Pippen or LeBron?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Who would you rather build your team around?

[HarlemHo 37]

Who would you rather build your team around?


If the choices were Lebron or Pippen's dog, I'd have to go with the latter.

[Arcadian]

Scottie Pippen never scored more than 1720 points in a season. Lebron has already done that 8 times in 10 seasons - and the other two were his rookie year and the lockout-shortened year.

The only way you can honestly vote for Pippen is by basing your argument on hypotheticals. What if Pippen was given the chance to be top dog? But the problem is, you simply can't support an argument purely on hypotheticals.

/discussion

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Scottie Pippen never scored more than 1720 points in a season. Lebron has already done that 8 times in 10 seasons - and the other two were his rookie year and the lockout-shortened year.

The only way you can honestly vote for Pippen is by basing your argument on hypotheticals. What if Pippen was given the chance to be top dog? But the problem is, you simply can't support an argument purely on hypotheticals.

/discussion

I think that's a bit unfair considering Pippen played under Jordan, who averaged 30 points a game throughout his career. An out of prime Pippen did average 21, 6 rebounds and 6 assists when Jordan retired. Imagine what an in prime alpha-Pippen could do.

I'm not totally discrediting LeBron, but there's more to Pippen than his scoring total. He was the best wing defender of all time. Check out this video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qd6Aq1FeyA

[Phillip]

Pippen was great and underappreciated, no question. But is there a single thing on the basketball court that Pippen could unquestionably do better than LeBron? Not really. LeBron is fully capable of dominating a game without scoring a bunch of points either.

[AchillesHeel]

Pippen is the better defender, and he's also very athletic and can carry a team to a 55 win record. If I started a franchise, I'd obviously pick Lebron first, but if I already had a guy like MJ or Timmy on my team, I'd choose Pippen as the 2nd banana, tbh. 90-97 Pippen was a fucking beast, people who watched him know that.

[AchillesHeel]

Pippen was great and underappreciated, no question. But is there a single thing on the basketball court that Pippen could unquestionably do better than LeBron? Not really. LeBron is fully capable of dominating a game without scoring a bunch of points either.

Defense? And prime Pippen is easily the better rebounder.

[Phillip]

Defense? And prime Pippen is easily the better rebounder.

When Lebron NEEDS to dial in and focus on defense, he plays as good of defense as anyone, and is as solid of a rebounder for a guy his size that you can find. :lol at "easily the better rebounder" when Lebron has better career average of RPG, a higher TRB%, and noticably higher DRB%, while Pippen had a higher ORB% (which I will address in my next paragraph).

It's a bit easier to spend all of your energy in a game playing defense and rebounding, like Pippen could, when you aren't relied on to be the #1 offensive option, both as a scorer, and for running plays. Pippen could score, but was not relied on offensively in the same way Lebron or MJ is/was. So he could focus on those areas more. If Lebron was put in the same position Pippen was in, there isn't a doubt in my mind that he could be considered the greatest overall defender ever (a title that Pippen currently holds), and a MUCH more dominant rebounder than Pippen. Lebron has equal or greater IQ to Pippen, but is even more athletically gifted.

[AchillesHeel]

When Lebron NEEDS to dial in and focus on defense, he plays as good of defense as anyone, and is as solid of a rebounder for a guy his size that you can find. :lol at "easily the better rebounder" when Lebron has better career average of RPG, a higher TRB%, and noticably higher DRB%, while Pippen had a higher ORB% (which I will address in my next paragraph).

It's a bit easier to spend all of your energy in a game playing defense and rebounding, like Pippen could, when you aren't relied on to be the #1 offensive option, both as a scorer, and for running plays. Pippen could score, but was not relied on offensively in the same way Lebron or MJ is/was. So he could focus on those areas more. If Lebron was put in the same position Pippen was in, there isn't a doubt in my mind that he could be considered the greatest overall defender ever (a title that Pippen currently holds), and a MUCH more dominant rebounder than Pippen. Lebron has equal or greater IQ to Pippen, but is even more athletically gifted.

"Career average", son Pippen played til 39, prime Pippen was putting up 7-9 boards every game along with 5-8 assists and 3 steals, it's a lot closer than you think.

How do you compare their IQs? How much did you actually watch Pippen in the 90s? I damn sure know you couldn't watch most games so if you ever did see any games live you only saw the playoffs. Pippen was a highly gifted player and one of the most athletic ever...His defensive numbers speak for themselves.

Lebron can lock players down when he NEEDS to? Who has he locked down? KD put up 30 ppg on above 50% shooting against him in the Finals, Paul George had a good series(19 ppg on 47,5% FG and 44% from 3) against him in the ECF, Kawhi put up a double-double in the Finals on high efficiency. Lebron has only locked down 6'1-6'3 PGs as far as I know.

[LkrFan]

Answer: 6 out of 6 >>>> 2*** out of 4



*** Denotes 28.2 seconds of chokery :bang

[Phillip]

"Career average", son Pippen played til 39, prime Pippen was putting up 7-9 boards every game along with 5-8 assists and 3 steals, it's a lot closer than you think.

Pippen never averaged 9+ RPG. Only twice did he average 8+ in a season. Lebron already has once, and probably will again.

Pippen only averaged 7 APG once in his career, while Lebron averages over 7 APG almost every season.


How do you compare their IQs? How much did you actually watch Pippen in the 90s? I damn sure know you couldn't watch most games so if you ever did see any games live you only saw the playoffs.

1) I've seen my fair share of Pippen.

2) I don't see any reason to say Pippen was higher than Lebron. I think there are more cases that can be made that Lebron's is higher than Pippen's though, even though it's virtually irrelevant. Point is, both are/were VERY HIGH IQ players.


Pippen was a highly gifted player and one of the most athletic ever...His defensive numbers speak for themselves.

Neat. LeBron is a noticably more gifted player, and probably IS the most athletic player ever. If that has so much bearing on how good his defense is capable of being, then that only feeds further into my point that if LeBron wasn't relied on as much as he is for offense, and was able to spend the majority of his energy focusing on defense, rebounding, and filling roles where needed, he could do everything Pippen did, but almost certainly better.


Lebron can lock players down when he NEEDS to? Who has he locked down? KD put up 30 ppg on above 50% shooting against him in the Finals, Paul George had a good series(19 ppg on 47,5% FG and 44% from 3) against him in the ECF, Kawhi put up a double-double in the Finals on high efficiency. Lebron has only locked down 6'1-6'3 PGs as far as I know.

Even though this is a highly misleading load of crap and you know it, I can play this game too.

Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars consistently kicked the hell out of Chicago for several years. Mark Price has a nice series. Kobe consistently gave Pippen fits. Karl Malone consistently averaged high scoring totals. Kemp had a real nice series. Penny Hardaway had a nice series. For a guy who is supposed to be the greatest and most versatile defender ever, there sure were a lot of different players who scored well and efficiently against his teams... I guess that means Pippen can't lock down anyone consistently. At least by your retarded standards, Lebron was able to lock down some PGs.

Oh wait, I forgot, most everyone I named, and most everyone you named (except for Leonard who wasn't even being guarded by Lebron consistently, and mainly only got junk/transition points and wide open 3s) were star caliber players, all of whom are/were fantastic scorers. Even against elite defenders, star scorers will simply find ways to score. Offensive players ALWAYS have an advantage over any defender. That's a fact, and nothing to hold against upper echelon defenders.

Would it really be fair to say that Tim Duncan is a crap defender simply because in most games and basically every playoff series he played against Dirk, Dirk was able to score at will and efficiently, to the point that the Spurs wouldn't even allow Tim to guard Dirk? Would it be fair to say Kevin Garnett was a crap defender for basically the same reasons? Of course not. Dirk was a fantastic scorer, and it just wouldn't make a lot of sense to have Timmy constantly guarding him, especially to prevent Tim from getting into foul trouble, since the Spurs are so dependent on him. Same for KG and the teams he played for.

Likewise, the same goes for guys like Lebron, MJ, and MANY others. Just because they didn't spend all game long guarding elite scorers, doesn't mean they aren't capable of playing an extremely high level of defense. And just because an elite scorer had a good game or a good series against them, doesn't diminish the fact that they are still elite defenders.

[AchillesHeel]

Pippen never averaged 9+ RPG. Only twice did he average 8+ in a season. Lebron already has once, and probably will again.

Pippen only averaged 7 APG once in his career, while Lebron averages over 7 APG almost every season.



1) I've seen my fair share of Pippen.

2) I don't see any reason to say Pippen was higher than Lebron. I think there are more cases that can be made that Lebron's is higher than Pippen's though, even though it's virtually irrelevant. Point is, both are/were VERY HIGH IQ players.



Neat. LeBron is a noticably more gifted player, and probably IS the most athletic player ever. If that has so much bearing on how good his defense is capable of being, then that only feeds further into my point that if LeBron wasn't relied on as much as he is for offense, and was able to spend the majority of his energy focusing on defense, rebounding, and filling roles where needed, he could do everything Pippen did, but almost certainly better.



Even though this is a highly misleading load of crap and you know it, I can play this game too.

Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars consistently kicked the hell out of Chicago for several years. Mark Price has a nice series. Kobe consistently gave Pippen fits. Karl Malone consistently averaged high scoring totals. Kemp had a real nice series. Penny Hardaway had a nice series. For a guy who is supposed to be the greatest and most versatile defender ever, there sure were a lot of different players who scored well and efficiently against his teams... I guess that means Pippen can't lock down anyone consistently. At least by your retarded standards, Lebron was able to lock down some PGs.

Oh wait, I forgot, most everyone I named, and most everyone you named (except for Leonard who wasn't even being guarded by Lebron consistently, and mainly only got junk/transition points and wide open 3s) were star caliber players, all of whom are/were fantastic scorers. Even against elite defenders, star scorers will simply find ways to score. Offensive players ALWAYS have an advantage over any defender. That's a fact, and nothing to hold against upper echelon defenders.

Would it really be fair to say that Tim Duncan is a crap defender simply because in most games and basically every playoff series he played against Dirk, Dirk was able to score at will and efficiently, to the point that the Spurs wouldn't even allow Tim to guard Dirk? Would it be fair to say Kevin Garnett was a crap defender for basically the same reasons? Of course not. Dirk was a fantastic scorer, and it just wouldn't make a lot of sense to have Timmy constantly guarding him, especially to prevent Tim from getting into foul trouble, since the Spurs are so dependent on him. Same for KG and the teams he played for.

Likewise, the same goes for guys like Lebron, MJ, and MANY others. Just because they didn't spend all game long guarding elite scorers, doesn't mean they aren't capable of playing an extremely high level of defense. And just because an elite scorer had a good game or a good series against them, doesn't diminish the fact that they are still elite defenders.

We both agree that Lebron is the better overall player and he's more gifted athletically. The only issue I have is that you say that Lebron is better or just as good in every facet of the game, which is just not true. Pippen in the 1st three-peat was putting up Lebron numbers for 3 straight Finals, only that instead of 25-28 ppg he was putting up 21 ppg.

I'm not really denying anything you have to say, but Pippen put up comparable numbers with much smaller usage rates. Even during the time MJ wasn't on the Bulls, Pippen had a smaller usage rate than rookie Lebron, I have no doubt that if Pippen hogged the ball more and took 2-3 more shots per game, his stats would be same, albeit with worse efficiency. That's all I have to say really.

Yeah, I'd build around Lebron, but if I needed to pair MJ with another player, I'd rather go with Pippen, as he has a flawless track record as a 2nd banana to MJ. Lebron was a 2nd banana in the Finals in 2011, and he stunk it up, and he almost did the same thing in 2013 up until Game 6 as a 1st option(in which he also turned the ball over twice in the last minute, throwing the game away until Kawhi and Manu missed key free throws and Jesus hit a miracle 3).

[Calispursfan11]

I hate Lebron and watched plenty of Pippen. Pippen was one of the greats of all time but he doesn't compare to Lebron. However Jordan is obviously better than both.

[Rogue]

it's an easy choice imho, like if you're a bitch who would you get married to? An alpha or a beta?

[TDMVPDPOY]

pippen doesnt have the stats like lebron or able to play the 4 and 5 positions cause thats not his job, his reb numbers are nothing excited about; then again reboundin more than the position avg is a luxury not a negative against pippens production...seriously its not his job to go and grab monster rebound numbers if u have 2 competant bigman clowns on ur team.

everyone would take lebron cause he can play multiple positions

but pippen does have a case if u can build around him or have him as a missing piece to a contending team

[AchillesHeel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtc_aFpTs0k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlFeJdRg5Uw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9691gV6oag

solid post game, a nice hook shot, could hit the mid-range shot, that intensity on the defensive end...

[LkrFan]

Pippen was great and underappreciated, no question. But is there a single thing on the basketball court that Pippen could unquestionably do better than LeBron? Not really. LeBron is fully capable of dominating a game without scoring a bunch of points either.
I wouldn't go that far. You act like Pip was some kind of scrub.



Pip was unquestionably the better defender of the two. He regularly locked down the opposition's best perimeter threat - not MJ. Pip was probably the most versatile defender in NBA history.
Pip led the 1994 Bulls to game 7 of the ECF. His starting SGs? JoJo English and Pete Myers. 55-27 was their RS record. The a East wasn't no punk back then either. All of this, while dad killer was masquerading as a baseball player during his Stern-mandated timeout because of his gambling problem.
if he played with MJ, his name would be LeRobin James. No way would he eat first. So why hold it against Pip?

[LkrFan]

For the young punks that never seen Pip play, here you go:

tObgS6uUVjQ

Pip was a motherfucker. MJ didn't win shit without himPERIOD.

[AchillesHeel]

Wasn't it Game 7 ECSF? But Pip was a beast yes. There's no way Lebron could dominate the game without scoring, just look at 2011 Finals.

[Killakobe81]

Pippen is the better defender, and he's also very athletic and can carry a team to a 55 win record. If I started a franchise, I'd obviously pick Lebron first, but if I already had a guy like MJ or Timmy on my team, I'd choose Pippen as the 2nd banana, tbh. 90-97 Pippen was a fucking beast, people who watched him know that.

Heel is right Pippen is the better defender. But I would rather have Lebron's passing (Pippen was excellent at creating too) and even though Pip carried a team to 55 wins ...
He also pouted like a baby when Phil drew up the winning playoff play for Kukoc ... Lebron would of NEVER done that which is both good and bad ... but Lebron seems to be the better leader. And was the best player on 3 straight finals teams. As great as Pip was ... this not really as close as some say tbh.

Lebron is in GOAT conversations Pippen was in HOF conversations (before induction) HUGE difference.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Heel is right Pippen is the better defender. But I would rather have Lebron's passing (Pippen was excellent at creating too) and even though Pip carried a team to 55 wins ...
He also pouted like a baby when Phil drew up the winning playoff play for Kukoc ... Lebron would of NEVER done that which is both good and bad ... but Lebron seems to be the better leader. And was the best player on 3 straight finals teams. As great as Pip was ... this not really as close as some say tbh.

Lebron is in GOAT conversations Pippen was in HOF conversations (before induction) HUGE difference.

I just don't agree that LeBron is the better passer and is sure not the better leader.

Bill Wennington: When there was a problem, if there was something you disagreed about. It wasn't MJ or Phil you went to, it was Pippen.

Buehler: Pippen made everyone on the floor great. He would make defensive schemes that Phil would get mad about and Pippen would come in and say 'Hey Phil, I told him to do that'

Reggie Miller: Pippen would score 5 points and completely dominate the game.

That's why I don't like looking at stats to make these decisions. There's so much more to the game than stats. Even then, Pippen was legit.

Also, I'd like to point out you are wrong about Pippen "being in the HoF discussion". Pippen was voted one of the 50 best players of all time, and recently was named in the best 30 of all time.

Averaging 7 rebounds out of your prime with MJ and Dennis on your team (Dennis averaged about 18 rebounds a game with Chicago) is crazy

[ambchang]

This is a ridiculous question. While I admit Pippen was the better defender, and I would say equal passer/facilitator, Lebron does so many other things better.

Lebron is obviously the better scorer and creator on offense, and slightly better rebounder.

Pippen is one of my favourite players of all time (more so than MJ), but this isn't even a fair comparison. Comparing Pippen to Lebron is like comparing Jason Kidd to Magic Johnson. While both are all time greats, one of them is clearly not as good as the other.

Pippen's career high was 13.1 WS, and 0.209 WS/48. Lebron James' only season with < 13.1 WS was his rookie season, and even eclipsed that number in the lockout season where he played 62 games. Lebron had a WS/48 < 0.209 in only three seasons. He also led the league in WS and WS/48 five times in his career.

In conclusion, no contest.

[Phillip]

We both agree that Lebron is the better overall player and he's more gifted athletically. The only issue I have is that you say that Lebron is better or just as good in every facet of the game, which is just not true. Pippen in the 1st three-peat was putting up Lebron numbers for 3 straight Finals, only that instead of 25-28 ppg he was putting up 21 ppg.

I'm not really denying anything you have to say, but Pippen put up comparable numbers with much smaller usage rates. Even during the time MJ wasn't on the Bulls, Pippen had a smaller usage rate than rookie Lebron, I have no doubt that if Pippen hogged the ball more and took 2-3 more shots per game, his stats would be same, albeit with worse efficiency. That's all I have to say really.

Yeah, I'd build around Lebron, but if I needed to pair MJ with another player, I'd rather go with Pippen, as he has a flawless track record as a 2nd banana to MJ. Lebron was a 2nd banana in the Finals in 2011, and he stunk it up, and he almost did the same thing in 2013 up until Game 6 as a 1st option(in which he also turned the ball over twice in the last minute, throwing the game away until Kawhi and Manu missed key free throws and Jesus hit a miracle 3).

You still haven't given me any reason to believe that if LeBron didn't have to carry such a massive scoring load, and could play the same role on a team as Pippen, that he couldn't do everything as well as, or better than Pippen did.

Oh, and don't say Pippen had a flawless track record. He had his fair share of failures along with MJ before they started winning titles. Not to mention faking a freaking migraine to excuse why he was playing so horribly in G7 against Detroit in the 90 playoffs. Funny that he never had any standout migraine issues at any other point in his career, except for that game. Generally, if you get migraines, you get them frequently. Not just once.

What happened in 2011 and a good portion of the 2013 finals are the EXACT SAME THING that happened to MJ during the years of "The Jordan Rules" against Detroit. Detroit cared about one thing, and that was making life miserable for MJ. They sent constant double and triple teams at him basically any time he tried to score and were extremely physical with him. The result? While MJ scored plenty of points, he did so quite inefficiently, and in the process took his teammates out of the game, since he was so insistent on forcing himself to score, instead of involving his teammates. When he finally figured out the importance of setting his teammates up, and how it will in turn make the game easier for him, they ended up sweeping the Pistons.

The Mavs and Spurs both defended Lebron the same way. But Lebron never tried to force things the way MJ did. He always knew how to play the game the right way. In 2011, Miami simply had no consistent answer for Dirk or Carlisle's coaching, and were simply not as good or complete of a team as they were the following 2 years when they won championships after picking up some better defenders and shooters.

In 2013, Wade played like garbage for most of the series and often hindered Lebron's effectiveness, because it made it much easier for the Spurs to send extra help defense at him. Notice that in game 6, when Lebron went nuts on his run, it was when Wade was out of the game, and they had another shooter in. As soon as Wade came back in, they were sending waves of defenders at Lebron, and it resulted in some missed shots and turnovers on his part. Then in game 7, Wade finally played well, and no surprise, Lebron was able to dominate from start to end. Honestly, if you replaced Wade with a guy like Pippen, the Heat probably win in 5 games. Wade's ineffectiveness was a major reason for Lebron's struggles early in the 2013 finals.

[AchillesHeel]

You still haven't given me any reason to believe that if LeBron didn't have to carry such a massive scoring load, and could play the same role on a team as Pippen, that he couldn't do everything as well as, or better than Pippen did.

Oh, and don't say Pippen had a flawless track record. He had his fair share of failures along with MJ before they started winning titles. Not to mention faking a freaking migraine to excuse why he was playing so horribly in G7 against Detroit in the 90 playoffs. Funny that he never had any standout migraine issues at any other point in his career, except for that game. Generally, if you get migraines, you get them frequently. Not just once.

What happened in 2011 and a good portion of the 2013 finals are the EXACT SAME THING that happened to MJ during the years of "The Jordan Rules" against Detroit. Detroit cared about one thing, and that was making life miserable for MJ. They sent constant double and triple teams at him basically any time he tried to score and were extremely physical with him. The result? While MJ scored plenty of points, he did so quite inefficiently, and in the process took his teammates out of the game, since he was so insistent on forcing himself to score, instead of involving his teammates. When he finally figured out the importance of setting his teammates up, and how it will in turn make the game easier for him, they ended up sweeping the Pistons.

The Mavs and Spurs both defended Lebron the same way. But Lebron never tried to force things the way MJ did. He always knew how to play the game the right way. In 2011, Miami simply had no consistent answer for Dirk or Carlisle's coaching, and were simply not as good or complete of a team as they were the following 2 years when they won championships after picking up some better defenders and shooters.

In 2013, Wade played like garbage for most of the series and often hindered Lebron's effectiveness, because it made it much easier for the Spurs to send extra help defense at him. Notice that in game 6, when Lebron went nuts on his run, it was when Wade was out of the game, and they had another shooter in. As soon as Wade came back in, they were sending waves of defenders at Lebron, and it resulted in some missed shots and turnovers on his part. Then in game 7, Wade finally played well, and no surprise, Lebron was able to dominate from start to end. Honestly, if you replaced Wade with a guy like Pippen, the Heat probably win in 5 games. Wade's ineffectiveness was a major reason for Lebron's struggles early in the 2013 finals.


2011 Finals is a good example, Lebron couldn't score and they made him pass, and he ended up costing the Heat the series, he couldn't lock down Dirk nor Terry nor anyone really, old man Dirk was killing them and Bron who "can play and guard all 5 positions" couldn't do shit about it. The best part about that series was the dagger 3 from Terry, 6'2 guy pulling up on Lebron's face and swishing that shot, cmon son. Jason Terry outplayed Lebron james in a Finals series, just think about that.

Btw, Wade put up 26.5 ppg 7.0 reb 5.2 ast on 54% shooting that series, yeah, they crowded Lebron and he did make some good decisions, but ultimately he had a worse series any other superstar has had in his prime. They often left him open from 3 and gave him the long 2, he couldn't hit a shot, it was 2007 all over again.

[Phillip]

I wouldn't go that far. You act like Pip was some kind of scrub.

In no way have I done such a thing. The very first thing I said in the thread was "Pippen was great and underappreciated"


Pip was unquestionably the better defender of the two. He regularly locked down the opposition's best perimeter threat - not MJ. Pip was probably the most versatile defender in NBA history

I just posted plenty of proof that he didn't always "lock down" the oppositions best threat. I agree he always took on the tougher defensive assignments, is probably the most versatile defender ever, and one of the greatest defenders ever. I NEVER said otherwise. I just said that since he wasn't relied on to be the scoring option that guys like MJ or Lebron were/are, he could focus more of his energy on that end of the court. But MJ and Lebron both have proved throughout their careers, that when its the final 3-5 minutes of a close game, they immediately call off whomever is defending the top wing scorer of the opposing team, take them on themselves, and generally did/does a very good job defending them.


Pip led the 1994 Bulls to game 7 of the ECF. His starting SGs? JoJo English and Pete Myers. 55-27 was their RS record. The a East wasn't no punk back then either. All of this, while dad killer was masquerading as a baseball player during his Stern-mandated timeout because of his gambling problem

And he did a wonderful job leading that team. No question about it. With MJ gone, it allowed some of their more talented players to shine more, like Horace Grant (a highly underrated and under-appreciated player during his time, very much like Pippen) and BJ Armstrong, while they also made some very good offensive additions to the team with Kukoc and Kerr.


if he played with MJ, his name would be LeRobin James. No way would he eat first. So why hold it against Pip?

No one is holding it against Pippen. The only thing people are holding against Pippen in this discussion, is the simple fact that LeBron James is an unquestionably superior basketball player.

And if Lebron did play with MJ, and was his second option, I fully believe that he would be better than Pippen in nearly every way that Pippen was great. About the only thing Pippen was superior at, was having more refined post moves.

[AchillesHeel]

And MJ was NEVER shut down like Lebron, he was still putting up 27-32 ppg on 46+% shooting against the Pistons when they faced in the playoffs, MJ never had series like Lebron did against the Spurs in 07 or Celtics in 08 or Mavs in 2011, MJ could score against anyone, "stopping" him meant making him shoot maybe 5-10% lower than his season average, hardly doing anything to affect his game. Pistons just managed to stop the Bulls every time due to them being the better TEAM, MJ was a total ballhog and the only great player on his team until Pippen and Phil Jackson came along and they went to the triangle. But MJ never struggled to put up numbers and score when needed, he was just in his 2nd season when he put up 43.7 ppg on the Bird's Celtics in a series.

[Phillip]

2011 Finals is a good example, Lebron couldn't score and they made him pass, and he ended up costing the Heat the series, he couldn't lock down Dirk nor Terry nor anyone really, old man Dirk was killing them and Bron who "can play and guard all 5 positions" couldn't do shit about it. The best part about that series was the dagger 3 from Terry, 6'2 guy pulling up on Lebron's face and swishing that shot, cmon son. Jason Terry outplayed Lebron james in a Finals series, just think about that.

Btw, Wade put up 26.5 ppg 7.0 reb 5.2 ast on 54% shooting that series, yeah, they crowded Lebron and he did make some good decisions, but ultimately he had a worse series any other superstar has had in his prime. They often left him open from 3 and gave him the long 2, he couldn't hit a shot, it was 2007 all over again.

Has there ever been any single player to stop Dirk from scoring? You think Pippen would have done any better? :lol

Jason Terry simply caught fire in the final couple games, after being pretty mediocre to awful for most of the series. When a jump-shooting scorer catches fire, no defender can do much about it other than weather the storm and hope you can limit his touches.

It's funny how you continue to point out Lebron's failures, and not acknowledging any of Pippen's, as if Pippen was a flawless defender, when that is not the case and he got his shit pushed in plenty of times by other fantastic scorers, much like Lebron did and every other great defender in NBA history has.

And Wade put those numbers up in that series because Dallas pretty much allowed him to have whatever he wanted. Just as long as Lebron didn't go off. It was clear that was their goal all series. You almost never saw them send extra help defense at Wade the way they did to Lebron. Even Cuban acknowledged that was their gameplan all series.

[Phillip]

And MJ was NEVER shut down like Lebron, he was still putting up 27-32 ppg on 46+% shooting against the Pistons when they faced in the playoffs, MJ never had series like Lebron did against the Spurs in 07 or Celtics in 08 or Mavs in 2011, MJ could score against anyone, "stopping" him meant making him shoot maybe 5-10% lower than his season average, hardly doing anything to affect his game. Pistons just managed to stop the Bulls every time due to them being the better TEAM, MJ was a total ballhog and the only great player on his team until Pippen and Phil Jackson came along and they went to the triangle. But MJ never struggled to put up numbers and score when needed, he was just in his 2nd season when he put up 43.7 ppg on the Bird's Celtics in a series.

No one ever said that Lebron was as good or better of a scorer than MJ. Seems your focus this entire time is to dismiss LeBron, as it seems that your attacks and my replies have nothing more to do with "LeBron vs. Pippen", as opposed to "my personal bullshit vendetta against Lebron because he kicked my team's ass in the Finals" :lmao

[AchillesHeel]

Has there ever been any single player to stop Dirk from scoring? You think Pippen would have done any better? :lol

Jason Terry simply caught fire in the final couple games, after being pretty mediocre to awful for most of the series. When a jump-shooting scorer catches fire, no defender can do much about it other than weather the storm and hope you can limit his touches.

It's funny how you continue to point out Lebron's failures, and not acknowledging any of Pippen's, as if Pippen was a flawless defender, when that is not the case and he got his shit pushed in plenty of times by other fantastic scorers, much like Lebron did and every other great defender in NBA history has.

And Wade put those numbers up in that series because Dallas pretty much allowed him to have whatever he wanted. Just as long as Lebron didn't go off. It was clear that was their goal all series. You almost never saw them send extra help defense at Wade the way they did to Lebron. Even Cuban acknowledged that was their gameplan all series.

I know that, but you said that Lebron could dominate a game without scoring, well, they took away his scoring by not allowing him to the hoop and making him shoot the J (they played ZONE all series), Lebron's defense was also wack in that series as Jason fucking Terry(who Lebron DID defend) put up 18 ppg on 49,4% shooting. A career 6th man at 31 years old, who averages 16 ppg on 45% in the regular season actually gets better against Lebron James on the Finals stage. You can never make up for Lebron's efforts in the Finals. Mavs exposed his then weakness(he's now more consistent) - perimeter scoring, Lebron could not be good enough of a 2nd option to just give Dwyane Wade the ball and do other things, he tried to score and he BRICKED wide open 3s, it wasn't just Lebron being tripled and him passing the ball away, it was also him playing bad on both ends of the floor, as Jason Terry dominated the Heat in Game 6.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3kKxtSQa-4

Just look at these shitty plays, they use a 3 man zone on him and he turns the fucking ball over with a bad pass, he doesn't have a clue what to do, and he also gets locked down by a TOSB Jason Kidd in the post, it's fucking pathetic for an all-time great like Lebron.

All I know is that Lebron is no MJ, comparing him to Michael or him struggling to "the Jordan rules" is pathetic and you're not going to convince anyone.

Pippen was locking down Clyde Drexler,Magic Johnson,Isiah Thomas, Lebron gets lit up by a 31 yr old Jason Terry :lol


Let's just agree that Lebron is the better overall talent than Pippen and keep it at that.

[Killakobe81]

I know that, but you said that Lebron could dominate a game without scoring, well, they took away his scoring by not allowing him to the hoop and making him shoot the J (they played ZONE all series), Lebron's defense was also wack in that series as Jason fucking Terry(who Lebron DID defend) put up 18 ppg on 49,4% shooting. A career 6th man at 31 years old, who averages 16 ppg on 45% in the regular season actually gets better against Lebron James on the Finals stage. You can never make up for Lebron's efforts in the Finals. Mavs exposed his then weakness(he's now more consistent) - perimeter scoring, Lebron could not be good enough of a 2nd option to just give Dwyane Wade the ball and do other things, he tried to score and he BRICKED wide open 3s, it wasn't just Lebron being tripled and him passing the ball away, it was also him playing bad on both ends of the floor, as Jason Terry dominated the Heat in Game 6.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3kKxtSQa-4

Just look at these shitty plays, they use a 3 man zone on him and he turns the fucking ball over with a bad pass, he doesn't have a clue what to do, and he also gets locked down by a TOSB Jason Kidd in the post, it's fucking pathetic for an all-time great like Lebron.

All I know is that Lebron is no MJ, comparing him to Michael or him struggling to "the Jordan rules" is pathetic and you're not going to convince anyone.

Pippen was locking down Clyde Drexler,Magic Johnson,Isiah Thomas, Lebron gets lit up by a 31 yr old Jason Terry :lol


Let's just agree that Lebron is the better overall talent than Pippen and keep it at that.

I think Lebron as a defender is a bit overrated especially if comparing to Pippen, Rodman, Cooper and Bowen. He is a better defender than most players in the GOAT conversation Magic, Bird Kareem ... but Prippen was imho a better defender.
But Pipp NEVER had to carry a team and a coach (pipp had PJ) to a Finals like Lebron did ... And Im pretty sure Pippen wasn't as amazing on defense (IIRC) during the one year he carried the bulls during MJ's retirement.

[Killakobe81]

And btw, as much as I admire Lebron and his game. He has choked at times. He still has a ugly post game. he is a slave to stats. But despite those flaws he still is one of the best passers in the game. An athletic freak with a high level of skill. Unstoppable in the open court. A much improved jump shooter and a high level if a bit overrated defender. HE still has outside shot at GOAT potential and is still in or near his prime.

It just annoys me when people act like criticizing a part of his game is blasphemy. I criticized a jumper he took in the playoffs last year and Lebron nut riders attacked me and brought up Kobe ...and that had nothing to do with my point. Just because Lebron is the best he cant be touched? In my book even Mj had flaws. Hell Kobe has plenty and Magic was was not flawless either. when you are talking about GOATS especially when comparing you HAVE to mention their warts too.

But back to the topic. Lebron has eclipsed Pippen in every way except as a defender. Lebron to me is an even better passer tbh ...Pippen probably a better dribbler/facilitator. The way I see it Lebron has some Bird/Magic vision. Pippen was great initiator of offense but I never saw THAT. Plus he was the initiator in the triangle which requires far less traditional playmaking tbh. I did think Pipp was a better shooter initially but Lebron has passed him there as well the past two seasons.

[AchillesHeel]

I think Lebron as a defender is a bit overrated especially if comparing to Pippen, Rodman, Cooper and Bowen. He is a better defender than most players in the GOAT conversation Magic, Bird Kareem ... but Prippen was imho a better defender.
But Pipp NEVER had to carry a team and a coach (pipp had PJ) to a Finals like Lebron did ... And Im pretty sure Pippen wasn't as amazing on defense (IIRC) during the one year he carried the bulls during MJ's retirement.

he averaged 2.9 steals per game(tied career high), lowest DRTG in his career(97), 6.0 DWS and career high PER, 54,4%TS, 49% from the field. He had a fantastic season all-around.

[Killakobe81]

he averaged 2.9 steals per game(tied career high), lowest DRTG in his career(97), 6.0 DWS and career high PER, 54,4%TS, 49% from the field. He had a fantastic season all-around.

not a big believer in DRating but I admit I did not watch a lot of the Bulls that year except playoffs and marquee games. But either way I said I strongly believed he is a superior defender to Bron, I think James is overrated on that end tbh ... much like MJ he chooses his spots on defense. Pippen focused on defense

[Killakobe81]

Also lol at steals/per game as a valuable defensive metric ...

Montae ellis was great at steals ... heck Magic once led the league in it as well (IIRC).

[mudyez]

If I'd build a team "the book of basketball" style (picking players from a time machine to face some alien team that wants to end mankind) the starting5 would look like this:

Olajuwon ('93)
Duncan ('03)
James ('13)
Pippen ('95)
Jordan ('92) (the wings may handle PG duties)

(you can argue about the years)

...but Bron could end up beeing the second banana, while Scottie always will be the 5th!

[Leetonidas]

Kobe vs. Pippen is a much better debate but tbh 6>5

[Phillip]

I know that, but you said that Lebron could dominate a game without scoring, well, they took away his scoring by not allowing him to the hoop and making him shoot the J (they played ZONE all series), Lebron's defense was also wack in that series as Jason fucking Terry(who Lebron DID defend) put up 18 ppg on 49,4% shooting. A career 6th man at 31 years old, who averages 16 ppg on 45% in the regular season actually gets better against Lebron James on the Finals stage. You can never make up for Lebron's efforts in the Finals. Mavs exposed his then weakness(he's now more consistent) - perimeter scoring, Lebron could not be good enough of a 2nd option to just give Dwyane Wade the ball and do other things, he tried to score and he BRICKED wide open 3s, it wasn't just Lebron being tripled and him passing the ball away, it was also him playing bad on both ends of the floor, as Jason Terry dominated the Heat in Game 6.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3kKxtSQa-4

Just look at these shitty plays, they use a 3 man zone on him and he turns the fucking ball over with a bad pass, he doesn't have a clue what to do, and he also gets locked down by a TOSB Jason Kidd in the post, it's fucking pathetic for an all-time great like Lebron.

All I know is that Lebron is no MJ, comparing him to Michael or him struggling to "the Jordan rules" is pathetic and you're not going to convince anyone.

Pippen was locking down Clyde Drexler,Magic Johnson,Isiah Thomas, Lebron gets lit up by a 31 yr old Jason Terry :lol


Let's just agree that Lebron is the better overall talent than Pippen and keep it at that.

The only one here who continues comparing Lebron to MJ is you, which makes it even more obvious that you are more focused on shitting on Lebron in any way possible, as opposed to the debate at hand.

You still seem to refuse to acknowledge any of Pippen's shortcomings, and ONLY are pointing out Lebron's. And you continue to ignore a number of other facts about Pippen and his responsibilities to try to back up your claims.

Yes, its probably best to no longer debate this with you, considering your highly narrow-minded approach to this.

[Phillip]

And btw, as much as I admire Lebron and his game. He has choked at times. He still has a ugly post game. he is a slave to stats. But despite those flaws he still is one of the best passers in the game. An athletic freak with a high level of skill. Unstoppable in the open court. A much improved jump shooter and a high level if a bit overrated defender. HE still has outside shot at GOAT potential and is still in or near his prime.

It just annoys me when people act like criticizing a part of his game is blasphemy. I criticized a jumper he took in the playoffs last year and Lebron nut riders attacked me and brought up Kobe ...and that had nothing to do with my point. Just because Lebron is the best he cant be touched? In my book even Mj had flaws. Hell Kobe has plenty and Magic was was not flawless either. when you are talking about GOATS especially when comparing you HAVE to mention their warts too.

But back to the topic. Lebron has eclipsed Pippen in every way except as a defender. Lebron to me is an even better passer tbh ...Pippen probably a better dribbler/facilitator. The way I see it Lebron has some Bird/Magic vision. Pippen was great initiator of offense but I never saw THAT. Plus he was the initiator in the triangle which requires far less traditional playmaking tbh. I did think Pipp was a better shooter initially but Lebron has passed him there as well the past two seasons.

Well put, every player has flaws. Unfortunately, some people only want to look at the flaws of one particular player that they don't personally like, and act as if other players had none (in particular, MJ is always viewed as flawless in peoples eyes, which is a load of crap)

[AchillesHeel]

The only one here who continues comparing Lebron to MJ is you, which makes it even more obvious that you are more focused on shitting on Lebron in any way possible, as opposed to the debate at hand.

You still seem to refuse to acknowledge any of Pippen's shortcomings, and ONLY are pointing out Lebron's. And you continue to ignore a number of other facts about Pippen and his responsibilities to try to back up your claims.

Yes, its probably best to no longer debate this with you, considering your highly narrow-minded approach to this.

What are Pippen's supposed failures? I have pointed out Lebron's and you've done shit to counter. Of course you're done, as you have nothing important to say. You were the one to compare Lebron's 2011 Finals chokejob to "the Jordan rules", not me.

Pippen is 6 out of 6 in the finals, he averaged 21 8 and 7 in the Finals for the first three-peat and led a team to a 55 win record despite having a bunch of scrubs on the roster after MJ took time off. Pippen could impact a team in a big way even when his scoring was off and his shot wasn't falling, he was a big part of the 72-10 Bulls, the most dominant regular season team ever, he was the perfect team player, who focused on the defensive end, he locked down Magic,Isiah and Drexler in the playoffs.

See, I state clear facts that you can check up online or on Youtube with your OWN eyes, you can't deny what's there, all I see is you making up bs about Lebron being a better rebounder and a defender than prime Pippen, when numbers suggest otherwise.

So yeah, for the 100th time, Lebron is the better player(how's that hating?) due to his playmaking and scoring ability.

Here, read my initial post again. Your dumb ass wanted to argue with this point, and your dumb ass called me a hater when you had nothing else to say


Pippen is the better defender, and he's also very athletic and can carry a team to a 55 win record. If I started a franchise, I'd obviously pick Lebron first, but if I already had a guy like MJ or Timmy on my team, I'd choose Pippen as the 2nd banana, tbh. 90-97 Pippen was a fucking beast, people who watched him know that.


Lebron's greatest talent is his scoring and passing ability, it's funny how a Mavfan is so insecure about someone calling Pippen a better defender than Lebron, it's laughable.

[Clipper Nation]

What are Pippen's supposed failures?
The Fake Migraine in 1990, pouting on the bench in '94 while Kukoc hit the game-winner, quitting on the Rockets in '99, the 4th quarter meltdown against the Lakers in 2000, etc...

[AchillesHeel]

The Fake Migraine in 1990, pouting on the bench in '94 while Kukoc hit the game-winner, quitting on the Rockets in '99, the 4th quarter meltdown against the Lakers in 2000, etc...

:lmao Doesn't even stack up with the likes of Kirby and Lebronze.

[Brazil]

Lebron could still be the GOAT at the end of his career and already a top 15 probably... Pippen is a top 30 -40 I guess. He is the best defender of the two, all the rest is pretty much for Lebron

[Phillip]

The Fake Migraine in 1990, pouting on the bench in '94 while Kukoc hit the game-winner, quitting on the Rockets in '99, the 4th quarter meltdown against the Lakers in 2000, etc...

Not to mention the list of people who had fantastic scoring playoff series against Pippen and the Bulls. Apparently he's too stupid to read though.

[Sean Cagney]

Pippen is the better defender, and he's also very athletic and can carry a team to a 55 win record. If I started a franchise, I'd obviously pick Lebron first, but if I already had a guy like MJ or Timmy on my team, I'd choose Pippen as the 2nd banana, tbh. 90-97 Pippen was a fucking beast, people who watched him know that.

^^^^ This.

[Phillip]

Pippen is 6 out of 6 in the finals, he averaged 21 8 and 7 in the Finals for the first three-peat and led a team to a 55 win record despite having a bunch of scrubs on the roster after MJ took time off. Pippen could impact a team in a big way even when his scoring was off and his shot wasn't falling, he was a big part of the 72-10 Bulls, the most dominant regular season team ever, he was the perfect team player, who focused on the defensive end, he locked down Magic,Isiah and Drexler in the playoffs.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao locking down Magic

case in point, you pick and choose ridiculous examples that don't tell the whole story. Like I stated before, many of your examples would be as stupid as if I were to say Timmy sucks at defense because he gets lit up by Dirk and the Spurs do everything they can to not allow him to guard Dirk. There are other sides to it. But you apparently don't want to look at the whole scope. Either that, or are simply too stupid to do so.


See, I state clear facts that you can check up online or on Youtube with your OWN eyes, you can't deny what's there, all I see is you making up bs about Lebron being a better rebounder and a defender than prime Pippen, when numbers suggest otherwise.

When did I ever say Lebron was a better defender than Pippen? I simply said that I believe that he can play as good or better defense than Pippen if he wasn't the #1 option on his team. If he spent his whole career being a #2 like Pippen was, I don't see any reason NOT to believe he would have been able to accomplish what Pippen did, but better.

But I never once said anything about Lebron being a better all time defender or anything like that.

As for your rebounding claims, you obviously were incorrect, and nearly every stat proves it, not to mention the size, vertical leap, and strength advantages Lebron has over Pippen. I'd take Lebron all day as a pure rebounder over Scottie.


Lebron's greatest talent is his scoring and passing ability, it's funny how a Mavfan is so insecure about someone calling Pippen a better defender than Lebron, it's laughable.

Not once have I disagreed about Lebron's greatest talents. And again, I never had a problem with saying Pippen is a greater defender than Lebron, although it's somewhat misleading due to various circumstances I've pointed out. Yet, you continue to ignore the stats, facts, and situations that have been presented not just by myself, and others, to justify your narrowminded approach.

And I wasn't the one who started making Lebron comparisons to MJ, nor did I ever dismiss any of Pippen's accomplishments, unlike you who never held back comparisons between Lebron and MJ, and dismissing Lebron's accomplishments in manners that had absolutely nothing to do with the initial discussion at hand.

:rolleyes

[Phillip]

:lmao Doesn't even stack up with the likes of Kirby and Lebronze.

:lmao and you try to basically claim that you are not being biased? Then you throw out stuff like this? :rollin:rollin:rollin:rollin

[Indazone]

lol this is actually a serious poll? Dumbass Pippen came to Houston in 99. He stunk.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

lol this is actually a serious poll? Dumbass Pippen came to Houston in 99. He stunk.

This can't be a serious post...

Pippen was SIX years out of his prime when he went to Houston. Do you think LeBron will post stats like he does when he's 36-37?

I have no problem with people voting LeBron.. he's the favorite in this poll... but dumbass comments like these... it's like "let me vote for LeBron even though I've never actually seen Pippen play irl"

and btw, idiotzone, he averaged 15, 6, and 6 in Houston.

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol Pippen is on the All-Overrated team on the Internet, tbh..he was a top 5 player in the league for maybe 1 season, 2 max..he had minimal offensive responsibility compared to other star players, while playing in a great and historic system in a weak era of basketball..I find it comical that fans always cite his elite defense, but ignore the fact that he was allowed to use most of his energy on that end due to lack of offensive responsibility, tbh..

Also, as CN pointed out, Pippen was a diva that didn't know how to handle being a #1 option, he benefited greatly from the presence of Phil Jackson and Dad Killer..

As for Lebron's defense, unlike Pippen, he does his defensive damage as an anchor while completely carrying his team on the offensive end, which has only been done by players like Hakeem, Duncan, etc..not to mention the Heat have average defensive talent, at best..

FYI, since joining Miami, in addition to being an anchor, Lebron shut down Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce and Luol Deng for an entire series..he shut down Tony Parker in the pivotal games 6 and 7, shut down Derrick Rose in virtually every 4th quarter of the 2011 series, and he annihilated Paul George in game 7, the only game where he covered him exclusively..

The only player that Lebron wasn't able to stop was Durant, but he didn't guard him for most of the series anyways, deferring to Battier to save energy..Dominos is by far the 2nd best player in the league, there's no shame in allowing him to score, tbh..

All of this while exerting a ton of energy on the offensive end with minimal support, tbh..it amazes me that NBA fans constantly ignore a player's responsibilities on the court..Pippen would not be nearly as great on defense if he actually had to carry a team on offense, obviously..

Lebron >>> Pippen
Kobe >>> Pippen

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:lol Pippen is on the All-Overrated team on the Internet, tbh..he was a top 5 player in the league for maybe 1 season, 2 max..he had minimal offensive responsibility compared to other star players, while playing in a great and historic system in a weak era of basketball..I find it comical that fans always cite his elite defense, but ignore the fact that he was allowed to use most of his energy on that end due to lack of offensive responsibility, tbh..

Also, as CN pointed out, Pippen was a diva that didn't know how to handle being a #1 option, he benefited greatly from the presence of Phil Jackson and Dad Killer..

As for Lebron's defense, unlike Pippen, he does his defensive damage as an anchor while completely carrying his team on the offensive end, which has only been done by players like Hakeem, Duncan, etc..not to mention the Heat have average defensive talent, at best..

FYI, since joining Miami, in addition to being an anchor, Lebron shut down Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce and Luol Deng for an entire series..he shut down Tony Parker in the pivotal games 6 and 7, shut down Derrick Rose in virtually every 4th quarter of the 2011 series, and he annihilated Paul George in game 7, the only game where he covered him exclusively..

The only player that Lebron wasn't able to stop was Durant, but he didn't guard him for most of the series anyways, deferring to Battier to save energy..

All of this while exerting a ton of energy on the offensive end with minimal support, tbh..it amazes me that NNA fans ignore a player's responsibilities on the court..Pippen would not be nearly as great on defense if he actually had to carry a team on offense, obviously..

Tbh, all I hear is you gargling on his dick.

Pippen averaged better stats than LeBron rebounding and assist-wise for the majority of his career. He also stopped Magic, Drexler and Richmond throughout is career.

Pippen is not overrated, and if anything is underrated.

He was a HUGE part of the six titles, and MJ wouldn't have won six, maybe not any without him.

[Phillip]

This can't be a serious post...

Pippen was SIX years out of his prime when he went to Houston. Do you think LeBron will post stats like he does when he's 36-37?

I have no problem with people voting LeBron.. he's the favorite in this poll... but dumbass comments like these... it's like "let me vote for LeBron even though I've never actually seen Pippen play irl"

and btw, idiotzone, he averaged 15, 6, and 6 in Houston.

actually, he was 33 when he played in Houston. Not quite in his prime, but not fully out of it.

[AchillesHeel]

Not to mention the list of people who had fantastic scoring playoff series against Pippen and the Bulls. Apparently he's too stupid to read though.

Seriously? You did nothing to retort the facts I posted. Typical beta behavior.

You provided 0 examples to back up your claims. Every elite offensive player's stats dipped going up against Chicago in the playoffs: Isiah shot 40% in 90 and 91 in against CHI with Pippen guarding him every game, Drexler shot 40% against Scottie in the Finals, Kevin Johnson put up a whopping 17 points and 6.5 assists a game on 42% shooting in the 93 Finals

Only wing that did get points in was Penny Hardaway in 96, averaged 25 ppg on 46% shooting in the playoffs against Chicago, but the Magic lost anyways

Pippen took the other team's best wing player and he locked them down

I ain't gonna break it all down, but here's some great video footage for you to study, my son:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk

look at him deny post entry passes to guys like Ewing and Barkley, look at the basketball IQ on those plays, the ability to anticipate where the ball is going...you are batshit crazy if you think Pippen is overrated on the defensive end

Pippen was defending guys like Ewing,Malone and Barkley in the post ALL THE TIME, you don't see Lebron doing that for long strethces, Lebron is notorious for guarding PGs that are 5-6 inches smaller than him and 190-210 pounds, Pippen took on guys that were bigger than him, and more often that none he was successful at it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1YchiFv-5M
Watch the footage, study Pippen's all-around game before you come at me with 0 examples of how he's overrated or how he came up short...Ridiculous.

Pippen was an elite defender both in the post and on the perimeter, he could work on the big guys as well as on any wing in the league.

[thunderup]

:lol This thread will be funny in 2-3 years when LeRoid's body is desensitizing to the PED's and his game will mirror D-whistle's. He'll look less explosive and will have to rely on skill rather than athleticism, something he'll struggle with and one of the reasons he'll never be as great as Jordan. His game will be worse than Kirby's at the moment.

:lol @ Lebron's Jizzcup assistant Phillip (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=15120) cementing himself as one of the biggest Lebron homers on the site with shit take after shit take

[spurraider21]

i'll take the guy that has led a team to championships. Scottie was spectacular, and on this forum, under-appreciated, but LeBron has put his teams on his back in ways Pippen just couldn't

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

actually, he was 33 when he played in Houston. Not quite in his prime, but not fully out of it.

LOL. I know for a fact you didn't watch Pippen play now.

Pippen was out of his prime the year or before the year that MJ left. Seriously? He was way out of his prime after the six peat... much less Houston.. gtfo

[Killakobe81]

:lol Pippen is on the All-Overrated team on the Internet, tbh..he was a top 5 player in the league for maybe 1 season, 2 max..he had minimal offensive responsibility compared to other star players, while playing in a great and historic system in a weak era of basketball..I find it comical that fans always cite his elite defense, but ignore the fact that he was allowed to use most of his energy on that end due to lack of offensive responsibility, tbh..

Also, as CN pointed out, Pippen was a diva that didn't know how to handle being a #1 option, he benefited greatly from the presence of Phil Jackson and Dad Killer..

As for Lebron's defense, unlike Pippen, he does his defensive damage as an anchor while completely carrying his team on the offensive end, which has only been done by players like Hakeem, Duncan, etc..not to mention the Heat have average defensive talent, at best..

FYI, since joining Miami, in addition to being an anchor, Lebron shut down Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce and Luol Deng for an entire series..he shut down Tony Parker in the pivotal games 6 and 7, shut down Derrick Rose in virtually every 4th quarter of the 2011 series, and he annihilated Paul George in game 7, the only game where he covered him exclusively..

The only player that Lebron wasn't able to stop was Durant, but he didn't guard him for most of the series anyways, deferring to Battier to save energy..Dominos is by far the 2nd best player in the league, there's no shame in allowing him to score, tbh..

All of this while exerting a ton of energy on the offensive end with minimal support, tbh..it amazes me that NBA fans constantly ignore a player's responsibilities on the court..Pippen would not be nearly as great on defense if he actually had to carry a team on offense, obviously..

Some goods as always and Pipp is a bit overrated on here obviously ...
Lebron gets compared to Kobe and MJ ...
Pippen not so much ...
But you overrating Lebron just a bit ... he is amazing. But Battier does some of the heavy lifting on defense and at times even though he is the better defender they leave Wade on top SG even though James is the better defender. They dont always switch Lebron on those guys which to me is similar to MJ. The Heat has great help defenders same as Bulls. Lebron is a potential GOAT but I still think 1 on 1 DEFENSIVELY Pippen is better. Sure all of what you said about responsibilities is true but we can only go by what we see.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:lol This thread will be funny in 2-3 years when LeRoid's body is desensitizing to the PED's and his game will mirror D-whistle's. He'll look less explosive and will have to rely on skill rather than athleticism, something he'll struggle with and one of the reasons he'll never be as great as Jordan. His game will be worse than Kirby's at the moment.

:lol @ Lebron's Jizzcup assistant Phillip (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=15120) cementing himself as one of the biggest Lebron homers on the site with shit take after shit take


This dude just got caught. "Pippen wasn't out of his prime in Houston". - LOL GTFO

LeJizzcup fans will say ANYTHING to solidify LeBron. I'm willing to say that Pippen would shut him down in a series. If Kawhi Leonard can do it, Pippen can.

[Phillip]

Pippen averaged better stats than LeBron rebounding and assist-wise for the majority of his career.

Incorrect. Check the stats before making stuff up.


Pippen is not overrated, and if anything is underrated.

He was a HUGE part of the six titles, and MJ wouldn't have won six, maybe not any without him.

I fully agree with this.

[Phillip]

Seriously? You did nothing to retort the facts I posted. Typical beta behavior.

You provided 0 examples to back up your claims. Every elite offensive player's stats dipped going up against Chicago in the playoffs: Isiah shot 40% in 90 and 91 in against CHI with Pippen guarding him every game, Drexler shot 40% against Scottie in the Finals, Kevin Johnson put up a whopping 17 points and 6.5 assists a game on 42% shooting in the 93 Finals

Only wing that did get points in was Penny Hardaway in 96, averaged 25 ppg on 46% shooting in the playoffs against Chicago, but the Magic lost anyways

Pippen took the other team's best wing player and he locked them down

I ain't gonna break it all down, but here's some great video footage for you to study, my son:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk

look at him deny post entry passes to guys like Ewing and Barkley, look at the basketball IQ on those plays, the ability to anticipate where the ball is going...you are batshit crazy if you think Pippen is overrated on the defensive end

Pippen was defending guys like Ewing,Malone and Barkley in the post ALL THE TIME, you don't see Lebron doing that for long strethces, Lebron is notorious for guarding PGs that are 5-6 inches smaller than him and 190-210 pounds, Pippen took on guys that were bigger than him, and more often that none he was successful at it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1YchiFv-5M
Watch the footage, study Pippen's all-around game before you come at me with 0 examples of how he's overrated or how he came up short...Ridiculous.

Pippen was an elite defender both in the post and on the perimeter, he could work on the big guys as well as on any wing in the league.

tl;dr

not worth it to read a load of horse shit

[AchillesHeel]

:lol This thread will be funny in 2-3 years when LeRoid's body is desensitizing to the PED's and his game will mirror D-whistle's. He'll look less explosive and will have to rely on skill rather than athleticism, something he'll struggle with and one of the reasons he'll never be as great as Jordan. His game will be worse than Kirby's at the moment.

:lol @ Lebron's Jizzcup assistant Phillip (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=15120) cementing himself as one of the biggest Lebron homers on the site with shit take after shit take

Seriously, this nigga tried to compare Lebron's 2011 Finals choke job to "the Jordan rules". and how Lebron was triple-teamed and didn't miss wide open shots to cost his team the title :lmao

[LkrFan]

In no way have I done such a thing. The very first thing I said in the thread was "Pippen was great and underappreciated"



I just posted plenty of proof that he didn't always "lock down" the oppositions best threat. I agree he always took on the tougher defensive assignments, is probably the most versatile defender ever, and one of the greatest defenders ever. I NEVER said otherwise. I just said that since he wasn't relied on to be the scoring option that guys like MJ or Lebron were/are, he could focus more of his energy on that end of the court. But MJ and Lebron both have proved throughout their careers, that when its the final 3-5 minutes of a close game, they immediately call off whomever is defending the top wing scorer of the opposing team, take them on themselves, and generally did/does a very good job defending them.



And he did a wonderful job leading that team. No question about it. With MJ gone, it allowed some of their more talented players to shine more, like Horace Grant (a highly underrated and under-appreciated player during his time, very much like Pippen) and BJ Armstrong, while they also made some very good offensive additions to the team with Kukoc and Kerr.



No one is holding it against Pippen. The only thing people are holding against Pippen in this discussion, is the simple fact that LeBron James is an unquestionably superior basketball player.

And if Lebron did play with MJ, and was his second option, I fully believe that he would be better than Pippen in nearly every way that Pippen was great. About the only thing Pippen was superior at, was having more refined post moves.
Admission: my post was strictly concerning the bolded word "unquestionably" in your post I quoted. I need to go back and read your other posts - it appears we mostly agree about these two players.

Where I still disagree with you on is about defense, leadership, and now that you mentioned it: post game. Pip is a far superior player in these areas. I know Bron is a better scorer, but I've seen Pip score 40+ in the '80s (the toughest era IMO) - so if Pip played in today's era, I could see him avg 25ppg to go with about 7rebs, and 7apg. He'd be Paul George on steroids. Today's rules have been implemented to speed the game up and manufacture superstars (like Wade and his patent pending FTAs). Prime MJ would avg 40+ppg in today's era of no hand checking. Hell, Prime Kobe average 35.4 in '06 so I'd say in his prime he'd damn near average 40 as well in today's era.

/Rambling Over

i agree with 100% about him being underappreciated. There isn't a SF in NBA history that I'd take over him. That includes my man Worthy and Bird. Sure these two are superior offensively, but there are two sides of the court. Pip runs circles around them on the defensive end.

i was so hoping Dr. Buss would have picked him up in '99 as a FA - instead of him going to Rockets and Blazers. A big 3 of Shaq, Kobe, and Pip would have won about 5 straight rangs. But it wasn't meant to be :(.

[AchillesHeel]

tl;dr

not worth it to read a load of horse shit

Obviously you have nothing to respond with.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

tl;dr

not worth it to read a load of horse shit

Why it's impossible to debate with CN or Philip. Anything to go against LeBron's legacy is either filled with irrelevant crap or "Two rangz". They don't even acknowledge that LeBron SHIT the playoffs away for the first 5.75 games of this years finals.

[Phillip]

Seriously, this nigga tried to compare Lebron's 2011 Finals choke job to "the Jordan rules". and how Lebron was triple-teamed and didn't miss wide open shots to cost his team the title :lmao

:lmao changing the thread from being whether to build a team around Pippen or Lebron, into an "i hate lebron:cry:cry:cry he beat my spurs :cry :cry:cry" thread

[AchillesHeel]

Admission: my post was strictly concerning the bolded word "unquestionably" in your post I quoted. I need to go back and read your other posts - it appears we mostly agree about these two players.

Where I still disagree with you on is about defense, leadership, and now that you mentioned it: post game. Pip is a far superior player in these areas. I know Bron is a better scorer, but I've seen Pip score 40+ in the '80s (the toughest era IMO) - so if Pip played in today's era, I could see him avg 25ppg to go with about 7rebs, and 7apg. He'd be Paul George on steroids. Today's rules have been implemented to speed the game up and manufacture superstars (like Wade and his patent pending FTAs). Prime MJ would avg 40+ppg in today's era of no hand checking. Hell, Prime Kobe average 35.4 in '06 so I'd say in his prime he'd damn near average 40 as well in today's era.

/Rambling Over

i agree with 100% about him being underappreciated. There isn't a SF in NBA history that I'd take over him. That includes my man Worthy and Bird. Sure these two are superior offensively, but there are two sides of the court. Pip runs circles around them on the defensive end.

i was so hoping Dr. Buss would have picked him up in '99 as a FA - instead of him going to Rockets and Blazers. A big 3 of Shaq, Kobe, and Pip would have won about 5 straight rangs. But it wasn't meant to be :(.

Solid take from a lakerfan.

[AchillesHeel]

:lmao changing the thread from being whether to build a team around Pippen or Lebron, into an "i hate lebron:cry:cry:cry he beat my spurs :cry :cry:cry" thread

You were the one to compare Lebron to MJ in the first place.

I have nothing against Lebron and the Heat winning the 2013 Finals, Pop and Manu beat the Spurs in Game 6.

[Phillip]

Why it's impossible to debate with CN or Philip. Anything to go against LeBron's legacy is either filled with irrelevant crap or "Two rangz". They don't even acknowledge that LeBron SHIT the playoffs away for the first 5.75 games of this years finals.

Actually, I've said plenty of times on the forum that Lebron didn't play a good series in the 2011 finals, and was inconsistent early on in the 2013 finals.

Just because I state facts that teams gameplanned for him extremely well in those series that helped lead to some of his struggles, doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge his shortcomings.

[thunderup]

Why it's impossible to debate with CN or Philip. Anything to go against LeBron's legacy is either filled with irrelevant crap or "Two rangz". They don't even acknowledge that LeBron SHIT the playoffs away for the first 5.75 games of this years finals.
If I remember correctly, Phillip was the poster who also tried downgrading Kawhi's ability last year by comparing him to Battier or some other player with similar ability. Can't remember which one he choose. He's one of the worst posters on this site and its not even close.

[Phillip]

Admission: my post was strictly concerning the bolded word "unquestionably" in your post I quoted. I need to go back and read your other posts - it appears we mostly agree about these two players.

Where I still disagree with you on is about defense, leadership, and now that you mentioned it: post game. Pip is a far superior player in these areas. I know Bron is a better scorer, but I've seen Pip score 40+ in the '80s (the toughest era IMO) - so if Pip played in today's era, I could see him avg 25ppg to go with about 7rebs, and 7apg. He'd be Paul George on steroids. Today's rules have been implemented to speed the game up and manufacture superstars (like Wade and his patent pending FTAs). Prime MJ would avg 40+ppg in today's era of no hand checking. Hell, Prime Kobe average 35.4 in '06 so I'd say in his prime he'd damn near average 40 as well in today's era.

Leadership? I never saw Pippen lead a team to a championship. Sure he had a major role in championships, but he NEVER was the indisputed leader, and there was never a single Finals series where Pippen seemed to remotely have a chance at winning FMVP over MJ. Yeah, I don't see how you justify that.

:lol rule changes. People still handcheck, just not in blatantly obvious manners. But pretty much every play has some sort of handchecking going on.

[Phillip]

If I remem:cryber correctly, Phillip was the poste:cryr who also tried downgrad:crying Kawhi's ability last year b:cryy comparing him to Batti:cryer or some other player with :crysimilar ability. :cryCan't remember w:cryhich one he choose. :cryHe's one of the wor:cryst posters on this site :cryand its not eve:cryn close.:cry:cry:cry

[Phillip]

You were the one to compare Lebron to MJ in the first place.

If by comparing the simple fact that they both were #1 options on their respective squads, then yes. But you were the one who posted this, when it was completely irrelevant.


And MJ was NEVER shut down like Lebron, he was still putting up 27-32 ppg on 46+% shooting against the Pistons when they faced in the playoffs, MJ never had series like Lebron did against the Spurs in 07 or Celtics in 08 or Mavs in 2011, MJ could score against anyone, "stopping" him meant making him shoot maybe 5-10% lower than his season average, hardly doing anything to affect his game. Pistons just managed to stop the Bulls every time due to them being the better TEAM, MJ was a total ballhog and the only great player on his team until Pippen and Phil Jackson came along and they went to the triangle. But MJ never struggled to put up numbers and score when needed, he was just in his 2nd season when he put up 43.7 ppg on the Bird's Celtics in a series.

[thunderup]

At least you own up to your shitty take. Adding :cry emoticons in between sentences is so original and unique. You got me, partner.

[thunderup]

Anytime greatness is discussed, MJ will be cited as the barometer. It's not his fault LeRoid has choked on multiple occasions and nearly choked away the title individually in game 6.

[Phillip]

lol 2012 finals

[AchillesHeel]

If by comparing the simple fact that they both were #1 options on their respective squads, then yes. But you were the one who posted this, when it was completely irrelevant.

It was a response to this:


What happened in 2011 and a good portion of the 2013 finals are the EXACT SAME THING that happened to MJ during the years of "The Jordan Rules" against Detroit. Detroit cared about one thing, and that was making life miserable for MJ. They sent constant double and triple teams at him basically any time he tried to score and were extremely physical with him. The result? While MJ scored plenty of points, he did so quite inefficiently, and in the process took his teammates out of the game, since he was so insistent on forcing himself to score, instead of involving his teammates. When he finally figured out the importance of setting his teammates up, and how it will in turn make the game easier for him, they ended up sweeping the Pistons.


Seriously? You said that MJ was INEFFICIENT. Does 28-30 ppg on 46-48% shooting scream INEFFICIENT to you? is it comparable to Lebron's 2011 or 2013 Finals? Heck no.

The difference between "The Jordan rules" and Lebron's 2011 Finals is that while Detroit took the rest of the Bulls out of the game, they never took Jordan out of the game, Lebron was taken out of games by having WIDE OPEN SHOTS.

That's all I tried to say on like 3-4 different posts, where you called me out on "hating" on Lebron, while I was merely responding to YOUR post. You were trying to put Lebron on the same level as MJ, as if Lebron has ever been as big of a threat as Michael :lol

[LkrFan]

Leadership? I never saw Pippen lead a team to a championship. Sure he had a major role in championships, but he NEVER was the indisputed leader, and there was never a single Finals series where Pippen seemed to remotely have a chance at winning FMVP over MJ. Yeah, I don't see how you justify that.

:lol rule changes. People still handcheck, just not in blatantly obvious manners. But pretty much every play has some sort of handchecking going on.You can't blame Pip for failing to rang with Pete Myers as his SG. Getting to the ECF was a huge feat considering the supposed massive void MJ left. If you think Pip's leadership shouldn't be credited for that, we'll agree to disagree.

And if that's your take, then Bron should be docked some points here. Yes, he rang twice, but... Battier saved his ass in '12, and Ray Allen did the same last year. Come to think about it, Bron mostly choked when they needed him in the clutch. Sure he was their best player (can't say that about Pip in either of his championship teams for obvious reasons), but if not for role players like Battier and Allen, he's an 0-timer. Sad because he was on a stacked team with 3 players that were top 10 at their position and great, savvy role players. They shouldn't have even been challenged - let along losing to your Mavs - and they definitely should have lost to the Spurs last year.

For the record: Bron would have played 2nd fiddle to MJ - just like Pip did. And for shits and giggles, he would have played 2nd fiddle to a 24-year old, 315lb Shaq too. ;)

[thunderup]

It was a response to this:



Seriously? You said that MJ was INEFFICIENT. Does 28-30 ppg on 46-48% shooting scream INEFFICIENT to you? is it comparable to Lebron's 2011 or 2013 Finals? Heck no.

The difference between "The Jordan rules" and Lebron's 2011 Finals is that while Detroit took the rest of the Bulls out of the game, they never took Jordan out of the game, Lebron was taken out of games by having WIDE OPEN SHOTS.

That's all I tried to say on like 3-4 different posts, where you called me out on "hating" on Lebron, while I was merely responding to YOUR post. You were trying to put Lebron on the same level as MJ, as if Lebron has ever been as big of a threat as Michael :lol
mikealstott.gif

[Phillip]

It was a response to this:



Seriously? You said that MJ was INEFFICIENT. Does 28-30 ppg on 46-48% shooting scream INEFFICIENT to you? is it comparable to Lebron's 2011 or 2013 Finals? Heck no.

By 80's and MJs standards? Yes that was inefficient. Defense was generally nonexistent until the 90s. League average over the last 10 years has been around 44-45% In the 80s' league average was around 48% MJ was generally shooting over 53%. So by his standards, it was not particularly efficient at all, and a noticable drop in efficiency.


The difference between "The Jordan rules" and Lebron's 2011 Finals is that while Detroit took the rest of the Bulls out of the game, they never took Jordan out of the game, Lebron was taken out of games by having WIDE OPEN SHOTS.

Jordan had a noticeable drop in efficiency, froze his teammates out, and lost. Obviously the point went over your head, since you think I'm trying to compare Lebron's greatness to MJs, or comparing the Jordan Rules to Carlisles defensive strategy on Lebron, when my point was that a well prepared defensive strategy can cause problems that lead to a losing style of play for an opposing superstar scorer. The Pistons and Mavs had different approaches, but they both succeeded in their respective approaches, and caused the opposing superstar to look less than stellar, and play a style that led to their teams losing.


That's all I tried to say on like 3-4 different posts, where you called me out on "hating" on Lebron, while I was merely responding to YOUR post. You were trying to put Lebron on the same level as MJ, as if Lebron has ever been as big of a threat as Michael :lol

As I just stated, obviously you misunderstood my posts. Not a shocker, considering your clearly narrow-minded intellect. Not once was I trying to say Lebron =/> MJ.

[Phillip]

You can't blame Pip for failing to rang with Pete Myers as his SG. Getting to the ECF was a huge feat considering the supposed massive void MJ left. If you think Pip's leadership shouldn't be credited for that, we'll agree to disagree.

I never said Pippen shouldn't get credit for leadership. Just that there is no reason to believe he truly is a superior leader to LeBron, considering he never came close to the accomplishments that Lebron has.


And if that's your take, then Bron should be docked some points here. Yes, he rang twice, but... Battier saved his ass in '12, and Ray Allen did the same last year. Come to think about it, Bron mostly choked when they needed him in the clutch. Sure he was their best player (can't say that about Pip in either of his championship teams for obvious reasons), but if not for role players like Battier and Allen, he's an 0-timer. Sad because he was on a stacked team with 3 players that were top 10 at their position and great, savvy role players. They shouldn't have even been challenged - let along losing to your Mavs - and they definitely should have lost to the Spurs last year.

This is clearly a biased load of crap. Is Miami talented? Sure. Balanced? Not at all. Bosh and Wade may be good talents, but they don't compliment LeBron's skillsets particularly well. Not in the way that Pippen was able to compliment MJ, or that Kobe was able to compliment Shaq. In 2011, it was clearly evident that a well built team is better than an unbalanced but talented team. 2011 Mavs were about as balanced of a team that you will see. They were solid in basically every aspect of the game, while Miami had numerous glaring weaknesses that they were able to cover up with their talent, until they faced a more well built team in the Mavs.

I don't see why LeBron deserves blame for the fact that they are weak on the interior with no legit post threats both offensively and defensively. The fact that they still won back to back with such a massive weakness is amazing. There may not be another title team with as big of an interior weakness as Miami has had these past 2 years. If you want to dock Lebron points in one area, then he certainly deserves points in this area, for basically accomplishing something no one else has done before, in winning multiple championships without a quality post player. Even during MJ's runs, he had Cartwright and Longley, both of whom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel Anthony and Birdman.

You are what you are. Lebron won 2 championships, and made a LOT of clutch plays in his playoff career as well as during those title runs. He has been clutch in the playoffs far more often than not through his career.


For the record: Bron would have played 2nd fiddle to MJ - just like Pip did. And for shits and giggles, he would have played 2nd fiddle to a 24-year old, 315lb Shaq too. ;)

Both are very possible scenarios.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Philip, watch the original video I posted. That's all I ask from you.

[AchillesHeel]

I never said Pippen shouldn't get credit for leadership. Just that there is no reason to believe he truly is a superior leader to LeBron, considering he never came close to the accomplishments that Lebron has.



This is clearly a biased load of crap. Is Miami talented? Sure. Balanced? Not at all. Bosh and Wade may be good talents, but they don't compliment LeBron's skillsets particularly well. Not in the way that Pippen was able to compliment MJ, or that Kobe was able to compliment Shaq. In 2011, it was clearly evident that a well built team is better than an unbalanced but talented team. 2011 Mavs were about as balanced of a team that you will see. They were solid in basically every aspect of the game, while Miami had numerous glaring weaknesses that they were able to cover up with their talent, until they faced a more well built team in the Mavs.

I don't see why LeBron deserves blame for the fact that they are weak on the interior with no legit post threats both offensively and defensively. The fact that they still won back to back with such a massive weakness is amazing. There may not be another title team with as big of an interior weakness as Miami has had these past 2 years. If you want to dock Lebron points in one area, then he certainly deserves points in this area, for basically accomplishing something no one else has done before, in winning multiple championships without a quality post player. Even during MJ's runs, he had Cartwright and Longley, both of whom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel Anthony and Birdman.

You are what you are. Lebron won 2 championships, and made a LOT of clutch plays in his playoff career as well as during those title runs. He has been clutch in the playoffs far more often than not through his career.



Both are very possible scenarios.

The 2011 Finals weren't really about balance, they were about Lebron playing like shit while the rest of the team played fairly well. Lebron did recover in 2012 and he's earned his stripes as the best player in the game, so I agree with that. But you seem to disregard the numbers and the possessions Lebron was given. He wasn't triple teamed like Michael, more often than none Lebron was either in isolation against an old Shawn Marion or Jason Kidd, or he was getting wide open 3s from the top of the key while Wade was double teamed.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3kKxtSQa-4

look at that horrible sequence though, Kidd and Chandler double team Bron, Bosh is wide open and he passes to Haslem which leads to a TO :lol

But seriously the Mavs defense dared Lebron to shoot for the whole series, and his J was nowhere to be found.

Lebron's bread and butter is the drive and kick, Mavs took that away from him in the Finals and dared him to score from the perimeter, and he stunk it up, which ended in a Finals loss. Bosh also averaged more points in that series.

2011 Finals will forever be the shit stain on Lebron's career, whenever his legacy will be discussed, if he wins more rings, he can up his stock, but he's not in that Duncan/Shaq/Bird/Magic tier, he got to the Hakeem tier with his 2 rings.

[HarlemHeat37]

Not sure why Lebron's 2011 choke is being cited in a thread against Scottie Pippen, a career sidekick with limited offensive responsibilities throughout his career, tbh:lol..

As I've said many times, Lebron's 2011 will always hurt him from a career rankings standpoint, he certainly choked(albeit he was fatigued from carrying Miami's shitty cast all year) but ranking career accomplishments is played out, anyways..peak rankings are more relevant, and Lebron's 2012 and 2013 seasons are as good or better than any player in the history of the league..only Hakeem and Duncan have led a team in Points, Rebounds, Assists and either Steals/Blocks for an entire playoffs in a title run IIRC..amazing, tbh..

[hater]

although Lebron still has lots to prove. (he choked in 2013 too, except he was bailed out by Ginobili)

let's face it. Pippen = class A++ player. Lebron = among conversation of best 10 players ever.

[Hoops Czar]

although Lebron still has lots to prove. (he choked in 2013 too, except he was bailed out by Ginobili)

let's face it. Pippen = class A++ player. Lebron = among conversation of best 10 players ever.
Yeah, among the conversation, tbh.

[Clipper Nation]

:lmao changing the thread from being whether to build a team around Pippen or Lebron, into an "i hate lebron:cry:cry:cry he beat my spurs :cry :cry:cry" thread
Let's be real, it was always an "i hate lebron:cry:cry:cry he beat my spurs:cry:cry:cry" thread.... Just consider who the OP is - the same faggot who tried to claim that LeBron's the new T-Mac because he doesn't chuck the least efficient shot in basketball :lol

[Hoops Czar]

Let's be real, it was always an "i hate lebron:cry:cry:cry he beat my spurs:cry:cry:cry" thread.... Just consider who the OP is - the same faggot who tried to claim that LeBron's the new T-Mac because he doesn't chuck the least efficient shot in basketball :lol

Change your diapers CN. Nobody has to be worthwhile prognosticator to know the Clippers aren't winning an NBA championship anytime soon.

[Clipper Nation]

Btw, the 2011 argument is played out.... EVERYONE has playoff failures on their resumes, whether it's Jordan getting outscored by Craig Hodges and being used as a "decoy" against the Pistons, Kirby chucking his team out of the Finals in '04, Duncan missing that layup, etc.... haters still cling to 2011 because they don't want to face the reality of 2012 and 2013 :lol

[hater]

Btw, the 2011 argument is played out.... EVERYONE has playoff failures on their resumes, whether it's Jordan getting outscored by Craig Hodges and being used as a "decoy" against the Pistons, Kirby chucking his team out of the Finals in '04, Duncan missing that layup, etc.... haters still cling to 2011 because they don't want to face the reality of 2012 and 2013 :lol

how soon people forget. Lebron CHOKED in 2013. He was just bailed out by Ray Allen and Manu (and the rest of the Spurs) for that matter.

let's not forget Lebron was playing shitty and BTW he had 6 turnovers in that game 6. The ball bounces a different way and the media would be crucifying Lebron for being a career choker. Still like I said, he's top 10 in history.

[Phillip]

Not sure why Lebron's 2011 choke is being cited in a thread against Scottie Pippen, a career sidekick with limited offensive responsibilities throughout his career, tbh:lol..

yet these retards swear up and down they are sticking to the topic at hand and have no bias whatsoever in their arguments :rollin

[Phillip]

how soon people forget. Lebron CHOKED in 2013. He was just bailed out by Ray Allen and Manu (and the rest of the Spurs) for that matter.


lol bringing up a bad sequence right after Lebron singlehandedly got his team back into the game

lol forgetting game 7

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

lol bringing up a bad sequence right after Lebron singlehandedly got his team back into the game

lol forgetting game 7

HE DIDN'T FINISH.

HE. TURNED. IT. OVER. TWICE. IN. 50. SECONDS. AND. AIRBALLED. A. THREE. AND. MISSED. TWO. OTHER. THREES. HE. ALSO. HAD. PARKER. SPLASH. A STEPBACK THREE. IN. HIS. FACE.

Twist that.

[Phillip]

HE DIDN'T FINISH.

HE. TURNED. IT. OVER. TWICE. IN. 50. SECONDS. AND. AIRBALLED. A. THREE. AND. MISSED. TWO. OTHER. THREES. HE. ALSO. HAD. PARKER. SPLASH. A STEPBACK THREE. IN. HIS. FACE.

Twist that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1m85goKNag

tbh looks like he finished when it mattered the absolute most imo

[RsxPiimp]

Lebron is better and this coming from his biggest hater. No comparison. Pippen is definitely a better defender throughout his career considering that was his assignment but to be fair, Lebron IMO is much more capable of guarding players if he wants to lock down considering his athleticism, size and speed but he's a bit overrated in that part though just like most swing men who does the scoring for their team.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1m85goKNag

tbh looks like he finished when it mattered the absolute most imo
Would that have existed if Ray missed that three, tbh?

[Phillip]

Would that have existed if Ray missed that three, tbh?
Would Ray's 3 have existed if Lebron hadn't scored 16 points in the 4th quarter, to lead a massive comeback, along with a 3pt shot to cut the lead to 2 with under 30 seconds to go?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Would Ray's 3 have existed if Lebron hadn't scored 16 points in the 4th quarter, to lead a massive comeback, along with a 3pt shot to cut the lead to 2 with under 30 seconds to go?
Would that 3 have existed is he didn't miss that shot horribly and for Bosh to get the rebound? Or would he had to do that if he held on to the ball or played D on an injured Parker?

[Phillip]

Would that 3 have existed is he didn't miss that shot horribly and for Bosh to get the rebound? Or would he had to do that if he held on to the ball or played D on an injured Parker?

:lmao grasping at straws

:cry :cry :cry my spurs lost :cry :cry :cry

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

:lmao grasping at straws

:cry :cry :cry my spurs lost :cry :cry :cry

Lol you are delusional.

Get back to slurpin on LeBron's shit.

You're like a cumdumpster for James. Kinda sad considering Dirk HATES the Heat :lmao loyal fan tho

[Clipper Nation]

Kinda sad considering Dirk HATES the Heat :lmao loyal fan tho
By that logic, you should like LeBron, because Pop compliments him all the time and Duncan told him it was "his league now" after ringing in '07 :lol