Job Application Assistance

[pseudofan]

Okay,

Someone I know was fired a while back (she thinks). It was kind of one of those, "oh yeah, you can't fire me because I quit!" things.

Anyway, now she is filling out an application for a job and doesn't really know what to put for why she left her last employer.

They just didn't get along. They fought like siblings and the boss was very difficult to work for.

So I told her she should put something like ..... they had professional differences, but I know that's not the best phrase.

Any of you have a more suitable phrase she can use? Keep in mind that she really doesn't know if she was terminated or if she left...... :rolleyes

Your prompt assistance is appreciated! Thanks!

[batman2883]

She decided to leave the company for a more lucrative oppurtunity. Besides if they ask her previous employer how it was there, its against the law for them to say she got fired.

[mookie2001]

just put that you quit because you didnt like the job

[Shelly]

why is against the law to say someone was fired?

[ObiwanGinobili]

"Lack of advancement oppurtunity"

[SWC Bonfire]

The fact of the matter is that you quit. If you received some sort of severance, then they fired you. Do not evade this topic, but elaborate on this only when asked direct questions in interviews.

[Kori Ellis]

Besides if they ask her previous employer how it was there, its against the law for them to say she got fired.

No it's not. If she gives the company consent to contact her former employers, the former employers can say whatever they want.

Lorie - on the application she should just say "Mutual Agreement". If they question her the interview about details, she can elaborate if she chooses to do so.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

why is against the law to say someone was fired?

I have ALWAYS wondered about that. I've heard many different things.

When I worked for the YMCA, we would simply ask if the person was "eligible for re-hire" as it would tell us if they were apt to quit qithout giving notice as well as if they were fired.

[pseudofan]

I like the lack of advancement opportunity.... so far.

The "a more lucrative opportunity" thing is not going to work since being UNEMPLOYED is not mor lucrative than having a job that sucks but still pays.... :LOL

Thanks! Keep em comin'!

[Shelly]

No it's not. If she gives the company consent to contact her former employers, the former employers can say whatever they want.

Lorie - on the application she should just say "Mutual Agreement". If they question her the interview about details, she can elaborate if she chooses to do so.


That's what I thought. Why would a previous employer lie?

[Useruser666]

why is against the law to say someone was fired?

Don't know if it's a state law or what, but an employer can only confirm that you worked there and for how long. Anything else is confidential unless the employee gives the past employer permission or something along those lines.

[pseudofan]

No it's not. If she gives the company consent to contact her former employers, the former employers can say whatever they want.

Lorie - on the application she should just say "Mutual Agreement". If they question her the interview about details, she can elaborate if she chooses to do so.


I like that too. The thing is, that sometimes she can be too honest and then she's going to come out looking like she's trashing her previous employer, which no potential employer likes to hear.....

I hope she gets a job soon, she's a really good worker but isn't very good at office politics.

[Kori Ellis]

Anything else is confidential unless the employee gives the past employer permission or something along those lines.

When you fill out a job application, you sign on the bottom that you are willing to let them contact your former employers. If the prospective employers CALLS the former employers, they can only confirm that you worked there, dates of employment, and eligibility for rehire. If the prospective employers WRITES the former employers with a copy of the signature of consent from the employee included, then the former employer can answer whatever questions the prospective employer asks, including things about the employees work habits, attitude, and yes - if they were terminated.

[Shelly]

Kori, maybe it's a Texas thing.

Because I get stuff from the EDD all the time to verify that laid off employees aren't cheating them out of unemployement and the form asks for reason for separation.

[ShoogarBear]

"couldn't make pie"

[pseudofan]

"couldn't make pie"


Oh, a funny guy.... :lol

[batman2883]

Don't know if it's a state law or what, but an employer can only confirm that you worked there and for how long. Anything else is confidential unless the employee gives the past employer permission or something along those lines.


exactly thats how it works a previous employer can not let out information of why or how the employee was terminated in the state of TX. That is confidential information.

[Kori Ellis]

exactly thats how it works a previous employer can not let out information of why or how the employee was terminated in the state of TX. That is confidential information.

Really?

I looked around on the internet and it seems to be national that they can. Do you have a link to that?

[batman2883]

ill have to do some research for ya, but ill find it. I'm a man on a mission now

[Useruser666]

Texas law:

http://members.aol.com/mattlawfrm/texlaw.htm#Blacklist


Blacklisting/References (Labor Code, Sec. 52.031):[Return to Top]

It is unlawful to blacklist an employee in order to prevent the employee from obtaining gainful employment, and to conspire with others to prevent an employee from obtaining employment. Violations are punishable by fine of up to $250 and prison term of up to 90 days. However, companies are permitted to provide a truthful written statement about the reasons for termination, and cannot be sued for making a truthful report of problems with the employee.

Service Letters (Vernon's Civil Code, Sec. 5196): [Return to Top]

When an employer gives job references on a former employee, it must tell the employee within 10 days what was said (and furnish a copy of the response, if written). The statute also requires that the company provide the employee with a written notice which states all positions held, dates held, and whether performance was satisfactory in such position. However, the Texas Attorney General has advised that this requirement violates the Texas Constitution and is not enforceable. In addition, the statute requires any employer who receives a bad reference on an applicant to inform the applicant of the contents of the bad reference (and provide a copy if written).

This statute also prohibits discrimination against any individual because of peaceful participation in a lawful strike. Violation of the statute is a misdemeanor. If a foreign corporation violates the statute, it may forfeit its license to operate in Texas and be barred from doing further business in the state of Texas (Sec. 5198).

So now it's even more murky! :lol

[Kori Ellis]

However, companies are permitted to provide a truthful written statement about the reasons for termination, and cannot be sued for making a truthful report of problems with the employee.

That's not murky. The rule seems to be that employers just can't lie about why people were fired, but they can definitely tell the truth -- in writing. Which is what I said earlier.

[Useruser666]

This is what I meant by murky......


Office of the Attorney General
State of Texas

January 20, 1987

Mr. Allen Parker, Sr.
Commissioner
Texas Department of Labor & Standards
P.O. Box 12157
Austin, Texas 78711
Opinion No. JM-623

Re: Constitutionality of article 5196, V.T.C.S., requiring corporations to give a written statement of cause for discharge of employees

Dear Mr. Parker:

You have requested our opinion regarding the validity of section 3 of article 5196, V.T.C.S. The statute was originally enacted in 1907 by the Thirtieth Legislature. See Acts 1907, 30th Leg., ch. 67, at 142. The 1907 version provided:

Either or any of the following acts shall constitute discrimination against persons seeking employment:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

(3) Where any corporation or receiver of same, doing business in this state, or any agent or employee of such corporation or receiver, shall have discharged an employee, and such discharged employee demands a statement in writing, of the cause of his discharge, and such corporation, receiver, agent or employee thereof fails to furnish a true statement of same to such employee within ten days after such demand, provided, that such demand by the employee for said statement shall be made in writing....

Acts 1907, 30th Leg., ch. 67, at 142. This statute, as amended in 1909, was ruled unconstitutional by the Texas Supreme Court in St. Louis Southwestern Railway Co. of Texas v. Griffin, 171 S.W. 703 (Tex.1914).

This statute was reenacted in 1929 in its present form, which provides:

Either or any of the following acts shall constitute discrimination against persons seeking employment:

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

3. Where any corporation, or receiver of the same, doing business in this state, or any agent or employee of such corporation or receiver, shall have discharged an employee and such employee demands a statement in writing of the cause of his discharge, and such corporation, receiver, agent or employee thereof fails to furnish a true statement of the same to such discharged employee, within ten days after such demand, or where any corporation or receiver of the same, or any officer or agent of such corporation or receiver shall fail, within ten days after written demand for the same, to furnish to any employee voluntarily leaving the service of such corporation or receiver, a statement in writing that such employee did leave such service voluntarily, or where any corporation or receiver of the same, doing business within this state, shall fail to show in any statement under the provision of this title the number of years and months during which such employee was in the service of the said corporation or receiver in each and every separate capacity or position in which he was employed, and whether his services were satisfactory in each such capacity or not, or where any such corporation or receiver shall fail within ten days after written demand for the same to furnish to any such employee a true copy of the statement originally given to such employee for his use in case he shall have lost or is otherwise deprived of the use of the said original statement.

See Acts 1929, 41st Leg., ch. 245, s 1, at 509; see also Attorney General Opinion O-3562 (1941) (general history of this law against blacklisting).

The Griffin case held, among other things, that the impairment of a corporation's right to discharge employees at will without cause by the state is a violation of the corporation's constitutional right of liberty of contract, which right includes the corresponding right to accept a contract proposal. 171 S.W. at 704. In addition, the court held that the impairment of a corporation's right to discharge employees without cause by the statute is a denial of the equal protection of the laws secured by the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. The court also held that article I, section 8, of the Texas Constitution was violated because the liberty to speak or write includes the corresponding right to be silent and this right was infringed by the provisions of the statute compelling a corporation to give a discharged employee a statement of the cause of the discharge. Id. at 705. Therefore, the decision rested on both federal and state constitutional grounds.

When the codifiers of the Revised Civil Statutes of Texas in 1925 revised article 594, the definition of discrimination by employers was omitted along with many of the material provisions of the former law on that subject, thereby prompting the Forty-first Legislature to reenact article 5196 in its present form. See Acts 1929, 41st Leg., ch. 245, ss 1, 2, at 509. Apparently there was no law on the matter covered by article 5196 between 1925 and 1929.

In 1941 this office considered the validity of section 3 of article 5196 and held that

the reason that the codifiers of the Revised Civil Statutes of Texas, of 1925, omitted said [1909 Act as amended] from the 1925 codification was due to the fact that this [Act] had been declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in the case of St. Louis Railway Co. v. Griffin.

It is our opinion that the decision of the Supreme Court in the above cited case is controlling and decides the question presented in your inquiry; therefore, it is the opinion of this department that section 3 of article 5196, Vernon's Civil Statutes is unconstitutional, and that a corporation is not required to give a discharged employee a statement in writing of the cause of his discharge....

Attorney General Opinion O-3562 (1941). In 1957, the Attorney General reaffirmed the 1941 Opinion and interpreted the Griffin case as invalidating not only section 3, but the entire act. See Attorney General Opinion WW-114 (1957). You have asked us to reconsider and to overrule these two prior Attorney General Opinions to conform with intervening judicial decisions and statutory enactments. We will evaluate section 3 of article 5196, V.T.C.S., in light of those considerations.

You make three suggestions as to why the Griffin case is no longer controlling and the Attorney General Opinions should be overruled.

First, you argue that the idea of substantive due process upon which the Griffin case was based has been discredited. The Griffin case was decided during a period when the United States Supreme Court used the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution as a protection of fundamental economic and property rights particularly in the area of labor legislation. See, e.g., Lochner v. New York, 198 U.S. 45 (1905); Coppage v. Kansas, 236 U.S. 1 (1915); Railroad Retirement Board v. Alton Railroad Co., 295 U.S. 330 (1935); see also L. Tribe, American Constitutional Law, at 439-42 (1978); G. Gunther, Constitutional Law, at 502-33 (10th ed. 1980). For example, in Lochner v. New York, the Court held invalid a New York law prohibiting the employment of bakery employees for more than ten (10) hours per day or sixty (60) hours per week. Justice Peckham, writing for the majority, reasoned that although the state has the authority, through its police power, to enact legislation to conserve the morals and the health or safety of the people, such power is limited by the right of the individual to liberty of person and freedom of contract. 198 U.S. at 57. The liberty of an individual to make contracts for labor applied to both the employer and employee. 198 U.S. at 59. Consequently, the liberty to contract was viewed as a fundamental economic right and the state could not interfere with that right "unless there be some fair ground, reasonable in and of itself, to say that there is material danger to the public health or safety of the employees." 198 U.S. at 61. It is this concept of substantive due process upon which the Texas Supreme Court based its decision in the Griffin case in 1914.

However, the substantive due process reasoning employed by the Griffin court is no longer a viable analysis under federal constitutional law. See West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish, 300 U.S. 379 (1937); Nebbia v. New York, 291 U.S. 502 (1934). The prevailing standard used to evaluate state legislative action is whether an economic regulation is reasonable in relation to its subject and is adopted in the interests of the community. West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish, 300 U.S. at 381. Therefore, a state may deprive an individual of his liberty or freedom of contract in the exercise of its police power, if the legislative action is not arbitrary or capricious, and as long as procedural due process is given.

This prevailing standard was articulated by the United States Supreme Court as follows:

So far as the requirement of due process is concerned, and in the absence of other constitutional restriction, a state is free to adopt whatever economic policy may reasonably be deemed to promote public welfare, and to enforce that policy by legislation adapted to its purpose. The courts are without authority either to declare such policy, or, when it is declared by the legislature, to override it. If the laws passed are seen to have a reasonable relation to a proper legislative purpose, and are neither arbitrary nor discriminatory, the requirements of due process are satisfied, and judicial determination to that effect renders a court functus officio....

Nebbia v. New York, 291 U.S. at 537. It is this standard we must employ in determining whether article 5196, as amended in 1929, violates the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Accordingly, the sole question in this respect is whether the statute is reasonable in relation to its subject and adopted in the interests of the community. See, e.g., West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish, 300 U.S. 379 (1937); see also Seoane v. Ortho Pharmaceuticals, Inc., 660 F.2d 146 (5th Cir.1981).

The Supreme Court has previously upheld the Missouri "service letter" statute finding it to be within the state's police power and not an arbitrary interference with freedom of contract amounting to a deprivation of liberty or property without due process. See Prudential Insurance Co. v. Cheek, 259 U.S. 530 (1922); see also State v. Hughes, 169 S.W.2d 328 (Mo.1943) (statute held constitutional under state constitution). The service letter statute, similar to section 3 of article 5196, V.T.C.S., required corporations to issue service letters on request of corporation employees discharged or voluntarily quitting its service. The Supreme Court in the Cheek case reasoned that the Missouri statute was enacted to prevent injustice and oppression which had become so great as to be a public evil to large numbers of laboring people. 259 U.S. at 535. Regardless of the Griffin decision, we believe that the United States Supreme Court, applying its present substantive due process analysis to section 3 of article 5196, V.T.C.S., would reach a similar conclusion. Accordingly, we believe that section 3 of article 5196, V.T.C.S., has a reasonable relation to a proper legislative purpose and does not violate the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

The Griffin court also based its decision on the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. We believe that the argument set forth in Griffin is no longer valid under present equal protection analysis. Section 3 of article 5196 should be evaluated under the present rational basis standard. In light of the present standard, which is the same as the substantive due process standard, the statute does not violate the constitutional equal protection provision. See Seoane v. Ortho Pharmaceutical, Inc., 660 F.2d 146 (5th Cir.1981).

Finally, the Griffin case also declared the 1907 version of section 3 of article 5196 invalid because the provision violated article I, section 8, of the Texas Constitution. See 171 S.W.2d at 705. As stated above, the Texas Supreme Court held that article I, section 8, was violated because the corporation had a right of "liberty to speak" or write, and this right carried with it the corresponding right to be silent or not to give a discharged employee a statement of the cause of the discharge. Id. This construction of article I, section 8, has never been challenged in our court system.

Although the "liberty to speak" guaranteed in article I, section 8, of the Texas Constitution is similar but not identical to the right of free speech guaranteed by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, the Texas courts may construe article I, section 8, more strictly than federal courts have construed the free speech clause of the First Amendment. Cf. Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins, 447 U.S. 74 (1980); Cooper v. California, 386 U.S. 58, 62 (1967). But the state court's construction of a state constitutional provision cannot have the effect of denying an individual any federal constitutional right. See Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins, supra.

Therefore, under article I, section 8, of the Texas Constitution, a corporation has the right not to speak or write letters of discharge. Even though we may disagree with this interpretation, we are not at liberty to modify or overrule the Texas Supreme Court's holding in Griffin. This is especially true since our legislature and courts have not done so.

Moreover, the corporation's right should not be abridged when the legislature has enacted other statutes to curb the problem intended to be solved. See, e.g., V.T.C.S. arts. 5196c (definition of blacklisting); 5196d (prohibition against blacklisting); 5196e (penalty for engaging in blacklisting).

Attorney General Opinions O-3562 (1941) and WW-114 (1956) are overruled to the extent they conflict with this opinion.
SUMMARY

Section 3 of article 5196, V.T.C.S., does not violate the due process clause nor the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. However, the statute does violate article I, section 8, of the Texas Constitution which has been interpreted to grant a corporation the right not to write letters stating the true cause of discharging employees.

Very truly yours,
Mattox signature

Jim Mattox
Attorney General of Texas

Jack Hightower
First Assistant Attorney General

Mary Keller
Executive Assistant Attorney General

Rick Gilpin
Chairman, Opinion Committee

Prepared by
Tony Guillory
Assistant Attorney General

[Kori Ellis]

Yeah, but that's all about getting a written reason from your former employer as to why you were terminated and whether companies are required to do that within 10 days of letting someone go. As far as I can see, it's not about references (but I didn't read it all).

[Useruser666]

The point I was trying to make earlier was that if she leaves the job, the worst they can do is say she worked there and for how long. If they say she was a bad employee and that wasn't true, then they get busted for blacklisting her. The part that is unclear is where the AG goes into the certain parts of the statute not being constitutional.

I think it also deals with if the person who is looking to hire you gets a bad review, do they or the old employer have to tell you about it. It'd be nice to know if you got turned down for a job because some ex boss was trying to stick you.

[tlongII]

She should just state that she left her prior employment to pursue better opportunities.

[Kori Ellis]

The point I was trying to make earlier was that if she leaves the job, the worst they can do is say she worked there and for how long.

No it's not. They can easily just say she was fired. They won't get in any trouble for that if it's true she was let go.

[timvp]

Sign Sequ up to work at the county fair. He can man the "You Must Be This Tall" sign.

Late.

[Useruser666]

No it's not. They can easily just say she was fired. They won't get in any trouble for that if it's true she was let go.

True, but atleast they can't make stuff up about you. Legally, that is.

[Kori Ellis]

True, but atleast they can't make stuff up about you. Legally, that is.

Of course not. That was never a question, was it?

[Useruser666]

Sign Sequ up to work at the county fair. He can man the "You Must Be This Tall" sign.

Late.

There is the job at McDonalds for keeping kids out of the playground equipment that are too big.

"If you're taller than this line you can't go in."

[pseudofan]

Okay, I see there are a bunch of COMMODE-ians in here today....

hardy hardy har....laugh it up fat boys!

[bigzak25]

laugh it up fat boys!



hey, i didn't say a gotdamn thing... :cuss :flipoff


agreed that 'lack of advancement opportunity' is your friends best bet.

[pseudofan]

It was a joke BZ! I think it was from the old SNL, belushi I think would say it.

[bigzak25]

i know sista...i'm just kidding around. :tu

[ShoogarBear]

I wasn't. If she can make pie, I know a place she can always find employment.

[cherylsteele]

When you fill out a job application, you sign on the bottom that you are willing to let them contact your former employers. If the prospective employers CALLS the former employers, they can only confirm that you worked there, dates of employment, and eligibility for rehire. If the prospective employers WRITES the former employers with a copy of the signature of consent from the employee included, then the former employer can answer whatever questions the prospective employer asks, including things about the employees work habits, attitude, and yes - if they were terminated.


A past employer can only say when the individual work there. They cannot say why they no longer work for an employer.

Think about it...if an employer and employee part ways for what ever reason and the employer wants to black list you even if unwarranted because he feels you left his business in the wrong terms he could say anything and have no consiquences. If for what ever reasons the employer may feel wronged...whether true or not they could say all sorts of outrageiys things.....believe me can, will, and does happen.

[Kori Ellis]

A past employer can only say when the individual work there. They cannot say why they no longer work for an employer.

Think about it...if an employer and employee part ways for what ever reason and the employer wants to black list you even if unwarranted because he feels you left his business in the wrong terms he could say anything and have no consiquences. If for what ever reasons the employer may feel wronged...whether true or not they could say all sorts of outrageiys things.....believe me can, will, and does happen.

Sorry but you are wrong. I worked in the personnel industry for 12 years. Previous employers can definitely say why you don't work there anymore. Most don't because of fear of lawsuits, but they definitely legally can.


Blacklisting/References (Labor Code, Sec. 52.031):[Return to Top]

It is unlawful to blacklist an employee in order to prevent the employee from obtaining gainful employment, and to conspire with others to prevent an employee from obtaining employment. Violations are punishable by fine of up to $250 and prison term of up to 90 days. However, companies are permitted to provide a truthful written statement about the reasons for termination, and cannot be sued for making a truthful report of problems with the employee.

[Mr. Ash]

A past employer can only say when the individual work there. They cannot say why they no longer work for an employer.

Think about it...if an employer and employee part ways for what ever reason and the employer wants to black list you ....

You may be confused about what blacklisting is. Bascially, it's when there are a limited number of employers for a specific occupation, and they all share of "list" of people they don't want to hire.

You can absolutely provide a reason someone was fired to a prospective employer. Many companies have policies against this since you are a big, fat lawsuit magnet for doing so. Truth, lies - it costs money to defend, so you're better off just verifying employment.

[ididnotnothat]

A past employer can only say when the individual work there. They cannot say why they no longer work for an employer.

Think about it...if an employer and employee part ways for what ever reason and the employer wants to black list you even if unwarranted because he feels you left his business in the wrong terms he could say anything and have no consiquences. If for what ever reasons the employer may feel wronged...whether true or not they could say all sorts of outrageiys things.....believe me can, will, and does happen.

Legal or not our company will only confirm employment and I've been fired before and it has not hurt me at all. At least I don't think I've ever not gotten a job because of it.

[SequSpur]

In the medical field, such as nursing, most agencies and new employers required a semidetailed reference form to be filled out by your previous employer.

[Nbadan]

Shit, this is easy..

Really it depends on what kind of new position we are talking about. If its like the job she had before, in the same field, your friend should say that she really enjoyed the job, but XYZ's company goals no longer seemed compatible with her own. Try to add something the new company offers that her old employer didn't offer - a more professional work enviroment, better benefits, more hours...

If the new position is better than her old position than she should say that her old job no longer was compatible with her professional career development and she needed to stretch her wings and explore new advancement opportunities.

And remember, the next time you need something spun post it in the Political forum

:lol

[Clandestino]

:lol nbadan can twist anything...