Why wasn't Timmy in that last defensive sequence to secure rebound?

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Pop takes out Timmy and plays small ball to apply pressure on perimeter when Spurs clearly need a rebound if Suns miss shot. Doesn't Pop know that securing a rebound off a missed three-point attempt is more important than apply pressure on the three point line when a team is trying to tie game?

[Hoops Czar]

The same place the Spurs defense has been for the season to date, NON-EXISTENT!

[Brunodf]

Pop is just too stubborn

[Splits]

No, Pop has no idea that getting the rebound is important. You should email him at [email protected] or [email protected]. I always get immediate responses.

[ElNono]

I was just reading this is the 2nd game in a 5 games in 7 days stretch. Now that 2nd quarter lineup makes a bit more sense. I think Pop is going to be doing some mad minute management soon.

[Sean Cagney]

Pop is just too stubborn
At times he is an idiot, lets be honest.

[Baseline]

Pop takes out Timmy and plays small ball to apply pressure on perimeter when Spurs clearly need a rebound if Suns miss shot. Doesn't Pop know that securing a rebound off a missed three-point attempt is more important than apply pressure on the three point line when a team is trying to tie game? Pop has his way, which is the only way. And it cost us a title in June. Thank you, Pop.

[will_spurs]

Pop takes out Timmy

Well it worked out well in Game 6, didn't it? Oh wait...

[spurraider21]

I was just reading this is the 2nd game in a 5 games in 7 days stretch. Now that 2nd quarter lineup makes a bit more sense. I think Pop is going to be doing some mad minute management soon.
what was this 2nd quarter lineup tbh? i missed the first half

[chapnis]

I'm pretty sure there were stretches in this game where Diaw was the center and Green was at the 4.

[hater]

it's the 5th game of the regular season geniuses.

relax

[Chinook]

The rebound was not important. It would have only led to a quick two if everyone stuck to their men. The problem with Game Six is that the defenders left their men to try to get the board. Had they played their assignments correctly, Allen would not have even been open. It's the equivalent of a coach telling his players to foul in that same situation, but they mess up and give the other team a four-point play.

[Kidd K]

I shook my head when I saw him get taken out again, solely because of how Game 6 went into OT.

Honestly, when they said Pop had "4 titles" during the Nuggets game, it pissed me off too. I keep thinking of how close we were to winning last year. Still really bothers me.

[Skull-1]

I shook my head when I saw him get taken out again, solely because of how Game 6 went into OT.

Honestly, when they said Pop had "4 titles" during the Nuggets game, it pissed me off too. I keep thinking of how close we were to winning last year. Still really bothers me.

+1

[BillMc]

The rebound was not important. It would have only led to a quick two if everyone stuck to their men. The problem with Game Six is that the defenders left their men to try to get the board. Had they played their assignments correctly, Allen would not have even been open. It's the equivalent of a coach telling his players to foul in that same situation, but they mess up and give the other team a four-point play.

This is exactly right. The problem was Allen's defender left him. No such similar problem against Phoenix.

[Johnsyounger]

OP clearly knows more than Pop. Why is he not the coach?

[anakha]

Yeah, I know, http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-can.gif and all...

But I found the argument (with statistical backup) made by Dan McCarney interesting.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2013/11/07/spurs-continue-to-defend-late-leads-sans-duncan/

[Horse]

If you watch just about every suns run came with Timmy on the bench. I know he had to rest but it seem TD,Parker and Kahwi and resting extra long.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

OP clearly knows more than Pop. Why is he not the coach?

I am a basketball coach. This was meant for sarcasm to Game 6. Any coach would rather set their defense to defend a three point shot that might go in than secure a rebound of a missed three point shot that didn't go in.

[T Park]

I shook my head when I saw him get taken out again, solely because of how Game 6 went into OT.

Honestly, when they said Pop had "4 titles" during the Nuggets game, it pissed me off too. I keep thinking of how close we were to winning last year. Still really bothers me.


Jesus get a life.

[SA210]

Pop pulling HOF Duncan out when Spurs need a rebound? That man has 4 titles. Would never happen............................

[PlayNando]

Pop takes out Timmy and plays small ball to apply pressure on perimeter when Spurs clearly need a rebound if Suns miss shot. Doesn't Pop know that securing a rebound off a missed three-point attempt is more important than apply pressure on the three point line when a team is trying to tie game?
I had flashbacks of 6 when Pop pulled that stunt tbh. :lol

[Kidd K]

Jesus get a life.

A random geek with 53,000 forum posts is telling me to get a life.

The irony is palpable.

[Obstructed_View]

I am a basketball coach. This was meant for sarcasm to Game 6. Any coach would rather set their defense to defend a three point shot that might go in than secure a rebound of a missed three point shot that didn't go in.

Tim Duncan is not just a rebounder. He's also the team's best defender, and he's a shot blocker. Not sure how people fail to figure that out.

[313]

The rebound was not important. It would have only led to a quick two if everyone stuck to their men. The problem with Game Six is that the defenders left their men to try to get the board. Had they played their assignments correctly, Allen would not have even been open. It's the equivalent of a coach telling his players to foul in that same situation, but they mess up and give the other team a four-point play.

This so much.

Who was it that left ray? Danny? I'm surprised no one has realised this and ostracized him to no end.

[Johnsyounger]

I am a basketball coach. This was meant for sarcasm to Game 6. Any coach would rather set their defense to defend a three point shot that might go in than secure a rebound of a missed three point shot that didn't go in.
Ya and I'm the King of Siam. Your not a basketball ball coach in comparison...He does things that you will never understand, so quit trying.

[kobyz]

why do the Spurs let Gerald Green to get that open three at the end to tie the game, instead of fouling him! i don't understand it, this kind of thing can cost you a championship...

[anakha]

why do the Spurs let Gerald Green to get that open three at the end to tie the game, instead of fouling him! i don't understand it, this kind of thing can cost you a championship...

:lmao

Emo parrot obviously didn't watch the game.

Green's shot was rushed and off-balance on that play because he was being hounded for a good 3-4 mseconds before it.

[kobyz]

:lmao

Emo parrot obviously didn't watch the game.

Green's shot was rushed and off-balance on that play because he was being hounded for a good 3-4 mseconds before it.

go fuck yourself, i know you are frustrated that your beloved Bonner is injured right now but please stop be a phony!!!
Green ended up with pretty good open look, very makeble shot!!

[K-State Spur]

The rebound was not important. It would have only led to a quick two if everyone stuck to their men. The problem with Game Six is that the defenders left their men to try to get the board. Had they played their assignments correctly, Allen would not have even been open. It's the equivalent of a coach telling his players to foul in that same situation, but they mess up and give the other team a four-point play.

This. There's also no guarantee that he gets either of those boards. It's not like his DRB% is 100%, & he'd have been further out on the perimeter than normal.

I probably would have left him in because I don't think Bosh could have shook him for an open look, but for all the talk about strategy - Miami got two very fortuitous bounces and took advantage.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

Pop is so fuckin stubborn. IMHO the only reason he took Tim out against Phoenix was to say, "Look my strategy works, we do this all the time." Problem is, this the Phoenix Suns, this isn't the NBA Finals against the Miami Heat. What an asshole, did he not learn his lesson yet??? I can't believe he even did this. I know the Suns game doesn't mean shit, but I feel like this was a middle finger to us all.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol at the notion that Pop is the one being stubborn.

There are statistics associated with the performance of small ball in that scenario. It was shown here and pulling Duncan to protect the 3-point line in that scenario had a tremendous success rate.

The ones that are being stubborn are the ones that are ignoring the 20 or so successes using that strategy and grandstanding on a single failure becasue you are butt hurt about it. How many of you asshurt about him pulling Duncan against Miami were aware that was the strategy we used all season?

Given that logic when Duncan missed that chip shot and putback in a 'clutch' circumstance that should mean we never go back to him. I mean after all it was painful and Lakers fans have been trolling us about it for months. We should NEVER do that again. And his success rate on shots in 'clutch' circumstances is much worse than pulling Duncan to protect the 3 point line something against which he is not even good at.

If you want to switch everything on the perimeter then you cannot have Duncan in there or you are going to be giving up open 3's all day long. There is a FG% against and a defensive rebounding % associated with those lineups. You can determine a 'success' percentage and play the averages.

People need to get over last season and move on.

[Perry Mason]

For anyone who saw the Rockets game last night, this is exactly what happened on the last play with Dwight in the lineup. McHale had them all switching, but after Beverly was stopped by the second screen, Dwight was out of it and not fast enough to switch and catch up to Steve Blake.

[Obstructed_View]

Pop's not stubborn. That's why he embraced the perfectly logical idea of fouling when up by three...

Oh wait.

[anakha]

go fuck yourself, i know you are frustrated that your beloved Bonner is injured right now but please stop be a phony!!!
Green ended up with pretty good open look, very makeble shot!!

LOL obsessed over Tolliver and Bonner
LOL 'good open look, very makeble shot' when Green was leaning forward and to the side and rushing to get the shot off
LOL looking for anything to criticize in that play
LOL still hasn't killed himself

[dg7md]

We were just on the losing end of the game. Relax, guys. It happens. It was devastated about game 6 all throughout the summer but now that the new season is here: move on.

Pats fans are probably still talking about the probability of the helmet catch and the Welker drops in the undefeated season, 49ers fans about the last drive in the Super Bowl in the end zone. All of these things are just a consequence of the realities of sports.

Just move on and appreciate that we're still an elite team. It wasn't our last shot.

[Skull-1]

A random geek with 53,000 forum posts is telling me to get a life.

The irony is palpable.:lmao

[james evans]

he's a guy that's stuck in his ways. he will continue to do shit he KNOWS is wrong just to prove a point that his way will work someday. it's the way he functions in life. he's the type that his parents told him not to touch the hot stove as a kid. he continued to touch that hot stove until one day it didn't burn him as bad as the previous attempts..

[xmas1997]

:lol at the notion that Pop is the one being stubborn.

There are statistics associated with the performance of small ball in that scenario. It was shown here and pulling Duncan to protect the 3-point line in that scenario had a tremendous success rate.

The ones that are being stubborn are the ones that are ignoring the 20 or so successes using that strategy and grandstanding on a single failure becasue you are butt hurt about it. How many of you asshurt about him pulling Duncan against Miami were aware that was the strategy we used all season?

Given that logic when Duncan missed that chip shot and putback in a 'clutch' circumstance that should mean we never go back to him. I mean after all it was painful and Lakers fans have been trolling us about it for months. We should NEVER do that again. And his success rate on shots in 'clutch' circumstances is much worse than pulling Duncan to protect the 3 point line something against which he is not even good at.

If you want to switch everything on the perimeter then you cannot have Duncan in there or you are going to be giving up open 3's all day long. There is a FG% against and a defensive rebounding % associated with those lineups. You can determine a 'success' percentage and play the averages.

People need to get over last season and move on.


This is a post that shows sound basketball knowledge, as well as rationalism.
And it is NOT Pop homerism, dispute what some will try to spin it to.
I commend you!

[james evans]

We were just on the losing end of the game. Relax, guys. It happens. It was devastated about game 6 all throughout the summer but now that the new season is here: move on.

Pats fans are probably still talking about the probability of the helmet catch and the Welker drops in the undefeated season, 49ers fans about the last drive in the Super Bowl in the end zone. All of these things are just a consequence of the realities of sports.

Just move on and appreciate that we're still an elite team. It wasn't our last shot.
for your information, the wes welker superbowl drop was not the undefeated season. it was just a last year. the undefeated season was 2008 superbowl. get that shit right.. and yes it was bellicic fault cuz he went for it on a 4th down when we could have just kicked the field goal early in the game. the giants touchdown would have just tied it..

[dbreiden83080]

Pop's not stubborn. That's why he embraced the perfectly logical idea of fouling when up by three...

Oh wait.

Yes hand them free points as opposed to playing defense.. Great idea..

[Obstructed_View]

Yes hand them free points as opposed to playing defense.. Great idea..

The focus is playing defense, but Tim Duncan is taken out of the game. One of the top defenders in the league. Off the floor. That makes more sense than giving a team a maximum of two points when they need three just to tie.

[eric365]

Spurs are 6-1 with experimentation going on. Not that bad
And the last 3 assistant coaches gone are doing really well considering the rosters they have. Philly 2nd, Atlanta 4th and Orlando 8th even if it's still early

Reading spurstalk, you'd think pop is a bad coach and half the poster knows BB better than him...

When your coach is recognized as the best coach in the league by the media, the 30 GM, the others fans and you still think he is doing stupid things then you need to look again at your BB resume and assume that everything you have thought have already been identified by pop and the assistant coaches

[Man In Black]

:lol at the notion that Pop is the one being stubborn.

There are statistics associated with the performance of small ball in that scenario. It was shown here and pulling Duncan to protect the 3-point line in that scenario had a tremendous success rate.

The ones that are being stubborn are the ones that are ignoring the 20 or so successes using that strategy and grandstanding on a single failure becasue you are butt hurt about it. How many of you asshurt about him pulling Duncan against Miami were aware that was the strategy we used all season?

Given that logic when Duncan missed that chip shot and putback in a 'clutch' circumstance that should mean we never go back to him. I mean after all it was painful and Lakers fans have been trolling us about it for months. We should NEVER do that again. And his success rate on shots in 'clutch' circumstances is much worse than pulling Duncan to protect the 3 point line something against which he is not even good at.

If you want to switch everything on the perimeter then you cannot have Duncan in there or you are going to be giving up open 3's all day long. There is a FG% against and a defensive rebounding % associated with those lineups. You can determine a 'success' percentage and play the averages.

People need to get over last season and move on.

I agree but then the over obsessives( you know who you are) will say that regular season success doesn't translate to playoff pressure. But, I'm curious to see if the haters can throw a legit basketball counter to your argument.

[dbreiden83080]

The focus is playing defense, but Tim Duncan is taken out of the game. One of the top defenders in the league. Off the floor. That makes more sense than giving a team a maximum of two points when they need three just to tie.

I wanted him on the floor as bad as you did but people need to quit acting like Pop cost us the title out of stupidity. He knows more about the game than any of us on the forum put together. He made a tactical choice given the match ups and it did not pan out.. When you roll that footage back KL was inches away from grabbing the rebound that would have likely sealed the championship.. Wade tipped the ball away.. The game is a matter of inches.

[Obstructed_View]

I wanted him on the floor as bad as you did but people need to quit acting like Pop cost us the title out of stupidity. He knows more about the game than any of us on the forum put together. He made a tactical choice given the match ups and it did not pan out. When you roll that footage back KL was inches away from grabbing the rebound that would have likely sealed the championship. Wade tipped the ball away. The game is a matter of inches.

I love that people resort to the "He knows more than all of us about basketball" argument when all the evidence and logic fail them. When a guy who claims to rely on percentages and tendencies, and talks about it at length, then goes and does such incomprehensible shit once the playoffs roll around or in crunch time, you have to say it's stupidity unless it works a large percentage of the time. Knowing a lot about the game doesn't prevent him from running stupid lineups. We've seen him do it so many times since 2006 that I'm unsure how someone can be stubborn enough to deny it. Sidney Lowe and Magic Johnson and Marc Ivaroni know more about basketball than we do, as well. Doesn't make them good NBA coaches.

I don't have the game in front of me, nor do I want to watch it, but I could have sworn Diaw was the one who missed the rebound, and the inches in question are the ones in Timmy's arms and legs.

On an unrelated note, you only need one period at the end of sentences. :) <- smiley face

[james evans]

I love that people resort to the "He knows more than all of us about basketball" argument when all the evidence and logic fail them. When a guy who claims to rely on percentages and tendencies, and talks about it at length, then goes and does such incomprehensible shit once the playoffs roll around or in crunch time, you have to say it's stupidity unless it works a large percentage of the time. Knowing a lot about the game doesn't prevent him from running stupid lineups. We've seen him do it so many times since 2006 that I'm unsure how someone can be stubborn enough to deny it. Sidney Lowe and Magic Johnson and Marc Ivaroni know more about basketball than we do, as well. Doesn't make them good NBA coaches.

I don't have the game in front of me, nor do I want to watch it, but I could have sworn Diaw was the one who missed the rebound, and the inches in question are the ones in Timmy's arms and legs.

On an unrelated note, you only need one period at the end of sentences. :) <- smiley face
yeah, we've seen popovich make mistakes for years. giving up on games in the 4th(i was fukin shocked he didn't quit in game 1 against the warriors. he has a history of "saving his players for the next game") and the mistakes in game 6 is not just with taking duncan out. he had about 4 HUGE mistakes in the 4th quarter alone. taking out the starters at the start of the 4th, taking duncan out twice on defense late in the 4th, not sending in a freethrow shooting unit but putting the pressure on a 61% freethrow shooter, and most importantly, allowing ginobli to stink up the game with his bullshit. i don't give a damn how much he knows, i know he fuked that game up.

[ElNono]

I love that people resort to the "He knows more than all of us about basketball" argument when all the evidence and logic fail them. When a guy who claims to rely on percentages and tendencies, and talks about it at length, then goes and does such incomprehensible shit once the playoffs roll around or in crunch time, you have to say it's stupidity unless it works a large percentage of the time. Knowing a lot about the game doesn't prevent him from running stupid lineups. We've seen him do it so many times since 2006 that I'm unsure how someone can be stubborn enough to deny it. Sidney Lowe and Magic Johnson and Marc Ivaroni know more about basketball than we do, as well. Doesn't make them good NBA coaches.

I don't have the game in front of me, nor do I want to watch it, but I could have sworn Diaw was the one who missed the rebound, and the inches in question are the ones in Timmy's arms and legs.

On an unrelated note, you only need one period at the end of sentences. :) <- smiley face

O_V, it's not a copout to say "He knows more than all of us about basketball", IMO. He's simply not infallible and he's the guy constantly saying "this is a game of mistakes". He fucked up, and this is a situation where it will get magnified 20x because of the stage. No coach is perfect. Even Phil Jackson lost a couple of NBA Finals.

[Obstructed_View]

I hear what youre saying. Someone would challenge your ability to deem him fallible due to his four titles. That's what makes it a cop out.

[dbreiden83080]

I hear what youre saying. Someone would challenge your ability to deem him fallible due to his four titles. That's what makes it a cop out.

My issue is people talk about this like he was almost trying to lose the game.. Obviously that lineup in that situation worked for him in the past or he would not have used it.. Pop did not pull that one out of his ass and just say out of blue

Bench Duncan why not??

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This is a post that shows sound basketball knowledge, as well as rationalism.
And it is NOT Pop homerism, dispute what some will try to spin it to.
I commend you!

For the most part that is not rationalism. I am talking about basing decisions on empirical findings, not deducing anything.

Using 'big words' that you do not understand by your definition is.....

[Obstructed_View]

My issue is people talk about this like he was almost trying to lose the game.. Obviously that lineup in that situation worked for him in the past or he would not have used it.. Pop did not pull that one out of his ass and just say out of blue

Bench Duncan why not??

To an extent I agree with you, insofar as I'm sure he wasn't trying to lose the game, but here's the thing: Pop plays this "Aw shucks I'm just a lucky idiot with good players" routine with the reporters, but based on some of these lineups, you get the idea that he reads the stories where people say what a brilliant coach and tactician he is. Then he feels the need to put his imprint on the game, like putting Richard Jefferson in with five seconds to go guarding Amare in the post when the Spurs are up by 1. Coaching in the NBA is the most unimportant of the major pro sports because historically the team with the best players wins. Getting cute when you have an advantage is stupid. I can't get away from that conclusion.

Looking back from now, Pop has no history of success replacing Duncan with Diaw in crunch time. What he has instead is a history of making questionable lineup and personnel decisions that cost his team. The 2006 Spurs with their centers in the rotation were the best team in the league. The 2006 Spurs after he benched them were barely over .500 and lost a game seven at home. Pop suddenly decided to take a 63 win team and go small with no past success doing it. Sound familiar?

[anakha]

Looking back from now, Pop has no history of success replacing Duncan with Diaw in crunch time. What he has instead is a history of making questionable lineup and personnel decisions that cost his team.

Dunno if this totally answers your question, but I did post an article that suggests that Pop may have statistical basis (and results) for going without Duncan to defend a lead in the final seconds:

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2013/11/07/spurs-continue-to-defend-late-leads-sans-duncan/

[Obstructed_View]

Dunno if this totally answers your question, but I did post an article that suggests that Pop may have statistical basis (and results) for going without Duncan to defend a lead in the final seconds:

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2013/11/07/spurs-continue-to-defend-late-leads-sans-duncan/

I stand corrected on that point. That's a good article.

[anakha]

I stand corrected on that point. That's a good article.

It's all good. I was surprised myself that sitting Duncan to defend a lead was that established a practice already.

[Seventyniner]

I see this as a battle between results-based thinking and decision-based thinking.

Let's say you are playing blackjack and are dealt a beautiful 7-4 from a freshly shuffled shoe with the dealer showing a 5. Doubling down is clearly the correct play.

Now pretend that you have faced that exact situation 12 times before. In the first 11, you were playing $25 a hand and won 9 of them. In the 12th situation, you decided to bet $2000 on the hand. On that hand, you doubled down, pulled a 9 to make 20, and watched in shock as the dealer flipped over a 9 of his own and proceeded to get a 2 and a 5 in that order, making 21 to beat your 20.

Would that turn of events cause you to just hit in that situation from that point forward? Or would you write it off as a fluke?