Brazilians Demand Arrest Over Killing

[Cant_Be_Faded]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050725/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/bombings_brazil_5;_ylt=Ato0BVHP7sNnIItq5tO3mzW9Q5g v;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

By ALAN CLENDENNING, Associated Press Writer
Mon Jul 25, 6:25 PM ET



GONZAGA, Brazil - Hundreds of relatives and friends of a Brazilian shot to death in London after being mistaken for a terrorist marched along the cobblestone streets of his hometown Monday, demanding the arrest of the British police who fired the fatal shots.


Some of the protesters held banners denouncing British police as the real terrorists; other placards were adorned with snapshots of Jean Charles de Menezes, urging British Prime Minister Tony Blair to send his body home so it can be buried.

All said Blair's apology did not go far enough.

"Apologies don't help, we want justice," they chanted, stopping briefly to offer a prayer for the 27-year-old electrician who left Brazil to work in Britain so he could return home with enough savings to start a cattle ranch.

Menezes' killing has been the top story on radio and television broadcasts since Sunday, although there has been no large-scale public outcry.

In London, foreign Minister Celso Amorin said he had instructions from president Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva "to take firm measures to defend the interests of the family of a Brazilian who died in an absurd manner."

The militant Landless Rural Workers' Movement has scheduled protests Tuesday in front of the British Embassy in Brasilia and the consulate in Rio de Janeiro. The movement said in a statement that Menezes "was assassinated in cold blood, victim of intolerance" and called for the British withdrawal from Iraq.

Gonzaga's mayor, outraged over news Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, called the killing an "assassination."

"It's easy for Blair to apologize, but it doesn't mean very much," said Mayor Julio de Souza. "What happened to English justice and England, a place where police patrol unarmed?"

Many were angry that there is still no word on when the body might be shipped back to Gonzaga, a central Brazilian town of 6,000 where young men often head to the United States and Europe to finance a better life back home. Menezes was killed last Friday, and Brazilians traditionally bury their dead no later than 24 hours after a person dies.

"We don't want apologies, he's ours and he should be here," said Maria Jose Carvalho, who has two sons working in the United States.

Gov. Aecio Neves of Minas Gerais, the rural state where the electrician was born, said the government would pay to fly his body back to Brazil for burial.

Some of Menezes' cousins were upset that Blair's apology included a defense of British police, who he said were working under intense pressure to prevent more terrorist attacks.

"His apologies aren't easing our pain," said Arialva Pereira, one of the cousins. "He's not saying anything about punishing the police who did this, it's more like he's supporting them."

The march ended in front of the town hall, where the Brazilian flag hung at half staff in front of town hall and a large black sheet was hung from the second floor as a sign of mourning.

Menezes was killed in a London subway station as police investigated a wave of botched bombings the day before and the deadly transit bombings of July 7.

Witnesses said Menezes was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him dead.

While Menezes' relatives said he was working legally in Britain and had no reason to fear police, the British Broadcasting Corp. said Menezes' visa had expired, suggesting a reason for why he ran.

Souza said the root cause of Menezes' death was Blair's decision to back the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. That prompted the wave of terrorist attacks, the mayor said.

"Gonzaga has nothing to do with terrorism and now it's been hit," Souza said. "Jean could have come back here and become a father, but now we'll never have a chance to have him with us again."

Menezes, called "Jim" by English friends, was believed to have been on his way to repair an alarm when he was shot, according to a cousin in London, Alex Pereira.

The killing probably won't stop Gonzaga natives from going abroad, said Regiani Castro, a 25-year-old who started a farm supplies store after working in Massachusetts for five years.

"They'll be scared, but they'll keep on going because that's the only way to guarantee your future here," he said.



_______________________________________


Think this will go any further???

[Nbadan]

It might cause a few diplomatic ughs and awes between the Brazilians and the Brits, but I doubt if its going anywhere else than that. Menezes' relatives will be lucratively compensated and the Brit's will promise a post-mortem examination of their shot-first ask questions later policy in these cases, but really little will be done.

[jochhejaam]

Brazilians Demand Arrest Over Killing

There is no "arrest on demand" policy in London. There will be an investigation as there are with the friendly-fire killings that take place in times of war.

They were following the new terrorist policy and unfortunately for Menezes and family it had a tragic and unintended result.

It's a horrible way to advertise the terrorist policy to the people in London and because of this Menezes has become an unwitting martyr.

I believe the terrorists wont be so brazen in the future in London (witness the second group of bombers weren't suicidal and took off their backpacks and ran like the cowards they are) This tragedy has effectively trumpeted the manner in which suspected terrorists will be dealt with. Expect major modifications in the way people respond to the police and slight modifications to the terrorism policy itself, but overall it remain basically as it was. And rightly so.


There is no meeting of minds, no point of understanding with such terror. Just a choice: Defeat it or be defeated by it. And defeat it we must.
Tony Blair

[Clandestino]

their family shouldn't get money for their relative who evaded arrest..

[FromWayDowntown]

their family shouldn't get money for their relative who evaded arrest..

and we see on this morning's news that his attire wasn't all that suspicious for London in the summertime.

In reporting on the arrests made by London police today, standing outside Paddington Square station on a July afternoon, both the Fox News correspondent (David Lee Miller) and the MSNBC correspondent (James Hatori) are wearing heavy jackets. The bobbies standing behind them are also wearing jackets.

I guess it wouldn't be THAT unusual for someone to wear a coat that would seem heavy to an observer in July in London.

[smeagol]

their family shouldn't get money for their relative who evaded arrest..
:rolleyes

Have you stop to think this could have been a relative of yours?

Again, men with guns in civilian clothes start shouting at the guy. Running away does not seem that crazy. Getting killed for it, now that is crazy . . .

[Clandestino]

and we see on this morning's news that his attire wasn't all that suspicious for London in the summertime.

In reporting on the arrests made by London police today, standing outside Paddington Square station on a July afternoon, both the Fox News correspondent (David Lee Miller) and the MSNBC correspondent (James Hatori) are wearing heavy jackets. The bobbies standing behind them are also wearing jackets.

I guess it wouldn't be THAT unusual for someone to wear a coat that would seem heavy to an observer in July in London.

i never said anything about the coat... i was in england and wales for a month... weather sucks... coat is fine..

[Clandestino]

:rolleyes

Have you stop to think this could have been a relative of yours?

Again, men with guns in civilian clothes start shouting at the guy. Running away does not seem that crazy. Getting killed for it, now that is crazy . . .

how many people can outrun bullets? i can't.. i don't think you can either... if i'm ever told to stop by a man with a gun, i'll stop and give him all my money or pretty much whatever else he requests...

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, because everyone thinks and acts rationaly when men that are not obvious policeman pull guns on you in a foreign land. Especially when said person had just been attacked weeks prior.

[Clandestino]

Yes, because everyone thinks and acts rationaly when men that are not obvious policeman pull guns on you in a foreign land. Especially when said person had just been attacked weeks prior.

i guess next time he'll stop

[FromWayDowntown]

i never said anything about the coat... i was in england and wales for a month... weather sucks... coat is fine..

The point is this: the rationale for even stopping this guy in the first place was that he looked suspicious, mostly because he wore a heavy coat in the summertime.

If the police hadn't focused on his attire (and on his racial profile, which undoubtedly played a part in the pursuit), he never would have faced weapons because he never would have been asked to stop and never would have taken off running.

So, it makes a big difference that others wear heavy coats during a London summer afternoon.

[MannyIsGod]

Every fat brown person in London is now a possible police victim.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

The point is this: the rationale for even stopping this guy in the first place was that he looked suspicious, mostly because he wore a heavy coat in the summertime.

If the police hadn't focused on his attire (and on his racial profile, which undoubtedly played a part in the pursuit), he never would have faced weapons because he never would have been asked to stop and never would have taken off running.

So, it makes a big difference that others wear heavy coats during a London summer afternoon.
yes it makes a big difference! The difference is, now the coat doesn't mean shit! others had coats too, so in reality, racial profiling is what got him killed, not the fact that he had a coat.

[FromWayDowntown]

Every fat brown person in London is now a possible police victim.

As long as they're wearing a heavy coat in summertime, Manny, since nobody in London ever does that.

[Phil E.Buster]

Every fat brown person in London is now a possible police victim.

It's the same here in the US. All you need is to "look suspicious" and have brown skin and you could be in a shit load of trouble before you know it.

And spare me the, "If you are doing nothing wrong you don't have to worry" bullshit because once you've been "detained" and searched and interrogated only to be let go, the experience will be with you forever.

And believe me, the police will respond quicker to reports of a "suspicious hispanic, black, asian, arab or muslim man" qucker than reports of a suspicious caucasian male.

[Clandestino]

STOP POLICE!

easily understandable.. if he works in england, i am sure he understood those 2 words...

[Phil E.Buster]

STOP POLICE!

easily understandable.. if he works in england, i am sure he understood those 2 words...

Too bad the police didn't understand the meaning of the word "THINK".

[smeagol]

Too bad the police didn't understand the meaning of the word "THINK".
I'm sure they understand the phrase "Oh shit, I really FUCKED this one up!"

[violentkitten]

"I've seen these police officers shouting, 'Get down, get down!', and I've seen this guy who appears to have a bomb belt and wires coming out," witness Anthony Larkin told the British Broadcasting Corp.

Another passenger on the train, Mark Whitby, said the man didn't appear to be carrying anything but that his coat looked padded.

"They pushed him onto the floor and unloaded five shots into him," Whitby told the BBC. "He looked like a cornered fox. He looked petrified."


yeah, it's his fault that he was jumped by a group of cops in plainclothes and was shot 5 times. great fucking argument.

[MannyIsGod]

STOP POLICE!

easily understandable.. if he works in england, i am sure he understood those 2 words...
Yes, because everyone in plain clothes who claims to be a police officer is.

[Clandestino]

no matter who the fuck tells me to stop.. if they have a gun, i am stopping and doing as told..if not, you know what the fuck happens..

[MannyIsGod]

How many times have you been attacked in the subway? And since when are your reactions even pertinent to what a person should do and what should be expected from them?

[violentkitten]

they were yelling at him before they pulled their guns. you're in a foreign land, a group of individuals in regular clothes start yelling at you and coming at you. oh yeah, it's the cops.

[SWC Bonfire]

Yes, because everyone in plain clothes who claims to be a police officer is.

I am fairly sure that it is not up to bystanders to determine whether a policeman is a law enforcement official in the eyes of the law.

There are plenty of questions about this... IF they identified themselves as police, then that eliminates this argument.

[Clandestino]

How many times have you been attacked in the subway? And since when are your reactions even pertinent to what a person should do and what should be expected from them?

never with a gun, but have been confronted... the dude didn't realize the guys walking a few feet behind me were with me so when he found out he ran... if he had a gun, then we would have given all our money though.. i can assure you we wouldn't have ran...

[FromWayDowntown]

How many times have you been attacked in the subway? And since when are your reactions even pertinent to what a person should do and what should be expected from them?

Well, Clan is everyman. :)

Look, I can see Clandestino's point as an abstract proposition. But the reports surrounding this guy in London give some idea about why it is that he may have run. I read reports that he had been harassed by gangs and didn't speak much (if any) english. Assuming both of those things to be true, he could have very easily seen plain-clothesed police officers brandishing guns as a threat, didn't understand the instructions they were barking, and ran for the nearest public gathering to try to get away or at least seek protection. That, to me, is an understandable sequence of events. Now, is it what I, without ever having faced that guy's circumstances, would have done? No. But my situation isn't the same as that faced by every person. There are grey areas in life where circumstances change the calculus. This, it seems, was one of them.

[Clandestino]

he was an electrician in london! i can safely assume he understood, stop and police.. i lived overseas for a long time and visited many countries.. those were basic things you learned... especially, if you LIVED and WORKED there.

it is not like this guy was some tourist and had been there for one day. he had an apartment, he didn't get his bills in portuguese i'm sure.

[MannyIsGod]

You know, even before it got to this point, the police made so many mistakes that they are going to catch a lot of flak.

Not knowing the building was filled with 9 seperate apartments gets me. What the hell?

[Clandestino]

How many times have you been attacked in the subway? And since when are your reactions even pertinent to what a person should do and what should be expected from them?

and how many times have you been confronted with a gun and took off running?

[SWC Bonfire]

I was confronted by a group of guys in a Paris Metro station, but they were French and ran away (true story).:lol

Not real smart. I would have mopped the floor with 'em. I think they were planning to try to distract me with their confrontation then have someone pickpocket me from behind.

[MannyIsGod]

He knew English well enough that I have no doubt he understood what the police said. I doubt he believed them (obviously).

[Clandestino]

here is another thing.. ALL BRITISH cops need guns. i just heard on NPR that there are only 400 cops in all of britain trained to carry guns... this could have played a factor in their decision...

but it still doesn't justify him running..

[MannyIsGod]

and how many times have you been confronted with a gun and took off running?
Never with a gun. Did run away form a guy with a knife once.

But, I don't think his reaction is out of the realm of possibilities.

[MannyIsGod]

here is another thing.. ALL BRITISH cops need guns. i just heard on NPR that there are only 400 cops in all of britain trained to carry guns... this could have played a factor in their decision...

but it still doesn't justify him running..
:lmao

British cops shoot man in error, decide to arm entire force.

Only in Clan's world.

[MannyIsGod]

I can't wait to see the video tape.

What if the cops pulled out their guns once the man turned and ran and he never knew they even had guns?

[Clandestino]

I was confronted by a group of guys in a Paris Metro station, but they were French and ran away (true story).:lol

Not real smart. I would have mopped the floor with 'em. I think they were planning to try to distract me with their confrontation then have someone pickpocket me from behind.

haha.. in prague you had gypsies/whores feeling you up(saying "sex, sex, sex") trying to steal your wallet... it was cool..i'd put my wallet in my inside suit pocket and hold it against my body with my forearm while they felt EVERYONE looking for it! hahaha.. when they finally realized they couldn't get it, they left...

[Clandestino]

:lmao

British cops shoot man in error, decide to arm entire force.

Only in Clan's world.

i bet more cops will be trained..

[SWC Bonfire]

haha.. in prague you had gypsies/whores feeling you up(saying "sex, sex, sex") trying to steal your wallet... it was cool..i'd put my wallet in my inside suit pocket and hold it against my body with my forearm while they felt EVERYONE looking for it! hahaha.. when they finally realized they couldn't get it, they left...

Yes, moral of the story - don't keep your wallet in an obvious place!

Back to the guy running from people not known as police - there is a lot of property crime in Europe, but not much violent crime. It's not like he was on the streets of 1980's Detroit or something. Murder for your wallet isn't a common occurrance, nor is armed robbery for that matter.

[MannyIsGod]

I would imagine the cops carrying the weapons that shot the man did not just get them the morning of the incident. They already had training. What would training more cops to carry weapons accomplish?

[Vashner]

UK has VERY tight restrictions on firearms. The average Bobby only get's a stick and some cuffs.

The armed officers take a special class. It boils down to this.. did the officer fear for the safety of the people around him, himself and his fellow officers? Then yea he did the right thing.

Maybe the guy got scared.. that's his fault. Because you see they are USED to bobbies without guns in England...

Here SAPD has already had 9 shoots with 6 fatal. They all pack Glock 40 cal and a good amount also have M16 colt Law Enforcement model (semi automatic M4) in the trunk as well. And the occasional 12 guage (old faithfull).

I have Texas CHL myself and pack at least 2 handguns 24/7 .. most of the time a Sig Sauer with laser and some good ammo. But you have to do the use of force class to get the permit etc..

Also I have been in 3 handgun fights. I crapped my pants the 1st time haha.
Shot a guy in the hand once.. but those are other stories :)

[SWC Bonfire]

What'cha shoot 'em for? Snorin' too loud? :lol

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=Vashner].
Shot a guy in the hand once..QUOTE]

Do you live in the city where it's legal to try to shoot a doobie out of the hand of someone caught tokin?

[jochhejaam]

It's the same here in the US. All you need is to "look suspicious" and have brown skin and you could be in a shit load of trouble before you know it.

If you haven't done anything wrong why would you "look suspicious"?
If 80% of the crime is committed by a certain race they darn better be more suspicious of that race (and that doesn't translate into harrasment). I don't want my tax supported police force following people based on a quota, that's nuts! I have no problem with profiling, that's good police work. In the days of the Calif. gold rush I'm betting the miners mined in the areas where they were relatively certain there was gold. Police dogs are trained to follow a distinct scent otherwise they would be useless, that in essence is what the police are doing.




And believe me, the police will respond quicker to reports of a "suspicious hispanic, black, asian, arab or muslim man" qucker than reports of a suspicious caucasian male.

Believe you? Why? Because you say so? Stats please!