Raffy nailed on the juice

[King]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/orioles/2005-08-01-palmeiro-suspension_x.htm

Palmeiro suspended for drug policy violation
By Hal Bodley, USA TODAY
Baltimore Orioles first baseman Rafael Palmeiro, who testified before Congress on March 17 that he'd never used steroids, was suspended by Commissioner Bud Selig on Monday for 10 games for violating baseball's drug policy. (Related video: Palmeiro testifies before Congress)
Rafael Palmeiro is one of four players to amass 3,000 career hits and 500 career home runs.
By Elaine Thompson, AP

The announcement was made prior to the Orioles 12:35 p.m. ET game at Camden Yards against the Chicago White Sox.

Palmeiro, whose 567 career home runs and 3,018 hits make him a leading candidate for the Hall of Fame five years after he retires, immediately appealed the disciplinary action.

Palmeiro, who passed 3,000 hits this season, is the seventh major leaguer suspended under baseball's new drug program that became effective in March. He by far has the highest profile of any of the previous players disciplined.

Palmeiro during the highly publicized March 17 hearing on steroids conducted by the House of Representatives Government Reform Committee said, under oath, he'd never used steroids even though former Texas Rangers teammate Jose Canseco said otherwise in his book, Juiced.

Palmeiro's statement: "Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. My name is Rafael Palmeiro and I am a professional baseball player. I'll be brief in my remarks today. Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids. Period. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never. The reference to me in Mr. Canseco's book is absolutely false. I am against the use of steroids. I don't think athletes should use steroids and I don't think our kids should use them. That point of view is one, unfortunately, that is not shared by our former colleague, Jose Canseco. Mr. Canseco is an unashamed advocate for increased steroid use by all athletes."

Palmeiro, 40, signed a one-year contract with the Orioles for 2004 that paid him $4.15 million. The Orioles exercised an option for 2005 at $3 million.

Unless reversed, the suspension will cost Palmeiro $165,746.

In 103 games this season Palmeiro is batting .280, with 18 homers and 59 runs batted in. Palmeiro had one hit in the Orioles' 9-4 loss to the White Sox in Sunday night's nationally televised game.

When he collected his 3,000th hit on July 15 off Seattle's Joel Pineiro, Palmeiro joined Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Eddie Murray as the only players in baseball history with at least 3,000 hits and 500 home runs.

Saturday, during a press conference in Cooperstown, N.Y., new members Wade Boggs and Ryne Sandberg both said Palmiero should — and will — be inducted into the Hall of Fame.

[Jimcs50]

Source says Palmeiro will be suspendedESPN.com news services
Related Video:
Lopez gives up eight runs in first two innings

Baltimore Orioles first baseman Rafael Palmeiro will be suspended by Major League Baseball for violating the league's steroids policy, ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney has confirmed with a league source.


Rafael Palmeiro
First Base
Baltimore Orioles
Profile


2005 SEASON STATISTICS
GM HR RBI R OBP AVG
103 18 59 46 .354 .280




Palmeiro, who recently got his 3,000th career hit, was noted for his emotional denial of steroid use before a Congressional panel in March, would be the latest player suspended under the league's new drug policy.

The image of Palmeiro taking a sweet swing from the left side of the plate has been replaced in some minds by the sight of him testifying before a House committee investigating steroids in baseball.

The hearing included testimony from Jose Canseco, who in his book cited Palmeiro and several other players as steroid users. Palmeiro emphatically denies using the performance-enhancing drug, but the Baltimore Orioles' first baseman can't deny how perceptions have changed.

"In my opinion, everyone that plays baseball in this era has been tainted," Palmeiro said during spring training. "Not just the people that he has named in the book, I think this whole era over the last 10, 15 or 20 years has been tainted. Regardless of whether you did or you didn't do anything, this whole era will have that label."


Information from The Associated Press was used in this report

[Jimcs50]

I guess Jose was right.

Maybe people will stop calling Canseco a liar now.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Okay, I think we can probably end all that HOF talk right about now.

[whottt]

Boom...he just destroyed his entire career...he's a liar and a cheat.

I can't believe I was a fan of this guy.

[atlfan25]

:lmao this is great
dude got busted cold

[samikeyp]

Oops.

Damn, Raffy. I was pulling for you too.

[TheAdmiral#50]

Oh No! I have to believe it was some sort of supplement that had an illegal substance in it.

He can not possibly be that stupid because at the hearings, Palmeiro really came out looking the best. He did play with Canseco in Texas though, so Never underestimate how stupid some people can be I guess.

Too bad, one of my fav players. :(

[HotAssComic]

Okay, I think we can probably end all that HOF talk right about now.

I never started HOF talks... this guy was really good but no Hall of Famer. You never feared Raffy coming to your stadium as a hitter. The guy put up good numbers... but never will be remembered as a LETHAL THREAT at the plate... I'll remember him more for those stupid Viagra commercials than anything else...

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

How the fuck do you get busted with all the hype going on right now?

Plus, you were in front of Congress! How stupid can you be?

[Taco]

Oops.

Damn, Raffy. I was pulling for you too.


Was this after the "Little Blue Pill?!?!?! :lol

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I never started HOF talks...

I'm glad to know you can answer a statement that wasn't addressed to anybody in particular.

[samikeyp]

Was this after the "Little Blue Pill?!?!?! :lol

sick bastard.

:lol

[Taco]

sick bastard.

:lol
:lmao

[ObiwanGinobili]

damn it!
And I love him too....

but now I feel as tho he has taken that love, tied it to the back of a truck and dragged it down the road. :depressed.
bastard.

[FromWayDowntown]

Hmmm, we talked (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10346) about this before.

[TheAdmiral#50]

How the fuck do you get busted with all the hype going on right now?

Plus, you were in front of Congress! How stupid can you be?

My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if it's anything more than a supplement, that he didn't know had a banned substance in it.

[atlfan25]

My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't be surprised if it's anything more than a supplement, that he didn't know had a banned substance in it.
If so then he is easily a moron, with all eyes on the steroid issue in baseball he doesn't take the time to see what substances are banned and cross check them with shit he is taking?

But they are saying it is steroids and not just a banned substance on espn.

[whottt]

HotAssComic...WTF are you talking about?

His numbers are fucking HOF worthy...it's assinine to say they aren't.

But if he did steroids that's another thing entirely.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

HotAssComic...WTF are you talking about?

His numbers are fucking HOF worthy...it's assinine to say they aren't.

But if he did steroids that's another thing entirely.

I agree with Whottt on that point.

HAC says he didn't "scare" anybody when he came to their ballpark.

If my 4-foot-10 mom came into the ballpark with the numbers Raffy put up, you better be scared that she's going to drive in runs.

[Kori Ellis]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's anything more than a supplement, that he didn't know had a banned substance in it.

If that's the case, he's still a frickin' idiot. You can't go in front of the world and say you didn't take steroids and then be stupid enough to not know what's inside the supplements that you are taking.

Moron.

Sorry Whottt, one of your heroes has fallen.

[samikeyp]

His numbers are fucking HOF worthy...it's assinine to say they aren't.

But if he did steroids that's another thing entirely.

agreed.

[Kori Ellis]

He's on ESPN (via telephone) right now reading his prepared statement :rolleyes

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

If that's the case, he's still a frickin' idiot. You can't go in front of the world and say you didn't take steroids and then be stupid enough to not know what's inside the supplements that you are taking.



But, but Barry says he didn't know what was in those creams he took.

I hope Barry Bonds has to have a continuous drain of his knee for the rest of his life.

Asshole.

[TheAdmiral#50]

Maybe Pudge Rodriguez and Sammy Sosa are next. I'm a Pudge fan, but it's obvious that he was juicing IMO, after the total body transformation he underwent in the offseason.

[Spurminator]

This sucks.

That's my analysis.

[whottt]

If that's the case, he's still a frickin' idiot. You can't go in front of the world and say you didn't take steroids and then be stupid enough to not know what's inside the supplements that you are taking.

Moron.

Sorry Whottt, one of your heroes has fallen.


Old news, we already had this debate 5 months ago.

The only thing this added to it is the fact that he can tell a boldfaced lie while he is cheating.

There is a difference between defending his numbers as hall worthy, and defending steroid usage and lying....

[whottt]

Palmeiro's statement from MLB.com:




Statement from Rafael Palmeiro



Orioles Headlines

• Palmeiro suspended 10 days by MLB
• Orioles stand pat as deadline passes
• Orioles go down early vs. Sox
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Thank you very much for joining me on this call today. I am saddened that we are here to address this issue, but because of the importance of it, I feel the need to make a brief statement and address your questions. At the outset, let me say that under the rules of the basic agreement and the order of the independent arbitrator, there is an order of confidentiality governing the specifics of this case. I will attempt to state as much as I can and be as forthright as possible, but there will be issues I can't address based on orders imposed on me by the basic agreement and the arbitration process.
I am here to make it very clear that I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period.

When I found out that I failed a test under the new drug policy, I filed a grievance and challenged the suspension on the basis that I have never intentionally taken a banned substance. Ultimately, although I never intentionally put a banned substance into my body - the independent arbitrator ruled that I had to be suspended under the terms of the program.

I am sure you will ask how I tested positive for a banned substance. As I look back, I don't have a specific answer to give. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to explain to the arbitrator how the banned substance entered my body. The arbitrator did not find that I used a banned substance intentionally - in fact, he said he found my testimony to be compelling - but he ruled that I could not meet the heavy burden imposed on players who test positive under the new drug policy.

I accept this punishment and want to address it publicly. I want to apologize to MLB, the Baltimore Orioles organization, my teammates, and most of all, my fans. Given my role with the No Tolerance Committee and my relationships with Congress, I feel the need to communicate a serious message to my fellow players and to kids everywhere. All of us have to be responsible and exercise extreme care in what we put in our body. I hope that all MLB players and kids will learn from what has happened to me. I have never intentionally used a banned substance, but I unfortunately wasn't careful enough.

I take my role as a professional athlete seriously. I love baseball and have great respect for all of the players who played before me. I have always done my best to live each day in ways that would make my family proud. Everything I have accomplished is the result of hard work and dedication to being the best possible player I can be.

I feel terrible that this has happened, but I think there is something to be gained from it. If my situation results in the education of current and future players about the dangers of taking anything without a prescription from a licensed physician -- that is a positive. At the end of the day, it is important for all players to understand the risk of contamination and to be very careful about what they put in their body.

This suspension is going to be incredibly difficult for me, my wife and my 2 boys. Over the next week and a half, I am going to spend time with my family. I am going to come back and will be as determined as ever to help the Orioles win this pennant race that we are in. We have worked very hard to be in a position to bring our fans a title, and I will not let this be a distraction.

Finally, I would like to thank Commissioner Selig and Mr. Angelos for their strong words of encouragement. I had the opportunity to speak with both of them and I am extremely appreciative of their support and friendship.


http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20050801&content_id=1153541&vkey=pr_bal&fext=.jsp&c_id=bal

[samikeyp]

so do you think this will keep him out of the Hall?

[KEDA]

so do you think this will keep him out of the Hall?


YOU BET!!!


I was a HUGE Raffy fan, until today :(


Raffy can choke on a little blue pill!!!!


take the HOF plaque and toss it in the fire to keep the light bright enough to shoot yourseelf in the ass one more time!

[whottt]

I don't feel real compelled to see him make the HOF if he did steroids...I have the same attitude about Bonds, Sosa and McGwire...

Cheating does that...it just kinda makes you not care and distrust all the players...that's the reason that they shouldn't go into the HOF...

I mean if you look at Palmeiro...he doesn't looks like a steroid user...he's skinny, he's durable, he doesn't have problems with agression(I've never even seen him argue with an umpire over a call)...if he's on them than anyone could be on them.

Barring a better explanation than..." I don't know how they got into my system", he shouldn't make the Hall...because it's just a downer and a negative.


That sounds like the lies I used to tell my parents back in highschool when they'd find my stash.....Uh, I dunno where it came from...one of my friends must have left it here.

[timvp]

Whottt's hero goes down in flames. First he should apologize to Jose Canseco. Obviosly, Canseco wasn't BSing when he said he saw Raffy take steroids. He wasn't really a power hitter until Canseco came to Texas. That should have been the red flag right there.

Raffy is a cheat. 3000 hits and 500 homeruns don't mean jack when you've been juiced for the last 13 years.

Whenever anyone says his name from now on, the first thing you'll think about is steroids. Nice job, Raffy. He should have just retired and saved some of his legacy.

Raffy for prez?

Yeah right.

[HotAssComic]

Palmeiro has made only four All-Star teams. Not once has Palmeiro been voted a starter. His highest MVP finish is fifth. Not once has he led the league in home runs, RBI or batting average...
Not the most dominant player of his era...
Palmeiro hasn't played in a World Series. In 22 postseason games, he has only four homers and eight RBI, with a .244 average. Not really THREATENING @ the plate...
and now with the Steroid report... even less Hall worthy... so he put up good numbers... but he's not Hall worthy...

[whottt]

Whottt's hero goes down in flames. First he should apologize to Jose Canseco. Obviosly, Canseco wasn't BSing when he said he saw Raffy take steroids. He wasn't really a power hitter until Canseco came to Texas. That should have been the red flag right there.

Raffy is a cheat. 3000 hits and 500 homeruns don't mean jack when you've been juiced for the last 13 years.

Whenever anyone says his name from now on, the first thing you'll think about is steroids. Nice job, Raffy. He should have just retired and saved some of his legacy.

Raffy for prez?

Yeah right.

Uh...I never said he was my hero, that was you that said that because I talked about how great his numbers are.

It doesn't bother me personally, I thought he was a great player, not a hero...and unfortunately he just cheated to do it...I think it's sad waste of career.

But go ahead and celebrate and don't let me put a damper on your glee....just let it be said:

What's bad for baseball is good for TimVP.

[Duff McCartney]

I say let him in the Hall of Fame...he deserves it. He just showed me how committed he is to being great...he's willing to destroy his body with steroids just to do it.

I like that dedication.

[whottt]

Palmeiro has made only four All-Star teams. Not once has Palmeiro been voted a starter.

That's a faggot argument. Seriously...it sounds like something girl would say...who started saying it? Skip Bayless?

I rest my case.



His highest MVP finish is fifth.

Big fucking deal...Ted Williams hit 400, and hit two triple crowns, he didn't win the MVP in any of those years. Lou Gehrig also hit a triple crown and didn't win the MVP.



Not once has he led the league in home runs, RBI or batting average...

Yet he put up the best RBI season by a left handed batter in 50 years...148 RBI is more than Thomas, Arod, Bagwell, Giambi, Griffey, McGwire or Bonds had...and his 47 homer total wasn't ever beaten by anyone that hasn't been accused of using steroids as well.



Not the most dominant player of his era...

So who was?

Barry Bonds? Well a lot of players wouldn't have been the dominant player of their era playing in the same era as Barry Bonds. Lou Gehrig wasn't as dominant as Babe Ruth and Joe Dimaggio wasn't as dominant as Ted Williams...didn't keep them out of the HOF.



Palmeiro hasn't played in a World Series.

So? You want a list of players who never did that are in the HOF? It's an impressive one.



In 22 postseason games, he has only four homers and eight RBI, with a .244 average.

Yet it smokes the living shit out of McGwire's post season numbers...and he's got a world series ring...



Not really THREATENING @ the plate...

Um...ask Roger Clemens if he's threatening at the plate...he's got more hits off of Clemens than anyone...the players are/were in awe of his swing...it's just the stupid fans and media that weren't.


It's the age of rate stat idiots...




and now with the Steroid report... even less Hall worthy...

That's all you had to say right there....I'd agree with you...but don't try and say his numbers themselves aren't hall worthy...because doing so only makes you look ignorant about the game...

The dude is right at 600 homers, 2000 RIB and 3000 hits in 19 years...those are HOF numbers in any fucking era...learn the history of the game and don't rely on faggot popularity contest arguments.

.

[kris]

"I am here to make it very clear that I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period."

What is it with R(i)P and the word period? Next time he gets busted, it will be something like "I never intended to use steroids when i was 12 and besides Jose Canseco admitted it first. PERIOD."

I'll give him this - he's a good stern lier. He'll be adamant and point his finger while he lies to show you how mad he is at these truthful allegations.

I'm sure there's a multitude of reasons why he said he never intentionally used steroids, but the main reason is if it is found out that he did, he will have committed perjury in a congressional hearing and would likely see some time.

At least McGwire kept his fat mouth shut.

[timvp]

Whottt, you claimed he was a top ten player ever. I said he was juiced.

Who was right?



P.S.

I'm not celebrating, but it's good that this finally become common knowledge. All one had to do was look at how he suddenly became a power hitter when Canseco joined the Rangers. He suddenly become Babe Ruth after the age of 30. Riiiiiight.

[kris]

I'm sure Sosa never did steroids. He denied it at the Congressional hearing right?

Big Mac, too, right? He was just exercising his 5th Amendment right. He's an American hero. He would never have taken steroids.

Baseball's superheroes are just victims of the media.

I'm sure Pudge Rodriguez never took anything either.

None of these guys would lie to the public. Not on purpose, at least.

Right? Right?

Baseball used to be so pure. I think it's right up there with race car driving in terms of validity now.

[whottt]

Whottt, you claimed he was a top ten player ever.

I don't remember saying he was a top 10 player ever.



I said he was juiced.Who was right?

You weren't saying he was juiced when we originally had the argument.





All one had to do was look at how he suddenly became a power hitter when Canseco joined the Rangers. He suddenly become Babe Ruth after the age of 30. Riiiiiight.

This is Raffy's AB/HR ratio through 84 games in 1987: 15.8...that's at the height of the second pitching dominated era...

At a park that is a notoriously tough HR park for left handed hitters(no Left Handed Cubs player has ever hit more than 41 HR in a season).


He averaged a HR every 15.8 AB through 84 games in his first regular season...he only bettered that 5 times the rest of his career...in a hitting era.

He then set the record for a left handed batter for the Rangers with 26 in 1991(and Arlington Stadium was a brutal pitchers park for LHB)

Both in a pitching era...both prior to Canseco joining the Rangers...he has a HR stroke...

He also lead the league in doubles prior to Canseco...matter of fact...the only times he ever lead the league in anything were prior to Canseco and in a pitchers era.

On top of that...the dude doesn't hit 600 foot homers like most of the other juicers do...he pulls them 350 or so in right field.

Still there's not really much to argue about now...but he showed power early in his career...it's a myth that he didn't have it...what changed was he became a dead pull hitter instead of an opposite field hitter...and he gave up BA to do it.

[kris]

I'd be making up execuses too if David got busted for something.

[FromWayDowntown]

Big fucking deal...Ted Williams hit 400, and hit two triple crowns, he didn't win the MVP in any of those years. Lou Gehrig also hit a triple crown and didn't win the MVP.

That's misleading. Williams didn't win the MVP in those seasons, but Williams won 2 MVP awards anyway (and was 2nd in each of the years you mention and on two other occasions as well), was a 5-time Sporting News Player of the Year, and was in the top 10 of MVP voting on 12 different occasions.

Williams is ridiculous, since the guy missed all or part of 5 seasons in the middle of his career to fight overseas. Williams is undisputedly in the Top 10 of all players, all time. Palmeiro would be a stretch to be in the Top 10 of his era.


...and his 47 homer total wasn't ever beaten by anyone that hasn't been accused of using steroids as well.

I'll assume the "wasn't ever" is meant to be "wasn't ever after Palmeiro." Still, that's just plain wrong:

I mean, I haven't heard (and have no suspicions) of steroid use by Alex Rodriguez, and ARod hit 57 homers in 2002, 52 in 2001, and 47 in 2003.

Adrian Beltre also had 48 last year.

Even if you just went with lefties, I'd be curious where the accusations are concerning Griffey, who exceeded 47 in 1996 (49), 1997 (56), 1998 (56), and 1999 (48), and Luis Gonzalez, who hit 57 in 2001, and Shawn Green, who hit 49 in 2001, and Todd Helton, who hit 49 in 2001. I've not read any accusations concerning any of those guys, all of whom are left-handed hitters. You could add Larry Walker, with 49 homers in 1997, and Todd Helton, with 49 homers in 2001, to that list, though I suppose you could discount those achievements as being attributable to a juiced ballpark.

Still, historically, your assertion doesn't hold water, whottt.

[whottt]

Who is making excuses?

Dude got nailed for Steroids...I already said it should keep him out of the Hall...

What's stupid is people saying...500 Homers AND 3000 hits isn't Hall Worthy...

And saying he had no power prior to meeting with Canseco is also a myth...he showed it and I just proved it. And he did change his hitting style.

That's the facts...but hey this dude used steroids and he lied about it...I don't think he belongs in the Hall of Fame and I think he hurt the game tremendously by doing this...

[kris]

I wouldn't say you proved it, but you definitely provided your version of the story.

One example: the no cubs left handed hitter having more than 41 hrs in wrigley that is supposedly so tough on left handers thing. How many power left handed hitters have the cubs had? How many players on there team throughout their history have even been left handers? What's the ratio - has to be something like 4-1. Even baseball's greatest left handers haven't hit that much more than 41 in a season.

What I'm proposing here is you've skewed facts to appear cohesive with your defensive stance on R(i)P.

[FromWayDowntown]

This is Raffy's AB/HR ratio through 84 games in 1987: 15.8...that's at the height of the second pitching dominated era...

At a park that is a notoriously tough HR park for left handed hitters(no Left Handed Cubs player has ever hit more than 41 HR in a season).

He averaged a HR every 15.8 AB through 84 games in his first regular season...he only bettered that 5 times the rest of his career...in a hitting era.

Again, though, that number doesn't jive with the period between 1988 and 1992, when his numbers were more like a HR every 34-35 AB over the next several hundred games. Palmeiro hit a lot of HR in one half season and then spent the next 5 full seasons nowhere close to that level of production. You point to a small sample as your proof; I think the rest of us point to the much larger sample as proof that you're wrong.



He also lead the league in doubles prior to Canseco...matter of fact...the only times he ever lead the league in anything were prior to Canseco and in a pitchers era.

What difference does that make? Brian Roberts lead the freakin' AL in doubles last year, but that doesn't prove that he's a power hitter.



Still there's not really much to argue about now...but he showed power early in his career...it's a myth that he didn't have it...

He showed power for one-half of one season of a 5 1/2 year stretch. Using your argument, one could make a more compelling argument that Brady Anderson was a great power hitter, based on his amazing full season in 1996 (when he averaged a HR per every 11.5 AB). Maybe Brady just decided to become a pull hitter that year. . . .


what changed was he became a dead pull hitter instead of an opposite field hitter...and he gave up BA to do it.

I don't know how much he truly sacrificed average. From 1986-1992, Palmeiro hit .296 (968/3270). From 1993-2001, he hit .293 (1517/5176). That is a 3 point drop-off -- not much of a sacrifice.

[whottt]

That's misleading. Williams didn't win the MVP in those seasons, but Williams won 2 MVP awards anyway (and was 2nd in each of the years you mention and on two other occasions as well), was a 5-time Sporting News Player of the Year, and was in the top 10 of MVP voting on 12 different occasions.


How is it misleading? Did Williams or did Williams not win the MVP in the seasons when he hit for a triple crown or 400?

Yes or no? I mislead nothing...that tells you all you need to know about the validity of MVP voting...

How in the fuck can you say a guy that won a triple crown didn't deserve the MVP? Was he doing less to help his team than someone who did less than he did?


Williams is ridiculous, since the guy missed all or part of 5 seasons in the middle of his career to fight overseas. Williams is undisputedly in the Top 10 of all players, all time. Palmeiro would be a stretch to be in the Top 10 of his era.

Where did I say Palmeiro was as good of a hitter as Ted Williams?

But since you argue the point...he also did it prior to integration...

Do you see any fat guy knocking in 715 HR while batting 344% for a career these days?

Do you see anyone batting 400 these days?

What about winning 30 games in a season?

Back then all the best players did not playing in the same league...

And guess what? Those guys cheated back then too...they threw the World Series remember?





I'll assume the "wasn't ever" is meant to be "wasn't ever after Palmeiro." Still, that's just plain wrong:

I mean, I haven't heard (and have no suspicions) of steroid use by Alex Rodriguez, and ARod hit 57 homers in 2002, 52 in 2001, and 47 in 2003.

I have heard them.




Adrian Beltre also had 48 last year.

Yeah? And Barry Bonds hit 73 a few years ago...what's your point?


Even if you just went with lefties, I'd be curious where the accusations are concerning Griffey, who exceeded 47 in 1996 (49), 1997 (56), 1998 (56), and 1999 (48),

LOL...go read the side effects of steroid usage...Griffey Jr's career and appearance is the poster boy for steroid usage...just like McGwire, Sosa, Canseco and Bonds...

Those guys bodies all started to break down...Raffy's never did, it still hasn't.




and Luis Gonzalez, who hit 57 in 2001,

And nothing about that seems strange to you?

You have zero common sense...


Why don't you throw Brady Anderson's name out there as well to prove your point...:fuckenrolleyes


and Shawn Green, who hit 49 in 2001,



and Todd Helton, who hit 49 in 2001. I've not read any accusations concerning any of those guys, all of whom are left-handed hitters. You could add Larry Walker, with 49 homers in 1997, and Todd Helton, with 49 homers in 2001, to that list, though I suppose you could discount those achievements as being attributable to a juiced ballpark.

And I'd say that if you study the side effect of steroids every guy you named shows more evidence of roid side effects than Palmeiro.


And don't forget Jim Thome as well...


Still, historically, your assertion doesn't hold water, whottt.

It holds as much water as you want it too...

[timvp]

I don't remember saying he was a top 10 player ever.

Yeah just like Raffy can't remember taking steroids. :rolleyes


You weren't saying he was juiced when we originally had the argument.

Both you and Raffy can't remember anything now. That wasn't water Raffy was shooting into his veins.


This is Raffy's AB/HR ratio through 84 games in 1987: 15.8...that's at the height of the second pitching dominated era...

Through 84 games :rollin

Yeah great sample there. Hint: A lot of young hitters can hit homers early in their career because pitchers don't know how to pitch to them. Once a scouting report is built, then you can start looking at things like AB/HR.

Kevin Maas had 21 homers in 79 games in 1990. How much did that mean a couple years later?


At a park that is a notoriously tough HR park for left handed hitters(no Left Handed Cubs player has ever hit more than 41 HR in a season).

Yeah, neither did Raffy. Or Kevin Maas for that matter.


He averaged a HR every 15.8 AB through 84 games in his first regular season...he only bettered that 5 times the rest of his career...in a hitting era.

Yeah and Glover averaged 10 steals per 48 minutes. Why did the Spurs waive that phenom?


He then set the record for a left handed batter for the Rangers with 26 in 1991(and Arlington Stadium was a brutal pitchers park for LHB)

Wow. :jack

Gonzalez had 27 homers. Sierra had 25 homers. Freakin' Kevin Reimer (another lefty) had 20 homers in 250 less at bats. That's a homer every 27 at bats for Raffy and a homer every 19 at bats for Reimer.

In other words, Raffy still wasn't a power hitter.


Both in a pitching era...both prior to Canseco joining the Rangers...he has a HR stroke...

Not as good of a HR stroke as freakin' Kevin "Kung Fu" Reimer.


He also lead the league in doubles prior to Canseco...matter of fact...the only times he ever lead the league in anything were prior to Canseco and in a pitchers era.

Yeah no kidding. He was a doubles hitter before he started juicing up.

Connect the dots.

Canseco, the human steroid, joins the Rangers and Raffy's HR career high goes up by almost 50%. Stop trying to ignore the facts.

Do you also wait for Santa to come down your chimney?


On top of that...the dude doesn't hit 600 foot homers like most of the other juicers do...he pulls them 350 or so in right field.

:lol

How do other home run hitters do it. They're all pull hitters. Do you watch baseball?

Nice job defending a cheat. People like you enabled Raffy to become the cheat he is and always has been. Just because he has a sweet swing and isn't bursting with muscles doesn't mean he wasn't juiced. But people like you had his back and have created the steroid ridden creature we see before us.

Congrats.

[samikeyp]

was it the cream...or was it the clear? :lol

[King]

Damn LJ -- Kevin Maas and Kevin Reimer? You're pulling out the big guns.

I haven't thought about those guys in about 12 years.

[King]

The only reason I think Raffy may not have known he was taking steroids, is because surely nobody can be stupid enough to go in front of Congress and deny taking them, then return to baseball under the most scrutiny/harshest testing ever, and still take steroids.

Nobody, right?

[timvp]

Damn LJ -- Kevin Maas and Kevin Reimer? You're pulling out the big guns.

I haven't thought about those guys in about 12 years.

:lol

I was a Rangers fan during the Ruben Sierra era. When they traded him for Canseco, I wanted nothing to do with his steroid azz. That's when I switched to being an Expos fan.

Now the Expos died and I don't have a favorite team :depressed

[whottt]

Again, though, that number doesn't jive with the period between 1988 and 1992, when his numbers were more like a HR every 34-35 AB over the next several hundred games. Palmeiro hit a lot of HR in one half season and then spent the next 5 full seasons nowhere close to that level of production. You point to a small sample as your proof; I think the rest of us point to the much larger sample as proof that you're wrong.


Yeah? Well there's not subsitute for being there...I was a Ranger fan back then...and not only did I see the transformation...I was there when the trade happened...

You know what Don Zimmer said when they traded him(this was Palmeiro's manager with the Cubs)...

"He'd rather hit an opposite field single than pull the ball for a double"..

You ever watch Palmeiro now?

They employ the Ted Williams shift against him...yes that is the third baseman playing shortstop in that defensive shift...That if a defensive shift used against extreme pull hitters..

Those are the details.

So you guys are wrong. He did change his batting stance.

He also won a triple crown in College...you cannot do that without hitting home runs.







What difference does that make? Brian Roberts lead the freakin' AL in doubles last year, but that doesn't prove that he's a power hitter.

Doubles are power...they are just aren't HR power but you can't hit them being a slap hitter.





He showed power for one-half of one season of a 5 1/2 year stretch.

He showed it in College...he showed it early. He's a different hitter now than he was then...he was not a pull hitter then.

He became one after the Cubs traded him for not being one.



Using your argument, one could make a more compelling argument that Brady Anderson was a great power hitter, based on his amazing full season in 1996 (when he averaged a HR per every 11.5 AB). Maybe Brady just decided to become a pull hitter that year. . . .

Again...Anderson's season is much more indicative of roid usage than doing it for 13 years...there has never been any claim that roids make you consistent...I guess there is now.





I don't know how much he truly sacrificed average. From 1986-1992, Palmeiro hit .296 (968/3270). From 1993-2001, he hit .293 (1517/5176). That is a 3 point drop-off -- not much of a sacrifice.

Huh? He hit over 300 3 times his first 6 years in the league(and came in second and third in batting races)...in a pitchers park, in a pitching era...and he's only hit over 300 3 times in the ensuing 14 years since...in a hitters era.

How can you escape the obvious conclusion? He's not as good of an average hitter now as he was when he was when he was an opposite field hitter...my guess is because he hits into a shift..



Here is the deal...

Prior to roid usage...

He had his career highs in hits, doubles, run scored and more 300 BA seasons...in a pitchers era...




So basically you are saying steroids made him a worse hitter...

That argument makes a lot of sense...

[timvp]

The only reason I think Raffy may not have known he was taking steroids, is because surely nobody can be stupid enough to go in front of Congress and deny taking them, then return to baseball under the most scrutiny/harshest testing ever, and still take steroids.

Nobody, right?

Well if you are going for 3000 hits and trying to reach 600 homers, some players would stoop to whatever level it took to acheive those goals. Especially players like Raffy who have a history of juicing up. He was dirty and a liar to begin with.

Now he goes down in history as probably the most stupid sportsmen ever. It'd be like if baseball let Pete Rose back in and then he started gambling again halfway through the season.

[FromWayDowntown]

I have heard them.

Where? When you decided to suggest that Palmeiro is the premeire power hitter of his generation? Did you whisper it to yourself or something? I have never, ever heard anyone seriously suggest that ARod is juiced. If you can point me to something printed (or even something written that wasn't written by you) to support your argument, I'll listen.


Yeah? And Barry Bonds hit 73 a few years ago...what's your point?

Again, my point is that Beltre exceeded 47, and that you haven't brought forward any evidence that he was juiced. Beltre exceeded 47 in the first year of testing (though testing without severe penalties).


LOL...go read the side effects of steroid usage...Griffey Jr's career and appearance is the poster boy for steroid usage...just like McGwire, Sosa, Canseco and Bonds...

Sure. So now your evidence is surmise. As with ARod, I've never read or heard anything that points the finger of steroid use at Griffey. Somehow, Griffey's skeletal injuries for running into walls don't strike me as possible side-effects of steroids. Likewise, the number of muscular injuries that Griffey has sustained are explained with equal plausibility by the fact that had a single muscular injury that never fully healed. As with ARod, if you can point me to some written discussion that Griffey was/is juiced, I'll listen.


And nothing about that seems strange to you?

You have zero common sense...

I didn't say it wasn't anomalous. But I also have read, elsewhere in this thread I think, that others don't suspect that Gonzo was juiced. Gonzo isn't a name that's often thrown out in these discussions. . . .


Why don't you throw Brady Anderson's name out there as well to prove your point...:fuckenrolleyes

. . . .but Brady's is.



And don't forget Jim Thome as well...

I left Thome off the list, because I have read accusations about him.



It holds as much water as you want it too...

Other than being factually wrong, you make an excellent point.

[Horry For 3!]

Damn, that sucks. I just read that on Yahoo Sports before here.

[timvp]

Here is the deal...

Prior to roid usage...

He had his career highs in hits, doubles, run scored and more 300 BA seasons...in a pitchers era...

:lmao

Now whottt is just making crap up. I know it's an emotional day for you but at least come with facts.

Raffy's career high in runs scored came after steroids. He had three .300 years before steroids and after steroids. Counting .290 and up, he had three prior and five after.

He had his career high in hits and doubles before steroids, but there are obvious reasons why. First of all, he started pulling the ball going for homers. That'll lower anyone's hits and doubles. Second of all, pitchers started pitching around him because his juiced azz was hitting a lot more homers. So even though he had less hits, he had a higher batting average AFTER steroids. Plus his AB/Doubles were comparable before and after steroids.

Oops.

Before steroids, Raffy never had a 90 RBI season. After steroids, he had ten seasons of more than 100 RBI. :lol

He also set career highs for BA, OBP, SLG, OPS and even SB after steroids.

Face it, without steroids he would have gone down as doubles hitting first baseman that would have been out of the league ten years ago.

[whottt]

Yeah just like Raffy can't remember taking steroids. :rolleyes

Um...this argument started during a chat when we were having baseball trivia and it concerned IcemanCometh saying Frank Robinson was the greatest hitter from the state of Texas...

You remember...it was the night you were saying a relative of yours invented the knuckleball...

Palmeiro had not been accused of taking steroids by Canseco at that time...

Is that memory good enough for you?





Through 84 games :rollin

Yeah great sample there. Hint: A lot of young hitters can hit homers early in their career because pitchers don't know how to pitch to them. Once a scouting report is built, then you can start looking at things like AB/HR.

It's evidence of power....




Kevin Maas had 21 homers in 79 games in 1990. How much did that mean a couple years later?

Yeah? And Reimer had power...he just couldn't hit.





Gonzalez had 27 homers. Sierra had 25 homers. Freakin' Kevin Reimer (another lefty) had 20 homers in 250 less at bats. That's a homer every 27 at bats for Raffy and a homer every 19 at bats for Reimer.

So since that rate is much better than the 1 homer every 79 AB he had the previous year...I guess you have proved he was on roids in 1991 as well.


In other words, Raffy still wasn't a power hitter.

The hell he wasn't...what you neglect to see is that he also hit 49 fucking doubles that year...he was second in the AL in extra base hits and 6th in SLG%.




Not as good of a HR stroke as freakin' Kevin "Kung Fu" Reimer.



Yeah no kidding. He was a doubles hitter before he started juicing up.

So let me get your point here...

Steroids make you a better player...but they just incidentally decrease your BA, your doubles, and your hits....


Connect the dots.

Canseco, the human steroid, joins the Rangers and Raffy's HR career high goes up by almost 50%.Stop trying to ignore the facts.


Um...his HR high improved from 26 to 37....

That's not exacxtly a freak improvement...would you like a list of players that had a greater improvement?




How do other home run hitters do it. They're all pull hitters. Do you watch baseball?

Do you? I gurantee you Palmeiro is the most extreme pull hitter in MLB...

And if you notice he doesn't get 200 hits and 49 doubles in a season like he did before Canseco.



Nice job defending a cheat.

Where did I defend him?



People like you enabled Raffy to become the cheat he is and always has been. Just because he has a sweet swing and isn't bursting with muscles doesn't mean he wasn't juiced. But people like you had his back and have created the steroid ridden creature we see before us.

Congrats.

Yeah...we should all be more like you and go on witchunts and make accusations without proof...that's the American way isn't it...Guilty until proven innocent.

[whottt]

Oh...and AJ sucks dicks too...

The little Napoleon stands 4'1 and weighs 140, yet can benchpress 900 LBS...nothing to indicate steroid usage there now is there?

Sorry...I tried to hold off but you are taking some cheap shots and you are just a little too happy about Palmeiro's demise and the blackeye it gave baseball.

[samikeyp]

IMO, I don't know if this permanently ends his chance at the HOF but it puts a serious hole into it. If I had a vote...I would not vote for him.

[timvp]

Um...this argument started during a chat when we were having baseball trivia and it concerned IcemanCometh saying Frank Robinson was the greatest hitter from the state of Texas...

You remember...it was the night you were saying a relative of yours invented the knuckleball...

Palmeiro had not been accused of taking steroids by Canseco at that time...

Is that memory good enough for you?

Yeah, I said he was juiced. You were comparing him to Ted Williams. Remember?



It's evidence of power....

And what was Kevin Maas?


Yeah? And Reimer had power...he just couldn't hit.

Raffy could hit but didn't have power. Until juice.


So since that rate is much better than the 1 homer every 79 AB he had the previous year...I guess you have proved he was on roids in 1991 as well.

Check 1992.


The hell he wasn't...what you neglect to see is that he also hit 49 fucking doubles that year...he was second in the AL in extra base hits and 6th in SLG%.

Doubles does not equal power? What type of baseball do you watch?


So let me get your point here...

Steroids make you a better player...but they just incidentally decrease your BA, your doubles, and your hits....

Are you reading what I'm posting? He had a better BA, more hits/AB and as good of doubles/AB AFTER steroids.

Steroids let him hit more homers, get more RBIs, increase his BA, continue his doubles hitting and get even more hits.


Um...his HR high improved from 26 to 37....

Actually it was 22 to 37 in one year. He also had more ABs the year he hit 22. His average fell to .268. He was desperate and turned to steroids.

His three years before steroids were pretty consistent with how good the pitchers were in the league that year. In '90, the team hit 110 and he hit 14. In '91, the team hit 177 and he hit 26. In '92, the team hit 159 and he hit 22.

It wasn't until the next year that he started creaming up and hitting the ball out of the park at rates that no one could ever expect. Except you, of course.

:rolleyes


That's not exacxtly a freak improvement...would you like a list of players that had a greater improvement?

Again, his homerun numbers followed the course of his team ... until steroids.


Do you? I gurantee you Palmeiro is the most extreme pull hitter in MLB...

Yeah, so? That's cuz he's juiced up and look for number 600.


And if you notice he doesn't get 200 hits and 49 doubles in a season like he did before Canseco.

Yeah he's only had a year of .324, 47 homers and 148 RBI. In other words, he almost had as many homers as he had doubles. Plus he got more hits/AB than he ever did.

Also, try this on for size. Take that year (1999), and subtract his homeruns from his hits. Then see how many doubles he had per hits that weren't homeruns. The answer is a double every 3.5 non-homerun at bats.

In 1991 when he had 49 doubles, he had a double every 3.6 non-homerun at bats. So Raffy become a better homerun hitter and a better doubles hitter ... not to mention a better hitter overall (BA, OBP, SLG, OPS).


Where did I defend him?

"I never defended Raffy. Never. Period."

:rollin


Yeah...we should all be more like you and go on witchunts and make accusations without proof...that's the American way isn't it...Guilty until proven innocent.

When it's that obvious, all one has to do is use a couple brain cells to figure it out. Don't hate me because you believed in the sweet stroke. He was juiced. It was obvious.

Sorry.

[timvp]

You get no AJ bashing for the rest of the summer for coming clean on my rightness.


Oh...and AJ sucks dicks too...


"I have never used steroids. Period."

http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/mlb/2005/0801/photo/g_palmeiro2_372.jpg


Rafael Palmeiro was suspended 10 days for violating Major League Baseball's steroids policy.

:smokin

[spurster]

Probably half the league was using steriods at some point. Baseball has always been a game of getting away with cheating if you could. Spitballs, loaded bats, and nowadays apparently lipreaders forcing pitcher and catchers to talk through their gloves. It was beyond stupid to continue to do it, but not special condemnation.

[Horry For 3!]

Rafael Palmeiro fucked up pretty good. He fucked himself over BIG TIME.

[Horry For 3!]

He also lied to Congress. ouch.

[Spurminator]

They can't prove he lied to Congress, though, because this punishment is for a brand new incident. Technically, it doesn't prove anything about his career, though common sense dictates that if he used them this year (even accidentally) he probably used them (even accidentally) in the past.

[Duff McCartney]

I just think it's hilarious how defiant and how big of a tough guy he was trying to act like when he was in front of Congress and now look at him.

Where's your messiah now?!?!?!?!

[kris]

Whott, I don't know why you won't admit to defending Rafeal Palmiero. Not only do you not conceed any points, but you skew facts trying to be right. I guess it hurts when you find out the truth about your deceitful idol.

[tlongII]

I saw Palmeiro get his 3,000th hit in Seattle a couple weeks ago and saved my ticket stub. Should I throw it away now?

I've never had any doubt that Palmeiro was on the juice. I believe at least 50% of all major leaguers have been on the juice at some of their careers.

[2centsworth]

I wish is wasn't true, but the guy tested positive. He was the focal point of all the controversy so it's hard for me to believe he took something without knowing it contained steroids.

Sucks because I was rooting for him.

[pooh]

It's sad they busted him, but you kind of knew it was coming eventually. Since Bonds is out of the picture for the time being and Sosa/Giambi/Pudge are putting up sub average numbers just shifted everything over towards him. What makes it worse was that he went up front to Congress and did his best Bill Clinton and denied.

Should he go into the hall? More than likely yes, he will...right along with the Bonds, Sosa's and McGuire's, etc. Baseball is all about numbers and unfortunately, due to them wanting an advantage, they took a short cut and now it's going to catch them (or caught as the case for Raffy is), in the end they'll eventually pay for it, (health wise, etc) so give them their little moment cause after all that happens, that is what it will be...just a small moment instead of something unforgettable, like what Sandberg and Boggs experienced this past weekend.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I heard Canseco on the Dan Patrick show earlier today and he thought it was either a steroid "footprint" left over from the time before the policy was in place or that MLB was setting him up - like they switched samples or something.

So for some strange reason that Canseco is right about the footprint and that's what it was, then he did lie to Congress.

[N.Y. Johnny]

he should have pulled a juan gonzalez before congress

no hablo ingles


Don't forget Sammy Sosa also did that to some extent.


Also on the heels of this controversy, the Biggest fuckin Juicer Barry Bonds now has announced that he's not comin back this year to play.

Probably cause he figures he'll get nailed himself sooner or later.


If these guys all are PROVEN to be juiced the ones in the hall should be thrown out and then the ones setting records should have them stripped away and not acknowledged.

You keep Pete Rose out for being a fuckin disgrace for gambling on the games and to another extent under the same flag Shoeless Joe Jackson, but neither of those guys cheated with steroids as some others appear to have been doing so.

[whottt]

Yeah, I said he was juiced.



You were comparing him to Ted Williams. Remember?

No...I don't remember you saying he was juiced. In fact the first person I remember saying he was juiced was IcemanCometh and it was after that chat.

And I suppose your idea that I compared him to Ted Williams is the same as FromWayDownTown's...IE not at all...if I just mention a players name you automatically assume I am comparing them...

Ice asked who was the greatest player from the state of Texas and his answer was Frank Robinson...and I had a problem with him saying that.

I compared Frank Robinson's numbers to Palmeiro's....and guess what? They are very similar...in fact they are virtually identical.





And what was Kevin Maas?

Why do you keep bringing up Kevin Mass?




Raffy could hit but didn't have power.

False...he showed power early on in his career...and you have yet to excuse it in a non contradictory way.






Check 1992.

And what does 1992 prove?

That he stepped back?

Geez...that's only like...every other player in MLB history.




Doubles does not equal power? What type of baseball do you watch?

Doubles do equal power...XBH are power hits and some of the guys that have hit the ball the hardest in MLB history...were doubles hitters.






Are you reading what I'm posting? He had a better BA, more hits/AB and as good of doubles/AB AFTER steroids.

Steroids let him hit more homers, get more RBIs, increase his BA, continue his doubles hitting and get even more hits.

False...what kind of baseball do you watch?

The kind I watch AB's are altered by base on balls and are not truly indicative of how often a guy came to the plate.




Actually it was 22 to 37 in one year.

What kind of baseball do you watch?


If must not be the kind that Roger Maris, Griffey Jr and Babe Ruth played...



He also had more ABs the year he hit 22. His average fell to .268. He was desperate and turned to steroids.

So if a guy hits fewer HR in more AB and his average falls...he uses steroids?

Brilliant. Again...you have just indicted 99% of the players who ever played the game.


His three years before steroids were pretty consistent with how good the pitchers were in the league that year. In '90, the team hit 110 and he hit 14. In '91, the team hit 177 and he hit 26. In '92, the team hit 159 and he hit 22.

So? That's relative to the hitter....if a guy hits 60 1 year and 70 the next it could also track the teams performance.




It wasn't until the next year that he started creaming up and hitting the ball out of the park at rates that no one could ever expect. Except you, of course.

:rolleyes

Again...you've just indicted nearly every player in baseball history.




Again, his homerun numbers followed the course of his team ... until steroids.


I want you to show me that a HR hitters HR have to follow the course of his team...this is some new crack induced stat that I have yet to master.






Yeah he's only had a year of .324, 47 homers and 148 RBI. In other words, he almost had as many homers as he had doubles. Plus he got more hits/AB than he ever did.

That's because he drew more walks...his highest PA number came in 1996.




Also, try this on for size. Take that year (1999), and subtract his homeruns from his hits. Then see how many doubles he had per hits that weren't homeruns. The answer is a double every 3.5 non-homerun at bats.

Find out what plate appearances are...how AB are derived...and then look again..and look at his second best year as well.




In 1991 when he had 49 doubles, he had a double every 3.6 non-homerun at bats. So Raffy become a better homerun hitter and a better doubles hitter ... not to mention a better hitter overall (BA, OBP, SLG, OPS).

This is why rate stats are ruining the game almost as badly as steroids are....again...plate appearances.

This may come as a shock to you...but a guy hitting more HR will tend to draw more BB and therefore his rate still will improve in every category.




"I never defended Raffy. Never. Period."

:rollin


Um...I said he shouldn't be allowed in the Hall of Fame...I don't know how that can be counted as a defense.








When it's that obvious, all one has to do is use a couple brain cells to figure it out. Don't hate me because you believed in the sweet stroke. He was juiced. It was obvious.

Sorry.


That's not what we are arguing about...

You guys are saying he never showed any signs of power prior to 1993....

You are wrong about that. He did show it. He showed power before and his jump in numbers in and of itself is not unusual compared to other players...

That's is the argument.

I already know his numbers took off in 1993....and it coincides just a little too closely with Jose's accusations...and for that reason I have questioned his numbers.

In fact I mentioned it before anyone else did...

[whottt]

Whott, I don't know why you won't admit to defending Rafeal Palmiero. Not only do you not conceed any points, but you skew facts trying to be right. I guess it hurts when you find out the truth about your deceitful idol.


Hmmmm...where did I defend him against Jose's accusations?

[whottt]

You are defending Raffy

Yet in this thread:


Boom...he just destroyed his entire career...he's a liar and a cheat.

I can't believe I was a fan of this guy....

And:




His numbers are fucking HOF worthy...it's assinine to say they aren't.

But if he did steroids that's another thing entirely...

And:


The only thing this added to it is the fact that he can tell a boldfaced lie while he is cheating.

There is a difference between defending his numbers as hall worthy, and defending steroid usage and lying.......

And:




I don't feel real compelled to see him make the HOF if he did steroids...I have the same attitude about Bonds, Sosa and McGwire...

Cheating does that...it just kinda makes you not care and distrust all the players...that's the reason that they shouldn't go into the HOF...



And furthermore, here is what I wrote when these allegations first came up:

Link (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10252&highlight=Canseco)



Damn!

This is devastating. It's a no-brainer that McGwire was a roid head...I knew he was a roid head back in 92.

It's also a no-brainer that Juan Gone was a user...although I doubt Jose introduced Juan to them...Juan was using them well before Jose came to the team...was obvious.

Pudge doesn't really suprise me...

Raffy...say it aint so Raffy...

Damn, it just fits too perfectly though...his numbers did turn into power numbers at the time Jose joined the Rangers..and sadly, his decline in numbers last year is just a little too perfectly timed with the institution of a steroid tesing policy.


But everything Jose says fits perfectly with the other playrs he mentioned, and I believe him...it would be naive for me to think that he the only one he lied about was Raffy...especially when Raffy was a childhood friend of his.

Sadly, I don't think Jose is lying.

Time to retire Raffy. Why try and hit benchmarks when you cheated?
The same goes for Bonds and Sosa and all these other shitheads.



I may have been a fan of Raffy's...indeed, the reason I liked him so much is because of all the hitters of this era...he showed fewer signs of roid usage...but I always doubted after Jose's comments.

As for his numbers...themselves they are hall worthy in any era and it's ignorant to say they aren't...even if he isn't.

[whottt]

But there are certain things that irritate me...

#1. Steroids have been used in athletics for 50 something years now....What makes everyone so sure that they just started using them in the 90's? Arnold Schwatzenegger was using them in the 60's.

#2. If the pitchers are using steroids as well....doesn't that make things equal?

#3. Who else did them?

This is the truly sickening aspect of it....how can you repect/trust any of these players...I am telling you guys Palmeiro showed less indication of using them than just about any other power hitter...

It's a total black eye for the game...and he should never be allowed in the Hall of Fame...but the game has always had these issues....and he's not the only one doing it...he's just the one that got caught first.

#4. I agree that cheaters shouldn't be allowed in the Hall...

But people need to stop acting like players didn't cheat back in the good ole days...that's the most tedious argument ever.

They used spitballs and scuffballs, corked bats...

They were bigots...they threw World Series...they jumped in the stands to beat up a men with no arms...

They tried to manipulate batting title races...

There have always been guys that cheated and it is nothing new to the game.

Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame...and he's one of the most notorious cheaters of all time.....he's proud of it...they call him "crafty".

[DrRich]

Whottt's hero goes down in flames. First he should apologize to Jose Canseco. Obviosly, Canseco wasn't BSing when he said he saw Raffy take steroids. He wasn't really a power hitter until Canseco came to Texas. That should have been the red flag right there.

Raffy is a cheat. 3000 hits and 500 homeruns don't mean jack when you've been juiced for the last 13 years.

Whenever anyone says his name from now on, the first thing you'll think about is steroids. Nice job, Raffy. He should have just retired and saved some of his legacy.

Raffy for prez?

Yeah right.


This in NO WAY vaslidates what the scum of the earth Canseco wrote in his book! Mr. Scum also wrote that he discussed steriod use with Bret Boone while he was on second base during a spring game. If you go back and look at the schedule Canseco never played Boone in a game that year!!!

Now, I am not excusing Raffy in any way, in fact it sickens me because I was a fan of his. But to give even the slightest amount of credit to Canseco is appalling in my book. He was just makin shit up to sell more books. He is just a selfish jealous ball player that never could cut it ove the long haul!!

[DrRich]

Palmeiro hasn't played in a World Series. In 22 postseason games, he has only four homers and eight RBI, with a .244 average. Not really THREATENING @ the plate...

So I guess going by these standards. Bonds is out as well!! He disappears in the post season and does not have a ring, either!

HOF consideration is a career achievement not just a award for post season accolades!! Palmiero has had a stellar career, but the steriod revelation just tarnished beyond recognition!

[samikeyp]

As for his numbers...themselves they are hall worthy in any era and it's ignorant to say they aren't...even if he isn't.

not if...if...those numbers are steroid-aided.

The thing is...we will probably never know.


Question though.....we don't know the actual date of the positive test.....Raffy just got his 3000th hit...was he on the juice at the time of that hit and if so, should the record stand?

Discuss.

[FromWayDowntown]

not if...if...those numbers are steroid-aided.

The thing is...we will probably never know.


Question though.....we don't know the actual date of the positive test.....Raffy just got his 3000th hit...was he on the juice at the time of that hit and if so, should the record stand?

Discuss.

I don't think that you can really parse it like that, mikey. Palmeiro is certainly a good enough hitter that, whether juiced or not, he was going to accumulate a lot of hits in the major leagues over a long career. If you are going disallow his 3,000th hit, don't you also have to be sure that he wasn't juiced for hit #853, #1752, and #2495 too? I don't think you can do it on a hit-by-hit basis, or on a home run-by-home run basis.

I mean, do you discount every hit from the time that he tested positive backwards to the latest possible start date (say, the test accounts for any usage for the last six weeks -- do we go from six weeks before the test through the date of the test?). It's enough that people will be suspicious of his achievements, just as many are suspicious (or give less credence) to the career achievements of a guy like Gaylord Perry.

[samikeyp]

I am not parsing it like anything. I was asking a question, not expressing my personal view.

No one can prove the extent of his usage, it may have been exactly what he said it was...unintentional...it also may have not. I think that "what if" could weigh on the minds of those who have votes and may (emphasis on may) cause some of them to change their minds. If I had a vote, and this is my opinion, I probably would not vote for him. I said earlier I would not vote for him, but I have had time to think about it and I am not so steadfastly sure anymore.

[spurster]

Every stat for the last 20-30 years can be questioned because of steriods, not just Palmiero's.

[samikeyp]

Maybe it would be easier if we gave the juicers their own league. Give them aluminium bats, use a mechanical pitcher, to avoid death, and let them swing away! :lol

[atlfan25]

If you go back and look at the schedule Canseco never played Boone in a game that year!!!

I may be mistaken, however i recall him saying it was in a spring training game.

[Spurminator]

What we are witnessing is a regrettable hangover from baseball and baseball fans' drunken 90s binge on the Longball.

In the 70s and 80s many of the biggest stars in baseball were the ones who played a great all-around game... Rickey Henderson, Ryne Sandberg, Wade Boggs, Don Mattingly, Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken, Pete Rose, Dale Murphy, Keith Hernandez, Alan Trammel, Robin Yount, Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Rod Carew, Ozzie Smith... and I know I'm forgetting a lot of other players.

Sure, you had your star sluggers... Reggie Jackson, Jim Rice, Daryl Strawberry, Jose Canseco, Andre Dawson... But there was balance. You didn't HAVE to be a slugger to be appreciated. And a lot of times, a one-dimensional slugger would be criticized for being such.

In the nineties, particularly in the years following the strike, it seems like the appreciation for the hustle aspect of the game diminished. There were still players who played that way, but they were often overlooked in favor of the growing number of 50-homerun hitters.

Hopefully in the coming years, baseball and the media will shift its focus back to the players who play the game well all around, and play it the right way.

[DrRich]

I may be mistaken, however i recall him saying it was in a spring training game.

Yeah it was and they never played on the field at the same time!!!

[FromWayDowntown]

I am not parsing it like anything. I was asking a question, not expressing my personal view.

No one can prove the extent of his usage, it may have been exactly what he said it was...unintentional...it also may have not. I think that "what if" could weigh on the minds of those who have votes and may (emphasis on may) cause some of them to change their minds. If I had a vote, and this is my opinion, I probably would not vote for him. I said earlier I would not vote for him, but I have had time to think about it and I am not so steadfastly sure anymore.

I wasn't accusing you of parsing it -- I was saying (in the context of offering my opinion based on your suggestion that we discuss your question) that I disagreed with the premise. My point, as you say, is that it would be impossible to draw any kind of clear lines with respect to any of these guys. Part of the problem with that is that until last season, the game didn't prohibit players from using steriods and other such nonsense.

I can't say whether I'd vote for Palmeiro or not. I know that I would vote for Bonds, but Bonds is different to me because: (1) the suspicions about him have never gone beyond suspicions -- he's never been publicly identified for testing positive and until he does, I'll withhold judgment; (2) Bonds was a sublime player before any concerns arose about steroid use -- he was an MVP-quality player in the late-80's and early-90's, before he discovered, uh, "weight training," or whatever made him what he is now.

I agree with spurminator's point wholeheartedly. The guys who were the great players when I was growing up and loving my one game a week on Saturday afternoon (with Joe Garagiola and Tony Kubek) were guys who did most things well. Guys like Dave Kingman (lots of HR, lots of strikeouts) were never really considered stars by most fans. Guys like George Brett and Don Mattingly, who were big-time hitters with some power, were the perrenial MVP candidates. Teams that had great pitching and pretty good offense could still win titles -- Dodgers in 88, Kansas City in 85, St. Louis in 82. Those teams wouldn't have much of a chance anymore. I think, to some extent, the transformation pre-dates the strike in 1994; maybe it started with Oakland's 3 straight pennants in 88, 89, and 90, and their other playoff appearances around that time. Whatever its cause and whenever it happened, the change has not been good.

[Duff McCartney]

I got this from another message board. They were discussing the Palmeiro deal on the radio and one of the radio hosts and news. This was the news...


But his NEWS was different and quite informative. He said that in the wake of the suspension, he had spoken with 3 separate sources, each of whom are "very close" to Palmeiro - as close as you can be, he said, and are in position to know - and all 3 said that Canseco's account (in which he said that Palmeiro was a juice baby supreme) was completely accurate. "Everything that Canseco said in the book was completely true" according to all 3 separate sources.

[Sportcamper]

Do you know what you call a player who doesn't take steroids?
A Dodger...

[atlfan25]

NEW YORK -- Rafael Palmeiro's positive steroid test was for stanozolol, a powerful anabolic steroid that is not available in dietary supplements, according to a newspaper report.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2123113

[timvp]

lol @ stanozolol

Nice stuff there, Raffy. Let's see Whottt spin this one.

"Everyone else did it so why shouldn't Raffy. Period."

[whottt]

When have I tried to spin anything?

Did you miss the 25 other times I condemned it in this thread?

You think this somehow backs up that weak ass shit stat analysis you used to claim he had no power....it doesn't. That argument was weak and that's why I argued with you over it. He did have power. The stats become incriminating when combined with with Canseco's allegations and the time frame he mentioned...not the numbers themselves.

You need to go look at the careers of some other players of yesteryear...using your logic of HR differential from the previous year(ignoring any other previous career high)just about every player in baseball history did steroids....including Jimmy Foxx, Mickey Mantle, Hank Aaron and a few others.

You know what proves he did steroids? The fact he got caught. Not his stats by themselves.

[whottt]

Again...this is what I said 6 months ago when Canseco first made the allegations:

02-06-2005, 12:42 PM

Link (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10252&highlight=Canseco)



Damn!

This is devastating. It's a no-brainer that McGwire was a roid head...I knew he was a roid head back in 92.

It's also a no-brainer that Juan Gone was a user...although I doubt Jose introduced Juan to them...Juan was using them well before Jose came to the team...was obvious.

Pudge doesn't really suprise me...

Raffy...say it aint so Raffy...

Damn, it just fits too perfectly though...his numbers did turn into power numbers at the time Jose joined the Rangers..and sadly, his decline in numbers last year is just a little too perfectly timed with the institution of a steroid tesing policy.


But everything Jose says fits perfectly with the other playrs he mentioned, and I believe him...it would be naive for me to think that he the only one he lied about was Raffy...especially when Raffy was a childhood friend of his.

Sadly, I don't think Jose is lying.

Time to retire Raffy. Why try and hit benchmarks when you cheated?
The same goes for Bonds and Sosa and all these other shitheads.

[T Park]

BTW, this stuff he got busted on was the same stuff Ben Johnson got busted on.

Nice job Taffy.


Frank Robinson>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Taffy


Frank Robinson is probobly the most underrated and prob a top 6 player in baseball history but is overshadowed by roid heads like Bonds, Pudge, McGwire and Taffy.

Sad....

[whottt]

Yeah these are the true anabolic steroids...and man easily detected too, for many years now.

I tell you one thing...honestly I could actually kind of forgive the steroid usage if he showed some kind of remorse over it...because let's face it...others guys do it. And cheating has always been part of the game. He'd still be a fraud...but that's not as bad as what he is now.

What gets me is that the dude is a cold hearted liar that can lie under oath without a shred of remose and then just go and do some steroids right after swearing he didn't do them...McGwire may be a wimp but at least he has a conscience...

Raffy doesn't even have that. Not only that but he's arrogant as hell too..they said he tested positive for these a few weeks after he testified before congress...what absolute arrogance.


And stupidity...not only is he doing an easily detected roid...he's doing a dangerous one...I am no medical doctor but I am almost certain that mixing roids and viagra is not good for you. This type of roid isn't good for you...it's amazing the dude has stayed as healthy as he has...it's incredible actually. Stupid motherfucker.

Not only that...but he had it made once he got 3000 hits...he only needed 70 hits...he could have limped to that this season without roids and ended his career going into the HOF and with his legacy in good shape...other than a Canseco accusation.

No Raffy is more that just roid head....he's got serious fucking character issues...beyond just being a cheat, and he's a dumbass on top of it.

He's worse than McGwire and Giambi...but and even a little worse than Bonds and Sosa(who showed no remorse but at least they tried to get off of them)...the difference is that he's been caught and none of those guys have.

No way does he belong in the HOF...ever...you cannot let him in after this because he's got gaping holes in his character. And he doesn't even deserve sympathy if he get kept out of the Hall.


He thought he could just do whatever he wanted, an obvious steroid, afer testifying before congress...when he knows MLB is going to be testing for it...He thought that he was untouchable and he had absolutely no conscience...those are holes, big holes.

[tlongII]

Yeah it was and they never played on the field at the same time!!!


You sure about that? I wouldn't dismiss it so cavalierly. While I'm no fan of Canseco's I believe most of what is in his book is factually based. Not all spring training games are recorded for posterity so I think it's impossible to say it didn't happen.