Belinelli is just as bad as Neal defensively..........

[apalisoc_9]

But boy is he so much better offensively. That added vision is going to come in really handy.

[look_at_g_shred]

I like the fact that he moves without the ball well! Something Green should really work on.

[Monkeyboy14]

Give it time man.. Once he learns the spurs way and get into season mode I'm sure it will improve.. At least better than Neal.. This is just the preseason... Not the nba finals. you can't expect guys with guaranteed contracts to go all out.

[look_at_g_shred]

Give it time man.. Once he learns the spurs way and get into season mode I'm sure it will improve.. At least better than Neal.. This is just the preseason... Not the nba finals. you can't expect guys with guaranteed contracts to go all out.
True. You wonder if pop and the coaching staff have a say so in it as well!

[mookie2001]

Yeah I like that about Marco. He works hard to get open (doesn't just float around the perimeter and catch and shoot), he understands to receive a pass you've got to be ready to shoot or make a move. He reminds me of Nash actually the way he's relentless without the ball

[Darius Bieber]

I think Neal is a better three point shooter than Belinelli, to be honest.

[Libri]

They didn't call him Marco Jordan for nothing.

[Monkeyboy14]

True. You wonder if pop and the coaching staff have a say so in it as well!
Probably. For the spurs the preseason is just to start getting everyone in sync with each other and with what they are trying to do

[Monkeyboy14]

I think Neal is a better three point shooter than Belinelli, to be honest.
Yeah, based off the 4 preseason games Neal is a better shooter... Give it tiiiime man

[xmas1997]

Beli, and Ayers still have a lot to learn. We may not see drastic improvement until later in the season. Besides learning the Spurs system, they have to learn the tendencies of their new teammates and vice versa.

[racm]

No surprise, given that Pop's been experimenting with defensive schemes so much this preseason.

That said, Marco can put the ball on the floor, something Neal could never really do. :toast

[Skull-1]

I think Neal is a better three point shooter than Belinelli, to be honest.


Not always. Neal could really suck sometimes. Clang.

[Skull-1]

No surprise, given that Pop's been experimenting with defensive schemes so much this preseason.

That said, Marco can put the ball on the floor, something Neal could never really do. :toast


Glad for that. Neal always made me cringe bringing the ball up the floor.... Wasn't it the infamous First Round Series against Memphis where he was turning it over left and right on the dribble up even with Parker in?

[Hoops Czar]

But boy is he so much better offensively. That added vision is going to come in really handy.

Well, since defense wins championships....... Anyways, as a player like Marco, he'd better have a season to remember because he's going to get flat out clowned on the defensive end. I'm not basing this off a couple of meaningless preseason games.

[Hoops Czar]

Yeah, based off the 4 preseason games Neal is a better shooter... Give it tiiiime man
No, based off his career he's a better shooter.

[ElNono]

I like the fact he has size... at least compared to Neal... he isn't going to be blocking shots, but at least it isn't obvious to other players they can simply shot over him.

[lefty]

Clutch mofo

[Skull-1]

Well, since defense wins championships....... Anyways, as a player like Marco, he'd better have a season to remember because he's going to get flat out clowned on the defensive end. I'm not basing this off a couple of meaningless preseason games.


Defense wins champ's but if one has no defense then some improvement in offense over an equally bad D player is better than nothing...

[ace3g]

The only thing Neal was good for on defense was a charge here and there. Marco has size to get rebounds on defense, looks like he can stay with his man enough and not lose him on every screen.

[HarlemHeat37]

As I said at the time of his signing, he's just as bad as Neal from a defensive standpoint, tbh..I'll give him a slight edge due to size, but he's a liability..

Belineli is slightly more intelligent and a much better passer, while Neal's off the dribble game is superior..

They are both mediocre players that can be exploited, tbh..

[td4mvp2k]

As I said at the time of his signing, he's just as bad as Neal from a defensive standpoint, tbh..I'll give him a slight edge due to size, but he's a liability..Belineli is slightly more intelligent and a much better passer, while Neal's off the dribble game is superior..They are both mediocre players that can be exploited, tbh..u said wat I waz goin to... He does suk on d but they didnt sign him for his d tbh

[siraulo23]

maybe a microsecond faster in lateral quickness? ill take it

he's a better playmaker and passer

[ace3g]

Plus I like the cuts he makes on offense, not just floating around the perimeter.

[Skull-1]

Plus I like the cuts he makes on offense, not just floating around the perimeter.

[PlayNando]

Marco = Manu's heir...

Marco will be great in a few years. He should start over Green, tbh!

[KL2]

I have a hard time believing that, I think Marco can be an average defender in this system, wheras Neal had some of the worst defense I've ever seen. Not only was he a horrible defender but the dumb fouls he committed were out of control, the late charges, and 1's etc.

[Skull-1]

I have a hard time believing that, I think Marco can be an average defender in this system, wheras Neal had some of the worst defense I've ever seen. Not only was he a horrible defender but the dumb fouls he committed were out of control, the late charges, and 1's etc.
Good points.

[Hoops Czar]

Defense wins champ's but if one has no defense then some improvement in offense over an equally bad D player is better than nothing...

These players are mere images of one another right down to assists and turnovers. A healthy Neal is going to shoot a better % and play a smidge better defense. Belinelli might have a little more play making ability but regardless of how you slice it, they are one in the same. Belinelli isn't the upgrade people are making him out to be.

I guess you could say the only real major difference is that while Neal was a liability at SG, Belinelli will be one at both the SG and backup SF positions. Like I said, he'd better kick it up a couple of notches this year if he's going to make any kind of impact.

[Skull-1]

These players are mere images of one another right down to assists and turnovers. A healthy Neal is going to shoot a better % and play a smidge better defense. Belinelli might have a little more play making ability but regardless of how you slice it, they are one in the same. Belinelli isn't the upgrade people are making him out to be.

I guess you could say the only real major difference is that while Neal was a liability at SG, Belinelli will be one at both the SG and backup SF positions. Like I said, he'd better kick it up a couple of notches this year if he's going to make any kind of impact.. As I feared. We are older. Didn't adjust. Didn't add anyone that improves us. Are going to suffer all season over Turnobili and his epic Game Six Rimjob.

[Holden_Caulfield]

:lol come in handy :lol

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

I saw a couple great contests against Dwayne Wades turn around jumpers on Friday night, they went in, but his hands were as close as they could get without fouling or falling on him. I don't think he's as bad as Neal defensively, no way, and also he's 2 inches taller and has a longer wing-span (I think).

[ace3g]

I kept laughing when the Heat commentators thought Neal was our back up SF.

[Roger Freemason Jr.]

I kept laughing when the Heat commentators thought Neal was our back up SF.

I heard that as well. It's like he wanted to correct himself, but just kept talking.

[barakz21]

Neal IS the better, purer shooter. But BellyNelly's a lot more well rounded.

[Ice009]

These players are mere images of one another right down to assists and turnovers. A healthy Neal is going to shoot a better % and play a smidge better defense. Belinelli might have a little more play making ability but regardless of how you slice it, they are one in the same. Belinelli isn't the upgrade people are making him out to be.

I guess you could say the only real major difference is that while Neal was a liability at SG, Belinelli will be one at both the SG and backup SF positions. Like I said, he'd better kick it up a couple of notches this year if he's going to make any kind of impact.

I think he has got more defensive potential than Gary Neal because of his height. He can at least contest shots, instead of having players shoot over the top of him and not being able to do anything about it (like In Neal's case). He's also got much more potential on the offense side of the ball, as he has some play making ability. Gary Neal displayed almost zero play making ability. Having said all that, I agree that Marco will still have to prove it and take it up a notch on the court to reach that potential.

btw do you have something against Marco? It sounds like you do with nearly every post of yours.

[xmas1997]

These things don't happen over night. Beli has to learn the Spurs system. And that won't happen right away. To think that it will is very unrealistic. He played decent defense for the Bulls. Once he gets acclimated I'm pretty sure he will be a lot better than Neal was on defense, but it may take awhile to see this.
People have already explained his offensive advantages to Neal.

[Maddog]

I've always liked Beli when watching him play for other teams. that said, you tend not to notice a players fault as much.
A couple of thoughts-
And I guess it really comes down to a Neal comparisons
1. Offensively- neal is a better shooter, but Beli overall is a better offensive player
2. Defensively at this point is a wash, but beli can be a lot better. He seems a lot bigger than 6'5"
also younger than Neal

[Dex]

Beli has only been with the team a few weeks and is still learning the system. If no0b-Belinelli is on the same level as Neal was after years in the system...I'll take it.

[will_spurs]

I don't know Belinelli... just looking at the box score he had pretty much exactly the same numbers as Neal last year, except he needed a few more minutes to get them, and his scoring % aren't as good. Reading this thread it appears it's a wash, with maybe a bit more upside for Belinelli on the defensive end, but this will require quite a bit of time anyway and we might just never see it.

Right now Neal is being paid $500k more than Belinelli (both have a 2-year contract).

So... why did the FO replace a guy who knew the Spurs system by a similar player who doesn't just to save $500k per year over 2 years? Were they really so fed up with Neal that they thought they might as well sign his clone and hope for the best?

[barakz21]

Beli has only been with the team a few weeks and is still learning the system. If no0b-Belinelli is on the same level as Neal was after years in the system...I'll take it.

Thats the goods right there.

[barakz21]

Beli at least TRIES on defense and puts up a challenge. More often than not, Neal would just watch when his man blows by him and won't attempt to recover

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I don't know Belinelli... just looking at the box score he had pretty much exactly the same numbers as Neal last year, except he needed a few more minutes to get them, and his scoring % aren't as good. Reading this thread it appears it's a wash, with maybe a bit more upside for Belinelli on the defensive end, but this will require quite a bit of time anyway and we might just never see it.

Right now Neal is being paid $500k more than Belinelli (both have a 2-year contract).

So... why did the FO replace a guy who knew the Spurs system by a similar player who doesn't just to save $500k per year over 2 years? Were they really so fed up with Neal that they thought they might as well sign his clone and hope for the best?

Beli is a much better all around player than Neal. Getting him to sign for less than what Neal got was a very shrewd move. His shooting percentages will improve in the Spurs system.

[xmas1997]

Beli is a much better all around player than Neal. Getting him to sign for less than what Neal got was a very shrewd move. His shooting percentages will improve in the Spurs system.

As will his defense.

[look_at_g_shred]

Beli is a much better all around player than Neal. Getting him to sign for less than what Neal got was a very shrewd move. His shooting percentages will improve in the Spurs system.
Metal brethren?

[Dex]

Barry looked lost when he got here, too.

[xmas1997]

Barry looked lost when he got here, too.

So did Horry, Finley, even Timmy looked that way at first. It just takes time to adjust to a new system, and especially one as complicated as the Spurs is.
All the new coaching staff will have to adjust too.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Metal brethren?

Yep.

[look_at_g_shred]

Yep.
Hellyeah lol

[Raven]

delusional tbh

[Ice009]

I don't know Belinelli... just looking at the box score he had pretty much exactly the same numbers as Neal last year, except he needed a few more minutes to get them, and his scoring % aren't as good. Reading this thread it appears it's a wash, with maybe a bit more upside for Belinelli on the defensive end, but this will require quite a bit of time anyway and we might just never see it.

Right now Neal is being paid $500k more than Belinelli (both have a 2-year contract).

So... why did the FO replace a guy who knew the Spurs system by a similar player who doesn't just to save $500k per year over 2 years? Were they really so fed up with Neal that they thought they might as well sign his clone and hope for the best?

Belinelli has more potential than Neal to be a better all around player. Why is it so hard for people around here to understand that?

[monkeypunk]

Were they really so fed up with Neal that they thought they might as well sign his clone and hope for the best?

Calling Beli a clone of Neal proves that you haven't seen Beli play. He actually looks to work within the offense rather than just jack up shots all night. Neal can get away with that to a degree due to his crazy high shooting % but Beli will actually make the team better rather than just hitting shots now and then.

[monkeypunk]

Belinelli has more potential than Neal to be a better all around player. Why is it so hard for people around here to understand that?

I'd say he's already a better all around player with the potential to be much more given good minutes in the Spurs system, as long as he can stay out of Pops doghouse.

[HI-FI]

signing Beli over Neal was one of the few decisions that I really liked this offseason. I can't wait to see him grow in this system.

[Skull-1]

signing Beli over Neal was one of the few decisions that I really liked this offseason. I can't wait to see him grow in this system.
I hope you guys are right...

[Hoops Czar]

I think he has got more defensive potential than Gary Neal because of his height. He can at least contest shots, instezaqad of having players shoot over the top of him and not being able to do anything about it (like In Neal's case). He's also got much more potential on the offense side of the ball, as he has some play making ability. Gary Neal displayed almost zero play making ability. Having said all that, I agree that Marco will still have to prove it and take it up a notch on the court to reach that potential.

btw do you have something against Marco? It sounds like you do with nearly every post of yours.

I have nothing against Belinelli and wish him all the best. My problem is the way people are perceiving him. We're talking about a player who's played for 5 different teams in 7 years. A guy that the offensively challenged Bulls didn't even want back for the minimum. It's real easy to say Belinelli's better because he's here now and Neal's gone but actual data doesn't support that claim.

His saving grace at this point is his ability to be that second playmaker the Spurs desperately need with the second unit and the ability to get into the restricted area, and draw fouls. It remains to be seen if he can do this on a consistent basis. If he continues to settle for long jumpers like he has throughout most of the pre-season, then Belinelli will never reach his full potential in a Spurs uniform. I would rather see him drive and dish on every possession 10 times out of 10 times rather than watch him shoot the Spurs out of games with his long range, man in his face, off balance three point prayers. They already have Ginobili for that.

[Skull-1]

His saving grace at this point is his ability to be that second playmaker the Spurs desperately need with the second unit and the ability to get into the restricted area, and draw fouls. It remains to be seen if he can do this on a consistent basis. If he continues to settle for long jumpers like he has throughout most of the pre-season, then Belinelli will never reach his full potential in a Spurs uniform. I would rather see him drive and dish on every possession 10 times out of 10 times rather than watch him shoot the Spurs out of games with his long range, man in his face, off balance three point prayers. They already have Ginobili for that.


I used to worry Parker and his heroball mentality would rub off on Ginobili. Now I have to fear Manu will rub off on Belinelli? Great.

[barakz21]

So did Horry, Finley, even Timmy looked that way at first. It just takes time to adjust to a new system, and especially one as complicated as the Spurs is.
All the new coaching staff will have to adjust too.

For real? Wow I didn't know that until just now. But to be fair, I didn't even know Timmy existed until the 01 season. Obviously, that's when I became a TD and Spurs can lol

[barakz21]

I have nothing against Belinelli and wish him all the best. My problem is the way people are perceiving him. We're talking about a player who's played for 5 different teams in 7 years. A guy that the offensively challenged Bulls didn't even want back for the minimum. It's real easy to say Belinelli's better because he's here now and Neal's gone but actual data doesn't support that claim.

His saving grace at this point is his ability to be that second playmaker the Spurs desperately need with the second unit and the ability to get into the restricted area, and draw fouls. It remains to be seen if he can do this on a consistent basis. If he continues to settle for long jumpers like he has throughout most of the pre-season, then Belinelli will never reach his full potential in a Spurs uniform. I would rather see him drive and dish on every possession 10 times out of 10 times rather than watch him shoot the Spurs out of games with his long range, man in his face, off balance three point prayers. They already have Ginobili for that.

The man's got a point. That was actually my initial thought when I heard about he signing. Was concerned why he played on 5 teams in 7 years. Everyone knows he's good offensively, and he doesn't look terrible character wise, but you gotta wonder..

[xmas1997]

For real? Wow I didn't know that until just now. But to be fair, I didn't even know Timmy existed until the 01 season. Obviously, that's when I became a TD and Spurs can lol

It took a while for Timmy and David to learn the best way to play together as the Twin Towers, it was an adjustment not only for Tim, but for David too, yet before long they were tearing up the league.

[monkeypunk]

I think Beli is a step ahead on the Spurs versus his previous teams, Pop has learned from Manu to let players like this make their mistakes. Beli knows this and should acclimate here faster than on his old teams.

[TrueSpursFan]

As we have all see, the Spurs' system make it possible for players to play to their full potential. To me, 5 teams in 7 years doesn't mean much. We've seen players come through here, that have been on the butt end of a teams rotation, and shine. I don't see why that can't be possible with Marco.

[xmas1997]

As we have all see, the Spurs' system make it possible for players to play to their full potential. To me, 5 teams in 7 years doesn't mean much. We've seen players come through here, that have been on the butt end of a teams rotation, and shine. I don't see why that can't be possible with Marco.

It was possible for Diaw and Green to name two current Spurs.

[tenbeersbold]

Until Nelli does something like win us a Finals game (like Neal did in game 3,cause that sh*t was going sideways till Neal started shooting lights out,Green did most of his damage after Neal broke it wide open) or the buzzer beater that tied game 5 vs the Grizz in '11 he aint nobody yet sorry.

We lost a big time shooter and I hope Belli can live up to it but I got a feelin' we're gonna miss Gary's quick release and no fear

[ace3g]

Until Nelli does something like win us a Finals game (like Neal did in game 3,cause that sh*t was going sideways till Neal started shooting lights out,Green did most of his damage after Neal broke it wide open) or the buzzer beater that tied game 5 vs the Grizz in '11 he aint nobody yet sorry.

We lost a big time shooter and I hope Belli can live up to it but I got a feelin' we're gonna miss Gary's quick release and no fear

Let me know the next time Belinelli loses Mike Miller (who is missing a shoe) for a big 3 or doesn't try to contest a Mario Chalmers buzzer beater to end 3rd quarter in game 7 of the Finals which instead of being up 2 put us down 1...

Neal it was scoring or bust when he was in the game....Belinelli even on bad shooting nights you won't be like (for the most part) "why is he still on the floor" because he can make an impact other ways besides scoring (assists, rebound, etc).

[FuzzyLumpkins]

These things don't happen over night. Beli has to learn the Spurs system. And that won't happen right away. To think that it will is very unrealistic. He played decent defense for the Bulls. Once he gets acclimated I'm pretty sure he will be a lot better than Neal was on defense, but it may take awhile to see this.
People have already explained his offensive advantages to Neal.

This is true. People want to compare Neal at the need of last year to Belli. If you look back to Neal at the beginning of two years ago, Gary was his own special brand of awful.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Let me know the next time Belinelli loses Mike Miller (who is missing a shoe) for a big 3 or doesn't try to contest a Mario Chalmers buzzer beater to end 3rd quarter in game 7 of the Finals which instead of being up 2 put us down 1...

Neal it was scoring or bust when he was in the game....Belinelli even on bad shooting nights you won't be like (for the most part) "why is he still on the floor" because he can make an impact other ways besides scoring (assists, rebound, etc).

Neal had balls of brass no doubt but his bballiq and awareness is pretty bad. Mills too for what thats worth.

[will_spurs]

Belinelli even on bad shooting nights you won't be like (for the most part) "why is he still on the floor" because he can make an impact other ways besides scoring (assists, rebound, etc).

Belinelli averaged 2 assists and 2 rebounds per game in 25 minutes last year.
Neal averaged 2 assists and 2 rebounds per game in 21 minutes last year.

Belinelli's going to have to play A LOT better than he played AT ANY POINT in his career to really be better than Neal. It could happen. Odds say it won't.

[therealtruth]

If Belinelli can defend a guy with one shoe on he's already better than Neal.

[Sean Cagney]

Let me know the next time Belinelli loses Mike Miller (who is missing a shoe) for a big 3 or doesn't try to contest a Mario Chalmers buzzer beater to end 3rd quarter in game 7 of the Finals which instead of being up 2 put us down 1...

Neal it was scoring or bust when he was in the game....Belinelli even on bad shooting nights you won't be like (for the most part) "why is he still on the floor" because he can make an impact other ways besides scoring (assists, rebound, etc).
............

[TE]

Let me know the next time Belinelli loses Mike Miller (who is missing a shoe) for a big 3 or doesn't try to contest a Mario Chalmers buzzer beater to end 3rd quarter in game 7 of the Finals which instead of being up 2 put us down 1...

Neal it was scoring or bust when he was in the game....Belinelli even on bad shooting nights you won't be like (for the most part) "why is he still on the floor" because he can make an impact other ways besides scoring (assists, rebound, etc).
ace3g with the goods, tbh. Beli is a significant upgrade over Neal. Neal was a decent scorer but he almost always felt out of sync with the offense taking bad shots and overall bad decisions with the ball. Neal was also a crap defender with basement level awareness. Addition by subtraction, tbh.

[Ice009]

It took a while for Timmy and David to learn the best way to play together as the Twin Towers, it was an adjustment not only for Tim, but for David too, yet before long they were tearing up the league.

I don't think you can include Tim in that list. For starters, the system was still developing as Pop hadn't even coached a full season yet. Pop's first full season was Tim's rookie season, and Tim became the go to guy halfway through his rookie season. He was that good, and it didn't take Tim long at all. David, very graciously, stepped aside when he saw how good Tim was. The system was built around David and Tim as they learned to play together. Tim didn't walk into an already established system that he had to learn. He was a part of making the system what it is today.

[Ice009]

Let me know the next time Belinelli loses Mike Miller (who is missing a shoe) for a big 3 or doesn't try to contest a Mario Chalmers buzzer beater to end 3rd quarter in game 7 of the Finals which instead of being up 2 put us down 1...

Neal it was scoring or bust when he was in the game....Belinelli even on bad shooting nights you won't be like (for the most part) "why is he still on the floor" because he can make an impact other ways besides scoring (assists, rebound, etc).

Man, the Spurs had a few chances, yet made some silly mistakes that turned into great fortune for the Heat. I actually forgot about Neal leaving a shoeless Miller open for that three. I guess I have blocked out most of the finals apart from the end of game 6. Some of Neal's lapses/stupidity cost us big time. I was so mad when he left Miller open for that three and also for not contesting that Chalmers shot. Before Chalmers hit that shot, I was yelling that we cannot let them hit a bullshit shot here, and what do you know, Gary Neal shit the bed again and allowed him to get a good look off. Surely, Belinelli won't make stupid mistakes like that?

[tenbeersbold]

Umm,yeah but the REAL stats don't back up any of what you say..sorry

per NBA.com career avg's

NEAL 9.7ppg,2.2 rbds,1.7 assts
NELLI 9ppg,1.8 rbds,1.5 assts

Neal also has better FT and 3pt percentage and FG percentages so exactly in what aspect of the game statistically is Nelli an upgrade please?!?

It's fine to be emo about it but it doesn't make it true

Oh and the list of players far more talented than Neal and also burned by Mike Miller is well.... he's Mike Miller and he was on the Heat for a reason

[HI-FI]

If Belinelli can defend a guy with one shoe on he's already better than Neal.

/thread

[mountainballer]

Umm,yeah but the REAL stats don't back up any of what you say..sorry

per NBA.com career avg's

NEAL 9.7ppg,2.2 rbds,1.7 assts
NELLI 9ppg,1.8 rbds,1.5 assts

Neal also has better FT and 3pt percentage and FG percentages so exactly in what aspect of the game statistically is Nelli an upgrade please?!?

It's fine to be emo about it but it doesn't make it true

Oh and the list of players far more talented than Neal and also burned by Mike Miller is well.... he's Mike Miller and he was on the Heat for a reason

you missed the point of about 20 posts here.....(reading would help)

Beli will be an upgrade, because even as an average defender that he is, he will be much less of a liability than Neal was.

and you also ignored the fact that we are not talking about prime Mike Miller. we are talking about rusty Mike Miller on one shoe. that's like losing a stock car race against a 1980 Buick on a flat tire.

[Vash StampedE]

Let's just hope that he is more or equally clutch as Neal.

[Hoops Czar]

you missed the point of about 20 posts here.....(reading would help)

Beli will be an upgrade, because even as an average defender that he is, he will be much less of a liability than Neal was.

and you also ignored the fact that we are not talking about prime Mike Miller. we are talking about rusty Mike Miller on one shoe. that's like losing a stock car race against a 1980 Buick on a flat tire.

If we want to make things up, so be it.

Marco Belinelli

D-rating

21- 115
22- 116
23- 114
24- 109
25- 109
26- 107

Gary Neal

D-rating

26- 109
27- 107
28- 106

I don't know what you call average, but Belinelli's best defensive year came last year and I think Thibbs knows a thing or two about defense and he still gave up 107 points per 100 possessions. What the numbers suggest is that Neal is a slightly better defender than Belinelli. Even if the difference may seem negligible to some, he's not even close to an average defender. I'm not defending Neal's bad defense but, if you watched the Bulls last year, I'm sure you could easily find some equally bad defensive sequences that could compare to Miller's missing shoe three pointer. Pop is really has his work cut out for him trying to transform a bad defender into a somewhat respectable one.

WS/48

Marco Belinelli

22- .028
23- .049
24- .084
25- .071
26- .076

Gary Neal

26- .099
27- .101
28- .060 (playing injured)

I don't know how someone could even suggest with a straight face that Belinelli is the better player. Once again, the number suggest otherwise. Who knows, Beli has never played on a team with this much fire power. Maybe playing alongside three future HOF's will alleviate some of the everyday pressures of leading an offense to victory and he can develop into a solid contributor off the bench while adding some much needed depth to the second unit. But for now, he still has to prove himself.

[barakz21]

Belinelli averaged 2 assists and 2 rebounds per game in 25 minutes last year.
Neal averaged 2 assists and 2 rebounds per game in 21 minutes last year.

Belinelli's going to have to play A LOT better than he played AT ANY POINT in his career to really be better than Neal. It could happen. Odds say it won't.

Numbers don't tell the whole story though. With the eye test alone, it's safe to say that Neal looking to score is his first, second, third and fourth option. Passing is his fifth. Besides, a lot of his shots are forced. Beli otoh takes his shots within the flow of the offense, and he makes the passes that are end up becoming someone else's assist.

[ace3g]

Numbers don't tell the whole story though. With the eye test alone, it's safe to say that Neal looking to score is his first, second, third and fourth option. Passing is his fifth. Besides, a lot of his shots are forced. Beli otoh takes his shots within the flow of the offense, and he makes the passes that are end up becoming someone else's assist.

Yeah, Belinelli has already had some good hockey assists throughout the preseason.

Also like others have mentioned stats aren't everything, if you scout a player just on stats then there are a lot all star level players in Division II basketball.

[Raven]

If we want to make things up, so be it.

Marco Belinelli

D-rating

21- 115
22- 116
23- 114
24- 109
25- 109
26- 107

Gary Neal

D-rating

26- 109
27- 107
28- 106

I don't know what you call average, but Belinelli's best defensive year came last year and I think Thibbs knows a thing or two about defense and he still gave up 107 points per 100 possessions. What the numbers suggest is that Neal is a slightly better defender than Belinelli. Even if the difference may seem negligible to some, he's not even close to an average defender. I'm not defending Neal's bad defense but, if you watched the Bulls last year, I'm sure you could easily find some equally bad defensive sequences that could compare to Miller's missing shoe three pointer. Pop is really has his work cut out for him trying to transform a bad defender into a somewhat respectable one.

WS/48

Marco Belinelli

22- .028
23- .049
24- .084
25- .071
26- .076

Gary Neal

26- .099
27- .101
28- .060 (playing injured)

I don't know how someone could even suggest with a straight face that Belinelli is the better player. Once again, the number suggest otherwise. Who knows, Beli has never played on a team with this much fire power. Maybe playing alongside three future HOF's will alleviate some of the everyday pressures of leading an offense to victory and he can develop into a solid contributor off the bench while adding some much needed depth to the second unit. But for now, he still has to prove himself.

AMEN.

[barakz21]

Yeah, Belinelli has already had some good hockey assists throughout the preseason.

Also like others have mentioned stats aren't everything, if you scout a player just on stats then there are a lot all star level players in Division II basketball.

Ace couldn't have said it any better.

[mountainballer]

I don't know how someone could even suggest with a straight face that Belinelli is the better player.

http://img.jspace.com/screen-shot-2013-03-15-at-2-08-07-pm-m-99119.jpg

"Belinelli IS the better player"

[tenbeersbold]

Umm,no he isn't....

By every single measureable NBA stat Neal is superior

I know comprehension isn't exactly yer bag but reality should be

But then again you have a Spain avatar,y'all never liked them darkies much anyhoo

Which 'splains a lot

[TheWriter]

Who the "better" player is, is pointless. It's about who's the better fit. Belinelli is the BETTER fit for the Spurs.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I just watched Bellinelli last night and he has the quickness length and physicality to keep his man in front of him. Neal flailed around like a retarded chicken slow on rotations leading to blocking fouls when he wasn't losing his man for open 3's or giving up open lanes to the basket.

And NBA defensive metrics are about as meaningful as defensive metrics in baseball. What it measures is not the actions of the individual in question, it measures the conglomerate of the team when he is participating.

There are other means of looking at it such as player pairs that LJ would post like

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206904
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208734
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200042

they paint a different picture where he makes the people around him worse.

[mountainballer]

Umm,no he isn't....
By every single measureable NBA stat Neal is superior


well, following your logic Garnett, Malone and Barkley are superior to Tim.
oh, they are not.
but you just claimed they are.



I know comprehension isn't exactly yer bag but reality should be


in reality Beli is better than Neal.
wait. maybe THAT'S the reason why the Spurs didn't re sign Neal and replaced him with Beli.



But then again you have a Spain avatar,y'all never liked them darkies much anyhoo

Which 'splains a lot

ah, I have a Spain avatar. and you really used the word comprehension?
please use your comprehension, or whatever you think that might be and explain this logic. or buy a globe, you illiterate.

and btw. I like Tim more than Dirk. there goes the last of your brilliant arguments.

[barakz21]

I just watched Bellinelli last night and he has the quickness length and physicality to keep his man in front of him. Neal flailed around like a retarded chicken slow on rotations leading to blocking fouls when he wasn't losing his man for open 3's or giving up open lanes to the basket.

And NBA defensive metrics are about as meaningful as defensive metrics in baseball. What it measures is not the actions of the individual in question, it measures the conglomerate of the team when he is participating.

There are other means of looking at it such as player pairs that LJ would post like

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206904
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208734
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200042

they paint a different picture where he makes the people around him worse.

:lmao

[tenbeersbold]

well, following your logic Garnett, Malone and Barkley are superior to Tim.
oh, they are not.
but you just claimed they are.



in reality Beli is better than Neal.
wait. maybe THAT'S the reason why the Spurs didn't re sign Neal and replaced him with Beli.



ah, I have a Spain avatar. and you really used the word comprehension?
please use your comprehension, or whatever you think that might be and explain this logic. or buy a globe, you illiterate.

and btw. I like Tim more than Dirk. there goes the last of your brilliant arguments.

OK,so yer a Nazi... my bad,it was bright and I couldn't see the flag avatar all that clear on the small screen

And actually dumbass my description of yer avatar was correct in English,which isn't yer mother tongue so yer Aryan ass gets a pass there

And if you don't include those players that you metioned in the conversation w/ Tim...wow even dumber than a nuttn ;)

[monkeypunk]

And if you don't include those players that you metioned in the conversation w/ Tim...wow even dumber than a nuttn ;)

The hell is a nuttn?

[mountainballer]

no idea.
but I guess he somehow tries to be witty by using a term he thinks is German.
oh well. epic fail.

he's a bit like that guy:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1iGMnJCW7Ec/TMHPiXtZFdI/AAAAAAABhvA/DFDuo8L34mM/s1600/wanda.jpg

Otto West: Don't call me stupid.

Wanda: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?

Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.

Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement.

[monkeypunk]

no idea.
but I guess he somehow tries to be witty by using a term he thinks is German.
oh well. epic fail.

he's a bit like that guy:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1iGMnJCW7Ec/TMHPiXtZFdI/AAAAAAABhvA/DFDuo8L34mM/s1600/wanda.jpg

Otto West: Don't call me stupid.

Wanda: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?

Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.

Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement.

:lol Assssssshoooooooooole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[monkeypunk]

Who the "better" player is, is pointless. It's about who's the better fit. Belinelli is the BETTER fit for the Spurs.

This.

[hater]

Marco is a BASKETBALL player.

Neal was just a lucky shooter with clutch skills, but a ballhog in the end. Yes I still do keep him in my avatar. Neal with it.

[PlayNando]

Belinelli + Nando = victory, tbh.

[ace3g]

I mentioned his cuts and movement without the ball as a plus and I liked this one play last night with Manu; both started at opposite wings, they both made cuts to the basket, and as they crossed paths under the basket their defenders got caught if they should stay on their man or switch which led to an open 3 for Manu.

[look_at_g_shred]

Marco is a BASKETBALL player.

Yes I still do keep him in my avatar. Neal with it.
:lol

[hater]

I mentioned his cuts and movement without the ball as a plus and I liked this one play last night with Manu; both started at opposite wings, they both made cuts to the basket, and as they crossed paths under the basket their defenders got caught if they should stay on their man or switch which led to an open 3 for Manu.

good point. Using both might be a good idea. I am for anything that avoids having Manu hog the ball at the point and then proceed to pass it to an open Heat player or the lady in the first row.

[ace3g]

good point. Using both might be a good idea. I am for anything that avoids having Manu hog the ball at the point and then proceed to pass it to an open Heat player or the lady in the first row.

It is good for more than that, especially at times when Parker is played by a taller/longer defender. Having essentially 2 new play makers added to the roster (Kawhi's improvement and Belinelli) will be great come playoff time.

[spursince#99]

Reading this thread, I couldn't help but to comment. A lot of you "stat guro's" know absolutely nothing. Marco will put up better stats than Neal across the entire board including his shooting percentages. Mark my words, he's a much better player and defender.

[xmas1997]

Ok, R.C., grab Nunnally while you can, the second coming of Bowen. :lol

[tenbeersbold]

no idea.
but I guess he somehow tries to be witty by using a term he thinks is German.
oh well. epic fail.

he's a bit like that guy:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1iGMnJCW7Ec/TMHPiXtZFdI/AAAAAAABhvA/DFDuo8L34mM/s1600/wanda.jpg

Otto West: Don't call me stupid.

Wanda: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?

Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.

Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Shit taste in movies and not even literate in yer own slang..LMFAO you are truly clueless.

[Hoops Czar]

I just watched Bellinelli last night and he has the quickness length and physicality to keep his man in front of him. Neal flailed around like a retarded chicken slow on rotations leading to blocking fouls when he wasn't losing his man for open 3's or giving up open lanes to the basket.

And NBA defensive metrics are about as meaningful as defensive metrics in baseball. What it measures is not the actions of the individual in question, it measures the conglomerate of the team when he is participating.

There are other means of looking at it such as player pairs that LJ would post like

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206904
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208734
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200042

they paint a different picture where he makes the people around him worse.

You can find fault in any stat if you try hard enough. You just have to know how and when to use them. For instance, in order to use UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating) properly, you need to take a three year sample size in order to get an accurate reading. Think of it this way, one year of UZR data is on par with about 50-55 games of offense. Therefore, it would take three years to complete one UZR cycle. UZR/150 is even more misleading because of its large swings in data from year to year. Still, little things like judgement calls can affect the rating as well. A chopper to short, booted by the second baseman could be scored a hit or error depending on the official scorer. That could have a negative impact on a player's defensive rating.

I'm also aware of the pitfalls associated with O-rating and D-rating because these stats revolve more around team offense and defense rather than one's individual offense or defense. However, I do like to look at trends. For a player like Marco, who has played for five different teams and to see his D-rating basically unchanged leads me to believe his defense isn't that good or the "team" defense while he's on the court has struggled. You can talk about the eyeball test all you want, but your using preseason data for your end result analysis. That's not too concrete if you ask me. Most of these teams aren't going full tilt, trying out different rotations and acclimating new additions. And don't go ham on me over his 16 point 5 steal performance against the happless Magic.

Also, I wasn't defending Neal's bad defense so I'm not sure you needed to point it out by using Timvp's statistical in game analysis. I don't know how many times it needs to be said that Neal isn't a PG. When the coach puts his player in a position to fail, chances are he's going to. And yeah, you saw the end result of SG playing out of position, running around the court like a chicken with his head chopped off, trying to chase down PG's. Hopefully Pop learned his lesson and Belinelli won't see much action there or the results will be the same. While were on the subject of misleading statistics, how about Blair being a darn good defender, a strong defensive pairing with Bonner. This is one of my favorites though...


Let's bring in Danny Green. Wow. I’ve called him out at times for having horrific defensive games (Kobe Bryant’s first game against him comes to mind, as does his last outing against Jared Dudley). But I find it surprising that he grades out as the absolute worst defender on the team. Considering that he plays most of his minutes next to four above average defenders in Duncan, Splitter, Leonard and Parker, that’s just not acceptable. Last year, he had great defensive numbers in the regular season and the playoffs -- so I’m not sure what happening. Offensively, Green is fine; maybe even better than expected given his streakiness.

-Thinking more about Green’s D numbers, one could point to Ginobili’s fluky great D numbers and say Green’s D could just be fluky in the other direction. I don’t really buy that though because he’s even dragging down the team’s best defenders and some of his numbers are putrid. The only sliver of light I see is his number next to Leonard (98.3). We all saw how horrible Green was when he was shoehorned into playing small forward. Maybe he just really, really needs a strong defensive small forward next to him in order to hide his deficiencies. Whatever the issue, we should keep an eye on it going forward.

Granted, these stats are from two years ago but the exercise in futility remains the same. In fact, the only reason I brought this up was because there were many posters who thought he was an underrated defender. A simple analysis determined that to be false. Why would you talk about the eyeball test, then back up your claims with stats? There needs to be a happy medium between watching the games and using metrics to determine a player's value or the end result will be what is known as the "De Colo" affect.

Also, WS in basketball is the equivalent to WAR in baseball. It's hard to overlook the fact that Belinelli has been a below average player in the league while Neal was at least league average. It could be due to Marco being the first or second option on his team, which in turn, dragged his overall numbers down. Maybe, he can carve himself out a nice small role with the Spurs where can be just one of the guy instead of THE guy.

I haven't given up on Belinelli and think he can be an asset. For me, he still has to prove himself on the court and show consistency on a nightly basis, something that plagued Neal from day one.

[Baam]

Lol at the Beli apologists "you can't play for Thibs without being a good defender", yeah you can when no one else available.

Beli = Neal and that's the best case scenario considering how great Neal has been in the POs

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Lol at the Beli apologists "you can't play for Thibs without being a good defender", yeah you can when no one else available.

Beli = Neal and that's the best case scenario considering how great Neal has been in the POs

Simpleminded equation doesn't provide much insight. It's just dumbing stuff down so it's easily taken in by those that lack insight and critical thinking.

Bellinelli overplayed Harden a couple of times and got burned but he wasn't flailing around like Neal was wont to do nor was he completely losing him as Neal was also wont to do. He also had a couple of good possessions. Harden is the best 2 in the league right now.

[Baam]

Simpleminded equation doesn't provide much insight. It's just dumbing stuff down so it's easily taken in by those that lack insight and critical thinking.

We'll talk about it in 3 years bro.

Neal hit a season saving shot and was the best player of a Finals game... Truth is Beli doesn't have much of a shot at doing as good, I was generous in my previous post...

[Dex]

At least Belinelli knows how to work around a goddamn screen.

[xmas1997]

It looks like to me that Beli is coming around just fine. He is learning arguably the hardest defensive system in the league. He will get there, he seems to improve each game. I am not worried in the slightest.

[will_spurs]

Yeah, Belinelli has already had some good hockey assists throughout the preseason.

Also like others have mentioned stats aren't everything, if you scout a player just on stats then there are a lot all star level players in Division II basketball.

The thing is, we aren't looking at Div II players: one went to the Finals, and the other was playing for a contender.

Chicago is known for its D and he could still achieve a rather bad DRtg (106) as HoopsCzar pointed out. Just for the record a guy like Tony Parker who gets lambasted on a daily basis around here for being a very average defender at best (I disagree but that's another matter) has a DRtg of 104... Beli's career ORtg = 105 and DRtg = 110.

All in all I'm happy if Beli outperforms... but I wouldn't bet too much money on that, as there's simply NO indication whatsoever that he's better than Neal in any way, shape or form. The Spurs will already be lucky if he's simply as good as Neal.

Oh, and for those who say "why do you think the FO cut Neal and signed Beli", just remember that Beli was cut by Chicago... and ask yourself which team in the NBA currently plays the closest to the Spurs in terms of style, focus and system...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You can find fault in any stat if you try hard enough. You just have to know how and when to use them. For instance, in order to use UZR (Ultimate Zone Rating) properly, you need to take a three year sample size in order to get an accurate reading. Think of it this way, one year of UZR data is on par with about 50-55 games of offense. Therefore, it would take three years to complete one UZR cycle. UZR/150 is even more misleading because of its large swings in data from year to year. Still, little things like judgement calls can affect the rating as well. A chopper to short, booted by the second baseman could be scored a hit or error depending on the official scorer. That could have a negative impact on a player's defensive rating.

I'm also aware of the pitfalls associated with O-rating and D-rating because these stats revolve more around team offense and defense rather than one's individual offense or defense. However, I do like to look at trends. For a player like Marco, who has played for five different teams and to see his D-rating basically unchanged leads me to believe his defense isn't that good or the "team" defense while he's on the court has struggled. You can talk about the eyeball test all you want, but your using preseason data for your end result analysis. That's not too concrete if you ask me. Most of these teams aren't going full tilt, trying out different rotations and acclimating new additions. And don't go ham on me over his 16 point 5 steal performance against the happless Magic.

Also, I wasn't defending Neal's bad defense so I'm not sure you needed to point it out by using Timvp's statistical in game analysis. I don't know how many times it needs to be said that Neal isn't a PG. When the coach puts his player in a position to fail, chances are he's going to. And yeah, you saw the end result of SG playing out of position, running around the court like a chicken with his head chopped off, trying to chase down PG's. Hopefully Pop learned his lesson and Belinelli won't see much action there or the results will be the same. While were on the subject of misleading statistics, how about Blair being a darn good defender, a strong defensive pairing with Bonner. This is one of my favorites though...



Granted, these stats are from two years ago but the exercise in futility remains the same. In fact, the only reason I brought this up was because there were many posters who thought he was an underrated defender. A simple analysis determined that to be false. Why would you talk about the eyeball test, then back up your claims with stats? There needs to be a happy medium between watching the games and using metrics to determine a player's value or the end result will be what is known as the "De Colo" affect.

Also, WS in basketball is the equivalent to WAR in baseball. It's hard to overlook the fact that Belinelli has been a below average player in the league while Neal was at least league average. It could be due to Marco being the first or second option on his team, which in turn, dragged his overall numbers down. Maybe, he can carve himself out a nice small role with the Spurs where can be just one of the guy instead of THE guy.

I haven't given up on Belinelli and think he can be an asset. For me, he still has to prove himself on the court and show consistency on a nightly basis, something that plagued Neal from day one.

UZR hardly correlates to wins with any sample size. I was just using it as an example how defensive stats in teams situations are poor as the calculations are not similar. UZR at least attempts to consider the actions of the individual with his zone.

WAR is cumulative. WS is not. WAR is offense, defense and base running. WS is offensive stats + rebounds. Neal was a chucker who got tons of open 3's. I am not surprised that he contributed lots of points efficiently.

Neal was awful defensively at the 1, 2 or any other cover. As you pointed out the futility is the same but watching Neal attempt to get low in his stance, move his feet, try to fight through screens, make his rotations, sag off his guy and recover or any other defensive fundamental was painful and frustrating to watch. I don't know how many times I saw Neal fight through a screen and get lost in the wash just standing there in the middle of the paint letting both screener and roller free or lose his guy off the ball for open looks behind the arc.

[ElNono]

just remember that Beli was cut by Chicago...

Uh? Belli contract with the Bulls was for 1 year using the bi-annual exception. He was a free agent this summer.

[james evans]

first of all, i don't think anyone is as bad as neal defensively. mike miller was loving those open 3's.

[james evans]

Glad for that. Neal always made me cringe bringing the ball up the floor.... Wasn't it the infamous First Round Series against Memphis where he was turning it over left and right on the dribble up even with Parker in?
but that 3 pointer in game 5 was one of the biggest in spurs history. i swear that ball was in the air for a good minutes haha. he's a shitty player though.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The thing is, we aren't looking at Div II players: one went to the Finals, and the other was playing for a contender.

Chicago is known for its D and he could still achieve a rather bad DRtg (106) as HoopsCzar pointed out. Just for the record a guy like Tony Parker who gets lambasted on a daily basis around here for being a very average defender at best (I disagree but that's another matter) has a DRtg of 104... Beli's career ORtg = 105 and DRtg = 110.

All in all I'm happy if Beli outperforms... but I wouldn't bet too much money on that, as there's simply NO indication whatsoever that he's better than Neal in any way, shape or form. The Spurs will already be lucky if he's simply as good as Neal.

Oh, and for those who say "why do you think the FO cut Neal and signed Beli", just remember that Beli was cut by Chicago... and ask yourself which team in the NBA currently plays the closest to the Spurs in terms of style, focus and system...

Chicago hedges hard on their pnr. Spurs do not. While I think that both coaches focus on physical defense I do not think that the systems are the same at all.

Belinelli was a FA. He was not 'released.' The Bulls are way over the cap and well into luxury tax territory.

The Bulls also had Boozer, Deng and Robinson in contrast to Duncan, Leonard, and Parker. Prior to playing with the Bulls Belinelli played on awful teams in NO, TOR, and Golden State. This notion that he could not exceed his career averages playing with the Spurs is curious to say the least.