OT - Barkley vs Malone (Karl that is)

[skulls138]

We know who the number one power forward is, who's number two? At first I was thinking Barkley but now am leaning toward Malone.

[Johnsyounger]

No Bird?

[skulls138]

Bird is a small foward, Im talking power fowards. McHale could be in the discussion but playing with Bird kind of lessens his impact.

[SpurSwag]

Probably Malone. Had he been surrounded by a better supporting cast in his prime though it would be Garnett, dudes a scumbag but holy shit was he dominant

[Obstructed_View]

Put Stockton next to Barkley or Garnett their entire career and they score more points than Kareem.

[TXstbobcat]

I have to go with Barkley.

[james evans]

Probably Malone. Had he been surrounded by a better supporting cast in his prime though it would be Garnett, dudes a scumbag but holy shit was he dominant
i have always hated garnett's game. great player, but dude just was soft to me. 6'11, lengthy player that chose to shoot 18 footers his whole career. and don't give me this, "he's skinny" bullshit. it's easier to hit a 8-10 foot fadeaway than it is an 18 footer. besides, the nba got rid of hand checking a while ago. no excuse for his lanky ass not to be down deep on that block. also, david robinson was no bigger in mass than kg and he didn't spend a career shooting 18 footers.. that's the ONLY thing i hated about his game outside of him trying to bully people until they retaliated and he'd back off..

[SpurSwag]

i have always hated garnett's game. great player, but dude just was soft to me. 6'11, lengthy player that chose to shoot 18 footers his whole career. and don't give me this, "he's skinny" bullshit. it's easier to hit a 8-10 foot fadeaway than it is an 18 footer. besides, the nba got rid of hand checking a while ago. no excuse for his lanky ass not to be down deep on that block. also, david robinson was no bigger in mass than kg and he didn't spend a career shooting 18 footers.. that's the ONLY thing i hated about his game outside of him trying to bully people until they retaliated and he'd back off..

I can respect that opinion, but the dude was just such an animal defensively. He definitely didn't dominate down low like the typical dominant power forward but in his MVP season he was damn near unstoppable

[james evans]

yeah. he deserved mvp. also, in jordan's last all star game, in OT, he went to the paint every play when isiah thomas had vince carter holding him and slaughtered carter. that's the kg i would want on my team. not the kg that doesn't want the ball late or chooses to shoot 18 footers..

[Arcadian]

At peak performance, I'm going with 2004 Garnett.

[barbacoataco]

I would take Barkley over Malone or Garnett.

[Rogue]

We know who the No.1 all time PF is? you mean Dirk or Bird? Dirk and Bird both deserve to be mentioned before fatass chuck and Malone the thug, who belong in the class right below together with the likes of KG and C-Webb imho.

[chapnis]

Duncan
KG
Barkley
Malone
Dirk

[Blue Duck]

Sometimes i get the feeling that some of the posters here are a bit younger and their takes are therefore based on the era in which they came of age as fans. That is in no way intended as a slight towards anyone, it's natural. I became a huge NBA fan in the late eighties, and i have been ever since, but truthfully, there are very few stars, post Jordan era that could hold their own against the stars of the eighties and nineties, and that's especially true of bigs. For my money, Barkley was just amazing, versatile, tough, clutch, entertaining as hell, etc. He was, and always will be my all time favorite non-Spur( all my favs are current and former spurs cuz i suffer from an incurable case of homerism). Barkley just kicked ass, that is all there is to it.

[lefty]

Barkley because he was undersized compared to the others on that list
(and he was a fattie too)


His numbers were amazing; he could handle the ball, shoot 3's, was a great a passer, and muscled it up inside vs bigger men.
Not a great defensive player though

I also liked Larry Johnson before his injury

[Johnny RIngo]

Had he been surrounded by a better supporting cast in his prime though it would be Garnett, dudes a scumbag but holy shit was he dominant

So we should reward Garnett for carrying bad teams to the lottery or a low playoff seed? By that logic, we should crown Robinson the best center of all-time since he carried bad teams to a top playoff seed. Playoff performance counts too and Garnett's numbers always seemed to drop from regular season to post-season.

[Cry Havoc]

there are very few stars, post Jordan era that could hold their own against the stars of the eighties and nineties, and that's especially true of bigs.

Sometimes I get the feeling that old people remember things with rose tinted glasses and don't make accurate comparisons between older generations and younger because they refuse to believe that anything new is better.

Any team from the 80s except maybe the top 2-3 teams from each season would get absolutely slaughtered if they played in today's NBA. The League is by and large more athletic now than it's ever been at any point in it's history. Only the center position has eroded a bit, the other four positions are much better on average.

Most importantly, good teams play defense now for a full 48. Not for 5-10 minutes at the end of the game as was customary in the 80s.

[Drachen]

It all really depends on whose rules we are using, now doesn't it?

[Blue Duck]

Well, first of all, I'm not old, and secondly, i pride myself on objectivity. The truth is the argument about athletism is over stated, i see no difference between the super athletes of today, and Dominique Wilkens, Clyde Drexler, Shawn Kemp, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuan, kevin Johnson, Mitch Ricmond, etc, etc, etc, i can do this all day. I'm just saying, our perception is often based on timing. I truly believe that from top to bottom, the league was much tougher in those days, and as for PFs, Barkley thrived in those conditions. But, that said, I'll bet there is a guy older than me somewhere that could make a great argument for wes unseld, or Dave DeBusher and I'm sure they could make some excellent points. As far as the rose colored glasses go, music, movies, tv shows, clothes, sports and our still not quite socialist country, were all better in the 90s, dammit!!!!! Just kidding, kind of, Go Spurs.

[Obstructed_View]

Barkley checked guys bigger and more athletic than KG every other game.

[skulls138]

Put Stockton next to Barkley or Garnett their entire career and they score more points than Kareem.Maybe, but Im also thinking that Malone gets an unfair lack of respect because of being teamed with Stockton. Malone had the foresight to use Stockton to his advantage by getting himself open underneath for easy slams, something Im not sure Barkley would do, and is there anyone better at finishing?

One more point, I saw the Jazz play the Spurs at the Alamodome with both Duncan and Robinson where the Jazz beat them easily. Reason being is that Malone just medium jump shot them to death. It was as boring a game as youll ever see but Malone made it that way because he made all of his shots, something he never used to be able to do. This showed how much will he had, a trait that I think he really is better at than Barkley and Garnett

[Arcadian]

Shoutout to Bob Pettit

[Spur|n|Austin]

Barkley 100% imo

[james evans]

Sometimes I get the feeling that old people remember things with rose tinted glasses and don't make accurate comparisons between older generations and younger because they refuse to believe that anything new is better.

Any team from the 80s except maybe the top 2-3 teams from each season would get absolutely slaughtered if they played in today's NBA. The League is by and large more athletic now than it's ever been at any point in it's history. Only the center position has eroded a bit, the other four positions are much better on average.

Most importantly, good teams play defense now for a full 48. Not for 5-10 minutes at the end of the game as was customary in the 80s.
athleticism doesn't = greatness. there were tons of athletic athletes in the 80s and 90s. u now have rules implemented that make "superstars" impossible to stop. all kevin durant has to do is drive to the basket 10 times in the 4th quarter and he's shooting freethrows on 5 of those drives regardless of what happens. jordan's success was one of the worst things to happen to the nba, because when he retired, the league was looking for another "jordan" and trying to build up these wing players promoting them totally ignoring that from 99 to 2007, tim duncan and shaq played in every nba finals. there were too many athletic players in the 80s and 90s that aren't even discussed in nba circles. robert pack was never a superstar or top player but he was 6'2 and could jam that thing on anyone. darrel griffith. stacey augmon.. the list is endless. now i'm not saying these players were great, but having quickness and a 40 inch vertical leap doesn't mean you're a great player. in the 80s, you could handcheck(can't do that now). u could hit a player when he drives in with the body hard(that's a game suspension now). and u actually had CENTERS and power forwards that didn't shoot 3s for a living. back then, centers got dunked on, they didn't move out of the way because they were afraid to be on espn sportscenter. how often does lebron james dunk on centers? in the east u had the bucks(a very good team), celtics, pistons, and sixers. nique didn't have that much help on the hawks. in the west u had houston(before sampson's injuries took over), utah, lakers, portland(hit their stride in the late 80s), and the mavs. u really think the thunder would destroy the mavs of the 80s? and what would any frontline in the current nba do with hakeem and sampson with no handchecking? ibaka and perkins would foul out in the first quarter. haslem and bosh wouldn't have a prayer to help them.

[james evans]

Well, first of all, I'm not old, and secondly, i pride myself on objectivity. The truth is the argument about athletism is over stated, i see no difference between the super athletes of today, and Dominique Wilkens, Clyde Drexler, Shawn Kemp, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuan, kevin Johnson, Mitch Ricmond, etc, etc, etc, i can do this all day. I'm just saying, our perception is often based on timing. I truly believe that from top to bottom, the league was much tougher in those days, and as for PFs, Barkley thrived in those conditions. But, that said, I'll bet there is a guy older than me somewhere that could make a great argument for wes unseld, or Dave DeBusher and I'm sure they could make some excellent points. As far as the rose colored glasses go, music, movies, tv shows, clothes, sports and our still not quite socialist country, were all better in the 90s, dammit!!!!! Just kidding, kind of, Go Spurs.
not only that, u have a guy like bernard king(and i'm so happy he's finally getting his respect with the espn shows and hall of fame induction) that would lead the league in scoring without even shooting 3 pointers. for years i would talk to the college and high school kids about bernard king and they had to look him up on youtube hahah. more fundamentals back in the day. nowadays, everything is 3s and layups.the midrange shot is completely gone from the nba. that's why we were able to defeat the warriors last season in the playoffs. thompson and curry are so predictable. they would be damn near impossible if they shot more midrange, but hey, i hope they continue to jack up 3s and go for layups ignoring the midrings..

[lefty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyFVKd2Nw-s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDlvPQ5A7vc

[Blue Duck]

Wow, James Evans with the goods. Very high quality posts, sir. One of the greatest single game on court duels ever to play out was Nique vs Bird. Athlete vs non- athlete, yet highly competitive, and truly spectacular. And let us not forget, our favorite power forward came into this league lacking much of the athletics of his peers, yet continuously bested them all. Back to my original point though, these new guys got nothin on them old guys.

[skulls138]

Lets compare and contrast. Ill name a star of the 80's and then one from a player that played in another ten year span that would end today ('03 to '13) and lets see where we stand.

'80-'90 - '03-'13
Jordan - Duncan
Bird - Kobe
Magic - Lebron
Kareem - Shaq
Hakeem - Garnett
Barkley - Nowitzki
Moses
Dr J
I Thomas
K Malone
Stockton

I could add Parker, Ginobili for today's bunch or maybe Pierce but could also add players like Nique and Drexler and others back then.

But I think my list shows that there were alot more memorable players back in the 80's than today.

[Cry Havoc]

athleticism doesn't = greatness. there were tons of athletic athletes in the 80s and 90s.

Look. Blue duck brought up the athletes argument. You can't counter my argument without invalidating his. So unless you're going to read the post I was responding to, don't bother.


There were too many athletic players in the 80s and 90s that aren't even discussed in nba circles. robert pack was never a superstar or top player but he was 6'2 and could jam that thing on anyone. darrel griffith. stacey augmon.. the list is endless. now i'm not saying these players were great, but having quickness and a 40 inch vertical leap doesn't mean you're a great player.

So why are you bringing them up? Duck said there were better athletes in the 80s and 90s. I was countering his point. Not saying that better athletes = better players.


in the 80s, you could handcheck(can't do that now).

Right. Why do you think they IMPLEMENTED that rule? Because teams actually started to play defense. It started in the early 90s with the Pistons and progressed until the point where defenses were literally so good that we had the entire NBA averaging in the 80/90s for PPG. Maybe you remember that? Or do you think they changed the hand-checking rule for no reason at all?


u could hit a player when he drives in with the body hard(that's a game suspension now).

So let's clarify something here. Being an athlete doesn't make you a great player, but being able to hip check a player out of a game like a hockey player means you play basketball well? Mmkay. I was unaware that acting like a thug on a court means you are a more skilled player.


and u actually had CENTERS and power forwards that didn't shoot 3s for a living. back then, centers got dunked on, they didn't move out of the way because they were afraid to be on espn sportscenter.

I already stated that the center position has regressed. Don't belabor point I've conceded.


how often does lebron james dunk on centers?

Yeah, because his game is totally limited to dunks. :rolleyes


in the east u had the bucks(a very good team), celtics, pistons, and sixers. nique didn't have that much help on the hawks. in the west u had houston(before sampson's injuries took over), utah, lakers, portland(hit their stride in the late 80s), and the mavs. u really think the thunder would destroy the mavs of the 80s?

It's pointless to speculate on "who would beat who". I think in it's current state, if you injected a team from the 80s into the NBA they would get beat handily by most of the better teams in the league because of how much more the defense has evolved. The NBA is a more complete game now by a wide margin than it has been in the past. If this wasn't the case, teams would not be running highly complicated offenses.


and what would any frontline in the current nba do with hakeem and sampson with no handchecking? ibaka and perkins would foul out in the first quarter. haslem and bosh wouldn't have a prayer to help them.

Modern NBA guard oriented offenses would absolutely destroy defenses in the 80s. A team like the Spurs, Warriors, or Heat would lay waste to them. They would have easy buckets all over the court. If you want to apply the same rules, no center from the 80s would be able to stay in the game with their "hard nosed defense". Remember, teams COULD hand check in the 80s and still gave up 70 point halves with regularity.

[Cry Havoc]

Wow, James Evans with the goods. Very high quality posts, sir. One of the greatest single game on court duels ever to play out was Nique vs Bird. Athlete vs non- athlete, yet highly competitive, and truly spectacular. And let us not forget, our favorite power forward came into this league lacking much of the athletics of his peers, yet continuously bested them all. Back to my original point though, these new guys got nothin on them old guys.

I think it's pretty humorous how you guys talk about how Jordan destroyed the NBA because he made it so much more star oriented and then in the very next breath you want to compare individuals to see which era had the better teams. Contradicting yourself quite nicely.

[skulls138]

The 80's stars were popular because they earned it. After Jordan you have guys like Tracy McGrady, Vince Young, Carmelo, Wall, and a whole lot more who have come nowhere near a titled but cant stop admiring themselves.

[Cry Havoc]

The 80's stars were popular because they earned it. After Jordan you have guys like Tracy McGrady, Vince Young, Carmelo, Wall, and a whole lot more who have come nowhere near a titled but cant stop admiring themselves.

:lol :lol :lol

"The game was better in my day because I say so! These youngin's today didn't earn anything!"

:lol :lol :lol

[Cry Havoc]

The 80's stars were popular because they earned it. After Jordan you have guys like Tracy McGrady, Vince Young, Carmelo, Wall, and a whole lot more who have come nowhere near a titled but cant stop admiring themselves.

Btw, it's hilarious that you used a "well they didn't win any titles so they didn't earn anything"...

... In a "Barkley vs. Malone" thread.

:lol

[mathbzh]

Lets compare and contrast. Ill name a star of the 80's and then one from a player that played in another ten year span that would end today ('03 to '13) and lets see where we stand.

'80-'90 - '03-'13
Jordan - Duncan
Bird - Kobe
Magic - Lebron
Kareem - Shaq
Hakeem - Garnett
Barkley - Nowitzki
Moses
Dr J
I Thomas
K Malone
Stockton

I could add Parker, Ginobili for today's bunch or maybe Pierce but could also add players like Nique and Drexler and others back then.

But I think my list shows that there were alot more memorable players back in the 80's than today.

It is funny how you forget Durant or Paul. I don't know how they compare with the ones you talk about. But for sure they will be remembered as "memorable". Just like Nash, Kidd, Wade and a couple of other players.

[skulls138]

At Cry Havoc (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=7256). Laughter's good, relish in it.

[Kidd K]

Between just Barkley and Malone? I would go with Malone. The only way I'd consider Barkley would be if I was playing fantasy basketball. Malone is bigger, more athletic, less likely to be a cancer in the locker room and in the media, and imo was at least as good if not better on the court anyway.

I agree with the comment about how Barkley would have been better had he also been able to play with Stockton, but that assumes Barkley wouldn't fuck it up with his bad attitude which he was well known for. The charming, happy guy you see now is very different from how he acted when he was a player. Dude had a massively swelled head and let everyone know it.



We know who the No.1 all time PF is? you mean Dirk or Bird? Dirk and Bird both deserve to be mentioned before fatass chuck and Malone the thug, who belong in the class right below together with the likes of KG and C-Webb imho.

Tim Duncan is clearly the #1 all time PF. Not only is he the best PF with a large amount of rings (it doesn't hurt his case much that the supposed top 4 besides him all have only 0-1 rings), but he has some advanced statistical records people don't know about. He's #2 all time in defensive rating (used to be #1 until he got older), with only an obscure name who didn't play long being at #1. He's also #2 all time in defensive win shares behind only Bill Russell. So it isn't just about the basic stats you see. Reading between the lines, Duncan's impact has been much greater than that of a loud, flashy stat stuffer like Barkley. He does the things people don't really pay attention to as well, which is why he "somehow" always wins, while dudes like Barkley and KG struggled to at times no matter how good they were or their team was.

Bird was a SF btw, but even if you were to put them in the same category, I have Duncan above Bird on my all time list anyway. Only by a spot or two though, not way up. Bird's in my top 10.

[Blue Duck]

I don't know if I'm contradicting myself, but making such comparisons is what sports fans do. Why?? Cuz it's fun!!! So I'm going to play the game proposed by Mr. Skulls. For Moses Malone-D. Howard, J. Stockton-Steve Nash, Isaiah Thomas- Steph Curry. Although he didn't truly play in the 10 year span proposed by Skulls, i think the perfect counterpart to Isaiah would have been Allen Iverson. That duel would have been " must see" TV.

[Cry Havoc]

I don't know if I'm contradicting myself, but making such comparisons is what sports fans do. Why?? Cuz it's fun!!! So I'm going to play the game proposed by Mr. Skulls. For Moses Malone-D. Howard, J. Stockton-Steve Nash, Isaiah Thomas- Steph Curry. Although he didn't truly play in the 10 year span proposed by Skulls, i think the perfect counterpart to Isaiah would have been Allen Iverson. That duel would have been " must see" TV.

"Man Jordan just RUINED the NBA, he made everyone compare individual players to see who was better instead of focusing on the team."

"Hey look the 80s had better stars than modern day, watch I'll compare them."

[Blue Duck]

Ok, ok Mr. Havoc. I concede. But like i said, the debate is just for fun. It's kinda like playing NBAY2K when you get to play the 92 dream team against the 2013 Heat, or the old school spurs vs the new spurs. Just interesting debate fodder for b-ball junkies, nothing more.