How many of you people...

[MannyIsGod]

Sometimes it is an observation. Many of the "morals" in the Bible I believe came about because treating others well was most beneficial to civilization.

Religion/spirituality can have positive effects. Everyone here is dwelling on the negative.
The same positive effects that a religion has on people can be accomplished without the religion. I can help people in a manner Jesus would have approved of even if I do not accept him as a supernatural being.

If by dwelling on the negative you mean that we are focusing on the explanations given by certain religions and testing their validity or searching for more answers, then you are correct.

But I fail to see how that is a negative.

[SWC Bonfire]

If by dwelling on the negative you mean that we are focusing on the explanations given by certain religions and testing their validity or searching for more answers, then you are correct.

Well, these threads have somewhat run together in my brain.

[Guru of Nothing]

Well, these threads have somewhat run together in my brain.

I'm sorry, can you please repeat the question.

[smeagol]

I'm pretty tired of getting the "just because" and "only God knows" responses to that question. I've never been able to accept a "just because" response, so why should I start with something as important as the debate over free will?
This topic is a very complex one. Many knowledgeable people on the subject have debated it over the years and there is still no agreement. At the end of the day, both sides have to back their arguments with a “just because”.

What is your POV on the free will debate?

[smeagol]

Smeagol, ever wonder what created the creator?
Yes. What I have read about this subject is very difficult to grasp. Bottom line, he was not created. He has always been there. God exists outside time and space as we know it. He was there at the Beginning and he will be there at the End.

[Jekka]

This topic is a very complex one. Many knowledgeable people on the subject have debated it over the years and there is still no agreement. At the end of the day, both sides have to back their arguments with a “just because”.

What is your POV on the free will debate?

I think that if there is indeed a god, that Shakespeare's quote on life is very appropriate: "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players." If God knows what we are going to do, then it would be impossible for us to deviate.

Because I am not 100% sure of an omnipotent and omnicient god's existence, it is difficult for me to rationalize my beliefs to others. I think that whether or not that one god exists, that there is a spiritual element to this universe - that things like intuition and deep connections with other people are real. I don't believe in fairies or crystals or worshipping oak trees, but I think the Wiccans have a good philosophy that others could learn from - "do what you want, just don't hurt anyone else." I think there's something spiritual in respecting the lives of those around you and the collective spirit of life as whole. I believe it is important to respect life around you because we do have free will, and something has to keep it in check.

[MannyIsGod]

See, I don't understand why God wouldn't have that same philosophy. Do what you want just don't hurt others. Why does it have to center around God?

It doesn't make sense to me. I wish God was a libertarian but it seems he is a republicrat.

[Jekka]

See, I don't understand why God wouldn't have that same philosophy. Do what you want just don't hurt others. Why does it have to center around God?

It doesn't make sense to me. I wish God was a libertarian but it seems he is a republicrat.

I think a lot of Judeo-Christians are obligated by their teachings to respect life as a whole more - but they become to focused (thanks usually to their denomination) on worshipping God in a certain way and forgetting all the other ways to be reverent.

[JoeChalupa]

Faith is as hard to explain as love.

I don't understand how a radio works but I know it does.
Heck I guess quite I bit of life I accept as "just because" or I could get all technical and try to figure everthing out.

I accept God and I guess I can't explain why other than saying it is "faith".

[MannyIsGod]

Thats fine, but someone can tell you how a radio works quite easily.

[smeagol]

See, I don't understand why God wouldn't have that same philosophy. Do what you want just don't hurt others.
I can see why the philosophy of “do what you want, as long as you don’t bother your neighbor” is appealing to people, the same way a religion without hell was once appealing to me.


Why does it have to center around God?
What do you want your philosophy to revolve around? Man? You?

When your philosophy revolves around the fact that you were created by God, you are very happy to worship Him. Again, I can see were you are coming from.

[MannyIsGod]

how about harmony? How about love? why does it have to center on a being?

[JoeChalupa]

Thats fine, but someone can tell you how a radio works quite easily.

That's fine, but it doesn't mean I'll understand does it?

[smeagol]

how about harmony? How about love? why does it have to center on a being?
It's centered around a being because that being is the reason we are here. It also preaches love as its most important premise. It preaches love over almost anything.

[JoeChalupa]

It's centered around a being because that being is the reason we are here. It also preaches love as its most important premise.

But without faith it is not.

[MannyIsGod]

It's centered around a being because that being is the reason we are here. It also preaches love as its most important premise. It preaches love over almost anything.
Yeah, I don't buy into that. It is so odd to me to preach against pride and yet make yourself the center of the universe. Jekka has also mentioned to me several passages in the bible where god is mentoined as a jealous god, which does not make sense to me.

I also don't understand how God could be angry when he knows what is going to happen the entire time.

[Spurminator]

It is so odd to me to preach against pride and yet make yourself the center of the universe.

I don't think it's odd. Would it be less odd if God didn't preach against pride, instead proclaiming that Pride is virtuous? Would it be less odd if God made other gods with their own universes? If we assume God exists, and we assume humility is virtuous, I don't see anything odd about it.


I also don't understand how God could be angry when he knows what is going to happen the entire time.

It's not anger in human terms, it's just a simple way of saying there are consequences for going against God. Same goes for jealousy.

[JoeChalupa]

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

I guess you could say God was jealous.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't think it's odd. Would it be less odd if God didn't preach against pride, instead proclaiming that Pride is virtuous? Would it be less odd if God made other gods with their own universes? If we assume God exists, and we assume humility is virtuous, I don't see anything odd about it.

Do as I say and not as I do? Wanting to be worshipped pretty much brings about visions of the deepest pride possible.

[JoePublic]

DAMN IT!!!
This is like trying to teach someone how to program a VCR who just doesn't get it.

Enough already. They don't believe so they don't get it and cannot grasp the idea of God and faith.

[MannyIsGod]

I grasp the idea of faith very well.

If you dont' like the discussion, feel free to leave the thread.

[JoePublic]

I grasp the idea of faith very well.

If you dont' like the discussion, feel free to leave the thread.

Same goes to you. I see you post your little "sighs" post on other threads.

I was commenting on the back and forth posting which is a legitimate post.

Take it easy bro. :fro

[Spurminator]

Do as I say and not as I do? Wanting to be worshipped pretty much brings about visions of the deepest pride possible.

It's more of an expectation than a want, in my opinion.

If you believe that there is a God who gave you life, you would likely be very grateful. That's why most people who find fault with God's expectations of us typically don't believe in God anyway.


Do as I say and not as I do?

But God doesn't have a "superior" to worship as we do, so it's not really a fair comparison. He did (we believe) become one of us, live a life of poverty and suffer a pretty horrific death... which in the Christian belief gave the opportunity of Heaven to all of mankind.

[JoeChalupa]

It's more of an expectation than a want, in my opinion.

If you believe that there is a God who gave you life, you would likely be very grateful. That's why most people who find fault with God's expectations of us typically don't believe in God anyway.



But God doesn't have a "superior" to worship as we do, so it's not really a fair comparison. He did (we believe) become one of us, live a life of poverty and suffer a pretty horrific death... which in the Christian belief gave the opportunity of Heaven to all of mankind.

Great posts. If only I could express myself so well.

[MannyIsGod]

It's more of an expectation than a want, in my opinion.

If you believe that there is a God who gave you life, you would likely be very grateful. That's why most people who find fault with God's expectations of us typically don't believe in God anyway.

Expectations can be wants and usually are. In fact it could be argued they are the pinacle of wanting something.

Thats not to say I don't believe in God in anyway, I don't nessecarily belive what the bible puts forth as God.

How can God even hold the concept of an expectation when he already knows what is going to happen? It is almot like watching a sad movie that you know the ending to, and then being disapointed when you get there. And if all of these concepts are beyond our understanding, why would there be consequences from an all loving god when we make the wrong decisions?



But God doesn't have a "superior" to worship as we do, so it's not really a fair comparison. He did (we believe) become one of us, live a life of poverty and suffer a pretty horrific death... which in the Christian belief gave the opportunity of Heaven to all of mankind.
Many times people say that if you look at the beauty of the world, you have to see an intelligent design behind it.

Well then I put forth, if you must see the beauty of the world and think that there is something behind it, must you not see the same from the beauty of god?

[smeagol]

Great posts. If only I could express myself so well.
Agreed. :depressed

Spurm, do you even believe in God?

[Shelly]

Perhaps, God is really a Goddess...

[MannyIsGod]

That would be quite ironic!

http://www.dogma-movie.com/pics/alanis/images/alanis.jpg

[Spurminator]

How can God even hold the concept of an expectation when he already knows what is going to happen? It is almot like watching a sad movie that you know the ending to, and then being disapointed when you get there. And if all of these concepts are beyond our understanding, why would there be consequences from an all loving god when we make the wrong decisions?

Those consequences are meant to lead people to accept God as their creator and to live their lives according to His plan. Most people who convert to Christianity (or any other religion, really) do so because they feel they are missing something.

As far as expectations go, I don't think it's the same as expectations in human terms. Assuming God DOES transcend time and space, and is all-knowing, how else would one describe his laws/guidelines for a Godly life to people who may not be able to grasp the concept of a God who doesn't experience "time" the way we do?


Many times people say that if you look at the beauty of the world, you have to see an intelligent design behind it.

Well then I put forth, if you must see the beauty of the world and think that there is something behind it, must you not see the same from the beauty of god?

I can't speak for everyone, but I do see it. I believe life is a gift, not a right... and I am appreciative of what I've been given. So I don't mind worship, tithing, sacrifice... and I don't question God's motives because I feel like it's a pretty fair tradeoff.

I can understand how that doesn't apply for everyone. It's kind of like if Person A buys a house, he knows he has to pay for it... But if Person B has lived in a house all his life, and then finds out he owes money, he's going to question it.

[Spurminator]

Agreed. :depressed

Spurm, do you even believe in God?

Thanks. Yes I do... Although I have days/weeks where I have doubts, like anyone.

Seems like one of these threads (or something similar in "Live-Action Life") always happens when I'm feeling most distant and unsure.

[smeagol]

Perhaps, God is really a Goddess...
I think God is sexless. I wouldn't mind Him being a señorita :spin

[MannyIsGod]

I try to keep an open mind on the subject and do not say there isn't a god. But I also don't try to keep myself closed into a religion, because I think that man always tends to screw good things up. We're talented like that.

I've been meaning to visit a Buddist Temple because I love the philosophies, but I don't think I would pursue it as a religion.

I basically do not know at the moment. I suffer from linear thinking, and therefor have a hard time understanding a universe that does not end, nor begins but is.

Catholocism never came close to giving me an answer to that.

[Spurminator]

You're right, and that's why I try to separate Church teachings and beliefs from Biblical ones. I find that a lot of problems people have with Christianity as a religion are based on how the Church has evolved in the hands of man, and not necessarily what Christ and his apostles preached during their lifetimes.

[smeagol]

I basically do not know at the moment. I suffer from linear thinking, and therefor have a hard time understanding a universe that does not end, nor begins but is.

Catholocism never came close to giving me an answer to that.
Not sure anybody can give you an answer to that question.

[JoeChalupa]

I basically do not know at the moment. I suffer from linear thinking, and therefor have a hard time understanding a universe that does not end, nor begins but is.

Maybe I'm not understanding but I guess for me I never looked for what I would call scientific answers in religion.
If that makes sense.

[MannyIsGod]

The answer is out there. It just hasn't been found yet. And I believe a based on reality should have no problem standing up to scientific questioning.

[Spurminator]

Well, most of this discussion has been philosophical in nature anyway... Not really scientific.

[MannyIsGod]

Philosophy could be the science of thought? I don't know.

[Spurminator]

Nah, science is usually proveable... Philosophy is just people with too much time on their hands bullshitting. :lol

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

[Jekka]

Nah, science is usually proveable... Philosophy is just people with too much time on their hands bullshitting. :lol

:lol

Actually, most philosophy programs require a lot of upper division math under the premise that both areas are searching for ultimate truth.

[jochhejaam]

The same positive effects that a religion has on people can be accomplished without the religion. I can help people in a manner Jesus would have approved of even if I do not accept him as a supernatural being.


So you approve of the lifestyle and example Jesus set for us?

[MannyIsGod]

Who wouldn't? I love the teachings of Jesus (with the exlusion of the son of god etc. I know you think that is hte most important part of the teachings, but I disagree) and agree that you should love your fellow man.

What problems would the world have if we all tried to live up to that standard?

[Bandit2981]

I think all of you need to check out the movie "What The Bleep Do We Know?" if you haven't seen it already. It discusses many of the questions you guys are asking and tries to answer them, or at least give a new perspective, as it relates to the quantum physics world. It's not difficult and esoteric either, its very easy to follow but it will twist your mind more than you can imagine!

[jochhejaam]

Who wouldn't? I love the teachings of Jesus (with the exlusion of the son of god etc. I know you think that is the most important part of the teachings, but I disagree) and agree that you should love your fellow man.


The Bible itself stresses the importance of believing that Christ is the Son of God. We believe it to be the inerrant and inspired Word of God and that is what qualifies it's importance.


"He who comes to me must know who I am and believe on Him that sent me".





In past posts in this thread you have mentioned something about God being a prideful God

Originally posted by MannyIsGod : Any God that refuses to allow me eternal salvation because I did not honor him properly is a god full of pride and a god for which I have no use.
I am not trying to disuade anyone from believing what they do, but that is a supreme litmus test for me.


My opinion is that the separation or wall that exists between God and you is indeed pride, but it is yours not God's. In a previoius post we established that pride is sin (Love is patient, ..., it is not proud. Corinthians). There is a part of man (and I believe it has to do with the initial rebellion by Satan against God) that resists having someone telling us what to do. We like to put up a facade of being self sufficient and independent. The ol' "I can pull myself up by my own boot straps mentality". The truth of the matter is that no one is entirely self sufficient.
In the terrestrial realm, to a certain extent, we all rely on others. We all have people, supervisors, law enforcement, parents, etc., who we are under the authority of, people who make and enforce the rules. I dont feel this authority or these rules are established so that people can Lord over me (or at least they shouldn't be) They are there for the good of all under them and if we don't follow them (if we do not properly honor them) there are unpleasant consequenses.
The same is true in the celestial realm except that instead of "just another human being" setting the standards to be followed it is God. While mans rules and standards may be flawed, God's are perfect, designed to work in perfect harmony with His righteous plan for us to be united with Him in heaven. And just as in the terreatrial realm, there are unpleasant consequenses for ignoring or rebelling (not properly honoring) against the established standards.
Satan himself rebelled against the authority of God and was cast out of heaven (Luke 10:18 "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven")


There is a spiritual battle between good and evil for the mind, heart and soul of man. My suggestion, for what it's worth, is don't let pride come between you and God especially since it's yours and not His. Drop your guard for a minute and give an honest look into this possibility as it may have eternal ramifications.



Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
Let this blest assurance control,
That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
And hath shed his own blood for my soul.

[Guru of Nothing]

3.Those who act like it's a virtue to render themselves irrelevant, and enjoy their view from the peanut gallery.

7.Those that are stupid.

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif

[Nbadan]

Who wouldn't? I love the teachings of Jesus (with the exlusion of the son of god etc. I know you think that is the most important part of the teachings, but I disagree) and agree that you should love your fellow man.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think Manny was referring to the millions of people who worship Buda, Hindu, or one of the other monotheistic world religions.

[MannyIsGod]

Joch, yes, part of the equation is my pride. But to say that there is no pride on the end of the partnership that consists of a being demanding worship, is spin and pure spin. Not amount of justification will change that. The difference is that you feel it is justified due to God creating us, and I do not feel it is justified because I see a contradiction.

Dan, I was reading today about many parrelles between Budda and Jesus. It is very interesting.

[smeagol]

From what I read, Buddhisim and Christianity a far apart with respect to their philosophies.

[jochhejaam]

Joch, yes, part of the equation is my pride. But to say that there is no pride on the end of the partnership that consists of a being demanding worship, is spin and pure spin. Not amount of justification will change that. The difference is that you feel it is justified due to God creating us, and I do not feel it is justified because I see a contradiction.


I believe a big part of our differences is perspective. I have a personal relationship with God and with Jesus Christ and that is because I have responded to their desire for me to ask them and their Holy presence to reside within me. Anyone who so desires can have this perspective and it's an eye opener. It's a life changing perspective and one which I hope you someday will have.

(Just a few scriptures to try to verify the perspective gap).

24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,[a] tell us plainly."

25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,

26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and the Father are one."



"If you meet me and forget me, you have lost nothing.
If you meet Christ and forget Him, you have lost everything".

[MannyIsGod]

Ok, god knows who is going to be damned. Omnicense again. So is it really possible for a person who is going to be damned to choose to have a personal relationship with God?

[jochhejaam]

So is it really possible for a person who is going to be damned to choose to have a personal relationship with God?



That's an unusual question but it's easily answered...scripture says that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man so to get that personal relationship with God you would have accepted Jesus as His Son.

No one need be damned.
John 3:17 God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.