Blast from Past: Ginobili in 03

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8zhDrzorXs

33-12-7.

check out 1:30 to see Kobe's defense skills

Carry on :toast

[RD2191]

Damn, Manu was a beast.

[Leetonidas]

I miss that mofo. :depressed It's sad to see what he is now compared to what he used to be. He'll always be my 2nd favorite player though. I'll never forget that 48 points he hung on the Suns in 2005 or the year he scored like 20 straight points against Atlanta. Good times. :tu

[D-Wade]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYFJ91zcPVc

Damn never knew about the 24 straight pts against ATL...

Age man.

[Leetonidas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYFJ91zcPVc

Damn never knew about the 24 straight pts against ATL...

Age man.

:worthy:

If Spurs had this version of Manu instead of the current one they'd be a hell of a lot scarier and definitely would've beaten Miami. Father time is a mother fucker :depressed

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:worthy:

If Spurs had this version of Manu instead of the current one they'd be a hell of a lot scarier and definitely would've beaten Miami. Father time is a mother fucker :depressed

Dude, we almost beat Miami with none of our big three (maybe Parker) in their prime..

No disrespect to MIA.. but imagine them against us in 05...

[Leetonidas]

It's hard to compare 2005 to 2013. Duncan had such a great year last season he was almost at 2005 level so the real drop off would be in overall defense and Manu's decline. Parker is light years ahead of where he was in 2005. That team was a joy to watch though, I wish we could've seen the Parker now back then, the Spurs might have another title or so if he was as good then as he has become. From getting benched for Speedy Claxton and Brent Barry to almost winning Game 6 of the Finals in the last minute with a calf injury...man how times change.

[Killakobe81]

Favorite Spur after Duncan. David was a better player but Manu had that clutch gene.

[Killakobe81]

And he definitely has a case as best sg after Kobe in post MJ era ...Miller and Wade are the others.

[Koolaid_Man]

And he definitely has a case as best sg after Kobe in post MJ era ...Miller and Wade are the others.

Lol. Always know how to crack me up with your comedy..you.need to be kings of comedy dawg. Lol...i needed that laugh...:lmao

[Killakobe81]

Lol. Always know how to crack me up with your comedy..you.need to be kings of comedy dawg. Lol...i needed that laugh...:lmao

didnt say he was it. I would go ...

1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Miller
4. Manu

But you can make a case for Manu at 3, especially if you count rings and gold medals as more critical than points.

[lefty]

6

[lefty]

Damn Manu almost broke 2 achilles at 2:40

[Koolaid_Man]

didnt say he was it. I would go ...

1. Kobe
2. Miller
3. Wade
4. Iverson
5. Allen
6. Manu

But you can make a case for Manu at 3, especially if you count rings and gold medals as more critical than points.


fify dawg.....I doubt Manu could carry a team to the finals like AI did....it's one thing to be a system player but quite another to do what A.I did while the refs admittedly were cheating against him

[Leetonidas]

fify dawg.....I doubt Manu could carry a team to the finals like AI did....it's one thing to be a system player but quite another to do what A.I did while the refs admittedly were cheating against him

Wrong again


Steve Javie vs. Allen Iverson
Donaghy claims referee Steve Javie does not like NBA star Allen Iverson, and that betting against Iverson's teams in Javie-refereed games was good strategy.

"If Javie was on the court when Iverson was playing," writes Donaghy, "I would usually bet on the other team to win or at least cover the spread. No matter how many times Iverson hit the floor, he rarely saw the foul line."

One can dig into each and every game -- Javie refereed Iverson just 14 times while Donaghy was betting. And you know what? Iverson's teams did just about average, compared to the betting line. On November 26, 2003, when the Pistons were in Philadelphia, the Sixers were favored by one point, but won by four. So, Donaghy's rule would have lost you money that night. Javie was on the court when Iverson's Sixers played in Seattle on December 28, 2004. The Sonics were eight point favorites, but won by just seven. If he had followed his own advice, Donaghy would have lost money that night. Javie refereed when Iverson's Sixers killed the Nets, 116-96, on April 12, 2006.

All together, in the period in question, Iverson's teams beat the spread six times, and failed to beat it seven times when Javie was refereeing. Once, there was a "push" (in 2005, when the Spurs were nine point favorites, and beat the Sixers 100-91).

Win or lose, gamblers typically pay a 10 percent vig. Basically, to win $100, you have to bet $110. If someone had bet $110 on Iverson's opponents to beat the spread in each of the 14 Javie games, they would have won $700, lost $660, (and had no money change hands on the "push" game). Do the math there, and you'll see that this betting strategy would have left you with a measly $40 profit, on $1540 gambled.

You'd have to bet a ton of money to get rich that way. Of course, it's possible that Donaghy only bet some of these games, and happened on a winning streak. But the rule he describes in his book is no way to beat your bookie. And it's not true that following this rule would make you a long-term winner.

Most importantly for those who like to believe that the NBA is a pretty fair game, there's no evidence to support the notion that Allen Iverson had it particularly bad in Javie games. The specifics of which referee made which call are not available -- only the NBA has that -- but the idea that Iverson would shoot fewer free throws in games Javie referees is simply not true. Iverson averaged 8.5 free throws per 36 minutes played in those 14 Javie games, compared to 7.9 per 36 minutes played over his entire career. (A note about that statistic: TrueHoop reader Bobby points out that these were peak years for Iverson, and using his career stats might be unfair. He's right: A follow-up analysis reveals that during the four seasons in question, Iverson averaged 8.7 points per 36 minutes, meaning his rate in Javie games was a tiny percentage less than normal for that time. Nevertheless, there's still nothing to suggest betting against Iverson's teams in Javie games would help you achieve anything close to 7 out of 10 winners, nor that Javie was significantly influencing Iverson's free throw rate as Donaghy suggests. You can assess the boxscores for the 14 games Javie reffed while Donaghy says he was betting (11/26/2003 Pistons at Sixers , 2/3/2004 Raptors at Sixers , 12/28/2004 Sixers at SuperSonics , 1/12/2005 Sixers at Bulls , 2/4/2005 Hawks at Sixers, 3/2/2005 Nets at Sixers, 4/1/2005 Mavericks at Sixers, 12/3/2005 Sixers at Spurs, 12/14/2005 Hawks at Sixers, 1/16/2006 Sixers at Wizards, 3/31/2006 Sixers at Knicks, 4/12/2006 Sixers at Nets, 3/30/2007 Nuggets at Suns, 4/16/2007 Timberwolves at Nuggets).

Wayne Winston is a professor at Indiana University's Kelley School of Business, the author of the book "Mathletics" which explains intricate methods of using math to assess sports, including referee bias. In the nine years he worked for the Dallas Mavericks, Winston built a sophisticated database of NBA game information. Winston used his own methods to check into Donaghy's claim about Javie and Iverson. He looked into how Iverson's Sixers teams performed compared to expectations when Javie refereed, and similarly found nothing to confirm Donaghy's assertion. "I computed forecasts based on Sagarin ratings for each game Javie officiated against the 76ers from 2002-2006," he reports, "and found zero evidence that Javie unfavorably impacted 76ers performance in those games."

Joe Crawford and Allen Iverson
"Referee Joe Crawford had a grandson who idolized Iverson," writes Donaghy. "I once saw Crawford bring the boy out of the stands and onto the floor during warm-ups to meet the superstar. Iverson and Crawford’s grandson were standing there, shaking hands, smiling, talking about all kinds of things. If Joe Crawford was on the court, I was pretty sure Iverson’s team would win or at least cover the spread."

In the relevant period Iverson's teams -- the Sixers from 2003 into 2006, then the Nuggets -- were refereed by Crawford 14 times. They only beat the spread five times, and failed nine times.
The games in question are 11/5/2003 Hornets at Sixers, 2/5/2004 Lakers at Sixers, 1/22/2005 Sixers at Magic, 2/11/2005 Sixers at Raptors, 3/1/2005 Sixers at Bucks, 11/11/2005 Lakers at Sixers, 11/26/2005 Sixers at Knicks, 12/12/2005 Timberwolves at Sixers, 2/8/2006 Sixers at Bobcats, 3/9/2006 Nuggets at Sixers, 4/8/2006 Sixers at Bulls, 11/17/2006 Sixers at Suns, 2/20/2007 Nuggets at Spurs, and 4/9/2007 Lakers at Nuggets.

Betting against Iverson's team in Crawford games would have been lucrative. But Donaghy recommended betting for Iverson's team to beat the spread in these games. Let's pretend Donaghy bet $110 on Iverson's team to beat the spread in every Crawford game. Donaghy would have paid $990 for the nine losers, and won $500 on the winners, meaning he would have lost $490.

Of course, you'd be far better off just picking winners at random.

For what it's worth, there's little evidence Iverson was getting any favors in these games, as his free throw rate in Crawford games was 7.9 per 36 minutes -- the same as his career average.

[Koolaid_Man]

^ one ref? really :lmao I didn't know one guy ref'd all of AI's games.... I watched the 60 min's report..they had a league wide conspiracy against AI...and it's documented very well in the 60 min clip..I will post it for your dumb ass shortly

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

^ one ref? really :lmao I didn't know one guy ref'd all of AI's games.... I watched the 60 min's report..they had a league wide conspiracy against AI...and it's documented very well in the 60 min clip..I will post it for your dumb ass shortly
Lol he led a scrub Argentina team to a gold medal over AI, Kobe, etc...

[Koolaid_Man]

Lol he led a scrub Argentina team to a gold medal over AI, Kobe, etc...

hey dumbass you got the game all twisted.....Manure ain't led shit over Kobe...he lead that shit over A.I and that faggot you cheer for...get your shit straight bitch

[Clipper Nation]

Lol he led a scrub Argentina team to a gold medal over AI, Kobe, etc...

Kirby didn't play that year, he was too busy running Shaq offPERIOD in the aftermath of The Rape and The Snitch, tbh....

[Kool Bob Love]

10 years later Manu still better than kirby.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4Qn8SDGETk

[Kobe_5_Duncan_4]

KobeJino :lol

[Leetonidas]

I thought Kobe was an "elite" defensive player back then tbh :lol

:lol letting a 2nd year euro torch you

[ElNono]

:cry warrior :cry

[Proxy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8zhDrzorXs

33-12-7.

check out 1:30 to see Kobe's defense skills

Carry on :toast

yeah... that was the game when I bought his jersey.

:lol Shane Heal

[RD2191]

Prime Manu shits all over Wade, Kobe, and Miller.

[Bynumite]

Prime Manu shits all over Wade, Kobe, and Miller.

:lmao You should do stand-up tbh.

[Bynumite]

Kirby didn't play that year, he was too busy running Shaq offPERIOD in the aftermath of The Rape and The Snitch, tbh....

Without Kobe on their squad it's a shit stained bronze medal for Jim and your boy Lebeta :lol

[Vash StampedE]

10 years later Manu still better than kirby.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4Qn8SDGETk
Kobe preferred to sit those 4 games than to be be shitted by Manu, tbh.

[Joseph Kony]

:lmao You should do stand-up tbh.

:tu

[Killakobe81]

fify dawg.....I doubt Manu could carry a team to the finals like AI did....it's one thing to be a system player but quite another to do what A.I did while the refs admittedly were cheating against him

Sorry was never a huge AI fan but I slept on Ray ...
Since MJ

1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Ray
4. Miller
5. Manu
6. A.I.

[Ashy Larry]

Greetings bastards


And the only thing I remember from Manu is shooting the Spurs fifth title in the ass


:toast 28

Good to see you muthafukkas

[ElNono]

sup Larry, hows the fam

[Ashy Larry]

Fam is good ..... can't complain


how's life on the other side????

[ElNono]

everything good here... getting ready for the season, per par

[Splits]

jQG7EoYJNA8

[HI-FI]

Greetings bastards


And the only thing I remember from Manu is shooting the Spurs fifth title in the ass


:toast 28

Good to see you muthafukkas
:lol
that he did. it's basically caused a civil war upstairs, between those of us pissed off and the Argentinian nationalists/nazi harborers led by Nono in protecting their man.

still prime Manu was something else. good to see you and that other nig KillaAchilles around.

[LkrFan]

Greetings bastards


And the only thing I remember from Manu is shooting the Spurs fifth title in the ass


:toast 28

Good to see you muthafukkas
Did someone call for a blast from the most recent past? Here ya go son:

NKDeak5Rkgo&sns

"YouTube. Because seeing is believing."

:lol

[ambchang]

didnt say he was it. I would go ...

1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Miller
4. Manu

But you can make a case for Manu at 3, especially if you count rings and gold medals as more critical than points.
Mostly agreed, though I think miller (I am assuming you are talking Reggie) peaked before 1999. Post Jordan, he wasn't that good.

Also carter (a sf playing as a SG) should be there somewhere. Gilbert arenas and AI are PG who played like SG. So is Marbury, but I would only out AI above Manu in terms of career and building a team.

[Killakobe81]

Mostly agreed, though I think miller (I am assuming you are talking Reggie) peaked before 1999. Post Jordan, he wasn't that good.

Also carter (a sf playing as a SG) should be there somewhere. Gilbert arenas and AI are PG who played like SG. So is Marbury, but I would only out AI above Manu in terms of career and building a team.

Fair points but I just meant career wise. Miller did get his first Finals trip two seasons after MJ retired ...and yes I did forget VC but I think I would STILL take Manu. I liked Vince back from his UNC days his NJ years soured me some on him.

[Killakobe81]

Greetings bastards


And the only thing I remember from Manu is shooting the Spurs fifth title in the ass


:toast 28

Good to see you muthafukkas

Welcome back, Ashy!!!

[ambchang]

Fair points but I just meant career wise. Miller did get his first Finals trip two seasons after MJ retired ...and yes I did forget VC but I think I would STILL take Manu. I liked Vince back from his UNC days his NJ years soured me some on him.

Career wise miller > Manu, I agree.
Post Jordan miller made the finals because, well, there was no more Jordan. Which again speaks to team success being a horrible gauge of a player's individual excellence.

Carter during the air Canada days pre injury was dynamite. Especially that year he had Oakley to kick his butt.

[Killakobe81]

Career wise miller > Manu, I agree.
Post Jordan miller made the finals because, well, there was no more Jordan. Which again speaks to team success being a horrible gauge of a player's individual excellence.

Carter during the air Canada days pre injury was dynamite. Especially that year he had Oakley to kick his butt.

I get your conclusion ...devaluing team success in individual debates, but that was a poor example. Miller can only play vs. his peers. MJ played against similar competition, no one devalues his rings. MJ got older ... even if he stays they don't continue ringing. My guess Indiana would of eventually beat them just as Pistons did Bulls or Spurs did 3peat Lakers. Team success matters some just like team failure does. Otherwise why point out Pau or TMAc not winning a series without Kobe or Duncan? or Kobe missing playoffs? Or Dirk's "8" or Duncan's?! You have to judge the whole: Rings. stats and playoff failures.



And yes VC was dynamite his series with AI was good stuff until the graduation issue. I still place him behind those guys however. But he is in that same company.

[TDMVPDPOY]

reggie is 1 way player only....he struffle against turnoboli

[AchillesHeel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPGiUU2O_PU

[ezau]

Chuck said it best: father time is undefeated.

[ezau]

Manu is easily the 2nd best SG after Kobe this generation. LOL at those who put Wade at number 2. Can't believe people here would put down Manu just because he's white and Wade is black. Get your black propaganda outta here, tbh. :lol

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

why did the faggot ass laker fan moderator take away the title of my thread?

ginobili SHITS on kobe in 03

[D-Wade]

Manu is easily the 2nd best SG after Kobe this generation. LOL at those who put Wade at number 2. Can't believe people here would put down Manu just because he's white and Wade is black. Get your black propaganda outta here, tbh. :lol

:lmaobutthurt is strong with this one

[ElNono]

Being top 5 of this generation is a major accomplishment for somebody that isn't super athletically gifted like a lot of his competition.

Nothing to be ashamed of there.

[DMC]

:20 he walks all over the floor

[Ashy Larry]

:lol
that he did. it's basically caused a civil war upstairs, between those of us pissed off and the Argentinian nationalists/nazi harborers led by Nono in protecting their man.

still prime Manu was something else. good to see you and that other nig KillaAchilles around.

gotta get back around. Get back to shit talking and this season is gonna be fun because the Lakers are gonna be shit.