Kawhi is officially the 5th best SF in the NBA

[hater]

TRUTH

:toast

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. George
4. Melo
5. Kawhi


too bad Kawhi won't make the Allstar game in the STACKED West :cry :cry

[apalisoc_9]

Imagine the spurs dominating the league before All-star but with only Tony Parker as our All-star Player. Tim is having a rough start and I expect him to bounce back, but it's more than likely going to be after the break.

[AntiChrist]

Well, top 10 for sure.

[Robz4000]

I'd take Leonard over Melo tbh.

[cd021]

I'd take Leonard over Melo tbh.

I wouldn't. He's a great young player. But Melo is a pure scorer and an very good rebounder. Obviously Leonard is a better player in the Spurs system.

[Robz4000]

I wouldn't. He's a great young player. But Melo is a pure scorer and an very good rebounder. Obviously Leonard is a better player in the Spurs system.

Melo is also a chucker, plays little D, and an all-around cancer...

[cd021]

Deng and Batum are probably as good if not better than Leonard is.

[Darius McCrary]

Fatmelo is a disgrace to basketball at this point tbh

[cd021]

Melo is also a chucker, plays little D, and an all-around cancer...

talent to talent Leonard sits at the little kids table. Melo is a career 45% shooter on 25ppg. That isn't a bad percentage at all. He wanted out of Denver. Players do that all of the time I wouldn't classify him as a bad locker-room guy because of it.

[chapnis]

Igoudala tbh.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Deng is definitely better than KL, I'd take Batum and Iggy over him too, Kl still needs a lot of 1 on 1 skills and if you would take Kl over Melo you are absolutely crazy

[TheyCallMePro]

People are being too quick anointing Paul George. Outside of the playoffs last year he's been very mediocre. I know he's off to a fast start too this year but still. I'd take Kawhi's career body of work over Paul George's any day.

That said, Kawhi still has a lot to prove. In the Spurs system he's not asked to do half the things the other guys on this list have to do. Hate to say it, but Kawhi is probably the worst shooter/ball handler of the elite SF's in the league. He's probably just as good if not better than Paul George, but he's half as confident with the ball in his hands.

I don't know if it's even fair to put him this high considering his workload in comparison to some of these guys. It just doesn't sound right putting him next to players who avg twice as many points as he does and play 10-15 more minutes each game. I know everyone likes to speculate that Kawhi would be just as great somewhere else and put up big numbers like these other guys, but I think the Spurs system has been a tremendous benefit to raising his profile. I don't think Kawhi would ever be comfortable being 'the guy' like these other guys are night in and night out.

[Chinook]

Actually, I could totally see Kawhi making the All-Star game. Unlike all the other Spurs, Leonard is overrated by the national media. If he can put together a really good month or so, I think he'll make it as a reserve.

[Biernutz]

Here is the link to the All-Stars Voting . Now vote!

http://allstarballot.nba.com/?referrer=asb14_searchbar&cid=asb14_searchbar

[Brunodf]

Deng is definitely better than KL, I'd take Batum and Iggy over him too, Kl still needs a lot of 1 on 1 skills and if you would take Kl over Melo you are absolutely crazy
:rollin

[ezau]

Deng is definitely better than KL, I'd take Batum and Iggy over him too, Kl still needs a lot of 1 on 1 skills and if you would take Kl over Melo you are absolutely crazy

Lol rating Deng over KL:lol

[chapnis]

Actually, I could totally see Kawhi making the All-Star game. Unlike all the other Spurs, Leonard is overrated by the national media. If he can put together a really good month or so, I think he'll make it as a reserve.

Coaches pick the reserves I think.

[PlayNando]

Where's Iguodala, tbh?

[Cry Havoc]

Deng is definitely better than KL, I'd take Batum and Iggy over him too, Kl still needs a lot of 1 on 1 skills and if you would take Kl over Melo you are absolutely crazy

You must not enjoy much defense. KL is an elite defender. That counts for a lot.

[Chinook]

Coaches pick the reserves I think.

They do, but they go of the media more than people realize. Add to that Pop calling Leonarda star, and I think coaches like him. The George comparisons can only help Leonard too.

[hater]

IMO Kawhi is better defender than both Batum and Igoudala so that takes him over the top of them fairly easily

I guess Deng has been balling last few games and can lock in on D pretty good too. But tonight's game Kawhi was a monsta

[Brazil]

Melo is also a chucker, plays little D, and an all-around cancer...

yeah I wouldn't trade RJ for Melo tbh

[timmy2003]

People are being too quick anointing Paul George. Outside of the playoffs last year he's been very mediocre. I know he's off to a fast start too this year but still. I'd take Kawhi's career body of work over Paul George's any day.

That said, Kawhi still has a lot to prove. In the Spurs system he's not asked to do half the things the other guys on this list have to do. Hate to say it, but Kawhi is probably the worst shooter/ball handler of the elite SF's in the league. He's probably just as good if not better than Paul George, but he's half as confident with the ball in his hands.

I don't know if it's even fair to put him this high considering his workload in comparison to some of these guys. It just doesn't sound right putting him next to players who avg twice as many points as he does and play 10-15 more minutes each game. I know everyone likes to speculate that Kawhi would be just as great somewhere else and put up big numbers like these other guys, but I think the Spurs system has been a tremendous benefit to raising his profile. I don't think Kawhi would ever be comfortable being 'the guy' like these other guys are night in and night out.
Very insightful analysis

[Raven]

there's at least 10sf better than melo.

[apalisoc_9]

Now that I think about, Coaches will probably be pressured to pick another San Antonio Player if Duncan continue to struggle..Right now, Kawhi is the team's second best player...

[exstatic]

Deng and Batum are probably as good if not better than Leonard is.

Batum has the Diaw passivity disease, and is now cheap shotting players. Deng is a defensive force, but is on that same pile of players as Gerald Wallace, never really developing much more than a serviceable jumper as a weapon.

[wildchild]

KL is an elite defender.
And the Man of the Steal
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2689961/BLZjMMPCYAIgkyq.jpg
@dav_mcg

5 vs Celtics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HStBPahoyZ4&feature=youtu.be

[SupremeGuy]

I'd take Leonard over Melo tbh.Same here.

[ThaBigFundamental21]

LMAO, stop. Melo is better than Leonard, you all know that. BTW, Melo is better than George too. WTF are you guys talking about? Iggy is also better than Leonard. Leonard is good, he is young too. He has work to do before you can say he is better than all of these players.

[313]

LMAO, stop. Melo is better than Leonard, you all know that. BTW, Melo is better than George too. WTF are you guys talking about? Iggy is also better than Leonard. Leonard is good, he is young too. He has work to do before you can say he is better than all of these players.

[will_spurs]

Here is why Melo sucks, from the horse's mouth.

403346952525328384

[Mikeanaro]

Melo is also a chucker, plays little D, and an all-around cancer...

Agree!

[Drom John]

This season by Hollinger's VA, Leonard is tied for 9th best SF.
James
Durant
George
Anthony
Igoudala
Parsons
Turner
Gay
Batum
Leonard

By WS Leonard is 7th.
James
Durant
George
Igoudala
Parsons
Deng
Leonard

[Buddy Mignon]

You guys are so desperate.

AK47
Chandler
Parsons
Harrison Barnes
Pierce
Josh Smith
Deng
Iggy
Gay
Batum
Dick
Battier


And a host of other players are better than that retard Kiwi.

[will_spurs]

You guys are so desperate.

AK47

:lmao

[hater]

LMAO, stop. Melo is better than Leonard, you all know that. BTW, Melo is better than George too. WTF are you guys talking about? Iggy is also better than Leonard. Leonard is good, he is young too. He has work to do before you can say he is better than all of these players.

I agree Melo is better than Kawhi just because he's a far superior offensive player. But I put George over Melo easily.

otherwise, provide video evidence that Melo has ever played defense

[AztecSpur]

I imagine it's KL's 10 point burst that spurred this post. The way we'd like him to shoot all the time.

So what did Pop say to KL before the start of the 2nd half and again when he came back to the bench after that 10 point burst? The announcers were talking about it, but didn't know what he said of course. I imagine it was somehting like "It's your time to step it up". Maybe because TP was hurting?...just guessing.

[Prime Time]

Leonard gets so much mixed reception on ST.

Some people act like he's a top forward

Others act like he's a scrub

smh. My opinion is he has all the tools to be a top forward and has shown such ability in the past when the big 3 were out, but I won't call him an All-Star until he consistently performs like one. So basically, I see him as a butterfly trapped in it's cocoon.

Also, Carmelo Anthony is a joke to basketball. He'll make any team worse, ANY team. Even the freaking Jazz. I'd imagine most Knicks fans LOVE the idea of trading Melo for Leonard straight up. He's nothing but a stat padder, someone who shoots 20 attempts at .416%. I can't go on enough about how much I dislike Carmelo Anthony.

[Spur|n|Austin]

I wouldn't. He's a great young player. But Melo is a pure scorer and an very good rebounder. Obviously Leonard is a better player in the Spurs system.

Give me KL over Melo any day of the week.

[Darkwaters]

:depressed Still can't believe we traded Paul George for him though...

[mclinejr]

Imagine the spurs dominating the league before All-star but with only Tony Parker as our All-star Player. Tim is having a rough start and I expect him to bounce back, but it's more than likely going to be after the break.

You seriously need to make up your mind about Tim Duncan.

[MR-Clutch]

I'd take Leonard over Melo tbh.
This. Melos style of playing will never lead his team through a deep playoff run. While kawh's offense is still developing, he's a team player and worlds ahead of melo on the defensive end.

[MR-Clutch]

Also if were factoring in potential, then I definitely would put kawhi in the top 5 and over Melo. I think guys like Iggy, Deng, and Batum are who they are, and have little room for improvement, while Leonard is still scratching the surface.

[Horse]

I get so tired of one-way players getting so much praise. Fuck melo he will never win cause he's a selfish prick.

[hater]

I get so tired of one-way players getting so much praise. Fuck melo he will never win cause he's a selfish prick.

don't get me wrong for the money Melo commands and the lack of D I would stay away from him and would take Kawhi over him anyday.

but I are talking basketball skill wise. melo is superior just because of his amazing Offensive game

[Chinook]

This. Melos style of playing will never lead his team through a deep playoff run. While kawh's offense is still developing, he's a team player and worlds ahead of melo on the defensive end.

Lol. A Memo-led team makes the playoffs annually. A Leonard-led team is in the lottery. There's no debate who can carry a team better. And that's coming from a guy who considers Anthony to be the dark cloud hanging over the Knicks.

[jesterbobman]

It's a top 3 then a chasm at this point.

Iggy, Deng, Batum, Melo, Kawhi are all somewhere in the race for fourth. By xRAPM for 2012/13(http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html)
Iggy(+4.1)
Deng(+1.4)
Batum(+0.9)
Carmelo(+2.3)
Kawhi(+1.5)

RAPM tends to have a negative bias towards young players, as the incoming assumption is that they will be bad(as most rookies are) and xRAPM uses more than 1 year of data.(Which is part of how Gerald Wallace ends up as a Giant +)

Given that, and assuming growth for Kawhi and some for Batum(Still fairly young)
Iggy
Kawhi ~ Melo
Deng ~ Batum

Healthy Danilo Gallinari is probably up there as well.

[will_spurs]

A Memo-led team makes the playoffs annually.

That's good enough for the Knicks. Not good enough for the Spurs, though.

[Chinook]

That's good enough for the Knicks. Not good enough for the Spurs, though.

Of course it's not, which is why Leonard should NOT be considered the next face of the Spurs. At best, the Spurs would be like the pre-Rose Bulls or the Iggy Sixers. Only in the West, there wouldn't be easy playoff seeds to get.

[Hoops Czar]

If Leonard doesn't start to show consistency on both sides of the ball, and the Spurs give him a max deal, it would be like paying for an over priced Shawn Marion. He needs to stop settling for outside jump shot and he needs to get into the lane and create. His numbers look decent on paper, but offensively, he's a product of the Spurs system. When players start to retire and get older, Kawhi will have take on more responsibility and to this point, I haven't seen enough from him on the offensive end to think he's the slightest bit capable of carrying the Spurs. He's still young and developing so that could change.

[will_spurs]

Of course it's not, which is why Leonard should NOT be considered the next face of the Spurs. At best, the Spurs would be like the pre-Rose Bulls or the Iggy Sixers. Only in the West, there wouldn't be easy playoff seeds to get.

You seem to have missed my point. Saying a Melo-led team is playoff bound ignores the fact that it's actually bound for a 1st round exit. When the going gets tough, Melo comes up empty, time and again.

[Chinook]

You seem to have missed my point. Saying a Melo-led team is playoff bound ignores the fact that it's actually bound for a 1st round exit. When the going gets tough, Melo comes up empty, time and again.

No. You keep ignoring the fact that I understand that (I make that argument a lot in the NBA forum) and think Leonard is not even that good. That's the whole point. Melo gets his teams to the playoffs even though I believe strongly that he's holding them back. I don't think Leonard could even do that as the best player on his team.

[will_spurs]

First of all I rarely if ever go downstairs. Second, that's not Leonard's role and that doesn't mean he isn't better for the Spurs. The Spurs will have a lot more success with Leonard at the 3 than they would ever have had with Melo. So it doesn't matter if Melo is supposed to be better in a vacuum. Put Melo on last year's Spurs and we don't even sniff the Finals.

[Baam]

You seem to have missed my point. Saying a Melo-led team is playoff bound ignores the fact that it's actually bound for a 1st round exit. When the going gets tough, Melo comes up empty, time and again.

People said the same thing about Lebron before he joined the superteam, Melo is leading a team of scrubs and TOSBs tbh...

[will_spurs]

People said the same thing about Lebron before he joined the superteam, Melo is leading a team of scrubs and TOSBs tbh...

Lebron brought a team of nobodies to the Finals. I don't even know how you can compare Lebron with Melo with a straight face. And Melo had talent with him at times: it didn't change one thing because he was still taking contesting shots instead of passing to the open man, and he was still being a black hole on D. If Melo was playing for OKC he'd be taking 3x as many shots as Durant.

[GB20]

If Leonard doesn't start to show consistency on both sides of the ball, and the Spurs give him a max deal, it would be like paying for an over priced Shawn Marion. He needs to stop settling for outside jump shot and he needs to get into the lane and create. His numbers look decent on paper, but offensively, he's a product of the Spurs system. When players start to retire and get older, Kawhi will have take on more responsibility and to this point, I haven't seen enough from him on the offensive end to think he's the slightest bit capable of carrying the Spurs. He's still young and developing so that could change.
when you have tony, manu and timmy is hard for leonard to show his offense. last year pop gave the big three the night off against chicago and loenard carried the team by himself.

[GB20]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SXemx5E9t20
this is the game i was saying when pop gave the big three the night off last year

[cjw]

Lol. A Memo-led team makes the playoffs annually. A Leonard-led team is in the lottery. There's no debate who can carry a team better. And that's coming from a guy who considers Anthony to be the dark cloud hanging over the Knicks.

All else being equal and assuming there are no offensive pieces around them, you're 100% right. Kawhi has room to develop whereas Melo is who he is. But let's also not forget that Melo wasn't alone in any of those situations. We see how he's doing now as an alpha dog without Chandler.

[timmy2003]

At this stage, you can't compare Kawhi to those star SFs. While Kawhi is a heck of rebounder and defender, his contribution on the offensive end is still minimal.

[Obstructed_View]

:lol Melo

[Chinook]

First of all I rarely if ever go downstairs. Second, that's not Leonard's role and that doesn't mean he isn't better for the Spurs. The Spurs will have a lot more success with Leonard at the 3 than they would ever have had with Melo. So it doesn't matter if Melo is supposed to be better in a vacuum. Put Melo on last year's Spurs and we don't even sniff the Finals.

I disagree. I think the Spurs beat the Heat in the Finals easily by replacing Leonard with Melo. As much as people hype Leonard for his Game Seven, Anthony would have gone for 50 with Miller on him. And before you try to say he'd give up more on the other end, I'd recommend that you watch the Heat/Knicks games from last year. He did a fine job on both ends with a good anchor behind him and good ball-movement.

Anyway, don't move the goalposts. This thread is about who's the better SF not who fits better with the Spurs. That's like saying Green is better than Harden because Danny fits in better with the Spurs' system.

[rasuo214]

I disagree. I think the Spurs beat the Heat in the Finals easily by replacing Leonard with Melo. As much as people hype Leonard for his Game Seven, Anthony would have gone for 50 with Miller on him. And before you try to say he'd give up more on the other end, I'd recommend that you watch the Heat/Knicks games from last year. He did a fine job on both ends with a good anchor behind him and good ball-movement.

Anyway, don't move the goalposts. This thread is about who's the better SF not who fits better with the Spurs. That's like saying Green is better than Harden because Danny fits in better with the Spurs' system.

I doubt the Spurs even make it to the Finals with Melo. Who would play defense against GS? Also by Melo taking 20+ shots a game it takes everyone else out of the game, it's like TP hero mode on steroids.

I'm pretty sure Kawhi could average 20+ ppg if he took twice as many shots.


Who do you consider to be the top 5 PGs? Is Westbrook or Irving in that top 5? Why or why not.

[JuegaBonito]

I love Kawhi, but I think you have not watched many pacers game. You realize Paul George is not only the Pacers top scorer/ offensive threat but he also is matched up against the teams best wing night in and night out. Kawhi takes the tough defensive assignments nightly but he hardly has the pressure of being the teams No. 1. offensive option. Paul George has proven he can take the role of a superstar on both ends of the floor. Maybe Leonard can get there in the near future. However to say you would "take Kawhi's career body of work over Paul George's any day", seems very biased.

[Chinook]

First, Anthony is ball dominating but he's not horribly inefficient. In the Spurs system and with two other stars, I doubt Melo would stall the offense as much as some think he would.

To your other question, I don't know. Probably Parker, Paul, Russ, Conley and Wall out of healthy ones.

[spurraider21]

i'd rather have kawhi on my team than Melo because Melo is going to eat about 40% of my salary cap and is going to be cancerous

[JuegaBonito]

You know I'm going to defend Melo here. Even if the guy played at a Lebron James level they wouldn't win anything. It is hardly his fault that Amare's decline was so sudden and steep. The Knicks invested max money in Amare and he has produced like a 7th or 8th man. Anthony is taking a lot of heat, but his play is hardly the reasons New York is in the gutter. Also why do you consider this man cancerous? I'm not a fan of his style of play, but he has hardly said or done anything which i would interpret as cancerous. He doesn't defend well and doesn't create well for others. These are inefficiencies in his game which of course it would have been nice to see him improve on over the past 10 seasons. However he is hardly cancerous, has proven to be a very dangerous player and one of the top scorers the past decade. I want to make a comparison to the Iverson led sixers team which made the finals. Iverson of course was a scorer and had inefficiencies in other aspects of his game. However the sixers surrounded him with blue collar guys, like Eric Snow, Aaron Mckie(spelling), Mutumbo, George Lynch and so on. Guys who would defend, rebound and didn't need the ball in their hands to be effective. If the Knicks truly believe Melo is their guy then build that kind of team around him, with guys who don't need the ball.

[rasuo214]

Don't even mention Lebron with Melo. Melo wishes he was as efficient on offense as Lebron is. Then you could make a solid case for Melo as a top 5 SF.

As is, Melo is an inefficient scorer, above average rebounder, awful defender, average passer.

I mean people gave Lebron shit throughout his career for his 3P shooting yet he has a higher career 3p% than Melo, the guy who is supposed to be a great offensive player.

[moisaenz]

this just turned into melo bashing..

[hyhy]

Best players in NBA has always been defined as who chucks the most shots and make the most contested jumpers. Nobody cares if you score an open jump shot.
Thats why players like paul george and melo has been ranked above kawhi leonard.

[SpurSwag]

I will support Kawhi to the death but it's just ridiculous to claim he is better than or quite frankly even on the same level as Paul George. Paul George has a legitimate MVP discussion right now (agree with it or not, he does) and that's something that I highly doubt Kawhi would be capable of. George has a much higher ceiling than Kawhi, but in no way should that be looked at as Kawhi bashing. It's more of a compliment to how great George's potential is tbh

[BillMc]

don't get me wrong for the money Melo commands and the lack of D I would stay away from him and would take Kawhi over him anyday.

but I are talking basketball skill wise. melo is superior just because of his amazing Offensive game

Yes, this. Melo's O is so much better than Leonard's. But I agree spending the money on Melo in our system would be a huge waste. Watching him screw up defensive rotations and stop ball rotations on O, he'd actually be a terrible Spurs player. Leonard is what we want, and even on his next contract, he'll be close to half the price. But on teams with the "just get out of the way and let the best offensive player shoot" Melo would be a better fit than Kawhi. He's more comfortable with the ball in his hands.

The team system matters a lot in comparing the two. Imagine Leonard on a D'Antoni team. "Hey Coach Mike where do you want me to rotate on this defensive set?" Mike: "Um, somewhere, you know wherever you want. It's cool."

But Anthony would be down with that, more energy for his offense, and look how well that worked when D'Antoni coached Melo in New York.

[Drom John]

Two games later since my last post.
Leonard has breaking a tie and climbing two more spots to 7th in Hollinger's more offense based VA, passing Batum, Gay and Turner.
James
Durant
George
Anthony
Parsons
Iguodala
Leonard

By my preferred WS, Leonard in 5th, passing Deng and Parsons.
James
George
Durant
Iguodala
Leonard

[romsey31]

:depressed Still can't believe we traded Paul George for him though...

When did you have PG?

[Darkwaters]

When did you have PG?

That's a funny story. Read this thread for details: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214888&highlight=paul+george

[K-State Spur]

Deng & Batum?

Deng's a remarkably consistent player who is somewhat better than stats say because of the plus defense he provides. But he's still just a 15.8 career PER.

Compare that to Kawhi - 16.8 both of his first two seasons and he'll be over 20 this year if/when his 3 point shot regresses to the mean (right now it's only 28% vs. 37% the past two years). And Leonard provides elite level defense.

While I'd take Batum on my team any day, he really shouldn't even be in this conversation. Long on athletic ability and flashes of stardom, short on actual top level production (despite playing for a team that needed him to play like a star in recent seasons).

[313]

Lol @ homers saying that kawhi is better than melo or pg. Or even Deng.

Tbh if melo came to SA I'm pretty sure he could get converted into the San Antonio system and still score just not every night

[hater]

Tbh if melo came to SA I'm pretty sure he could get converted into the San Antonio system and still score just not every night

unfortunately history does not agree with you. Melo has never played a lick of defense, ever. how in the world would joining the Spurs change that in any way? it wouln't

I would only take melo on the team as a 6th man (instant offense) and for the vet min

[313]

unfortunately history does not agree with you. Melo has never played a lick of defense, ever. how in the world would joining the Spurs change that in any way? it wouln't

I would only take melo on the team as a 6th man (instant offense) and for the vet minI didn't really mean on the defensive end, but on the offensive end, and not being a ball stopper. But yeah, his defensive woes will follow him anywhere he goes.

[Captivus]

i'd rather have kawhi on my team than Melo because Melo is going to eat about 40% of my salary cap and is going to be cancerous

This.
You cant compare players only taking into account how they play. Salary has to be included.
Although I do think Melo could be a killer in the Spurs (better than KL), the salary is a huge problem.

So, we get Melo but have to loose someone...who? Duncan? Parker? Gino?
Ill take the current Spurs than the Spurs with Melo but without KL and a big 3...or Tiago...and probably another player also, depending on the salary.