Will Kawhi ever take the next step on a healthy Spurs team?

[objective]

Paul George is a superstar. Kawhi is occasionally compared to him.

But how did George get there? By being forced to become great, and in that, allowed to fail in order to learn to succeed.

His first two seasons, George had similar numbers to Kawhi with his role in the offense.

1st year FGA per game = 6.5 (Kawhi 6.3)
2nd year FGA per game = 9.7 (Kawhi 9.1)

George did have a higher usage, but for shots on goal, pretty close.

Then for last year, Granger was unexpectedly out. That forced George to have to take over the offense. Yes, the Pacers still had options like Hibbert (who was hampered by injury) and West and of course Hill, but George had to take on a bigger load, an unanticipated load. As a result, George's FGA went up 50%.

And for that first month or so, he was terrible. He failed. A lot.

George shot 38% those first 10 games. He game was criticized heavily, even some Pacer fans were convinced that he didn't have it. 13.5 points a game as a number 1 option.

Hell, in the 16th and 17th games of the season, George hit the lowest of lows.

In a win against Sacramento, he went 2-11 for 4 points. He then followed that up in a loss to Golden State by going 0-7 and finishing with 0 points. Two games, four points.

That's how bad he struggled. But it was by going through the fire that he was able to be get better. The injury to Granger and Vogel's willingness to let George play and fail was the best thing that could have happened to him. After those two terrible games he hasn't looked back.

So what about Kawhi? Sure he has the third most FGA on the Spurs, but it's still about the same number of attempts that George was getting when he was a role player like Kawhi. And I'm sure quite a few of those attempts are transition or delayed transition, sometimes the product of his own steals or rebounds that he keeps. Without that, I wonder what his FGA in the halfcourt are, couldn't find it in quick looks at hoopdata, 82games and BR. I know that right now George gets about 30 more touches a game than Kawhi, but can't find George's touches last year. I do know that he is 5th on the Spurs for touches per game. And even if Kawhi was hitting 3s at the same rate as last year, his ppg would be up by 1 if applied to this season. Not so huge a difference.

I wonder if Kawhi even can take the next step without being allowed to fail, and fail a lot. With a lot of minutes, and a lot of touches in the halfcourt. Hell, his points per halfcourt touch at .36 is right behind Duncan (.37) and better than Ginobili (.27) and Parker (.26). It would probably go bad. But it's what I think he needs.

Unfortunately, I don't don't know if Pop will be doing that. Hell, probably not. Now you might think, "Oh, but Pop is a big experimenter! Just look at tonight when he had the Crap Quintet lose the lead in the second quarter!"

True, Pop experiments, but too often has refused experiments for too long that had the most potential for return, like his refusal to experiment with Splitter next to Duncan for two whole damn seasons.

And so, by keeping Kawhi's minutes low, and his touches low (in context), will Kawhi ever reach his potential?

I hope that Pop spends the rest of this regular season experimenting to finding ways to get Kawhi touches in the halfcourt that are more than him swinging the ball and standing around. A lot of touches. Like 50% more touches per game.

And by more minutes. The good thing about tonight was that Kawhi was allowed to play 37 minutes. Too bad it took a blowout to get it done, but if that's what it takes I hope the Spurs get blown out a lot more.

[RD2191]

time to rebuild tbh, pops gimmick offense has been exposed and will only get us wins against scrub teams. this team won't even sniff the wcf without leonard taking a major role and blossoming in that role. pop ain't even trying to develop him tbh. i wouldnt mind the losses if it meant kawhi was actually getting better as a player. but as it stands, that isn't the case.

[RD2191]

:wakeup

[objective]

pops gimmick offense has been exposed and will only get us wins against scrub teams. this team won't even sniff the wcf without leonard taking a major role and blossoming in that role. pop ain't even trying to develop him tbh. i wouldnt mind the losses if it meant kawhi was actually getting better as a player. but as it stands, that isn't the case.

I don't disagree with the offense part. The Spurs offense is so well run that they can win a lot of games against bad teams just by out-executing all the crap teams. But when the Spurs face good defenses with athletes who have size (IND, POR, OKC, MIA) they have major issues. The more Kawhi can get touches, the better he'll be in those situations where the offense can't get good shots for Green, Marco and the like or when they just miss everything.

And if Kawhi can make progress as a ballhandler in the halfcourt (after being allowed to struggle), maybe Manu's Turnover Tsunamis can be minimized.

[ElNono]

:pop: "It wouldn't be fair to Matty"

[HI-FI]

If his tendonitis isn't an issue, then I'd love for Kawhi to get a lot more touches. THe tendonitis is the only thing I worry about and hopefully Pop isn't limiting him because of that.

He also needs Heroball to give him the ball more. Pop needs to make sure Heroball gets the point.

[r0drig0lac]

:pop: "It wouldn't be fair to Matty"
:lol

[ElNono]

IMO, Pop main concern isn't to get Kawhi more touches, but to keep the players healthy and growing as a team... he has called Kawhi's number specifically a few times, but it's really secondary to the big picture...

On the other hand, I love Kawhi but he still needs work on his offense... handles, footwork, a go-to move... it's not all there yet... I think he can get there, but it will take time...

[TheGoldStandard]

The fact that they want Kawhi squatting at the 3 point line because of the personnel ruins a lot of his game. He's not anoutside threat and not Bowen 2.0 he needs to simplify his game, cutting to the basket and scoring easy

[HarlemHeat37]

The primary difference between George and Leonard is shooting ability, tbh, George is one of the best outside shooters in the league, while Leonard is a mediocre outside shooter..

George is a better ball-handler and passer, but like OP said, that was aided by increase in usage in Indiana's offense..until this season, George had major issues with ball-handling, like Leonard..


Kawhi with a broken jump shot simply doesn't fit with Parker, and Pop has not added any wrinkles to solve this problem, tbh..it would make sense to increase Leonard's minutes with the 2nd unit, which will lead to more touches, but it seems like the coaching staff is more concerned with his knees than his role..

[objective]

If his tendonitis isn't an issue, then I'd love for Kawhi to get a lot more touches. THe tendonitis is the only thing I worry about and hopefully Pop isn't limiting him because of that.

He also needs Heroball to give him the ball more. Pop needs to make sure Heroball gets the point.

if his tendonosis was an issue, I doubt Pop would have had him log 37 minutes minutes in game that was over in 20 point blowout with what, a quarter and a half left?



IMO, Pop main concern isn't to get Kawhi more touches, but to keep the players healthy and growing as a team... he has called Kawhi's number specifically a few times, but it's really secondary to the big picture...

On the other hand, I love Kawhi but he still needs work on his offense... handles, footwork, a go-to move... it's not all there yet... I think he can get there, but it will take time...

My worry is that his handles, footwork, go-to move, etc, won't get there without more chances to fail at them and then learn from the failure. Only so much can happen in the rare practices the Spurs get, and the work Leonard puts in on his own time.

[objective]

I'm not saying that Kawhi will be Paul George, whose scoring ability in college was compared to people like McGrady, but I am saying that I don't think Kawhi will be any better than the role player he is now without being given the opportunity and responsibility to be more.

Just as George being forced to be more with Granger going down.

Whatever Kawhi's potential is, I don't think he'll get there fast enough at his current rate with his current role. Instead of being month to month improvement like George where now he's a top 5 player, Leonard is looking at a season-to-season improvements.

[RD2191]

Objective, how would Leonard go about this though? I'm not really knowledgeable in the game of babll, tbh. Would he just go iso every time or???

[ElNono]

My worry is that his handles, footwork, go-to move, etc, won't get there without more chances to fail at them and then learn from the failure. Only so much can happen in the rare practices the Spurs get, and the work Leonard puts in on his own time.

There's nothing new about the 1st unit... it's going to be TP/TD. Pop knows that's where his bread is buttered and he won't really mess with that. We already have two bigs in the paint with that lineup, so Kawhi is going to have to make outside shots...

As Harlem said, perhaps in the 2nd unit he could get some more run, but the 2nd unit right now is integrating new guys and trying to find an identity of it's own, so I doubt it's going to happen there...

I know a lot of people here think a lot of what the Spurs do is run on "automatic", but there's a fairly serious balancing act happening every night... who gets the touches, why, certain pecking order, etc...

[Spurs da champs]

Instead of being month to month improvement like George where now he's a top 5 player, Leonard is looking at a season-to-season improvements.

Except, Leonard does not appear to better than he was last year, & his great finals (with a healthy Spurs team) performance have yet to translate to this season.

[objective]

It would just be Pop forcing the ball into Leonard's hands. Every kind of play, but just more. Sure Kawhi gets his one post-up a game, and maybe gets a ballhandling role in the halfcourt, but he needs more. It would probably be made easier by more minutes, and more minutes with the second unit. Pop would have to call more plays for Leonard. A lot more ball handling responsibility for Leonard. More pick and roll. He would likely have a rough time, missed shots, bad shots, turnovers, bad passes, etc. But suffering through that would hopefully get him better at all facets of the game.

And if it means less touches for Parker and Duncan, honestly it's better to lose some battles in order to win a war.

[racm]

Just make him play 48 mpg

[ElNono]

It would just be Pop forcing the ball into Leonard's hands. Every kind of play, but just more. Sure Kawhi gets his one post-up a game, and maybe gets a ballhandling role in the halfcourt, but he needs more. It would probably be made easier by more minutes, and more minutes with the second unit. Pop would have to call more plays for Leonard. A lot more ball handling responsibility for Leonard. More pick and roll. He would likely have a rough time, missed shots, bad shots, turnovers, bad passes, etc. But suffering through that would hopefully get him better at all facets of the game.

And if it means less touches for Parker and Duncan, honestly it's better to lose some battles in order to win a war.

That will come once TP and TD are not longer option 1 and 2 in the starting lineup... It's not happening right now.

IMO, anyways

[RD2191]

Why isn't it though? I don't see the Spurs winning a title anytime soon so why hold Leonard back? I for one would like to see if Leonard can lead a team once Tim and Manu are gone. If Pop waits too long then I see it really hurting the rebuild mode.

[objective]

There's nothing new about the 1st unit... it's going to be TP/TD. Pop knows that's where his bread is buttered and he won't really mess with that. We already have two bigs in the paint with that lineup, so Kawhi is going to have to make outside shots...

As Harlem said, perhaps in the 2nd unit he could get some more run, but the 2nd unit right now is integrating new guys and trying to find an identity of it's own, so I doubt it's going to happen there...

I know a lot of people here think a lot of what the Spurs do is run on "automatic", but there's a fairly serious balancing act happening every night... who gets the touches, why, certain pecking order, etc...

That's why I don't think Kawhi can make the next step on a healthy Spurs team (just as George probably would've stayed a low efficiency role playing defender had Granger stayed healthy).

Because with a healthy team, it's a lot easier to keep the status quo.

Hell it took over two full seasons for Pop to try Splitter out next to Duncan as a starter in consecutive games. And that wasn't health induced, Diaw and Blair were healthy enough, but thankfully Pop finally tried it.

The status quo will be to play if safe. More or less the same with the starters, and limiting Kawhi's minutes to be on the safe side with his knees keeping him from getting more with the second unit.

I am skeptical to how Kawhi gets any better than he is now with the status quo.

[racm]

Kawhi's not built to be the man anyway, he's more of a Pippen/Iguodala type where he's at his best playing off of a dominant scorer.

[ElNono]

That's why I don't think Kawhi can make the next step on a healthy Spurs team (just as George probably would've stayed a low efficiency role playing defender had Granger stayed healthy).

Because with a healthy team, it's a lot easier to keep the status quo.

Hell it took over two full seasons for Pop to try Splitter out next to Duncan as a starter in consecutive games. And that wasn't health induced, Diaw and Blair were healthy enough, but thankfully Pop finally tried it.

The status quo will be to play if safe. More or less the same with the starters, and limiting Kawhi's minutes to be on the safe side with his knees keeping him from getting more with the second unit.

I am skeptical to how Kawhi gets any better than he is now with the status quo.

Being 28 secs away from another title probably reinforced the belief the status quo is good enough...

I just think Pop isn't really focused or worried about it... IMO, he knows Kawhi will keep improving (even if ever so slightly) because of gained experience, more games under his belt, better understanding of what the Spurs need in the system, etc etc etc... I just don't think he's going to force the issue, because he would need to break something that, by a lot of measures, it's working well...

[objective]

Being 28 secs away from another title probably reinforced the belief the status quo is good enough...


I'm sure that's their mindset, and it would be a mistake imo. Kind of like how they refused to improve the roster after 07. Each season is it's own season, the status quo of one might not be good enough the next after the league adjusts and their own players improve/fade with age.

[ElNono]

I'm sure that's their mindset, and it would be a mistake imo. Kind of like how they refused to improve the roster after 07. Each season is it's own season, the status quo of one might not be good enough the next after the league adjusts and their own players improve/fade with age.

I stopped stressing about that, tbh (well, except when Ginger is getting burn)... I'll just enjoy the journey and when the time comes they'll either be good enough or not...

[DMC]

The Spurs aren't trying to build superstar players only to lose them when they become free agents and want superstar money. The Spurs want to mold players that could be superstars into really good starters who aren't really aware of just how much they should be making on other teams. That's in the best interest of the Spurs. If Leonard wants to be a superstar, he's going to have to do it himself.

[DMC]

Being 28 secs away from another title probably reinforced the belief the status quo is good enough...

I just think Pop isn't really focused or worried about it... IMO, he knows Kawhi will keep improving (even if ever so slightly) because of gained experience, more games under his belt, better understanding of what the Spurs need in the system, etc etc etc... I just don't think he's going to force the issue, because he would need to break something that, by a lot of measures, it's working well...

I think Pop sees his team as a blade that's as sharp as he can make it, when it's honed. It's not going to be 200x folded Damascus, but 440 Stainless that's always sharp enough to cut through most of the objects it encounters if he swings it right. He's the old mechanic who still uses manual troubleshooting with a meter and a probe instead of a diagnostics PC. He can get it done if the task isn't too large, but if all others are clicking, his team is not good enough to win the ring. I think that's probably always been the case, even when Tim was in his prime. It took some misfortunes elsewhere to get there, the Spurs were never the far and away strongest team in the league, thus no repeat titles. They just made fewer mistakes, had better ball movement, players with higher BB IQs, better in game adjustments and better time management than other teams.

[siraulo23]

Quality thread tbh

and unfortunately no, not any time soon

Pop's just not the type of guy who's gonna alter his system just so a player could accelerate his growth as a basketball player, i agree that leonard should be the focal point of the offense when td/tp is not on the floor but he doesnt even get plays called in those situations

The guards just dominate the ball in pop's system, it's all guards/bigs pick n rolls, SFs play off the ball and camp in the corner

With that said, kawhi is still gonna be solid this season, he's just in a slump/confidence issue, he'll get it together when it matters but the question is, does he progress enough this season to be a serious threat in the POs?

[wildbill2u]

SpursTalk fans are simply expecting too much of Leonard. He's a good player--but he'll never be a dominant franchise player you build a team around. Those guys come around about once a decade and their superstardom is clearly visible by their third year. He fades into the background too often to be a developing superstar, neither eager, willing or able to put the team on his back and will them to victory.

Leonard will probably be another Sean Elliott, Gene Banks, Willie Anderson, Larry Kenon or maybe a Bowen.

[ElNono]

I think Pop sees his team as a blade that's as sharp as he can make it, when it's honed. It's not going to be 200x folded Damascus, but 440 Stainless that's always sharp enough to cut through most of the objects it encounters if he swings it right. He's the old mechanic who still uses manual troubleshooting with a meter and a probe instead of a diagnostics PC. He can get it done if the task isn't too large, but if all others are clicking, his team is not good enough to win the ring. I think that's probably always been the case, even when Tim was in his prime. It took some misfortunes elsewhere to get there, the Spurs were never the far and away strongest team in the league, thus no repeat titles. They just made fewer mistakes, had better ball movement, players with higher BB IQs, better in game adjustments and better time management than other teams.

Oh, I agree. But I also think that's actually maximizing the realities of the league. IMO, Pop isn't at fault that top free agents rarely, if ever, want to come play in a small market. In other words, making a "superfriends" team might never really be in the cards for the Spurs. If we acknowledge the FO is making lemonade from the get go, then I think they've been done a terrific job.

[DMC]

Oh, I agree. But I also think that's actually maximizing the realities of the league. IMO, Pop isn't at fault that top free agents rarely, if ever, want to come play in a small market. In other words, making a "superfriends" team might never really be in the cards for the Spurs. If we acknowledge the FO is making lemonade from the get go, then I think they've been done a terrific job.

The Spurs will never have a stacked team unless they build it from the ground up. Even then they have to do it with foreign players and draft picks because once free agency comes around, the majority of developed talent is going to go elsewhere for more money. So you're right. The system Pop runs is at the razors edge of possibility for the level of talent and athleticism, however there's more going on there than just a system. It's a core group who, for the most part, play for each other as much as for individual accolades. I think they enjoy playing together, their coach enjoys them, and they respect their coach. There's not many organizations in the world like that in any sport. I think that's how they get the most from new players. They plug them into a system that has other options, and the veterans support the newbies. There's simply no plausible explanation for their successes otherwise, unless you credit Tim Duncan for all of it. He certainly deserves a good portion of the credit however.

With other teams, especially recently stacked ones, everything looks good until they have a losing streak. Then you see the stars start doubting the coaching staff. You start to see innuendo regarding systems and trades and that doubt filters down to all the other guys. Then they all feel they have an excuse to not give their all, or to just play for themselves, like it's doomsday and they have to get theirs. I haven't seen that in SA. I've seen some despair, but not doubt. Outside of the rogue players like Jax, I've not seen any real doubt amongst the players even during a bad stretch.

It makes you wonder how good an East coast, mid level team could be if they had the right front office personalities.

[spurraider21]

The primary difference between George and Leonard is shooting ability, tbh, George is one of the best outside shooters in the league, while Leonard is a mediocre outside shooter..

George is a better ball-handler and passer, but like OP said, that was aided by increase in usage in Indiana's offense..until this season, George had major issues with ball-handling, like Leonard..


Kawhi with a broken jump shot simply doesn't fit with Parker, and Pop has not added any wrinkles to solve this problem, tbh..it would make sense to increase Leonard's minutes with the 2nd unit, which will lead to more touches, but it seems like the coaching staff is more concerned with his knees than his role..
when paul george came into the league he couldn't hit outside shots tbh, but i guess their shooting coach > chip

[SanAntonioSpurs23]

SpursTalk fans are simply expecting too much of Leonard. He's a good player--but he'll never be a dominant franchise player you build a team around. Those guys come around about once a decade and their superstardom is clearly visible by their third year. He fades into the background too often to be a developing superstar, neither eager, willing or able to put the team on his back and will them to victory.

Leonard will probably be another Sean Elliott, Gene Banks, Willie Anderson, Larry Kenon or maybe a Bowen.

this tbh....

[wildchild]

Leonard wants more opportunities to improve his game and he has his own way of saying it. When asked him in last postgame about if he was getting more comfortable in O, Leonard said he has played more minutes.

Agreed with OP. Leonard needs time to experiment how to use the skills he's developing in the regular season, to make mistakes and failures, and if he fails once, be encouraged to continue and learn from those mistakes.

Playtime and a coach focused on developing the kid and willing to reach his potential ability.


SpursTalk fans are simply expecting too much of Leonard. He's a good player--but he'll never be a dominant franchise player you build a team around. Those guys come around about once a decade and their superstardom is clearly visible by their third year. He fades into the background too often to be a developing superstar, neither eager, willing or able to put the team on his back and will them to victory.

Leonard will probably be another Sean Elliott, Gene Banks, Willie Anderson, Larry Kenon or maybe a Bowen.

Doesn't matter if he'll never be a superstar. The greatest superstars are only three or four players by generation as Kobe or LeBron.
Leonard isn't a star but he's a guy who a lot of people would pay to watch. With him, Tony, some 1st round draft pick, then add a great FA, and we'll be a contender.

[Proxy]

feel like Kawhi doesn't know his own offensive identity and it's a domino effect to the coaches and players from there. So yeah, more minutes. He'll be a third option at best imho.

Shawn Marion type

[superbigtime]

Hell, i'd settle for 20 points.

[look_at_g_shred]

When Kawhi is aggressive, we are a better team. I wish he would be aggressive from the tip. I'd like to see him get to the line 6-7 times a game.