Dirk or KG?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Who is the best second best PF of the decade? I suppose an argument could be made for Pau, but I just don't see him getting the type of support these two have.

So who is it? Dirk or KG? Big Ticket vs. Dirk Diggler. That incredible 11' finals performance or the clutch performance KG had when they beat LA for the title?

[FkLA]

The guy that made a huge impact on both sides of the court tbh.

[irishock]

The guy that carried an entire fuckin franchise on his shoulders for 15 years, and brought home an NBA championship.

[FkLA]

http://www.alljsalldtime.com/wp-content/gallery/air-jordan-xvi-aj-16-michael-finley-mavericks-pe/aj-xvi-michael-finley-mav-pe-www-ajsadt-com-2.jpg

http://api.ning.com/files/Nulc6rdzcjnnazi7nzg85TwSlCdcOjVTJg4kjYLO0lumz88bs3 IJUk9Pexkb3T0Nfo8jK4mP3Gl5VuAtX8H4CZ--NelmsCMb/Dallas_Mavericks_Playoffs_2011_Wallpaper.jpg?width =737&height=460

lol on his shoulders

[irishock]

James Terry, Ason Kidd, Shawn Stevenson and Ty Chandler, wow you can compare that supporting cast to the 08 Celtics.


2-7 without Dirk that year :lmao

:lol Canadian PG and JerMichael Finley as his 2nd and 3rd fiddles earlier in his career

:lol then taking an even worse squad to the NBA Finals in 06

[FkLA]

How about KGs supporting casts in Minny? Care to go over the rosters and payroll so we can see why he never made it past the WCF ?

[spurraider21]

his best team every on minnesota was with sprewell and cassell tbh. not a very impressive bunch. and anthony peeler was their "perimeter stopper" :lol

oh and they had the alien looking center. ervin johnson

[irishock]

And who did Dirk have in 06? Terry, Howard and Stackhouse? :lol KG had one great year leading a team, but that was it. Dirk did what KG did in 04 for 10 consecutive seasons.

[FkLA]

his best team every on minnesota was with sprewell and cassell tbh. not a very impressive bunch. and anthony peeler was their "perimeter stopper" :lol

oh and they had the alien looking center. ervin johnson

And unsurprisingly enough he got out of the first round and made the WCF. Cassell was injured during that run too, he was playing PG at times in those WCF. Oh and how about Trenton Hassell? I remember when people used to call him Minny's Bowen. :lol

[Sean Cagney]

DAIRK!!!!!!!!!

[spurraider21]

Didn't Dirk have Nash, Finley, and Jamison? while Findog and Jamison were playing at their best?

[Trainwreck2100]

How about KGs supporting casts in Minny? Care to go over the rosters and payroll so we can see why he never made it past the WCF ?

Supporting casts that were shitty as a direct result of KG's contract.

[irishock]

:cry game 7 vs Kings
:cry winning his first ever playoff series against rookie Melo

[irishock]

Didn't Dirk have Nash, Finley, and Jamison? while Findog and Jamison were playing at their best?

Yeah, he had pre-MVP Nash, past-prime Finley and choker Jamison who was there for 1 year.

[irishock]

Dirk: 13
KG: 2

playoff series won as the Alpha

:downspin:

[Jacob1983]

I know some people like to nut hug on KG because of his defense and rebounding but I'd go with Dirk because in 2011 he finally proved that he had the killer instinct. Dirk didn't leave the Western Conference to go chase a ring in the shitty Eastern Conference.

[FkLA]

Supporting casts that were shitty as a direct result of KG's contract.

Sure, but that wouldnt have mattered if he had Cubes as his owner tbh.

[spurraider21]

I do side with Dirk, slightly, and primarily because of the '11 run. KG never did anything remotely close to that. For that playoff run, Dirk was the best player in the league. KG never had a playoff run where he was the best player in the NBA.

[Jacob1983]

Dirk carried the Mavs in 2011. I know he had a shitty game 6 in the Finals but if he hadn't have gone off in games 2, 4, and 5 the Mavs would have been fucked. I know people hate this cliché or saying but Dirk wanted the ring more than Lehairline in 2011.

[FkLA]

If we're talking peak performances thenn yeah Dirks 2011 wins. The question was for the decade though.

[irishock]

that's even more lopsided for Dirk if we're talking decade-wise. He was the better player by 05 and eventually surpassed any accomplishments KG ever made.

[FkLA]

:lmao

[ezau]

Dirk easily. Just watch Dirk's 2011 playoff run and there's no fucking way KG could've topped that.

[Killakobe81]

Who is the best second best PF of the decade? I suppose an argument could be made for Pau, but I just don't see him getting the type of support these two have.

So who is it? Dirk or KG? Big Ticket vs. Dirk Diggler. That incredible 11' finals performance or the clutch performance KG had when they beat LA for the title?

high comedy, I love Pau and in a vacum you could argue he was better triangle fit and the best pure post player not named Tim of his era ....but LOL, ROFL etc. On him being anywhere as good as either KG or Dirk.

Both KG and dirk made WCF as the alpha male of their teams. Pau was getting swept prior to being a #2 option on LaLa land.

[Killakobe81]

Dirk easily. Just watch Dirk's 2011 playoff run and there's no fucking way KG could've topped that.

Dirk's 2011 is more impressive than what KG or Pau has EVER produced. But when you factor both ends I would say:

1. KG
2. Dirk

3. Pau

[Killakobe81]

And i love Pau I expect a good resurgent year from Gasol too bad Lakers may trade him to a legit contender this year ...

[Rogue]

Dirk doesn't have as many rings as Tim but they definitely belong in the same tier imho. and just like my nigga Jacob said, Dirk refused to move elsewhere even during our darkest years. Dirk's always been a mav in-heart and he's been sticking with his team through thick and thin. KG had another two superstars playing alongside him the year he rang and he wasn't even the best player on that team, while the 2nd best player on 11' mavs squad was JET? TC, or Jason Kidd? Them all were just role players imho. It's fair to say Dirk is the only superstar in modern basketball who has won the NBA championship with no other superstar in the supporting cast (04' pistons had no real superstar at all)

[Leetonidas]

Tough argument, but I'll have to pick Dirk because of his ability to become unstoppable and hit big shots with ease, something KG has never been known to do in the playoffs

[AchillesHeel]

Dirk: 13
KG: 2

playoff series won as the Alpha

:downspin:

http://h2.abload.de/img/0064_qaev.gif

[diego]

Supporting casts that were shitty as a direct result of KG's contract.

IIRC the cap didnt exist (or wasnt as punitive) at the time kg signed his contract. Also, other players have had ridiculous contracts but didnt have to pay with shitty supporting casts because of their owners' deep pockets / more attractive location than minnesota.

Also, he wasnt responsible for the parade of shitty GMs and coaches, the joe smith fiasco etc. The best timberwolves teams were KG teams. I dont see any argument you can make for the wolves having better management than just about any franchise (bobcats?), much less the mavs who, results aside, were a huge story from the moment cuban bought the team.

over dirks career, the mavs spent over 150Mill in lux tax payments.
over kgs career, the wolves and celts spent just over 70mil between them.

I would say that is a pretty huge difference, no matter how much mavs fans like to insist that all those guys were washed up / not worth it.

[Brazil]

KG made more of an impact on both side of the floor, he lead some of the toughest defensive teams of the last decade. But, even if KG was obviously Key in the Celtics lob he didn't dominate the playoffs like Dirk in 2011. That run by itself close the debate imho

[Phillip]

KG is a better all around player.

Dirk is better to build a team around.

If I need choose a guy for my team to take on the leadership role and dominate offensively in the clutch, I want Dirk. If I already have a good leader and dominant scorer on my team (like Paul Pierce), I want KG.

[nowhereman523]

This debate has been over for a while. By 2006, Dirk had already done more with less than KG ever had.

[The Reckoning]

dyurk

[diego]

in 08, KG had a higher PER, higher winshares, higher WS/48, higher reb%, ast%, stl%, blk% than dirk in 11. He lead his team in usage rate, winshares and winshares /48. Dirk had a higher usage rate, better shooting numbers, slightly less turnovers, and also lead his team in winshares (by a larger margin) but actually had lower winshares/48 than chandler. also, the 08 celtics probably destroy the 11 mavs thanks to their defense.

I understand picking dirk and his superior offense, but I dont think its the dominating win some people on this board like to paint out.

[irishock]

Dirk had even better statistical years in 06, 07, 09, and 10. Funny how you guys keep acting like 2011 was his only dominant season ever.

[Prime KG]

It's time for me to weigh in. Everyone (except Spur fans trying to win a KG vs Dirk debate) seems to forget that I was a mythical gargantuan on the court who could dominate every facet of the game, make clutch plays every night, and would have a Bill Russell size ring collection if Wally Fucking Szczerbiak wasn't my second best teammate for most of my career.

On the flip side, everyone (Except Spur fan trying to win a KG vs Duncan debate) seems to forget what a sorry, nutless playoff choker I was and how I needed 2 Hall Of Famers next to me to win a title, and no there's no fucking irony in making that argument when Tim had Robinson, Parker, and Ginobili. None at all.

[Leetonidas]

Sprewell > Wally tbh

[ambchang]

I would pick KG as the better player die to his D, but if I were allowed to only have one of the two as the best player on my team, I'd go with dirk. I that makes any sense.

[Killakobe81]

I would pick KG as the better player die to his D, but if I were allowed to only have one of the two as the best player on my team, I'd go with dirk. I that makes any sense.

It does. As great as KG was Chandler did much of the same things on defense for 2011 mavs. Point being that you can plug in a Noah or Chandler for defense. But maybe only Bird and maybe Durant someday could carry a team as a shooter on a run like Dirk had.

[Killakobe81]

But the fact KG gives you footy defense a reliable mid range jumper and a great passer and screener.

[nowhereman523]

also, the 08 celtics probably destroy the 11 mavs thanks to their defense.

While your entire post is full of distorted reality, I'll point out one thing here - That Celtics core lost to a Lakers team the Mavs swept.

[Phillip]

While your entire post is full of distorted reality, I'll point out one thing here - That Celtics core lost to a Lakers team the Mavs swept.

I don't agree that the 08 Celtics DESTROY the 11 Mavs as he suggests, but honestly, this counter argument is terrible.

Better arguments exist in the fact that the Celtics struggled and were taken to 7 games by two teams that didn't even win 5 games, including one team that was below .500 in a weak Eastern conference.

[HarlemHeat37]

This argument has been exhausted dozens of times on ST, so I won't get into it, but I'll just say that 2006 Dirk > 2011 Dirk, tbh..

Everybody remembers 2011 Dirk because of the Mavs' improbable run, but 2006 Nowitzki was more dominant and unstoppable, until the memory of that run was tainted by Three's historic performance, tbh..

2006 Dirk > 2011 Dirk
2004 Garnett > 2008 Garnett

[Phillip]

This argument has been exhausted dozens of times on ST, so I won't get into it, but I'll just say that 2006 Dirk > 2011 Dirk, tbh..

Everybody remembers 2011 Dirk because of the Mavs' improbable run, but 2006 Nowitzki was more dominant and unstoppable, until the memory of that run was tainted by Three's historic performance, tbh..

I don't disagree with this, however 2006 Dirk I don't think pulls off what 2011 Dirk did. 2011 Dirk had a much more refined post game and was more hardened mentally from the previous failures, which came in handy in all the comeback wins during the run, as well as dealing with the constant waves of double teams and smaller, quick defenders that a younger Dirk had a harder time dealing with.

[ezau]

Dirk's 2011 is more impressive than what KG or Pau has EVER produced. But when you factor both ends I would say:

1. KG
2. Dirk

3. Pau

Why? Because of KG's defense? How could people easily forget that Dirk was rebounding pretty well, especially during the Mavs' 2011 run? Let's put it this way, if you put 2011 KG in a Mavs uniform, do you think he'll be able to carry the Mavs to the championship?:lol The 2011 run is enough to make Dirk the best PF of this generation not named Tim Duncan. Let's not forget that Dirk had to contend with a prime Duncan for most of his career. If Dirk played in the East, he's an automatic fixture in the ECF.

[ezau]

I think most people here are a little butthurt that a white kid from Germany shits on their black icon, hence their denial when giving Dirk his due:lol

[FkLA]

The Mavs were built around Dirk, of course they don't win if you plug KG in his place. Just like the Cs don't win with Dirk instead of KG. That's a dumbass argument tbh.

Anyways to the rest...is Olajuwon the best center of all-time? Do you place the same emphasis on peak performance for him as you do for Dirk? And if so why nnot.

[Phillip]

Why? Because of KG's defense? How could people easily forget that Dirk was rebounding pretty well, especially during the Mavs' 2011 run? Let's put it this way, if you put 2011 KG in a Mavs uniform, do you think he'll be able to carry the Mavs to the championship?:lol The 2011 run is enough to make Dirk the best PF of this generation not named Tim Duncan. Let's not forget that Dirk had to contend with a prime Duncan for most of his career. If Dirk played in the East, he's an automatic fixture in the ECF.

Heck, how about even 2004 KG on the 2011 Mavs? Still no championship in sight. Second round at best in a very tough year in the western conference.

[Phillip]

The Mavs were built around Dirk, of course they don't win if you plug KG in his place. Just like the Cs don't win with Dirk instead of KG. That's a dumbass argument tbh.

Anyways to the rest...is Olajuwon the best center of all-time? Do you place the same emphasis on peak performance for him as you do for Dirk? And if so why nnot.

Point is, to put comparable talent.

No team has been able to win with KG as their best player, and probably can't. He will always have to defer to someone due to his offensive limitations.

[FkLA]

Point is, to put comparable talent.

No team has been able to win with KG as their best player, and probably can't. He will always have to defer to someone due to his offensive limitations.

KG was the best player on the Cs in '08, anybody that thinks it was Pierce is a retard. Did he have more talent than Dirk did? Sure but then again Dirk always had more talent prior to that. The only year KG had compareable talent in Minny was in 2004 and he played out of his mind that year. Injuries hit Cassell in the playoffs and that was that. Didn't have anything to do with KG's 'limitations'.

[Rogue]

Point is, to put comparable talent.

No team has been able to win with KG as their best player, and probably can't. He will always have to defer to someone due to his offensive limitations.
agree. when I was playing old-version NBA lives I always had a hard time figuring out how to use him, at the offensive end primarily. Dude was an incredible rebounder and he scored some pick'n'roll points as well as points from 2nd chances but you can never make him the offensive core of your team imho. and that's why the likes of DH and KG, and even Ben Wallace can't be the #1 on a champion team.

[Rogue]

KG was the best player on the Cs in '08, anybody that thinks it was Pierce is a retard. Did he have more talent than Dirk did? Sure but then again Dirk always had more talent prior to that. The only year KG had compareable talent in Minny was in 2004 and he played out of his mind that year. Injuries hit Cassell in the playoffs and that was that. Didn't have anything to do with KG's 'limitations'.

So the pundits who handed Paul Pierce the finals MVP trophy must be all retards imho. The prime KG was a better all-round player and he always had some crazy overall ratings in old-version video games, but like stretch figured out above, his limitations in offense always prevented him from being the right leader of a team that's poised to win the championship. you brought up Sam Cassell's injury in 04 (though I'm not really sure what happened that year, I was a math/physics nerd back then) as an evidence to rebut KG's offensive limitation that stretch addressed, but imho it worked out against your standpoint. It just demonstrated how limited his offensive game was, and how much he counted on role players to bail him out offensively. So when an important role player failed, the team failed, but a legit leader would of never let it happen. We lost Caron Butler (the #2 or #3 scoring option of that team then) before or after the all-star break I'm not sure, but we ended up winning the championship that year anyway with a new set of role players featuring Peja, JJB, Findog and Lincoln.

[Ghazi]

Mavs in 2011 maybe wouldn't win with KG, but 2008 Celtics probably would not win with Dirk in place of Garnett

it depends on the supporting casts.

I think KG's impact is probably greater.

[Russo21]

Dirk for sure. Spurs v Mavs and Duncan v Dirk were always epic. Throw in the interstate connection and brilliant playoff matchups. Correct if i'm wrong but I can only recall Spurs v Wolves only playing one playoff series against each other (1999) So with Duncan v Dirk in the same conference, same division all these years its definitely Dirk. Him and the Mavs have just always been there. That and Dirk has been the greatest shooting big man ever that I can think of and played with extra fire against the spurs. I always remember looking forward to any mavs v spurs game and having it circled on the calander so to speak. Cant say the same about spurs v wolves or spurs v Celtics.

[Rogue]

Mavs in 2011 maybe wouldn't win with KG, but 2008 Celtics probably would not win with Dirk in place of Garnett

it depends on the supporting casts.

I think KG's impact is probably greater.
But you never count on role players to win championships imho. they may carry you close to it (like the 13' spurs) but the onus is always on your star players to finish the last few steps, in crunch minutes.

I think the impacts KG made on the 08' celts was similar to what your kid's daddy TC did on the 11' team, and it's hard to say who was more important to that team, dirk or TC. It's certainly safe to say we wouldn't have won it without TC. I think TC, or KG in celtics' case, was like a catalyst that boosted the team's chemistry and escalated the team to the elite level, but the responsibility still came down to the real leaders (Dirk and Pierce) when shit really mattered. Pierce came back from wheelchair and won the game and subsequently the series for the 08' celtics, imho

[FkLA]

KG had the same impact Big Daddy Tyson had on the defensive end and chipped in 20 ppg on the other end. A whopping one point less than what Pierce averaged--yall act like Pierce was averaging 30 and KG 15 or something. :lol

The Finals MVP is not all that different than Parker getting it over Duncan in 07 tbh.

[Leon Black]

Garnett isn't in Dirk's tier tbh. Garnett or Gasol would be a more suitable topic

[DAF86]

I remember when I used to give a fuck about these kind of threads.

[Killakobe81]

Dirk is a beast on offense. KG on defense. Dirk has improved defensively but is not a great defender. KG has been an effective offensive player almost every year in the league and was a much better rookie than Dirk was. I would love to hear the advanced nerds weigh in since so many love to weigh in on other debates. Im with Amb I would choose Dirk as my franchise player because his game is so unique and a TRULY great scorer is hard to find. But imho KG is closer on offense to Dirk than Dirk is to KG on defense. Plus KG is a greater leader. but defense the type that KG plays never has an "off" night. I think KG impacts the game on more levels.

It's a great argument because they both have unique strengths. A case can be made that Dirk's shot making ability and clutch jumpers are more valuable than the leadership and defensive strengths KG brings along with a great mid-range jumper.

These are two of my favorite non-Lakers. So tough call. but if both dropped dead today I give a slight edge to KG. But it's very close.

[Venti Quattro]

Dirk because he loves my nigga Poldi. Also, because Garnett is a bitch

[Killakobe81]

Dirk because he loves my nigga Poldi. Also, because Garnett is a bitch

What up VQ? I think many on here cant separate KG being an asshole, from him being one of the best players of the straight to HS generation and every bit on dirk's level. Right now only Kobe can be ranked ahead career wise over KG of the recent HS players (not counting Moses) with Lebron likely passing both.

[Phillip]

What up VQ? I think many on here cant separate KG being an asshole, from him being one of the best players of the straight to HS generation and every bit on dirk's level. Right now only Kobe can be ranked ahead career wise over KG of the recent HS players (not counting Moses) with Lebron likely passing both.

I think most people understand how great KG was as an all-around, complete basketball player. But throughout his career, he consistently was unreliable in the clutch, because he didn't have particularly good ability to create shots for himself that he could consistently hit under pressure. Generally, he needed someone else to create a midrange jumper for him, and while he was generally money with it, however he had a tendency to start bricking that shot bad in the final 5 minutes of close games.

The reason most people are choosing Dirk, is because they are looking at it from a perspective of "who would you rather build a team around?", not "who is the better all around basketball player?". And honestly, I think the first question matters more in terms of an individuals greatness. There have been plenty of players who were better all around basketball players than Magic and Larry Bird. Both of them were weak defensively (much like Dirk), Magic wasn't a particularly good jump shooter, while Larry lacked physical advantages that others had. But it doesn't change the fact that they are two of the 10, probably 5 greatest players ever, mainly because of their leadership and ability to produce for their team when their teams needed them most. KG has NEVER been a guy known to consistently come through for his team in the clutch. But somehow since he acts like an asshole on the court and barks and punches his chest a bunch, that makes him look "tough" and like a "leader", even though his on court performance when his team needed him most didn't prove any such thing.

[Killakobe81]

I think most people understand how great KG was as an all-around, complete basketball player. But throughout his career, he consistently was unreliable in the clutch, because he didn't have particularly good ability to create shots for himself that he could consistently hit under pressure. Generally, he needed someone else to create a midrange jumper for him, and while he was generally money with it, however he had a tendency to start bricking that shot bad in the final 5 minutes of close games.

The reason most people are choosing Dirk, is because they are looking at it from a perspective of "who would you rather build a team around?", not "who is the better all around basketball player?". And honestly, I think the first question matters more in terms of an individuals greatness. There have been plenty of players who were better all around basketball players than Magic and Larry Bird. Both of them were weak defensively (much like Dirk), Magic wasn't a particularly good jump shooter, while Larry lacked physical advantages that others had. But it doesn't change the fact that they are two of the 10, probably 5 greatest players ever, mainly because of their leadership and ability to produce for their team when their teams needed them most. KG has NEVER been a guy known to consistently come through for his team in the clutch. But somehow since he acts like an asshole on the court and barks and punches his chest a bunch, that makes him look "tough" and like a "leader", even though his on court performance when his team needed him most didn't prove any such thing.

Fair critcisim of KG's inablity to create his own shot. And I agree that the dirk/bird comaprison (although Dirk lack's his vision) is an apt one. dirk's 2011 shooting clutch, regular season and playoffs was the best i ever seen.

Magic improved his jump shot much like Dirk/KG has improved their post game. So to say Magic wasnt a good jump shooter (good, not great) is false.

Rather fair or not many of the fans of the Mavs fans in DFW (i know I live in Frisco) derided Dirk as a choker before 2011. Many of the same critcisims that are probably still true for KG could be leveled at Dirk at one point in time. Without Tyson maybe some of those detractors still exist. I just think that there is bias in plenty of these type of debates. People lean to the player "they like".

Dirk is a badass. His 2011 Finals and 2005-2006 level of play were probably better than ANYTHING KG has ever done on offense and it's not close. a
Again to build, I take Dirk, but just saying like you did KG is better all around and for a career (so far) KG gets a slight edge.

on a related note it's only pre-season but Dirk looks closer to 2011 Dirk than KG looks like say even 2010 KG ... I think whenit's all said and done (both retired) I may choose Dirk.

[JamStone]

Honestly, it's a coin flip. People arguing for either guy all have legitimate points. But to me it's an either-or toss-up. I will say this about the "alpha" argument. Dirk is viewed as an alpha dog because he's the go-to scorer, the clutch scorer. But being the highest scorer or go-to guy on the team doesn't necessarily make you the alpha dog. Bill Russell was an alpha without necessarily doing it with scoring. Magic was an alpha even in the seasons Kareem or Worthy were the team's leading scorer. And Worthy didn't become the alpha in seasons he led the team in scoring. You don't have to be the leading scorer to be an alpha. And scoring isn't the only thing that matters. 2004 Kevin Garnett might have been the most complete player in the NBA since mid 90s Hakeem and before LeBron became the complete player he is a few years later.

There really is no wrong answer. The only things I've read that I really disagree with are 1) the argument that either is on a different level than the other. They aren't. They're in the same category and on the same level; and 2) that Kevin Garnett wasn't the best player on the 2008 Celtics team. Whoever suggested the latter must be just looking at points per game, again as if that determines anything. Pierce may have won the FMVP, but KG was the best player on that team. And it wasn't close.

[Killakobe81]

Honestly, it's a coin flip. People arguing for either guy all have legitimate points. But to me it's an either-or toss-up. I will say this about the "alpha" argument. Dirk is viewed as an alpha dog because he's the go-to scorer, the clutch scorer. But being the highest scorer or go-to guy on the team doesn't necessarily make you the alpha dog. Bill Russell was an alpha without necessarily doing it with scoring. Magic was an alpha even in the seasons Kareem or Worthy were the team's leading scorer. And Worthy didn't become the alpha in seasons he led the team in scoring. You don't have to be the leading scorer to be an alpha. And scoring isn't the only thing that matters. 2004 Kevin Garnett might have been the most complete player in the NBA since mid 90s Hakeem and before LeBron became the complete player he is a few years later.

There really is no wrong answer. The only things I've read that I really disagree with are 1) the argument that either is on a different level than the other. They aren't. They're in the same category and on the same level; and 2) that Kevin Garnett wasn't the best player on the 2008 Celtics team. Whoever suggested the latter must be just looking at points per game, again as if that determines anything. Pierce may have won the FMVP, but KG was the best player on that team. And it wasn't close.

Healthy perspective Jam and I agree ... how ya been playboy?

[FkLA]

I think most people understand how great KG was as an all-around, complete basketball player. But throughout his career, he consistently was unreliable in the clutch, because he didn't have particularly good ability to create shots for himself that he could consistently hit under pressure. Generally, he needed someone else to create a midrange jumper for him, and while he was generally money with it, however he had a tendency to start bricking that shot bad in the final 5 minutes of close games.

The reason most people are choosing Dirk, is because they are looking at it from a perspective of "who would you rather build a team around?", not "who is the better all around basketball player?". And honestly, I think the first question matters more in terms of an individuals greatness. There have been plenty of players who were better all around basketball players than Magic and Larry Bird. Both of them were weak defensively (much like Dirk), Magic wasn't a particularly good jump shooter, while Larry lacked physical advantages that others had. But it doesn't change the fact that they are two of the 10, probably 5 greatest players ever, mainly because of their leadership and ability to produce for their team when their teams needed them most. KG has NEVER been a guy known to consistently come through for his team in the clutch. But somehow since he acts like an asshole on the court and barks and punches his chest a bunch, that makes him look "tough" and like a "leader", even though his on court performance when his team needed him most didn't prove any such thing.

You always bring up Bird and Magic you god damn homer. How many times do I gotta tell you both are near the top for most career triple-doubles? Magic could dominate a game without scoring, so could Bird. Dirk cant. Hes a great scorer but thats it, hes average in every other aspect of the game.

You bring up KG consistently 'choking' as if Dirk was as clutch as he was in 2011 throughout his career. 2006 Dirk choked, 2007 Dirk got manhandled by an 8th seed. His other teams never had a chance at a title and were first/second round fodder.

[Jodelo]

And KG's team always had a chance at the title? :lol

[Killakobe81]

As I said before the shooting Dirk is on Bird's leel but vision he is nowhere close. And Again even Mavs fans were questioning Dirk's clutch genes prior to 2011. But to be fair thiough he had some high priced team-mates he never played with McHale, Parish, Dj or Ainge.

[FkLA]

And KG's team always had a chance at the title? :lol

That wasnt the point, dipshit. This is why I dont even bother writing out long posts on this subject anymore...the mavs fanbase is full of retarded homers like you tbh.

[Jodelo]

That wasnt the point, dipshit. This is why I dont even bother writing out long posts on this subject anymore...the mavs fanbase is full of retarded homers like you tbh.

Atleast Dirk got HIS team to the finals twice, fag. KG needed to join another team to do that...

[Phillip]

You always bring up Bird and Magic you god damn homer. How many times do I gotta tell you both are near the top for most career triple-doubles? Magic could dominate a game without scoring, so could Bird. Dirk cant. Hes a great scorer but thats it, hes average in every other aspect of the game.

You bring up KG consistently 'choking' as if Dirk was as clutch as he was in 2011 throughout his career. 2006 Dirk choked, 2007 Dirk got manhandled by an 8th seed. His other teams never had a chance at a title and were first/second round fodder.

Dirk is one of only two players in NBA history to average 25/10 in the playoffs for their careers. Obviously Dirk brings more to the table than just scoring. He is known for stepping up mightily as a rebounder in the playoffs. Hell, we even did a whole thread on this once, showing his defensive rebounding percentage was surprisingly high in the playoffs, and quite comparable (in several cases, superior) to other notable rebounders like KG, Duncan, Dwight, Barkley, Robinson, and others.

Not to mention the fact that virtually every player that has played with him, has had the most efficient years of their career. I can't begin to tell you how many were inefficient scorers before playing with Dirk, then have highly efficient years with him, and as soon as they leave, their efficiency drops massively. He obviously makes the game easier for his teammates, something that countless teammates of his has attested to.

I've never said that he is the best all around player around. Anyone who does is stupid. But to say that his contributions are his points and that's it, is absolutely ridiculous and narrow minded (per the norm for you, lolutsa)

[FkLA]

Atleast Dirk got HIS team to the finals twice, fag. KG needed to join another team to do that...

Yes, he did and he had plenty of help. Considerably more than KG ever had in Minny.

Very unlikely that Dirk does any better if he was ever in a situation like Minny. But dumbass homers like you dont take the time to think about things like that tbh.

[Phillip]

That wasnt the point, dipshit. This is why I dont even bother writing out long posts on this subject anymore...the mavs fanbase is full of retarded homers like you tbh.

Obviously it streches beyond the Mavs fanbase, considering the majority of people in this thread are picking Dirk, and most of them have been spursfans... :lmao

[CitizenDwayne]

Give the slight edge to Garnett

[FkLA]

Dirk is one of only two players in NBA history to average 25/10 in the playoffs for their careers. Obviously Dirk brings more to the table than just scoring. He is known for stepping up mightily as a rebounder in the playoffs. Hell, we even did a whole thread on this once, showing his defensive rebounding percentage was surprisingly high in the playoffs, and quite comparable (in several cases, superior) to other notable rebounders like KG, Duncan, Dwight, Barkley, Robinson, and others.

Not to mention the fact that virtually every player that has played with him, has had the most efficient years of their career. I can't begin to tell you how many were inefficient scorers before playing with Dirk, then have highly efficient years with him, and as soon as they leave, their efficiency drops massively. He obviously makes the game easier for his teammates, something that countless teammates of his has attested to.

I've never said that he is the best all around player around. Anyone who does is stupid. But to say that his contributions are his points and that's it, is absolutely ridiculous and narrow minded (per the norm for you, lolutsa)

Obviously drawing attention and opening things up for teammates comes with being a great scorer (unless youre a selfish POS like Kome). And I really dont care if his rebounding goes up from 8-9 rpg in the regular season to 10 rpg in the playoffs--hes still nothing more than an average rebounder/defender/everything else.



Obviously it streches beyond the Mavs fanbase, considering the majority of people in this thread are picking Dirk, and most of them have been spursfans... :lmao

spurfan is biased

They hate KG because Duncan hates KG. They love Dirk because hes classy and humble. Both of which are true and I agree with but that doesnt make Dirk>KG. Do a quick google search and overwhelming majority picks KG. You know this though because this horse has been beat to death already.

[Phillip]

Very unlikely that Dirk does any better if he was ever in a situation like Minny. But dumbass homers like you dont take the time to think about things like that.

Never was in a situation like Minny? Are you serious? From 2007-2010 he got teams to the playoffs with 50+ wins in which his best sidekick was Jason Terry, starting lineups that consistently included Erick Dampier, Antoine Wright, and Trenton Hassell, and benches that heavily relied on playing Deaven George, James Singleton, and Malik Allen. :rollin

[Phillip]

spurfan is biased

They hate KG because Duncan hates KG. They love Dirk because hes classy and humble. Both of which are true and I agree with but that doesnt make Dirk>KG. Do a quick google search and overwhelming majority picks KG. You know this though because this horse has been beat to death already.

rofl, so you must be the only unbiased spurfan around. yeah, im sure that is the case :rollin

i did a google search

its pretty much going exactly as this thread is. when you read the threads, most people say KG was a better all around player (which he is), and had the better career stats (which he does), but that they would take dirk to build around and lead a team to a title (which is the truth).

[FkLA]

Never was in a situation like Minny? Are you serious? From 2007-2010 he got teams to the playoffs with 50+ wins in which his best sidekick was Jason Terry, starting lineups that consistently included Erick Dampier, Antoine Wright, and Trenton Hassell, and benches that heavily relied on playing Deaven George, James Singleton, and Malik Allen. :rollin

You are a dumbass if you think KG's situation wasnt worse. Eugene Terry was better than any player KG ever had outside of 2004. Erica Dampier was better than any center KG ever had alongside him. Josh Howard was actually really good in the mid 2000s. Not to mention the fact Cubes was hands down a better owner and more willing spender.

Either way did he do any better than KG did in Minny? You do realize KG had a couple of 50 win seasons with Minny right ?

[FkLA]

rofl, so you must be the only unbiased spurfan around. yeah, im sure that is the case :rollin

i did a google search

its pretty much going exactly as this thread is. when you read the threads, most people say KG was a better all around player (which he is), and had the better career stats (which he does), but that they would take dirk to build around and lead a team to a title (which is the truth).

links, quotes, etc

I posted links of polls in the past. KG won all of them, pretty easily too. And no Im not the only unbiased spurfan, there have been others that picked KG as well tbh.

[Phillip]

You are a dumbass if you think KG's situation wasnt worse. Eugene Terry was better than any player KG ever had outside of 2004. Erica Dampier was better than any center KG ever had alongside him. Josh Howard was actually really good in the mid 2000s. Not to mention the fact Cubes was hands down a better owner and more willing spender.

Josh Howard wasn't very good during the run of years which I am talking about.

Terry is a solid guard, no doubt. But lets take a look at a run that KG had during some of his prime years in the early 2000s, in which he had 3 teams that made the playoffs with 50+ wins, but early playoff exits (similar to Dirks 3 year run in 07-10.

In 99, 01, and 02, the Wolves had 50 wins and made the playoffs each of those years, but had first round exits. The supporting cast?

Terrell Brandon 99/01 - A very solid guard who could score and rack up assists effectively, averaging around 15/8 in those seasons.
Chauncey Billups 01 - We all know how solid of a career Billups has had, and this season was when he began to gain steam for his career, with a solid season of 12/5.
Wally Sczerbiak 99/01/02 - One of the best shooters in the league during these years, and a very efficient scorer, including an all-star appearance.
Anthony Peeler 99/01/02 - Tenacious defender and a lethal spot up 3 point shooter, usually averaging around 9 ppg.
Joe Smith 99/01/02 - While a bust of a career, still a very solid bench big man, with per36 stats usually around 14/8.
Troy Hudson 02 - Solid scorer for a few years of his career, and this was one of them.

You act as if KG NEVER had any kind of talent around him, outside of 2004, and that Dirk ALWAYS had teams loaded with talent, when in fact, these teams were quite comparable (arguably superior) in talent to Dirk's supporting cast in 07-10.

[FkLA]

:lol Do you actually think naming those players helps your argument?

Outside of Brandon and Billups all of them had shitty ass careers. Billups was nothing special in Minny, Eugene Terry>>Brandon. Compare the payrolls and depth if you can too though, so I can laugh some more. Either way...did Dirk do any better during that period than KG did in his time at Minny ?

[jsandiego]

KG is a better defender. Dirk has better offense. Both relied on outside shooting early in their career. Those old T'wolves teams where Garnett would "run" the offense like a Point Forward from the top of the key -- they lived and died by the jump shot, and when the playoffs came, they'd die by it. Dirk figured out the post-up game in 2006 & 2011, and took HIS team to the Finals. KG joined a Big 3 group whose talents fit each other, and had great success.

In the end, Dirk needs a Chandler/enforcer defensive center, and KG needed a scorer and a shooter. With hindsight, I guess I'd take Dirk over KG knowing that the defensive center might be easier to find than a scorer and a shooter.

Also with hindsight, 2003 Tim Duncan looks amazing. He was the offense and the defense. No wonder he's in a class of his own.

[FkLA]

KG is a better defender. Dirk has better offense. Both relied on outside shooting early in their career. Those old T'wolves teams where Garnett would "run" the offense like a Point Forward from the top of the key -- they lived and died by the jump shot, and when the playoffs came, they'd die by it. Dirk figured out the post-up game in 2006 & 2011, and took HIS team to the Finals. KG joined a Big 3 group whose talents fit each other, and had great success.

In the end, Dirk needs a Chandler/enforcer defensive center, and KG needed a scorer and a shooter. With hindsight, I guess I'd take Dirk over KG knowing that the defensive center might be easier to find than a scorer and a shooter.

Also with hindsight, 2003 Tim Duncan looks amazing. He was the offense and the defense. No wonder he's in a class of his own.

Everybody needs another scorer to be their #2. What KG really needed was a closer because of his lack of an unstoppable move in crunchtime. He had one with Cassell in 04' and Pierce with the Cs. Not sure why people make a big deal of it though...Manu closed for Duncan and noones ever discredits him for it. Swingmen are better closers thats all there really is to it. Dirk is unique since hes the best shooting 7 footer of all-time.

[Phillip]

:lol Do you actually think naming those players helps your argument?

Outside of Brandon and Billups all of them had shitty ass careers. Billups was nothing special in Minny, Eugene Terry>>Brandon. Compare the payrolls and depth if you can too though, so I can laugh some more. Either way...did Dirk do any better during that period than KG did in his time at Minny ?

High payrolls = 100% guarantee of great players. Got it :tu

[FkLA]

High payrolls = 100% guarantee of great players. Got it :tu

Not always but in this case they were certainly better than the shit KG had tbh.

Where are the links/quotes of all the people picking Dirk over KG btw ?

[Phillip]

Everybody needs another scorer to be their #2. What KG really needed was a closer because of his lack of an unstoppable move in crunchtime. He had one with Cassell in 04' and Pierce with the Cs. Not sure why people make a big deal of it though...Manu closed for Duncan and noones ever discredits him for it. Swingmen are better closers thats all there really is to it. Dirk is unique since hes the best shooting 7 footer of all-time.

Duncan did his fair share of closing. And Manu wouldn't have been able to close as effectively as he did, if it wasn't for Duncan's presence. People are/were scared to death of Duncan's presence.

No one truly feared KG's offense at any point of his career. That would explain why 90% of his offense was wide open midrange jumpers. Once teams took that away (which basically everyone did so in crunch time), what did he have to offer on offense? Nothing other than junk points off of rebounds/hustle.

[Phillip]

Where are the links/quotes of all the people picking Dirk over KG btw ?

The same exact places where there are links/quotes of all the people picking KG over Dirk.

[FkLA]

Duncan did his fair share of closing. And Manu wouldn't have been able to close as effectively as he did, if it wasn't for Duncan's presence. People are/were scared to death of Duncan's presence.

No one truly feared KG's offense at any point of his career. That would explain why 90% of his offense was wide open midrange jumpers. Once teams took that away (which basically everyone did so in crunch time), what did he have to offer on offense? Nothing other than junk points off of rebounds/hustle.

Whoa. You are a bigger dumbass than I initially gave you credit for if you think 90% of his offense was uncontested midrange jumpers. He wasnt as good at it as Dirk but alot of his points came from isos and he drew plenty of double teams.

Duncan was never a great closer...certainly not as good as Manu. His FT shooting had alot to do with it.


The same exact places where there are links/quotes of all the people picking KG over Dirk.

Google 'dirk or kg poll' and look click on the first three links.

There I directed you to three of them. Now your turn, direct me to all the people picking Dirk over KG.

[ambchang]

Duncan wasn't a good closer? I'd say he wasn't great, but he was most definitely good.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Of the data between 03 and 08, Duncan was 0.391 (9 for 22) on game closing shots, with a FG% rank of #6 out of the players with the top 22 (8 players were tied for the top 15) made clutch FGs.

During the same stretch, Manu made 6 of 21 shots for 28.6% (not in top 22), Nowitzki made 12 of 37 for 32.4% (13 of the top 22), and Garnett was 9 of 33 for 27.3% (19 of the top 22. Only Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, and Kobe Bryant were worse).

In the playoffs, Duncan and Ginobili were both 2 for 6 in the clutch stats.

[Phillip]

Google 'dirk or kg poll' and look click on the first three links.

There I directed you to three of them. Now your turn, direct me to all the people picking Dirk over KG.

Yes, these are the same types of people that still do polls and say Kobe > Lebron, if you do the same kind of google search. I'm sure we should put a lot of stock into these polls, and use them as factual grounds of who is superior. :toast

[Biernutz]

All you Dirk Fans---Do you know who the Mav's gave up to get Dirk?

[apalisoc_9]

All you Dirk Fans---Do you know who the Mav's gave up to get Dirk?

Who was it...

[TrainOfThought5]

KG. He played on both sides of the court.

[ezau]

Dirk can kill you in so many ways it's not even funny.:lol That's something you can't say about KG, tbh.

[ezau]

Who was it...

Robert Traylor

[Biernutz]

Who was it...

Don Nelson worked out draft day deals with the Milwaukee Bucks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Bucks) and the Phoenix Suns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Suns): the Mavericks wanted Nowitzki and Suns reserve point guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_guard) Steve Nash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Nash); the Bucks desired muscular forward Robert Traylor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Traylor), who was projected to be drafted before Nowitzki; and the Suns had set their sights on forward Pat Garrity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Garrity), who was projected as a low first round pick. In the draft, the Mavericks drafted Traylor with their sixth pick, and the Bucks selected Nowitzki with their ninth and Garrity with their nineteenth pick. The Mavericks then traded Traylor to the Bucks for Nowitzki and Garrity, and they in return traded the latter to Phoenix for Nash.

Dirk was traded for Tractor Traylor......guess they got a good deal

[apalisoc_9]

Don Nelson worked out draft day deals with the Milwaukee Bucks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Bucks) and the Phoenix Suns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Suns): the Mavericks wanted Nowitzki and Suns reserve point guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_guard) Steve Nash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Nash); the Bucks desired muscular forward Robert Traylor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Traylor), who was projected to be drafted before Nowitzki; and the Suns had set their sights on forward Pat Garrity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Garrity), who was projected as a low first round pick. In the draft, the Mavericks drafted Traylor with their sixth pick, and the Bucks selected Nowitzki with their ninth and Garrity with their nineteenth pick. The Mavericks then traded Traylor to the Bucks for Nowitzki and Garrity, and they in return traded the latter to Phoenix for Nash.

Dirk was traded for Tractor Traylor......guess they got a good deal

I was probably 8 years old then :lol

[FkLA]

Duncan wasn't a good closer? I'd say he wasn't great, but he was most definitely good.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Of the data between 03 and 08, Duncan was 0.391 (9 for 22) on game closing shots, with a FG% rank of #6 out of the players with the top 22 (8 players were tied for the top 15) made clutch FGs.

During the same stretch, Manu made 6 of 21 shots for 28.6% (not in top 22), Nowitzki made 12 of 37 for 32.4% (13 of the top 22), and Garnett was 9 of 33 for 27.3% (19 of the top 22. Only Joe Johnson, Jamal Crawford, and Kobe Bryant were worse).

In the playoffs, Duncan and Ginobili were both 2 for 6 in the clutch stats.

More than just game winning shots imo. Manu had the ball in his hands in crunchtime for a reason, he wasnt as lethal of a scorer as some other closers but he always made the right play. Duncans game winner against the Sonics in 05 was set up by Manu, the three against Phoenix set up by Manu, etc.

Duncan wasnt a choker or anything but his FT woes coupled with Manu being a badass kept the ball out of his hands in crunchtime.


Yes, these are the same types of people that still do polls and say Kobe > Lebron, if you do the same kind of google search. I'm sure we should put a lot of stock into these polls, and use them as factual grounds of who is superior. :toast

facepalm.gif

Homers like you are the worst imo.

[ambchang]

More than just game winning shots imo. Manu had the ball in his hands in crunchtime for a reason, he wasnt as lethal of a scorer as some other closers but he always made the right play. Duncans game winner against the Sonics in 05 was set up by Manu, the three against Phoenix set up by Manu, etc.

How can Duncan score without the ball in his hands? Duncan also had 3 assists, and shot 6 for 7 from the FT line with 1 TO in crunch time in the regular season (so much for FT woes), and 1 assist and 0 TO in the playoffs.
Ginobili had 3 assists, shot 4 for 7 from the FT line with 4 TO in the regular season, and 2 assists, shot 1 for 2 from the FT line and had 1 TO in the playoffs.

I am not saying Ginobili sucked in crunch time, I am saying that Duncan didn't. And yes, Duncan got the ball a LOT in the clutch, and so did Ginobili. There is no point putting down Duncan just to prove your point.

As for your examples, Duncan nailed the shots with a Manu assist. Manu is a guard, of course he will handle the ball, not only in crunch time, but also throughout the entire game. Do you want to see Duncan bring the ball up court and run pick and rolls?



Duncan wasnt a choker or anything but his FT woes coupled with Manu being a badass kept the ball out of his hands in crunchtime.



facepalm.gif

Homers like you are the worst imo.

I have no problems with people saying KG > Dirk, or Dirk > KG. To me, they are very very close in overall impact, but they are pretty much polar opposites as players. What I do find to be an issue is that it is definitive that one is better than the other, and there is no room for argument. Throughout their entire careers, they put up very similar numbers and impact to their respective teams.

[Phillip]

I have no problems with people saying KG > Dirk, or Dirk > KG. To me, they are very very close in overall impact, but they are pretty much polar opposites as players. What I do find to be an issue is that it is definitive that one is better than the other, and there is no room for argument. Throughout their entire careers, they put up very similar numbers and impact to their respective teams.

This.

Morons like FkLA say I'm a homer, and I've clearly stated that each player is better for different purposes.

[AchillesHeel]

Mavs in 2011 maybe wouldn't win with KG, but 2008 Celtics probably would not win with Dirk in place of Garnett

it depends on the supporting casts.

I think KG's impact is probably greater.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/lebron.jpg

lol, 2011 KG with 2011 Mavs = no title

Dirk BEASTED through the playoffs, without his offense, there's no way the Mavs beat the Heat. KG is a great defender, but ever since 2010 he's gotten worse by the year. The Mavs were build around Dirk, the Celtics weren't build around KG offensively. 08 Celtics had so many great defenders and shooters, I think with Dirk they still win it all in 08 and probably in 09 as well because KG was injured that year.

2011 Dirk was something else in the playoffs, 28 ppg 8 reb 2.5 ast 48,5% FG 46% 3PT 94% FT 60,9% TS 25.2 PER, there's no way KG in 2011 would make up for that kind of production.

[diego]

In 99, 01, and 02, the Wolves had 50 wins and made the playoffs each of those years, but had first round exits. The supporting cast?

Terrell Brandon 99/01 - A very solid guard who could score and rack up assists effectively, averaging around 15/8 in those seasons.
Chauncey Billups 01 - We all know how solid of a career Billups has had, and this season was when he began to gain steam for his career, with a solid season of 12/5.
Wally Sczerbiak 99/01/02 - One of the best shooters in the league during these years, and a very efficient scorer, including an all-star appearance.
Anthony Peeler 99/01/02 - Tenacious defender and a lethal spot up 3 point shooter, usually averaging around 9 ppg.
Joe Smith 99/01/02 - While a bust of a career, still a very solid bench big man, with per36 stats usually around 14/8.
Troy Hudson 02 - Solid scorer for a few years of his career, and this was one of them.

You act as if KG NEVER had any kind of talent around him, outside of 2004, and that Dirk ALWAYS had teams loaded with talent, when in fact, these teams were quite comparable (arguably superior) in talent to Dirk's supporting cast in 07-10.

in 07-10, dirk was 29-31, a bit past his prime maybe but pretty much his prime considering his style of play.
in 99-02, KG was 22-25, at that age dirk was arguably not even the star of his team.

for example in 01-02 (age 23) dirk (two time all star, 1 all nba 2nd 1 nba 3rd team) had:
finley (20.6 ppg, 5.2 reb, two time all star)
Nash (17.9 ppg, 7.7 ast, all star that season, 3rd team all nba)
Van exel (13.2 ppg, 4.2 ast, former all star)
juwan howard (12.9 ppg, 7.4 reb, former all star, former 3rd team all nba)
lafrentz (10.8 ppg, 7.4 reb, 3rd overall pick)
tim hardaway (9.6 ppg, 3.7 ast, former all star, former all nba 1st team, 3x 2nd team, 3rd team)

age 23 KG (3x all star, 3rd team all nba, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defensive), 99-00:
terrel brandon (17.1ppg, 8.9 ast, 2 time all star 96 & 97 (like van exel or howard for the mavs))
Wally (11.6ppg, 3.7 reb, future all star)
malik sealy (11.3ppg, 4.3 reb)
joe smith (9.9 ppg, 6.2 reb, former 1st pick)
anthony peeler (9.8ppg, 2.4 ast)
sam mitchell (6.5ppg, 2.1 reb)

not a single all-nba 1st/2nd/3rd team player outside of KG.

The reason I compared 08 KG to 11 dirk is because people constantly say that dirk was amazingly dominant in 11 and that KG was just a sidekick in 08. But the stats dont back that up, on the contrary they say that KG was the better player in his championship run.

I dont believe in stats being the end all of these arguments. And I agree that they are close and there are valid reasons to prefer dirk to KG. But I dont think you can really make an argument that kg had comparable teams to dirk while with the wolves, nor that you can equate kg's lack of a go to move on offense with dirk not being half the defender KG is, nor that you can criticize kg's chokes and simultaneously ignore dirk's (06, 07, 10).

[diego]

not to mention, in 99 - 02 the west had brutal teams like the twin tower spurs (lost in 99 and 01 both times as 8th seed vs 1st), 3 peat lakers, stockton malone Jazz, sheed/sabonis blazers (lost in 00 as 6th seed vs 3rd). they lost against the mavs in '02 as the 5th seed vs the 4th (all of these best of 5 format). 07-10, the mavs lost in the 1st round to the hornets (lead by a 22 yr old chris paul), beat the manu-less, turd tower spurs in 09 only to lose to the melo nuggets in the 2nd round, then lost to the 7th seeded RJ infected spurs in ´10. I would argue that dirk's team underachieved more in that stretch than KG's, age difference aside.

[nowhereman523]

- In his prime, KG didn't even make an all-NBA team one year. How can you lay claim to a top-4 all time PF spot if, when healthy and in your absolute prime, you weren't even considered a top-6 forward in the league. What other "all-time" great wasn't even all-nba third team when healthy in their prime?

- In their only playoff matchup, Dirk out of his prime destroyed KG in his prime. KG's much vaunted defense did nothing to slow down Nowitzki. If his defense was such a weapon, why was it not utilized to slow down the Mavericks' greatest weapon?

- In 2004, before Dirk's peak, national pundits already considered him more valuable than KG - http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/020404

It's just KG fans that need to continue to relitigate this debate, and to reframe history. The facts speak for themselves. The Lakers almost traded MVP-level Shaq for Dirk. The Wolves traded KG for scraps.

[FkLA]

How can Duncan score without the ball in his hands? Duncan also had 3 assists, and shot 6 for 7 from the FT line with 1 TO in crunch time in the regular season (so much for FT woes), and 1 assist and 0 TO in the playoffs.
Ginobili had 3 assists, shot 4 for 7 from the FT line with 4 TO in the regular season, and 2 assists, shot 1 for 2 from the FT line and had 1 TO in the playoffs.

I am not saying Ginobili sucked in crunch time, I am saying that Duncan didn't. And yes, Duncan got the ball a LOT in the clutch, and so did Ginobili. There is no point putting down Duncan just to prove your point.

As for your examples, Duncan nailed the shots with a Manu assist. Manu is a guard, of course he will handle the ball, not only in crunch time, but also throughout the entire game. Do you want to see Duncan bring the ball up court and run pick and rolls?

Not putting Duncan down at all. My initial point was that Ginobili closed for the Spurs, in response to people trying to discredit KG because Pierce had to 'close for him'. Kobe did it for Shaq as well. Its really not that uncommon.


I have no problems with people saying KG > Dirk, or Dirk > KG. To me, they are very very close in overall impact, but they are pretty much polar opposites as players. What I do find to be an issue is that it is definitive that one is better than the other, and there is no room for argument. Throughout their entire careers, they put up very similar numbers and impact to their respective teams.

Personally I think its definitive. This is how I see it...Dirk is the better, more unstoppable offensive player but lets not act like KG was a slouch on that end. Everyone outside of homers like Phillip know that KG put up his points and drew his share of double teams to open up things for teammates. Add to that the fact that his arguably the best defensive PF of all-time and how can anyone say their impacts were the same? Early to mid 2000s it was Duncan and KG and then the rest of the PFs, prior to 2011 Dirk was nowhere near KG career wise. 2011 brought him closer but not on par imo.


This.

Morons like FkLA say I'm a homer, and I've clearly stated that each player is better for different purposes.

You absolutely are a homer, dipshit. The biggest one here.

[FkLA]

- In his prime, KG didn't even make an all-NBA team one year. How can you lay claim to a top-4 all time PF spot if, when healthy and in your absolute prime, you weren't even considered a top-6 forward in the league. What other "all-time" great wasn't even all-nba third team when healthy in their prime?

- In their only playoff matchup, Dirk out of his prime destroyed KG in his prime. KG's much vaunted defense did nothing to slow down Nowitzki. If his defense was such a weapon, why was it not utilized to slow down the Mavericks' greatest weapon?

- In 2004, before Dirk's peak, national pundits already considered him more valuable than KG - http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/020404

It's just KG fans that need to continue to relitigate this debate, and to reframe history. The facts speak for themselves. The Lakers almost traded MVP-level Shaq for Dirk. The Wolves traded KG for scraps.

Look at these dumbass homers coming out of the woodwork...

:cry the Lakers almost traded Shaq for Dirk :cry

[Phillip]

You absolutely are a homer, dipshit. The biggest one here.

cool comeback bro :tu

[ohmwrecker]

They are both worse than Tim Duncan.

[FkLA]

cool comeback bro :tu

thanks

[Phillip]

thanks
lol utsa

[FkLA]

lol utsa

lol utsa>no college

[Rogue]

college is overrated though unless you went to the top ones like Yale and Harvard, the rest ain't meaning shit no matter it's UCLA or UTSA. I wish I had chosen a badass major for my undergraduate years so I'd have also been making good $ now like my niggas m>s and DoK do :cry

[ambchang]

Not putting Duncan down at all. My initial point was that Ginobili closed for the Spurs, in response to people trying to discredit KG because Pierce had to 'close for him'. Kobe did it for Shaq as well. Its really not that uncommon.

They didn't close for the big guys, they handled the ball because they are guards. Statistics showed that Shaq was consistently closing games in the early 00s, so was Duncan. OTOH, Pierce closed for Garnett because Garnett couldn't. With the exception of that Sacramento game, I couldn't think of any big KG playoff closing games from an offensive standpoint.




Personally I think its definitive. This is how I see it...Dirk is the better, more unstoppable offensive player but lets not act like KG was a slouch on that end. Everyone outside of homers like Phillip know that KG put up his points and drew his share of double teams to open up things for teammates. Add to that the fact that his arguably the best defensive PF of all-time and how can anyone say their impacts were the same? Early to mid 2000s it was Duncan and KG and then the rest of the PFs, prior to 2011 Dirk was nowhere near KG career wise. 2011 brought him closer but not on par imo.

Statistics say otherwise. KG, outside of 03-04, never had a DWS season over 7 (he had a phenomenal 8 that one season, his next highest was 6). Duncan on the other hand, had 3 (with another two seasons of 6.9, and one with 6.8).

In terms of overall WS, Garnet had one phenomenal season (again, 03-04) of 18.2, which trumps any seasons Duncan or Dirk ever had, but his next highest were 16.1, 15.6, 14.9 and 12.9. Dirk's top five seasons were 17.7 , 16.3, 16.1, 15.6, and 14.6. The numbers are very comparable.

And Dirk is one of the, if not, the best offensive PF of all time, and he was at least decent on D (not as good as KG was offensively).


You absolutely are a homer, dipshit. The biggest one here.

[Phillip]

lol utsa>no college
obviously no, considering your crappy takes. oh yeah, and diaw > lee :rollin

[nowhereman523]

Look at these dumbass homers coming out of the woodwork...

:cry the Lakers almost traded Shaq for Dirk :cry

How many times do you have to lose this argument before you shut up?

[FkLA]

They didn't close for the big guys, they handled the ball because they are guards. Statistics showed that Shaq was consistently closing games in the early 00s, so was Duncan. OTOH, Pierce closed for Garnett because Garnett couldn't. With the exception of that Sacramento game, I couldn't think of any big KG playoff closing games from an offensive standpoint.

First off, let me say that KG is not as good as either Duncan or Shaq. And how exactly do you close when you dont have the ball in your hands? Thats the point, guards handling the rock for elite bigman is not that uncommon.

Also what do you consider a big offensive playoff game? KG was never an explosive scorer but pretty sure he averaged 20-25 ppg for Minny during his time there...most of his teams just sucked tbh.


Statistics say otherwise. KG, outside of 03-04, never had a DWS season over 7 (he had a phenomenal 8 that one season, his next highest was 6). Duncan on the other hand, had 3 (with another two seasons of 6.9, and one with 6.8).

In terms of overall WS, Garnet had one phenomenal season (again, 03-04) of 18.2, which trumps any seasons Duncan or Dirk ever had, but his next highest were 16.1, 15.6, 14.9 and 12.9. Dirk's top five seasons were 17.7 , 16.3, 16.1, 15.6, and 14.6. The numbers are very comparable.

And Dirk is one of the, if not, the best offensive PF of all time, and he was at least decent on D (not as good as KG was offensively).

Admittedly, Im not very familiar with the WS formula. But pretty sure winning games plays a big role in it, no? If so Im assuming it doesnt take into account quality of teammates. Otherwise imo theres no other reason why '03 KG (2nd behind Duncan in MVP voting) was nowhere near '04 KG who ended up winning it. I could probably look all this up to understand it better but Im pretty lazy tbh.

[FkLA]

obviously no, considering your crappy takes. oh yeah, and diaw > lee :rollin

That take has nothing on your Roddy take. Not to mention my takes are consistently better than yours imho.

Either way quality of basketball takes has nothing to do with whether college>no college tbh.


How many times do you have to lose this argument before you shut up?

Google 'Dirk or KG poll' tbh. Take a look at what people that arent blind homers like you think about it.

[Phillip]

Not to mention my takes are consistently better than yours imho.


:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin


Either way quality of basketball takes has nothing to do with whether college>no college tbh.

So in other words, you realize your takes are trash, and lol utsa

[FkLA]

:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

^Dunning-Kruger effect, benefactor (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=13284) jr, etc.

Youre the guy that thinks Kawhi is a Shane Battier/Tony Allen type of player tbh.


So in other words, you realize your takes are trash, and lol utsa

No I realize that even if my takes were worse than yours, which we all know they arent, your no college going ass still has no room to lol any college.

[nowhereman523]

Google 'Dirk or KG poll' tbh. Take a look at what people that arent blind homers like you think about it.

The only thing dumber than a random internet survey is your take. You also haven't responded to any of the facts in the above posts, such as national pundits takes from 2004, KG missing all-NBA teams in his prime, and getting crushed in the head to head. Again, how many times a year do you need to lose this argument?

[FkLA]

The only thing dumber than a random internet survey is your take. You also haven't responded to any of the facts in the above posts, such as national pundits takes from 2004, KG missing all-NBA teams in his prime, and getting crushed in the head to head. Again, how many times a year do you need to lose this argument?

Ive explained all this to you before, but Ill do it one last time you little homer:

1. National pundits? Thats one guy. There arent very many others that wouldve taken KG over Dirk in '04 and if they did theyre idiots. KG won the MVP that year, dipshit.

2. Maybe cause he was on a terrible team? Unless you are dumb enough to believe he went from being a perennial All-NBA player, inexplicably started 'sucking' that one year, then magically returned to being good again. What kind of dumbass argument is this, seriously? Arguments like these are why I say homers are the worst.

3. Great offense beats great defense, doesnt matter who you are. KG not being able to shutdown Dirk is another dumb homer argument. The Mavs destroyed the Wolves because they were the better team. Funny how KG's supporting casts are only taken into account when trying to discredit his title with Boston but conveniently ignored when looking at his poor results in Minny. Homer.

[FkLA]

And :lol at random internet survey.

What makes your opinion any better than these other fans opinions? If anything Id put more stock in theirs since they arent biased homers.

[benefactor]

I'm not sure what part of "stop tagging" is not getting through to you. Do you need a fucking Spanish translation?

I don't give a fuck about anything you have say. I don't want to engage you, I don't care about your dumb insults that you try to pass off as clever, I don't want to talk to you at all. Talking to you for a few minutes the other day was not an invitation for you to follow me around and tag me trying to constantly get my attention. Stick to talking to people that have yet to figure out that you should be spending your spare time behind a mower or spreading concrete instead of trying to debate anything.

[FkLA]

I'm not sure what part of "stop tagging" is not getting through to you. Do you need a fucking Spanish translation?

I don't give a fuck about anything you have say. I don't want to engage you, I don't care about your dumb insults that you try to pass off as clever, I don't want to talk to you at all. Talking to you for a few minutes the other day was not an invitation for you to follow me around and tag me trying to constantly get my attention. Stick to talking to people that have yet to figure out that you should be spending your spare time behind a mower or spreading concrete instead of trying to debate anything.

:lmao :lmao

[FkLA]

But seriously chill out, benefactor (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=13284). Im just fucking with you man, you get angry too easily tbh. :lol

[benefactor]

I'm not mad...and I don't care if you are fucking with me or whatever. .

It's simple...stop tagging me in posts. The only reason you would do it is to get my attention and I've told you repeatedly that I don't care. There are literally hundreds of other people on this site you can talk to and bother. Continuing to bother someone who doesn't give a fuck about anything you have to say doesn't make much sense.

This conversation is over. In the nicest, most respectful way I can say it...pretty please...with sugar on top...go tag someone who gives a fuck.

[FkLA]

I dont know, benefactor. This second post was a little more relaxed but your first one had steam coming out of it imho.

Kinda hard to claim you dont care one way or the other when youre not only letting it bother you but posting long rants about it tbh. Personally I would recommend maybe not reading my posts at all, even the ones where I tag you. Maybe put me on ignore? Something to help you deal with it because you dont seem to be doing a good job of it on your own imo.

[RD2191]

:lmao

[nowhereman523]

Ive explained all this to you before, but Ill do it one last time you little homer:

1. National pundits? Thats one guy. There arent very many others that wouldve taken KG over Dirk in '04 and if they did theyre idiots. KG won the MVP that year, dipshit.

2. Maybe cause he was on a terrible team? Unless you are dumb enough to believe he went from being a perennial All-NBA player, inexplicably started 'sucking' that one year, then magically returned to being good again. What kind of dumbass argument is this, seriously? Arguments like these are why I say homers are the worst.

3. Great offense beats great defense, doesnt matter who you are. KG not being able to shutdown Dirk is another dumb homer argument. The Mavs destroyed the Wolves because they were the better team. Funny how KG's supporting casts are only taken into account when trying to discredit his title with Boston but conveniently ignored when looking at his poor results in Minny. Homer.

So what I'm seeing is not a single valid reason to take KG over Dirk.

Name another all-time guy that missed even the third all-nba team in his prime when healthy. Even Bean made second team with a far crappier supporting cast.

Blame the cast if you want to. I'm not gonna pick a guy based on hypotheticals when all the data we have says he got crushed by the other dude.

And the reason his supporting cast is taken into account is because he could never, in his career, do crap without 2 or 3 other all-star level guys on his team. Dirk did far more with far less, consistently (yet, somehow, is harder to build around?). This debate was over even before 2011.

[Rogue]

Hablo un poco de Espanol solo, no estoy buen suficiente para traducion.

[ambchang]

First off, let me say that KG is not as good as either Duncan or Shaq. And how exactly do you close when you dont have the ball in your hands? Thats the point, guards handling the rock for elite bigman is not that uncommon.

Also what do you consider a big offensive playoff game? KG was never an explosive scorer but pretty sure he averaged 20-25 ppg for Minny during his time there...most of his teams just sucked tbh.

KG is not as good as either Duncan or Shaq is a given, but Duncan and Shaq had the balls in their hands, they didn't handle the ball, which is true for every single big man in NBA history. Even a guy like Bill Walton didn't bring the ball up the court. Duncan and Shaq finishes plenty, and the stats showed it. Duncan has been finishing at the same rate Ginobili did, and I recalled a stat during Shaq's three peat that his clutch stats were one of the top three in the league, ahead of Kobe.

As for big offensive playoff game, I admit it is subjective, but really other than the phenomenal 32/21 closing game he had against Sacramento, I can't think of one single clutch game from him. For 12 seasons between the 1999-2000 and 10-11 seasons, Garnett played 93 playoff games, and scored over 30 points in only 9 of them. That is 10.7% of the games. This is Garnett's absolute prime years, and spanned his years for the Wolves and Celtics.

During the same stretch, which included years where Dirk was not in his prime, Dirk played 124 playoff games and scored 30 points or more in 42 games, including 6 games of 40+ and 1 game of 50. This means that in 33.9% of his playoff, Dirk had 30+ points, that is a phenomenal percentage. All this talk about Dirk being a choker is pure BS, the dude is clutch, and I have been saying this despite the 06 and 07 playoffs, he just got ganged up.


Admittedly, Im not very familiar with the WS formula. But pretty sure winning games plays a big role in it, no? If so Im assuming it doesnt take into account quality of teammates. Otherwise imo theres no other reason why '03 KG (2nd behind Duncan in MVP voting) was nowhere near '04 KG who ended up winning it. I could probably look all this up to understand it better but Im pretty lazy tbh.

WS measures the supposed impact of a player on the offensive and defensive side to estimate how many games a player was responsible for winning the teams games. Sure it's not an exact science, and there are exceptions, but overall, it provides a very good guidance to which player is better. A player, even a superstar, requires a certain set of teammates to maximize your potential, so naturally quality teammates does help with your WS, but it doesn't mean that having the best teammates will lead to better winshares. Garnett had way better teammates with the Celtics, but the Celtics didn't center their entire offense and defense around him (coupled with the fact that Garnett was older then as well) so his WS was less than those of his Wolves day.

A player with a high WS on a winning team usually translates to a player with the ability to have a winning team constructed around him. So a consistently high WS speaks to a player who is relatively versatile and easy to build around, while a player with wildly fluctuating WS are those who are system based.

Taking Garnett, Dirk, and Duncan as comparisons. During their primes, they have approximate WS ranges of:
Garnett: 11.6 to 18.3, with three fantastic seasons while they had Cassell and Sprewell.
Dirk: 11.5 to 17.7, but he had consistent runs of 13 to 15 in there with many different types of teammates.
Duncan: 10.1 to 17.8, and again, with consistent runs of 13 ws, with no sudden ups and downs. Also note that Duncan plays generally less minutes as part of the Spurs strategy

I tried to put in Shaq, but he didn't play full strength or were injured quite often, so it's really tough to put that in perspective.

[FkLA]

KG is not as good as either Duncan or Shaq is a given, but Duncan and Shaq had the balls in their hands, they didn't handle the ball, which is true for every single big man in NBA history. Even a guy like Bill Walton didn't bring the ball up the court. Duncan and Shaq finishes plenty, and the stats showed it. Duncan has been finishing at the same rate Ginobili did, and I recalled a stat during Shaq's three peat that his clutch stats were one of the top three in the league, ahead of Kobe.

What is closing games to you mean, Amb? Like I said earlier to me its more than just finishing a play set up by Manu/Kobe. Closing would be if they threw the ball into the post and let either guy go to work. Ive watched every playoff game and most regular season games over the past decade and honestly dont remember that being done often. It was probably even less often for Shaq since he was a 50% FT shooter.


As for big offensive playoff game, I admit it is subjective, but really other than the phenomenal 32/21 closing game he had against Sacramento, I can't think of one single clutch game from him. For 12 seasons between the 1999-2000 and 10-11 seasons, Garnett played 93 playoff games, and scored over 30 points in only 9 of them. That is 10.7% of the games. This is Garnett's absolute prime years, and spanned his years for the Wolves and Celtics.

During the same stretch, which included years where Dirk was not in his prime, Dirk played 124 playoff games and scored 30 points or more in 42 games, including 6 games 40+ and 1 game of 50. This means that in 33.9% of his playoff, Dirk had 30+ points, that is a phenomenal percentage. All this talk about Dirk being a choker is pure BS, the dude is clutch, and I have been saying this despite the 06 and 07 playoffs, he just got ganged up.

KG is not as explosive of a scorer, he doesnt have a move thats as unstoppable as Dirks fadeaway. Thats a given. Pretty sure KG eats up Dirk in rebounds, defense and even assists though.


WS measures the supposed impact of a player on the offensive and defensive side to estimate how many games a player was responsible for winning the teams games. Sure it's not an exact science, and there are exceptions, but overall, it provides a very good guidance to which player is better. A player, even a superstar, requires a certain set of teammates to maximize your potential, so naturally quality teammates does help with your WS, but it doesn't mean that having the best teammates will lead to better winshares. Garnett had way better teammates with the Celtics, but the Celtics didn't center their entire offense and defense around him (coupled with the fact that Garnett was older then as well) so his WS was less than those of his Wolves day.

A player with a high WS on a winning team usually translates to a player with the ability to have a winning team constructed around him. So a consistently high WS speaks to a player who is relatively versatile and easy to build around, while a player with wildly fluctuating WS are those who are system based.

Taking Garnett, Dirk, and Duncan as comparisons. During their primes, they have approximate WS ranges of:
Garnett: 11.6 to 18.3, with three fantastic seasons while they had Cassell and Sprewell.
Dirk: 11.5 to 17.7, but he had consistent runs of 13 to 15 in there with many different types of teammates.
Duncan: 10.1 to 17.8, and again, with consistent runs of 13 ws, with no sudden ups and downs. Also note that Duncan plays generally less minutes as part of the Spurs strategy

I tried to put in Shaq, but he didn't play full strength or were injured quite often, so it's really tough to put that in perspective.

Doesnt this also speak volumes about what KG couldve done with good supporting casts? His win shares are significantly higher than both Dirk and Duncans (Im guessing they mightve even been the best in the league for that year). His teammates were consistently bad in Minny except for that one year, and the WS show that. Its dumb to discredit his '08 title because his teammates were so good but completely ignore that his teammates in Minny were equally as bad for the majority of his time there. Its also not truth to say he "needs more talent than Dirk does to win". Did he have more talent than Dirk did during 2011? Sure, but if he had something similar to his '04 squad throughout his time in Minny he couldve won one. He was the best player in the league, his team was the 1st seed and they never truly got a chance because of Cassell's injury. He didnt 'need' two HOFs to help him win him a title like these homers like to claim.

[LkrFan]

_irk plays one side of the court. Give me KG.

[nowhereman523]

_irk plays one side of the court. Give me KG.

so much stupid in your post

[Jodelo]

so much stupid in your post

Still mad that neither Kobe, Gasol or even the Lakers ever won a game against Dirk in the Playoffs!

[irishock]

Amazing how prime Dirk actually finished better than Kobe in advanced defensive stats, yet Kobe gets All-D selections

[LkrFan]

Still mad that neither Kobe, Gasol or even the Lakers ever won a game against Dirk in the Playoffs!
Not even close to being right son. Why would I be mad at a "one and done" player like _irk? ;)

I like 2-way players - always have. _irk is a better offensive player but KG is more complete because he was dominant defensively and would still give you 20-10. That's the difference for me.

[ambchang]

What is closing games to you mean, Amb? Like I said earlier to me its more than just finishing a play set up by Manu/Kobe. Closing would be if they threw the ball into the post and let either guy go to work. Ive watched every playoff game and most regular season games over the past decade and honestly dont remember that being done often. It was probably even less often for Shaq since he was a 50% FT shooter.

Closing means to take a team to a win in a close game by doing what is necessary. Could be offensive, could be defensive. Duncan does both. And I do not agree with how Duncan just finishes, he creates as well working the ball in the low post. How do you explain his assists if he was just catching and flushing.

jnBYBnSgt10

Not the best video as it was mostly around the Spurs rallying in 2006 vs. the Mavs, and it included a lot of plays that are not last second.
1st play. Bowen got the rebound, outlets to Ginobili, pass to Duncan for a dunk. Not much closing to speak of.
2nd play. Ginobili passes to Duncan, he worked the post, drew the entire Mavs team and still scored with foul.
3rd play. Duncan got ball in the low post, drew a double team to open up the lane, passed the NVE, who drove the lane and passed the ball back to Duncan for the layup and foul.
4th play. Duncan got the ball in the post, backed down the defender and scored.
5th play. Ginobili missed a floater. Duncan rebounded and scored.
6th play. Ginobili threw the entry pass. Duncan put a few moves and scored.
7th play. Ginobili threw an entry pass. Duncan did his work and drew another defender, kicked the ball out to Finley for a three.
8th play. Ginobili threw an entry pass. Duncan did his work and drew another defender, scored with a foul.
9th play. Ginobili threw an entry pass. Duncan drew the double, kicked it back to Ginobili for a wide open 3.

Only one of the plays were created by someone else (Bowen and Ginobili), everything else was a Duncan play, and Ginobili threw the entry pass most of the time. I would say Duncan closed this game.

It's no secret that the Spurs played 4down for the longest time with Duncan taking the ball in the post in both clutch and non-clutch situations. It's the Spurs most reliable play for half a decade with Duncan there to create for himself and his teammates.

As for Shaq, 50% from the FT line is as good as 50% from the FG. That's a pretty good percentage. Hack and Shaq is best used mid game to disrupt the other team's momentum.


KG is not as explosive of a scorer, he doesnt have a move thats as unstoppable as Dirks fadeaway. Thats a given. Pretty sure KG eats up Dirk in rebounds, defense and even assists though.

Dirk's rebounds and defense is widely underrated. It's obviously not as great as KG's, but I wouldn't say KG eats Dirk up in either of


[QUOTE=FkLA;6886847]Doesnt this also speak volumes about what KG couldve done with good supporting casts? His win shares are significantly higher than both Dirk and Duncans (Im guessing they mightve even been the best in the league for that year). His teammates were consistently bad in Minny except for that one year, and the WS show that. Its dumb to discredit his '08 title because his teammates were so good but completely ignore that his teammates in Minny were equally as bad for the majority of his time there. Its also not truth to say he "needs more talent than Dirk does to win". Did he have more talent than Dirk did during 2011? Sure, but if he had something similar to his '04 squad throughout his time in Minny he couldve won one. He was the best player in the league, his team was the 1st seed and they never truly got a chance because of Cassell's injury. He didnt 'need' two HOFs to help him win him a title like these homers like to claim.

No it actually doesn't. KG had ONE season where he had a better WS than Duncan or Dirk. Both Duncan and Dirk had better 2nd best 3rd best, etc ... WS seasons. It speaks to KG being a difficult player to build around/system player.

Dirk carried that 2011 Mavs team offensively, Duncan did it offensively and defensively in 03. KG anchored the defense in 08, but Pierce carried them offensively that year. Garnett is just not good enough offensively to be a #1 option on a championship team, both Duncan and Dirk proved that they were.

[nowhereman523]

Not even close to being right son. Why would I be mad at a "one and done" player like _irk? ;)

I like 2-way players - always have. _irk is a better offensive player but KG is more complete because he was dominant defensively and would still give you 20-10. That's the difference for me.

SO MUCH STUPID IN YOUR POST

[FkLA]

Closing means to take a team to a win in a close game by doing what is necessary. Could be offensive, could be defensive. Duncan does both. And I do not agree with how Duncan just finishes, he creates as well working the ball in the low post. How do you explain his assists if he was just catching and flushing.

jnBYBnSgt10

Not the best video as it was mostly around the Spurs rallying in 2006 vs. the Mavs, and it included a lot of plays that are not last second.
1st play. Bowen got the rebound, outlets to Ginobili, pass to Duncan for a dunk. Not much closing to speak of.
2nd play. Ginobili passes to Duncan, he worked the post, drew the entire Mavs team and still scored with foul.
3rd play. Duncan got ball in the low post, drew a double team to open up the lane, passed the NVE, who drove the lane and passed the ball back to Duncan for the layup and foul.
4th play. Duncan got the ball in the post, backed down the defender and scored.
5th play. Ginobili missed a floater. Duncan rebounded and scored.
6th play. Ginobili threw the entry pass. Duncan put a few moves and scored.
7th play. Ginobili threw an entry pass. Duncan did his work and drew another defender, kicked the ball out to Finley for a three.
8th play. Ginobili threw an entry pass. Duncan did his work and drew another defender, scored with a foul.
9th play. Ginobili threw an entry pass. Duncan drew the double, kicked it back to Ginobili for a wide open 3.

Only one of the plays were created by someone else (Bowen and Ginobili), everything else was a Duncan play, and Ginobili threw the entry pass most of the time. I would say Duncan closed this game.

It's no secret that the Spurs played 4down for the longest time with Duncan taking the ball in the post in both clutch and non-clutch situations. It's the Spurs most reliable play for half a decade with Duncan there to create for himself and his teammates.

As for Shaq, 50% from the FT line is as good as 50% from the FG. That's a pretty good percentage. Hack and Shaq is best used mid game to disrupt the other team's momentum.

KG did a lot of the same then. Its not like he disappeared during 4th quarters, he did lack a truly unstoppable move (his fadeaway was close but not there) to go to in last second situations though imo. Yall act like he was a jump shooter, he actually had a solid post game and drew plenty of attention away from his (mediocre) teammates--theres a reason he averaged 5+ apg for so many seasons in Minny. He also had the ability to take players off the dribble.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Bn5cpO4LA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZdXQIezguo


Dirk's rebounds and defense is widely underrated. It's obviously not as great as KG's, but I wouldn't say KG eats Dirk up in either of

KG absolutely eats Dirk up on D. Underrated or not, Dirk is average at best...KG on the other hand is arguably the best defensive PF of all-time. Id also be willing to bet KG has a hell of alot more 15+ rebound games than Dirk tbh.


No it actually doesn't. KG had ONE season where he had a better WS than Duncan or Dirk. Both Duncan and Dirk had better 2nd best 3rd best, etc ... WS seasons. It speaks to KG being a difficult player to build around/system player.

Dirk carried that 2011 Mavs team offensively, Duncan did it offensively and defensively in 03. KG anchored the defense in 08, but Pierce carried them offensively that year. Garnett is just not good enough offensively to be a #1 option on a championship team, both Duncan and Dirk proved that they were.

No, I know it was just that one season. Thats what I meant to say but didnt phrase it right.

His win shares being higher than anything Duncan or Dirk has ever posted (and Im assuming the best in the league in 2004) absolutely speaks volumes about what he couldve done if he had similar help throughout his time in Minny. Dude is far from a system player. He happened to win alongside two future HOFs just like Bron/Duncan did but that doesnt mean he wasnt good enough to win with something closer to what he had in 2004. That team never had a real chance at continuing their regular season success because of Cassell's injury, KG carried them past the Kings and got two wins against the Lakers playing PG. I dont even like the guy, hes an asshole and all that, but I dont see how anyone can say if he had talent similar to what Dirk/Duncan had that he wouldnt have enjoyed a hell of alot more success in Minny than what he ended up having.

Pierce didnt "carry" anything btw. KG led the Cs in scoring in the regular season (by like a point) and Pierce led in the postseason (by like a point). At worst it was 1a and 1b. KG was the guy that was 2nd in MVP voting in '08, doesnt really matter who won the FMVP...that was his team. A very talented one, but his nonetheless.

[ambchang]

KG did a lot of the same then. Its not like he disappeared during 4th quarters, he did lack a truly unstoppable move (his fadeaway was close but not there) to go to in last second situations though imo. Yall act like he was a jump shooter, he actually had a solid post game and drew plenty of attention away from his (mediocre) teammates--theres a reason he averaged 5+ apg for so many seasons in Minny. He also had the ability to take players off the dribble.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Bn5cpO4LA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZdXQIezguo

I am not saying KG is a jump shooter, and I am not saying that he had no offensive game, but compared to a Dirk or a Duncan, he has ways to go especially in the clutch. For example, in KG's most accomplished season (2004), 73% of his shots in the clutch were jump shots, this compared to a Duncan who attempted 43% of his shots in the paint in 2008 (can't find the other season stats). The problem with KG's clutch game isn't that it isn't varied, KG's offensive game is probably more varied than Dirk's, it's just that it's easier to gang up on and defend, similar to what David Robinson's game was during his prime. Dirk has that awkward off foot jump shot that, no matter what you do, cannot be stopped. KG doesn't have a move like that.


KG absolutely eats Dirk up on D. Underrated or not, Dirk is average at best...KG on the other hand is arguably the best defensive PF of all-time. Id also be willing to bet KG has a hell of alot more 15+ rebound games than Dirk tbh.

I am sure as well, but the problem is finding a defensive anchor is "easier" than finding an offensive anchor. It's just the way it is.



No, I know it was just that one season. Thats what I meant to say but didnt phrase it right.

His win shares being higher than anything Duncan or Dirk has ever posted (and Im assuming the best in the league in 2004) absolutely speaks volumes about what he couldve done if he had similar help throughout his time in Minny. Dude is far from a system player. He happened to win alongside two future HOFs just like Bron/Duncan did but that doesnt mean he wasnt good enough to win with something closer to what he had in 2004. That team never had a real chance at continuing their regular season success because of Cassell's injury, KG carried them past the Kings and got two wins against the Lakers playing PG. I dont even like the guy, hes an asshole and all that, but I dont see how anyone can say if he had talent similar to what Dirk/Duncan had that he wouldnt have enjoyed a hell of alot more success in Minny than what he ended up having.

That one spike season speaks to how KG requires a very specific set of teammates to maximize his skills. He is a system player in the sense that David Robinson was a system player. You can build phenomenal teams around them in the regular season, but comes the playoffs, when teams have the ability to gang up on them and exploit the weakness of the team, they could be shut down. Duncan on the other hand was very versatile and can dominate in multiple different ways. I feel Dirk is the same way as a "system" player, who requires a big to cover for his defensive short-comings, but again, finding a big defensive anchor is easier (and cheaper) to find than a big time offensive player.


Pierce didnt "carry" anything btw. KG led the Cs in scoring in the regular season (by like a point) and Pierce led in the postseason (by like a point). At worst it was 1a and 1b. KG was the guy that was 2nd in MVP voting in '08, doesnt really matter who won the FMVP...that was his team. A very talented one, but his nonetheless.

Perhaps "carry" was too strong a word, but Pierce was responsible for more of the Boston's offense. In the 2008 season, he scored 1570 points and had 363 assists, given that some of those assists are three pointers, I have used the Boston team ratio to approximate the points scored off of those assists, and the total points generated by Pierce for the season was 3167 points (38.4% of Boston's offense) vs. 2410 (29%) by Garnett.

In the playoffs, those numbers became 1175 points (42%) and 1016 points (37%).

Pierce was most definitely more responsible for Boston's points, and by a noticeable margin at that.

[FkLA]

I am not saying KG is a jump shooter, and I am not saying that he had no offensive game, but compared to a Dirk or a Duncan, he has ways to go especially in the clutch. For example, in KG's most accomplished season (2004), 73% of his shots in the clutch were jump shots, this compared to a Duncan who attempted 43% of his shots in the paint in 2008 (can't find the other season stats). The problem with KG's clutch game isn't that it isn't varied, KG's offensive game is probably more varied than Dirk's, it's just that it's easier to gang up on and defend, similar to what David Robinson's game was during his prime. Dirk has that awkward off foot jump shot that, no matter what you do, cannot be stopped. KG doesn't have a move like that.

Of course hes going to have a higher jumpshot percentage, just like Im sure a good three point shooter has a higher three point percentage than KG. Duncan has a better post game, KG had more range on his jumpshot and could handle the rock on the perimeter--it makes sense and doesnt really tell me much.


I am sure as well, but the problem is finding a defensive anchor is "easier" than finding an offensive anchor. It's just the way it is.

Sure, its a lot easier to get ahold of a Chandler than it is a Dirk. But KG isnt a Chandler, hes a Chandler+ that also happens to give you 20-25 ppg on the other end. Now those are hard to find.


That one spike season speaks to how KG requires a very specific set of teammates to maximize his skills. He is a system player in the sense that David Robinson was a system player. You can build phenomenal teams around them in the regular season, but comes the playoffs, when teams have the ability to gang up on them and exploit the weakness of the team, they could be shut down. Duncan on the other hand was very versatile and can dominate in multiple different ways. I feel Dirk is the same way as a "system" player, who requires a big to cover for his defensive short-comings, but again, finding a big defensive anchor is easier (and cheaper) to find than a big time offensive player.

Other than '04, when were KGs teams ever favored to do anything in the postseason? They were 8th seeds/lower seeds the majority of his time there. The little success they did have was for the most part thanks to him, the shortcomings were despite his dominance. The dude literally never had a phenomenal team that faltered in the playoffs because of his shortcomings...KG put up his numbers and his lower seeded teams lost to teams that were simply better.

Some people like to act like he absolutely needs two HOFs to win. Im saying that is far from fact. There is a big gap between what he had in Minny and what he had in Boston, I think he couldve enjoyed success with a supporting cast that was somewhere in between that gap. His '04 team is a great example.


Perhaps "carry" was too strong a word, but Pierce was responsible for more of the Boston's offense. In the 2008 season, he scored 1570 points and had 363 assists, given that some of those assists are three pointers, I have used the Boston team ratio to approximate the points scored off of those assists, and the total points generated by Pierce for the season was 3167 points (38.4% of Boston's offense) vs. 2410 (29%) by Garnett.

In the playoffs, those numbers became 1175 points (42%) and 1016 points (37%).

Pierce was most definitely more responsible for Boston's points, and by a noticeable margin at that.

Well, Pierce plays in the perimeter and handles the rock a lot more man. Of course he'll have more assists. I still maintain that at worst it was 1a and 1b, and that taking into account overall impact it was KGs team tbh.

[Deuce Bigalow]

"I suppose an argument could be made for Pau" .....

[Katherine Robinson]

Do we rank Dirk and KG above Malone?

[Leetonidas]

Do we rank Dirk and KG above Malone?

I would tbh. Malone and KG are good comparisons because they both have a reputation of choking in the biggest moments but KG was one of the best defenders of all-time and impacted the game more than Malone imo, plus he has a ring which is always going to be a stain on Malone's legacy. However, what Dirk did in 2011 is far more impressive than anything Malone/Garnett did in their entire careers imo and that puts him above them. It's not like he was garbage leading up to that season either. He was not an inept defensive player like some made him out to be and he was a great rebounder especially in the playoffs. But his offensive game at his size was completely unguardable and when he was on he was impossible to stop by any player. I value two-way players very much when looking at comparisons but when a player is so dominant on offense and at least an average defender that is hard to pick against. Dirk's clutch play is legendary. Plus a big man being able to shoot free throws at such a high percentage is also a plus.

imo it's

1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Garnett
4. Malone

[diego]

I am sure as well, but the problem is finding a defensive anchor is "easier" than finding an offensive anchor. It's just the way it is.


Ive already been laughed off for arguing this (from the same topic) but Ill ask it again. Where are the cheap easy to find defensive anchors? Cuban was able to find and keep one for all of one of dirk's 15 years in the league. Doesnt seem cheap or easy to me. If they are so cheap and easy to find, then why are 25 teams desperate to find one? Duncan, KG, Chandler, Howard, Noah, Bogut, Asik, Gasol, Hibbert, who am I missing, Lebron? Larry sanders :lol ? What are their average salaries? If you are going to consider trash like shawn bradley/dampier a defensive anchor equivalent to a KG, then why shouldnt I do the same with lamarcus aldridge or a monta ellis' offense and make it equivalent to dirk's? Bottom line is that good bigs are extremely rare these days, and I would say especially defensive bigs. much easier to find aldridge/lee/griffin types who love to score but suck on D. Hell of the guys I listed, NONE are comparable to prime Duncan / KG.

And like FkLA said, KG is not just a defensive anchor. He also has a good offensive game, good enough to carry a bad team through the season / be a 2nd-3rd option for a championship team. Hell half of the guys that I listed are either good all around players (gasol / howard / hibbert / bogut) or straight up HOF legends (duncan, KG, lebron). The cheapest of all of them is sanders and I think he is clearly a step below the others; then Asik at 8M per. all the rest are 12-14M+ per year. I just dont get this theory of GOOD defensive bigs being cheap and easy. I think nowadays its much easier to find wings that can score pretty damn well, though obviously not with dirk's 7ft advantage.

[Katherine Robinson]

I would tbh. Malone and KG are good comparisons because they both have a reputation of choking in the biggest moments but KG was one of the best defenders of all-time and impacted the game more than Malone imo, plus he has a ring which is always going to be a stain on Malone's legacy. However, what Dirk did in 2011 is far more impressive than anything Malone/Garnett did in their entire careers imo and that puts him above them. It's not like he was garbage leading up to that season either. He was not an inept defensive player like some made him out to be and he was a great rebounder especially in the playoffs. But his offensive game at his size was completely unguardable and when he was on he was impossible to stop by any player. I value two-way players very much when looking at comparisons but when a player is so dominant on offense and at least an average defender that is hard to pick against. Dirk's clutch play is legendary. Plus a big man being able to shoot free throws at such a high percentage is also a plus.

imo it's

1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Garnett
4. Malone

Solid take, I wonder what the Jazz nation sees in Malone - he was Stockton's puppet.

[nowhereman523]

Ive already been laughed off for arguing this (from the same topic) but Ill ask it again. Where are the cheap easy to find defensive anchors? Cuban was able to find and keep one for all of one of dirk's 15 years in the league. Doesnt seem cheap or easy to me. If they are so cheap and easy to find, then why are 25 teams desperate to find one? Duncan, KG, Chandler, Howard, Noah, Bogut, Asik, Gasol, Hibbert, who am I missing, Lebron? Larry sanders :lol ? What are their average salaries? If you are going to consider trash like shawn bradley/dampier a defensive anchor equivalent to a KG, then why shouldnt I do the same with lamarcus aldridge or a monta ellis' offense and make it equivalent to dirk's? Bottom line is that good bigs are extremely rare these days, and I would say especially defensive bigs. much easier to find aldridge/lee/griffin types who love to score but suck on D. Hell of the guys I listed, NONE are comparable to prime Duncan / KG.

And like FkLA said, KG is not just a defensive anchor. He also has a good offensive game, good enough to carry a bad team through the season / be a 2nd-3rd option for a championship team. Hell half of the guys that I listed are either good all around players (gasol / howard / hibbert / bogut) or straight up HOF legends (duncan, KG, lebron). The cheapest of all of them is sanders and I think he is clearly a step below the others; then Asik at 8M per. all the rest are 12-14M+ per year. I just dont get this theory of GOOD defensive bigs being cheap and easy. I think nowadays its much easier to find wings that can score pretty damn well, though obviously not with dirk's 7ft advantage.

Your point is taken, but look at the relative availability - if at any specific moment in the league's history you were to make a list of players good enough to be the best defensive player on a championship team and players good enough to be the best offensive player on a championship, the first list is almost certainly longer.

[Phillip]

If you are going to consider trash like shawn bradley/dampier a defensive anchor equivalent to a KG, then why shouldnt I do the same with lamarcus aldridge or a monta ellis' offense and make it equivalent to dirk's?

Because Lamarcus Aldridge and Monta Ellis didn't take a team with interior anchors like Marcus Camby, Biedrins, or Larry Sanders anywhere close to the finals. Dirk actually took inferior talents than the aforementioned in Erick Dampier and Desagana Diop to the Finals and nearly won it.


Cuban was able to find and keep one for all of one of dirk's 15 years in the league.

:rollin please tell me this is a joke.

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[diego]

Your point is taken, but look at the relative availability - if at any specific moment in the league's history you were to make a list of players good enough to be the best defensive player on a championship team and players good enough to be the best offensive player on a championship, the first list is almost certainly longer.

historically yes I'd agree. But definitely not for the last 10 years. Part of that is the rules have changed. Another part is that defenders will never have the fame, glory, contracts and groupies of scorers. But for a good solid 10 years the trend has been consistently in that direction- bigs are harder to find and therefore way more expensive regardless of talent, and most are better at scoring than defending, at the same time that perimeter scorers are becoming disposable. so at least in terms of availability / price, I dont see the argument but obviously a lot of those perimeter scorers are inefficient as hell and not at all comparable to someone like dirk or pierce.

in an earlier post you referenced the 2003 head to head match up, these were the rosters from the head to head series:
mavs (4th seed 57-25 record, 58M roster)
nowitzki (all nba 2nd team, all star)
finley
nash (3rd team all nba, all star)
van exel
lafrentz
najera
adrian griffin
greg buckner
wang zhi zhi

vs
wolves (5th seed, 50-32, 55M roster)
garnett (1st team defense, 2nd team all nba, all star)
billups
szcerbiak (all star)
rasho
peeler
gary trent
joe smith
sam mitchell
felipe lopez

you cant possibly argue that the wolves had a better team and the difference maker was nowitzki v garnett; nowitzki just used his HC advantage and superior roster to win a series he was supposed to win (the same way that KG did in 08). and you cant argue otherwise when stephen jackson and jason richardson neutralized dirk's super offense in 07, despite the warriors being an 8th seed with no all stars and the mavs being 1st, having the mvp, the COY, 2 all stars. you just cant cherry pick like that.

[diego]

if your argument rests on the 06 finals run, you are already shooting yourself in the foot. that was a massively lucky run (i'll discount the WCSF because I'm partial but the WCF that year was a joke, and in the finals the joke was on you- a 61M roster lead by a 24 year old upsets prime dirk's home court advantage having 82.5M roster). If anything, 06 followed by 07 is proof that unless he got lucky, dirk was incapable of carrying the dampiers and diop's of the world, as it more often ended in upsets than finals runs.

[FkLA]

And like FkLA said, KG is not just a defensive anchor. He also has a good offensive game, good enough to carry a bad team through the season / be a 2nd-3rd option for a championship team.

Id go as far as saying hes good enough to be 1a/1b (which is essentially what he was in '08). Especially during his absolute prime, who knows what MVP KG couldve done if Cassell didnt get hurt that year or if Spree didnt fuck everything up with his 'feed my family' BS in the off-season. Solid points everywhere else though. :tu

[ambchang]

Of course hes going to have a higher jumpshot percentage, just like Im sure a good three point shooter has a higher three point percentage than KG. Duncan has a better post game, KG had more range on his jumpshot and could handle the rock on the perimeter--it makes sense and doesnt really tell me much.

But you'd have to admit that that's a lot of shots from outside for an inside player. The point is, you originally said Duncan didn't close games, he did. I think this thread has gone off topic.


Sure, its a lot easier to get ahold of a Chandler than it is a Dirk. But KG isnt a Chandler, hes a Chandler+ that also happens to give you 20-25 ppg on the other end. Now those are hard to find.

No doubt. I am not saying KG is a Dirk sidekick, but he is not, or at least no demonstrated that he is, a #1 scoring option, that's all I am saying. I am not comparing KG to Chandler, I am comparing him to Dirk.


Other than '04, when were KGs teams ever favored to do anything in the postseason? They were 8th seeds/lower seeds the majority of his time there. The little success they did have was for the most part thanks to him, the shortcomings were despite his dominance. The dude literally never had a phenomenal team that faltered in the playoffs because of his shortcomings...KG put up his numbers and his lower seeded teams lost to teams that were simply better.

His teams weren't necessarily worse than the 02/03/04 Duncan teams, or the late 00's Mavs teams. People like to say KG's support cast was horrible, but he had Brandon, Marbury, Wally Sczerbiak, Gugliotta, Joe Smith, Nesterovich, Billups, Joe Smith, and Hudson. Those aren't great players by any stretch of imagination, but those are not that much better than Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Barrea, and Bass.


Some people like to act like he absolutely needs two HOFs to win. Im saying that is far from fact. There is a big gap between what he had in Minny and what he had in Boston, I think he couldve enjoyed success with a supporting cast that was somewhere in between that gap. His '04 team is a great example.

If by success you mean a championship, then I doubt it. Even with a healthy Cassell, I can't see the Wolves getting past the Pistons. If by success you mean deep playoff runs, then he did it in 04. The 05 Wolves had the same team, but with Cassell and Sprewell getting older, didn't go anywhere.

[QUOTE=FkLA;6891950]Well, Pierce plays in the perimeter and handles the rock a lot more man. Of course he'll have more assists. I still maintain that at worst it was 1a and 1b, and that taking into account overall impact it was KGs team tbh.

He handled the ball more, but even with that metric, nobody on the Mavs compared to Dirk from an offensive standpoint, and nobody on the Spurs compared to Duncan in offensive output. Not to mention the entire Spurs offense was designed around Duncan until around 2005, and the entire Mavs offense designed around Dirk since a long time ago. I can't think of any successful offense that was built around Garnett.

[ambchang]

Ive already been laughed off for arguing this (from the same topic) but Ill ask it again. Where are the cheap easy to find defensive anchors? Cuban was able to find and keep one for all of one of dirk's 15 years in the league. Doesnt seem cheap or easy to me. If they are so cheap and easy to find, then why are 25 teams desperate to find one? Duncan, KG, Chandler, Howard, Noah, Bogut, Asik, Gasol, Hibbert, who am I missing, Lebron? Larry sanders :lol ? What are their average salaries? If you are going to consider trash like shawn bradley/dampier a defensive anchor equivalent to a KG, then why shouldnt I do the same with lamarcus aldridge or a monta ellis' offense and make it equivalent to dirk's? Bottom line is that good bigs are extremely rare these days, and I would say especially defensive bigs. much easier to find aldridge/lee/griffin types who love to score but suck on D. Hell of the guys I listed, NONE are comparable to prime Duncan / KG.

And like FkLA said, KG is not just a defensive anchor. He also has a good offensive game, good enough to carry a bad team through the season / be a 2nd-3rd option for a championship team. Hell half of the guys that I listed are either good all around players (gasol / howard / hibbert / bogut) or straight up HOF legends (duncan, KG, lebron). The cheapest of all of them is sanders and I think he is clearly a step below the others; then Asik at 8M per. all the rest are 12-14M+ per year. I just dont get this theory of GOOD defensive bigs being cheap and easy. I think nowadays its much easier to find wings that can score pretty damn well, though obviously not with dirk's 7ft advantage.

Cheap as in compared to players who can carry a team offensively. Who can do that? Lebron, Kobe, Melo, Rose (when healthy). Can't think of anyone who is a Dirk equivalent.

Also, you are comparing KG to defensive bigs. I am not doing that. I am comparing KG's defense to Dirk's offense. The argument is that, comparatively, KG's defense could be replicated easier than Dirk's offense. Your list just illustrated that.

[nowhereman523]

historically yes I'd agree. But definitely not for the last 10 years. Part of that is the rules have changed. Another part is that defenders will never have the fame, glory, contracts and groupies of scorers. But for a good solid 10 years the trend has been consistently in that direction- bigs are harder to find and therefore way more expensive regardless of talent, and most are better at scoring than defending, at the same time that perimeter scorers are becoming disposable. so at least in terms of availability / price, I dont see the argument but obviously a lot of those perimeter scorers are inefficient as hell and not at all comparable to someone like dirk or pierce.

That's missing the point. Teams can still be championship-caliber without a transcendent defensive player, as it's much more guided by schemes. They almost never do without a transcendent offensive player.


in an earlier post you referenced the 2003 head to head match up, these were the rosters from the head to head series:
mavs (4th seed 57-25 record, 58M roster)
nowitzki (all nba 2nd team, all star)
finley
nash (3rd team all nba, all star)
van exel
lafrentz
najera
adrian griffin
greg buckner
wang zhi zhi

vs
wolves (5th seed, 50-32, 55M roster)
garnett (1st team defense, 2nd team all nba, all star)
billups
szcerbiak (all star)
rasho
peeler
gary trent
joe smith
sam mitchell
felipe lopez

you cant possibly argue that the wolves had a better team and the difference maker was nowitzki v garnett; nowitzki just used his HC advantage and superior roster to win a series he was supposed to win (the same way that KG did in 08). and you cant argue otherwise when stephen jackson and jason richardson neutralized dirk's super offense in 07, despite the warriors being an 8th seed with no all stars and the mavs being 1st, having the mvp, the COY, 2 all stars. you just cant cherry pick like that.

Again missing the point, that in the head to head, KG's single greatest asset was of no consequence. I have no idea why KG, when he was on Nowitzki, couldn't slow the guy down individually, or why KG, when he wasn't on Nowitzki, was kept off Dirk while he was going off.

edit: just rewatched this to refresh my memory. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHdTYU-lGpw. It's amazing how many times KG was either way out of position on Dirk, or was being used to guard Lafrentz or Najera. KG's world beater defense was somewhere between ineffective and nonfactor.

[Larry33Legend]

Dirk doesn't have as many rings as Tim but they definitely belong in the same tier imho. and just like my nigga Jacob said, Dirk refused to move elsewhere even during our darkest years. Dirk's always been a mav in-heart and he's been sticking with his team through thick and thin. KG had another two superstars playing alongside him the year he rang and he wasn't even the best player on that team, while the 2nd best player on 11' mavs squad was JET? TC, or Jason Kidd? Them all were just role players imho. It's fair to say Dirk is the only superstar in modern basketball who has won the NBA championship with no other superstar in the supporting cast (04' pistons had no real superstar at all)
Say what? KG was like 3rd in MVP voting that year.

[Larry33Legend]

KG had the same impact Big Daddy Tyson had on the defensive end and chipped in 20 ppg on the other end. A whopping one point less than what Pierce averaged--yall act like Pierce was averaging 30 and KG 15 or something. :lol

The Finals MVP is not all that different than Parker getting it over Duncan in 07 tbh.
Actually, KG averaged more PPG than Pierce in the Playoffs that year. I don't know what crack pipe people who think Pierce was the best player are smoking, and Pierce is one of my all-time favorites.

[Larry33Legend]

- In his prime, KG didn't even make an all-NBA team one year. How can you lay claim to a top-4 all time PF spot if, when healthy and in your absolute prime, you weren't even considered a top-6 forward in the league. What other "all-time" great wasn't even all-nba third team when healthy in their prime?


Factually incorrect. Four all 1st teams, three 2nd teams, two 3rd teams.

[FkLA]

But you'd have to admit that that's a lot of shots from outside for an inside player. The point is, you originally said Duncan didn't close games, he did. I think this thread has gone off topic.

Originally assumed 'closing' was referring to last second situations. Your definition is different than that (I dont necessarily disagree with it). My response was that if you considered that closing than KG has done his share of it as well.


No doubt. I am not saying KG is a Dirk sidekick, but he is not, or at least no demonstrated that he is, a #1 scoring option, that's all I am saying. I am not comparing KG to Chandler, I am comparing him to Dirk.

I think hes demonstrated that he can be 1a/1b. He cant be the clear cut #1 option like Dirk was but 1a/1b aint too shabby.

Youre not comparing him to Chandler but you are saying a defensive anchor is easier to find than an offensive anchor (Dirk). That maybe true, but is an offensive anchor easier to find than a defensive anchor that can also be 1b and give you 20+ on the other end ?


His teams weren't necessarily worse than the 02/03/04 Duncan teams, or the late 00's Mavs teams. People like to say KG's support cast was horrible, but he had Brandon, Marbury, Wally Sczerbiak, Gugliotta, Joe Smith, Nesterovich, Billups, Joe Smith, and Hudson. Those aren't great players by any stretch of imagination, but those are not that much better than Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Barrea, and Bass.

KGs casts were horrible.

But lets go along with it and say they werent any worse than what Dirk had in the late 00s. How did Dirk close out the decade? Two first round exits and a series win over the Spurs (without Ginobili)--is that any better than what KG did? How does that prove Dirk is easier to build around and that if he had similar casts throughout his career he wouldve enjoyed more success than KG did ?


If by success you mean a championship, then I doubt it. Even with a healthy Cassell, I can't see the Wolves getting past the Pistons. If by success you mean deep playoff runs, then he did it in 04. The 05 Wolves had the same team, but with Cassell and Sprewell getting older, didn't go anywhere.

Unlikely they beat the Pistons in '04, I agree. The East was weak for most other years though, if KG enjoyed similar casts throughout his time in Minny and managed to get out of the West its probable he ends up with a win. That notion seems laughable since the Wolves were never really close other than that one year but again his casts were terrible. Give him solid help and who knows.

BTW that 05 team on top of being older, also had Cassell coming off the injury and Spree holding out for a new contract. Not exactly the same environment Dirk and Duncan enjoyed.


He handled the ball more, but even with that metric, nobody on the Mavs compared to Dirk from an offensive standpoint, and nobody on the Spurs compared to Duncan in offensive output. Not to mention the entire Spurs offense was designed around Duncan until around 2005, and the entire Mavs offense designed around Dirk since a long time ago. I can't think of any successful offense that was built around Garnett.

Both Dirk and Duncan are clear cut #1 options. Im not trying to argue that KG is one as well, simply that he wasnt necessarily a #2 in '08 but rather a 1a/1b.

Couple that with what he does on the other end and that leads back to the original thread topic, and why I take him over Dirk.

[Chief Brody]

Didn't Ced Ceballos have as many Alpha playoff series wins as KG?:lol

[BatManu20]

KG no doubt. Dirk's better offensively obviously but KG in his prime was a monster who controlled both ends of the court. And I hate the guy, but it's the truth. He was just stuck on a God awful team. His rebounding and defensive dominance put him over Dirk imo. People forget how bad Dirk was on that side of the ball for most of his career. It was until about 3 or 4 years ago that he became a decent defender. I remember Duncan would torch him in the post every time they they played the Mavs. But Dirk would put up 25-30 too with hi perimeter shooting. It's close, but KG > Dirk.

[Chief Brody]

And unsurprisingly enough he got out of the first round and made the WCF. Cassell was injured during that run too, he was playing PG at times in those WCF. Oh and how about Trenton Hassell? I remember when people used to call him Minny's Bowen. :lol
He got out of the first round as the first seed that year. Nice accomplishment, tbh:tu

If KG did less screaming and chest pounding he wouldn't be as remembered or beloved.

[FkLA]

^Better than what Dirk did with the 1st seed Mavs his MVP year imo.

[Findog]

You could make an argument for either guy. KG was good on offense and great on defense. Dirk was great on offense and for large swaths of his career terrible on D, although at his peak he was decent within Dallas' schemes. So that's the "KG was more of a two-way player and had crappier supporting casts in Minnesota than Dirk did in Dallas" line. Also, he commands a lot of respect and submission from his teammates. They buy into what he's selling and generally play hard and smart for him. He's demanding on his teammates and very much a leader type. Dirk is not a guy who leads like that. Not saying Dirk isn't a leader in his own way, but he's more of a Type B kind of guy compared to Garnett, and I want my best player to be more of an alpha/Type A sort of personality, like KG and Kobe.

Then you look at KG's title, he wasn't necessarily their best player, and his two best teammates were Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Dirk won a title where his best teammates were Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler, and he went through Kobe, Durant and Lebron to do it. Everybody talks about "stretch 4s" now but all of those guys are just shooters. Dirk is so much more than that. His impact on the offensive side of the game and the way defenses have to adjust and plan for him make his offense every bit as impactful as KG's defense, and with the rules changes, maybe even more important. Dirk led a team to a title, whereas KG was more of a group effort.

[baseline bum]

Dirk easily. Just watch Dirk's 2011 playoff run and there's no fucking way KG could've topped that.

Pretty much this

[Chief Brody]

^Better than what Dirk did with the 1st seed Mavs his MVP year imo.
No argument here:lol

[Findog]

Dirk easily. Just watch Dirk's 2011 playoff run and there's no fucking way KG could've topped that.

It's hard to imagine KG winning a title with Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler as his best supporting players, but then again, a Garnett/Chandler frontcourt would probably only give up 80 points a game. They wouldn't need to be the fuckin' 7 seconds or less Suns to win games.

[FkLA]

1.
Kobe Bryant, LAL
82
1100


2.
Chris Paul, NO
28
894


3.
Kevin Garnett, BOS
15
670


4.
LeBron James, CLE
1
438


5.
Dwight Howard, ORL
--
60


6.
Amare Stoudemire, PHX
--
27


7.
Tim Duncan, SA
--
25


8.
Tracy McGrady, HOU
--
19


9.
Steve Nash, PHX
--
18


10.
Manu Ginobili, SA
--
9


11.
Dirk Nowitzki, DAL
--
5


12.
Deron Williams, UTA
--
4


13.
Carmelo Anthony, DEN
--
3


14.
Paul Pierce, BOS
--
1


15.
Rasheed Wallace, DET
--
1


16.
Carlos Boozer, UTA
--
1


17.
Antawn Jamison, WAS
--
1




This KG wasnt the Celtics best player argument is pure nonsense and needs to stop tbh.

Carlos Boozer, Rasheed Wallace and Antawn Jamison had the same amount of MVP votes as Pierce did in '08. No doubt, the gap between KG and Pierce was alot smaller than the gap between Dirk and JET/Chandler...but still KG was unquestionably the best player on the Cs. Not even sure how its even debatable or 'not clear'.

[Chief Brody]

Another thing that hurts KG in this argument is that there's no real iconic playoff moment or game that you can attribute to him. He was good in the 2008 finals, but I remember Leon Powe's Game 2 and P.J. Brown's overall contributions more than I do KG's:lol. In 2010 I remember Big Baby and Little Nate standing out more than him. Most iconic KG playoff moment I can think of is Peeler's elbow tbh

[FkLA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQE2EAo__iI

:worthy:

[Chief Brody]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQE2EAo__iI

:worthy:

There's no way you remembered that, stop lying, b:lol

[FkLA]

There's no way you remembered that, stop lying, b:lol

That may be the problem, you niggas have probably forgot just how dominant KG was in his Minny days tbh.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZdXQIezguo

[Chief Brody]

^
They were down 3-1 and the series was essentially over when he did that. Color me unimpressed.

[Rogue]

You could make an argument for either guy. KG was good on offense and great on defense. Dirk was great on offense and for large swaths of his career terrible on D, although at his peak he was decent within Dallas' schemes. So that's the "KG was more of a two-way player and had crappier supporting casts in Minnesota than Dirk did in Dallas" line. Also, he commands a lot of respect and submission from his teammates. They buy into what he's selling and generally play hard and smart for him. He's demanding on his teammates and very much a leader type. Dirk is not a guy who leads like that. Not saying Dirk isn't a leader in his own way, but he's more of a Type B kind of guy compared to Garnett, and I want my best player to be more of an alpha/Type A sort of personality, like KG and Kobe.

Then you look at KG's title, he wasn't necessarily their best player, and his two best teammates were Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Dirk won a title where his best teammates were Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler, and he went through Kobe, Durant and Lebron to do it. Everybody talks about "stretch 4s" now but all of those guys are just shooters. Dirk is so much more than that. His impact on the offensive side of the game and the way defenses have to adjust and plan for him make his offense every bit as impactful as KG's defense, and with the rules changes, maybe even more important. Dirk led a team to a title, whereas KG was more of a group effort.
Although Dirk didn't make a name of him for his D, it wasn't like his D was "terrible" or anywhere close to that word imho. The prime KG was the better all-round player and there's no more argument about that, but I do think that Dirk is much closer to the definition of a leader than KG has ever been. Dirk a Type B kind of guy compared to Garnett? yet how come one remained on his team throughout his career while the other had to move elsewhere and form a superfriends team to win a ring? KG just bitched about his teammates and refs and he's always been dumb like a rock, while Dirk has always been a best friend type of guy to all his teammates and even as a foreigner, he speaks fluent English just like Von Manteufel. I think there's a reason why conference finals is the furtherest KG has ever been as the #1 of his team, imho.

and I'm really enchanted by your return btw, time to re-rally the Mavs Krew and start to regulate things again imho.

[FkLA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhL5-V1iE7c

As basketball fans we are truly blessed to have grown up watching both Duncan and KG. Two truly great two-way players tbh.

[Chief Brody]

^
Must've been in a loss. Didn't lead well enough.

[Chief Brody]

I do remember crotchety old Karl Malone outscoring KG in Game 1 of that series to steal the HCA, howeva:lol

[FkLA]

Little Mexican chaser gave Duncan tons of fits in the semis tbh. Not too shocking he slowed down KG in one game out of six.

[Chief Brody]

Little Mexican chaser gave Duncan tons of fits in the semis tbh. Not too shocking he slowed down KG in one game out of six.

The point remains, brah:

MJ: 63 in the garden, flu game, bryon russell, changing hands mid-air against Lakers, and etc etc
Kareem: a bunch from Mil-ay-wak-ay and Lakeshow involving the Skyhook
Magic: baby hook
Bird: steal, multiple big shots
Kobe: dominant overtime performance in Game 4 at Conseco (w/ a fouled out Shaq) that effectively sealed the series, GW shots against Phoenix in 2000 and 2006, going HAM on Sacto and San Antonio in 2001 and 2002. 40 pts against the Magic in Game 1 of the Finals.
Duncan: Near Quad-double in Game 6 2003 Finals
Dirk: Big 3 and winning layup in Game 2 of the NBA finals in 2011, Game 1 against OKC same year, Game 5 against Phoenix 2006, G5 GSW 2007, Clutch go ahead shot in G5 of the NBA Finals in 2006 before the shady foul on Wade.
Wade: entire 2006 Finals
LeBron: G5 against Pistons, last 2 Finals
KG: Hold on, lemme youtube...

[FkLA]

Yeah, I dont really think you actually believe that automatically makes Dirk better tbh.

[Larry33Legend]

The point remains, brah:

MJ: 63 in the garden, flu game, bryon russell, changing hands mid-air against Lakers, and etc etc
Kareem: a bunch from Mil-ay-wak-ay and Lakeshow involving the Skyhook
Magic: baby hook
Bird: steal, multiple big shots
Kobe: dominant overtime performance in Game 4 at Conseco (w/ a fouled out Shaq) that effectively sealed the series, GW shots against Phoenix in 2000 and 2006, going HAM on Sacto and San Antonio in 2001 and 2002. 40 pts against the Magic in Game 1 of the Finals.
Duncan: Near Quad-double in Game 6 2003 Finals
Dirk: Big 3 and winning layup in Game 2 of the NBA finals in 2011, Game 1 against OKC same year, Game 5 against Phoenix 2006, G5 GSW 2007, Clutch go ahead shot in G5 of the NBA Finals in 2006 before the shady foul on Wade.
Wade: entire 2006 Finals
LeBron: G5 against Pistons, last 2 Finals
KG: Hold on, lemme youtube...
Actually, Garnett's 32/20 game 7 performance against the Kings is highly memorable to anyone who's watched basketball during that time (which there seems to be not many in this thread), it was nominated for all-decade performance by TNT a few years ago. Not to mention his performance in Game 6 to closeout the Lakers where he pretty much slammed the door on their title hopes in the first half (had like 18 first half points including some incredible plays), he finished with 26/14.

[Larry33Legend]

For the record, I have Dirk slightly ahead of Garnett due to longevity and more overall team success. I just can't get behind the idea that Garnett "wasn't the best player on the '08 Celtics" when all of the numbers suggest he was by a fairly decent margin, and by an even larger margin in the Playoffs (leading scorer, rebounder, upped his numbers across the board)

[ambchang]

Originally assumed 'closing' was referring to last second situations. Your definition is different than that (I dont necessarily disagree with it). My response was that if you considered that closing than KG has done his share of it as well.



I think hes demonstrated that he can be 1a/1b. He cant be the clear cut #1 option like Dirk was but 1a/1b aint too shabby.

Agreed.


Youre not comparing him to Chandler but you are saying a defensive anchor is easier to find than an offensive anchor (Dirk). That maybe true, but is an offensive anchor easier to find than a defensive anchor that can also be 1b and give you 20+ on the other end ?

KG is a once in a generation player just like Dirk, and I am not arguing that, the thing is the "sidekick" that Dirk requires (defensive anchor big) is much easier to find, relatively, than the "sickkick" that KG requires. To sum it up, it is much easier to find someone like Chandler than Pierce. I am not saying that either are easy to find, one is just easier to find relative to another. In the last decade, we have a couple of players who can fill Pierce's role, and all of them are superstar level players. We have seen more than a few Chandler type players, and they do not cost as much. Which brings us to my original premise, KG is a better player than Dirk, but Dirk is the better #1 if I want to build a championship team.


KGs casts were horrible.

I wouldn't call them horrible, they are not great for sure, definitely not championship quality, but not horrible. David Robinson, for example, had way worse supporting casts than KG had, and hauled them to 50+ win seasons and 2nd rounds.

Also, part of the reason his cast was "horrible" was due to his albatross contract. He doesn't necessarily have to turn down guaranteed money if someone is shoving it in his face, but hey, he was the reason for it.


But lets go along with it and say they werent any worse than what Dirk had in the late 00s. How did Dirk close out the decade? Two first round exits and a series win over the Spurs (without Ginobili)--is that any better than what KG did? How does that prove Dirk is easier to build around and that if he had similar casts throughout his career he wouldve enjoyed more success than KG did ?

Dirk go to the 2nd round once and won a championship. That's one more 2nd round and one more championship than KG had in the beginning of the decade.


Unlikely they beat the Pistons in '04, I agree. The East was weak for most other years though, if KG enjoyed similar casts throughout his time in Minny and managed to get out of the West its probable he ends up with a win. That notion seems laughable since the Wolves were never really close other than that one year but again his casts were terrible. Give him solid help and who knows.

Depends what you mean by solid help. If KG can have a player like Vince Carter/T-Mac/Kobe beside him, then get a good PG to supplement, then sure, he could have, but then KG will no longer be the alpha on that team, and again, a 1b at best.


BTW that 05 team on top of being older, also had Cassell coming off the injury and Spree holding out for a new contract. Not exactly the same environment Dirk and Duncan enjoyed.

No arguments, but Dirk and Duncan were responsible for their environments as well. They are all leaders of the team. Not sure if Cassell or Sprewell ever looked up to KG as the leader, or a very very talented player who is the best on the team, but there is no doubt everybody on the Mavs and Spurs looked up to Dirk and Duncan as leaders.


Both Dirk and Duncan are clear cut #1 options. Im not trying to argue that KG is one as well, simply that he wasnt necessarily a #2 in '08 but rather a 1a/1b.

Couple that with what he does on the other end and that leads back to the original thread topic, and why I take him over Dirk.

Which at the end goes to my earlier point, I can understand either positions in the argument, but saying KG is definitely over Dirk and everybody else who says otherwise is an idiot is something I can't agree with.

[ambchang]

This KG wasnt the Celtics best player argument is pure nonsense and needs to stop tbh.

Carlos Boozer, Rasheed Wallace and Antawn Jamison had the same amount of MVP votes as Pierce did in '08. No doubt, the gap between KG and Pierce was alot smaller than the gap between Dirk and JET/Chandler...but still KG was unquestionably the best player on the Cs. Not even sure how its even debatable or 'not clear'.

I am not getting you. Are you saying Kobe, Paul and Garnett > Lebron in 2008? Are you saying Stoudemire was the leader of the SUns in 08 and not Nash?

[ambchang]

For the record, there are two very memorable Garnett playoff games. The Kings game, and the Lakers game. I think I mentioned at least one of them earlier in the thread. But guess what? One of them was part of a series loss, and the other one happened in the 2nd round (or was that a 1st round).

Otoh, Dirk had an entire insane playoff run that led to a championship. 48 points on 15 shots vs. OKC, 40 points on 20 shots in the SAME SERIES. 34/11/3/3 in the finals. 28/14 vs. LAL on the way to a sweep.

Even in his much criticized 06 season, he had a 50/12 vs. the Suns in the WCF and came up huge in Game 7 of the Spurs series 37/15.

That's 6 highly memorable games off the top of my head (I had to look up the numbers, but I remembered the games), 3 of which happened in a playoff run in 2011.

It's sort of the thing that got Hakeem his notoriety, sure had had a lousy streak in his career, but people remember him for those insane runs in 94 and 95.

[Chief Brody]

Actually, Garnett's 32/20 game 7 performance against the Kings is highly memorable to anyone who's watched basketball during that time (which there seems to be not many in this thread), it was nominated for all-decade performance by TNT a few years ago. Not to mention his performance in Game 6 to closeout the Lakers where he pretty much slammed the door on their title hopes in the first half (had like 18 first half points including some incredible plays), he finished with 26/14.
lol attributing the Game 6 massacre to any one player...you're adorable, buddy. And I'm glad we were all able to google and find KG's one shining moment in the 2004 WCSF--which he quickly followed up with getting outplayed by a 57 y/o PF.

His likeness will never be seen again

[nowhereman523]

Factually incorrect. Four all 1st teams, three 2nd teams, two 3rd teams.

He missed the 2005-06 all-NBA team. 9 bigs chosen ahead of him - Dirk, Shaq, LeBron, Timmy, Brand, Ben Wallace, Yao, Melo, and Marion. He played a full season that year too.

edit - link: http://espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2448612

There's no satisfying way to explain that away. I know it's affected by team success, but (1) you can't name another supposedly all-time great that missed even the third-team in his prime while healthy (Kobe was, e.g., a third teamer when his team won 33 games despite only playing 66 games), and (2) he can't be totally off the hook for how brutal that team did.

[Larry33Legend]

lol attributing the Game 6 massacre to any one player...you're adorable, buddy. And I'm glad we were all able to google and find KG's one shining moment in the 2004 WCSF--which he quickly followed up with getting outplayed by a 57 y/o PF.

His likeness will never be seen again

Where did I attribute the entire game to Garnett? You asked for memorable Playoff performances and that was obviously one of them for Garnett. I'm sorry that KG's 32/20 performance (that apparantly I had to "dig through the archives for" despite the fact that it was like one of 6-7 performances nominated for best of the decade by TNT) wasn't good enough for you, but to most people it is a very memorable game.

KG outplayed by Malone in the WCF? Are you really just making things up now to discredit Garnett?

Garnett: 23.7/13.5/4.5/1.2/1.2 on 46% FG in 43 MPG
Malone: 12.0/9.3/4.7/1.2/0 on 44% FG in 39 MPG

Yup, definitely outplayed.

[Chief Brody]

Where did I attribute the entire game to Garnett? You asked for memorable Playoff performances and that was obviously one of them for Garnett. I'm sorry that KG's 32/20 performance (that apparantly I had to "dig through the archives for" despite the fact that it was like one of 6-7 performances nominated for best of the decade by TNT) wasn't good enough for you but to most people it is a very memorable game.

KG outplayed by Malone in the WCF? Are you really just making things up now to discredit Garnett?
Yes, in Game 1 (which quickly followed G7 and what I already referenced in the convo with FkLA) he was outplayed by Malone. He followed up his greatest playoff performance by getting outplayed by the Mailman and having HCA ripped from him. Btw, the hometeam won the remaining 5 games of that series, so methinks G1 loomed rather large, no?

Also, I'll play along and assume you remembered the G7--that's one, to Dirk's handful+ amount of great playoff performances. Better leader, better player, better winner=Dirk

[Larry33Legend]

He missed the 2005-06 all-NBA team. 9 bigs chosen ahead of him - Dirk, Shaq, LeBron, Timmy, Brand, Ben Wallace, Yao, Melo, and Marion. He played a full season that year too.

edit - link: http://espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2448612

There's no satisfying way to explain that away. I know it's affected by team success, but (1) you can't name another supposedly all-time great that missed even the third-team in his prime while healthy (Kobe was, e.g., a third teamer when his team won 33 games despite only playing 66 games), and (2) he can't be totally off the hook for how brutal that team did.

Off the top of my head, Carmelo & Wade missed the all-nba teams in 07-08 (although Wade wasn't particularly healthy). At the end of the day those selections are subjective and based on media/hype. Garnett and the Wolves weren't relevant in 06 (or 05-07), Garnett still performed as he always did individually.

[Larry33Legend]

Yes, in Game 1 (which quickly followed G7 and what I already referenced in the convo with FkLA) he was outplayed by Malone. He followed up his greatest playoff performance by getting outplayed by the Mailman and having HCA ripped from him. Btw, the hometeam won the remaining 5 games of that series, so methinks G1 loomed rather large, no?

Also, I'll play along and assume you remembered the G7--that's one, to Dirk's handful+ amount of great playoff performances. Better leader, better player, better winner=Dirk
Malone narrowly outplayed KG in one game of that series, and was dominated for every other game (understandably so, it was Malone on his last legs against prime KG).

I already mentioned more than one, but you've simply decided they aren't good enough for you. You obviously have something against Garnett so you'll find away to shoot down any good performance I mention regardless.

[Chief Brody]

There was no Game 7. And you can't possibly be talking about Game 6 either, Garnett had 22/17/2 while Malone had 10/10/7 (and shot worse from the field). Malone narrowly outplayed KG in one game of that series, and was dominated for every other game (understandably so, it was Malone on his last legs against prime KG).

I already mentioned more than one, but you've simply decided they aren't good enough for you. You obviously have something against Garnett so you'll find away to shoot down any good performance I mention regardless.
Omg you slow motherfucker, let me spell it out for you:

He had his best playoff game ever in G7 of the WCSF, and followed that up by getting outplayed by the Mailman in G1 of the WCF. He was in the prime of his career and the league MVP going up against an old bastard on his last legs. G1 ultimately decided the series, and in that game KG lost his matchup and let the team down. It was only the most important game of his career up to that point, no biggie.

The other performances you mentioned are good, but require google.

[Larry33Legend]

Omg you slow motherfucker, let me spell it out for you:

He had his best playoff game ever in G7 of the WCSF, and followed that up by getting outplayed by the Mailman in G1 of the WCF. He was in the prime of his career and the league MVP going up against an old bastard on his last legs. G1 ultimately decided the series, and in that game KG lost his matchup and let the team down. It was only the most important game of his career up to that point, no biggie.

The other performances you mentioned are good, but require google.

I know, relax kiddo. I misunderstood your post, edited.

I don't know what point you're trying to prove by saying the one game he got outplayed by Malone (before he dominated him for 5 straight games) was after his best performance. In what way does that discredit his performance? It doesn't, it's completely irrelevant...like most of what you say. The series was decided by Cassell & Hudson (their starting AND backup PG) being hurt/out.

KG's Game 1 performance was not even that bad, other stars have had worse. Lebron's game 5 against the Celtics in 2010 and Dirks Game 6 against the Warriors were both much worse performances (and significantly more important games, one being a close-out and one being a pivotal game).

[Chief Brody]

I know, relax kiddo. I misunderstood your post, edited.

I don't know what point you're trying to prove by saying the one game he got outplayed by Malone (before he dominated him for 5 straight games) was after his best performance. In what way does that discredit his performance? It doesn't, it's completely irrelevant...like most of what you say. The series was decided by Cassell & Hudson (their starting AND backup PG) being hurt/out.

KG's Game 1 performance was not even that bad, other stars have had worse. Lebron's game 5 against the Celtics in 2010 and Dirks Game 6 against the Warriors were both much worse performances (and significantly more important games, one being a close-out and one being a pivotal game).
but LeBron and Dirk have also gone on to win as unquestionable aplhas and their playoff performances dwarf KG's. Get it yet?

and lol at downplaying a subpar performance in G1 of the WCF. Did that game not loom large over the rest of the series? Do you deny that the home team won the remaining 5 games of that WCF?

[Larry33Legend]

but LeBron and Dirk have also gone on to win as unquestionable aplhas and their playoff performances dwarf KG's. Get it yet?

and lol at downplaying a subpar performance in G1 of the WCF. Did that game not loom large of the rest of the series? Do you deny that the home team won the remaining 5 games of that WCF?

That's besides the point, I'm not arguing whether or not KG is better than Lebron or Dirk. You tried to use his Game 1 performance to discredit his Game 7 performance against the Kings (which still makes no sense to me), when you can pick out games for plenty of stars/all-time greats that were subpar/not up to their standards.

Edit: I don't know what an "aplhas" is, but if you're talking best player on the team. KG won as the unquestioned best player of the Celtics in 2008.

Again, you can point out bad games from plenty of great players, I just brought up two that were worse and directly led to their respective teams losing the series. I still don't see how it takes away from his Game 7 performance against Kings.

[Chief Brody]

That's besides the point, I'm not arguing whether or not KG is better than Lebron or Dirk. You tried to use his Game 1 performance to discredit his Game 7 performance against the Kings (which still makes no sense to me), when you can pick out games for plenty of stars/all-time greats that were subpar/not up to their standards.

Edit: I don't know what an "aplhas" is, but if you're talking best player on the team. KG won as the unquestioned best player of the Celtics in 2008.

Again, you can point out bad games from plenty of great players, I just brought up two that were worse and directly led to their respective teams losing the series. I still don't see how it takes away from his Game 7 performance against Kings.
Pure bullshit, he was a sometimes 1a, but mostly a 1b in big games for that C's team. There was never any doubt who the big dick on campus was on the last 3 title teams.

Sure he'll always have that WCSF win, nobody can take that way from him. If that's the high point in his body of work more power to him

[Larry33Legend]

Pure bullshit, he was a sometimes 1a, but mostly a 1b in big games for that C's team. There was never any doubt who the big dick on campus was on the last 3 title teams.

Sure he'll always have that WCSF win, nobody can take that way from him. If that's the high point in his body of work more power to him

Offensively? Yeah sure, although Garnett led them in scoring in the Playoffs. But there are two ends to the basketball court, and if you're 1a/1b offensively and 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> defensively/rebounding then I don't see how you aren't the best player.

[nowhereman523]

Off the top of my head, Carmelo & Wade missed the all-nba teams in 07-08 (although Wade wasn't particularly healthy). At the end of the day those selections are subjective and based on media/hype. Garnett and the Wolves weren't relevant in 06 (or 05-07), Garnett still performed as he always did individually.

I didn't hold Wade or Melo in nearly the esteem I hold KG, so those comparables are actually very telling in a negative way. Either way, just another data point among many why I have the guy behind Timmy/Dirk/Barkley/Malone.

[FkLA]

KG is a once in a generation player just like Dirk, and I am not arguing that, the thing is the "sidekick" that Dirk requires (defensive anchor big) is much easier to find, relatively, than the "sickkick" that KG requires. To sum it up, it is much easier to find someone like Chandler than Pierce. I am not saying that either are easy to find, one is just easier to find relative to another. In the last decade, we have a couple of players who can fill Pierce's role, and all of them are superstar level players. We have seen more than a few Chandler type players, and they do not cost as much. Which brings us to my original premise, KG is a better player than Dirk, but Dirk is the better #1 if I want to build a championship team.

I honestly completely forgot you picked KG as the better player tbh. :lol

But regarding your point, KG happened to win with two in Pierce and Allen but I honestly dont think that a 'superteam' was the only way he couldve won. Cassell and Spree arent HOFs and they were legit title contenders that year. I also think its arguable whether a DPOY candidate is easier to find than an all-star that can score and take some pressure of KG in clutch situations.


I wouldn't call them horrible, they are not great for sure, definitely not championship quality, but not horrible. David Robinson, for example, had way worse supporting casts than KG had, and hauled them to 50+ win seasons and 2nd rounds.

Also, part of the reason his cast was "horrible" was due to his albatross contract. He doesn't necessarily have to turn down guaranteed money if someone is shoving it in his face, but hey, he was the reason for it.

They were terrible, man. You can name some solid players here or there over the years but overall they sucked. Guys like Trenton Hassell were his Bruce Bowen, Hudson/Wally were his #2 for a couple years, he didnt have an owner with big pockets like Dirk, their management wasnt able to overcome that like the Spurs were able to, etc. Relative to what Duncan/Dirk enjoyed for the majority of their time what KG had was crap.

His contract played a role in it no doubt. But with an owner like Cubes that might not have even mattered.


Dirk go to the 2nd round once and won a championship. That's one more 2nd round and one more championship than KG had in the beginning of the decade.

Nah, I dont think you can really count 2011 as a year were Dirk had dogshit around him. I mean he had what he needed (defensive anchor) in Chandler as well as shooters all around him, so why would you count it? After the 2007 choke I do think the Mavs kinda spiraled downwards...2008-2010 they were nothing special. In those years they had two first round exits and a win over the Ginobili-less Spurs. Not much different than what KG did all those years with shitty casts.


Depends what you mean by solid help. If KG can have a player like Vince Carter/T-Mac/Kobe beside him, then get a good PG to supplement, then sure, he could have, but then KG will no longer be the alpha on that team, and again, a 1b at best.

This is where we disagree. Spree and Cassell were all-star caliber players but they werent the cream of the crop for their respective positions. Theres a big gap between the casts he had and having elite talent around him--his 2004 squad falls somewhere in the between. Give him something similar throughout his career and his teams have plenty of success.


No arguments, but Dirk and Duncan were responsible for their environments as well. They are all leaders of the team. Not sure if Cassell or Sprewell ever looked up to KG as the leader, or a very very talented player who is the best on the team, but there is no doubt everybody on the Mavs and Spurs looked up to Dirk and Duncan as leaders.

I remember them being pretty close and KG openly supporting Spree getting paid. Dont think there was any tension between them, more with management and ownerships unwillingness to open up their pockets. Something that likely wouldnt have been a problem with Cubes.


Which at the end goes to my earlier point, I can understand either positions in the argument, but saying KG is definitely over Dirk and everybody else who says otherwise is an idiot is something I can't agree with.

1a/1b+best defensive PF of all-time>a dominant #1, its really that simple for me tbh. Its not laughable to compare the two since Dirk is one of the best of all-time as well (which is a testament to how dominant his offense is since he isnt a dominant two-way player), but its still pretty clear who the better player is imho. What I do find laughable is the reasoning some of these mavfans use to support their stance--nowhereman is a great example.

[FkLA]

I am not getting you. Are you saying Kobe, Paul and Garnett > Lebron in 2008? Are you saying Stoudemire was the leader of the SUns in 08 and not Nash?

MVP isnt always handed to the best player, no argument about that.

But its pretty uncommon for the 'best' player on a team to receive 669 less points than the second best player...that was the difference in votes received between KG and Pierce. The difference between Nash and Amare was 9 points, the difference between Duncan and Manu 16 points. Pierce wasnt even considered a Top 5 swingman prior to KG btw.


I didn't hold Wade or Melo in nearly the esteem I hold KG, so those comparables are actually very telling in a negative way. Either way, just another data point among many why I have the guy behind Timmy/Dirk/Barkley/Malone.

You dont hold Wade in the same high esteem? Wade>Dirk you dipshit.

[Findog]

For the record, I have Dirk slightly ahead of Garnett due to longevity and more overall team success. I just can't get behind the idea that Garnett "wasn't the best player on the '08 Celtics" when all of the numbers suggest he was by a fairly decent margin, and by an even larger margin in the Playoffs (leading scorer, rebounder, upped his numbers across the board)

The fact that we even argue over who was the best player on the Celtics in 08 (Pierce or KG) goes to show how much more help Garnett had in his title run than Dirk did in his. Dirk put that team on his back and beat Kobe, Durant and LeBron/Wade in that order. Dirk's title is more impressive than KG, and while it's true that Dirk consistently had better supporting casts in Dallas than KG did in Minnesota, his supporting casts were never great.

Who was the second-best player on the 06 team that lost to Miami? Josh Howard. Who was the second-best player on the team that won the title in 11? Tyson Chandler? Jason Terry? He never had anything remotely like Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, or later on those two and a Rondo that had come into his own. Dirk had competent supporting casts, not overwhelming ones. How many All-Stars did he play with? There was Nash and Finley early in his career, and then in his prime Josh Howard and Jason Kidd each made one All-Star team as an injury replacement. How many All-NBA team members did Dirk play with? Not many.

Both won titles, both had long careers with high levels of consistent production. It's close, but it's Dirk.

[FkLA]

The fact that we even argue over who was the best player on the Celtics in 08 (Pierce or KG) goes to show how much more help Garnett had in his title run than Dirk did in his. Dirk put that team on his back and beat Kobe, Durant and LeBron/Wade in that order. Dirk's title is more impressive than KG, and while it's true that Dirk consistently had better supporting casts in Dallas than KG did in Minnesota, his supporting casts were never great.

Who was the second-best player on the 06 team that lost to Miami? Josh Howard. Who was the second-best player on the team that won the title in 11? Tyson Chandler? Jason Terry? He never had anything remotely like Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, or later on those two and a Rondo that had come into his own. Dirk had competent supporting casts, not overwhelming ones. How many All-Stars did he play with? There was Nash and Finley early in his career, and then in his prime Josh Howard and Jason Kidd each made one All-Star team as an injury replacement. How many All-NBA team members did Dirk play with? Not many.

Both won titles, both had long careers with high levels of consistent production. It's close, but it's Dirk.

The fact that its argued doesnt make it any less true. KG was unquestionably best player on that team, offense you can make some sort of argument but overall its not even close. The fact that KG happened to win with two HOFs and Dirk didnt shouldnt determine who the better player is. I dont see anybody denying Bron's greatness because he won with a 'superteam'.

[Findog]

The fact that its argued doesnt make it any less true. KG was unquestionably best player on that team, offense you can make some sort of argument but overall its not even close. The fact that KG happened to win with two HOFs and Dirk didnt shouldnt determine who the better player is. I dont see anybody denying Bron's greatness because he won with a 'superteam'.

Both LeBron and Dirk did more heavy lifting in their titles than KG did in his and it's not even close.

[FkLA]

Both LeBron and Dirk did more heavy lifting in their titles than KG did in his and it's not even close.

So? Dirk had less offensive help than Duncan did his last two titles or than Bron did for these two. That doesnt mean Id take '11 Dirk over 05/07 Duncan or 12/13 Bron.

KG happened to win with two HOFs. Theres a huge gap between that and what he had in Minny.

[Larry33Legend]

Both LeBron and Dirk did more heavy lifting in their titles than KG did in his and it's not even close.
That's a huge exaggeration. Garnett was his teams leading scorer/rebounder in the 2008 Playoffs all while anchoring the defense. People forget how mediocre Pierce and Allen (specifically Allen) were through the first two rounds. Through that stretch Garnett carried the Celtics similarly to how he carried the Timberwolves. It was only in the ECF when they started playing like themselves again (well, outside of Pierce's big Game 7), and Garnett still led them in scoring in that series.

[nowhereman523]

The fact that its argued doesnt make it any less true. KG was unquestionably best player on that team, offense you can make some sort of argument but overall its not even close. The fact that KG happened to win with two HOFs and Dirk didnt shouldnt determine who the better player is. I dont see anybody denying Bron's greatness because he won with a 'superteam'.

You're such a dumbass.

[Rogue]

That's a huge exaggeration. Garnett was his teams leading scorer/rebounder in the 2008 Playoffs all while anchoring the defense. People forget how mediocre Pierce and Allen (specifically Allen) were through the first two rounds. Through that stretch Garnett carried the Celtics similarly to how he carried the Timberwolves. It was only in the ECF when they started playing like themselves again (well, outside of Pierce's big Game 7), and Garnett still led them in scoring in that series.
I think my nigga Findog was simply emphasizing the comparison of quality between the supporting casts Dirk and KG each got during their title runs, rather than the performances of such players in one or two series imho. 11' mavs got a bunch of marginal role players who performed like superstars (JJB, Lincoln and even Peja), not to say the regular ones like Kidd, TC and Marion. But at that point of time, none of them was a legit superstar in the league. TC was offensively limited, Kidd old as fuck and Marion past his prime already. meanwhile, the 08' celtics had 3 superstars, all of who were always franchise players on their respective former teams the seasons prior. We got really lucky that year because our role players all at once happened to play like stars and contributed BIG to our championship run, but they were still role players imho.

[jsandiego]

1a/1b+best defensive PF of all-time>a dominant #1, its really that simple for me tbh.
KG isn't the best defensive PF, but he's a close 2nd.

Defensive Rating (http://Defensive Rating)

Defensive Win Shares (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/dws_active.html)

Blocks/Game (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_per_g_active.html)

Total Blocks (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/blk_active.html)

Defensive Rebound Pct (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/drb_pct_active.html)

The only category KG has over Duncan is Total Defensive Rebounds, but when you go on a per game basis, Duncan (8.31/game) tops KG (8.13/game) yet again, even though Duncan played with twin towers most of his career where you'd think he'd split more rebounds with the other big man.

And this is just regular season. Playoff Tim Duncan on the defensive end was another level.

[ambchang]

{Stuff we agreed upon removed} ...
This is where we disagree. Spree and Cassell were all-star caliber players but they werent the cream of the crop for their respective positions. Theres a big gap between the casts he had and having elite talent around him--his 2004 squad falls somewhere in the between. Give him something similar throughout his career and his teams have plenty of success.

Alilen was 2nd team all NBA that year, that was pretty much as close to the top as you can get. Sprewell, though he didn't get any honours that year, had arguably his best season since his GSW. He didn't make All-Star that year, but he was definitely worthy. Really, a backcourt any better than that 04 Wolves backcourt would be considered elite. Other than Parker/Ginobili and Billups/Hamilton, there really hasn't been too many backcourts that were better than that 04 Wolves backcourt in the last decade and a half. And as a big man, the most important thing for Garnett has been guards.


I remember them being pretty close and KG openly supporting Spree getting paid. Dont think there was any tension between them, more with management and ownerships unwillingness to open up their pockets. Something that likely wouldnt have been a problem with Cubes.

I wasn't really referring to tension, but more of whether KG was a leader.


1a/1b+best defensive PF of all-time>a dominant #1, its really that simple for me tbh. Its not laughable to compare the two since Dirk is one of the best of all-time as well (which is a testament to how dominant his offense is since he isnt a dominant two-way player), but its still pretty clear who the better player is imho. What I do find laughable is the reasoning some of these mavfans use to support their stance--nowhereman is a great example.

I do find KG to be the better player overall, but it's not by much of a margin. But Dirk was just easier to build around. I guess when it really comes down to it, the talent that is required to plug KG's weaknesses are tougher to find than Dirk's.


MVP isnt always handed to the best player, no argument about that.

But its pretty uncommon for the 'best' player on a team to receive 669 less points than the second best player...that was the difference in votes received between KG and Pierce. The difference between Nash and Amare was 9 points, the difference between Duncan and Manu 16 points. Pierce wasnt even considered a Top 5 swingman prior to KG btw.

You dont hold Wade in the same high esteem? Wade>Dirk you dipshit.

There was no question that Duncan was, and will always be, the most important player on the Spurs in order for it to be successful. Even in the 08 decline year, Duncan was no doubt the leader.

KG was most definitely the more valuable Celtic that year, as he anchored one of the best defenses in league history. That said, Pierce was still the offensive center.

[Ashy Larry]

In their primes, KG. Defensively, it's a no-brainer