Better Value ?

[Brazil]

So we have:

- Vince Carter, 36 y/o SG/SF coming off the bench for the mavs signed a 3 years contract for $ 9,3 M in 2011
- Manu Gino, 36 y/o SG/SF coming off the bench for the spurs signed a 2 years contract $ for 14,5 M in 2013

Who would you rather have tbh ?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Manu.

[Brazil]

Manu.

why ?

[TrueSpursFan]

why ?
Because its Manu :toast

[Brazil]

Because its Manu :toast

makes sense tbh

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Manu lol

But VC would be a great bench player for our system. I was thinking last night. T-Mac would have too if he found playing time, tbh

[Brazil]

Carter contract is one of the best value of the entire nba out of rookies contracts.

He is giving some very good offense for the mavs off the bench. Carter was also capable to recognize a long time ago that he needed to adapt his game to his TOSB status. He became a very underrated contributor.

I like what he is doing and the way mavs are using him

[bklynspursfan]

why ?

Sorry, this seemed appropriate for this lol...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFU-wXsRhic

But in all honesty, I think Manu. Sure, I might be biased, but I feel like when he's healthy, he can do so much more for this team from scrappy defense, to play-making, and can still open peoples eyes with his passes and finishing around the basket. This is going under the assumption both guy are healthy, I think Manu can do more. If VC isn't scoring/shooting well, what else does he offer at this stage in his career?

[barakz21]

VC doesn't have the intangibles Manu has

[CGD]

I'll play at the risk of feeding a troll thread. I go Manu. Hes probably earning 2m more than we would all like, but what distinguishes him from carter is that he can still still be a big factor in at least one game a playoff series. Even in the finals he gave the spurs the energy and will to win Game 5 when inserted into the starting line up. Carter has never been a playoff performer even in his prime.

We all know the bench piece is misleading since Manu has come off the bench and played big minutes for some time now. But I'd argue that the spurs also got Belli to sign at a discount almost immediately after Manu signed with the Spurs. Belli indicated his desire to play with Manu as a factor for taking half the Cavs were offering. So I see Manu resigning as ~ 10m for each of the next two years for both those guys. That's not bad value if you ask me.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

I wish all these Manu troll posts would just get deleted already. This shit has gotten so old. The guy has been a Spur for a decade and helped win 3 rings. First ballot Hall of Famer. How can you all be such disrespectful assholes? Father time is undefeated. It's life.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

why ?

Better value.

[JRHernandez88]

Manu.


why ?


Because its Manu :toast


makes sense tbh

http://imageshack.us/a/img846/1092/davidsternehhhh.pngmakes sense


truespursfan ftw /thread

[TXstbobcat]

Manu. I still think that Manu can take over a game driving to the basket and lighting it up from behind the arc.

[024]

Manu is still great off the bench... Miami's bench.

[Hoops Czar]

Manu lol

But VC would be a great bench player for our system. I was thinking last night. T-Mac would have too if he found playing time, tbh

Spurs could have had him instead of RJ, but the word on the street is this franchise doesn't make mistakes.

[Brunodf]

3/10

[spurraider21]

Manu Ginobili 7 days a week and twice on Sundays.

he can still run the offense and be the creator for the 2nd unit. that is invaluable. solid opening night from him, 12 points on 6-9 shooting, 4 rebounds, 5 assists to only 1 turnover, 2 steals. and this against what is one of the defenses around.

Carter played well in the opener too, but he's mostly just a scorer. he doesn't run the offense the way Manu is asked to

[ElNono]

VC's contract is perhaps the best value contract in the NBA...

On the other hand, you have Nash making $9m this season...

Manu is somewhere in-between... fair market value, IMO.

[HarlemHeat37]

Vince has been one of the best 2-way role players in the NBA since joining the Mavs, tbh..metrics had him as one of the better defensive wings in the league the past few seasons, as surprising as that is:lol..

Manu's contract doesn't bother me, tbh..he's obviously overpaid now, but as others have repeated all Summer, he was underpaid for a long stretch of his career, he's earned a nice pay day..

[HarlemHeat37]

And the Mavs actually haven't used Carter properly either, just like some have argued for the Spurs and Manu..

They asked him to defend opposing stars when Marion wasn't on the floor, and he was their #2 scoring option outside of Dirk, which is a role he clearly shouldn't assume at this point of his career..adding Ellis should change that, though..

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

why ?

Because Manu is a better playmaker than Carter. Manu can orchestrate and office whereas Carter is a scorer, who due to his age relies more on other's to facilitate his scoring.

Just look at the Mavs last year without Dirk or Calderon an Ellis. Carter was horrible for the most part. I watched some of the Mavs game last night, and about 70% of Carters points came off of feeds from Ellis and Calderon.

That being said, I would rather have Carter than Belinelli.

[AchillesHeel]

VC doesn't have the intangibles Manu has

You're right, Manu just won a title for South Beach, what has Vince won?

[spurs10]

I wish all these Manu troll posts would just get deleted already. This shit has gotten so old. The guy has been a Spur for a decade and helped win 3 rings. First ballot Hall of Famer. How can you all be such disrespectful assholes? Father time is undefeated. It's life. Well said! In answer to your question, I believe many of them are jealous of the guy. They look at him and instead of being thankful for all he's done for the Spurs and the community, all they see is how little they've accomplished. We are very lucky to have a team that isn't just a bunch of mercenaries. :toast

[Kidd K]

Ginobili. Carter is and has always been an overrated player due to his flashy style.

Carter has also never gone to a team and actually made them better. Check out his history, everywhere he goes, the team he goes to does WORSE.

[HarlemHeat37]

Because Manu is a better playmaker than Carter. Manu can orchestrate and office whereas Carter is a scorer, who due to his age relies more on other's to facilitate his scoring.

Just look at the Mavs last year without Dirk or Calderon an Ellis. Carter was horrible for the most part. I watched some of the Mavs game last night, and about 70% of Carters points came off of feeds from Ellis and Calderon.

That being said, I would rather have Carter than Belinelli.

Carter posted a 18 PER last year on solid efficiency in a creator role, less than 50% of his points were assisted:lol..

I'm not sure what games you watched last year, tbh..

[HI-FI]

no doubt the VC contract is a better overall deal considering the past few years. but until VC picks up Rosetta Stone, he won't be able to sell jerseys the way Manu does, so Manu makes more sense from a business perspective.

plus Manu may very well have a great season this year, if he can stay healthy.....God willing.

[PlayNando]

lol tosb

[Biernutz]

I wish all these Manu troll posts would just get deleted already. This shit has gotten so old. The guy has been a Spur for a decade and helped win 3 rings. First ballot Hall of Famer. How can you all be such disrespectful assholes? Father time is undefeated. It's life.


Threads restarted by Manu haters----how many more of these----http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb270/systime/SMILEYS%20%20222/zzdeadhorse.gif

[Johnny RIngo]

I wish all these Manu troll posts would just get deleted already. This shit has gotten so old. The guy has been a Spur for a decade and helped win 3 rings. First ballot Hall of Famer. How can you all be such disrespectful assholes? Father time is undefeated. It's life.

He's only a HOFer because of his international career. His NBA career is extremely unimpressive considering all the frequent injuries and missed time. Pau Gasol, for example, has a more respectable NBA career than Manu.

[barakz21]

[QUOTE=AchillesHeel;6911678]You're right, Manu just won a title for South Beach, what has Vince won?[/QUOT

Uh..Nothing? Oh, and don't forget the 3 titles with the Spurs.

[Johnny RIngo]

Also, I'm shocked at all the hate Carter is getting in this thread. He was a pretty good defender last year and one of the best players for the Mavs. I'd easily take 2013 Carter over 2013 Manu

[Johnny RIngo]

no doubt the VC contract is a better overall deal considering the past few years. but until VC picks up Rosetta Stone, he won't be able to sell jerseys the way Manu does, so Manu makes more sense from a business perspective.

plus Manu may very well have a great season this year, if he can stay healthy.....God willing.

Kobe fans use this same logic to justify his horribly overpaid contract. Sad that Manu's fans are resorting to these same excuses.

[SpursRock20]

If Manu was replaced by Carter, the bench unit would go from the best in the league to middle-of-the-pack instantly.

[xmas1997]

Manu.
No brainier.

[ElNono]

Kobe fans use this same logic to justify his horribly overpaid contract. Sad that Manu's fans are resorting to these same excuses.

How is it an excuse if it's true? :lol

I mean, you can simply disagree it's worth paying extra for that benefit, but that's a different argument altogether...

[spurs10]

He's only a HOFer because of his international career. His NBA career is extremely unimpressive considering all the frequent injuries and missed time. Pau Gasol, for example, has a more respectable NBA career than Manu. " Unimpressive." :rollin Only in the Hall of Fame because of his "international career." Yeah, that NBA career won't be considered when he is inducted. I'm sure him being a key player on the most winning team in any team sport for over a decade is considered by most to be "unimpressive."

[rascal]

VC doesn't have the intangibles Manu has

Manu cost the Spurs number 5. Manu thinks he is a star.

[Baseline]

Take the Finals as as example. He won a game for us (Game 5), because e was vintage Manu. But he (and Pop) lost a game for s (Game 6) because he was trying to be vintage Manu, and it totally wasn't there. But Pop stayed with him, and he shouldn't have. Pop also took Tim out. If Pop would monitor Manu more, and make sure he doesn't beat us himself, I'd be more comfortable. He made 8 turnovers in Game 6. How is that humanly possible? Point is, if a guy is playing that badly, he shouldn't be on the floor. Or if he's on the floor, he shouldn't be given the latitude to even make those turnovers. For example, if Danny Green had 4-5 turnovers, a good coach would tell him the next he puts the ball on the floor, he's getting yanked. In other words, if guys are trying to do too much and they're killing you, then it's on the coach to stop the bleeding. Nice job, Pop.

[DDUBB1770]

Manu because he can create for others even if sometimes its for the Miami Heat during the finals!

[Johnny RIngo]

If Manu was replaced by Carter, the bench unit would go from the best in the league to middle-of-the-pack instantly.

Another dumb comment from someone that doesn't actually watch the games. Dallas had the number 2 bench last year. SA wasn't even a top 5 bench unit. It was common, last year, for our starters to build up a big lead only for the bench to come in and bring the opponents back into the game. Manu was a big reason why the bench unit frequently collapsed. His impact statistics were among the worst of his career.

Manu posted a net +1.8 for his On Court / Off Court numbers last season. Mediocre...especially considering Ginobili used to be a net +9 type player(at the very least...in 2011 Manu had a net +13.3).

Carter, last season, posted a net +11.4 for his On Court / Off Court numbers. MUCH better than Manu. When you also factor in that Carter played 82 games, it's a pretty easy choice. Manu needs minutes restrictions and misses dozens of games every season.

Still can't understand why Ginobili's fans refuse to acknowledge his sharp decline. It's as if they still think it's 2005.

[Johnny RIngo]

How is it an excuse if it's true? :lol

I mean, you can simply disagree it's worth paying extra for that benefit, but that's a different argument altogether...

Unless you have a ownership stake in the team, why the hell should the fans care about the business side of things? Using that logic, we should sign Jeremy Lin after his contract with the Rockets is up. He'll bring us a shit ton of Chinese fans, right?

[ElNono]

Another dumb comment from someone that doesn't actually watch the games. Dallas had the number 2 bench last year. SA wasn't even a top 5 bench unit. It was common, last year, for our starters to build up a big lead only for the bench to come in and bring the opponents back into the game. Manu was a big reason why the bench unit frequently collapsed. His impact statistics were among the worst of his career.

Where are you getting that from?

I see them #5 whether you look at PPG (http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/13/7/pts/7-1) or efficiency (http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/13/7/eff/7-1)...

[ElNono]

Unless you have a ownership stake in the team, why the hell should the fans care about the business side of things? Using that logic, we should sign Jeremy Lin after his contract with the Rockets is up. He'll bring us a shit ton of Chinese fans, right?

:lol that's pretty rich coming from a guy that spent the entire summer bitching about Manu making $14 million... Why should you care what the Spurs paid him if the business side of things are not supposed to matter to you?

Of course the business side matters, it shapes a lot of the decision the team makes. Fans are free to be oblivious to all that, but it shouldn't be surprising that a business makes favorable business decisions. It's not an excuse, it's simply a reality.

[barakz21]

Manu cost the Spurs number 5. Manu thinks he is a star.

Yeah, he did. But he helped with the second, third and fourth. I'm no CoM member, but VC over Manu is just absurd.

[spurraider21]

:lol that's pretty rich coming from a guy that spent the entire summer bitching about Manu making $14 million... Why should you care what the Spurs paid him if the business side of things are not supposed to matter to you?

Of course the business side matters, it shapes a lot of the decision the team makes. Fans are free to be oblivious to all that, but it shouldn't be surprising that a business makes favorable business decisions. It's not an excuse, it's simply a reality.
because in a salary cap league, a player making 7 million can prevent your team from signing other players. i dont think he actually cares that manu is getting money is his bank account, he was upset that manu is taking a chunk of the limited pie

[Brazil]

:lol spurs fans acting like Carter was a poor version of RMJ or Neal

this thread is not even a shot at Manu. Both players have the same age, play off the bench primary at sg and occasionally sf. Found interesting to compare both contract and contribution.

I have no issue with people saying they prefer what Manu bring on the table no need to act like VC is a scrub not playing defense and not capable to create his own shot

[pgardn]

The only thing they have in common is age and both are guards.
Their roles for respective teams are very different.

VC contract is a hell of a deal though. Both teams should be satisfied.

[Johnny RIngo]

Where are you getting that from?

I see them #5 whether you look at PPG (http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/13/7/pts/7-1) or efficiency (http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/13/7/eff/7-1)...

Same site, except I was looking at Deff (Efficiency Difference). SA ranked sixth according to that filter. Regardless, whether you want to call them fifth or sixth, the point remains. Dallas had the better bench unit and Carter was an important part of that(which refutes that guy's point about SA becoming a middle-of-the-pack bench with Carter). The notion that Carter is some kind of cancerous black hole needs to go away.

And spurraider21 basically explained why I have an issue with Manu's contract. He was getting paid star money and giving us role player production. He was only worth about 4 million last season and making 14 million. SA's a small market team trying to stay under the lux tax...every penny counts and Manu's contract amounted to a lot of wasted dollars.

Even at 7 million, Manu is overpaid. His contemporaries(Carter and Ray Allen) are getting 3 million a year and giving their respective teams similar production that Manu is giving the Spurs.

[Johnny RIngo]

I have no issue with people saying they prefer what Manu bring on the table no need to act like VC is a scrub not playing defense and not capable to create his own shot

Agreed. In fact, I'd say VC is a better defender than Manu in recent years.

[Kyuui-Musikq]

Chemistry and trust are intangibles that are invaluable

[SpursRock20]

Another dumb comment from someone that doesn't actually watch the games. Dallas had the number 2 bench last year. SA wasn't even a top 5 bench unit. It was common, last year, for our starters to build up a big lead only for the bench to come in and bring the opponents back into the game. Manu was a big reason why the bench unit frequently collapsed. His impact statistics were among the worst of his career.

Manu posted a net +1.8 for his On Court / Off Court numbers last season. Mediocre...especially considering Ginobili used to be a net +9 type player(at the very least...in 2011 Manu had a net +13.3).

Carter, last season, posted a net +11.4 for his On Court / Off Court numbers. MUCH better than Manu. When you also factor in that Carter played 82 games, it's a pretty easy choice. Manu needs minutes restrictions and misses dozens of games every season.

Still can't understand why Ginobili's fans refuse to acknowledge his sharp decline. It's as if they still think it's 2005.

I watched every single game last year and plan on doing the same this year. Yes, Manu was bad last year, the worst he has ever been. But after watching the preseason and the first game (I know it's a small sample size), he looks better than he did all of last year. Taking him out and switching him with Carter would simply not work. Carter can not create like Manu can and the offense would suffer terribly if he was replaced by Carter. Call me a homer for still believing in Manu, but I remember quite a few people losing faith in Duncan at about the same age that Manu is now. You'll all be back on his band wagon soon.

[SpursRock20]

Same site, except I was looking at Deff (Efficiency Difference). SA ranked sixth according to that filter. Regardless, whether you want to call them fifth or sixth, the point remains. Dallas had the better bench unit and Carter was an important part of that(which refutes that guy's point about SA becoming a middle-of-the-pack bench with Carter). The notion that Carter is some kind of cancerous black hole needs to go away.

And spurraider21 basically explained why I have an issue with Manu's contract. He was getting paid star money and giving us role player production. He was only worth about 4 million last season and making 14 million. SA's a small market team trying to stay under the lux tax...every penny counts and Manu's contract amounted to a lot of wasted dollars.

Even at 7 million, Manu is overpaid. His contemporaries(Carter and Ray Allen) are getting 3 million a year and giving their respective teams similar production that Manu is giving the Spurs.

Where did I call Carter a blackhole? Carter is simply a different player than Manu and would not fit in as seamlessly as Ginobili does on the offensive end.

[ElNono]

Same site, except I was looking at Deff (Efficiency Difference). SA ranked sixth according to that filter. Regardless, whether you want to call them fifth or sixth, the point remains. Dallas had the better bench unit and Carter was an important part of that(which refutes that guy's point about SA becoming a middle-of-the-pack bench with Carter). The notion that Carter is some kind of cancerous black hole needs to go away.

That's why I was asking, not sure if we were looking at the same thing. Top 5 bench in the NBA is pretty damn good. I don't particularly agree that Carter is a bad player or anything like that, that's why I said he's great value for Dallas. At the same time, I'm not sold he would be as good a fit for us. The Spurs use Manu as a semi-PG... Carter is a different type of player.


And spurraider21 basically explained why I have an issue with Manu's contract. He was getting paid star money and giving us role player production. He was only worth about 4 million last season and making 14 million. SA's a small market team trying to stay under the lux tax...every penny counts and Manu's contract amounted to a lot of wasted dollars.

I understand what you're saying, but that undermines your previous point that the fan shouldn't concern itself with business decisions. You can argue that Manu might not be worth a $7m salary only going by what he gives you on the court (a point that's entirely an opinion, tbh, since there's simply no measurable standard for that), or that such a salary is not worth it looking at cap implications, but from the Spurs side, hiring another guy for $3m that doesn't put people on the seats really isn't a better deal.


Even at 7 million, Manu is overpaid. His contemporaries(Carter and Ray Allen) are getting 3 million a year and giving their respective teams similar production that Manu is giving the Spurs.

Carter is a great deal. Ray Allen is 38 and he's getting $3m because that's all Miami can really pay him, and he rather chase a ring. He could probably get more money somewhere else. As I said earlier, look at Nash... he'll be 40 soon, he's cashing in on $9m this season.

[DPG21920]

Nash was a league MVP fwiw.

[ElNono]

Nash was a league MVP fwiw.

Sure. He also never helped a team to a title... but it's not like the Lakers gave him a 'thank you' contract...