Who's Less Team Oriented This Season, Kobe or Manu?

[DMC]

Sure we have Kobe taking 30m off the table and not even playing, and sure he pretty much was the reason Howard went to Houston instead of staying in LA, and sure he's made the season about him already before it's even started, but what about Manu?

Manu played like shit in the Finals. I think he pretty much cost the Spurs that ring. Never mind his foul on Dirk back when, in the Finals he was a massive liability, talked about hanging it up, kept chucking and turning the ball over ad nauseum to the tune of a lost ring. But... he resigned for another season. Spurs fault? You bet, but Manu knows he's done. He signed for a paycheck, to be some sort of a Latino ambassador or something cheesy like that. Manu should not get off the hook here.

I know all the Manu felchers will pop in and talk about how he's earned whatever, but his contract was up and he already mentally retired. Why not just go away? Sure I'd take him over plenty guys younger than him, but his style of play necessitates that he not be a liability, because it has to eventually turn to your favor instead of him digging a deeper hole.

I can see Tim continuing, hell he was 1st team All NBA last year and it's a no brainer for him, but Manu is done. Everything he does now will be just token minutes and he'll embarrass himself even more. Good thing he doesn't read the papers.

[HI-FI]

To Manu's credit, he's always been more of a team guy than Kobe. Manu won't lose a series just to prove a point or satisfy a sociopathic urge. Still his recklessness has now cost us 2 rings, something his people don't give a shit about. He should've taken more of a paycut but I still can't put him in Kobe's league of selfishness.

[ElNono]

Manu had a shitty season, and it's up to him to prove doubters wrong now. I like he didn't talk too much (it's easy to put a fist in the air and talk about revenge and what not, but talk is cheap) and now his game will speak for him or not.

If anything, he took a fairly sizeable paycut (50%), which means he at least won't be putting pressure on the team cap to sign potential future talent. I think that's what separates him the most from Cancer. I doubt Kirby will do the team a solid and sign for $15m, tbh...

[ShinerBlack]

To Manu's credit, he's always been more of a team guy than Kobe. Manu won't lose a series just to prove a point or satisfy a sociopathic urge. Still his recklessness has now cost us 2 rings, something his people don't give a shit about. He should've taken more of a paycut but I still can't put him in Kobe's league of selfishness.
+1

[DMC]

Manu had a shitty season, and it's up to him to prove doubters wrong now. I like he didn't talk too much (it's easy to put a fist in the air and talk about revenge and what not, but talk is cheap) and now his game will speak for him or not.

If anything, he took a fairly sizeable paycut (50%), which means he at least won't be putting pressure on the team cap to sign potential future talent. I think that's what separates him the most from Cancer. I doubt Kirby will do the team a solid and sign for $15m, tbh...

But Kirby is still on his current contract. He won't take half, that's for sure, but he didn't talk about retiring during the press conference. Get in or get out.

[TDMVPDPOY]

fck manu and his legion of wankers upstairs....htf u forgive and forget, lol 2 loyalty contracts....gtfo

[ElNono]

But Kirby is still on his current contract. He won't take half, that's for sure, but he didn't talk about retiring during the press conference. Get in or get out.

Kirby is on the last season of his deal. That was Manu's situation last season. We'll see how Kirby proceeds, but you and I know what's gonna be happenin'...

Manu never said he was going to retire, tbh... he only mentioned that the thought crossed his mind if the Spurs FO didn't want him back... which thankfully was not the case.

[DMC]

Kirby is on the last season of his deal. That was Manu's situation last season. We'll see how Kirby proceeds, but you and I know what's gonna be happenin'...

Manu never said he was going to retire, tbh... he only mentioned that the thought crossed his mind if the Spurs FO didn't want him back... which thankfully was not the case.

It's one thing when Manu isn't healthy and plays poorly because of it, but his play in the entire playoffs, except a miracle shot, was really poor. As long as he's going to be on the floor, he's going to be throwing the ball away and making decisions that don't take into account his faltering abilities. He hasn't adjusted at all to how he's changed as he's aged both mentally and physically. He's 100mph from the start and when he was in his prime that was a great thing, but his tires are bald (just like his head) and he cannot hold the road, but he's not adjusting his speed.

The 4th quarter in game 6 and that crucial turnover in game 7 weren't anomalies for Manu, that's the problem. People talk about the 3 by Ray Allen, but the Spurs were up double digits at the start of the quarter and it was turnover city for a while.

So with Manu's turnovers and poor execution coupled with Pop's shitty substitutions, it was doomed.

[ElNono]

It's one thing when Manu isn't healthy and plays poorly because of it, but his play in the entire playoffs, except a miracle shot, was really poor. As long as he's going to be on the floor, he's going to be throwing the ball away and making decisions that don't take into account his faltering abilities. He hasn't adjusted at all to how he's changed as he's aged both mentally and physically. He's 100mph from the start and when he was in his prime that was a great thing, but his tires are bald (just like his head) and he cannot hold the road, but he's not adjusting his speed.

The 4th quarter in game 6 and that crucial turnover in game 7 weren't anomalies for Manu, that's the problem. People talk about the 3 by Ray Allen, but the Spurs were up double digits at the start of the quarter and it was turnover city for a while.

So with Manu's turnovers and poor execution coupled with Pop's shitty substitutions, it was doomed.

I don't like the analysis to be limited to specific games or series. I think Miami is a great team that was able to take away the Spurs bread and butter (the P&R), especially on the second unit. Credit to them.

As far as Manu, his whole season was below his standards, which you expect to be high for a player of his caliber. Pop and RC feel he has enough left in the tank to keep playing a leading role in the team, and time will tell if they're right or not. I'm personally happy he's back, he's a big part of our team, he makes other players better (cue "including the opposition", but I digress) and I don't particularly think he's taking anything away from other up and coming potential stars in the team (read Kawhi).

If he sucked AND would be a chucker AND would be chasing his personal records over the team benefit AND would want near-max money, then yeah, that would suck. But that's not the case, IMO.

[TDMVPDPOY]

If he sucked AND would be a chucker AND would be chasing his personal records over the team benefit AND would want near-max money, then yeah, that would suck. But that's not the case, IMO.

his personal records his chasing is....how many turnovers can i make in a game

[Johnny RIngo]

If he sucked AND would be a chucker AND would be chasing his personal records over the team benefit AND would want near-max money, then yeah, that would suck. But that's not the case, IMO.

He chose to play for Argentina last year, got injured, and healed on company time. That's as selfish as it gets. An injury-prone, 35 year old shouldn't even be playing off-season basketball...especially when his NBA team is paying him $14 million.

[AchillesHeel]

fck manu and his legion of wankers upstairs....htf u forgive and forget, lol 2 loyalty contracts....gtfo

This.

[ElNono]

He chose to play for Argentina last year, got injured, and healed on company time. That's as selfish as it gets. An injury-prone, 35 year old shouldn't even be playing off-season basketball...especially when his NBA team is paying him $14 million.

Irrelevant. Manu already sat out NT competitions when he didn't feel fine. Plus that competition was 2 weeks long, and it's not like players don't play or train hard over the summer.

What the Spurs paid him last season also has nothing to do with anything. They signed that contract in 2009, with both sides fully aware he'll play for the NT, and both sides happy with the deal. They were so pleased with it, that they decided this offseason to extend it for 2 more years, despite protests from wrist-cutting posters on Spurstalk...

[ambchang]

Kobe killed his owner. Manu hasn't ... Yet.

[DMC]

I don't like the analysis to be limited to specific games or series. I think Miami is a great team that was able to take away the Spurs bread and butter (the P&R), especially on the second unit. Credit to them.

As far as Manu, his whole season was below his standards, which you expect to be high for a player of his caliber. Pop and RC feel he has enough left in the tank to keep playing a leading role in the team, and time will tell if they're right or not. I'm personally happy he's back, he's a big part of our team, he makes other players better (cue "including the opposition", but I digress) and I don't particularly think he's taking anything away from other up and coming potential stars in the team (read Kawhi).

If he sucked AND would be a chucker AND would be chasing his personal records over the team benefit AND would want near-max money, then yeah, that would suck. But that's not the case, IMO.

You're not making any allowance for ticket sales considerations for Pop and RC. I'm also not saying the Spurs shouldn't have resigned him. I even said I'd still take him over some of the younger talent, however from the standpoint of Manu, who's said many times that it's not the game as much as rehab from injuries that's pushed him into the retirement line, how much is his heart going to be in it? His primary strength is his will to win. He still gets pissed at his mistakes, but that doesn't seem to change his decision making on the floor.

He's not good enough from the 3pt line to be a spot up shooter. He's not good enough anymore at handling the ball to be in the PG role, and his decisions when it comes to making impromptu plays (Manu did it better than anyone in his prime) hasn't been tweaked to allow for his drop off in ability and the league's adaptation of the European style (so he can be more easily defended as people now expect those things from him).

Maybe he doesn't have anything else to give and this is the Spurs' way of thanking him for his time. I don't have a problem with that, but you have to question a guy who claims he cannot do it anymore but then signs a contract to keep doing it.

[DMC]

He chose to play for Argentina last year, got injured, and healed on company time. That's as selfish as it gets. An injury-prone, 35 year old shouldn't even be playing off-season basketball...especially when his NBA team is paying him $14 million.

I can see contracts in the future stipulating that no extracurricular basketball can happen, as the contract is a year long contract. That could be an issue in certain years, but I can see it keeping guys away from these silly national pissing contests where one 3rd world country wants bragging rights over the other and your high priced talent gets injured.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

DMC, just wondering.

How far exactly do you think the Spurs would have went without Manu this post season?

That answer alone ends this thread.

[ElNono]

You're not making any allowance for ticket sales considerations for Pop and RC. I'm also not saying the Spurs shouldn't have resigned him. I even said I'd still take him over some of the younger talent, however from the standpoint of Manu, who's said many times that it's not the game as much as rehab from injuries that's pushed him into the retirement line, how much is his heart going to be in it? His primary strength is his will to win. He still gets pissed at his mistakes, but that doesn't seem to change his decision making on the floor.

I think the ticket sales aspect is automatic, just like it is for Kobe, but I don't see Pop giving him back his leading role if he feels he can't do it (unlike Mike who *has to* play Kobe), so I think the general feeling from the FO is that they're going to give him the benefit of the doubt about last season, be more proactive anchoring his physical work (sending a trainer with him to ARG over the summer, minute management, etc) and then see what happens. If injuries/rehab piss him off that much, then you know his heart is in it. I don't think his 'decision making' needs to change at all. A lot of the stuff the Spurs run is heavily choreographed and I would say he and the team are extremely successful running that stuff, but he gives you the unexpected sometimes, which the team needs. Sometimes it works and sometimes it's a disaster, but that always been the case with Manu. You just hope the positive surpasses the negative.


He's not good enough from the 3pt line to be a spot up shooter. He's not good enough anymore at handling the ball to be in the PG role, and his decisions when it comes to making impromptu plays (Manu did it better than anyone in his prime) hasn't been tweaked to allow for his drop off in ability and the league's adaptation of the European style (so he can be more easily defended as people now expect those things from him).

Maybe he doesn't have anything else to give and this is the Spurs' way of thanking him for his time. I don't have a problem with that, but you have to question a guy who claims he cannot do it anymore but then signs a contract to keep doing it.

I disagree about that. I think he's a great playmaker, passer and one of the few Spurs that still command attention, and the Spurs are a team that need that. The only thing he said he didn't know if he could keep on doing is going through constant rehab cycles. I think injuries are what really mess up with his head, and I could see him hanging them up if he has a bunch of small, but nagging injuries. His confidence in running the team was never in question, IIRC.

[ElNono]

I can see contracts in the future stipulating that no extracurricular basketball can happen, as the contract is a year long contract. That could be an issue in certain years, but I can see it keeping guys away from these silly national pissing contests where one 3rd world country wants bragging rights over the other and your high priced talent gets injured.

Not currently allowed by the CBA, due to an agreement between the NBA and FIBA. Teams cannot even suggest to players they should not play.

[dallasmaverickslose]

lol this thread

[dallasmaverickslose]

fck manu and his legion of wankers upstairs....htf u forgive and forget, lol 2 loyalty contracts....gtfo

my avatar. Bitchass.

[Arnold Toht]

I love Ginobili as much as I love the 2013 Finals.

[DMC]

I think the ticket sales aspect is automatic, just like it is for Kobe, but I don't see Pop giving him back his leading role if he feels he can't do it (unlike Mike who *has to* play Kobe), so I think the general feeling from the FO is that they're going to give him the benefit of the doubt about last season, be more proactive anchoring his physical work (sending a trainer with him to ARG over the summer, minute management, etc) and then see what happens. If injuries/rehab piss him off that much, then you know his heart is in it. I don't think his 'decision making' needs to change at all. A lot of the stuff the Spurs run is heavily choreographed and I would say he and the team are extremely successful running that stuff, but he gives you the unexpected sometimes, which the team needs. Sometimes it works and sometimes it's a disaster, but that always been the case with Manu. You just hope the positive surpasses the negative.

What you're describing is the Manu everyone already knew. That's a given, no need to lay it out again. What we have though isn't that Manu. The question is whether or not Manu truly feels he can help the team, or if he's decided to rest on his laurels and get paid for being a face on the poster. That's the point of the OP. You cannot wait around for years to see if Manu comes back around. To be quite honest, he's been lacking for a few years for one reason or another. Sure he has his brilliant moments and they seem to make it all worth it, but he's also a big reason the Spurs get into trouble, so he plants the device then he diffuses it (sometimes). Does that make him a hero?


I disagree about that. I think he's a great playmaker, passer and one of the few Spurs that still command attention, and the Spurs are a team that need that. The only thing he said he didn't know if he could keep on doing is going through constant rehab cycles. I think injuries are what really mess up with his head, and I could see him hanging them up if he has a bunch of small, but nagging injuries. His confidence in running the team was never in question, IIRC.
It's not a confidence issue. JR Smith has confidence. I'm talking about the ability and willingness to alter your game to remain viable. Perhaps he cannot do that, because his game is a recipe that cannot be altered and still remain viable. Perhaps he just cannot make that recipe work any more. Whatever it is, I sympathize with his mental state following the loss, he blames himself, but he should. That blame has to manifest itself in change of some sort.

[ElNono]

I love Ginobili as much as I love the 2013 Finals.

^ Manu Swept youPERIOD

[DMC]

lol this thread

On cue, homer take

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

On cue, homer take

Notice how this idiot ignores my question. Don't take this guy serious. He knows we need Manu to be relevant, just like we need the other two of the big three. Without Manu in the regular season, we were picked to lose to a Kobe-less Lakers team.

[dallasmaverickslose]

On cue, homer take

lol this thread

[m>s]

DMC, just wondering.

How far exactly do you think the Spurs would have went without Manu this post season?

That answer alone ends this thread.

maybe just as far or winning it all

[DMC]

Notice how this idiot ignores my question. Don't take this guy serious. He knows we need Manu to be relevant, just like we need the other two of the big three. Without Manu in the regular season, we were picked to lose to a Kobe-less Lakers team.

I don't question Manu's contributions. I question his motive. That's the point of the OP. Same with Kobe. Don't try to morph that into me saying Manu should retire. So maybe try reading the fucking OP you dank twat.

[ElNono]

What you're describing is the Manu everyone already knew. That's a given, no need to lay it out again. What we have though isn't that Manu. The question is whether or not Manu truly feels he can help the team, or if he's decided to rest on his laurels and get paid for being a face on the poster. That's the point of the OP. You cannot wait around for years to see if Manu comes back around. To be quite honest, he's been lacking for a few years for one reason or another. Sure he has his brilliant moments and they seem to make it all worth it, but he's also a big reason the Spurs get into trouble, so he plants the device then he diffuses it (sometimes). Does that make him a hero?

I don't think he's changed or will change (EDIT: this is addressing the 'Manu feels he can help the team'), and I think the Spurs are perfectly fine with that. He had a down year last season, but I didn't think he was bad at all the year prior, especially adjusting to reduced minutes. He was one of the top performers in that WCF against the Thunder, and the Spurs really didn't need much from him during the other series. The season before that he was an All Star.

There's obviously some decline, which translate into not having such a consistent high impact on most games, and there's also some minute crunch which means he won't put up as many numbers as previous seasons, but he's also an integral part of allowing other players to play at all, like Splitter or even Neal in the past. I think the Spurs value that and find it's not that easy to replace.


It's not a confidence issue. JR Smith has confidence. I'm talking about the ability and willingness to alter your game to remain viable. Perhaps he cannot do that, because his game is a recipe that cannot be altered and still remain viable. Perhaps he just cannot make that recipe work any more. Whatever it is, I sympathize with his mental state following the loss, he blames himself, but he should. That blame has to manifest itself in change of some sort.

I think his role and game has changed progressively over the last couple of seasons. He's much more of a setup guy now, when he used to be much more of a finisher back in the day. These days he's much more concerned in drawing attention to open up the game for other guys than getting his. Sometimes that doesn't work great for him individually, since now he's more reliant on others making him look good, but I think that role is what the Spurs want from him now, and I think it's viable. There's obviously some people that will disagree with that, and that's fine.

[ElNono]

FWIW, DMC, I think both guys are competitive as fuck, even though ultimately their game might hurt the team, so I don't think either is going to be mailing it in. IMO, then the question is, how much damage each situation does to the team if they end up sucking, and that's why I was addressing the contract situation, on-court unselfishness, etc.