Where does the Admiral place in the all-time rankings?

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

At center and all-time?

[Skull-1]

Top three. Top ten. Respectively.

[elbamba]

I think an argument could be made for top 10 for centers and top 30 overall. If he had played longer or been more selfish his numbers might be a bit better but that is not what seemed to drive him. If he could have won the championship in 1994 or 1995 before TD he would also move up on the list.

No particular order but I would put the following centers in front of Big Dave:

1. Lou Alcindor
2. Wilt
3. Hakeem
4. Russell
5. Shaq
6. Moses Malone

Then probably David

[Skull-1]

Don't forget two gold medals and a FIBA championship, as I recall. That's still worth something. And he has tons of accolades. Also 71 points in a game is pretty incredible. (Going off memory here so if I am wrong, well, it is not by much.)

[Admiral]

Well, he's the only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and blocked shots and win Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, and Most Valuable Player award during his career. He is also the only player in NBA history to rank among top five players in the league in rebounding, blocks and steals in the same season. He has two NBA championships, two Olympic gold medals, and was named to numerous All-NBA teams, All-Defensive teams, and All-Star teams. He has one of the few quadruple doubles in NBA history, and scored 71 points in a game. He stacks up very well against the other star centers he played against throughout his career in terms of points, rebounds, blocks, and games won. He has 519 win shares in his career and only 11 loss shares. That is incredible.

Unfortunately, the simple-minded and ignorant among us view his career solely based on the 1995 playoffs against the Rockets. While David was outplayed by Hakeem during that series, he still played well. He faced a lot more double teams due to the Spurs not having as strong a supporting cast. And despite that, I still maintain that the Spurs would have won the series if Dennis Rodman had not been such a distraction. Nonetheless, Houston was certainly a more talented team. The Spurs had a lineup of Robinson, Rodman, Elliott, Del Negro, and Johnson, while Houston had Olajuwon, Thorpe, Drexler, Cassell, Horry, Elie, etc. Just an incredible amount of talent, which even a great series by David would probably not have been enough to overcome.

As for the argument that he never led the Spurs to a championship, I disagree. The 1999 championship team was decidedly David's. Sure, Duncan played well and led the team in scoring, but David had some huge performances during that playoff run. His defense was incredible, he scored the ball reliably, and his leadership (along with Mario Elie) was so key. We would not have won that title without him.

Stepping back and looking at his career as a whole, including his stats, wins, awards, and performance against his contemporaries, I put him as the fifth best center ever behind Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Shaq among centers, and just ahead of Hakeem and Moses Malone. I think he is in the top 20-25 overall.

[Skull-1]

He also has a quadruple double. Averaged 21+ and 10+ per game.

[cd021]

20,000 points & 2900 blocks in ,essentially, 13 seasons. Starting at age 24 and playing 6 seasons with a dominant scorer and defender. top 7 atleast, arguable top 5 center (kareem, shaq, wilt, Russell, Hakeem)

[HarlemHeat37]

Off the top of my head, he's probably one of the 10 best regular season players of all-time..

Overall, one of the top 20-25 players of all-time..

[elbamba]

Tim Duncan was the 1999 championship. I love David Robinson and he is my all time favorite player. Duncan's numbers outside the Minnesota series were god like.

[elbamba]

I should add that the two most enjoyable sports viewing events in my life were 2003 game 6 against Dallas when Robinson was jumping in circles on the bench after Kerr's 3 pointers and then his embrace of Willis and his fist pump after he checks out of game 6 against the Nets.

[mute]

Robinson is one of the most underrated and under appreciated player of all time. Personally, I think he's a top 15 player (but top 10 when it comes to sheer talent and athletic ability). He's probably more athletic than both Dwight Howard and Lebron James. To fill out like he did at 7'1" and running the floor... that's nuts. He's one of the few guys I put up there with the level of Shaq-Wilt-Lebron-Kareem-Jordan like dominance.

First, he never won a single title as the guy. His career was relatively short, and he's often perceived as "too nice" and didn't really have an edge to him. Personally, I think he's better than Duncan. He's faster, stronger, and bigger than Duncan. He's more athletic and can run faster. He's a better scorer, rebounder, and shot blocker. In their respective primes, Duncan was never even better than a rookie/2nd yr. Robinson.

[spurraider21]

Robinson outplayed shaq in most of their heads up meetings before his back injury

[Duncan2177]

Well, he's the only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and blocked shots and win Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, and Most Valuable Player award during his career. He is also the only player in NBA history to rank among top five players in the league in rebounding, blocks and steals in the same season. He has two NBA championships, two Olympic gold medals, and was named to numerous All-NBA teams, All-Defensive teams, and All-Star teams. He has one of the few quadruple doubles in NBA history, and scored 71 points in a game. He stacks up very well against the other star centers he played against throughout his career in terms of points, rebounds, blocks, and games won. He has 519 win shares in his career and only 11 loss shares. That is incredible.

Unfortunately, the simple-minded and ignorant among us view his career solely based on the 1995 playoffs against the Rockets. While David was outplayed by Hakeem during that series, he still played well. He faced a lot more double teams due to the Spurs not having as strong a supporting cast. And despite that, I still maintain that the Spurs would have won the series if Dennis Rodman had not been such a distraction. Nonetheless, Houston was certainly a more talented team. The Spurs had a lineup of Robinson, Rodman, Elliott, Del Negro, and Johnson, while Houston had Olajuwon, Thorpe, Drexler, Cassell, Horry, Elie, etc. Just an incredible amount of talent, which even a great series by David would probably not have been enough to overcome.

As for the argument that he never led the Spurs to a championship, I disagree. The 1999 championship team was decidedly David's. Sure, Duncan played well and led the team in scoring, but David had some huge performances during that playoff run. His defense was incredible, he scored the ball reliably, and his leadership (along with Mario Elie) was so key. We would not have won that title without him.

Stepping back and looking at his career as a whole, including his stats, wins, awards, and performance against his contemporaries, I put him as the fifth best center ever behind Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Shaq among centers, and just ahead of Hakeem and Moses Malone. I think he is in the top 20-25 overall.

No way is Big Dave ahead of Hakeem.

[baseline bum]

Robinson over Olajuwon is complete lunacy.

[Cry Havoc]

Top three. Top ten. Respectively.

:lmao

Look, DRob is my favorite player of all time but there's no way he's in the top 3 or even top 5 center conversation. Just not possible.

[Cry Havoc]

Robinson over Olajuwon is complete lunacy.

You can make a pretty convincing argument that Hakeem is the #2 center of all-time behind Jabbar (or Wilt, if that's what you're into). Hakeem is basically a slightly better version of Robinson all the way around. He was a fucking shooting guard in a center's body. Absolutely ridiculous. Hakeem in today's NBA would be even more lethal than he was in the 90s. It's crazy to think about.

[lefty]

Hakeem is the GOAT center imo

[dallasmaverickslose]

Top three. Top ten. Respectively.

Holy hell I actually agree with you...

[Arcadian]

6th greatest center, maybe 5th, but he has this competition: Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Russell, Malone.

Top 20 overall

[TXstbobcat]

Top 15 all time and top 5 center. He was the reason that I started following basketball and the spurs growing up.

[Kidd K]

He's not a top 10 all time player, stop it. The dude was my favorite player growing up but try not to be that big of a homer guys. He didn't lead a team to a title (won two, but didn't clearly "lead" them), so he is penalized. He also got one of his rings as a busted up old man. . .so he's really a one ring co-captain type player in the grand scheme.

His personal stats and records are extremely good, but if you really look at all the all time greats, you kinda can't put him above a lot of them because of just the one ring. You can argue he's as high as maybe. . .20ish, but if you go much higher it's just homerism imo.

[SpursFan86]

Lol, some of y'all are ridiculous. I'm a huge D-Rob fan, but let's be serious.

Top 5 centers (in no order): Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, and Shaq.

Top 10 players (in no order): MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, LeBron

There's no way he fits into either of those categories. He's probably the 6th best center of all-time (I'd put him ahead of Moses Malone given Robinson's defensive impact), and maybe a top-15 player of all-time. I'm sorry, but the dude never won a title as a first option. He was an underperformer in the playoffs. Let's take off the Spurs homer goggles and be objective here.

[Admiral]

Hakeem was great, but I don't see why one outstanding series should elevate a player's stature to the degree it seems to with Hakeem. Isn't it interesting how Hakeem dominated and "lead his team to a championship" in the seasons he had an amazing supporting cast? Don't you think that has something to do with it? I'd love to know how David would have done with a cast of Drexler, Thorpe, Horry, Cassell, etc. Sort of how I'd love to know what David would have done with Duncan's supporting cast. If we're being honest, Elliott, Rodman, Johnson, Del Negro, etc. weren't even close to those supporting casts.

That's not to take away from Hakeem's performance, because it was amazing. But that's one series out of an entire career. So if we're going to give Hakeem almost royalty status for his performance in 1995, then we should also detract points for the year when he was criticized for faking injuries and demanding a trade out of Houston.

Seriously, David vs. Hakeem throughout their careers showed almost identical performance when you look at scoring, rebounds, blocks, fg%, etc. The only difference is that David's team won more games. That should carry a lot of weight in a conversation like this. They are fairly even, to be honest. Not a huge difference either way.

[SupremeGuy]

Top 5-7 centers, tbh.

Top 25 players in general, tbh.

[apalisoc_9]

Hakeem was great, but I don't see why one outstanding series should elevate a player's stature to the degree it seems to with Hakeem. Isn't it interesting how Hakeem dominated and "lead his team to a championship" in the seasons he had an amazing supporting cast? Don't you think that has something to do with it? I'd love to know how David would have done with a cast of Drexler, Thorpe, Horry, Cassell, etc. Sort of how I'd love to know what David would have done with Duncan's supporting cast. If we're being honest, Elliott, Rodman, Johnson, Del Negro, etc. weren't even close to those supporting casts.

That's not to take away from Hakeem's performance, because it was amazing. But that's one series out of an entire career. So if we're going to give Hakeem almost royalty status for his performance in 1995, then we should also detract points for the year when he was criticized for faking injuries and demanding a trade out of Houston.

Seriously, David vs. Hakeem throughout their careers showed almost identical performance when you look at scoring, rebounds, blocks, fg%, etc. The only difference is that David's team won more games. That should carry a lot of weight in a conversation like this. They are fairly even, to be honest. Not a huge difference either way.

Hakeem an amazing supporting cast?

please stop smoking pot..he had an underrated cast considering how people think 94 was all Hakeem but amazing...

geez

[Sean Cagney]

Robinson outplayed shaq in most of their heads up meetings before his back injury

That is an unknown fact! You are correct.

[SpursFan86]

Hakeem was great, but I don't see why one outstanding series should elevate a player's stature to the degree it seems to with Hakeem. Isn't it interesting how Hakeem dominated and "lead his team to a championship" in the seasons he had an amazing supporting cast? Don't you think that has something to do with it? I'd love to know how David would have done with a cast of Drexler, Thorpe, Horry, Cassell, etc. Sort of how I'd love to know what David would have done with Duncan's supporting cast. If we're being honest, Elliott, Rodman, Johnson, Del Negro, etc. weren't even close to those supporting casts.

That's not to take away from Hakeem's performance, because it was amazing. But that's one series out of an entire career. So if we're going to give Hakeem almost royalty status for his performance in 1995, then we should also detract points for the year when he was criticized for faking injuries and demanding a trade out of Houston.

Seriously, David vs. Hakeem throughout their careers showed almost identical performance when you look at scoring, rebounds, blocks, fg%, etc. The only difference is that David's team won more games. That should carry a lot of weight in a conversation like this. They are fairly even, to be honest. Not a huge difference either way.

Compare their performance in the playoffs...that's where the biggest difference is. I'm not talking about just the '95 WCF. Hakeem historically stepped up his game in the playoffs, while D-Rob did the opposite.

[elemento]

Top 8

[timmy2003]

Definitely top 10 for centers but center is arguably the most competitive position

[Cry Havoc]

Hakeem was great, but I don't see why one outstanding series should elevate a player's stature to the degree it seems to with Hakeem. Isn't it interesting how Hakeem dominated and "lead his team to a championship" in the seasons he had an amazing supporting cast? Don't you think that has something to do with it? I'd love to know how David would have done with a cast of Drexler, Thorpe, Horry, Cassell, etc. Sort of how I'd love to know what David would have done with Duncan's supporting cast. If we're being honest, Elliott, Rodman, Johnson, Del Negro, etc. weren't even close to those supporting casts.

That's not to take away from Hakeem's performance, because it was amazing. But that's one series out of an entire career. So if we're going to give Hakeem almost royalty status for his performance in 1995, then we should also detract points for the year when he was criticized for faking injuries and demanding a trade out of Houston.

Seriously, David vs. Hakeem throughout their careers showed almost identical performance when you look at scoring, rebounds, blocks, fg%, etc. The only difference is that David's team won more games. That should carry a lot of weight in a conversation like this. They are fairly even, to be honest. Not a huge difference either way.

You're aware Hakeem has two rings, right? So I'm confused how that could be "one" series.

The 94 Rockets were one of the weakest teams ever to win the title. Probably at or below the level of the 2003 Spurs. Hakeem was just that damn good. His stats for the '94 playoffs are mind-boggling. 29 ppg, 11 rpg, 4.3 assists, and 4 blocks. Almost 2 steals per as well. Just ludicrous.

[elbamba]

Hakeem was great, but I don't see why one outstanding series should elevate a player's stature to the degree it seems to with Hakeem. Isn't it interesting how Hakeem dominated and "lead his team to a championship" in the seasons he had an amazing supporting cast? Don't you think that has something to do with it? I'd love to know how David would have done with a cast of Drexler, Thorpe, Horry, Cassell, etc. Sort of how I'd love to know what David would have done with Duncan's supporting cast. If we're being honest, Elliott, Rodman, Johnson, Del Negro, etc. weren't even close to those supporting casts.

That's not to take away from Hakeem's performance, because it was amazing. But that's one series out of an entire career. So if we're going to give Hakeem almost royalty status for his performance in 1995, then we should also detract points for the year when he was criticized for faking injuries and demanding a trade out of Houston.

Seriously, David vs. Hakeem throughout their careers showed almost identical performance when you look at scoring, rebounds, blocks, fg%, etc. The only difference is that David's team won more games. That should carry a lot of weight in a conversation like this. They are fairly even, to be honest. Not a huge difference either way.

When you say one good series do you really mean the two years when he was the best player in the game? You are not talking to a bunch of Houston fans here. David Robinson was or is the favorite player of probably most posters on here. I watched them both play and Hakeem was the better player.

To say that Robinson is better than Duncan is just absurd. Duncan has never been about the stats. Individually, Robinson was a freak of nature but he never improved his game the way Duncan has. Duncan has improved his dribbling, passing, free throws, jumpshot, foot work since he came into the league. Duncan is playing at a much higher level at his age than Robinson could have, mind you, I dont recall his age in 2003.

[Richie]

I wonder who would rank higher, Garnett or Robinson all time? Neither could get it done on their own as 'the man', Garnett got a stacked Celtics team and DRob got Timmy.

[MolaMola790]

Hakeem is the GOAT center imo

I agree.

[MolaMola790]

I wonder who would rank higher, Garnett or Robinson all time? Neither could get it done on their own as 'the man', Garnett got a stacked Celtics team and DRob got Timmy.

Prime Robinson > Prime KG, although KG has had the way longer career.....

[Kidd K]

I wonder who would rank higher, Garnett or Robinson all time? Neither could get it done on their own as 'the man', Garnett got a stacked Celtics team and DRob got Timmy.

David Robinson is easily above Kevin Garnett, and it isn't very close. KG only has a single ring, and it was only gotten after fleeing to Boston to join other all stars and was not their team leader. Aka it barely means anything. DRob got his while staying with the same team and his greatest ally that year was a sophomore Duncan. He also has a second (less valuble) ring.

DRob was both the better player and his "ring value", if you wanna make up a term to describe all rings not being created equally, is pretty much double what KG's is. KG was also never really known as a league dominant player. DRob on the other hand was considered better than Jordan for a time because of his good offense and incredibly dominating defense.

[mudyez]

I like Bill Simmons and his (TBOB....2010) top 30 is like this:

30 - Willis Reed
29 - David Robinson
28 - Dwyane Wade
27 - Bill Walton
26 - Rick Barry
25 - John Stockton

Level 4:

24 - Scottie Pippen
23 - Isiah Thomas
22 - Kevin Garnett
21 - Bob Cousy
20 - LeBron James
19 - Charles Barkley
18 - Karl Malone
17 - Bob Pettit
16 - Julius Erving
15 - Elgin Baylor
14 - John Havlicek

"The Pantheon" (Level 5):

13 - Moses Malone
12 - Shaquille O'Neal
11 - Hakeem Olajuwon
10 - Oscar Robertson
9 - Jerry West
8 - Kobe Bryant
7 - Tim Duncan
6 - Wilt Chamberlain
5 - Larry Bird
4 - Magic Johnson
3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2 - Bill Russell
1 - Michael Jordan

by position:

Point Guards: Magic (4), Oscar (10), Cousy (21), Isiah (23), Stockton (25), Frazier (32), Nash (36), GP (41), Kidd (43), DJ (54), Tiny (60), Wilkens (71), Bing (81), Paul (90), KJ (93)

Shooting Guards: Jordan (1), Kobe (8), West (9), Wade (28), Jones (33), Iverson (37), Drexler (44), Greer (48), Sharman (53), Allen (62), Miller (63), Monroe (67), Pistol (68), Thompson (70), Moncrief (73), Dumars (74), Westphal (79), Goodrich (87), Carter (89), White (95)

Small Forwards: Bird (5), Hondo (14), Elgin (15), Dr. J (16), LeBron (20), Pippen (24), Barry (26), Gervin (34), Pierce (47), Cunningham (49), Worthy (50), 'Nique (55), Arizin (56), King (58), English (65), Dantley (66), T-Mac (77), Dandridge (80), Mullin (82), Hagan (83), Howell (91), Twyman (94)

Power Forwards: Duncan (7), Pettit (17), Mailman (18), Barkley (19), KG (22), McHale (35), Dirk (39), DeBusschere (46), Hayes (51), Schayes (52), Heinsohn (57), Lucas (64), Rodman (69), Webber (72), Horry (84), Hawkins (86), Kemp (88), Chambers (96)

Centers: Russell (2), Kareem (3), Wilt (6), Hakeem (11), Shaq (12), Moses (13), Walton (27), Robinson (29), Reed (30), Cowens (31), Mikan (38), Ewing (40), Unseld (42), Thurmond (45), Parish (59), McAdoo (61), Gilmore (75), Issel (76), Howard (78), Sabonis (85), Lanier (92)

...but #29 is way to low in my book. Taking this list, I think he should rang around Malone/Barkley/Pettit (but LeBron is higher now)...Probably I'd have him at #17...and call him about the 7th best center of all time.

[Chomag]

People always tend to forget David carried a team of scrubs for most of his career and still had a wining team. Give him a Manu and parker then he would probably been just as successful as Timmy.

[pookenstein]

I like Bill Simmons and his (TBOB....2010) top 30 is like this:

30 - Willis Reed
29 - David Robinson
28 - Dwyane Wade
27 - Bill Walton
26 - Rick Barry
25 - John Stockton

Level 4:

24 - Scottie Pippen
23 - Isiah Thomas
22 - Kevin Garnett
21 - Bob Cousy
20 - LeBron James
19 - Charles Barkley
18 - Karl Malone
17 - Bob Pettit
16 - Julius Erving
15 - Elgin Baylor
14 - John Havlicek

"The Pantheon" (Level 5):

13 - Moses Malone
12 - Shaquille O'Neal
11 - Hakeem Olajuwon
10 - Oscar Robertson
9 - Jerry West
8 - Kobe Bryant
7 - Tim Duncan
6 - Wilt Chamberlain
5 - Larry Bird
4 - Magic Johnson
3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2 - Bill Russell
1 - Michael Jordan
Not bad, but outdated. James should be positioned way higher now and Dirk Needs tobe on that list (and before KG). Also putting Kobe higher than Shaq is questionable, tbh.

[Skull-1]

Pippen and Wade above The Admiral? :lmao

[Horse]

No way I ever put shaq ahead of Drob. shaq was a lazy one-way player his whole career. He got away with murder offensivley didn't play any D, not to mention a liabilty late in games cause of his FT shooting. HE single handedly ruined the 2008 phoenix suns. Wasn't that great of a rebounder considering his size advantage over everyone. The real shame is, because of the back injury we may have never seen him at his best.

[Beaverfuzz]

He's #50 in the top 50 players of all-time. Why not!

[tmtcsc]

David was uniquely athletic to the position. He wasn't the big, plodding 7 footer that was slow on his feet. IN fact, i I would argue he was the most athletic 7 foot center to ever play the game but NOT top 5 in terms of skill. -- Hakeem was not 7 feet tall in case you are wondering. Shaq was undoubtedly more powerful but I think David was faster and more agile. He was amazing to watch in his prime. Reverse, alley-oop dunks, quick recovery time to help out on defense, etc. Just incredible.

To win a scoring title with very average footwork and a lack of go-to move was........wait for it......wait for it.....admirable.

[Kidd K]

I like Bill Simmons and his (TBOB....2010) top 30 is like this:

30 - Willis Reed
29 - David Robinson
28 - Dwyane Wade
27 - Bill Walton
26 - Rick Barry
25 - John Stockton

Level 4:

24 - Scottie Pippen
23 - Isiah Thomas
22 - Kevin Garnett
21 - Bob Cousy
20 - LeBron James
19 - Charles Barkley
18 - Karl Malone
17 - Bob Pettit
16 - Julius Erving
15 - Elgin Baylor
14 - John Havlicek

"The Pantheon" (Level 5):

13 - Moses Malone
12 - Shaquille O'Neal
11 - Hakeem Olajuwon
10 - Oscar Robertson
9 - Jerry West
8 - Kobe Bryant
7 - Tim Duncan
6 - Wilt Chamberlain
5 - Larry Bird
4 - Magic Johnson
3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2 - Bill Russell
1 - Michael Jordan

by position:

Point Guards: Magic (4), Oscar (10), Cousy (21), Isiah (23), Stockton (25), Frazier (32), Nash (36), GP (41), Kidd (43), DJ (54), Tiny (60), Wilkens (71), Bing (81), Paul (90), KJ (93)

Shooting Guards: Jordan (1), Kobe (8), West (9), Wade (28), Jones (33), Iverson (37), Drexler (44), Greer (48), Sharman (53), Allen (62), Miller (63), Monroe (67), Pistol (68), Thompson (70), Moncrief (73), Dumars (74), Westphal (79), Goodrich (87), Carter (89), White (95)

Small Forwards: Bird (5), Hondo (14), Elgin (15), Dr. J (16), LeBron (20), Pippen (24), Barry (26), Gervin (34), Pierce (47), Cunningham (49), Worthy (50), 'Nique (55), Arizin (56), King (58), English (65), Dantley (66), T-Mac (77), Dandridge (80), Mullin (82), Hagan (83), Howell (91), Twyman (94)

Power Forwards: Duncan (7), Pettit (17), Mailman (18), Barkley (19), KG (22), McHale (35), Dirk (39), DeBusschere (46), Hayes (51), Schayes (52), Heinsohn (57), Lucas (64), Rodman (69), Webber (72), Horry (84), Hawkins (86), Kemp (88), Chambers (96)

Centers: Russell (2), Kareem (3), Wilt (6), Hakeem (11), Shaq (12), Moses (13), Walton (27), Robinson (29), Reed (30), Cowens (31), Mikan (38), Ewing (40), Unseld (42), Thurmond (45), Parish (59), McAdoo (61), Gilmore (75), Issel (76), Howard (78), Sabonis (85), Lanier (92)

...but #29 is way to low in my book. Taking this list, I think he should rang around Malone/Barkley/Pettit (but LeBron is higher now)...Probably I'd have him at #17...and call him about the 7th best center of all time.

His list is pretty good since it actually encompasses every player (I would bet a thousand dollars most posters on this forum wouldn't list half those guys in their top 30), though disagree with some of the placements.

Bird and Duncan's spots should be reversed. Duncan a winner for longer, less injury probs, more rings.

Kobe too high, but only because Shaq is set way too low and should be above him.

Hakeem slightly too low (switch spots with West imo)

Shaq is way too low, I don't get how he's that low tbh.

Havlicek WAY too high. Obvious homer pick.

DRob too low, better/more dominant than KG during their respective primes. KG's career lasted longer though.

Not much complaint about the rest. Give or take 1-2 spots otherwise. Good list overall. . .was definitely worth reading. Thanks for postin it.

[polandprzem]

He has put Pettit on 17th yet not having Mikan top 30 ...

Dave should be higher /stockton and barry ahead of him ?/

[SpursFan86]

David Robinson is easily above Kevin Garnett, and it isn't very close. KG only has a single ring, and it was only gotten after fleeing to Boston to join other all stars and was not their team leader. Aka it barely means anything. DRob got his while staying with the same team and his greatest ally that year was a sophomore Duncan. He also has a second (less valuble) ring.

DRob was both the better player and his "ring value", if you wanna make up a term to describe all rings not being created equally, is pretty much double what KG's is. KG was also never really known as a league dominant player. DRob on the other hand was considered better than Jordan for a time because of his good offense and incredibly dominating defense.

I disagree. I think you're forgetting how dominant KG was from '03-'07. IIRC, he led Minnesota in all 5 categories (points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks) two years in a row from '04-05. That's insane. KG was DEFINITELY a league dominant player in those years. I also think you don't give KG enough credit for that '08 title. First off, KG was the driving force of that Celtics team. You really think it's coincidence they went from having the 16th best defense in '07 to having one of the best defenses of all-time in '08 with KG? You think getting Ray Allen was the main reason for that? KG might not have carried the load offensively, but that team didn't win on its offense. Those '08 Celtics won because they were amazing defensively, and KG was the biggest reason for that. I'm not saying KG deserves as much credit as someone like Duncan deserves for his '03 ring, but saying "it barely means anything" is flat-out ridiculous IMO.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01/on-off/2008/

Look at that impact. The Celtics defense gave up 9 more points per 100 possessions when KG wasn't on the court during the playoffs. That's ridiculous.

I also believe Duncan in his 2nd year was just as good as Pierce + Allen combined, or close to it. I'd argue KG had just as big of a role in his '08 title run as Robinson did in the Spurs '99 title run...or very close to it.

[dbreiden83080]

Top 20 and top 10 at Center. I really don't think he was much better than Ewing. They both got their butts kicked by Hakeem and neither had much help but still won a lot of games in the reg season.. David's inability to ring without Tim downgrades his legacy some..

[Kidd K]

I disagree. I think you're forgetting how dominant KG was from '03-'07. IIRC, he led Minnesota in all 5 categories (points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks) two years in a row from '04-05. That's insane. KG was DEFINITELY a league dominant player in those years. I also think you don't give KG enough credit for that '08 title. First off, KG was the driving force of that Celtics team. You really think it's coincidence they went from having the 16th best defense in '07 to having one of the best defenses of all-time in '08 with KG? You think getting Ray Allen was the main reason for that? KG might not have carried the load offensively, but that team didn't win on its offense. Those '08 Celtics won because they were amazing defensively, and KG was the biggest reason for that. I'm not saying KG deserves as much credit as someone like Duncan deserves for his '03 ring, but saying "it barely means anything" is flat-out ridiculous IMO.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01/on-off/2008/

Look at that impact. The Celtics defense gave up 9 more points per 100 possessions when KG wasn't on the court during the playoffs. That's ridiculous.

I also believe Duncan in his 2nd year was just as good as Pierce + Allen combined, or close to it. I'd argue KG had just as big of a role in his '08 title run as Robinson did in the Spurs '99 title run...or very close to it.

I disagree with most your arguments. In fact, I suspect you didn't actually watch the NBA live, or were too young to comprehend it when DRob was in his prime. He was a much better player than KG, and it's literally not close. Like I said, people back then were talking about DRob as being superior to Michael Jordan for awhile. No offense, but if you're that strongly disagreeing, I have to think you simply didn't watch the NBA or any sports channels back then to see what other people thought about him too.

Some of your arguments too seem to be arguing with something that isn't being said. I never said KG wasn't a dominant player, so telling me is doesn't really address anything that's being said. I said he isn't and hasn't been as dominant as DRob was. It's a comparison between two players, not a documentary of KG's history. I know KG was good, just not as good as DRob.

As for Celtics 07 to 08 statistical changes, Rondo and Perkins were becoming better players, and they also added Ray Allen, Sam Cassell, Glen Davis, james Posey, and others. There was a massive rollover in their roster from 07 to 08. Let's not act like it was the same team + KG. Most of the team was overhauled.


Look at that impact. The Celtics defense gave up 9 more points per 100 possessions when KG wasn't on the court during the playoffs. That's ridiculous.

This is also a common type of stat when you have a team with a good defensive big man and a mediocre backup. Sure it Sounds great, but there's always going to be a dropoff when you go from good defensive big to their backup who's almost always worse.

And yeah, his ring doesn't mean very much. He was not the obvious team leader, he fled his team to join a bunch of all stars on an overhauled roster, and could not recreate that success. You think that shit means as much as Hakeem's rings in the mid 90's? Or Dirk's a couple years ago? Yeah, it doesn't. It's value is less. Not all rings are created equal.

You need to focus more on the comparison dude, not telling me about things that just happened that we all know already. No one's saying KG was a bad player. It's about DRob vs KG, and you posted 0 points about the comparison. All you did was rehash some of KG's recent history.

[dbreiden83080]

Tim Duncan was the 1999 championship. I love David Robinson and he is my all time favorite player. Duncan's numbers outside the Minnesota series were god like.

The Knicks were undersized but Duncan at just 23 in his 2nd season could have shied away from the pressure of the finals like Lebron famously has.. Nope he demanded the ball and destroyed them..

[dbreiden83080]

I like Bill Simmons and his (TBOB....2010) top 30 is like this:

30 - Willis Reed
29 - David Robinson
28 - Dwyane Wade
27 - Bill Walton
26 - Rick Barry
25 - John Stockton

Level 4:

24 - Scottie Pippen
23 - Isiah Thomas
22 - Kevin Garnett
21 - Bob Cousy
20 - LeBron James
19 - Charles Barkley
18 - Karl Malone
17 - Bob Pettit
16 - Julius Erving
15 - Elgin Baylor
14 - John Havlicek

"The Pantheon" (Level 5):

13 - Moses Malone
12 - Shaquille O'Neal
11 - Hakeem Olajuwon
10 - Oscar Robertson
9 - Jerry West
8 - Kobe Bryant
7 - Tim Duncan
6 - Wilt Chamberlain
5 - Larry Bird
4 - Magic Johnson
3 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2 - Bill Russell
1 - Michael Jordan

by position:

Point Guards: Magic (4), Oscar (10), Cousy (21), Isiah (23), Stockton (25), Frazier (32), Nash (36), GP (41), Kidd (43), DJ (54), Tiny (60), Wilkens (71), Bing (81), Paul (90), KJ (93)

Shooting Guards: Jordan (1), Kobe (8), West (9), Wade (28), Jones (33), Iverson (37), Drexler (44), Greer (48), Sharman (53), Allen (62), Miller (63), Monroe (67), Pistol (68), Thompson (70), Moncrief (73), Dumars (74), Westphal (79), Goodrich (87), Carter (89), White (95)

Small Forwards: Bird (5), Hondo (14), Elgin (15), Dr. J (16), LeBron (20), Pippen (24), Barry (26), Gervin (34), Pierce (47), Cunningham (49), Worthy (50), 'Nique (55), Arizin (56), King (58), English (65), Dantley (66), T-Mac (77), Dandridge (80), Mullin (82), Hagan (83), Howell (91), Twyman (94)

Power Forwards: Duncan (7), Pettit (17), Mailman (18), Barkley (19), KG (22), McHale (35), Dirk (39), DeBusschere (46), Hayes (51), Schayes (52), Heinsohn (57), Lucas (64), Rodman (69), Webber (72), Horry (84), Hawkins (86), Kemp (88), Chambers (96)

Centers: Russell (2), Kareem (3), Wilt (6), Hakeem (11), Shaq (12), Moses (13), Walton (27), Robinson (29), Reed (30), Cowens (31), Mikan (38), Ewing (40), Unseld (42), Thurmond (45), Parish (59), McAdoo (61), Gilmore (75), Issel (76), Howard (78), Sabonis (85), Lanier (92)

...but #29 is way to low in my book. Taking this list, I think he should rang around Malone/Barkley/Pettit (but LeBron is higher now)...Probably I'd have him at #17...and call him about the 7th best center of all time.

What GM in his right mind would take Bob Cousy over Robinson or even Stockton?

[SpursFan86]

I disagree with most your arguments. In fact, I suspect you didn't actually watch the NBA live, or were too young to comprehend it when DRob was in his prime. He was a much better player than KG, and it's literally not close. Like I said, people back then were talking about DRob as being superior to Michael Jordan for awhile. No offense, but if you're that strongly disagreeing, I have to think you simply didn't watch the NBA or any sports channels back then to see what other people thought about him too.

Some of your arguments too seem to be arguing with something that isn't being said. I never said KG wasn't a dominant player, so telling me is doesn't really address anything that's being said. I said he isn't and hasn't been as dominant as DRob was. It's a comparison between two players, not a documentary of KG's history. I know KG was good, just not as good as DRob.

As for Celtics 07 to 08 statistical changes, Rondo and Perkins were becoming better players, and they also added Ray Allen, Sam Cassell, Glen Davis, james Posey, and others. There was a massive rollover in their roster from 07 to 08. Let's not act like it was the same team + KG. Most of the team was overhauled.



This is also a common type of stat when you have a team with a good defensive big man and a mediocre backup. Sure it Sounds great, but there's always going to be a dropoff when you go from good defensive big to their backup who's almost always worse.

And yeah, his ring doesn't mean very much. He was not the obvious team leader, he fled his team to join a bunch of all stars on an overhauled roster, and could not recreate that success. You think that shit means as much as Hakeem's rings in the mid 90's? Or Dirk's a couple years ago? Yeah, it doesn't. It's value is less. Not all rings are created equal.

You need to focus more on the comparison dude, not telling me about things that just happened that we all know already. No one's saying KG was a bad player. It's about DRob vs KG, and you posted 0 points about the comparison. All you did was rehash some of KG's recent history.

You said yourself: "KG was never really known as a league-dominant player"...this is the main part I disagreed with. He won an MVP and was clearly the best player in the league in 2004. So I really don't get that comment.

And it's funny you bring up "arguing something that wasn't said". I never said KG's ring meant as much as Hakeem's or Dirk's. In fact, I specifically brought up how it WASN'T as meaningful as another ring (Duncan's in '03). But we're comparing KG to D-Rob, not Hakeem or Dirk. Robinson never won a ring as a 1st option either. He took his team to the WCF once as a 1st option. KG did the same in '04. KG lost to Shaq and Kobe's Lakers, Robinson lost to Hakeem's Rockets. I don't understand why you're acting like David Robinson was the biggest part of the Spurs winning in '99. Duncan was clearly the most important player on that team, both in the regular season and the playoffs. You think Robinson's ring means as much as Hakeem's rings or Dirk's?

As for fleeing the team...really? He dealt with Minnesota's horrible front office for what, 11 or 12 years before finally leaving? He wasted his entire prime playing for an organization that was never able to build a championship team around him. Something that would've happened to Robinson, too, had he not gotten injured and the Spurs lucked out by landing a once-in-a-lifetime player like Duncan to play alongside him.

I'm not even saying that Robinson isn't better than KG. I'm saying that you're completely selling KG short and that the gap isn't nearly as big as you make it out to be. In fact, KG/D-Rob were similar in some aspects. They were both drafted to small-market teams and completely carried their teams early on in their careers. However they were never surrounded by enough talent while they were in their primes to carry a team to a title. It wasn't until after they exited their primes that they had enough surrounding talent to win a title. Only difference is Robinson got injured and his team drafted Duncan, while Garnett eventually said fuck it and left for a better team.

Basically: I'm perfectly fine with the Robinson > KG argument. In fact, I agree with it. I just don't think the gap between them is as great as you make it out to be. You're really underrating KG.

[baseline bum]

Pippen and Wade above The Admiral? :lmao

Wade deserves it for that ridiculous run he went on in 06, especially the series he had versus a 64-win Pistons team.

[apalisoc_9]

Kobe Bryant never was the best player in the league in a single season so him being at 9 is Stupid.

[TheGoldStandard]

DRob was truly a great especially having only played 13 seasons and 9 of those as the alpha dog.

[Kidd K]

You said yourself: "KG was never really known as a league-dominant player"...this is the main part I disagreed with. He won an MVP and was clearly the best player in the league in 2004. So I really don't get that comment.

And it's funny you bring up "arguing something that wasn't said". I never said KG's ring meant as much as Hakeem's or Dirk's. In fact, I specifically brought up how it WASN'T as meaningful as another ring (Duncan's in '03). But we're comparing KG to D-Rob, not Hakeem or Dirk. Robinson never won a ring as a 1st option either. He took his team to the WCF once as a 1st option. KG did the same in '04. KG lost to Shaq and Kobe's Lakers, Robinson lost to Hakeem's Rockets. I don't understand why you're acting like David Robinson was the biggest part of the Spurs winning in '99. Duncan was clearly the most important player on that team, both in the regular season and the playoffs. You think Robinson's ring means as much as Hakeem's rings or Dirk's?

As for fleeing the team...really? He dealt with Minnesota's horrible front office for what, 11 or 12 years before finally leaving? He wasted his entire prime playing for an organization that was never able to build a championship team around him. Something that would've happened to Robinson, too, had he not gotten injured and the Spurs lucked out by landing a once-in-a-lifetime player like Duncan to play alongside him.

I'm not even saying that Robinson isn't better than KG. I'm saying that you're completely selling KG short and that the gap isn't nearly as big as you make it out to be. In fact, KG/D-Rob were similar in some aspects. They were both drafted to small-market teams and completely carried their teams early on in their careers. However they were never surrounded by enough talent while they were in their primes to carry a team to a title. It wasn't until after they exited their primes that they had enough surrounding talent to win a title. Only difference is Robinson got injured and his team drafted Duncan, while Garnett eventually said fuck it and left for a better team.

Basically: I'm perfectly fine with the Robinson > KG argument. In fact, I agree with it. I just don't think the gap between them is as great as you make it out to be. You're really underrating KG.

Yeah, how many times did he get to the Finals again before Boston? 0? How about just out of the first round? Once? Yeah. . .

Fleeing the team: Same deal with LeBron except he was worse than LeBron. He goes to Miami to join with all stars artificially. The ring isn't seen as being as valuble as a guy who stuck it out with a team, built up normally, then won. That's why Jordan's 6 are seen as so impressive. He never fled to another team, he stuck it out and built up, toiling through the bad seasons before he started winning. The ring KG got doesn't mean as much as guys who stuck it out like DRob did, like Dirk did. I see no reason to continue arguing this since it's kinda obvious.


took his team to the WCF once as a 1st option. KG did the same in '04. KG lost to Shaq and Kobe's Lakers, Robinson lost to Hakeem's Rockets

And Hakeem's Rockets won the title that year. The year Hakeem had one of the most legendary post season runs of ALL TIME, and they won the title the next year too. The Lakers didn't win the title in '04, lost in '03, and were done in '05. Meanwhile Shaq was already fading in '04. Kobe was great, but KG doesn't guard Kobe.


I'm not even saying that Robinson isn't better than KG. I'm saying that you're completely selling KG short and that the gap isn't nearly as big as you make it out to be. In fact, KG/D-Rob were similar in some aspects. They were both drafted to small-market teams and completely carried their teams early on in their careers. However they were never surrounded by enough talent while they were in their primes to carry a team to a title.

Yes, and yet, Robinson was more successful than KG even prior to Duncan being drafted. Won more games, was getting further in the playoffs, was putting up better numbers, was touted as the bigger talent, etc. See my point?

I ain't selling KG short. He's good. He just isn't what DRob was. DRob was essentially the "LeBron" of his era. The huge dude with the illogical athleticism for his size who put up gargantuan numbers. Just so happens his career was cut a bit short due to having to serve in the Navy and later the back injury which slowed him down a lot. KG was always a really good player, but never an "omg check this guy out" kinda guy like DRob was.

[DMC]

Top three. Top ten. Respectively.

No and no

[DMC]

Don't forget two gold medals and a FIBA championship, as I recall. That's still worth something. And he has tons of accolades. Also 71 points in a game is pretty incredible. (Going off memory here so if I am wrong, well, it is not by much.)

The Dream Team gold medals are cereal box toys tbh. The ones they win these days are more difficult to attain.

[DMC]

When it's all said and done with everyone on Simmons' list, then it will make sense. You cannot accurately rank active players against retired ones because their body of work is not complete. Tim will be ranked higher when he retires. Even though he lost in the Finals, getting there elevated his legacy even more.

[DeadlyDynasty]

As an all-time player he ranks one or two spots behind Pau Gasol

[polandprzem]

When it's all said and done with everyone on Simmons' list, then it will make sense. You cannot accurately rank active players against retired ones because their body of work is not complete. Tim will be ranked higher when he retires. Even though he lost in the Finals, getting there elevated his legacy even more.
Why can't you rank an active players? It makes sense.

Like you would say that floyd mayweather is unranked on the alltime list - Just :rolleyes



:shootme

[EVAY]

People always tend to forget David carried a team of scrubs for most of his career and still had a wining team. Give him a Manu and parker then he would probably been just as successful as Timmy.

I think this is absolutely the case. People forget that prior to Holt's ownership, the Spurs never had the payroll that would substantiate a world-class roster like we have today. Robinson was aware of that as well, and at his retirement ceremony referred to Holt having taken the team "to a higher level" talent wise than they had ever been before.

A less positive fact regarding Robinson is that he totally dominated the Spurs' team salaries, even demanding 11+M per year as his last contract, after he was seriously hampered by back and foot problems. With the likes of McCombs, etc. as owners, there was never enough money to attract much talent around him.

[Skull-1]

Wade deserves it for that ridiculous run he went on in 06, especially the series he had versus a 64-win Pistons team.


Dave would sh-t all over Wade. The guy was a freak of nature. A man that big who could move like he did. His defense was stifling, too, which people forget. The Spurs are the Spurs because of Robinson. He set the tone for a dynasty that has been awesome for two decades.

[Skull-1]

No and no

He earned a Bronze when? Rhetorical question.

[EVAY]

I don't think that Kevin Garnett is in the same league as Robinson in his prime. The only way they are similar, imo, is that they each sucked up all the money from the team's salaries in small market, leaving them to be surrounded by lesser talent that meant they really had trouble going all the way in the playoffs (Until Duncan got here for Robinson, obviously - but remember he was on a rookie contract at the time).

[Killakobe81]

Well, he's the only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and blocked shots and win Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, and Most Valuable Player award during his career. He is also the only player in NBA history to rank among top five players in the league in rebounding, blocks and steals in the same season. He has two NBA championships, two Olympic gold medals, and was named to numerous All-NBA teams, All-Defensive teams, and All-Star teams. He has one of the few quadruple doubles in NBA history, and scored 71 points in a game. He stacks up very well against the other star centers he played against throughout his career in terms of points, rebounds, blocks, and games won. He has 519 win shares in his career and only 11 loss shares. That is incredible.

Unfortunately, the simple-minded and ignorant among us view his career solely based on the 1995 playoffs against the Rockets. While David was outplayed by Hakeem during that series, he still played well. He faced a lot more double teams due to the Spurs not having as strong a supporting cast. And despite that, I still maintain that the Spurs would have won the series if Dennis Rodman had not been such a distraction. Nonetheless, Houston was certainly a more talented team. The Spurs had a lineup of Robinson, Rodman, Elliott, Del Negro, and Johnson, while Houston had Olajuwon, Thorpe, Drexler, Cassell, Horry, Elie, etc. Just an incredible amount of talent, which even a great series by David would probably not have been enough to overcome.

As for the argument that he never led the Spurs to a championship, I disagree. The 1999 championship team was decidedly David's. Sure, Duncan played well and led the team in scoring, but David had some huge performances during that playoff run. His defense was incredible, he scored the ball reliably, and his leadership (along with Mario Elie) was so key. We would not have won that title without him.

Stepping back and looking at his career as a whole, including his stats, wins, awards, and performance against his contemporaries, I put him as the fifth best center ever behind Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and Shaq among centers, and just ahead of Hakeem and Moses Malone. I think he is in the top 20-25 overall.

I agree with a lot of this. I just find it hard to place him over Hakeem who beat him when both were in their primes. I especially agree that because TIm was so special in 1999 many on here overlook how much David contributed to that team even though he was clearly no longer in his prime. Without David doing his best work to limit Shaq and the other top bigs that year (IIRC) maybe the spurs dont ring. I posted downstairs if you watch any of the Dream Team footage from 1992 I dont think anyone outside of MJ (INCLUDING Scottie Pippen who was great all around athlete) stood out more than DR. that was a team with a plethora of HOF'ers
And David if you watch him glide from end to end block shots and finish strong was amazing. If you think about it despite lacking the handles and vision of Lebron it's actually David who reminds me most from a physical standpoint and impact on defense to James and not Karl Malone or Magic. David though not as dominant as Shaq was a true professional who took pride in his shape and physique. I just wish he had a bit more fire to him. Duncan though quiet flashes a fire that I rarely saw from David. And I think he gets judged a bit harsher because those with THOSe types of gifts great things are expected. Fair or not David could not win without tim yet tim has proven he could win without David. And that is why Tim is considered the greater player.

I rank David just below Hakeem and I'll be honest Moses vs. David is a tough call. I prefer David's all-around game but Moses had some of that "bully" to him that I think if David had there would be no question who is the greatest center. From a Natural talent perspective Only David and Shaq imho had the ability to be greater than Kareem. the fact that neither got close ... is and indictment on Shaq's lack of focus and I dont think David had that "beast" in him. It's not a knock. I just don't think David ever cared for individual goals. I doubt he ever had any design to be the GOAT center. The fact he did not fight his Navy commitment shows that he valued a lot of things greater than his career. Duncan as humble as he is cares about that stuff part of why he loves being a PF ...

Great player. All time best athletes I have ever seen in the NBA: MJ, Lebron, Nique, David, Scottie ...
Overall as a player I would say top 20 but I don't count guys I never saw play ...

[Killakobe81]

LOL at he overrating of Shaq and Pau by spur fans some of Im sure Kobe has something to do with that.
Simmons list is pretty good. I would flip flop Duncan and Kobe but I do agree that it is close. And have said that repeatedly.
To say that it is not close is crazy no matter which side of the debate you are on. Kobe is not miles better than tim as Kool would say but No way Duncan is way better than Kobe either.
Shaq because he is funny and was so dominant inside many on here ignore the number of time he has been swept. and the fact that considering his size and the way he dominated in the Finals that he should of been a better rebounder and shot blocker. Great player definitely a top 5 all-time center and above David but so overrated on spurstalk and LG.

And yes I get Kobe is overrated plenty of places too ...

[txstr1986]

To win a scoring title with very average footwork and a lack of go-to move was........wait for it......wait for it.....admirable.

I feel that this line isn't getting the credit it deserves.

[Phenomanul]

Too bad whottt isn't around anymore to educate the Spurs' fan base on all things D-Rob related (a fan base whose newer adherents continually undermine just how dominant a basketball player Robinson really was on his freakish athleticism alone – despite not having Duncanesque talent or footwork).

I remember him dissecting that infamous '95 series that is largely used to scorn Robinson's legacy. I found an excerpt from one of his posts that I archived... [for those who can stomach his overly long paragraphs] here’s a summary:



1). None of the Spurs' role players showed up consistently in that series. In fact, Dennis Rodman, Robinson’s notorious front court mate, went completely crazy [moreso than usual] in the middle of the series. If he had simply imploded and quit on his team, it may have been surmountable. But no, he went bat-shit crazy and sabotaged the Spurs’ chances for winning the series all-together by being largely responsible for putting them in an 0-2 hole to start the series, AT HOME, no less!! The majority of those that use this series as an argument to knock Robinson’s legacy NEVER mention this fact. Apparently, no one outside of San Antonio even remembers this subterfuge – as if Rodman’s 0 for 5 from downtown in Games 1 and 2 wasn’t sufficient a clue. Upon closer inspection [I’ve watched that series more than I care to admit] Rodman’s sabotage is more cunning. Nonchalantly closing out on three point shooters [which, when motivated, Rodman was one of the best – as was the case against the Lakers’ bombers the series before], doubling the wrong man, fouling at a higher clip than usual, ‘inadvertently’ setting picks against his OWN players, etc… When San Antonio media questioned his antics after Game 1, he cunningly pointed to his free-throw shooting as a counter-argument to the suggestion that he “was playing for the other guys”. In other words, Rodman only cared about his rebounds [as usual, for personal reasons only – not because he cared about winning the actual games], and pretended to care by ensuring his free-throws were ‘well taken’. That is some downright Machiavellian scheming right there – and most would probably never believe that Rodman was capable of such maneuvering. But I saw it, Rudy T. saw it, Bob Hill failed to react to the obvious, and the Rockets took advantage – all at David Robinson’s expense. Lo and behold, ESPN neglected the story.

2). Robinson was constantly double-teamed by Horry and Olajuwon, or by Olajuwon and Charles Jones (whose sole purpose in that series was to hack away at Robinson – in just 88 minutes played over 6 games, Jones averaged a whopping 7.7 fouls per 36 min (for a total of 19 fouls)!!, 84% of which were committed against Robinson]. The Spurs couldn't counter because it left one of Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Kenny Smith, Clyde Drexler or Mario Elie WIDE OPEN for threes. Game 1, Game 3 and the clincher in Game 6 were decided by critically clutch shots made by these bombers. Most people solely credit Olajuwon for the series victory, due to his other-worldly stats, but utterly fail to mention that 3 games were decided by his shooters!

a). For the series, the Rockets were 44 of 127 from downtown (for a respectable, but not great, 34.6%). Breaking it down further however, they were 13/29 in the 4th quarters (44.8%), and 9/17 in the "clutch" (52.9%) [5 minutes or less in a close game]. For being considered a “weak” team, that type of support will get it done every time. All the Greats have had the benefit of clutch shooting from their respective supporting casts on their way to rings. Robinson’s supporting casts NEVER gave him that sort of help. Olajowon’s did. It’s as simple as that.

b). The Spurs, by contrast were 23 of 72 from downtown for the series (31.9%). 8/27 in 4th quarters (29.6%), and 4/13 in the the "clutch" (30.8%). In other words, the opposite trend.

c). Last year, Amar'e scorched a Duncan-led Spurs team to the tune of 37 ppg (vs. Hakeem's 35.3 ppg in that ill-fated '95 series) [normalized, the difference is more prominent; Amar'e scored 0.89 points per minute vs. Hakeem's 0.81 points per minute]. The Spurs prevailed, largely in part to the Spurs' balanced attack (Spurs' "Big Three" of Duncan, Parker and Ginobili all averaged above 20 ppg for the series) and this squad could actually contribute from beyond 3-point territory (44/107 for 41.1%). Contrary to popular belief, not all of Amar'e's scoring came off of Nash's pick'n'roll sets. He excelled in the open court on transition baskets, 23% of his scoring came by way of the charity stripe, and another 18% of his baskets came off of isolation plays against Duncan or Nazr Mohammed. In other words, he was a prolific, all-around, scoring machine (by Spurs' defensive design, of course). That said, no one in their mind would claim that Amar'e is a better player than Duncan, but had the Suns won the series those stats could certainly be touted against Duncan to make the case. The point being, that CONTEXT is everything. And unfortunately for Robinson, the media and the casual fan have taken a lackadaisical approach by using the ‘95 series, and specifically ONE particular play that is played ad nauseam as the de facto series’ abridged summary [credit to Olajuwon] to tarnish Robinson’s place among the best. It certainly didn’t help that Robinson’s well-deserved MVP award was used as the ‘driver’ to hype up the drama between the two all-star centers, to help build up TV ratings for a series that largely failed to captivate the casual fan once the Spurs ousted the Lakers in the Conference Semifinals. Olajuwon further emphasized said ‘motivation’ only after his ticket to the Finals was secured, an expressed sentiment that unfortunately threw more dirt Robinson’s way. Olajuwon then made sure that the collective memory of that series would degrade Robinson's legacy forever and embellished the series outcome after the summer of 1996, when Robinson outplayed both him and Shaq for the starting gig on the Atlanta 1996 Dream Team II squad. In other words, Olajuwon is a douche-bag as a competitor. Never once did Robinson speak negatively about his contemporaries (Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwon, Mourning, etc...), never once did he fabricate personal vendettas to hype up their head-to-head match ups [which Robinson holds over every one of those centers]. It's the 'good guy' persona that the media just absolutely hates. The media clamors for upstanding athletes, and role models but only because they make excellent news after they fall from grace or screw-up. David never did, so the only way they can knock him is by undermining his legacy.

[baseline bum]

I don't think that Kevin Garnett is in the same league as Robinson in his prime. The only way they are similar, imo, is that they each sucked up all the money from the team's salaries in small market, leaving them to be surrounded by lesser talent that meant they really had trouble going all the way in the playoffs (Until Duncan got here for Robinson, obviously - but remember he was on a rookie contract at the time).

That's a pretty unfair characterization of Robinson since he tore up that rookie contract and signed for a lot less about 4-5 years into the league. Red McCombs' cheap ass gets the blame for Robinson having shit supporting casts.

[Skull-1]

Too bad whottt isn't around anymore to educate the Spurs' fan base on all things D-Rob related (a fan base whose newer adherents continually undermine just how dominant a basketball player Robinson really was on his freakish athleticism alone – despite not having Duncanesque talent or footwork).

I remember him dissecting that infamous '95 series that is largely used to scorn Robinson's legacy. I found an excerpt from one of his posts that I archived... [for those who can stomach his overly long paragraphs] here’s a summary:


Right the bleep on! Robinson continues to be severely underrated. I will never forget that missed dunk attempt in his last game. My goodness. He was flying. And that was the "old" Dave with a bad back. In his prime there was nothing like him.

[Killakobe81]

Right the bleep on! Robinson continues to be severely underrated. I will never forget that missed dunk attempt in his last game. My goodness. He was flying. And that was the "old" Dave with a bad back. In his prime there was nothing like him.

I agree ...Lebron is closest but he is only 6 foot 8 ...
Obviously Lebron is a greater player but watching a graceful athlete Lebron and David are two of the best.
Neither have great post footwork but two of the best at going "end to end" ...

[Skull-1]

I agree ...Lebron is closest but he in only 6 foot 8 ...
Obviously Lebron is a greater player but watching a graceful athlete Lebron and David are too of the best.
Neither have great post footwork but two of the best at going "end to end" ...

Dave was also a defensive monster.

[EVAY]

That's a pretty unfair characterization of Robinson since he tore up that rookie contract and signed for a lot less about 4-5 years into the league. Red McCombs' cheap ass gets the blame for Robinson having shit supporting casts.

If you look back to response #60 on this same thread you will notice that I already agreed that McCombs' cheapness was a continual thorn in Robinson's side and kept him (Robinson) surrounded by lesser talent all through his career. And I already mentioned that Robinson was so incensed by it that he brought it up in his retirement ceremony that Holt was responsible for taking the team to a higher level than it had ever been.

Having said all of that, San Antonio was/is a small market team and Robinson took one of the largest contracts in the league (not undeservedly but he did take them) and there was no way that sized salary, a Red McCombs owned team was going to be able to afford any other talent. Robinson made it publicly clear before the completion of his last contract talks that he would absolutely bolt San Antonio if they didn't give him the money he wanted. I think he eventually signed that time for 11M, which at that time was a pot load of money for an injured and aging star.

I think Robinson was terrific, please don't get me wrong on that. I think he was light years better than Kevin Garnett, and that was the subject I was addressing in my comments. Garnett's contract size was the biggest of its time up to that point, IIRC, and there was no way Minnesota could bring anyone else into that team and pay them what they could get anywhere else. And Robinson's contract, whether or not McCombs SHOULD have spent more money on the surrounding cast, was always the reason given for WHY they couldn't put any better players surrounding him.

I know that you remember, BB, that those were the days when one big name player per team was considered the norm, and that person was expected to 'carry' the team. I was always convinced that if Robinson had a little more help, he would have gotten to the finals before Tim arrived. But he never had a good enough supporting cast to help him until Tim got here on a rookie contract.

Red McCombs did very little for the city of San Antonio in the way he ran the Spurs...but let's face it, he only owned them so he could convince the city powers to build him the Alamodome so he could try to attract a pro football team, which is about all he ever cared about. That Alamodome was a mess for basketball players, but then it wasn't built for them...it was built for a team that never came...so Red went a bought another football team in another city.

[baseline bum]

If you look back to response #60 on this same thread you will notice that I already agreed that McCombs' cheapness was a continual thorn in Robinson's side and kept him (Robinson) surrounded by lesser talent all through his career. And I already mentioned that Robinson was so incensed by it that he brought it up in his retirement ceremony that Holt was responsible for taking the team to a higher level than it had ever been.

Having said all of that, San Antonio was/is a small market team and Robinson took one of the largest contracts in the league (not undeservedly but he did take them) and there was no way that sized salary, a Red McCombs owned team was going to be able to afford any other talent. Robinson made it publicly clear before the completion of his last contract talks that he would absolutely bolt San Antonio if they didn't give him the money he wanted. I think he eventually signed that time for 11M, which at that time was a pot load of money for an injured and aging star.

I think Robinson was terrific, please don't get me wrong on that. I think he was light years better than Kevin Garnett, and that was the subject I was addressing in my comments. Garnett's contract size was the biggest of its time up to that point, IIRC, and there was no way Minnesota could bring anyone else into that team and pay them what they could get anywhere else. And Robinson's contract, whether or not McCombs SHOULD have spent more money on the surrounding cast, was always the reason given for WHY they couldn't put any better players surrounding him.

I know that you remember, BB, that those were the days when one big name player per team was considered the norm, and that person was expected to 'carry' the team. I was always convinced that if Robinson had a little more help, he would have gotten to the finals before Tim arrived. But he never had a good enough supporting cast to help him until Tim got here on a rookie contract.

Red McCombs did very little for the city of San Antonio in the way he ran the Spurs...but let's face it, he only owned them so he could convince the city powers to build him the Alamodome so he could try to attract a pro football team, which is about all he ever cared about. That Alamodome was a mess for basketball players, but then it wasn't built for them...it was built for a team that never came...so Red went a bought another football team in another city.

I don't think $11 million was that out of line for 2001 contracts. That was the biggest free-spending era in league history, and he was worth more than guys like Brian Grant and Eddie Jones who were pulling similar starting salaries but on 7 year contracts. I didn't see your previous post about McCombs; my bad. The Alamodome sucked so badly for basketball. I remember the first time I watched a game at Staples and all I could think was how its so cool to watch a game at a real NBA basketball arena.

[DMC]

Why can't you rank an active players? It makes sense.

Like you would say that floyd mayweather is unranked on the alltime list - Just :rolleyes

:shootme


You cannot rank them because their body of work isn't complete. You can suggest that, if they retired right now, they would be ranked however, but their entire career needs to be considered. Do you think a player can lose spots in the ranking if their career suddenly takes a turn for the worse? What if Tim Duncan decided to keep playing and really stunk it up out there, costing his team games? Do you average that in with his prime years or do you just ignore it and focus on his prime? If it's his prime, I have no problem counting active players.

There's active ranking and all time ranking. I don't agree with putting active players on all time lists. I think there's time after they retire for that, when their entire body of work can be examined. That's because otherwise their rankings change on a year to year basis, or day to day, or hell even play to play. That's pointless.

[DMC]

He earned a Bronze when? Rhetorical question.

Right about the time Tim was on the same team with Michael, Barkley, Larry, Pippen, Malone and Stockton.

[Phenomanul]

I guess I should also point out the table in my sig as an argument in David's favor...

[tholdren]

I think an argument could be made for top 10 for centers and top 30 overall. If he had played longer or been more selfish his numbers might be a bit better but that is not what seemed to drive him. If he could have won the championship in 1994 or 1995 before TD he would also move up on the list.

No particular order but I would put the following centers in front of Big Dave:

1. Lou Alcindor
2. Wilt
3. Hakeem
4. Russell
5. Shaq
6. Moses Malone

Then probably David

This is ridiculous. David is the 4th best player in NBA HISTORY - ALL TIME - in PER. = MJ/LEBRON/Shaq/David/Wilt

AND

Second in WS per 48... second to Mike by .0003

It is no stretch to argue him as the greatest ALL AROUND C of all time.

[tmtcsc]

I feel that this line isn't getting the credit it deserves.

Thanks txstr1986, much appreciated. I thought it was pretty good too.

[Skull-1]

Right about the time Tim was on the same team with Michael, Barkley, Larry, Pippen, Malone and Stockton.


Ehhh!! Sorry Hans wrong guess.

[DMC]

Ehhh!! Sorry Hans wrong guess.
^this is your brain on drugs... any questions?

[TheyCallMePro]

Well just on the Spurs it's...

1) Ginobili
2) Duncan
3) Parker
4) D-Rob
5) Bowen

All-time...? How about the last 20 years...where at least I was alive.

1) Lebron
2) Jordan
3) Kobe
4) Shaq
5) Ginobili
6) Duncan
7) Parker
8) Wade
9) Dirk
10) Durant
11) Westbrook
12) Paul...

And on and on. Why do you all have this great opinion of D-Rob? What did he accomplish without Duncan? Nothing. And the Spurs weren't even an elite team with D-Rob...there's at least 15 players in the last 20 years better than him. All time there would be too many to count.

[TheGoldStandard]

He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.

[jimbo]

Fleeing the team: Same deal with LeBron except he was worse than LeBron. He goes to Miami to join with all stars artificially. The ring isn't seen as being as valuble as a guy who stuck it out with a team, built up normally, then won. That's why Jordan's 6 are seen as so impressive. He never fled to another team, he stuck it out and built up, toiling through the bad seasons before he started winning. The ring KG got doesn't mean as much as guys who stuck it out like DRob did, like Dirk did. I see no reason to continue arguing this since it's kinda obvious.


:lmao
holy shit, we're living in 2014 and people are still making this argument

:lol

what a world we live in

[polandprzem]

You cannot rank them because their body of work isn't complete. You can suggest that, if they retired right now, they would be ranked however, but their entire career needs to be considered. Do you think a player can lose spots in the ranking if their career suddenly takes a turn for the worse? What if Tim Duncan decided to keep playing and really stunk it up out there, costing his team games? Do you average that in with his prime years or do you just ignore it and focus on his prime? If it's his prime, I have no problem counting active players.

There's active ranking and all time ranking. I don't agree with putting active players on all time lists. I think there's time after they retire for that, when their entire body of work can be examined. That's because otherwise their rankings change on a year to year basis, or day to day, or hell even play to play. That's pointless.

Well rankings are gonna change regardless.

Evey ranking is different from a person to person from year to year

[Johnny RIngo]

LOL at he overrating of Shaq and Pau by spur fans some of Im sure Kobe has something to do with that.
Simmons list is pretty good. I would flip flop Duncan and Kobe but I do agree that it is close. And have said that repeatedly.
To say that it is not close is crazy no matter which side of the debate you are on. Kobe is not miles better than tim as Kool would say but No way Duncan is way better than Kobe either.
Shaq because he is funny and was so dominant inside many on here ignore the number of time he has been swept. and the fact that considering his size and the way he dominated in the Finals that he should of been a better rebounder and shot blocker. Great player definitely a top 5 all-time center and above David but so overrated on spurstalk and LG.

And yes I get Kobe is overrated plenty of places too ...

I don't think Pau is overrated tbh. All is see is Laker fans shitting all over him. If he gets praised by Spurfan, it's probably to balance out all the undeserved criticism he gets from his own fanbase.

And, if you want to be objective, Pau Gasol has had a much more impressive career than Parker or Ginobili. I would put him right behind Dirk on a list of the best international players of all-time.

[DMC]

Well rankings are gonna change regardless.

Evey ranking is different from a person to person from year to year

Then it's pointless.

[polandprzem]

right now - everything is pointless to me ...


:depressed

[Skull-1]

^this is your brain on drugs... any questions?

This from the guy who claims David won a bronze at the Olympics with Duncan? :lmao :lmao :rollin:lol

Remind me to never ask you a rhetorical question as that requires you to know the obvious.



:lmao



He earned a Bronze when? Rhetorical question.

Right about the time Tim was on the same team with Michael, Barkley, Larry, Pippen, Malone and Stockton.

Ehhhh! Sorry Hans wrong guess. Would you like to go for Double Jeopardy where the scores can really change?

[Skull-1]

Well just on the Spurs it's...

1) Ginobili
2) Duncan
3) Parker
4) D-Rob
5) Bowen

All-time...? How about the last 20 years...where at least I was alive.

1) Lebron
2) Jordan
3) Kobe
4) Shaq
5) Ginobili
6) Duncan
7) Parker
8) Wade
9) Dirk
10) Durant
11) Westbrook
12) Paul...

And on and on. Why do you all have this great opinion of D-Rob? What did he accomplish without Duncan? Nothing. And the Spurs weren't even an elite team with D-Rob...there's at least 15 players in the last 20 years better than him. All time there would be too many to count.


Ginoibili? :lol Put down the crack pipe!

I give your troll 1/10.

[Horse]

Dave would sh-t all over Wade. The guy was a freak of nature. A man that big who could move like he did. His defense was stifling, too, which people forget. The Spurs are the Spurs because of Robinson. He set the tone for a dynasty that has been awesome for two decades.
He had quite a bit of help from the refs in 06. Hate to say it but dallas got screwed.

[DMC]

This from the guy who claims David won a bronze at the Olympics with Duncan? :lmao :lmao :rollin:lol

Remind me to never ask you a rhetorical question as that requires you to know the obvious.



:lmao





Ehhhh! Sorry Hans wrong guess. Would you like to go for Double Jeopardy where the scores can really change?

I never made such a claim.

[Skull-1]

I never made such a claim.


Here it is for ya'.






He earned a Bronze when? Rhetorical question.

Right about the time Tim was on the same team with Michael, Barkley, Larry, Pippen, Malone and Stockton.


Wait for the backpedal.

[gnsf0946]

Skull you obviously don't understand the metaphor DMC used....

[Skull-1]

Skull you obviously don't understand the metaphor DMC used....

No, he doesn't understand Dave's greatness, dismissing his two gold medals as party favors...

So I refer you yet again to my rhetorical question. Dave earned a bronze, when?

Unlike Tim, who threw his hands up and pouted into the night after earning bronze, Dave came back and won two gold medals with a vengeance. And people say Dave lacked competitive fire. Lmao!

[hooperflash]

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/1604563_574851095935972_545539545_n.jpg

[DMC]

Here it is for ya'.









Wait for the backpedal.

Tim was never on that team.

[DMC]

No, he doesn't understand Dave's greatness, dismissing his two gold medals as party favors...

So I refer you yet again to my rhetorical question. Dave earned a bronze, when?

Unlike Tim, who threw his hands up and pouted into the night after earning bronze, Dave came back and won two gold medals with a vengeance. And people say Dave lacked competitive fire. Lmao!

Dave did lack competitive fire. He won the bronze before he entered the NBA. Dave was very talented, super athletic and genetically gifted. He did not have the "nasty" that coach Pop talks about. He never did. Tim didn't either, but Tim has moves and skills far superior to Dave's and Tim plays the game on a mental level that totally psychologically destroys the less intelligent matchups, who often have greater athleticism. Dave relied on his athleticism more than his wit. If Tim had Dave's athleticism, he'd probably never developed the fundamental skills he has, but if he could do both, he's maybe the best the game has ever seen.

[Chomag]

Dave did lack competitive fire. He won the bronze before he entered the NBA. Dave was very talented, super athletic and genetically gifted. He did not have the "nasty" that coach Pop talks about. He never did. Tim didn't either, but Tim has moves and skills far superior to Dave's and Tim plays the game on a mental level that totally psychologically destroys the less intelligent matchups, who often have greater athleticism. Dave relied on his athleticism more than his wit. If Tim had Dave's athleticism, he'd probably never developed the fundamental skills he has, but if he could do both, he's maybe the best the game has ever seen.

I do agree but not taking Dave's high BB IQ away from him. He was no Timmy but he still was a very smart player.

[Skull-1]

Dave did lack competitive fire. He won the bronze before he entered the NBA. Dave was very talented, super athletic and genetically gifted. He did not have the "nasty" that coach Pop talks about. He never did. Tim didn't either, but Tim has moves and skills far superior to Dave's and Tim plays the game on a mental level that totally psychologically destroys the less intelligent matchups, who often have greater athleticism. Dave relied on his athleticism more than his wit. If Tim had Dave's athleticism, he'd probably never developed the fundamental skills he has, but if he could do both, he's maybe the best the game has ever seen.


Look. Someone discovered Wikipedia. How cute.

[Skull-1]

Tim was never on that team.

Duh. Tim won a bronze surrounded by pros just like those you listed. Dave was the best player on a team stacked with them, having medaled as an amateur previously. Tim quit.

[Venti Quattro]

In Hakeem Olajuwon's back pocket.

[Sean Cagney]

No, he doesn't understand Dave's greatness, dismissing his two gold medals as party favors...

So I refer you yet again to my rhetorical question. Dave earned a bronze, when?

Unlike Tim, who threw his hands up and pouted into the night after earning bronze, Dave came back and won two gold medals with a vengeance. And people say Dave lacked competitive fire. Lmao!David Robinson was actually one of if not the leading scorer on one of those teams correct? I remember that.

[tholdren]

David Robinson was actually one of if not the leading scorer on one of those teams correct? I remember that.
1996

[Sean Cagney]

1996

Yep you are correct. He put in work on those teams.

[DMC]

Look. Someone discovered Wikipedia. How cute.

Shitty attempt at a troll. Try harder. I knew David as a rookie, followed his game since he entered the league. I don't need Wiki to tell me what David Robinson has done.

[Skull-1]

Shitty attempt at a troll. Try harder. I knew David as a rookie, followed his game since he entered the league. I don't need Wiki to tell me what David Robinson has done.


Apparently you do, especially trying to downplay his world play accomplishments. I'll take a David Robinson Bronze Medal (two Golds aside) over a Tom Duncan Bronze Medal any day. To compare them is silly. To dismiss them even more so.

[DMC]

Apparently you do, especially trying to downplay his world play accomplishments. I'll take a David Robinson Bronze Medal (two Golds aside) over a Tom Duncan Bronze Medal any day. To compare them is silly. To dismiss them even more so.

Whatever. He's not a top 10 all time player. He barely squeezed into the top 50.

[Sean Cagney]

Whatever. He's not a top 10 all time player. He barely squeezed into the top 50.

Tim Duncan or D ROB? Tim is easily in my top ten or near it, D ROB is in the top 40 of all times to me but then again I have not went over names in a while. D ROB though is definitely top 50 all times to me, but Tim is way up there.

[DMC]

Tim Duncan or D ROB? Tim is easily in my top ten or near it, D ROB is in the top 40 of all times to me but then again I have not went over names in a while. D ROB though is definitely top 50 all times to me, but Tim is way up there.

David. Tim is top 5 imo.

[Sean Cagney]

David. Tim is top 5 imo.

Oh okay! Great rating on Timmay I got him top 10 all times. I got D ROB top 50 but the ranking I am unsure of, definitely not near top ten.

[tholdren]

Oh okay! Great rating on Timmay I got him top 10 all times. I got D ROB top 50 but the ranking I am unsure of, definitely not near top ten.

I have a question: If DROB is not even close to top 10 then why does only Jordan have a better career WS/48?

Similarly, Why is DROB top 4 in PER for a career?

David Robinson in his prime was arguably THE BEST CENTER of all time. He had virtually no help until the 98 season, when he was 1/2 the player he used to be. You consider TD one of the greatest ever, but if he was stuck on some shit team (a la Garnett or ROBINSON) he wouldnt have any rings. David had no player that was even remotely comparable to having the skill of Parker or Ginobili on his team. TD had both. Im not taking away from TD because I feel that he is undoubtedly the best PF of all time, but anyone who has played sports knows that there is more to a player than his skills, its got a lot to do with system, confidence, and LUCK. Robinson was never Lucky enough to have 2 HOF'ers in their prime on his team while he was in his prime.

[Skull-1]

Whatever. He's not a top 10 all time player. He barely squeezed into the top 50.


:lmao

[Skull-1]

I have a question: If DROB is not even close to top 10 then why does only Jordan have a better career WS/48?

Similarly, Why is DROB top 4 in PER for a career?

David Robinson in his prime was arguably THE BEST CENTER of all time. He had virtually no help until the 98 season, when he was 1/2 the player he used to be. You consider TD one of the greatest ever, but if he was stuck on some shit team (a la Garnett or ROBINSON) he wouldnt have any rings. David had no player that was even remotely comparable to having the skill of Parker or Ginobili on his team. TD had both. Im not taking away from TD because I feel that he is undoubtedly the best PF of all time, but anyone who has played sports knows that there is more to a player than his skills, its got a lot to do with system, confidence, and LUCK. Robinson was never Lucky enough to have 2 HOF'ers in their prime on his team while he was in his prime.


And without Dave there is no Tim. There is no Spurs dynasty. There is no "Spurs Way" culture. Dave is where it ALL started.

Plus, Tim isn't competing against the NBA of Robinson. We don't have Jordan, Ewing, Malone, Hakeem, etc. in this league of today.

David Robinson is the cornerstone of the Spurs dynasty. It all started with him. Period.

[exstatic]

I think Robinson is a better two way player than Mo Malone. MM also as good as admitted that he would put shots off the bottom of the rim to get the rebound and putback.

[iManu]

Lew
Wilt
Hakeem
Shaq
David

Centers are valuable (if rare, tbh).

Top 15.

[elbamba]

This is ridiculous. David is the 4th best player in NBA HISTORY - ALL TIME - in PER. = MJ/LEBRON/Shaq/David/Wilt

AND

Second in WS per 48... second to Mike by .0003

It is no stretch to argue him as the greatest ALL AROUND C of all time.

It is a stretch. The numbers you cite mean nothing. David is my favorite player of all time but I also realize that Robinson only lived up to about 75% of what he could have been. He did not have the drive like MJ and Kobe. He did not have the drive like Duncan who has aged way better than Robinson and has worked to have an all-around game that was not based on athleticism alone.

[Sean Cagney]

It is a stretch. The numbers you cite mean nothing. David is my favorite player of all time but I also realize that Robinson only lived up to about 75% of what he could have been. He did not have the drive like MJ and Kobe. He did not have the drive like Duncan who has aged way better than Robinson and has worked to have an all-around game that was not based on athleticism alone.

Period. This is 100% dead on and my response to him as well. Tim has that whole different level D Rob never had.

[DMC]

And without Dave there is no Tim. There is no Spurs dynasty. There is no "Spurs Way" culture. Dave is where it ALL started.

Plus, Tim isn't competing against the NBA of Robinson. We don't have Jordan, Ewing, Malone, Hakeem, etc. in this league of today.

David Robinson is the cornerstone of the Spurs dynasty. It all started with him. Period.

So it took Dave taking a season to get Tim. Great job Dave.

[tholdren]

It is a stretch. The numbers you cite mean nothing. David is my favorite player of all time but I also realize that Robinson only lived up to about 75% of what he could have been. He did not have the drive like MJ and Kobe. He did not have the drive like Duncan who has aged way better than Robinson and has worked to have an all-around game that was not based on athleticism alone.

What do you mean the numbers I cite mean nothing? They do mean something and are extremely relevant in a conversation that is about an INDIVIDUAL not an INDIVIDUAL surrounded by a great team.

Dennis Rodman was the best rebounder I EVER saw. He didnt try for 1/2 his career. He could have been untouchable in total rebounds. Just because he didnt "live up" to his potential doesnt mean he wasnt the greatest rebounder I ever saw. It just means he wasnt passionate about the game or had other things that to him were more important. It may make me think he was a waste but it takes nothing against the fact that when he DID TRY HIS HARDEST he could out-rebound anyone at any time.

David was soft. He Had no mean streak. He shied away from the moment because he either played scared or didnt want it as bad as Malone/Hakeem/Shaq. But that didnt mean he wasnt better than those listed. He was, and the sad thing is, as you noted, he was better than those players WITHOUT THE DRIVE.

MJ had 4 all stars with him every time he won a ring. Kobe had similar situations. David Robinson had Vinny Del Negro, Rod Strickland, the best player he had on his team was a what 34 year old Terry Cummings? AND David STILL had better stats than anyone besides mike.

There will never be a 7 footer as athletic, as good of a shooter, and with the instincts of David Robinson. To say otherwise is ludicrous.

[dbreiden83080]

Dave was also a defensive monster.

He was but Hakeem abused him so badly when David needed to prove he was up to the task..

[hitmantb]

Unfortunately 95 series killed his reputation and he will be a top 25-50 in most books between Dirk and KG, his true potential is much higher but never fulfilled.

To be fair replace him with Duncan and I don't think Duncan would have done any better in the era David played in with the coach/roster he had. There is Jordan and his stacked teams, prime Hakeem, prime Stockton/Malone. And Spurs did not have the front office it has today and Popovich. For players who "disappeared when it mattered", these tend to be players who carried their teams all season and in the end their body betrayed them and just didn't have enough left in the tank. A lot of it is actually not mental at all! Players eventually run out of gas if you ask them to play 40 minutes a night and put up monster numbers to compensate for weak roster!

Luck is a huge part of everyone's strength. What if LeBron did not have the perfect team waiting for him in Miami and stuck with Cavs for a few more years? He could have very very easily fell to Kevin Garnett tier (whom I believe, is not nearly as far off Duncan as their historical rankings suggest). What if Duncan played in a big market team for Phil Jackson? He could have been the perfect teammate for Kobe Bryant and easily won 6 titles.

There is no what-if however. David was my favorite player despite his flaws. Same with Duncan who in all honesty, had a ton of problem with Shaq and Wallace Brothers and would have very easily been labelled soft if Big Shot Rob did not bail him out (same way Ray Allen saved LeBron's career). It is fate and sometimes there is nothing you can do about it. I would say peak David Robinson is EASILY as good as peak Tim Duncan, if not better.

[Sean Cagney]

Unfortunately 95 series killed his reputation and he will be a top 25-50 in most books between Dirk and KG, his true potential is much higher but never fulfilled.

To be fair replace him with Duncan and I don't think Duncan would have done any better in the era David played in with the coach/roster he had. There is Jordan and his stacked teams, prime Hakeem, prime Stockton/Malone. And Spurs did not have the front office it has today and Popovich. For players who "disappeared when it mattered", these tend to be players who carried their teams all season and in the end their body betrayed them and just didn't have enough left in the tank. A lot of it is actually not mental at all! Players eventually run out of gas if you ask them to play 40 minutes a night and put up monster numbers to compensate for weak roster!

Luck is a huge part of everyone's strength. What if LeBron did not have the perfect team waiting for him in Miami and stuck with Cavs for a few more years? He could have very very easily fell to Kevin Garnett tier (whom I believe, is not nearly as far off Duncan as their historical rankings suggest). What if Duncan played in a big market team for Phil Jackson? He could have been the perfect teammate for Kobe Bryant and easily won 6 titles.

There is no what-if however. David was my favorite player despite his flaws. Same with Duncan who in all honesty, had a ton of problem with Shaq and Wallace Brothers and would have very easily been labelled soft if Big Shot Rob did not bail him out (same way Ray Allen saved LeBron's career). It is fate and sometimes there is nothing you can do about it. I would say peak David Robinson is EASILY as good as peak Tim Duncan, if not better.
Duncan used to routinely light up LA in the playoffs when we lost even! He did not have a ton of trouble with Shaq and he even had some serious where he flat out dominated win or lose. He had some struggles in the 05 Finals but came through when it mattered and outscored and rebounded the BROTHERS combined in game one and two! Not too shabby at all. Duncan would not be considered as soft because when the game is on the line and so on he usually brings it! D ROB never had the love for the game or drive Duncan had to winning! D ROB is pure athleticism and a freak of nature, Tim relied on Fundamentals and just was a student of the game and worked hard while D ROB just had it naturally but never had the drive some have like Tim or Jordan etc.

I agree on the Tim and Kobe thing, 6 titles is not far fetched at all. I don't know how Tim would have done in the MJ era but honestly MJ said a few out there and only a few could play in his era and TIM was one of them! I would say he would know something about that era to be able to say that and say Tims game could have succeeded in the real era where they could handcheck and played hard D etc. I agree D ROB did carry some teams though, he had no Manu or Tony out there and Elliott was traded away for a year or so and that was his closest thing to consistent help. D ROB was badass but as you said 95 did hurt his reputation and not having a ring until Tim came along did as well.

If DR had Tim his whole career that would have been a sight to see, they complimented eachother well.

[Sean Cagney]

I have a question: If DROB is not even close to top 10 then why does only Jordan have a better career WS/48?

Similarly, Why is DROB top 4 in PER for a career?

David Robinson in his prime was arguably THE BEST CENTER of all time. He had virtually no help until the 98 season, when he was 1/2 the player he used to be. You consider TD one of the greatest ever, but if he was stuck on some shit team (a la Garnett or ROBINSON) he wouldnt have any rings. David had no player that was even remotely comparable to having the skill of Parker or Ginobili on his team. TD had both. Im not taking away from TD because I feel that he is undoubtedly the best PF of all time, but anyone who has played sports knows that there is more to a player than his skills, its got a lot to do with system, confidence, and LUCK. Robinson was never Lucky enough to have 2 HOF'ers in their prime on his team while he was in his prime.

So you use PER now for the all time greats? Are you serious? D ROB I love to death but he i snot a top center of all times. Hakeem and Shaq and Wilt are ahead of him. I agree he had little help out there but Elliott was not NO HELP at all, yes that guy who helped us win our first title as well! DROB was a freak of nature and athletic beyond belief, did not have the fundamentals Tim had though nor the will or drive to win that few have! He never had that passion for the game to just take over a series or game when most were down and just carry the team (37 year old Tim last year in game 6 putting up 31 and 17 to try and will them to win! D ROB could not do that near that age). I don't hear anyone say D ROB is the best Center of all times.

I agree Parker and Ginobili have helped no doubt! I would love for those two as teammates and I surely think D ROB would have too. There is more to a player than SKILLS YES! THE drive, the will and the grit to carry a team like Duncan did in 03 for D ROB to get that last ring! He has that drive that few have and you can see it when he plays the game, takes losses harder than most I have seen like game 6 last year and other playoff losses, you hardly see that passion out of a player unless they are an all time legend. I agree D ROB did not have TWO HOF's on his side that part is true. I do not have D ROB in the top 20 all times though! He is between 25 and 50 on my list and most will agree there. 95 really tarnished him believe it or not, some never looked at him the same again whether it's rightfully so or justified or not.


I have love for D ROB though and he saved the franchise IMO, forever a huge fan. I won't look at PER though and say he is only behind Jordan or near that on all time ranks.

[tholdren]

He was but Hakeem abused him so badly when David needed to prove he was up to the task..
In the playoffs, yes, but regular season Robinson was 30-12 against The Dream. Their stats were almost identical.

Regular Season Glossary · SHARE · Embed · CSV · PRE · LINK (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=robinda01#stats::none) · ?



Player
G
W
L
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


David Robinson (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinda01.html)
42
30
12
42
37.7
7.0
14.3
.488
0.1
0.1
.600
5.5
7.7
.717
3.3
7.9
11.2
2.9
2.2
3.3
3.0
3.4
19.6


Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html)
42
12
30
41
37.7
8.8
20.0
.441
0.0
0.1
.167
4.2
5.4
.768
3.4
7.8
11.2
2.8
1.9
3.4
2.9
4.0
21.9

[hitmantb]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01

The difference is Spurs had David Robinson guarding Shaq plus significant double teams, and Lakers put scrubs on Duncan and just worked him one-on-one. Shaq's impact on the game was noticeably bigger until 2003 when Duncan finally broke out. In 4th quarter when Shaq guarded Duncan, he pretty much shut Duncan down, by then fatigue comes in and without speed advantage Duncan has no way of dealing with Shaq's brute strength. Kobe rains jumpers, Duncan misses a couple and Lakers won. This is why I felt 1999 Spurs was the strongest of them all with David at his best.

Back on topic, there is no way Duncan would have done anything with David's pre-1998 coach/roster, but there is no what if's in history.

[Phenomanul]

Unfortunately 95 series killed his reputation and he will be a top 25-50 in most books between Dirk and KG, his true potential is much higher but never fulfilled.

To be fair replace him with Duncan and I don't think Duncan would have done any better in the era David played in with the coach/roster he had. There is Jordan and his stacked teams, prime Hakeem, prime Stockton/Malone. And Spurs did not have the front office it has today and Popovich. For players who "disappeared when it mattered", these tend to be players who carried their teams all season and in the end their body betrayed them and just didn't have enough left in the tank. A lot of it is actually not mental at all! Players eventually run out of gas if you ask them to play 40 minutes a night and put up monster numbers to compensate for weak roster!

Luck is a huge part of everyone's strength. What if LeBron did not have the perfect team waiting for him in Miami and stuck with Cavs for a few more years? He could have very very easily fell to Kevin Garnett tier (whom I believe, is not nearly as far off Duncan as their historical rankings suggest). What if Duncan played in a big market team for Phil Jackson? He could have been the perfect teammate for Kobe Bryant and easily won 6 titles.

There is no what-if however. David was my favorite player despite his flaws. Same with Duncan who in all honesty, had a ton of problem with Shaq and Wallace Brothers and would have very easily been labelled soft if Big Shot Rob did not bail him out (same way Ray Allen saved LeBron's career). It is fate and sometimes there is nothing you can do about it. I would say peak David Robinson is EASILY as good as peak Tim Duncan, if not better.

This is a very insightful post. Unfortunately this type of logical [bigger picture type] analysis eludes the capabilities of most fans... for them it's easier to construct an argument based strictly on the comparison of two numbers, than to consider the context by which those numbers [i.e. stats] were generated/accrued.

For example, David amassed his stats before the hand-check era, before zone-defenses were allowed, when a lot more contact was allowed, mostly prior to the arrival of the restrictive circle... in other words, his offensive numbers would be even gaudier in today's league, and his defensive stats would have flourished (imagine David as a weak-side defender where zone-defense was allowed)... that said, the defensive 3 second rule could have impacted his defensive game detrimentally... Again, having to speculate about a player's adaptability to certain rules given the context of rule changes ruins a direct comparison between players of different eras...

Anyways, I agree with your secondary premise... LUCK is a huge part of the equation. Luck alters hardware (or lack thereof). Hardware alters perceptions. Perceptions alters history. And all three factor into players' legacies...

[Killakobe81]

I don't think Pau is overrated tbh. All is see is Laker fans shitting all over him. If he gets praised by Spurfan, it's probably to balance out all the undeserved criticism he gets from his own fanbase.

And, if you want to be objective, Pau Gasol has had a much more impressive career than Parker or Ginobili. I would put him right behind Dirk on a list of the best international players of all-time.

I think a case can be made ... for Pau over Manu. Depending on if you are speaking STRICTLY on NBA career. I think HOF wise, Manu has the stronger case because he actually despite Spain's recent rise has been the more successful international player leading Argentina to to key wins over Pau when both were in their primes and Spain favored. I like Pau he is a great player and yes he gets bad rap from some laker fans. But what about spur fans up here who shit on Manu, Tony or even Pop? Only Duncan gets fair praise and criticism on this board by most fans tbh ...

[Skull-1]

...

D ROB never had the love for the game or drive Duncan had to winning! D ROB is pure athleticism and a freak of nature, Tim relied on Fundamentals and just was a student of the game and worked hard while D ROB just had it naturally but never had the drive some have like Tim or Jordan etc.

...

If DR had Tim his whole career that would have been a sight to see, they complimented eachother well.


it came naturally and he didn't have to work hard? Didn't have drive? Have you ever seen the guy? He is pushing fifty and is ripped like prime Arnold. You don't get that way without supreme effort. The guy always made the effort. And he didn't sulk off into the sunset with a Bronze. He went back and got two Golds. That's drive right there.

[Skull-1]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=duncati01&p2=onealsh01

The difference is Spurs had David Robinson guarding Shaq plus significant double teams, and Lakers put scrubs on Duncan and just worked him one-on-one. Shaq's impact on the game was noticeably bigger until 2003 when Duncan finally broke out. In 4th quarter when Shaq guarded Duncan, he pretty much shut Duncan down, by then fatigue comes in and without speed advantage Duncan has no way of dealing with Shaq's brute strength. Kobe rains jumpers, Duncan misses a couple and Lakers won. This is why I felt 1999 Spurs was the strongest of them all with David at his best.

Back on topic, there is no way Duncan would have done anything with David's pre-1998 coach/roster, but there is no what if's in history.


:toast

[Chomag]

He was but Hakeem abused him so badly when David needed to prove he was up to the task..

I don't agree with this. 95 was a bad series for Drob against Hakeem yes but most of the times when they played each other they both played each other well, it was always fun to watch those 2 matched up.
I still think 95 series wasn't as bad as it had looked because I think Dave would have pretty much matched all of what Hakeem was doing if he hadn't had such a shit team to support him. He was double and triple teamed on about every possession.

[Arcadian]

To be fair replace him with Duncan and I don't think Duncan would have done any better in the era David played in with the coach/roster he had[...]I would say peak David Robinson is EASILY as good as peak Tim Duncan, if not better.

Disagree. Duncan would have dominated the 90s, tbh. He would have wiped his ass with Malone and Barkley, and would have had some epic battles with Hakeem and Shaq.

Robinson was never close to Duncan's peak level. Tim was a complete player, not just a PF/C. At times, he looked like a PG in a C's body. It is possible to reduce Dave's game to a super-athletic dunker/shot-blocker. Tim could score from anywhere on the court (except from 3, reliably at least), take people off the dribble one-on-one, set up teammates with perfect passes, quarterback the entire offense from the post, etc etc etc...His complete game is far superior to anything Dave ever did.

[Skull-1]

Disagree. Duncan would have dominated the 90s, tbh. He would have wiped his ass with Malone and Barkley, and would have had some epic battles with Hakeem and Shaq.

Robinson was never close to Duncan's peak level. Tim was a complete player, not just a PF/C. At times, he looked like a PG in a C's body. It is possible to reduce Dave's game to a super-athletic dunker/shot-blocker. Tim could score from anywhere on the court (except from 3, reliably at least), take people off the dribble one-on-one, set up teammates with perfect passes, quarterback the entire offense from the post, etc etc etc...His complete game is far superior to anything Dave ever did.


34 POINTS.

10 REBOUNDS.

10 ASSISTS.

10 BLOCKS.

Sounds like a pretty flipping "all around game" to me.

[Arcadian]

34 POINTS.

10 REBOUNDS.

10 ASSISTS.

10 BLOCKS.

Sounds like a pretty flipping "all around game" to me.

Meh...regular season against a 20-62 team. He probably got the assists because Detroit stopped defending everyone else. :lol I hate to "belittle" a quad-dub because it is an amazing achievement, but it doesn't demonstrate that he was a complete player at the level of Tim.

[Admiral]

Lots of stupid in this thread. Reading it makes my head hurt.

To me, when evaluating where a player ranks in all-time rankings, I don't just look at whether they had a dominant performance in a playoff series. I look at the entire body of work. Winning championships is obviously a huge part of it. Taking success into context of how talented a player's supporting cast was is also a large part of it. Also, how diverse were the player's skills? Are they good at one or two things? Or six or seven?

To me, David was really good at a lot of things. He took teams which should not have been successful, and made them successful. Just because he didn't win titles with them, without Duncan, doesn't mean that he should be eliminated from discussion of top players. Likewise, just because a player won titles and had good games, it doesn't automatically mean he should be considered among the best without also considering his supporting cast. It's all relative to me, and should be considered in context. Unfortunately, a lot of people evaluate athletes like they do politicians: they base their opinions on sound bites and media stories rather than doing their own thinking and analysis.

It's frustrating when objective measurements offered, such as David's outstanding win shares and loss shares, fall on deaf ears. Former poster whott had some outstanding posts on this topic, one of which was posted by someone else earlier in this thread. He made some outstanding points about the 1995 WCF versus Hakeem and the Rockets. Nobody even acknowledged it!!

Discussion about David's many, many successes, whether it be in individual games (71 point game, quadruple double, numerous triple doubles, 29 points in the 1996 Olympic gold medal game, etc.) or over entire seasons (MVP, Defensive POY, Rookie of the Year, IBM awards, etc.) seems to be dominated in this thread by subjective crap like "David was soft" and "Hakeem's dream shake was nasty." Some of you can do better, and you know it.

Nobody is saying that David was perfect. His game had weaknesses, for sure. Nobody is saying that he is the best player ever. But to simply dismiss what was an incredible career by a really gifted player, based on an unfairly biased view that Hakeem beat him in 1995 and David never won without Duncan, is sad. Especially from Spurs "fans" who should know better.

[polandprzem]

Former poster whott had some outstanding posts on this topic, one of which was posted by someone else earlier in this thread. He made some outstanding points about the 1995 WCF versus Hakeem and the Rockets. Nobody even acknowledged it!



To whott :toast

[Phenomanul]

Lots of stupid in this thread. Reading it makes my head hurt.

To me, when evaluating where a player ranks in all-time rankings, I don't just look at whether they had a dominant performance in a playoff series. I look at the entire body of work. Winning championships is obviously a huge part of it. Taking success into context of how talented a player's supporting cast was is also a large part of it. Also, how diverse were the player's skills? Are they good at one or two things? Or six or seven?

To me, David was really good at a lot of things. He took teams which should not have been successful, and made them successful. Just because he didn't win titles with them, without Duncan, doesn't mean that he should be eliminated from discussion of top players. Likewise, just because a player won titles and had good games, it doesn't automatically mean he should be considered among the best without also considering his supporting cast. It's all relative to me, and should be considered in context. Unfortunately, a lot of people evaluate athletes like they do politicians: they base their opinions on sound bites and media stories rather than doing their own thinking and analysis.

It's frustrating when objective measurements offered, such as David's outstanding win shares and loss shares, fall on deaf ears. Former poster whott had some outstanding posts on this topic, one of which was posted by someone else earlier in this thread. He made some outstanding points about the 1995 WCF versus Hakeem and the Rockets. Nobody even acknowledged it!!

Discussion about David's many, many successes, whether it be in individual games (71 point game, quadruple double, numerous triple doubles, 29 points in the 1996 Olympic gold medal game, etc.) or over entire seasons (MVP, Defensive POY, Rookie of the Year, IBM awards, etc.) seems to be dominated in this thread by subjective crap like "David was soft" and "Hakeem's dream shake was nasty." Some of you can do better, and you know it.

Nobody is saying that David was perfect. His game had weaknesses, for sure. Nobody is saying that he is the best player ever. But to simply dismiss what was an incredible career by a really gifted player, based on an unfairly biased view that Hakeem beat him in 1995 and David never won without Duncan, is sad. Especially from Spurs "fans" who should know better.

Here it is... but it will be glossed over yet again...

and it's whottt with 3 t's



1). None of the Spurs' role players showed up consistently in that series. In fact, Dennis Rodman, Robinson’s notorious front court mate, went completely crazy [moreso than usual] in the middle of the series. If he had simply imploded and quit on his team, it may have been surmountable. But no, he went bat-shit crazy and sabotaged the Spurs’ chances for winning the series all-together by being largely responsible for putting them in an 0-2 hole to start the series, AT HOME, no less!! The majority of those that use this series as an argument to knock Robinson’s legacy NEVER mention this fact. Apparently, no one outside of San Antonio even remembers this subterfuge – as if Rodman’s 0 for 5 from downtown in Games 1 and 2 wasn’t sufficient a clue. Upon closer inspection [I’ve watched that series more than I care to admit] Rodman’s sabotage is more cunning. Nonchalantly closing out on three point shooters [which, when motivated, Rodman was one of the best – as was the case against the Lakers’ bombers the series before], doubling the wrong man, fouling at a higher clip than usual, ‘inadvertently’ setting picks against his OWN players, etc… When San Antonio media questioned his antics after Game 1, he cunningly pointed to his free-throw shooting as a counter-argument to the suggestion that he “was playing for the other guys”. In other words, Rodman only cared about his rebounds [as usual, for personal reasons only – not because he cared about winning the actual games], and pretended to care by ensuring his free-throws were ‘well taken’. That is some downright Machiavellian scheming right there – and most would probably never believe that Rodman was capable of such maneuvering. But I saw it, Rudy T. saw it, Bob Hill failed to react to the obvious, and the Rockets took advantage – all at David Robinson’s expense. Lo and behold, ESPN neglected the story.

2). Robinson was constantly double-teamed by Horry and Olajuwon, or by Olajuwon and Charles Jones (whose sole purpose in that series was to hack away at Robinson – in just 88 minutes played over 6 games, Jones averaged a whopping 7.7 fouls per 36 min (for a total of 19 fouls)!!, 84% of which were committed against Robinson]. The Spurs couldn't counter because it left one of Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Kenny Smith, Clyde Drexler or Mario Elie WIDE OPEN for threes. Game 1, Game 3 and the clincher in Game 6 were decided by critically clutch shots made by these bombers. Most people solely credit Olajuwon for the series victory, due to his other-worldly stats, but utterly fail to mention that 3 games were decided by his shooters!

a). For the series, the Rockets were 44 of 127 from downtown (for a respectable, but not great, 34.6%). Breaking it down further however, they were 13/29 in the 4th quarters (44.8%), and 9/17 in the "clutch" (52.9%) [5 minutes or less in a close game]. For being considered a “weak” team, that type of support will get it done every time. All the Greats have had the benefit of clutch shooting from their respective supporting casts on their way to rings. Robinson’s supporting casts NEVER gave him that sort of help. Olajowon’s did. It’s as simple as that.

b). The Spurs, by contrast were 23 of 72 from downtown for the series (31.9%). 8/27 in 4th quarters (29.6%), and 4/13 in the the "clutch" (30.8%). In other words, the opposite trend.

c). Last year, Amar'e scorched a Duncan-led Spurs team to the tune of 37 ppg (vs. Hakeem's 35.3 ppg in that ill-fated '95 series) [normalized, the difference is more prominent; Amar'e scored 0.89 points per minute vs. Hakeem's 0.81 points per minute]. The Spurs prevailed, largely in part to the Spurs' balanced attack (Spurs' "Big Three" of Duncan, Parker and Ginobili all averaged above 20 ppg for the series) and this squad could actually contribute from beyond 3-point territory (44/107 for 41.1%). Contrary to popular belief, not all of Amar'e's scoring came off of Nash's pick'n'roll sets. He excelled in the open court on transition baskets, 23% of his scoring came by way of the charity stripe, and another 18% of his baskets came off of isolation plays against Duncan or Nazr Mohammed. In other words, he was a prolific, all-around, scoring machine (by Spurs' defensive design, of course). That said, no one in their mind would claim that Amar'e is a better player than Duncan, but had the Suns won the series those stats could certainly be touted against Duncan to make the case. The point being, that CONTEXT is everything. And unfortunately for Robinson, the media and the casual fan have taken a lackadaisical approach by using the ‘95 series, and specifically ONE particular play that is played ad nauseam as the de facto series’ abridged summary [credit to Olajuwon] to tarnish Robinson’s place among the best. It certainly didn’t help that Robinson’s well-deserved MVP award was used as the ‘driver’ to hype up the drama between the two all-star centers, to help build up TV ratings for a series that largely failed to captivate the casual fan once the Spurs ousted the Lakers in the Conference Semifinals. Olajuwon further emphasized said ‘motivation’ only after his ticket to the Finals was secured, an expressed sentiment that unfortunately threw more dirt Robinson’s way. Olajuwon then made sure that the collective memory of that series would degrade Robinson's legacy forever and embellished the series outcome after the summer of 1996, when Robinson outplayed both him and Shaq for the starting gig on the Atlanta 1996 Dream Team II squad. In other words, Olajuwon is a douche-bag as a competitor. Never once did Robinson speak negatively about his contemporaries (Ewing, Shaq, Olajuwon, Mourning, etc...), never once did he fabricate personal vendettas to hype up their head-to-head match ups [which Robinson holds over every one of those centers]. It's the 'good guy' persona that the media just absolutely hates. The media clamors for upstanding athletes, and role models but only because they make excellent news after they fall from grace or screw-up. David never did, so the only way they can knock him is by undermining his legacy.

[Skull-1]

Meh...regular season against a 20-62 team. He probably got the assists because Detroit stopped defending everyone else. :lol I hate to "belittle" a quad-dub because it is an amazing achievement, but it doesn't demonstrate that he was a complete player at the level of Tim.


Per 36 Dave has more Points, Blocks, Steals, and Shooting Percentage (FT and from both 2 and 3) than Tim.


Similar in Assists (edge Tim), Turnovers (edge Dave), and Rebounds (edge Tim -- 11.0 to 11.5).

[Phenomanul]

Per 36 Dave has more Points, Blocks, Steals, and Shooting Percentage (FT and from both 2 and 3) than Tim.


Similar in Assists (edge Tim), Turnovers (edge Dave), and Rebounds (edge Tim -- 11.0 to 11.5).

One could contend that Robinson's prime rebounding numbers are better than Timmy's. One must also consider the fact that for several years Robinson had to share available rebounds with one of (if not) the best rebounders in NBA history... it's not a stretch of the imagination to conclude that being paired with Rodman would have caused his own rebounding numbers to suffer. Even so, two of David's seasonal per 36 numbers are above Timmy's best ever seasonal average...

[Skull-1]

One could contend that Robinson's prime rebounding numbers are better than Timmy's. One must also consider the fact that for several years Robinson had to share available rebounds with one of (if not) the best rebounders in NBA history... it's not a stretch of the imagination to conclude that being paired with Rodman would have caused his own rebounding numbers to suffer. Even so, two of David's seasonal per 36 numbers are above Timmy's best ever seasonal average...

And Dave also had a season of almost 30 ppg. Tim never came close to that.


Dave's 3rd best year is superior to Tim's best, and his fourth best is just under it by a fraction.

Dave was a beast. Tim has never been anything close to prime Dave.

[Skull-1]

And Dave also had a season of almost 30 ppg. Tim never came close to that.


Dave's 3rd best year is superior to Tim's best, and his fourth best is just under it by a fraction.

Dave was a beast. Tim has never been anything close to prime Dave.

Come to think of it, Tim was Robin to Dave's Batman. Pippen to Dave's Jordan. Prime Dave would squash prime Tim and it isn't even close. Look at the man's arms for freak sake! Timmy would be snapped like a twig!


Tim was the little bit needed to get Dave over the top after years of overachievement with crap teams. The crazy expectation that the best player was enough to win it all.... Dave was that player...

[spurraider21]

6

[Sean Cagney]

it came naturally and he didn't have to work hard? Didn't have drive? Have you ever seen the guy? He is pushing fifty and is ripped like prime Arnold. You don't get that way without supreme effort. The guy always made the effort. And he didn't sulk off into the sunset with a Bronze. He went back and got two Golds. That's drive right there.

He never had the drive to win the titles like Tim did, period....... He never had that WILL TO WIN A SERIES and take over like TIM DID IN 99 or 03, period.
Come to think of it, Tim was Robin to Dave's Batman. Pippen to Dave's Jordan. Prime Dave would squash prime Tim and it isn't even close. Look at the man's arms for freak sake! Timmy would be snapped like a twig!


Tim was the little bit needed to get Dave over the top after years of overachievement with crap teams. The crazy expectation that the best player was enough to win it all.... Dave was that player...
You are out of your fucking mind....... Period.
One could contend that Robinson's prime rebounding numbers are better than Timmy's. One must also consider the fact that for several years Robinson had to share available rebounds with one of (if not) the best rebounders in NBA history... it's not a stretch of the imagination to conclude that being paired with Rodman would have caused his own rebounding numbers to suffer. Even so, two of David's seasonal per 36 numbers are above Timmy's best ever seasonal average...

And he still did not have the drive or will that Tim had in his prime to work on his game and win titles. D ROB is a freak of nature like I said and was crazy! But he was not Tim when it came to fundamentals of the game nor will to win, period. Tim just had that extra gear he did not have. If DROB with that freak of nature skillset he had and athleticism had that will to win TIM Had he would be top 5 of all times and we all know this. DO PER and so on all you want but us true fans know Tim is the better player and always was the better player because of his skillset and his will to win the titles. No comparison there. One was so gifted beyond belief with athleticism, the other just a drive like MJ and Kobe have had etc.

[Sean Cagney]

Disagree. Duncan would have dominated the 90s, tbh. He would have wiped his ass with Malone and Barkley, and would have had some epic battles with Hakeem and Shaq.

Robinson was never close to Duncan's peak level. Tim was a complete player, not just a PF/C. At times, he looked like a PG in a C's body. It is possible to reduce Dave's game to a super-athletic dunker/shot-blocker. Tim could score from anywhere on the court (except from 3, reliably at least), take people off the dribble one-on-one, set up teammates with perfect passes, quarterback the entire offense from the post, etc etc etc...His complete game is far superior to anything Dave ever did.

YOUR DAMN RIGHT! MJ asked about a few today who could have played then, Tim was one of them right off the bat. These guys in here are fooling themselves now saying D ROB was better than Tim or near Tim in his prime! Tim was just on another level. D ROB was athletic as hell and a great player, but Tim was special! Tim is an all time great and the best at his position ever. I love Robinson but lets get real here folks without Tim blacking out in 99 and 03 D ROB has NO RINGS. Tim is just a better player overall and most will see that who study the game.

Any true fan would see what you said here is 100% true and accurate, some clowns though in here will say well he had some better numbers etc. What you said is dead on and the truth. :lobt2:

[Arcadian]

YOUR DAMN RIGHT! MJ asked about a few today who could have played then, Tim was one of them right off the bat. These guys in here are fooling themselves now saying D ROB was better than Tim or near Tim in his prime! Tim was just on another level. D ROB was athletic as hell and a great player, but Tim was special! Tim is an all time great and the best at his position ever. I love Robinson but lets get real here folks without Tim blacking out in 99 and 03 D ROB has NO RINGS. Tim is just a better player overall and most will see that who study the game.

Any true fan would see what you said here is 100% true and accurate, some clowns though in here will say well he had some better numbers etc. What you said is dead on and the truth. :lobt2:

:tu Plus, Dave himself openly admitted that Tim was better than him, and not just at their respective ages at the time. He always promoted the fact that Tim was the best player on earth, and on a higher level than himself. He knew it because it was undeniable.

And I'm not shitting on Dave either...I've got him top 20, which is hardly a slight. Despite his flaws, he WAS a beast on both ends in the mid 90s. We can appreciate them both while acknowledging Tim as superior.

[Johnny RIngo]

I think a case can be made ... for Pau over Manu. Depending on if you are speaking STRICTLY on NBA career. I think HOF wise, Manu has the stronger case because he actually despite Spain's recent rise has been the more successful international player leading Argentina to to key wins over Pau when both were in their primes and Spain favored. I like Pau he is a great player and yes he gets bad rap from some laker fans.

I was talking about NBA only(I don't put any value in international basketball). And yeah, it seems most objective bball fans have Pau above Manu on the all-time international lists. Dirk is well ahead of everybody else though.


But what about spur fans up here who shit on Manu, Tony or even Pop? Only Duncan gets fair praise and criticism on this board by most fans tbh ...

Spurs fans only shit on Pop to counter balance the 'tards that label him the GOAT coach.

Most of the Manu hate is because of his retarded decision to keep playing bball for Argentina when he should be resting. As a result, he spends large amounts of the season out with injury. Otherwise, Manu has a devoted fanbase on the forums.

And the Parker hate is sometimes deserved. People do a 180 on him every time he puts up great regular season numbers. We get MVP threads and shit like "Parker's the best damn PG in league. LOL Chris Paul" Then the playoffs happens and his inability to step up in the post-season frustrates most fans. Compare that to Pau who's been a pretty good playoff performer for most of his career.

[Phenomanul]

He never had the drive to win the titles like Tim did, period....... He never had that WILL TO WIN A SERIES and take over like TIM DID IN 99 or 03, period.
You are out of your fucking mind....... Period.

And he still did not have the drive or will that Tim had in his prime to work on his game and win titles. D ROB is a freak of nature like I said and was crazy! But he was not Tim when it came to fundamentals of the game nor will to win, period. Tim just had that extra gear he did not have. If DROB with that freak of nature skillset he had and athleticism had that will to win TIM Had he would be top 5 of all times and we all know this. DO PER and so on all you want but us true fans know Tim is the better player and always was the better player because of his skillset and his will to win the titles. No comparison there. One was so gifted beyond belief with athleticism, the other just a drive like MJ and Kobe have had etc.

Don't get me wrong, I love Timmay... all he does is win, win, win. Of the two, Tim has had by far the most illustrious career, having the ability and drive to age gracefully without a dropoff in per minute production (which is why he is also on most people's top ten ever). But prime Robinson would have edged prime Duncan, simply because all else being equal he would have had the speed to blow by Duncan, while having the length to keep Tim's most prominent physical advantage (his own length) in check. That said, it's not a landslide either way (as Skull-1 claims for Robinson or yourself in Tim's favor). IMO out of 10 hypothetical head-to-head matchups, with both players in their prime, DRob takes 6.

Addressing your calling out of Dave's 'drive factor'. I don't know how many other players (at 7 feet, no less - in which the complications abound even more) would have played 2 entire seasons with a herniated disc (let's ask Ryan Anderson how that's working out for him). And it's not like Robinson was taking the easy road by loading up on painkillers; in fact, he refused to take more than one shot per week to prevent permanent damage to his neuralogical system. It is under those conditions that he battled Shaq in the playoffs; when Shaq was a dominant opponent, and when most players (healthy or otherwise) would shy away from being subjected to The Diesel's abuse in the paint (simply from an overwhelming disparity in sheer force and power that Shaq had on most front court players). In all honesty, it downright sucks that the Spurs' fanbase is Robinson's biggest discreditor.

Had Robinson been surrounded with Timmy's casts and also had the benefit of playing under Pop's defensive schemes (with a Bowen-type perimeter defender), he would have likely attained some hardware as the alpha-dog prior to Duncan's arrival. It's true, I agree that Duncan is more obsessed with the game of basketball than Robinson ever was (to Duncan's credit); but to imply that Robinson lacked the 'will to win' or that he didn't work on his game is an unfair assemssment against Dave's integrity. Dave had the will, otherwise he wouldn't have carried such scrubby teams to the gaudy records that were beyond the expectations of his supporting casts. But that right there is the crux of the problem, his casts simply weren't good enough. If they had been we wouldn't be sitting here discussing Dave's drive to win' or lack thereof.

[Chomag]

Had Robinson been surrounded with Timmy's casts and also had the benefit of playing under Pop's defensive schemes (with a Bowen-type perimeter defender), he would have likely attained some hardware as the alpha-dog prior to Duncan's arrival. It's true, I agree that Duncan is more obsessed with the game of basketball than Robinson ever was (to Duncan's credit); but to imply that Robinson lacked the 'will to win' or that he didn't work on his game is an unfair assemssment against Dave's integrity. Dave had the will, otherwise he wouldn't have carried such scrubby teams to the gaudy records that were beyond the expectations of his supporting casts. But that right there is the crux of the problem, his casts simply weren't good enough. If they had been we wouldn't be sitting here discussing Dave's drive to win' or lack thereof.

To add to this I think allot of people forget just how competitive the NBA was in the 90's. It wasn't like it is today with only 2-3 dominate teams and the rest of the league being all crap like it is these days. You had a shit ton of HoFs all in their primes during those years. For Robinson to take scrub teams to all but one season with winning records was no feat to scoff at, and that one losing season being only because David was injured that whole year. Drob almost took his team all by himself to the finals a couple of times pre-Duncan. It amazes me how people keep bringing up the 95 series against Hakeem to bring Drob down a few notches. If Drob was on the Rockets with their roster and Hakeem was on the Spurs with what roster David had it would have been about the same outcome, but people would be talking about how Hakeem was dominated that series. Do people forget that this was the same Rockets team that won the Championship that year? Chuck Daily said it best during Drobs rookie year. He said he knew there was something special about David the first day he saw him play.

[Admiral]

What's with most of you questioning DRob's drive and will to win?!? Do you know him personally? Has he told you that he never worked on his body or his game?

Please don't make the mistake if assuming that he accomplished what he did just because of his athleticism. Of course he was an outstanding athlete, but so were plenty of other guys in the NBA then like Jordan, Pippen, Malone, Olajuwon, Barkley, etc. David worked really hard on his game. Despite not picking up the game of basketball until his senior year of high school, he worked hard enough to put up incredible numbers as a junior and senior at Navy. He made another jump in his skills when he was a rookie, and again after his third year in the league.

This was a critical offseason. David added about 15 pounds of muscle to his frame, and improved his offensive skills to allow him to increase his scoring average by about 6 ppg. It was at this time that he won the scoring title, MVP, and made the Spurs a legitimate contender. The fact that the Spurs couldn't get over the hump should not be blamed on David. Rather, David deserves the credit for putting the Spurs into contention in the first place. Remember, Jordan didn't win anything until he had Pippen and Horace Grant. And Barkley couldn't win it all despite having KJ, Ceballos, and Majerle. Malone couldn't win it despite having Stockton and Hornacek. Yet David's desire gets called into question for not winning a title with Elliott, Rodman, Avery Johnson, and Vinny Del Negro?!?

I have decided that a lot of people decided that David's lack of drive is due to him being a nice guy who had a lot of other interests. It's a shame that these people forget how hard he played, what a great team leader he was, how many injuries he played through without complaining, and how much he hated to lose. I think these aspects of his career got overshadowed by what a good person he is. As much as I appreciate David Robinson the man, I hate that it causes some people to not realize the competitor he was.

[Sean Cagney]

Don't get me wrong, I love Timmay... all he does is win, win, win. Of the two, Tim has had by far the most illustrious career, having the ability and drive to age gracefully without a dropoff in per minute production (which is why he is also on most people's top ten ever). But prime Robinson would have edged prime Duncan, simply because all else being equal he would have had the speed to blow by Duncan, while having the length to keep Tim's most prominent physical advantage (his own length) in check. That said, it's not a landslide either way (as Skull-1 claims for Robinson or yourself in Tim's favor). IMO out of 10 hypothetical head-to-head matchups, with both players in their prime, DRob takes 6.

Addressing your calling out of Dave's 'drive factor'. I don't know how many other players (at 7 feet, no less - in which the complications abound even more) would have played 2 entire seasons with a herniated disc (let's ask Ryan Anderson how that's working out for him). And it's not like Robinson was taking the easy road by loading up on painkillers; in fact, he refused to take more than one shot per week to prevent permanent damage to his neuralogical system. It is under those conditions that he battled Shaq in the playoffs; when Shaq was a dominant opponent, and when most players (healthy or otherwise) would shy away from being subjected to The Diesel's abuse in the paint (simply from an overwhelming disparity in sheer force and power that Shaq had on most front court players). In all honesty, it downright sucks that the Spurs' fanbase is Robinson's biggest discreditor.

Had Robinson been surrounded with Timmy's casts and also had the benefit of playing under Pop's defensive schemes (with a Bowen-type perimeter defender), he would have likely attained some hardware as the alpha-dog prior to Duncan's arrival. It's true, I agree that Duncan is more obsessed with the game of basketball than Robinson ever was (to Duncan's credit); but to imply that Robinson lacked the 'will to win' or that he didn't work on his game is an unfair assemssment against Dave's integrity. Dave had the will, otherwise he wouldn't have carried such scrubby teams to the gaudy records that were beyond the expectations of his supporting casts. But that right there is the crux of the problem, his casts simply weren't good enough. If they had been we wouldn't be sitting here discussing Dave's drive to win' or lack thereof.
Fair enough you are probably correct here..... I will say this is a great post.

To say D ROB did not care is a joke, he after the Memorial Day Miracle was just jumping up and down like a little kid! Then seeing him in 03 Mavs series game 6 on the bench jumping up and down! He wanted to win his whole career and you could tell! The fact he went out on top you could tell also meant the world to him! 13 and 17 with the injuries and knees and back he had was just crazy in game 6 vs NJ! He said I will not play another night before that game, hence he went all out to win that game and proved that night he wanted to be a champ at 37! Tim at 37 did that last year with 31-17 but it's too bad they did not win that game or series. D ROB did want to win and I know that, but it just seems TIM has a drive like few others in this game and thats why I said what I said because he worked on his game so much while D ROB was just a pure natural athlete with all the gifts and Tim is just work and fundamentals who started playing BBALL later in his life (Swimmer first etc.) and went all out t learn the game.

[Skull-1]

What's with most of you questioning DRob's drive and will to win?!? Do you know him personally? Has he told you that he never worked on his body or his game?

Please don't make the mistake if assuming that he accomplished what he did just because of his athleticism. Of course he was an outstanding athlete, but so were plenty of other guys in the NBA then like Jordan, Pippen, Malone, Olajuwon, Barkley, etc. David worked really hard on his game. Despite not picking up the game of basketball until his senior year of high school, he worked hard enough to put up incredible numbers as a junior and senior at Navy. He made another jump in his skills when he was a rookie, and again after his third year in the league.

This was a critical offseason. David added about 15 pounds of muscle to his frame, and improved his offensive skills to allow him to increase his scoring average by about 6 ppg. It was at this time that he won the scoring title, MVP, and made the Spurs a legitimate contender. The fact that the Spurs couldn't get over the hump should not be blamed on David. Rather, David deserves the credit for putting the Spurs into contention in the first place. Remember, Jordan didn't win anything until he had Pippen and Horace Grant. And Barkley couldn't win it all despite having KJ, Ceballos, and Majerle. Malone couldn't win it despite having Stockton and Hornacek. Yet David's desire gets called into question for not winning a title with Elliott, Rodman, Avery Johnson, and Vinny Del Negro?!?

I have decided that a lot of people decided that David's lack of drive is due to him being a nice guy who had a lot of other interests. It's a shame that these people forget how hard he played, what a great team leader he was, how many injuries he played through without complaining, and how much he hated to lose. I think these aspects of his career got overshadowed by what a good person he is. As much as I appreciate David Robinson the man, I hate that it causes some people to not realize the competitor he was.


Well said. People see Dave's humility and graciousness as a lack of drive. Meanwhile, Tim's stoicism is seen as hyperdrive. Funny that same trait in McGrady is seen as apathy. Any way....

Dave has character. He has downplayed his own accomplishments to compliment others. He has never done a thing to burnish his own legacy. He has sacrificed his rightful place to elevate people like Duncan. This should only heighten our awareness of what a special player he was. Also, he was a graduate of the Naval Academy. No small feat that is. The guy is a once in a lifetime player.