible for doing it. Instead they blamed every external thing or person they could think of except themselves, they even blamed God for their woes.

Christ's Law is that once we reflect His Way and seek the Father, then all of us become Christ ourselves, Christ becomes us, and then poverty, sickness, and contentiousness will disappear in our lives, and we will even conquer death.
It is spiritual in nature first, but the new Law is that it filters down and becomes reality physically, emotionally, and mentally.

You are all welcome to believe whatever you want of this. I have tried to explain it in as simplistic a manner as possible.
Jesus used parables for the most part because it is so hard to believe, even to this day. It literally takes a suspension of belief sometimes in order to accomplish. It seems like fairy tales, but it is Truth.

Yet Christ did it in His day, and said we all would be able to do it too, if we followed His example, because we all are also Sons of the Father just as Jesus is, thus co-heirs to the kingdom of the Father. Thanks to Jesus Christ, we are all co-creators in and of life too, and the veil of original sin has been lifted, if we will only see, and seek the truth.
We all limit ourselves by our beliefs, God does not limit us, He gave us free will, because our beliefs are literally who we are, who we were, and who we will become. What you believe, so will it be. And all you need is faith no bigger than a mustard seed.
I Am That I Am

[xmas1997]

Thanks for quoting JR Lee a great Christian author who was the one that lead CS Lewis to Christ. Chronicles of Narnia and Lord of the rings series are great Christian book series. I agree with blake a Christian shouldn't cherry pick. Xmas theres no inconsistencies you just need to stydy further to iron out the supposed inconsistencies. Blake I did have a point to make but doesnt work till someone tells me who they think the list of verses I put are about. A non Christian needs to do that and its pretty clear once u read them

Ismael, it never stops. I never stop learning. The more I learn, the more I realize I have much more to learn.:lol

[silverblk mystix]

Ok, a little more time to try and explain the Law question.
Christ was the fulfillment of the Law through His birth and death and especially rising from the dead, as explained by others here, but it goes deeper than that.

As also explained by others Christ also set new laws into place as well as explained their value for mankind, but most especially showed through His Acts and Actions the proper path to salvation.

It goes deeper than a simplistic view of just walking His walk or the popular view that one should believe in Him as their personal savior. This view is what mainstream Christian religion would have you believe, and that is ok for those who don't mind being led by the nose, who must have some sort of assemblage or church or symbol to believe in, but it misses the mark and places too much power in those man made institutions. Many of His apostles warned against this. In fact they went so far as to chastise many of the church leaders of the times for misusing and misleading to gain personal power in the name of Christ, rather than spreading the Word.
The Word was that He had come, fulfilled the Laws of the OT, arose from the dead and erased original sin. But He commanded us to follow in His footsteps. He promised that those who did as He did, would not only do the things He did, but do even greater things than He did.

In other words, if you live your life as a personification of Christ, or as closely as you can, exemplify Christ, or better yet, be a Christ like example through your everyday ACTIONS then Christ will begin to work through you.
If you reflect Christ, then in essence, you are Christ and Christ is you. You rise above your earthly desires.

This is saying a lot in a simplistic manner because it means a lot.
For example, Christ was never poor in the earthly sense, nor was He an egotist throwing around a superior persona, nor was He sickly, nor was He ignorant, nor was He greedy, nor did He wage war, nor was He jealous, or prideful, or desirous of anything more than the love of the Father. He walked the talk, and that talk was love and forgiveness which was His new commandment to mankind. To do this is not easy, but worth it because it leads straight to the Father.
And it even extends to life on earth in that a person who is Christ like will never know sickness, want, hunger, or even death, even in a literal sense.

All of these teachings were explained in His parables. Unfortunately many of His followers (or brothers as He called them so as to not set Himself up as being better than them) misunderstood. They could not accept these simple truths because they had so little faith, because their lives were beset with pains, illness, poverty, enemies, etc.

But the truth was it was all in their minds, they, having free will, had created their own misery. The Father never created their misery, rather He allowed them to create it. We still do, even now.

Christ's Law is that once we reflect His Way and seek the Father, then all of us become Christ ourselves, Christ becomes us, and then poverty, sickness, and contentiousness will disappear in our lives, and we will even conquer death.
It is spiritual in nature first, but the new Law is that it filters down and becomes reality physically, emotionally, and mentally.

You are all welcome to believe whatever you want of this. I have tried to explain it in as simplistic a manner as possible.
Jesus used parables for the most part because it is so hard to believe, even to this day. It literally takes a suspension of belief sometimes in order to accomplish. It seems like fairy tales, but it is Truth.

Yet Christ did it in His day, and said we all would be able to do it too, if we followed His example, because we all are also Sons of the Father just as Jesus is, thus co-heirs to the kingdom of the Father. Thanks to Jesus Christ, we are all co-creators in and of life too.
We all limit ourselves by our beliefs, God does not limit us, He gave us free will, because our beliefs are literally who we are, who we were, and who we will become. What you believe, so will it be. And all you need is faith no bigger than a mustard seed.
I Am That I Am


To dumb it waaaay down for spurstalk posters - here is what I believe you are saying here;


Christ was awake.

[silverblk mystix]

Thank you, but I admit I wasn't always this way. I've had a lot of rude awakenings along the way. Nowadays I try not to be so dogmatic and self righteous, because that is just ego getting in the way of things.
I think you need to able to laugh at yourself, because when you stop doing that, then you start taking yourself way too seriously, and this leads to mistakes.
I believe that is what Pop refers to, that so many of the haters are refusing to understand, that they are confusing with a loser attitude.



For clarification purposes - in case you include me in this;

I believe what YOU are confusing is that I actually agree with a lot of what Pop does and says and stands for - AS A HUMAN BEING.

As a coach - this is the WORST thing you could do.

The same way that gov't separates religion and laws - is the same way I see coaching a pro team for glory/money/rewards etc...

and living a true life with a humble sense of perspective.

Pop appears to have his shit really together - as a human being living a true life.

Pop is coaching a pro team and he needs to be a ballbreaking/ambitious/motherfucker - in order to beat everyone else.

Love Pop the human being.

Hate Pop the coach of my beloved team.

[silverblk mystix]

Levon wears his war wound like a crown
He calls his child Jesus 'cause he likes the name
And he sends him to the finest school in town.
Levon, Levon likes his money
He makes a lot they say
Spend his days counting
In a garage by the motorway
He was born a pauper
To a pawn on a Christmas day
When the New York Times
Said God is dead and war's begun
Alvin Tostig has a son today
And he shall be Levon
And he shall be a good man
And he shall be Levon
In tradition with the family plan
And he shall be Levon
And he shall be a good man
He shall be Levon.




Bernie Taupin - one of my earliest influences.

[xmas1997]

To dumb it waaaay down for spurstalk posters - here is what I believe you are saying here;


Christ was awake.

Wow, yes, Christ was awake, aware, enlightened, whatever, the veil was lifted.
And a case could be made that the veil was original sin.
Thanks, couldn't say it better myself.

[silverblk mystix]

Wow, yes, Christ was awake, aware, enlightened, whatever, the veil was lifted.
Thanks, couldn't say it better myself.

Well, you have - at least tried to be civil in here - I gave up - but this has been my message as long as I have been here - but no one really wants the truth. The difference has always been - when it comes to the god question - is that - being awake is the only way to get anywhere near truth - even though most of us were programmed to do the opposite.

What most people want is to confirm what they already believe - not to actually seek truth.

I applaud your tactfulness when addressing those in here and am seriously curious to see how long it can last.

[Blake]

Well, you have - at least tried to be civil in here - I gave up - but this has been my message as long as I have been here - but no one really wants the truth. The difference has always been - when it comes to the god question - is that - being awake is the only way to get anywhere near truth - even though most of us were programmed to do the opposite.

What most people want is to confirm what they already believe - not to actually seek truth.

I applaud your tactfulness when addressing those in here and am seriously curious to see how long it can last.

You yourself are blind according to you, so you have no say in what enlightened truth is.

[Blake]

For clarification purposes - in case you include me in this;

I believe what YOU are confusing is that I actually agree with a lot of what Pop does and says and stands for - AS A HUMAN BEING.

As a coach - this is the WORST thing you could do.

The same way that gov't separates religion and laws - is the same way I see coaching a pro team for glory/money/rewards etc...

and living a true life with a humble sense of perspective.

Pop appears to have his shit really together - as a human being living a true life.

Pop is coaching a pro team and he needs to be a ballbreaking/ambitious/motherfucker - in order to beat everyone else.

Love Pop the human being.

Hate Pop the coach of my beloved team.

you're blind.

[Blake]

Actually true Christians do just that. Otherwise they'd be Jews. The entire NT is a set of exceptions to the OT, using a more user friendly god. Also, the OT spanned thousands of years while the NT was about one person only. The term "Christian" means the believer has already violated a commandment: "Thou shalt have no other god before me". Christians are worshipers of Christ, not of God. They refer to God but worship Jesus.

John 1, Jesus refers to himself as God, clearly OT Jew God.

[xmas1997]

I am human. I am going to make my share of mistakes due to my personal imperfections.
But hopefully I will keep learning from those mistakes until I don't make them anymore.
But I am also of God, and blessed with His gifts.
Free will is an extremely powerful mechanism.
Science helps actually in understanding things like this.
How?
Science has shown how the human mind works very similarly like a computer, what we program into it is what we get out of it.
It is also like a flower bed. If we plant seeds of doubt, worry, fear, etc., then those are the weeds that will grow and maybe even choke off the good seeds we planted such as prosperity, happiness, peace, etc.
Thus when we water the flower bed, we water the weeds with the flowers. We allow for the terrible things that happen to us in life to actually occur because we thought of them in the first place and gave them power by our free will.

That is why we have a huge responsibility to censor our every thought, our words, and our actions or deeds.

Christ gave us a huge powerful weapon to do this with.
It is called forgiveness and is born of love.

We need to forgive ourselves for having our imperfect or negative thoughts, worries, and fears.
And we also need to forgive others for the same.
Plus we also need to constantly censor those thoughts, words, and actions.

That way we wipe the slate clean, we weed out the flower bed, we deprogram our computer like minds and get rid of the viruses that infect it.
Free will is very powerful. It is God's great gift to us that is His impetus behind all of creation, His force that we use to create with.
But forgiveness is even more powerful, it is a sword and a shield, and it is the great gift of Christ from His love for us.
Again I do not ask any one of you to believe any of this. This is my personal belief. It is what it is.
I Am That I Am

[Blake]

To dumb it waaaay down for spurstalk posters - here is what I believe you are saying here;


Christ was awake.

He was trying to explain the law.

You're too dumb for this. Take your unenlightened hate for Pop back downstairs.

[TE]

so many agendas on Spurstalk tbh. Why can't we all just be friends? :cry

[silverblk mystix]

He was trying to explain the law.

You're too dumb for this. Take your unenlightened hate for Pop back downstairs.

So you can't answer the question I posed to you above, you can be civil when you want to be and you are definitely a lifelong butthurt poster whenever you address me because you are proving it right here.

Got it!

[xmas1997]

Well, you have - at least tried to be civil in here - I gave up - but this has been my message as long as I have been here - but no one really wants the truth. The difference has always been - when it comes to the god question - is that - being awake is the only way to get anywhere near truth - even though most of us were programmed to do the opposite.

What most people want is to confirm what they already believe - not to actually seek truth.

I applaud your tactfulness when addressing those in here and am seriously curious to see how long it can last.

Sometimes it is just plain less frustrating to just go ahead and give up, that I understand.
There is never any reason to not be civil, however. The alternative is barbarianism.
Yes, most of us were programed to be sheep, follow the Christian party line.
But that becomes impossible when even a tiny part of the veil is lifted from our eyes.
I think your statement, "no one really wants the truth", is only partially true though.
First, I suspect you feel that way due to frustration and second, from having to deal with being ridiculed for expressing your opinion.
If so, consider, they may be reacting exactly the same as you are.
And we all know where pissing contests get us, right? :lol
If not, there is always something somewhere that happens to us to remind us, to bring us back to reality, to the reality that we have most probably taken ourselves too seriously for our own good.

I think most people actually do seek the truth, but either our pride or our ego gets in the way.
We get in the way of ourselves, and thus down comes the veil.
Laughter helps lift my veil, that is why I am capable of laughing at myself.

[Skull-1]

God is on the side with the best artillery. - Napoleon Bonaparte

[Skull-1]

John 1, Jesus refers to himself as God, clearly OT Jew God.

??????

[xmas1997]

??????

Skull, do not forget that Blake most closely aligns himself with agnosticism so rather than ridicule, please try and help, and even though he may not accept your help in the long run, then at least you tried.
Yes, it can be frustrating, but it is worth the effort.
Blake is most probably reacting to being ridiculed, even I can see that.
Help, resist hurting out of frustration. You are bigger than that.

[Skull-1]

Skull, do not forget that Blake most closely aligns himself with agnosticism so rather than ridicule, please try and help, and even though he may not accept your help in the long run, then at least you tried.
Yes, it can be frustrating, but it is worth the effort.
Blake is most probably reacting to being ridiculed, even I can see that.
Help, resist hurting out of frustration. You are bigger than that.

In this case I was not ridiculing. That was a sign of perplexity.

[xmas1997]

In this case I was not ridiculing. That was a sign of perplexity.

Ok, perplexity then. We all get perplexed every now and then.
Now, back to the subject matter.
Is there any way we can have this discussion without it perplexing you?
I seriously doubt anyone wants to do that on purpose.

It will not be easy, but I think it is important enough for us to understand where you are coming from, how you have arrived at what you believe, and what exactly it is that you do believe.
And if you say it in lay terms, that be the best and easiest for us to understand. That is what I did when I explained what I had to say.

[mouse]

Soyou can be civil when you want to be and you are definitely a lifelong butthurt poster whenever you address me because you are proving it right here.

Got it!

Keep in mind three different people share the screen name and cubicle where Blake works.

That is why you sometimes are arguing with a Blake that says fag and fuck you's every other word and depending on what time of the day or shift it is your sometimes talking to a Blake that doesn't curse at all.

[silverblk mystix]

Sometimes it is just plain less frustrating to just go ahead and give up, that I understand.
There is never any reason to not be civil, however. The alternative is barbarianism.
Yes, most of us were programed to be sheep, follow the Christian party line.
But that becomes impossible when even a tiny part of the veil is lifted from our eyes.
I think your statement, "no one really wants the truth", is only partially true though.
First, I suspect you feel that way due to frustration and second, from having to deal with being ridiculed for expressing your opinion.
If so, consider, they may be reacting exactly the same as you are.
And we all know where pissing contests get us, right? :lol
If not, there is always something somewhere that happens to us to remind us, to bring us back to reality, to the reality that we have most probably taken ourselves too seriously for our own good.

I think most people actually do seek the truth, but either our pride or our ego gets in the way.
We get in the way of ourselves, and thus down comes the veil.
Laughter helps lift my veil, that is why I am capable of laughing at myself.

A little perspective if you will;

In forums where there are rules and people get banned quickly for questionable conduct - these religious discussions end up pretty badly anyway.

In here - where there are no rules and anyone can be a total ass and get away with it -these religious discussions are just an excuse for assholes to display asshole behavior.

It never really matters if the message gets across tbh - you say your piece and let the chips fall where they may - if assholes can't or won't grasp it - it does not really make a difference - the truth is there anyway. When I said I gave up - I didn't mean to imply I had much invested in it - I meant I give up trying to play by the rules in a place where there are no rules.

The truth has always been there but people will not see it because they are blind - not because they are evil. No one does evil in awareness only when they are asleep.

[silverblk mystix]

Keep in mind three different people share the screen name and cubicle where Blake works.

That is why you sometimes are arguing with a Blake that says fag and fuck you's every other word and depending on what time of the day or shift it is your sometimes talking to a Blake that doesn't curse at all.

lol

do you also think that sometimes when he posts he believes he is posting as chumpie?

[mouse]

Actually Chump shares his cubicle with two others also. I busted him a few months ago when I was exposed to a Government paid poster back when Alex Jones was trying to post pics of the Boston Bombings. I thought it was just another conspiracy that the Government hires computer geeks to monitor and post at various websites.

So I did some research I noted the times and dates when Chump and Blake were online it only left 2 hours a day for sleep.

Also the style of posting was different. Not to mention the Blake #2 and Chump #3 had no idea of the conversations we had earlier.

Now that I know about this I wait until Chump #2 or Blake #1 is online before I engage in any conversations with them.

http://consciouslifenews.com/paid-internet-shill-shadowy-groups-manipulate-internet-opinion-debate/1147073/



UWZirX4pFRc

[silverblk mystix]

Actually Chump shares his cubicle with two others also. I busted him a few months ago when I was exposed to a Government paid poster back when Alex Jones was trying to post pics of the Boston Bombings. I thought it was just another conspiracy that the Government hires computer geeks to monitor and post at various websites.

So I did some research I noted the times and dates when Chump and Blake were online it only left 2 hours a day for sleep.

Also the style of posting was different. Not to mention the Blake #2 and Chump #3 had no idea of the conversations we had earlier.

Now that I know about this I wait until Chump #2 or Blake #1 is online before I engage in any conversations with them.

http://consciouslifenews.com/paid-internet-shill-shadowy-groups-manipulate-internet-opinion-debate/1147073/



UWZirX4pFRc


So they are even bigger losers than I originally thought - thanks!

[mouse]

If I only had this Info years ago it could have save me many hours debating 9/11 and Evolution.

[Skull-1]

Ok, perplexity then. We all get perplexed every now and then.
Now, back to the subject matter.
Is there any way we can have this discussion without it perplexing you?
I seriously doubt anyone wants to do that on purpose.

It will not be easy, but I think it is important enough for us to understand where you are coming from, how you have arrived at what you believe, and what exactly it is that you do believe.
And if you say it in lay terms, that be the best and easiest for us to understand. That is what I did when I explained what I had to say.

Yeah, if people don't say things that are illogical, unsubstantiated, or perplexing....

I still can't get any of you to the first principles of the basic level...... It doesn't get much easier than this....

[xmas1997]

Yeah, if people don't say things that are illogical, unsubstantiated, or perplexing....

I still can't get any of you to the first principles of the basic level...... It doesn't get much easier than this....

All we are asking is to try. People will be people. You cannot have unrealistic expectations of them. You just have to do the best you can and then let it sink in. Some people take longer, some shorter. The important thing is to get the points out there. And then allow nature, God, Christ, or whatever to take it's course.
That is what Christ did.
He talked to their souls, and not to their minds.

[silverblk mystix]

All we are asking is to try. People will be people. You cannot have unrealistic expectations of them. You just have to do the best you can and then let it sink in. Some people take longer, some shorter. The important thing is to get the points out there. And then allow nature, God, Christ, or whatever to take it's course.
That is what Christ did.
He talked to their souls, and not to their minds.


Yes, and they really wanted the truth so badly that they crucified him lol

[HI-FI]

Actually Chump shares his cubicle with two others also. I busted him a few months ago when I was exposed to a Government paid poster back when Alex Jones was trying to post pics of the Boston Bombings. I thought it was just another conspiracy that the Government hires computer geeks to monitor and post at various websites.

So I did some research I noted the times and dates when Chump and Blake were online it only left 2 hours a day for sleep.

Also the style of posting was different. Not to mention the Blake #2 and Chump #3 had no idea of the conversations we had earlier.

Now that I know about this I wait until Chump #2 or Blake #1 is online before I engage in any conversations with them.

http://consciouslifenews.com/paid-internet-shill-shadowy-groups-manipulate-internet-opinion-debate/1147073/



UWZirX4pFRc
interesting. what about boutons_deux, has to be some astroturfing there....or that dude really is that annoying and brainwashed.

[mouse]

interesting. what about boutons_deux, has to be some astroturfing there....or that dude really is that annoying and brainwashed.

Excellent points.

The truth is who isn't a TRoll these days? I know that going in. It doesn't bother me to have multiple persons using multiple screen names I stand by my opinions / arguments all over the www and Facebook not to mention the MIT forums. I can take on Blake #32 and Chump #35 my shits legit I did the research.

It makes the debate so much easier.

[Skull-1]

Yes, and they really wanted the truth so badly that they crucified him lol

Bingo.

[xmas1997]

Yes, and they really wanted the truth so badly that they crucified him lol

:lol
Makes one wonder if He was in the wrong place at the wrong time!
Obviously Christ's detractors couldn't take a joke! :lol
No offense meant, but the Jews were really anal back then.
But hell, you don't fuck with Israel now either!

[silverblk mystix]

:lol
Makes one wonder if He was in the wrong place at the wrong time!
Obviously Christ's detractors couldn't take a joke! :lol
No offense meant, but the Jews were really anal back then.
But hell, you don't fuck with Israel now either!


Like I said - people hate truth.

[xmas1997]

Like I said - people hate truth.

I had no idea that chump, or Blake, were more than one person.

[mouse]

I had no idea that chump, or Blake, were more than one person.

do the research...

[silverblk mystix]

I had no idea that chump, or Blake, were more than one person.

What does this have to do with truth? With Christ?

[mouse]

What does this have to do with truth? With Christ?

___________^ this person makes a point. (not to take sides)

[xmas1997]

What does this have to do with truth? With Christ?

Absolutely nothing at all. I was surprised and forgot which thread I was on.

[mouse]

Absolutely nothing at all. I was surprised and forgot which thread I was on.

______^ has happened to me ..so he deserves a pass! (in my opinion)

[Skull-1]

Like I said - people hate truth.


Xmas is a crafty troll, I will give him points for trying...

[Skull-1]

What does this have to do with truth? With Christ?Not a f'ing thing.

[mouse]

click if you believe in Djavo
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222633&page=4

[xmas1997]

Xmas is a crafty troll, I will give him points for trying...

Thanks for the points.
I just sincerely wanted to share knowledge and experiences.
I hold you no ill will whatsoever.
If you can't tell I was being sincere, then I don't know what to tell you.

[Skull-1]

You are trying too hard...

[xmas1997]

You are trying too hard...

What does that mean?
Do you have anything pertinent to say in order to make this discussion a real discussion?
Or do you just want to beat around the bush?
Why am I trying too hard?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What does that mean?
Do you have anything pertinent to say in order to make this discussion a real discussion?
Or do you just want to beat around the bush?
Why am I trying too hard?

You are trying to be reasonable with someone that is clearly not.

Assuming for example that I am correct and that he does have narcissistic personality disorder. His ego will not allow him to admit that he can be incorrect. Instead you have to be the one at fault. You are the troll. You are the one being unreasonable. You are trying too hard.

He is either a troll or an emotional cripple. Either way, there is little point to your approach.

[DMC]

John 1, Jesus refers to himself as God, clearly OT Jew God.

Referring to oneself as God doesn't make one God.

[xmas1997]

You are trying to be reasonable with someone that is clearly not.

Assuming for example that I am correct and that he does have narcissistic personality disorder. His ego will not allow him to admit that he can be incorrect. Instead you have to be the one at fault. You are the troll. You are the one being unreasonable. You are trying too hard.

He is either a troll or an emotional cripple. Either way, there is little point to your approach.

Well I tried in all sincerity to get him to open up and share with us his knowledge and experiences, but he chose to play what I call mind games instead.
I give up. I will not make that mistake with him again. He accused me of being a troll a crafty one at that, and made me play his riddle game.
That is not a discussion, that is a silly game. There are many people out there who try to play games with people's minds, but have nothing concrete to share.
I was sincerely trying, but for whatever reason he chose not to. I can only surmise that maybe he really has nothing to say. That is a pity.
That is not Christ like at all, in fact it is anti-Christ like, because Christ did not see enemies everywhere He looked, rather He tried to explain His teachings as He also rebuked His detractors like the scholars of the times, the Pharisees, and He admonished the tax collectors, and money changers in the temple.
I will not make this mistake again with skull.
I put forth the olive branch with an open heart and mind and he rejected it.
Now skull has only God to answer for not spreading God's message.
I refuse to judge. I will not go so far as to accuse for sure that he has nothing to say because it may be that he is just selfish and wants to keep his info to himself or that he is ashamed because he cannot explain what he knows in a coherent manner. Whatever the case he does not want divulge what he knows, provided he knows anything at all. He claims he does, but his claims lack substance so he can't be taken seriously.
What a shame, and what a waste of effort on my part.
You are probably right about him, fuzzy, I am sorry to admit, delusions of grandeur.

[Blake]

Referring to oneself as God doesn't make one God.

well no.

But i really am God.

[Blake]

Like I said - people hate truth.

I don't. But you hating the truth would explain why you lie and contradict yourself so often.

[DMC]

well no.

But i really am God.

No, I am that I am.

[silverblk mystix]

I don't. But you hating the truth would explain why you lie and contradict yourself so often.


I gave you truth many times and each time you played games and resorted to name calling and nonsense.

Guess you just lied too.

[Blake]

I gave you truth many times and each time you played games and resorted to name calling and nonsense.

Guess you just lied too.

Your pseudo enlightened truth is truth to only you, blind man.

No lie, you couldn't be a bigger hypocrite.

[Blake]

So they are even bigger losers than I originally thought - thanks!

You believe mouse? it's actually no surprise to anyone that you're that big of a blind idiot.

[silverblk mystix]

You believe mouse? it's actually no surprise to anyone that you're that big of a blind idiot.


Well, let us see...a little perspective;

In a place where being a Cuck, a troll, and a sexual deviant is considered - winning -

- I will accept your compliment - thanks!

[Blake]

Well, let us see...a little perspective;

In a place where being a Cuck, a troll, and a sexual deviant is considered - winning -

- I will accept your compliment - thanks!

You're unintelligent.

[silverblk mystix]

You're unintelligent.

Thanks again!

[Blake]

Thanks again!

Thanks for thinking you're more enlightened than everyone else here, Blindy

[silverblk mystix]

Thanks for thinking you're more enlightened than everyone else here, Blindy

For the sake of accuracy - you can say I am just less blind than you.

[Blake]

For the sake of accuracy - you can say I am just less blind than you.

for the sake of analogy - you're admittedly like Stevie Wonder calling me blind

[silverblk mystix]

for the sake of analogy - you're admittedly like Stevie Wonder calling me blind

Well, you are unintentionally correct here. This is about the state of the world right now - blind people of varying degrees - killing and destroying each other over things they have never seen and quarreling over words & concepts while never touching or experiencing reality!

Excellent - I am finally teaching you something. Good job!

[Blake]

Well, you are unintentionally correct here. This is about the state of the world right now - blind people of varying degrees - killing and destroying each other over things they have never seen and quarreling over words & concepts while never touching or experiencing reality!

Excellent - I am finally teaching you something. Good job!

Right back to your usual spiritual drivel.

Let's move on to something else:

What do you, SBM, think will happen to you when you die?

[silverblk mystix]

Right back to your usual spiritual drivel.

Let's move on to something else:

What do you, SBM, think will happen to you when you die?


Well, I died a long time ago...so it isn't relevant.

More interesting is what happens every time I live! That is what it is all about.

[Blake]

Well, I died a long time ago...so it isn't relevant.

More interesting is what happens every time I live! That is what it is all about.

so you believe in reincarnation? Or are you just tap dancing?

[silverblk mystix]

so you believe in reincarnation? Or are you just tap dancing?


I am not interested one tiny bit about what happens after - I am interested in right now. The present moment.

I do not give a shit about - nor - waste a moment of time pondering the hereafter.

I just gave you truth but I am pretty sure - you won't hear it.

[Blake]

You gave opinion. You have no idea what truth is.

You're too stupid to know simple third grade word definitions.

[xmas1997]

You gave opinion. You have no idea what truth is.

You're too stupid to know simple third grade word definitions.

If you are talking about someone in particular then you are entitled to your opinion, as is he.
To dispute over opinions however is folly, don't you think?
By the very definition of "opinion" we have only conjecture to base things on which is subjective in nature and cannot be proved, whereas "fact" is objective in nature and can be relied upon to be repetitive in a consistent manner.
Yet it is ironic how many things in life that are considered to be fact now, only to later be shown to have "exceptions" to the rule. So what indeed really is factual? :lol
If you ask me, about the only thing you can really count on to be factual is "change", IMHO. :lol

[Blake]

If you are talking about someone in particular then you are entitled to your opinion, as is he.

He stated his opinion as fact.

Keep up if you're going to play judge.

[xmas1997]

He stated his opinion as fact.

Keep up if you're going to play judge.

I wasn't playing judge, I was just leveling the playing field concerning opinions. :lol

Keep in mind, what you consider opinion, he may consider fact.
What we believe and feel inside of each of us actually determines who we are at any given moment, regardless of what anyone else feels or believes, and even regardless of the commonly shared notions of fact.
If he believes it, then for him it is quite real. Just as what you believe is real for you is real.

[Blake]

I wasn't playing judge, I was just leveling the playing field concerning opinions. :lol

Keep in mind, what you consider opinion, he may consider fact.
What we believe and feel inside of each of us actually determines who we are at any given moment, regardless of what anyone else feels or believes, and even regardless of the commonly shared notions of fact.
If he believes it, then for him it is quite real. Just as what you believe is real for you is real.

keep in mind that if you matter of factly state something is true, then you need to back it up.

If you can't, then don't cry when bullshit is called.

Plenty of threads in here where SBM has cried and melted down when called out on his bullshit.

[xmas1997]

You gave opinion. You have no idea what truth is.

You're too stupid to know simple third grade word definitions.


keep in mind that if you matter of factly state something is true, then you need to back it up.

If you can't, then don't cry when bullshit is called.

Plenty of threads in here where SBM has cried and melted down when called out on his bullshit.

Fine.
I wasn't singling anyone out.
I was referring to opinions versus facts (truth).
I quoted you because it was the last statement about opinions is all.

[Blake]

Fine.
I wasn't singling anyone out.
I was referring to opinions versus facts (truth).
I quoted you because it was the last statement about opinions is all.

I know what you were doing. I'm just helping you get up to speed on how a discussion/debate works.

[xmas1997]

I've been reading.
But thanks.

[silverblk mystix]

You gave opinion. You have no idea what truth is.

You're too stupid to know simple third grade word definitions.

Reduced again to an angry name caller.

I feel for you.

[xmas1997]

If he is just here to ridicule etc. then that is his agenda and how he gets his kicks.
The best way to handle that is if someone were to find those actions offensive, to not respond to his posts IMHO.
However I usually try to give the benefit of the doubt, and let it all lay out there.
Then if they persist in wanting to argue, rather than question, then I quit responding to their questions.
We each are on different parts of our own particular paths. His may be leading him to different truths than mine is all.

[Blake]

Reduced again to an angry name caller.

I feel for you

I didn't melt down in calling you stupid. If you can't properly use the simple term truth, I'm justified in calling you an idiot.

Seriously though, I'm impressed that you've actually had enough self control in this thread to not call me a cuck. Pat yourself on the back. :tu

[silverblk mystix]

I didn't melt down in calling you stupid. If you can't properly use the simple term truth, I'm justified in calling you an idiot.

Seriously though, I'm impressed that you've actually had enough self control in this thread to not call me a cuck. Pat yourself on the back. :tu


since when is -truth- a simple term?

truth is something you know little of

insults are all you know

[Blake]

since when is -truth- a simple term?

truth is something you know little of

insults are all you know

Truth in this case is a simple term. If you are going to claim you have truth, then you prove it.

But you won't. Stupidity + insults + meltdowns are all you are here.

[silverblk mystix]

Truth in this case is a simple term. If you are going to claim you have truth, then you prove it.

But you won't. Stupidity + insults + meltdowns are all you are here.

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt - because we seemed to have someone in here (xmas) that was trying to have an adult discussion or a gentleman's discussion - so I have been all business.

Is it impossible for you to do this?

What truth did I claim. I said that I gave you a truthful answer - I did. It is the only way I can answer. What was untruthful about it?

Where did I make a claim?

Or what are you referring to?

If you are unable to stay in the spirit of the thread- then say so - you can insult others for a change.

[silverblk mystix]

If he is just here to ridicule etc. then that is his agenda and how he gets his kicks.
The best way to handle that is if someone were to find those actions offensive, to not respond to his posts IMHO.
However I usually try to give the benefit of the doubt, and let it all lay out there.
Then if they persist in wanting to argue, rather than question, then I quit responding to their questions.
We each are on different parts of our own particular paths. His may be leading him to different truths than mine is all.


Question for you;

Have I insulted anyone in this thread?

I appreciate you trying to stay above the stupidity and have tried to be all business. Did I insult anyone in this thread?

[xmas1997]

:lol
You are asking me?
All I can say to that is go back and read your posts, especially the ones to Blake, or to maybe skull.
You tell me if you've been insulting.
For the most part you've been discussing because this is a discussion, at least I think it is.
I don't want to get into casting stones.
But I also think no one can be a harsher judge of our own actions and words than we ourselves can. We are our own worst critic, as they say (whoever "they" are). :lol
But it really depends on your perspective.
As my grandfather used to tell me, "one persons' poison is another persons' pie". :lol

In another way to look at the Paul issue and why I think he was the most mystical of all the others is because of his background, his roots as the first and only gentile Apostle. He brought a completely different perspective to the table not grounded in Jewish law. Plus he had to be physically blinded in order to reverse his agenda. My guess is this experience was a lot deeper than what meets the eye and on such a personal level that that deeper mystical experience was kept hidden.
As you mention he was the farthest departure from Jesus, and not even Jewish, yet all the others accepted him with no problems. That alone tells me there was a lot more going on beneath the surface than what we read in Bible.
I Am That I Am

[silverblk mystix]

:lol
You are asking me?
All I can say to that is go back and read your posts, especially the ones to Blake, or to maybe skull.
You tell me if you've been insulting.
For the most part you've been discussing because this is a discussion, at least I think it is.
I don't want to get into casting stones.
But I also think no one can be a harsher judge of our own actions and words than we ourselves can. We are our own worst critic, as they say (whoever "they" are). :lol
But it really depends on your perspective.
As my grandfather used to tell me, "one persons' poison is another persons' pie". :lol

In another way to look at the Paul issue and why I think he was the most mystical of all the others is because of his background, his roots as the first and only gentile Apostle. He brought a completely different perspective to the table not grounded in Jewish law. Plus he had to be physically blinded in order to reverse his agenda. My guess is this experience was a lot deeper than what meets the eye and on such a personal level that that deeper mystical experience was kept hidden.
As you mention he was the farthest departure from Jesus, and not even Jewish, yet all the others accepted him with no problems. That alone tells me there was a lot more going on beneath the surface than what we read in Bible.
I Am That I Am

It isn't that complicated.

You tried to keep things civil - I told you directly that I admired your effort and stayed true to the spirit of the thread.

If you choose not to answer - fair enough.

I have not insulted anyone in this thread as I feel it is a worthwhile thread - but I can see - that won't be possible to expect the same out of others.

Thanks.

[xmas1997]

It isn't that complicated.

You tried to keep things civil - I told you directly that I admired your effort and stayed true to the spirit of the thread.

If you choose not to answer - fair enough.

I have not insulted anyone in this thread as I feel it is a worthwhile thread - but I can see - that won't be possible to expect the same out of others.

Thanks.

It might be better to just ignore the jabs of others in the higher interests of this subject.
That is what I am trying to do.
I tried to get skull to open up and share, but he just wanted to play "riddle me this" so I finally had to just let it go.
I'm not really sure where he is coming from, or if he even knows himself.
But that is ok too, if he wants to share he will, if not, so be it.
Blake seems sincere, but every now and again I get the impression he wants to quibble over minor issues and that he doesn't examine the gray areas which make up the vast majority of this subject IMHO.
The quest for enlightenment means not limiting oneself to any book, teaching, or point of view IMHO.
Everything must be examined and meditated on, allowed to sit and cook, and then reexamined.
What is unclear at one point of the path, may become clear at another point. Some things just need to cook for a while.
To my way of thinking you cannot study a book like the Bible, or the Torah, Quran, or especially the Kabala and teachings of the Druids or Wiccan without meditating and suspending reality as best you can.
Thus to think these books can ONLY be read in a literal sense is tantamount to being naive IMHO.
And When discussing such controversial subjects like this I have to constantly use the "IMHO" tag just to maintain civility, and so as to not lead astray. :lol
IMHO even agnosticism is pertinent and leads to deeper discoveries.
I try not to leave any stone unturned, and at the same time resist the temptation to cast them at people just because I perceive something they say to be ignorant or flaming, thus giving the benefit of the doubt.
If I look at things in a more humorous way then it becomes easier to do, and makes me feel good at the same time! :lol

[silverblk mystix]

It might be better to just ignore the jabs of others in the higher interests of this subject.
That is what I am trying to do.
I tried to get skull to open up and share, but he just wanted to play "riddle me this" so I finally had to just let it go.
I'm not really sure where he is coming from, or if he even knows himself.
But that is ok too, if he wants to share he will, if not, so be it.
Blake seems sincere, but every now and again I get the impression he wants to quibble over minor issues and that he doesn't examine the gray areas which make up the vast majority of this subject IMHO.
The quest for enlightenment means not limiting oneself to any book, teaching, or point of view IMHO.
Everything must be examined and meditated on, allowed to sit and cook, and then reexamined.
What is unclear at one point of the path, may become clear at another point. Some things just need to cook for a while.
To my way of thinking you cannot study a book like the Bible, or the Torah, Quran, or especially the Kabala and teachings of the Druids or Wiccan without meditating and suspending reality as best you can.
Thus to think these books can ONLY be read in a literal sense is tantamount to being naive IMHO.
And When discussing such controversial subjects like this I have to constantly use the "IMHO" tag just to maintain civility, and so as to not lead astray. :lol
IMHO even agnosticism is pertinent and leads to deeper discoveries.
I try not to leave any stone unturned, and at the same time resist the temptation to cast them at people just because I perceive something they say to be ignorant or flaming, thus giving the benefit of the doubt.
If I look at things in a more humorous way then it becomes easier to do, and makes me feel good at the same time! :lol

Agree with a lot of this with one or two exceptions - but it leads to the same place - just taking a different route.

Truth/god/enlightenment/love/reality - IMO - are not really things you acquire - or "attain"

Those things are more like a state we sometimes can enter - either accidentally - or by some universal grace - or some consequence of being aware of the present reality - and then we fall back into human ... consciousness - or worse - go back to sleep - until the next ...glimpse.

You won't find me discussing or debating the bible - in itself - or quotes, passages, information from it and arguing about the meaning of it - because - like religion - it becomes something more important than god/love/reality - when in fact it was probably meant to lead you closer to god - it ends up leading you down a "worship" state -

Love before worship - IMO.

[xmas1997]

Agree with a lot of this with one or two exceptions - but it leads to the same place - just taking a different route.

Truth/god/enlightenment/love/reality - IMO - are not really things you acquire - or "attain"

Those things are more like a state we sometimes can enter - either accidentally - or by some universal grace - or some consequence of being aware of the present reality - and then we fall back into human ... consciousness - or worse - go back to sleep - until the next ...glimpse.

You won't find me discussing or debating the bible - in itself - or quotes, passages, information from it and arguing about the meaning of it - because - like religion - it becomes something more important than god/love/reality - when in fact it was probably meant to lead you closer to god - it ends up leading you down a "worship" state -

Love before worship - IMO.

Actually I agree with you, especially the love before worship. I do disagree on being able to attain or acquire, but that is ok
I can respect your feelings on the pathways or states to get there.
In fact your ideas on it maybe explain why Paul was the way he was, in that he would occasionally fall back out of his blissful state.
He reminds me of the old adage of being a greater critic about himself than any of those he rebuked. It well be that he was talking about himself and his own insecurities and inadequacies in order to rebuke himself. He may even have been feeling quite ashamed for his earlier persecutions and it was his way of penance.
But who knows? That was a mind fart if there ever was one! :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I love Snufflupagus.

[silverblk mystix]

Actually I agree with you, especially the love before worship. I do disagree on being able to attain or acquire, but that is ok
I can respect your feelings on the pathways or states to get there.
In fact your ideas on it maybe explain why Paul was the way he was, in that he would occasionally fall back out of his blissful state.
He reminds me of the old adage of being a greater critic about himself than any of those he rebuked. It well be that he was talking about himself and his own insecurities and inadequacies in order to rebuke himself. He may even have been feeling quite ashamed for his earlier persecutions and it was his way of penance.
But who knows? That was a mind fart if there ever was one! :lol


Well, the reason for my opinion on not "attaining" grace/enlightenment/love/god whatever -

is that greed enters the picture - yes - even spiritual greed is greed. You are ambitious about attaining enlightenment? You lose your way - and fall out of "awareness" and enter into longing, ambition, greed, etc...

Truth can be sighted suddenly or gradually - but if your heart is hardened by ambition and/or greed - it won't be truth you discover IMO - it will be something else...

If one can be open to all things present to his senses - without excluding anything - or judging anything - or "labeling" it - and you attain this posture without trying to change it or alter it or grasp it or hold on to it - you are most definitely a "candidate" to receive some truth - if there is some truth waiting to reveal itself.

It is the very rare individual who is able to even grasp a tiny bit of this truth - because they are too busy "trying" or "judging" or hoping for something or aspiring to something greater - and truth goes on its way to wherever it temporarily goes...

How many see present reality in its fresh present state without falling back on their programming/conditioning to label and judge what they are seeing? Can you see what is before you through the eyes of an infant - but with the intelligence of the formed brain? Most can see through their concepts - their formulas - their conditioning - but since they already "know" they cannot see it simultaneously - through the eyes of the child/infant. These things get in the way when interpreting "reality" -"reality-right now-this present moment"

Not reality - as filtered through your programming/conditioning/experiences/memory/habits - but reality as in - it is going on right now - this very second and I am watching it as if it were the very first time - freshness.

Another world altogether...IMO.

[xmas1997]

Well, the reason for my opinion on not "attaining" grace/enlightenment/love/god whatever -

is that greed enters the picture - yes - even spiritual greed is greed. You are ambitious about attaining enlightenment? You lose your way - and fall out of "awareness" and enter into longing, ambition, greed, etc...

Truth can be sighted suddenly or gradually - but if your heart is hardened by ambition and/or greed - it won't be truth you discover IMO - it will be something else...

If one can be open to all things present to his senses - without excluding anything - or judging anything - or "labeling" it - and you attain this posture without trying to change it or alter it or grasp it or hold on to it - you are most definitely a "candidate" to receive some truth - if there is some truth waiting to reveal itself.

It is the very rare individual who is able to even grasp a tiny bit of this truth - because they are too busy "trying" or "judging" or hoping for something or aspiring to something greater - and truth goes on its way to wherever it temporarily goes...

How many see present reality in its fresh present state without falling back on their programming/conditioning to label and judge what they are seeing? Can you see what is before you through the eyes of an infant - but with the intelligence of the formed brain? Most can see through their concepts - their formulas - their conditioning - but since they already "know" they cannot see it simultaneously - through the eyes of the child/infant. These things get in the way when interpreting "reality" -"reality-right now-this present moment"

Not reality - as filtered through your programming/conditioning/experiences/memory/habits - but reality as in - it is going on right now - this very second and I am watching it as if it were the very first time - freshness.

Another world altogether...IMO.

Wow. I completely agree with you.
Freshness.
I see your point about greed. I agree. Greed can certainly spoil a good dose of grace. Been there, done that. :lol
The hope is that we can learn from our mistakes in order to allow the grace to open us up to our full potential and awareness in Christ, rather than our ambitions to getting more, and thus getting in our own way, sabotaging our own efforts.
What it may boil down to is reexamining our motivations. And if the motivation is based in love then we enter enlightenment through a sustainable force.
I think you are right about preconceived notions too, they do hinder us. That is another reason that it takes so long. Not only doubts, fears, worries, etc., get in our way, but so does prior programming such as you mention.

But once we've reached this state of "freshness" there can be no mistaking it, you are truly one with all that there is.
The key possibly is love. With love as your vehicle then you can resist the temptation of greed, to grasp for more than you are capable of understanding at any one point, resist your temptation to label. Since time and space fall away, an ever present now exists and you experience truth as truth truly is and not how you envision it to be.
In that state you can do whatever needs to be done, or realize, rather than what you want to be done, or think you want to realize, simply because the all knowing essence of you requires it of you, and not because you have your own selfish agenda.
I truly think you have hit the nail on the head in your assessment.
If so, then it becomes necessary for you to begin the process of housecleaning your spiritual essence so that you are able to live in that state of grace indefinitely, be the Christ as Christ is you.
What better purpose is there for you to do?
Once there, and in full awareness that you are, and fully maintained, then the whole concept of life may take on a more inclusive meaning.
The key is probably love. However, that purity of love may not be that simple to achieve.
But it is possible, and I believe sustainable.

[ismael-robert]

I haven't been keeping up but before I left I did see that xmas asked me this question:
If God is all-knowing why did He create Satan whom He knew would fall?
At the risk of sounding flippant, why not? For what reason or reasons should God have not created the devil even if he was going to fall? Just because God knows what will happen doesn't mean that the person (or angel) isn't free to make choices. Satan freely chose to rebel against God. God knew this would happen. Nevertheless, let me offer some possible reasons why God would create Satan even though He knew he would fall and rebel.
1.It was necessary to have the fall so that God could then have a reason to die for our sins thereby demonstrating that God can and does provide the greatest act of love which is to lay down one's life for his friend (John 15:13).
2.The fall of Satan provides yet another method for God to be glorified in that God can use sin to prove that sin is "bad" and that God's Word about righteousness is true.
3.If God is to have creatures with free will, then the risk of rebellion is part of that freedom. Satan had that freedom and used it to rebel.
4.If God had not created Satan and instead another angel fell, then we'd be asking why God made that angel knowing he would fall.
5.God has reasons about which we know nothing.

I know my children will act badly at times, but knowing that does not mean mean that I shouldn't have kids. Part of the risk of freedom is that rebellion will be a reality.

[ismael-robert]

Second, I saw you said works of other faiths weren't works of Satan. If Judiaism is original faith, and the death and blood of Christ is the only perfect thing that can atone for our sins in order to be in the presence of a perfect, holy God...then anything that gets in the way of receiving said atonement and in the way of our developing the relationship between ourselves and said God then it is something that works to Satan's favor. There are great science books that help explain how God's earth functions and the body etc and those are fine as long as they leave people in awe of creation and not thinking oh that could've happened by random chance and they move further from faith.
In skulls defense I know one reason why he has the attitude he does. He can tell there are people here that will never accept or receive faith/truth. Their sole purpose is to refute, criticize, etc. The Bible teaches there are people in this world who even if God stared them in the face they would still spit at him or throw a fist at Him...even faced with Hell they would never repent...they are just incapable and totally depraved and thus skull realizes he is just wasting his time.

[ismael-robert]

Now I'll probably disappear for a while for yall to debate that again lol

[Blake]

If God is love, why would he create both the devil and hell knowing that he would throw him in later.

[xmas1997]

I haven't been keeping up but before I left I did see that xmas asked me this question:
If God is all-knowing why did He create Satan whom He knew would fall?
At the risk of sounding flippant, why not? For what reason or reasons should God have not created the devil even if he was going to fall? Just because God knows what will happen doesn't mean that the person (or angel) isn't free to make choices. Satan freely chose to rebel against God. God knew this would happen. Nevertheless, let me offer some possible reasons why God would create Satan even though He knew he would fall and rebel.
1.It was necessary to have the fall so that God could then have a reason to die for our sins thereby demonstrating that God can and does provide the greatest act of love which is to lay down one's life for his friend (John 15:13).
2.The fall of Satan provides yet another method for God to be glorified in that God can use sin to prove that sin is "bad" and that God's Word about righteousness is true.
3.If God is to have creatures with free will, then the risk of rebellion is part of that freedom. Satan had that freedom and used it to rebel.
4.If God had not created Satan and instead another angel fell, then we'd be asking why God made that angel knowing he would fall.
5.God has reasons about which we know nothing.

I know my children will act badly at times, but knowing that does not mean mean that I shouldn't have kids. Part of the risk of freedom is that rebellion will be a reality.

That was not me, Ismael. I would never pose a question like that to you or to anyone else.
But I am really glad to see you back. And your answer to whoever posed it is excellent. I agree.
Once you catch up, you will see we are finally having a decent discussion, well most of us anyway, once you wade through the dross of ridicule that keeps rearing it's ugly head.
Even skull is contributing now in his own odd way.
I honestly like where this thread is finally going.
Most of us are being civil.
And most of us are allowing for differing opinions without resorting to ridicule, or at least trying to resist.
Ismael, you bring up some very intriguing points as to why there is satan and Gods purpose for having him.

[Blake]

There are great science books that help explain how God's earth functions and the body etc and those are fine as long as they leave people in awe of creation and not thinking oh that could've happened by random chance and they move further from faith.

How old do you believe the earth is? The universe?

[silverblk mystix]

Wow. I completely agree with you.
Freshness.
I see your point about greed. I agree. Greed can certainly spoil a good dose of grace. Been there, done that. :lol
The hope is that we can learn from our mistakes in order to allow the grace to open us up to our full potential and awareness in Christ, rather than our ambitions to getting more, and thus getting in our own way, sabotaging our own efforts.
What it may boil down to is reexamining our motivations. And if the motivation is based in love then we enter enlightenment through a sustainable force.
I think you are right about preconceived notions too, they do hinder us. That is another reason that it takes so long. Not only doubts, fears, worries, etc., get in our way, but so does prior programming such as you mention.

But once we've reached this state of "freshness" there can be no mistaking it, you are truly one with all that there is.
The key possibly is love. With love as your vehicle then you can resist the temptation of greed, to grasp for more than you are capable of understanding at any one point, resist your temptation to label. Since time and space fall away, an ever present now exists and you experience truth as truth truly is and not how you envision it to be.
In that state you can do whatever needs to be done, or realize, rather than what you want to be done, or think you want to realize, simply because the all knowing essence of you requires it of you, and not because you have your own selfish agenda.
I truly think you have hit the nail on the head in your assessment.
If so, then it becomes necessary for you to begin the process of housecleaning your spiritual essence so that you are able to live in that state of grace indefinitely, be the Christ as Christ is you.
What better purpose is there for you to do?
Once there, and in full awareness that you are, and fully maintained, then the whole concept of life may take on a more inclusive meaning.
The key is probably love. However, that purity of love may not be that simple to achieve.
But it is possible, and I believe sustainable.


Well said.

All I would add is that this is not new information - it has been there staring us in the face for ages - and also - this is not a process of addition - it is one of subtraction.

IMO & in my journey it has come to light that most seekers think they need to ADD something....to reality. More holiness, more meditation, more spirituality, more god, more love, more more more....more prayer, etc...

Yet subtraction - might be the way.

Less effort, less judging, less opinions, get rid of programming, get rid of conditioning to be able to see again, get rid of desires that may prevent you from seeing clearly, die to the NEED for things/people/god (yes - get rid of the NEED for god - because - how can you love something you need and/or crave?) (you can only truly love something when you are free from the need/craving for it - this way you are loving it without the need to manipulate it to attain it.)

but I digress...

Subtracting the things that are a barrier/filter to reality. If you want to get anywhere near reality - you need to see. You need to perceive clearly and respond appropriately to the present reality - & only by subtracting the filters/barriers that are skewing your view can you see clearly.

Subtraction.

Only then might you be able to directly touch this "love" "god" and truly experience a glimpse of reality - even if only briefly - get to take a peek of a mystery of the universe.

[xmas1997]

Well said.

All I would add is that this is not new information - it has been there staring us in the face for ages - and also - this is not a process of addition - it is one of subtraction.

IMO & in my journey it has come to light that most seekers think they need to ADD something....to reality. More holiness, more meditation, more spirituality, more god, more love, more more more....more prayer, etc...

Yet subtraction - might be the way.

Less effort, less judging, less opinions, get rid of programming, get rid of conditioning to be able to see again, get rid of desires that may prevent you from seeing clearly, die to the NEED for things/people/god (yes - get rid of the NEED for god - because - how can you love something you need and/or crave?) (you can only truly love something when you are free from the need/craving for it - this way you are loving it without the need to manipulate it to attain it.)

but I digress...

Subtracting the things that are a barrier/filter to reality. If you want to get anywhere near reality - you need to see. You need to perceive clearly and respond appropriately to the present reality - & only by subtracting the filters/barriers that are skewing your view can you see clearly.

Subtraction.

Only then might you be able to directly touch this "love" "god" and truly experience a glimpse of reality - even if only briefly - get to take a peek of a mystery of the universe.

Yes, I am right there with you on subtraction.
Addition was needed at first in order for us to even begin to understand order.
But eventually we reach full circle and must begin to subtract all that we have built up in order for real truth to have a vessel to fill.
I honestly think we are on to something here.
I read the other posters and see their contentiousness and wonder if only they quit their arguing and spend an iota of their time then they might fill in the gaps, but so far same ol same ol.
These truths are truly for the "few" IMHO because the majority waste time arguing. That is sad.
But there must be a higher reason this type of bickering goes on.
It isn't new either, it's partially responsible for more than half the wars on this planet all through the ages.
You keep saying that one most probably can only catch glimpses.
Do you think it is possible to be one and the same with God, the universe, Christ in complete awareness of an ever present sustainable now, and still be aware of the material parts of existence?
Because I assume that is what Jesus was able to do. In other words he was able to exist within the bigger picture while also functioning quite ably in the material realms in order to get the message across.

[silverblk mystix]

Yes, I am right there with you on subtraction.
Addition was needed at first in order for us to even begin to understand order.
But eventually we reach full circle and must begin to subtract all that we have built up in order for real truth to have a vessel to fill.
I honestly think we are on to something here.
I read the other posters and see their contentiousness and wonder if only they quit their arguing and spend an iota of their time then they might fill in the gaps, but so far same ol same ol.
These truths are truly for the "few" IMHO because the majority waste time arguing. That is sad.
But there must be a higher reason this type of bickering goes on.
It isn't new either, it's partially responsible for more than half the wars on this planet all through the ages.
You keep saying that one most probably can only catch glimpses.
Do you think it is possible to be one and the same with God, the universe, Christ in complete awareness of an ever present sustainable now, and still be aware of the material parts of existence?
Because I assume that is what Jesus was able to do. In other words he was able to exist within the bigger picture while also functioning quite ably in the material realms in order to get the message across.

Interesting question - about the "glimpse"...hmmm...

Are you familiar with the Dancer & the Dance?

It was reportedly said that God said to St. Catherine of Siena - "I am he who is - you are she who is not"

Just what would - "is-not ness" be like?

In the east they have a saying - or an image - relating to this - (I am a little rusty - so humor me here...)

The Dancer and the Dance...where God is viewed as the Dancer and Creation - as the dance. But - you think you are the little dancer to god's big dancer - but this is where the "is-not-ness" comes in lol

No - You are not a dancer at all - you are being danced!

It isn't to say you don't exist - or you are less - as some might translate - it is just a hint - of the universe or creation or reality or whatever - is just being danced by god - and we are all just being danced - we aren't really dancers...lol

A little different angle - I know - but this is what struck me when you asked if it was possible to be one and the same with god/love/reality -

could it be any other way?

I personally don't believe so. But - whose to say?

[xmas1997]

Actually I believe we are one and the same with God, but like you and I discussed earlier we get in the way of realizing it.
The subtraction rather than addition may be our best hope of not repeating this vicious cycle.
But to rationalize it may not allow us to gain the sought after result, because it puts right back into preconceived notions again.
It may well be that the only way to truly know truth for the sake of truth alone and not due to any of our baser motivations, may be through the same sort of mystical revelation that converted Paul.
And if that is the case then we may be in for a very long wait.
I sincerely hope I am wrong about that.
I do think we need to be that aware for the sake of the Father, for His love.
But can we ever fully rid or subtract ourselves of ourselves in order to fill ourselves with the truth of God?
it sounds like the rational course of action, but just because it is so rational, doesn't that also mean that it is the wrong course because it presupposes preconceived notions?
We may be making this much harder than it really is too.
There is the parable of the mustard seed to consider and the power of faith, the faith of a child that you mentioned earlier.
It all may be just that simple and our conditioning is just making it all harder.
Much to meditate and ponder over.

[silverblk mystix]

Actually I believe we are one and the same with God, but like you and I discussed earlier we get in the way of realizing it.
The subtraction rather than addition may be our best hope of not repeating this vicious cycle.
But to rationalize it may not allow us to gain the sought after result, because it puts right back into preconceived notions again.
It may well be that the only way to truly know truth for the sake of truth alone and not due to any of our baser motivations, may be through the same sort of mystical revelation that converted Paul.
And if that is the case then we may be in for a very long wait.
I sincerely hope I am wrong about that.
I do think we need to be that aware for the sake of the Father, for His love.
But can we ever fully rid or subtract ourselves of ourselves in order to fill ourselves with the truth of God?
it sounds like the rational course of action, but just because it is so rational, doesn't that also mean that it is the wrong course because it presupposes preconceived notions?
We may be making this much harder than it really is too.
There is the parable of the mustard seed to consider and the power of faith, the faith of a child that you mentioned earlier.
It all may be just that simple and our conditioning is just making it all harder.
Much to meditate and ponder over.


Just throwing out something to ponder on...


This might be why some - like Aquinas - go silent.

Those who say - they do not know - those who know they do not say.

Maybe when one finally sees - it is something that cannot be put into words or formulas - or conceptualized.

Just silence.

[xmas1997]

True. Plus silence does not draw attention because there is no motivation to make a grandiose spectacle of it or of yourself.

But this is one of the reasons behind my refusal to use scripture to prove anything of what I've said of my own personal experiences.

[Blake]

Those who say - they do not know - those who know they do not say.

Maybe when one finally sees - it is something that cannot be put into words or formulas - or conceptualized.

Just silence.

lol trying to be deep.

Why would anyone selfishly keep truth about the universe to themselves. That makes no sense.

[silverblk mystix]

lol trying to be deep.

Why would anyone selfishly keep truth about the universe to themselves. That makes no sense.


As you see above - adults are enjoying a respectful conversation.

Here you come in with your lol...lol

This all you have to contribute?

[Blake]

As you see above - adults are enjoying a respectful conversation.

Here you come in with your lol...lol

This all you have to contribute?

lol adults

You'll be calling me names shortly, hypocrite.

[silverblk mystix]

lol adults

You'll be calling me names shortly, hypocrite.


You can read the last page and decide if it is something that you could contribute to and share your knowledge - it was a rare occurrence - but it can happen.

Of course - this doesn't seem to be what you are capable of doing for some reason. If you are not in a little bitching contest - you don't know how to act.

Your choice. Be happy to discuss like adults.

Be happy to NOT discuss like adults.

[Blake]

....you don't know how to act.

Be happy to NOT discuss like adults.

So you whine about me being mean but you're happy to be mean back.

Damn you're an unintelligent, weak hypocrite.

[silverblk mystix]

So you whine about me being mean but you're happy to be mean back.

Damn you're an unintelligent, weak hypocrite.


yup....right back to this...


glad I didn't waste my time answering or responding to your statement/question regarding silence

[Blake]

yup....right back to this...


glad I didn't waste my time answering or responding to your statement/question regarding silence

Glad you spent your time whining about me instead of proving your claim of truth.

You're stupid.

[silverblk mystix]

Glad you spent your time whining about me instead of proving your claim of truth.

You're stupid.

Yet, I am always able to reduce you to an angry name caller - too easy.

[mouse]

silverblk mystix makes greats points but the truth is he is not new to ST and surely he must know by now Blake is going to be Blake.

Depending ob course which Blake is in the cubicle at the government leased warehouse these paid shills are employed at when your talking to him.

With that said for any of you that forgot what the original topic is....


Evidence For God - Answers for Atheists and Agnostics

[Blake]

Yet, I am always able to reduce you to an angry name caller - too easy.

nobody believes that.

[Blake]

silverblk mystix makes greats points but the truth is he is not new to ST and surely he must know by now Blake is going to be Blake.

Depending ob course which Blake is in the cubicle at the government leased warehouse these paid shills are employed at when your talking to him.

Why wouldn't i be able to work from home?




With that said for any of you that forgot what the original topic is....


Evidence For God - Answers for Atheists and Agnostics

Haven't forgotten. Still waiting for evidence.

[mouse]

Why wouldn't i be able to work from home?

Your right I left out that factor. I wish you could have said something 3,400 topics earlier.



Haven't forgotten. Still waiting for evidence.

look in the mirror how else did you get here?

[Blake]

look in the mirror how else did you get here?

Not sure. I'm leaning toward random chance.

[xmas1997]

silverblk mystix makes greats points but the truth is he is not new to ST and surely he must know by now Blake is going to be Blake.

Depending ob course which Blake is in the cubicle at the government leased warehouse these paid shills are employed at when your talking to him.

With that said for any of you that forgot what the original topic is....


Evidence For God - Answers for Atheists and Agnostics

I didn't forget.
But I was wondering which Blake I am responding to, #5 or #3 or who?
And which Blake is posting now, the head Blake? How do you tell them apart?
How do you tell the chumps apart too?

[ismael-robert]

It was God's love for Lucifer that He created Him in the first place. It was God's love for him that he gave him a free will/freedom of choice. The article pretty much answers with a real world scenario. You know as a future parent you're going to love your children...you know one of them may rebel and leave the family and never return...you create them anyways.
I don't have a stance on age of the earth...I can see the evidence for an old earth and then creation scientists have flipped all that evidence on its head and shown how we could have a young earth so I'm torn...either position doesn't discredit Genesis cause it could be literal, it could leave out millions of years that lapsed between each day so then it's just an account of the order in which things happened, and it could be metaphorical. A movie I saw called the Genesis Code showed how Genesis and the old earth theory actually agree.

[Blake]

I didn't forget.
But I was wondering which Blake I am responding to, #5 or #3 or who?
And which Blake is posting now, the head Blake? How do you tell them apart?
How do you tell the chumps apart too?

What number mouse troll are you?
Weren't you just asking why people ridicule each other here?

[Blake]

It was God's love for Lucifer that He created Him in the first place. It was God's love for him that he gave him a free will/freedom of choice.

It was God's love that he decided to create a place of eternal torment for Lucifer.

[xmas1997]

What number mouse troll are you?
Weren't you just asking why people ridicule each other here?

Yes, that was why I wanted to know which Blake I was talking to.
That is not an unreasonable request or an offense.
I like to know which person I am talking to when it is more than one person is all.