Pau Gasol tracker without Kobe

[Andy]

Pau's playoff record (0-16) and 1st round exit via sweep always losing by double digits sans Kobe are things we know.

Lakers win-loss record since the achilles is 12-13. Win-loss record this season is 10-9.

Gasol's stats since the start of the 2013-2014 season without Kobe:

14.4 FGA 14.5 PPG 41.8 FG% 9.8 REB 3.1 AST 2.2 TO

[ElNono]

There's only 2 players averaging more double-doubles than him this season... Chris Paul and stat-padder Kevin Love...

Basically, he's the sole reason your team is 2-3, instead of 0-5.

MVPau is making a solid case for All Star consideration, and it's not surprising he's playing better than last season now that Cancer is out, tbh...

[Deuce Bigalow]

:wow MVPau

[Deuce Bigalow]

There's only 2 players averaging more double-doubles than him this season... Chris Paul and stat-padder Kevin Love...

Basically, he's the sole reason your team is 2-3, instead of 0-5.

MVPau is making a solid case for All Star consideration, and it's not surprising he's playing better than last season now that Cancer is out, tbh...
Allstar consideration? Lololol

[ElNono]

Duncan started slow, and outside of Unibrow, there just isn't a lot of power forwards in the West putting those kind of numbers... tbh, Pau could easily put even better numbers if he had a coach that doesn't preach taking 3s every other possession...

Dwight has the Center spot on lock, Kevin Love should be injured by then...

[ElNono]

Fans will probably vote Griffin though... det :monkey balling is all the rage these days...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Duncan started slow, and outside of Unibrow, there just isn't a lot of power forwards in the West putting those kind of numbers... tbh, Pau could easily put even better numbers if he had a coach that doesn't preach taking 3s every other possession...

Dwight has the Center spot on lock, Kevin Love should be injured by then...
Pau got the ball isolated nearly every time the last couple minutes vs the hawks and I remember him missing everyone one of those shots. Lol at blaming Dantoni. Pau's getting his touches.

[AchillesHeel]

Yeah, the old version of Pau isn't going to be averaging 20 and 10, not with this kind of supporting cast. He's asked to be the defensive anchor(lol) while also putting up a lot of points and assists on offense(the shooters are missing wide open 3s = bad spacing as they sag off the shooters)

[LkrFan]

There's only 2 players averaging more double-doubles than him this season... Chris Paul and stat-padder Kevin Love...

Basically, he's the sole reason your team is 2-3, instead of 0-5.

MVPau is making a solid case for All Star consideration, and it's not surprising he's playing better than last season now that Cancer is out, tbh...

-10 points son. How many all star bigs shoot 40.9% and have an infamous PER of 17.41? ElNono tr:lollling

[AchillesHeel]

-10 points son. How many all star bigs shoot 40.9% and have an infamous PER of 17.41? ElNono tr:lollling
http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/banderas.png

[Rogue]

Dude has to be counted on as the main man on both ends of the floor because the lakers have no legit PF to help him on either end, and they can't play Kaman and Pau on the court at once without their combined slowness killing the team imho. Pau has too much fat around his belly to play PF anymore, which was why _'antoni would rather bench him last season than start him alongside DH in the paint imho.

[ambchang]

Big man needs shooters to open up the lane.

The Lakers have none.

[Koolaid_Man]

Big man needs shooters to open up the lane.

The Lakers have none.

Kobe 5

Gay Cuck......Tired ole Shit Bag 4

[DMC]

Kobe quit period.

[Bynumite]

Basically, he's the sole reason your team is 2-3, instead of 0-5.

:lmao

Bench scored 76 points vs flop city and Gasol shot 5-18 vs Atlanta. He's far from being the "sole reason" the lakers have 2 wins this season.

He's getting the touches spurfan claims Kobe steals from him, yet he's still putting up subpar numbers. 40.9% from the floor, really? This is trash % for a guard, let alone a 7 footer.

The fact is without Kobe attracting double teams and spoon-feeding Gasol with open looks, Gasol underperforms. Spurfan likes to say Kobe only plays one side of the floor but it's Gasol who's underperforming on both ends tbh.

[Thebesteva]

There's only 2 players averaging more double-doubles than him this season... Chris Paul and stat-padder Kevin Love...

Basically, he's the sole reason your team is 2-3, instead of 0-5.

MVPau is making a solid case for All Star consideration, and it's not surprising he's playing better than last season now that Cancer is out, tbh...

How many rings did Duncan win without Parker, Ginobli, or Robinson again?

[baseline bum]

:lmao

Bench scored 76 points vs flop city and Gasol shot 5-18 vs Atlanta. He's far from being the "sole reason" the lakers have 2 wins this season.

He's getting the touches spurfan claims Kobe steals from him, yet he's still putting up subpar numbers. 40.9% from the floor, really? This is trash % for a guard, let alone a 7 footer.

The fact is without Kobe attracting double teams and spoon-feeding Gasol with open looks, Gasol underperforms. Spurfan likes to say Kobe only plays one side of the floor but it's Gasol who's underperforming on both ends tbh.

If Kobe can get Finals MVP shooting 40.5%, why can't Pau make the allstar team shooting 40.9% tbh?

[jeebus]

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/banderas.png
This is an abortion to the actual gif. Very disappointing.

[Leetonidas]

Dude is old now, lol at Lakerfan shitting on old Gasol for not putting up 25/15

[AchillesHeel]

This is an abortion to the actual gif. Very disappointing.

mad?

[jeebus]

mad?
Does disappointed equal mad now?

[spurraider21]

How many rings did Duncan win without Parker, Ginobli, or Robinson again?
the versions of Robinson, Parker, and Manu in 03 were probably their respective worst versions

[AchillesHeel]

Does disappointed equal mad now?

http://abload.de/img/qb4bishnmziv.gif

[jeebus]

http://abload.de/img/qb4bishnmziv.gif
Much better tbh.

[ElNono]

Pau got the ball isolated nearly every time the last couple minutes vs the hawks and I remember him missing everyone one of those shots. Lol at blaming Dantoni. Pau's getting his touches.

lol shitting on your own point... you have a dominant big man, who clearly is the best player on the team, and you only go to him for a couple of minutes? That's not on D'Antoni?

I mean, I understand that watching Swaggy P mindlessly dribble the ball and chuck up a shot might be more 'fun' but it's stupid.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yeah, the old version of Pau isn't going to be averaging 20 and 10, not with this kind of supporting cast. He's asked to be the defensive anchor(lol) while also putting up a lot of points and assists on offense(the shooters are missing wide open 3s = bad spacing as they sag off the shooters)
A poor supporting cast means he should be having even bigger numbers.

[AchillesHeel]

A poor supporting cast means he should be having even bigger numbers.

Doesn't work like that with a big like Pau. He's no Tim Duncan.

[ambchang]

How many rings did Duncan win without Parker, Ginobli, or Robinson again?

There has been two players in NBA history who has won more than on championship with the same franchise with totally different teammates.

One is Bill Russell, guess who the other is.

Oh and :lol at listing THREE players as a group. Duncan won one championship with Parker and Manu, and two championships without Robinson.

Next question from Kobestans. How many rings did Duncan win without Popovich, Horry, Jaren Jackson, and Steve Kerr?

[Thebesteva]

There has been two players in NBA history who has won more than on championship with the same franchise with totally different teammates.

One is Bill Russell, guess who the other is.

Oh and :lol at listing THREE players as a group. Duncan won one championship with Parker and Manu, and two championships without Robinson.

Next question from Kobestans. How many rings did Duncan win without Popovich, Horry, Jaren Jackson, and Steve Kerr?

You're trying too hard to raise doubt in Kobe's legacy. It's not that hard to raise doubt. While I think Tim is the GOAT PF, lets ask some questions to raise doubt with him. He never had a single season without arguably the top 3 GOAT coaches in Greg Popovich, and a core of phenomenal talent.

It would have been great to see Tim go a season or 3 without Popovich and Ginobli-Parker duo and see how he faired. Spurs have been a spoiled franchise in a lot of ways. Once Popovich decides to move on, and hopefully he wont come back as a GM or anything, and when Duncan retires along with Parker, its obvious Spurs will fade into oblivion like the Raptors organization.

[Rogue]

No feast will last forever imho. There'll finally come a time when the Spurs have to start rebuilding with all their legends retired or gone, and it'll be a hard time for this franchise as well as to the fans. But I believe that a great franchise will never go all out tanking like those scrub teams do, they may tank one season (like the 96-97 spurs, or the 07-08 celtics) but they'd never do it multiple years in a row. A great team will rebuild gracefully and come back instantly like the mavs this year.

[ambchang]

You're trying too hard to raise doubt in Kobe's legacy. It's not that hard to raise doubt. While I think Tim is the GOAT PF, lets ask some questions to raise doubt with him. He never had a single season without arguably the top 3 GOAT coaches in Greg Popovich, and a core of phenomenal talent.

It would have been great to see Tim go a season or 3 without Popovich and Ginobli-Parker duo and see how he faired. Spurs have been a spoiled franchise in a lot of ways. Once Popovich decides to move on, and hopefully he wont come back as a GM or anything, and when Duncan retires along with Parker, its obvious Spurs will fade into oblivion like the Raptors organization.

What have I done in my post to raise doubt on Kobe's legacy? Sensitive much?

To summarize, you raised doubt on Duncan's legacy by saying Duncan couldn't win a championship with 3 different players, which essentially makes no sense.

Duncan didn't play with a Ginobili-Parker duo in 1999, and had a marginally good backcourt, yet still won the championship. And as any basketball fan knows, a big man benefits greatly from having a good backcourt to open up the paint for them. While Jaren Jackson, Mario Elie and Sean Elliott were great shooters, they were by no means superstar level players (sort of like what Hakeem had in 94).

Now you are raising doubt over the fact that Duncan only won with Pop, while again, ignoring the fact that Duncan won with 3 (or even 4) absolutely different systems.

1999 - All interior defense, limited perimeter game, almost no perimeter penetration. This is pretty much an all defense team with minimal offensive punch.
2003 - Again, strong interior defense, unpredictable perimeter play (young Ginobili, Parker and SJax). Duncan was asked to carry the offense during critical stretches, namely 4down.
2005 - Heavier perimeter offense, more diverse play with the offensive load shared evenly between Duncan and Ginobili/Parker (mostly Ginobili). Interior defense anchored by Duncan after the retirement of Robinson, with strong perimeter defense with Bowen. Offense is still very much 4down, with more inside out offense.
2007 - Shifting more of the offense to the perimeter, with Duncan handling all of the interior defense. Penetration with Parker was emphasized due to his improvement, mixed with some emphasis of Ginobili's play making. Duncan is now used more as a decoy to open up the perimeter, and sometimes using Duncan's outside shooting to open up the lane.

Popovich is a genius coach because of his ability to understand the team's strengths and exploit them. Not surprisingly, Duncan was the constant.

There really hasn't been too many players who can be the focal point of such diverse championship winning teams.

[Bynumite]

MVPau with the 1-10 shooting night ending the game with a cool 2 points :lol

Inb4 Elnono posts how Gasol was the "sole reason" the Lakers won in Houston :lmao

[Arnold Toht]

MVPau with the 1-10 shooting night ending the game with a cool 2 points :lol

Inb4 Elnono posts how Gasol was the "sole reason" the Lakers won in Houston :lmao

Wins are credited to Gasol, losses are credited to Kobe.

Only Spurstalk.com.

[Deuce Bigalow]

MVPau with the 1-10 shooting night ending the game with a cool 2 points :lol

Inb4 Elnono posts how Gasol was the "sole reason" the Lakers won in Houston :lmao
http://i.minus.com/iKcrNoxlJysEE.gif

[spurraider21]

http://i.minus.com/iKcrNoxlJysEE.gif
:lmao holy shit

[lefty]

lol kirby


Gasol is the ALPHA MALE !!!!!!

[lefty]

MVPau with the 1-10 shooting night ending the game with a cool 2 points :lol

Inb4 Elnono posts how Gasol was the "sole reason" the Lakers won in Houston :lmao


http://i.minus.com/iKcrNoxlJysEE.gif
:lmao ElNono

[Bynumite]

:lmao ElNono (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8054)

Have no idea how to mention someone tbh.

[spurraider21]

Have no idea how to mention someone tbh.
@ Bynumite

without the space = Bynumite

[Bynumite]

@ Bynumite

without the space = Bynumite (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=31924)

:toast

[ElNono]

MVPau didn't have a good shooting night, tbh... but he was the main anchor inside... team leading 12 rebounds against Dwight Howard (:wow), while holding Dwight to only 14 boards...

Blake Mamba gets the credit for the win, but Pau did the little things, tbh

[ElNono]

Wins are credited to Gasol, losses are credited to Kobe.

Nobody mentioned the Kobester... stop playing the victim card, Swept

[Bynumite]

MVPau didn't have a good shooting night, tbh... but he was the main anchor inside... team leading 12 rebounds against Dwight Howard (:wow), while holding Dwight to only 14 boards...

Where is that line of thought when a 6'6 shooting guard grabs 15 rebounds in a Finals game 7 against significantly taller players?

[ElNono]

Where is that line of thought when a 6'6 shooting guard grabs 15 rebounds in a Finals game 7 against significantly taller players?

well, this wasn't the Finals... if Pau pulls a 1-10 in the Finals, then yeah, that'd be fucking terrible.

[LkrFan]

:rollin :lmao :rollin

[Andy]

Updated OP.

[DMC]

:lmao

Bench scored 76 points vs flop city and Gasol shot 5-18 vs Atlanta. He's far from being the "sole reason" the lakers have 2 wins this season.

He's getting the touches spurfan claims Kobe steals from him, yet he's still putting up subpar numbers. 40.9% from the floor, really? This is trash % for a guard, let alone a 7 footer.

The fact is without Kobe attracting double teams and spoon-feeding Gasol with open looks, Gasol underperforms. Spurfan likes to say Kobe only plays one side of the floor but it's Gasol who's underperforming on both ends tbh.

Kobe at Finals 2010



17
17
2010-06-03 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006030LAL.html)
31-284
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)

BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
W (+13)
1
38:45
10
22
.455
1
2
.500
9
10
.900
1
6
7
6
1
1
4
4
30
21.0
+8


18
18
2010-06-06 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006060LAL.html)
31-287
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)

BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
L (-9)
1
34:18
8
20
.400
2
7
.286
3
3
1.000
0
5
5
6
4
0
5
5
21
12.9
-9


19
19
2010-06-08 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006080BOS.html)
31-289
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)
@
BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
W (+7)
1
43:52
10
29
.345
1
7
.143
8
8
1.000
2
5
7
4
2
3
1
2
29
20.7
+10


20
20
2010-06-10 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006100BOS.html)
31-291
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)
@
BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
L (-7)
1
43:04
10
22
.455
6
11
.545
7
8
.875
0
6
6
2
2
0
7
5
33
17.4
-8


Rk
G
Date
Age
Tm

Opp

GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS
GmSc
+/-


21
21
2010-06-13 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006130BOS.html)
31-294
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)
@
BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
L (-6)
1
43:53
13
27
.481
4
10
.400
8
9
.889
2
3
5
4
1
1
4
5
38
24.7
-6


22
22
2010-06-15 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006150LAL.html)
31-296
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)

BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
W (+22)
1
39:37
9
19
.474
1
4
.250
7
7
1.000
3
8
11
3
4
0
2
2
26
24.1
+15


23
23
2010-06-17 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006170LAL.html)
31-298
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)

BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
W (+4)
1
44:51
6
24
.250
0
6
.000
11
15
.733
4
11
15
2
1
0
4
4
23
9.9
0




= MVP

[ambchang]

What's wrong with the 1-10 and Lakers win?

It's not like the Lakers win a lot with Kobe scoring a lot of points or shoots a lot.

Last year, in the 78 games where Kobe played in, the breakdown of the Lakers record by the points Kobe scored is as follows:

0-4 points - 2-0 (100%)
5-9 points - 0-0 (N/A)
10-14 points - 4-0 (100%)
15-19 points - 7-2 (78%)
20-24 points - 8-5 (62%)
25-30 points - 4-11 (27%)
30-34 points - 12-8 (60%)
35-39 points - 1-6 (14%) :lol
40-44 points - 3-4 (43%)
45-49 points - 1-0 (100%)

He scores in the high 20s on average, using 27 points as a cut off (he averaged 27.3 ppg), The Lakers were 24-11 when Kobe scored 0 to 27 points (69% winning %) vs. 18-25 when Kobe scored 28 or more points (42% winning %). In other words, the Lakers are about the level of a Nuggets or a Clippers when Kobe plays below average, and at the level of the Blazers when Kobe plays his average.

Now look at the number of FGA and the relationship with the Lakers record:
0-4 FGA - 1-0 (100%)
5-9 FGA - 1-0 (100%)
10-14 FGA - 8-2 (80%)
15-19 FGA - 14-9 (61%)
20-24 FGA - 14-14 (50%)
25-29 FGA - 3-8 (27%)
30-34 FGA - 0-3 (0%) :lol
35-40 FGA - 0-0 (N/A)
41-45 FGA - 1-0 (100%)

In other words, the less shots Kobe took, the better the Lakers were. Using his 19.2 FGA as the cut off, the Lakers were 13-2 (87%) when Kobe shot 19 or less shots, and 29-34 (46%) when he shot more than 19 shots. The difference is between a 1996 Bulls team and last year's Blazers.

True leader :lol.

[Killakobe81]

MVpau ... smh.

some niccas will go down with the Titanic ...rather than admit they were wrong about a theory.

[ambchang]

MVPau certainly hasn't been playing like MVPau the last few years, and it really isn't a surprise. The system is no longer built around him, and age and injuries have caught up.

An MVPau level of WS/48 of around 0.22 to 0.23 allowed the Lakers to make the finals three consecutive year and the 2nd round one year. You pull in a coach like MDT and a system that cannot maximize his talents, and you get one of the most disappointing seasons in NBA history and a first round sweep.

It's like playing Jordan at PF and then blaming him for the Bulls sucking.

[Deuce Bigalow]

What's wrong with the 1-10 and Lakers win?

It's not like the Lakers win a lot with Kobe scoring a lot of points or shoots a lot.

Last year, in the 78 games where Kobe played in, the breakdown of the Lakers record by the points Kobe scored is as follows:

0-4 points - 2-0 (100%)
5-9 points - 0-0 (N/A)
10-14 points - 4-0 (100%)
15-19 points - 7-2 (78%)
20-24 points - 8-5 (62%)
25-30 points - 4-11 (27%)
30-34 points - 12-8 (60%)
35-39 points - 1-6 (14%) :lol
40-44 points - 3-4 (43%)
45-49 points - 1-0 (100%)

He scores in the high 20s on average, using 27 points as a cut off (he averaged 27.3 ppg), The Lakers were 24-11 when Kobe scored 0 to 27 points (69% winning %) vs. 18-25 when Kobe scored 28 or more points (42% winning %). In other words, the Lakers are about the level of a Nuggets or a Clippers when Kobe plays below average, and at the level of the Blazers when Kobe plays his average.

Now look at the number of FGA and the relationship with the Lakers record:
0-4 FGA - 1-0 (100%)
5-9 FGA - 1-0 (100%)
10-14 FGA - 8-2 (80%)
15-19 FGA - 14-9 (61%)
20-24 FGA - 14-14 (50%)
25-29 FGA - 3-8 (27%)
30-34 FGA - 0-3 (0%) :lol
35-40 FGA - 0-0 (N/A)
41-45 FGA - 1-0 (100%)

In other words, the less shots Kobe took, the better the Lakers were. Using his 19.2 FGA as the cut off, the Lakers were 13-2 (87%) when Kobe shot 19 or less shots, and 29-34 (46%) when he shot more than 19 shots. The difference is between a 1996 Bulls team and last year's Blazers.

True leader :lol.
Logic fail :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe at Finals 2010



17
17
2010-06-03 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006030LAL.html)
31-284
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)

BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
W (+13)
1
38:45
10
22
.455
1
2
.500
9
10
.900
1
6
7
6
1
1
4
4
30
21.0
+8


18
18
2010-06-06 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006060LAL.html)
31-287
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)

BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
L (-9)
1
34:18
8
20
.400
2
7
.286
3
3
1.000
0
5
5
6
4
0
5
5
21
12.9
-9


19
19
2010-06-08 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006080BOS.html)
31-289
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)
@
BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
W (+7)
1
43:52
10
29
.345
1
7
.143
8
8
1.000
2
5
7
4
2
3
1
2
29
20.7
+10


20
20
2010-06-10 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006100BOS.html)
31-291
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)
@
BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
L (-7)
1
43:04
10
22
.455
6
11
.545
7
8
.875
0
6
6
2
2
0
7
5
33
17.4
-8


Rk
G
Date
Age
Tm

Opp

GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS
GmSc
+/-


21
21
2010-06-13 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006130BOS.html)
31-294
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)
@
BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
L (-6)
1
43:53
13
27
.481
4
10
.400
8
9
.889
2
3
5
4
1
1
4
5
38
24.7
-6


22
22
2010-06-15 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006150LAL.html)
31-296
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)

BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
W (+22)
1
39:37
9
19
.474
1
4
.250
7
7
1.000
3
8
11
3
4
0
2
2
26
24.1
+15


23
23
2010-06-17 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006170LAL.html)
31-298
LAL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html)

BOS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2010.html)
W (+4)
1
44:51
6
24
.250
0
6
.000
11
15
.733
4
11
15
2
1
0
4
4
23
9.9
0




= MVP
28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.1 spg, 52.8% TS is pretty MVP worthy as a first option against an elite defense.

[Killakobe81]

MVPau ... is like Bigfoot, the Loch ness monster, chupacabra, the Easter Bunny, the Boogie Man, Tooth Fairy and Santa claus. It only exists in the hearts and minds of the naive or weak minded.

[Killakobe81]

A very good, elite highly skilled big man. Without the mindset to be a MVP of a team that can amount to much ..as a sidekick he was all-world. dude has been mostly trash for over 3 years ...and cant blame it all on Brown. Mike d or Kobe. Because Phil was disgusted his last season with him as well ...

[ShowtimeFan]

A very good, elite highly skilled big man. Without the mindset to be a MVP of a team that can amount to much ..as a sidekick he was all-world.

This is absolutely true. One of the best team players we've ever had and could probably fit in anywhere as a part of making most teams great. Honestly doesn't have the mindset or killer instinct to be the clear #1 leader of a champion team but is incredibly valuable with his all around game. I just hope he rounds back into form this year, he's my favorite current Laker and I hate seeing him under-perform.

[Dex]

http://i.minus.com/iKcrNoxlJysEE.gif

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[ambchang]

28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.1 spg, 52.8% TS is pretty MVP worthy as a first option against an elite defense.

:lol.

MVPau - 18.6 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.7 apg (how can a big man average as many assists as a guard?), 0.7 spg, and 2.6 blks. Oh, and a TS% of 55.6% despite the fact that TS% favours guards.

[ambchang]

A very good, elite highly skilled big man. Without the mindset to be a MVP of a team that can amount to much ..as a sidekick he was all-world. dude has been mostly trash for over 3 years ...and cant blame it all on Brown. Mike d or Kobe. Because Phil was disgusted his last season with him as well ...

Phil was exasperated with Kobe most of their time together too. You point being?

BTW, I agree with you, MVPau has the skills to be the alpha and the mindset of the beta. Kobe has the skillset of the beta and a mindset of an alpha. They are pretty much the perfect pairing.

[ShowtimeFan]

BTW, I agree with you, MVPau has the skills to be the alpha and the mindset of the beta. Kobe has the skillset of the beta and a mindset of an alpha. They are pretty much the perfect pairing.

Nobody respects BS takes like this. Obviously blinded by hatred.

[Bynumite]

Kobe has the skillset of the beta.

Occasionally Kobe will take ill-advised shots but this shit is beyond retarded :lol

[DMC]

28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.1 spg, 52.8% TS is pretty MVP worthy as a first option against an elite defense.

You are the expert at moving goalposts.

[ambchang]

Nobody respects BS takes like this. Obviously blinded by hatred.

I know as a Laker fan you love MVPau, but come on, he does have the mindset of a beta.

[Bynumite]

I know as a Laker fan you love MVPau, but come on, he does have the mindset of a beta.

Do you even know what skill set means, faggot?

[ambchang]

Do you even know what skill set means, faggot?

No, not really. Being that I am not one of the homosexual type, I wouldn't know what a homosexual skill set is.

I am not really interested in it, nor do I share the same passion on the subject that you do.

[Koolaid_Man]

Pau with the 2 point goods last night

[ambchang]

MVPau ... is like Bigfoot, the Loch ness monster, chupacabra, the Easter Bunny, the Boogie Man, Tooth Fairy and Santa claus. It only exists in the hearts and minds of the naive or weak minded.

Don't forget clutch Kobe, belongs in the same group.

[DMC]

MVPau ... is like Bigfoot, the Loch ness monster, chupacabra, the Easter Bunny, the Boogie Man, Tooth Fairy and Santa claus. It only exists in the hearts and minds of the naive or weak minded.

But you made nary a ST appearance prior to Pau. He dragged you here kicking and screaming.

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lol.

MVPau - 18.6 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.7 apg (how can a big man average as many assists as a guard?), 0.7 spg, and 2.6 blks. Oh, and a TS% of 55.6% despite the fact that TS% favours guards.
Those are some good 2nd option numbers.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Very similar to prime Tim Duncan like numbers.

21-14-2 on 47% TS in '05 Finals
18-12-4 on 48% TS in '07 Finals

Edit: nevermind, 2010 Pau was better

[ambchang]

Those are some good 2nd option numbers.


Very similar to prime Tim Duncan like numbers.

21-14-2 on 47% TS in '05 Finals
18-12-4 on 48% TS in '07 Finals

Edit: nevermind, 2010 Pau was better

Duncan is widely ranked higher than Kobe.
Prime Duncan > prime Kobe
Kobe was not in his prime in 2010.
Pau had better numbers than prime Duncan

Therefore, the only conclusion is:
Pau > Kobe in 2010 and was the true leader.

Thanks for finally admitting to this.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Duncan is widely ranked higher than Kobe.
Prime Duncan > prime Kobe
Kobe was not in his prime in 2010.
Pau had better numbers than prime Duncan

Therefore, the only conclusion is:
Pau > Kobe in 2010 and was the true leader.

Thanks for finally admitting to this.
That's why fans voted Kobe the player of the decade, and Duncan wasn't even close.

Or when fans made a top 10, Kobe was ahead of Duncan. Or in the most popular top 10 lists, the media ranked Kobe higher than Duncan.

Kobe's numbers are clearly better than Pau's. LOL @ you ignoring a 10 ppg difference. Kobe's statistical plus minus was higher than Pau's too http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9646

[hater]

Occasionally Kobe will take ill-advised shots but this shit is beyond retarded :lol

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Bynumite]

^A lot of Kobe's shots i mentioned above are bail out shots with a few seconds on the shot clock tbh.

[UZER]

That's why fans voted Kobe the player of the decade, and Duncan wasn't even close.

Or when fans made a top 10, Kobe was ahead of Duncan. Or in the most popular top 10 lists, the media ranked Kobe higher than Duncan.

Kobe's numbers are clearly better than Pau's. LOL @ you ignoring a 10 ppg difference. Kobe's statistical plus minus was higher than Pau's too http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9646

:lol fan voting...thats a good one.

[whitemamba]

http://i.minus.com/iKcrNoxlJysEE.gif
Omfg :lmao

[Bynumite]

This is getting really sad at this point, during the 1st quarter MVPau was like 2-3 but of course he couldn't go off because that would be too much to ask, so he finished the game 3-12 with 9 points.

Not only that but his man, Davis, finished with a game-high 32 points (12-18) :lol Keep up the stellar defense Gasoft :lol

[Pelicans78]

Honestly Pau needs to retire.

[Deuce Bigalow]

What's his stats now?

[Venti Quattro]

This is getting really sad at this point

[Bynumite]

The funny part is when spurfan says Kobe only plays one side of the court and plays no defense. At least Kobe brings the buckets and playmaking, MVPau plays zero sides of the court at this point.

[HarlemHeat37]

Why would Al-Quobe create this thread now, tbh?:lol..

Gasol is well past his athletic prime and it's evident he hasn't given a fuck in 2 years, he was struggling even with Kobe in the lineup ever since Phil Jackson's departure..all he does is shoot lazy jump shots and pass the ball to his shitty teammates now..makes you niggas look salty, tbh..

[DMC]

The funny part is when spurfan says Kobe only plays one side of the court and plays no defense. At least Kobe brings the buckets and playmaking, MVPau plays zero sides of the court at this point.

Yet you had nary a post here pre-Pau.

[Venti Quattro]

I really don't want to bash Pau but he's playing so terribly at the moment. Hope he gets back on track because the Lakers need him so bad while the Lakers buy time with Kobe's road to full recovery.

[ElNono]

Can't even spin this shit since I didn't watch the game :lol

[Bynumite]

Why would Al-Quobe create this thread now, tbh?:lol..

Gasol is well past his athletic prime and it's evident he hasn't given a fuck in 2 years, he was struggling even with Kobe in the lineup ever since Phil Jackson's departure..all he does is shoot lazy jump shots and pass the ball to his shitty teammates now..makes you niggas look salty, tbh..

Gasol is 33, his vagina started itching when he was only 31 and Dirk decided to take a dump on his chest and with Phil still with the Lakers. He doesn't get a pass for being a lazy bum that doesn't give a fuck for 3 seasons.

Ancient 35 year old nigga Kobe just dropped 27 PPG on 46% shooting 6 REB 6 AST last season. So no, lack of athleticism doesn't give Pau a pass tbh.

[LkrFan]

Do it Jim! (http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=q29o2gl)

[Rogue]

El hombre español puede jugar aún, en mi opinión. Él simplemente necesita un equipo mejor.

[AchillesHeel]

What's wrong with the 1-10 and Lakers win?

It's not like the Lakers win a lot with Kobe scoring a lot of points or shoots a lot.

Last year, in the 78 games where Kobe played in, the breakdown of the Lakers record by the points Kobe scored is as follows:

0-4 points - 2-0 (100%)
5-9 points - 0-0 (N/A)
10-14 points - 4-0 (100%)
15-19 points - 7-2 (78%)
20-24 points - 8-5 (62%)
25-30 points - 4-11 (27%)
30-34 points - 12-8 (60%)
35-39 points - 1-6 (14%) :lol
40-44 points - 3-4 (43%)
45-49 points - 1-0 (100%)

He scores in the high 20s on average, using 27 points as a cut off (he averaged 27.3 ppg), The Lakers were 24-11 when Kobe scored 0 to 27 points (69% winning %) vs. 18-25 when Kobe scored 28 or more points (42% winning %). In other words, the Lakers are about the level of a Nuggets or a Clippers when Kobe plays below average, and at the level of the Blazers when Kobe plays his average.

Now look at the number of FGA and the relationship with the Lakers record:
0-4 FGA - 1-0 (100%)
5-9 FGA - 1-0 (100%)
10-14 FGA - 8-2 (80%)
15-19 FGA - 14-9 (61%)
20-24 FGA - 14-14 (50%)
25-29 FGA - 3-8 (27%)
30-34 FGA - 0-3 (0%) :lol
35-40 FGA - 0-0 (N/A)
41-45 FGA - 1-0 (100%)

In other words, the less shots Kobe took, the better the Lakers were. Using his 19.2 FGA as the cut off, the Lakers were 13-2 (87%) when Kobe shot 19 or less shots, and 29-34 (46%) when he shot more than 19 shots. The difference is between a 1996 Bulls team and last year's Blazers.

True leader :lol.

Kinda flawed logic though, Kirby shoots more when others are cold or the game is close and every basket counts. The team also started winning more as Kirby became more of a facilitator in the 2nd half of the season, they finished I think 26-14 for their last 40 games with Kirby playing that role. He averaged over 7 assists per game for the last 2-3 months of the season.

When Lakers finished off 6-0 to close the season, Kirby was averaging 30 points 7 reb 7.5 ast in his last 6 games in April and he was basically playing every minute as well, so him doing more resulted in more wins to be honest.

I think the bigger problem was his turnovers and Dwight's horrible FT shooting, they just weren't a good mix. Shaq back in the day wasn't much better at the line, but he also didn't have to be as he finished his shots when he got fouled and got a bunch of and-1s.
Kirby had a pretty good season, but I think the losses had more to do with his turnovers and his non-existent defense than his scoring.

[ambchang]

That's why fans voted Kobe the player of the decade, and Duncan wasn't even close.

Or when fans made a top 10, Kobe was ahead of Duncan. Or in the most popular top 10 lists, the media ranked Kobe higher than Duncan.

Kobe's numbers are clearly better than Pau's. LOL @ you ignoring a 10 ppg difference. Kobe's statistical plus minus was higher than Pau's too http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9646

:lol are you really citing fan voting? Hmm let me guess, AC Green really was a better PF than Karl Malone in 1990 because the fans voted him in as the all-star starter. It had NOTHING to do with LA being a huge market and Utah not being one. It had NOTHING to do with the media presence and glam of the Lakers.

And looking at ppg again. Ignoring all advanced stats, or even simple things like +/-, because PPG is the be all and end all. Typical Kobestan.

[ambchang]

Kinda flawed logic though, Kirby shoots more when others are cold or the game is close and every basket counts. The team also started winning more as Kirby became more of a facilitator in the 2nd half of the season, they finished I think 26-14 for their last 40 games with Kirby playing that role. He averaged over 7 assists per game for the last 2-3 months of the season.

When Lakers finished off 6-0 to close the season, Kirby was averaging 30 points 7 reb 7.5 ast in his last 6 games in April and he was basically playing every minute as well, so him doing more resulted in more wins to be honest.

I think the bigger problem was his turnovers and Dwight's horrible FT shooting, they just weren't a good mix. Shaq back in the day wasn't much better at the line, but he also didn't have to be as he finished his shots when he got fouled and got a bunch of and-1s.
Kirby had a pretty good season, but I think the losses had more to do with his turnovers and his non-existent defense than his scoring.

It could be both, and given that you have raised the issue, I am actually interested to find out.
In terms of TO:
0: 0-1 (0%)
1: 9-3 (75%)
2: 4-9 (31%)
3: 11-3 (79%)
4: 6-4 (60%)
5: 7-5 (58%)
6: 3-8 (27%)
7: 0-2 (0%)
8: 1-0 (100%)
9: 1-0 (100%)
10: 0-1 (0%)

There seems to be some pattern, but really not that clear.

In terms of assists:
0: 0-3 (0%)
1: 1-2 (33%)
2: 1-3 (25%)
3: 0-9 (0%)
4: 6-2 (75%)
5: 6-5 (55%)
6: 6-2 (75%)
7: 6-3 (67%)
8: 5-1 (83%)
9: 3-3 (50%)
10: 0-1 (0%)
11: 3-2 (60%)
12: 2-0 (100%)
13: 0-0 (N/A)
14: 3-0 (100%)

This seems like a much clearer pattern. When Kobe doesn't ball hog, the team does better, which really works with my previous post of how Kobe shoots less = Lakers better.

Now let's look at the FG% of the team outside of Kobe in W/L when Kobe scores > and < 27 PPG.

In wins that Kobe scores 27 or less points, the rest of the team shoots 50% in W and 48% in losses. Hardly a noticeable difference. In games where Kobe scores more than 27 points, the rest of the team shoots 45% in Ws and 42% in L.

Now the rest of the team's percentage doesn't seem to factor that much in W/L. They are slightly worse in losses, but that is true for pretty much every single team.

To put it in perspective, let's look at the FG% of the rest of the team vs. W/L and how many points Kobe scores in total.

When Kobe scores:
0-4 points: 46% in wins, no losses
10-14 points: 53% in wins, no losses
15-19: 50%/43%
20-24: 49%/51%
25-29: 43%/44%
30-34: 47%/44%
35-39: 41%/38%
40-44: 41%/38%
45-49: 39%/no losses

There is a clear pattern that the more points Kobe scored, the worse the team shot, but there is very little difference in FG% in W/L under each category, unlike the clear indication of how Kobe's points inversely affects W/L. Now does Kobe jack up more shots because the rest of the team was struggling, or was it the other way around, where the rest of the team struggles because they are out of rhythm with Kobe jacking up a lot of shots?

Given how Kobe's history of jacking up shots with no regard for human life regardless of circumstances, I am siding on the later.

[AchillesHeel]

Great analysis, obviously it has more to do with how much Kirby distributes the ball, of course there were games where Kirby was hot and his teammates were cold, so he resorted to shooting more, but their overall poor record, and them losing 19 games out of 39 being up or down 5 with less than 5 minutes to go in the game show that Kirby wasn't that great of a floor leader. Kirby played in all of the 39 games that were decided in the last 5 minutes and he barely won 50% of them, he took 50% of the shots at the end of games in all 39 of them. So he had a big impact on losing those games.

Unfortunately, there isn't a TO% available for those 39 games that were decided in crunch time, I'd be interested to see how many times he turned it over and how many of the team's turnovers were his. He often had games with 5-10 turnovers.

[Sportcamper]

Big man needs shooters to open up the lane. The Lakers have none.
:huh
Steve Blake…Jordan Farmar…Jodie Meeks…Nick Young…

[ambchang]

:huh
Steve Blake…Jordan Farmar…Jodie Meeks…Nick Young…

Blake and Meeks don't shoot enough
Young is a chucker with low %
Farmer's an average shooter so far this year.

When I said shooters, I meant quality ones.

[ambchang]

BTW, MVPau has looked really bad so far in the year, not sure what is wrong with him. Is it old age and he's just done? Is it the fact that he has to get used to getting the ball again? Is it because D'antoni's system doesn't fit him?

We are talking about a guy who led a team to two championships merely 3 years ago. The drop in his productivity is alarming.

[AchillesHeel]

BTW, MVPau has looked really bad so far in the year, not sure what is wrong with him. Is it old age and he's just done? Is it the fact that he has to get used to getting the ball again? Is it because D'antoni's system doesn't fit him?

We are talking about a guy who led a team to two championships merely 3 years ago. The drop in his productivity is alarming.

System doesn't fit him. Pace is too quick, which is why he's struggling, imo.

[Bill_Brasky]

Kobe fans just love shitting on Pau. shame.

[Sportcamper]

BTW, MVPau has looked really bad so far in the year, not sure what is wrong with him.
I think it has to do with playing in the NBA for over a decade & then representing his home country in the off season…The guy is worn out…
Just looking for an occasional TV Gig at this point…

[DMC]

Kobe fans just love shitting on anyone not named Kobe. shame.

fify

But then, if your hero cannot elevate himself to real hero status, you have to help him by lowering the bar and that means bashing his teammates to the point where he looks better than them.

[Killakobe81]

Lets be honest. Pau isnt as bad even now as kobefanbois will tell you ... but he was never as good as those that overrate him here either.
Not only was he the supporting star on back2back title teams just a few years back he helped anchor a high level international team as well.
But he has a coach who has a system not best suited to his skill set. And this is just further proof he is not MEANT to be the focal point of any team with aspirations. He has clutch issues that are well chronicled in international play (ask the Spanish/Argentine fans) and he can be mitigated with physical play ...but he was great #2 and could be a great #3, he just cant be that on a team that sucks as bad as the 2013-14 Lakers do.

he would have plenty of use for the Heat, bulls, spurs contenders with good coaching ...but his skill is wasted on LAL right now.
I dont think he is done, but he "diminished". Never been the same since Phil poked his chest during the "sweep" in 2011 ...

ROFL Mvpau ...

[Deuce Bigalow]

:lol are you really citing fan voting? Hmm let me guess, AC Green really was a better PF than Karl Malone in 1990 because the fans voted him in as the all-star starter. It had NOTHING to do with LA being a huge market and Utah not being one. It had NOTHING to do with the media presence and glam of the Lakers.

And looking at ppg again. Ignoring all advanced stats, or even simple things like +/-, because PPG is the be all and end all. Typical Kobestan.
I didn't ignore advanced stats clown

Kobe had a higher plus/minus per 100 possessions than any player in the series

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9646

[ElNono]

Another double-double last night... 4 blocked shots...

:worthy: MVPau

[spurraider21]

I didn't ignore advanced stats clown

Kobe had a higher plus/minus per 100 possessions than any player in the series

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9646
if it shows up on a yahoo box score, its not an "advanced stat" tbh

[Brazil]

Lakers fans won't ever respect a guy who gave the franchise two rings... ungrateful bastards.

They won't even see that this year MVPau is working for the future of the franchise by helping Lakers to tank properly. He doesn't give a shit anymore at least he is not trying which would fuck up the tanking job.

You should build him a statue fuckers :lol

[ambchang]

I didn't ignore advanced stats clown

Kobe had a higher plus/minus per 100 possessions than any player in the series

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9646

And with that, we know that David Robinson was the real Finals MVP in 2003. :lol series leverage.

2010 vs. Boston.
Kobe had a +/- of +10, including an amazing net zero in Game 7, despite playing that epic 4th quarter FT assisted comeback run :lol
MVPau had a +/- of +12, including a +7 in the deciding game 7.

[whitemamba]

dumb fucks still suckin paus dick, guy is garbage now..

[Brazil]

dumb fucks still suckin paus dick, guy is garbage now..

go kick his ass, he is working for your future

[Brazil]

too bad kobe will come back in record mode chasing to fuck up MVPau tanking job

[ambchang]

too bad kobe will come back in record mode chasing to fuck up MVPau tanking job

Kobe chucking = Lakers losing. It's pretty much the case forever now.

[Brazil]

Kobe chucking = Lakers losing. It's pretty much the case forever now.

yeah but he is still good enough to win some games against scrub teams that would fuck the tank job imho

[Deuce Bigalow]

And with that, we know that David Robinson was the real Finals MVP in 2003. :lol series leverage.

2010 vs. Boston.
Kobe had a +/- of +10, including an amazing net zero in Game 7, despite playing that epic 4th quarter FT assisted comeback run :lol
MVPau had a +/- of +12, including a +7 in the deciding game 7.
Okay dude nothing I post will convince you. You have an excuse for everything :lol
Actually thinks Pau was the MVP of the Lakers :lol

btw how did MVPau do in Game 5, with the series tied 2-2?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Win shares tells us that Clyde Drexler was the Real Playoffs MVP for Houston in '95

-ambchang uses the stat prove Pau>Kobe

good job

[spurraider21]

it's not an excuse. it's a reason.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Just looked up the +/- for the 2010 WCF. Pau had a higher +/- in 4/6 games :lol

Despite Kobe averaging 34/7/8 on 64%TS :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

2010 Finals Game 5

Kobe- 38/5/4 on 48%FG/61%TS
Pau- 12/12/0 on 42%FG/45%TS

Kobe +/- -6
Pau +/- -7

So Kobe was only better than Pau by 1 point +/-? :lol

seems legit :lol

[DMC]

Lakers fans won't ever respect a guy who gave the franchise two rings... ungrateful bastards.

They won't even see that this year MVPau is working for the future of the franchise by helping Lakers to tank properly. He doesn't give a shit anymore at least he is not trying which would fuck up the tanking job.

You should build him a statue fuckers :lol

They shit on Magic and Shaq as well, and didn't give Kareem a statue even though he didn't contract HIV nor kill the owner.

[ambchang]

Okay dude nothing I post will convince you. You have an excuse for everything :lol
Actually thinks Pau was the MVP of the Lakers :lol

btw how did MVPau do in Game 5, with the series tied 2-2?


Win shares tells us that Clyde Drexler was the Real Playoffs MVP for Houston in '95

-ambchang uses the stat prove Pau>Kobe

good job

Of course I have said it time and again that ws in the regular season is the one to look at because it shows how a team was constructed. Ws in playoffs could be skewed by matchups and such.

As for game 5, so? Will the lakers be eliminated if they lost? It's not like its a game 7

[ambchang]

Just looked up the +/- for the 2010 WCF. Pau had a higher +/- in 4/6 games :lol

Despite Kobe averaging 34/7/8 on 64%TS :lol


2010 Finals Game 5

Kobe- 38/5/4 on 48%FG/61%TS
Pau- 12/12/0 on 42%FG/45%TS

Kobe +/- -6
Pau +/- -7

So Kobe was only better than Pau by 1 point +/-? :lol

seems legit :lol

Sort of shows how pointless kobestans points fetish is and proves the point. Doesn't it?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Sort of shows how pointless kobestans points fetish is and proves the point. Doesn't it?
It shows how pointless +/- is

[Arcadian]

:lol Lakers fans who are willing to criticize their star center when it makes Kirby look better

Fucking tools.

[Brazil]

They shit on Magic and Shaq as well, and didn't give Kareem a statue even though he didn't contract HIV nor kill the owner.

:lol to be fair that's mainly Kobe fan boys not really Lakers fans...

[Brazil]

:lol Lakers fans who are willing to criticize their star center when it makes Kirby look better

Fucking tools.

To be fair spurs fans do that all the time with their favorite player of the roster

[ambchang]

It shows how pointless +/- is

So you would rather have a player who scored 35 points but his team score 5 points less m than the opposition than a player who scores 15 points but his team out scores the opponents by 5 points when he's on the floor?

Okay.

[Killakobe81]

+/- is only useful for determining optimal lineup combinations.
They are useless in one off comparisons ...thought a stat guru like you would know this.
Not really more useful than simple scoring numbers.

[Deuce Bigalow]

So you would rather have a player who scored 35 points but his team score 5 points less m than the opposition than a player who scores 15 points but his team out scores the opponents by 5 points when he's on the floor?

Okay.
Because one player can control what his 4 teammates do and what the other 5 opposing players do...

[ambchang]

Because one player can control what his 4 teammates do and what the other 5 opposing players do...

A player can control the 9 players on the court because he scores a lot of points? I am not entirely sure where that logic came from.

[ambchang]

+/- is only useful for determining optimal lineup combinations.
They are useless in one off comparisons ...thought a stat guru like you would know this.
Not really more useful than simple scoring numbers.

An a player who would be useful in more variety of favourable matchups would be a better player to use ... no?

[Killakobe81]

An a player who would be useful in more variety of favourable matchups would be a better player to use ... no?

I get where you are going. And Im not engaging you in any Kobe debates ...have at it with Deuce ... just saying in the context I read it's is pretty useless. You picked a few players to compare ... lineups are better, but still imperfect. if you were to compare interchangeable players say:

Wade Battier chalmers Haslem and Bosh

vs.

Lebron Battier Chalmers Haslem and Bosh

that would work because the lineups are the same (minus the comparison players) both players play "similar" positions and roles on the same team ... the comparisons though not ideal are close.
Comparing Pau and Kobe is so flawed. different positions. different roles and different mindsets. And although they play in similar starting lineups ... Kobe obviously plays in more combinations and Pau would be more effective with the bench that would feature him while Kobe "should" stay relatively flat (production wise) since he will shoot regardless of lineups or matchups.

Anyway I know Kobe bashing is your thing and I guess him being out doesnt matter. Carry on. But I have enjoyed Harlem's (for example) focus on players that are playing and actually matter. But I guess Kobe is more interesting sitting on the side in a custom suit than most NBA players ... I guess. i'd rather discuss Paul George, Lebron or CP3 ...

[ambchang]

Comparing Pau and Kobe is fundamentally flawed in the way you mentioned, but the numbers have consistently shown that Pau was more important to the Lakers than Kobe over the last few years. Does this mean MVPau > Kobe? No, it just means that the Lakers system revolves more around MVPau than it does Kobe.

As for people who are actually playing, there has been lots of discussions and my points have already been covered before I made them, so no point making a repeated point.