If LeBron doesn't win another championship....

[313]

Where does he rank all time?
A lot of you are quick to anoint him to top 5 but eeeeh with only two rings after joining the super friends? Idk

Discuss.

[HarlemHeat37]

Blindly measuring a player's worth by rings is an antiquated method of ranking legacies, tbh..

The 2 other "super friends" haven't been anything near superstars in most of Miami's 2 titles runs, for instance:lol..

[scanry]

He's greater than all of em besides MJ, Magic & KAJ tbh.

[313]

Blindly measuring a player's worth by rings is an antiquated method of ranking legacies, tbh..

The 2 other "super friends" haven't been anything near superstars in most of Miami's 2 titles runs, for instance:lol..D Wade started breaking down their second year, but he was good in 2011. And they only have themselves to blame for not getting the full potential of Bosh. Although Bosh is pretty clutch for them, and quietly gets his.

[RD2191]

Rings are all that matter, he needs at least 4 more to surpass MJ. Why do I say that? Well because he basically admitted to this when he left Cleveland for Miami. If rings don't matter then why not stay in Cleveland? He put himself in this situation so unless he wins 4 more he will never be considered GOAT.

[313]

He's greater than all of em besides MJ, Magic & KAJ tbh.

Larry Bird??

[AchillesHeel]

Blindly measuring a player's worth by rings is an antiquated method of ranking legacies, tbh..

The 2 other "super friends" haven't been anything near superstars in most of Miami's 2 titles runs, for instance:lol..

why did your hero abandon his team in the first place? Oh yeah, rings. He also said "not 4 not 5 not 6 not 7"

now when he's breaking down rings don't matter :lol

[RsxPiimp]

An amazing Finals run is the only thing holding Lebron back IMO.

[Thebesteva]

In order for him to not win again it must be a disastrous reason why.

[Ghazi]

best I ever seen, tbh.

[Ghazi]

Lebron is doing it against a much tougher era.

[Jacob1983]

Lebron is definitely better than DWhistle and Raptor when it comes to the time all ranks. DWhistle hasn't been the same since being wheeled off in that wheel chair because he hurted his arm.

[Ghazi]

International players, coaches and defenses are way more better these days. more analytics are being applied by more teams... there's more talent in the league. better player development, better everything.

Mainly the inclusion/explosion of international players, which have affected numerous Finals teams (Nowitzki, Gasol, Parker/Ginobili)

[313]

Lebron is doing it against a much tougher era.

Not sheriff srs
He basically gets a 2 round bye to the ECF every year and then punks some young Buck team and that's his road to the finals. If he was in the West, you would have an argument.

[313]

International players, coaches and defenses are way more better these days. more analytics are being applied by more teams... there's more talent in the league. better player development, better everything.

Mainly the inclusion/explosion of international players, which have affected numerous Finals teams (Nowitzki, Gasol, Parker/Ginobili)

So you're saying this era has tougher D than the 80s era? I'm just asking, I wasn't alive in the 80s so maybe you're spitting troof bombs rn.

[Ghazi]

round 2 bye to ECF? like the Celtics in '11 and the Pacers in '12?

Only last year was a "bye" in the 2nd round.

[313]

round 2 bye to ECF? like the Celtics in '11 and the Pacers in '12?

Only last year was a "bye" in the 2nd round.

True but I'm still not convinced this is the toughest era of basketball

[HarlemHeat37]

why did your hero abandon his team in the first place? Oh yeah, rings. He also said "not 4 not 5 not 6 not 7"

now when he's breaking down rings don't matter :lol

I didn't say rings don't matter, I said ranking players by ring count is fucking stupid, tbh:lol..

Bill Russell is unarguably the GOAT according to ring count advocates:lol..Horry > Dad Killer, too..

If you want to argue that Horry shouldn't count because these arguments are reserved for star players, then where do you draw the line?..how do you decide which players to exclude from the argument?..how do you weigh the value of each player's title run?..

[Ghazi]

His impact on the game is undeniably surreal.

He can't be criticized for 2 rings because he's been on a contender only ever since joining the Heat.

Even if he didn't win one from now on he should go down as at least 2nd best ever.

[Ghazi]

btw a lot of people think Heat would be done if they didn't win this year... not true, Lebron is only 29... Heat will be around for the next half decade IMO, although I think the Pacers / Thunder / Warriors have more upside.

[HarlemHeat37]

The 90s had the following teams as contenders: a team with Reggie Miller as a best player(:lmao), a team with John Starks(Monta Ellis 2.0) as the 2nd best player, a team with Rik Smits and past his prime Reggie as the best players, etc:lmao..

[313]

The 90s had the following teams as contenders: a team with Reggie Miller as a best player(:lmao), a team with John Starks(Monta Ellis 2.0) as the 2nd best player, a team with Rik Smits and past his prime Reggie as the best players, etc:lmao..

No one ITT mentioned the 90s.

[313]

he should go down as at least 2nd best ever..........am I being punk'd

[HarlemHeat37]

No one ITT mentioned the 90s.

Dad Killer is the consensus GOAT, he's the comparison..

[Ghazi]

Bosh/Wade is pretty much on par with Pippen/Rodman, Id rather have Pippen/Rodman, tbh.

the superfriends argument is weak.

[313]

Dad Killer is the consensus GOAT, he's the comparison..

Ghazi made the argument that he's playing in a tougher era. I responded with a comparison to the 80s, which I believe is the tougher era.

[313]

Bosh/Wade is pretty much on par with Pippen/Rodman, Id rather have Pippen/Rodman, tbh.

the superfriends argument is weak.

This is a weaker era though so it balances out

[Phillip]

Larry Bird??

huge Bird fan here, and personally i think Bird > Magic, but Lebron >>> Bird already. no question about it.

fact is, Lebron is already getting some legit arguments as being the greatest ever, and hes barely in his prime. 2-3 more rings, and continued excellence at this current level, and I think there is no disputing it whatsoever, that hes the greatest ever.

[Cry Havoc]

This is a weaker era though so it balances out

No, it's not.

[lefty]

Lebron is doing it against a much tougher era.
http://img.pandawhale.com/44880-Han-Solo-smiling-gif-FuLH.gif

[Cry Havoc]

huge Bird fan here, and personally i think Bird > Magic, but Lebron >>> Bird already. no question about it.

fact is, Lebron is already getting some legit arguments as being the greatest ever, and hes barely in his prime. 2-3 more rings, and continued excellence at this current level, and I think there is no disputing it whatsoever, that hes the greatest ever.

Eh, let's not forget at his peak that Jordan was the best offensive and defensive player in the league. Guy was a monster and brought it every night.

LeBron's got quite the road ta' hoe before he ascends to the peak, tbh. Though if he gets another MVP he's gotta be top 3 all-time.

[HarlemHeat37]

The only players that had as much 2-way responsibility as Lebron are 2003 Duncan and 1994 Olajuwon, tbh..

Lebron is one of 4 players in NBA history to win a title by leading his team in Points, Assists, Rebounds and either Steals/Blocks..he's also one of 4 #1 guys in NBA history to win a title with his 2nd option averaging 16 PPG or less, tbh..

[lefty]

lolno Lebron is not better than Bird

[313]

huge Bird fan here, and personally i think Bird > Magic, but Lebron >>> Bird already. no question about it.

fact is, Lebron is already getting some legit arguments as being the greatest ever, and hes barely in his prime. 2-3 more rings, and continued excellence at this current level, and I think there is no disputing it whatsoever, that hes the greatest ever.

2-3 more rings? He is only 29. TP is like 30 or 31 so I guess it's not outlandish.

I really hope he doesn't ring again though...

[Cry Havoc]

lolno Lebron is not better than Bird

I'd still have Bird ahead of LeBron, just because Bird's career resume is so damn impressive. But LeBron is right there. He's right there.

[313]

lolno Lebron is not better than Bird

[Ghazi]

I think people are underrating just how great this era of basketball is and just how advanced NBA have gotten as far as coaching, analytics, advanced stats, etc etc.

[313]

Bird took that Celtics team from the lottery to 60+ win season his rookie year iirc

[Rogue]

He's tied with Tim Duncan career-wise if he doesn't win no more rings imho. Sure his impact on the game can be surreal but I don't think he functions as the hub of a system as much as Duncan does with the Spurs. Bron has to do things himself to help his team, but he hardly makes the team and teammates better, so when age takes its toll on him, it'll be very hard for him to continue to lead his team with limited athleticism imho.

[BatManu20]

I initially took Lebron out of the equation for GOAT altogether when he decided to spurn his squad to team up with 2 of the best players in the game in order to win, and then followed that with playing embarrassingly bad in the '11 Finals where he averaged only 2 PPG in the 4th quarter of that series and shot 60% from the FT line while being extremely passive in crunch time.

He's redeemed himself with his play since then though, and is playing at a level rarely seen in this league. Right now he's the 2nd best player I've ever seen play, only behind MJ. Larry Bird is a close 3rd though imo. He's the most gifted athlete I've ever seen play the game, and I fully expect him to win at least a couple more Championships, maybe even 3, depending on what he does in Free Agency and Wade's health in the future.

[lefty]

Bird took that Celtics team from the lottery to 60+ win season his rookie year iirc
this
And he didnt have Parrish and McHale yet

just a bunch of TOSB's

[Ghazi]

Duncan, Durant, Nowitzki... that's 3 top 20 all time players he's played in the Finals.

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol Dad Killer wasn't even the best defensive player on his own team and rarely guarded opposing star players..he also played in probably the weakest era for perimeter players, tbh..

[Budkin]

Lebron is doing it against a much tougher era.

NO way in hell. You can't even touch guys now, just like Payton was saying the other day. This is an era of pussies and flopping. Stick LeCrab in the 90s and see how many rings he wins. Jordan 3-peated twice during the most physical era of the NBA.

[Killakobe81]

I initially took Lebron out of the equation for GOAT altogether when he decided to spurn his squad to team up with 2 of the best players in the game in order to win, and then followed that with playing embarrassingly bad in the '11 Finals where he averaged only 2 PPG in the 4th quarter of that series and shot 60% from the FT line while being extremely passive in crunch time.

He's redeemed himself with his play since then though, and is playing at a level rarely seen in this league. Right now he's the 2nd best player I've ever seen play, only behind MJ. Larry Bird is a close 3rd though imo. He's the most gifted athlete I've ever seen play the game, and I fully expect him to win at least a couple more Championships, maybe even 3 or 4, depending on what he does in Free Agency and Wade's health in the future.

agree with bolded ..you lose me with the rest.

[Ghazi]

Also, Lebron did have moments of struggle in the 2011 and 2013 Finals but keep in mind he was going up against two great coaches with great defensive schemes and defensive players (Marion/Chandler, Leonard/Duncan). Hard to say but I'd imagine Pop and Carlisle wouldn't let Jordan go god mode on them either.

Malone/Stockton Jazz were known for physicality but not great defense, tbh.

[spurraider21]

the era question is a good debate. the perimeter talent today is probably better than that of the 90's, but it was also a much more physical game. with today's rules in place, who knows how many solid offensive players in the 90's would have looked a lot better.

i just dont get how people can go on and on about how watered down the league is in one thread and then go on to call this era super difficult in another thread

[313]

Duncan, Durant, Nowitzki... that's 3 top 20 all time players he's played in the Finals.

Lost to Dirk
OKC wasn't ready, and got worked
Should have lost to Duncan. Again.

[lefty]

the era question is a good debate. the perimeter talent today is probably better than that of the 90's, but it was also a much more physical game. with today's rules in place, who knows how many solid offensive players in the 90's would have looked a lot better.

i just dont get how people can go on and on about how watered down the league is in one thread and then go on to call this era super difficult in another thread
http://inkslingerblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/clint-nod.gif

[BatManu20]

I think people are underrating just how great this era of basketball is and just how advanced NBA have gotten as far as coaching, analytics, advanced stats, etc etc.

To some degree, yes, but it's also become significantly softer with the surplus in FT shooting and the lack of quality Centers takes away from it a bit imo.

[Phillip]

This is a weaker era though so it balances out

not really.

out of the 80s, 90s, 2000s, and 10s, the 90s is easily the weakest overall era. MJ dominated in the period after transcendent stars like Magic, Bird, Kareem, Moses, Isaiah and others were out of their prime, but before transcendent stars like Shaq, Kobe, Timmy, Dirk, etc began their primes. The pool of superstar talent in the 90s was definitely weaker. Charles was great, Hakeem was great, Robinson was very very good but not transcendent, same for Ewing, and Malone is massively overrated.

[313]

the era question is a good debate. the perimeter talent today is probably better than that of the 90's, but it was also a much more physical game. with today's rules in place, who knows how many solid offensive players in the 90's would have looked a lot better.

i just dont get how people can go on and on about how watered down the league is in one thread and then go on to call this era super difficult in another thread
Truu
I saw someone post on here that the league changed some rule in like '04 and 20 guards averaged 20+ ppg. I know, very vague statistic, but it's common knowledge that the league has catered to guards/ wings more since the Post hand having era tbh.

[Phillip]

Bird took that Celtics team from the lottery to 60+ win season his rookie year iirc

no question he accomplished quite a bit, but his team that he inherited had some solid talent.

Lebron inherited Ricky Davis and Carlos Boozer. Plus he was only 18. Bird came out of college with much more experience.

it's unfair to compare their rookie seasons. its apples to oranges

[Clipper Nation]

not really.

out of the 80s, 90s, 2000s, and 10s, the 90s is easily the weakest overall era. MJ dominated in the period after transcendent stars like Magic, Bird, Kareem, Moses, Isaiah and others were out of their prime, but before transcendent stars like Shaq, Kobe, Timmy, Dirk, etc began their primes. The pool of superstar talent in the 90s was definitely weaker. Charles was great, Hakeem was great, Robinson was very very good but not transcendent, same for Ewing, and Malone is massively overrated.
Not to mention that the NBA started changing rules to make things easier on Jordan, especially against the Bad Boy Pistons who had tormented him :lol

Oh, and flopping was very much rampant in the '90s, as were bitchmade, pussy players.... the league was watered down by expansion and they even moved the three-point line in for a couple years to inflate stats and scoring.... the media has simply chosen to ignore the reality of '90s basketball in order to prop up a mythical version of Jordan, mainly because the NBA is so unimaginative at marketing that they still rely on Jordan as a crutch over a decade after he retired....

[313]

not really.

out of the 80s, 90s, 2000s, and 10s, the 90s is easily the weakest overall era. MJ dominated in the period after transcendent stars like Magic, Bird, Kareem, Moses, Isaiah and others were out of their prime, but before transcendent stars like Shaq, Kobe, Timmy, Dirk, etc began their primes. The pool of superstar talent in the 90s was definitely weaker. Charles was great, Hakeem was great, Robinson was very very good but not transcendent, same for Ewing, and Malone is massively overrated.
They didn't have transcendent offensive stars, but maybe, just maybe, it was because they had a lot more defensive 2s and 3s back then. I don't have any stats or anything to back it up. Just throwing it out there.

[313]

Not to mention that the NBA started changing rules to make things easier on Jordan, especially against the Bad Boy Pistons who had tormented him :lol

Oh, and flopping was very much rampant in the '90s, as were bitchmade, pussy players.... the league was watered down by expansion and they even moved the three-point line in for a couple years to inflate stats and scoring.... the media has simply chosen to ignore the reality of '90s basketball in order to prop up a mythical version of Jordan, mainly because the NBA is so unimaginative at marketing that they still rely on Jordan as a crutch over a decade after he retired....I'm not sure why people keep bringing up the 90s when it was never a part of my argument.

[Phillip]

the era question is a good debate. the perimeter talent today is probably better than that of the 90's, but it was also a much more physical game. with today's rules in place, who knows how many solid offensive players in the 90's would have looked a lot better.

i just dont get how people can go on and on about how watered down the league is in one thread and then go on to call this era super difficult in another thread

handchecking is the most overrated rule change ever for 2 reasons.

1) people still handcheck, they just don't do it in such an obvious manner
2) zone defense was outlawed. utilizing certain traps and double teams were FAR less common back then.

if you have an elite scorer, handchecking won't bother them much at all. they will find ways to score. but a well timed double team? that will completely screw with the rhythm of even elite scorers.

the rule changes crap is just that. crap.

now I dont have a problem with saying the league is less physical these days, but even that gets overrated, simply because flopping is so common, so people are knee-jerk and want to say "there is no physicality today :cry:cry:cry". no, there is plenty of physicality allowed today, they just try to keep fights and unnecessary confrontations to a minimum, especially after what happened in Detroit in 04 completely jacked up the reputation of the league for years.

[Phillip]

They didn't have transcendent offensive stars, but maybe, just maybe, it was because they had a lot more defensive 2s and 3s back then. I don't have any stats or anything to back it up. Just throwing it out there.

:lmao defensive 2s and 3s

thats pretty much the worst argument ive ever seen

[Phillip]

Not to mention that the NBA started changing rules to make things easier on Jordan, especially against the Bad Boy Pistons who had tormented him :lol

Oh, and flopping was very much rampant in the '90s, as were bitchmade, pussy players.... the league was watered down by expansion and they even moved the three-point line in for a couple years to inflate stats and scoring.... the media has simply chosen to ignore the reality of '90s basketball in order to prop up a mythical version of Jordan, mainly because the NBA is so unimaginative at marketing that they still rely on Jordan as a crutch over a decade after he retired....

this.

[313]

handchecking is the most overrated rule change ever for 2 reasons.

1) people still handcheck, they just don't do it in such an obvious manner
2) zone defense was outlawed. utilizing certain traps and double teams were FAR less common back then.

if you have an elite scorer, handchecking won't bother them much at all. they will find ways to score. but a well timed double team? that will completely screw with the rhythm of even elite scorers.

the rule changes crap is just that. crap.

now I dont have a problem with saying the league is less physical these days, but even that gets overrated, simply because flopping is so common, so people are knee-jerk and want to say "there is no physicality today :cry:cry:cry". no, there is plenty of physicality allowed today, they just try to keep fights and unnecessary confrontations to a minimum, especially after what happened in Detroit in 04 completely jacked up the reputation of the league for years.

So what are you saying? Do you honestly believe LeBron is playing in a tougher era than Bird and Johnson?

[Phillip]

I'm not sure why people keep bringing up the 90s when it was never a part of my argument.

considering you saying that this was a weaker era, came in response to a comparison between current stars in Bosh/Wade to 90s stars in Pippen/Rodman, you brought it upon yourself

[Arcadian]

TC has a good point. I wouldn't have him top 5 with just these two rings. But then again, that's not really my reason. My reason is that he's a SF and I'd take several big men over him.

[spurraider21]

handchecking is the most overrated rule change ever for 2 reasons.

1) people still handcheck, they just don't do it in such an obvious manner
2) zone defense was outlawed. utilizing certain traps and double teams were FAR less common back then.

if you have an elite scorer, handchecking won't bother them much at all. they will find ways to score. but a well timed double team? that will completely screw with the rhythm of even elite scorers.

the rule changes crap is just that. crap.

now I dont have a problem with saying the league is less physical these days, but even that gets overrated, simply because flopping is so common, so people are knee-jerk and want to say "there is no physicality today :cry:cry:cry". no, there is plenty of physicality allowed today, they just try to keep fights and unnecessary confrontations to a minimum, especially after what happened in Detroit in 04 completely jacked up the reputation of the league for years.
how would james harden's FT antics have worked for him in the 80's or 90's, tbh?

[313]

Also lol @ discounting rings. If you're the number one option on a team then Rings are one of the most important measures of success. Especially for LeBron who darted from Cleveland and claimed he was going to bring 7+ rings to South Beach. Ha.

[Phillip]

So what are you saying? Do you honestly believe LeBron is playing in a tougher era than Bird and Johnson?

i think todays era is every bit as competitive as its ever been.

people just love having revisionist history, and not looking at all the facts. such as massively inflated stats in the 80s due to the higher tempos, along with absolutely atrocious defense. defense really didn't become good until the 90s. before the 90s, defense was "hard fouls". but staying on your feet, contesting jumpers, and general defensive strategy was pretty much absent in the 80s and before.

[HarlemHeat37]

Also lol @ discounting rings. If you're the number one option on a team then Rings are one of the most important measures of success. Especially for LeBron who darted from Cleveland and claimed he was going to bring 7+ rings to South Beach. Ha.

So Bill Russell is the greatest of all-time, in your opinion?..that's fine, I'm just curious..

[313]

TC has a good point. I wouldn't have him top 5 with just these two rings. But then again, that's not really my reason. My reason is that he's a SF and I'd take several big men over him.

Thanks for the simple reply. Mind sharing your top 5? No order needed.

[Phillip]

how would james harden's FT antics have worked for him in the 80's or 90's, tbh?

who knows? people in the 80s and 90s didn't know of as many loopholes in the rules as people do today. while i think he gets awarded some crap freethrows, by the letter of the rule, what he does, often is a legit foul. don't blame him. blame the people who wrote the rules. he is just finding ways to work them well, just like Rodman found ways to work the rules with flopping back in the late 80s.

people act like flopping just started recently, but it hasn't. its been around for a loooooooong time :lol

[spurraider21]

who knows? people in the 80s and 90s didn't know of as many loopholes in the rules as people do today. while i think he gets awarded some crap freethrows, by the letter of the rule, what he does, often is a legit foul. don't blame him. blame the people who wrote the rules. he is just finding ways to work them well, just like Rodman found ways to work the rules with flopping back in the late 80s.

people act like flopping just started recently, but it hasn't. its been around for a loooooooong time :lol
i'm not blaming him. just pointing out how certain players might look better today than they would have in previous eras

[Clipper Nation]

people act like flopping just started recently, but it hasn't. its been around for a loooooooong time :lol

Seriously.... all the people who think flopping is a modern invention should read this SI article from 1963 :lol

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075469/

[313]

So Bill Russell is the greatest of all-time, in your opinion?..that's fine, I'm just curious..

He's top 5 but I can't honestly say #1 because the competition wasn't the same and different rules. It was a very different nba. . But I have no doubt he would still be a dominant player in today's game. Just maybe not 11 title runs. Haha

Like, the nba must have been so boring after he won his fourth or filth in a row.

[Phillip]

i'm not blaming him. just pointing out how certain players might look better today than they would have in previous eras
and vice versa. MJ may not look quite as good in this slower paced era, with notably more general athleticism, where he isn't 3 classes above the next closest athlete, like he was at one time. he wouldnt even be the best athlete in the league right now, and would have to work harder to defend more wing talent in general.

how good would Magic Johnson or Larry Bird be in today's league? I'm sure they would be great, but transcendent stars like they were in the 80s? doubt it. they don't have the luxury of frequently being defended by a bunch of unathletic white dudes.

[jimbo]

So you're saying this era has tougher D than the 80s era? I'm just asking, I wasn't alive in the 80s so maybe you're spitting troof bombs rn.

You had dogshit, then 3 years of the Bad Boys pistons with the rest of the league still dogshit.

:lol Alex English


NO way in hell. You can't even touch guys now, just like Payton was saying the other day. This is an era of pussies and flopping. Stick LeCrab in the 90s and see how many rings he wins. Jordan 3-peated twice during the most physical era of the NBA.

Jordan got his ass kicked by the bad boys. He watched them ring twice after they punished his ass.

What actually tough teams did he ring through?

[lefty]

lol Magic and Bird would destroy niggas today

Players may be more athletic today, but most of them are dumb as fuck

And it's not like they were defended by unathletic white dudes in the 80s

[Phillip]

lol Magic and Bird would destroy niggas today

Players may be more athletic today, but most of them are dumb as fuck

And it's not like they were defended by unathletic white dudes in the 80s

no one is saying they wouldnt be great.

and there werent dumbass players in the 80s? even so, fact is, you can have the highest IQ in the world, if you physically are incapable of playing a high level of defense, then that IQ means nothing. at least if you have a high level of athleticism, even if you misuse it, you can still cause problems in different ways.

the general level of athleticism in the league is worlds higher today than it was in the 80s. anyone who says otherwise is a moron of extreme proportions and should seriously consider suicide

[313]

lol Magic and Bird would destroy niggas today

Players may be more athletic today, but most of them are dumb as fuck

And it's not like they were defended by unathletic white dudes in the 80s

[Phillip]

You had dogshit, then 3 years of the Bad Boys pistons with the rest of the league still dogshit.

and even then, their defense wasn't THAT good. it was mostly just a bunch of unnecessarily physical fouls and bullying tactics. their defense wouldnt do crap to any championship team of the past 20 years. they would just get worked. imagine them trying that crap against some of these spurs teams. it would go nowhere and they would just get mindscrewed to death.

2004 Pistons defense >>>>>>>>>>> any badboy pistons defense

[spurraider21]

the fact that duncan is still one of the best bigs in the league tells you that prime bird and magic would have been JUST fine in today's more athletic league tbh :lol

[lefty]

Dr J, David Thompson, Michael Cooper, Worthy, Sampson, Olajuwon , Jordan, Pippen, Wilkins,Drexler, Spudd Webb

What an unathletic era

[HI-FI]

lefty's good work in this thread being undone by that fucking avatar.

[Phillip]

Dr J, David Thompson, Michael Cooper, Worthy, Sampson, Olajuwon , Jordan, Pippen, Wilkins,Drexler, Spudd Webb

What an unathletic era

aaaaand thats about the extent of the athleticism. and those were all star players. maybe another few here and there, but not much more.

today? pretty much every team has a scrub or two who has athleticism on par with the stars of the league. then basically every team has another role player or two that also has comparable athleticism to star level players. the league is simply littered with athleticism today compared to back then.

I don't even know why you are trying to debate this.

[Phillip]

the fact that duncan is still one of the best bigs in the league tells you that prime bird and magic would have been JUST fine in today's more athletic league tbh :lol

1) Duncan is a transcendent player.

2) he is a big man, in a league that doesn't have as much general competition at his position as there once was. heavily due to the fact that post play simply isn't nearly as easy or effective as it once was, due to the general increase in athleticism. its not nearly as easy to A) get post position B) control the ball in the post with the rule changes that allow zone and more double teams C) make the right decision on whether to shoot or pass when help defenders are so much faster and longer than they used to be. Oh, and most importantly of all, just a general increase in defensive strategy as well. It's becoming more and more effective for your big men to focus on defense/rebounding, and jumpshooting for spacing, as opposed to clogging the lane and trying to pound their way to the bucket.

3) Bird and Magic were wing players. They would have much different (greater) challenges to face than Duncan currently does.

4) No one said they wouldn't be great. In fact, I think my first sentence was "they would be great". But the two best players in the league for nearly a decade, as they were in their time? Strongly doubt it. They would constantly be overshadowed over the past 10-15 years or so by other transcendent stars like Shaq, Timmy, Lebron, Kobe, Dirk, Durant, etc... I doubt that they would ever be a top 2 player in the league while having to overcome the greatness of all those other players. One of those two guys going to basically every finals of the decade? Heck, lets replace Dirk with Bird, and Kobe with Magic, just to make it fair by eliminating 2 elite players. No way they accomplish anything close to what they did, while having to combat Shaq, Timmy, and Lebron.

[lefty]

Undersized and fat-assed 80's Barkley would whoop DeMonkey and Griffin's asses



Yeah, athleticism is betterz cuz they jump higherz and dunkz !!!!

[RsxPiimp]

The game has evolved, sports science has improved therefore impacting the players in a positive light. It's a different league and the game is just better for all of it, there's not much argument left. My only gripe is how some of the league's best players are resorting to flopping.

[lefty]

lefty's good work in this thread being undone by that fucking avatar.
of course


Regarding the avy, I will change it soon since you seem to be losing sleep over it :lol

[HI-FI]

of course


Regarding the avy, I will change it soon since you seem to be losing sleep over it :lol

:lol
just disappointed son you rooting for the patriots. it's all good, you don't need to change it.

[TDMVPDPOY]

the monkeys today will be expose by fundamental teams that actually run plays for their production

monkeys and runngun system has been exposed by the spurs half court system

magic will have no problem playing today, whether he wins rings or not is another question depending what is built around him

as for bird, u can always hide him behind 4 other dependable defensive players, just like at dirk for example....he gets shit on for defense, but it is good enough to keep him on the floor...

[lefty]

:lol
just disappointed son you rooting for the patriots. it's all good, you don't need to change it.
Im not a Pats fan



Or am I ?

[spurraider21]

Im not a Pats fan



Or am I ?
you started the season as a raider fan :cry

you were legit too, mentioning lamarr houston and shit

[Ghazi]

Would Jordan have won 6 straight during the 2000s?

highly doubt it.

[Arcadian]

Thanks for the simple reply. Mind sharing your top 5? No order needed.

Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Jordan, and TIMMAH

[lefty]

you started the season as a raider fan :cry

you were legit too, mentioning lamarr houston and shit
Nah I just like their logo / jersey

[TDMVPDPOY]

Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Jordan, and TIMMAH

wilt is overrated man

and hakeem to an extent....if he didnt win rings in those 2 years he peaked, he probably be below drob

just cause of those 2 years, they think his been playin like that his whole career....

[rayjayjohnson]

Lebron is doing it against a much tougher era.

big ghaz with the truth

[rayjayjohnson]

wilt is overrated man

and hakeem to an extent....if he didnt win rings in those 2 years he peaked, he probably be below drob

just cause of those 2 years, they think his been playin like that his whole career....

remember how hakeem went no vaseline on d-rob? now, i know he was in the navy, but it didnt look like he enjoyed it

[AchillesHeel]

big ghaz with the truth

what a tough era...the 2nd best player is a mentally fragile beta-chucker, who gets 10+ free throws every game, the best big man doesn't even know how to post up.

Lebron's competition in the 2012 playoffs: NY Knicks :lol, a younger Indiana that they struggled against without Bosh, needing Wade to go balls deep, WCF a squad full of TOSBs + Rondo raping that Heat ass until Lebron had one game, where his jumper fell, they won 4 games in a row in the Finals against a young, inexperienced OKC team.

2013 playoffs: Milwaukee Bucks :lol, Bulls without their 3 best players, WCF Indy took them to 7 games, and they would have won in 6 if their stupid coach doesn't take Hibbert out to give Lebron an open lane for a layup :lol, Finals Lebron needed Manu and Kawhi to miss a FT, Bosh had to rebound his missed 3pter two times and Jesus had to make a miracle 3 :lol

Yeah, this era has been so tough, especially when the Eastern Conference is the shittiest it has been in the last decade, definitely shitter than in the late 80s/90s with the bad boy Pistons, Celtics, Pacers, Zo on the Heat, Ewing on the Knicks and Shaq and Penny in Orlando...MJ faced top 50 all-time players in the playoffs year in year out.

[Stalin]

Not hard to see the agendas here, hh obviously hanging on leCrab nuts for dear life, lashing out at anyone trying to deflate his hero. Mavfan propping up leHype to make Nazi Dirk's single good run in his career more than it is, clearly, to cover up for all the choking he did prior.

[313]

aaaaand thats about the extent of the athleticism. and those were all star players. maybe another few here and there, but not much more.

today? pretty much every team has a scrub or two who has athleticism on par with the stars of the league. then basically every team has another role player or two that also has comparable athleticism to star level players. the league is simply littered with athleticism today compared to back then.

I don't even know why you are trying to debate this.

and the Spurs, the most dominant team of the last 15 years, continue to win all the while lacking athletic players. Explain this, Philip.

Jordan, one the best athletes in the 80s couldn't win, because athleticism isn't everything bruh.

[313]

Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Jordan, and TIMMAH

I'd take Magic over Maybe Kareem or Hakeem, but good list.

[ambchang]

If Lebron gets a career ending injury tomorrow and quit the game of basketball, he would be ranked the same as Shaq. Similar number of alpha rings, similar level of dominance over a similar period of time, require another superstar and some timely shots from role players to win championships, similar career, really when you look at it overall with all the leave a weaker franchise and join another to win rings.

Now, the manner in which he wins his later rings will determine where he stands at the end of the day. If he continued to be the unquestionable alpha on his team and maintains the level of dominance, then his stock will go up. However, if he acts as a second banana or go and coattail rings ala Payton/semi-Shaq, then it's not going to affect his standings much.

The key for him is just to continue to dominant the league like he did in 2012, do that a few more years, and he will have a shot at the top 3 or 5. The GOAT dominated the league for 6 years, with no peers during that time. The only time somebody came close to him (Drexler), he annihilated him in the finals.

[ambchang]

aaaaand thats about the extent of the athleticism. and those were all star players. maybe another few here and there, but not much more.

today? pretty much every team has a scrub or two who has athleticism on par with the stars of the league. then basically every team has another role player or two that also has comparable athleticism to star level players. the league is simply littered with athleticism today compared to back then.

I don't even know why you are trying to debate this.

Dennis Hopson, Johnny Walker, and Dee Brown were plenty athletic back in the day, didn't do anything for them.

[313]

Dennis Hopson, Johnny Walker, and Dee Brown were plenty athletic back in the day, didn't do anything for them.

What he fails to realize is that there are plenty of athletic players in the league rn but most of them are scrubs and their records are like 10-27

[DMC]

Not sheriff srs
He basically gets a 2 round bye to the ECF every year and then punks some young Buck team and that's his road to the finals. If he was in the West, you would have an argument.

Then he has to beat the best team in the West.

[Phillip]

what a tough era...the 2nd best player is a mentally fragile beta-chucker, who gets 10+ free throws every game, the best big man doesn't even know how to post up.

and who was the 2nd best player in the 90s? Olajuwon who never faced Jordan's Bulls? Ewing, who was a major choker? Robinson who was a great all around player but not a true #1 offensive option? Charles who never won crap? Malone? :lol :lol :lol Drexler? meh

Let's just compare the superstar competition.

Jordan vs. Olajuwon, Ewing, Drexler, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Payton, younger Shaq

or

Lebron vs. Kobe, Wade, Timmy, Dirk, Durant, Garnett, Dwight, Pierce, Nash, CP3, older Shaq

yeah, the latter competition is unquestionably superior.


Lebron's competition in the 2012 playoffs: NY Knicks :lol, a younger Indiana that they struggled against without Bosh, needing Wade to go balls deep, WCF a squad full of TOSBs + Rondo raping that Heat ass until Lebron had one game, where his jumper fell, they won 4 games in a row in the Finals against a young, inexperienced OKC team.

2013 playoffs: Milwaukee Bucks :lol, Bulls without their 3 best players, WCF Indy took them to 7 games, and they would have won in 6 if their stupid coach doesn't take Hibbert out to give Lebron an open lane for a layup :lol, Finals Lebron needed Manu and Kawhi to miss a FT, Bosh had to rebound his missed 3pter two times and Jesus had to make a miracle 3 :lol

Yeah, this era has been so tough, especially when the Eastern Conference is the shittiest it has been in the last decade, definitely shitter than in the late 80s/90s with the bad boy Pistons, Celtics, Pacers, Zo on the Heat, Ewing on the Knicks and Shaq and Penny in Orlando...MJ faced top 50 all-time players in the playoffs year in year out.

Yep, and Jordan having to go through teams like Atlanta with Christian Lattener and Steve Smith as your best players, or the Bullets with young Juwan Howard and Webber was particularly difficult. How about Miami, starring Glen Rice and Rony Seikaly? Oh yeah those are some truly rough teams to deal with. The Nets with Keith Van Horn and and Sam Cassell? Truly some superstar talent there. Or the Hornets with *gasp* Glen Rice again and David Wesley?

Quit with the revisionist history already. Every great player that wins championships goes through some teams with great players, and some teams with weak competition. That's just how things go, especially when you are consistently getting a high seed, and thus getting rewarded with playing easier competition.

[Phillip]

Dennis Hopson, Johnny Walker, and Dee Brown were plenty athletic back in the day, didn't do anything for them.

So the general increase in athleticism hasn't changed the way the game is played at all? You should have an objective enough mind to understand that.


What he fails to realize is that there are plenty of athletic players in the league rn but most of them are scrubs and their records are like 10-27

What you fail to realize is that you have not brought any good points or legitimate arguments to the table. All you have done is piggyback on more knowledgeable posters, because you are incapable of debating effectively.

[Riddler]

Players today are probably more athletic, but lack fundamentals.

[Phillip]

and the Spurs, the most dominant team of the last 15 years, continue to win all the while lacking athletic players. Explain this, Philip.

Jordan, one the best athletes in the 80s couldn't win, because athleticism isn't everything bruh.

team concepts always beat athleticism, no one has said otherwise.

but Jordan was a 1-on-1 player. his 1-on-1 scoring would not be as effective with facing bigger, stronger, and faster players on a nightly basis, slower pace of game, along with greater defensive strategy that was allowed with the rule chance that allowed zone defense. He wouldn't be averaging 30+ppg on 50% shooting every single season like he was able to in his day.

He wasn't able to win in the 80s, because of a higher level of competition than the 90s, just like he wouldn't win 6 out of 8 in todays league, due to a higher level of competition.

[AchillesHeel]

and who was the 2nd best player in the 90s? Olajuwon who never faced Jordan's Bulls? Ewing, who was a major choker? Robinson who was a great all around player but not a true #1 offensive option? Charles who never won crap? Malone? :lol :lol :lol Drexler? meh

Let's just compare the superstar competition.

Jordan vs. Olajuwon, Ewing, Drexler, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Payton, younger Shaq

or

Lebron vs. Kobe, Wade, Timmy, Dirk, Durant, Garnett, Dwight, Pierce, Nash, CP3, older Shaq

yeah, the latter competition is unquestionably superior.



Yep, and Jordan having to go through teams like Atlanta with Christian Lattener and Steve Smith as your best players, or the Bullets with young Juwan Howard and Webber was particularly difficult. How about Miami, starring Glen Rice and Rony Seikaly? Oh yeah those are some truly rough teams to deal with. The Nets with Keith Van Horn and and Sam Cassell? Truly some superstar talent there. Or the Hornets with *gasp* Glen Rice again and David Wesley?

Quit with the revisionist history already. Every great player that wins championships goes through some teams with great players, and some teams with weak competition. That's just how things go, especially when you are consistently getting a high seed, and thus getting rewarded with playing easier competition.

I'd stake Stockton over any other PG in this era and Robison over any other Center.

[Phillip]

Players today are probably more athletic, but lack fundamentals.

I think people are missing the point. It's not like MJ and stars of the 80s and 90s would get to face defenders like Craig Ehlo on a nightly basis.

In today's league, there is a highly athletic wing defender on nearly every team. One night its Sefalosha, then its Artest, then Tony Allen, then Shane Battier, then Shawn Marion, then Paul George, then AK-47, and the list goes on. And those aren't including the star players that can step up and play a high level of defense when called upon, like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Pierce, and plenty more.

[313]

team concepts always beat athleticism, no one has said otherwise.

but Jordan was a 1-on-1 player. his 1-on-1 scoring would not be as effective with facing bigger, stronger, and faster players on a nightly basis, slower pace of game, along with greater defensive strategy that was allowed with the rule chance that allowed zone defense. He wouldn't be averaging 30+ppg on 50% shooting every single season like he was able to in his day.

He wasn't able to win in the 80s, because of a higher level of competition than the 90s, just like he wouldn't win 6 out of 8 in todays league, due to a higher level of competition.
that's what I've been saying this whole time -___-


Team concepts beat athleticism, no one has said otherwise so how can you say Magic and Bird wouldn't dominate in today's nba or vice versa with LeBron?

Plus, with less double teams, and less double teams, LeBron's assist wouldn't be as high since no one is collapsing down to help and leaving people open for threes. One on one, his poor shooting ability would be exposed in the 80s.

[Phillip]

I'd stake Stockton over any other PG in this era

:lmao

[313]

So the general increase in athleticism hasn't changed the way the game is played at all? You should have an objective enough mind to understand that.



What you fail to realize is that you have not brought any good points or legitimate arguments to the table. All you have done is piggyback on more knowledgeable posters, because you are incapable of debating effectively.
Class is about to start but i got you when I get out

Edit: pepper ur angus

[ambchang]

So the general increase in athleticism hasn't changed the way the game is played at all? You should have an objective enough mind to understand that.



What you fail to realize is that you have not brought any good points or legitimate arguments to the table. All you have done is piggyback on more knowledgeable posters, because you are incapable of debating effectively.

Certainly changed the game. Can't say for better or worse though.

What I can say is that athleticism does not equate to better basketball talent. Players like stromile swift and Harold miner comes into mind. On the other end of the spectrum, Larry bird, Tim Duncan or even a pre-injury Brandon Roy comes into play.

[Phillip]

so how can you say Magic and Bird wouldn't dominate in today's nba or vice versa with LeBron?

I never said they wouldn't dominate. Do you not read my posts? The very first thing I said, was that "they would be great". What I was saying is that there is no way that the two of them combine to be in every single finals series through the past decade, like they did in the 80s. Why? Because of a higher level of competition.


Plus, with less double teams, and less double teams, LeBron's assist wouldn't be as high since no one is collapsing down to help and leaving people open for threes. One on one, his poor shooting ability would be exposed in the 80s.

Lebron gets most of his assists off of transition, or dish and drive. Most people don't get a lot of assists off of drawing double teams in post position, because usually to find the open man out of that position, it takes 2-3 swing passes around the perimeter. Otherwise Timmy, Olajuwon and Shaq would have been getting 10 APG for much of their career.

One on one Lebron wouldn't need to shoot. He would just physically brutalize his way to the cup, considering players on average were smaller, weaker, and slower than they are today.

[AchillesHeel]

:lmao

You'd take CP3 or Nash over Stockton? The guy who played every game for 16 out of 18 seasons, barely missed a game and led his team to the Finals for 2 straight years?

[RsxPiimp]

Yep, and Jordan having to go through teams like Atlanta with Christian Lattener and Steve Smith as your best players, or the Bullets with young Juwan Howard and Webber was particularly difficult. How about Miami, starring Glen Rice and Rony Seikaly? Oh yeah those are some truly rough teams to deal with. The Nets with Keith Van Horn and and Sam Cassell? Truly some superstar talent there. Or the Hornets with *gasp* Glen Rice again and David Wesley?


At least try to be objective :lol. The Bulls still had tougher competition in their championship years compared to Miami.

Miami, with Hardaway and Mourning
Magic, Shaq and Penny
Early 90's Knicks would beat Miami in a series.
Bird coached Pacers-Miller, Smit, Smith Bros, Jackson

Miami had to go through

Boston who were in their last legs
Bulls who missed Rose in one of the series
Iguodala led Sixers
Melo's Knicks
Brandon Jenning's Milwaukee Bucks

All of those teams, minus Boston are a joke :lol

[Phillip]

Certainly changed the game. Can't say for better or worse though.

What I can say is that athleticism does not equate to better basketball talent. Players like stromile swift and Harold miner comes into mind. On the other end of the spectrum, Larry bird, Tim Duncan or even a pre-injury Brandon Roy comes into play.

I completely agree with you.

But with having to face bigger, faster, stronger players on an nightly basis, makes things a little different.

People keep mistaking what I am saying, thinking I am implying that 80s or 90s players wouldnt be good simply because of increased athleticism, which is not what I've said. I've said a combination of bigger, faster, stronger players, increased defensive strategy, a slower pace, and rule changes that allow zone and more traps/double teams will make it more difficult for players to dominate the way they used to be able to. MJ wouldn't be putting up the outrageous numbers annually like he once was. Magic's fast break wouldn't be as effective. Bird's post game wouldn't be as easy with the extra defensive attention that would be shot at him. They would all still be superstars in this era, but not be able to dominate like they used to.

[Chomag]

Lebron is just peaking at the right time for him when most teams are either rebuilding or all the other NBA superstars are at the end of their careers, yet still a 36 year old TD lead team almost beat him anyway. Also not forgetting that all the current newer superstar talents are still way to early in their careers to be competition. Put Lebron and his current team up against any of these winning teams in their primes and he wouldn't have a single ring. Shoot the Heat would never even make it out of the east if they went against early 2000 pistons or Bird in his prime Boston, not even including the Bulls.

Lebron is good but he is not as good as people rate him as.

[AchillesHeel]

I completely agree with you.

But with having to face bigger, faster, stronger players on an nightly basis, makes things a little different.

People keep mistaking what I am saying, thinking I am implying that 80s or 90s players wouldnt be good simply because of increased athleticism, which is not what I've said. I've said a combination of bigger, faster, stronger players, increased defensive strategy, a slower pace, and rule changes that allow zone and more traps/double teams will make it more difficult for players to dominate the way they used to be able to. MJ wouldn't be putting up the outrageous numbers annually like he once was. Magic's fast break wouldn't be as effective. Bird's post game wouldn't be as easy with the extra defensive attention that would be shot at him. They would all still be superstars in this era, but not be able to dominate like they used to.

So you think that if the 80s and 90s players had the medicinal and technical advantages that the players today have, they wouldn't be as good as they were back then? :lol

Obviously a kid that started watching NBA 5-10 years ago. :lol

[Phillip]

At least try to be objective :lol. The Bulls still had tougher competition in their championship years compared to Miami.

Miami, with Hardaway and Mourning
Magic, Shaq and Penny
Early 90's Knicks would beat Miami in a series.
Bird coached Pacers-Miller, Smit, Smith Bros, Jackson

Miami had to go through

Boston who were in their last legs
Bulls who missed Rose in one of the series
Iguodala led Sixers
Melo's Knicks
Brandon Jenning's Milwaukee Bucks

All of those teams, minus Boston are a joke :lol

Bucks and Sixers werent that good, similar to some of the bad teams MJ played.

The Knicks were not a bad team at all. Indiana was solid. And the thing is, Lebron isn't done yet. He has a LOT of basketball left to be played.

Now I don't disagree that the East probably had some tougher competition during MJs days, but it's not like he faced any transcendent teams either.

[gnsf0946]

So Kobe in the 90s would be as good if not better than MJ?

[Phillip]

So you think that if the 80s and 90s players had the medicinal and technical advantages that the players today have, they wouldn't be as good as they were back then? :lol

I don't disagree that they would probably have a better advantage, but we have no facts to base it on. On the contrary, one could argue, that if a guy like MJ tried to be more bulky and match up with Lebron sizewise, how effective would he have been with his style of play? He certainly wouldn't have the range of motion that allowed him to do some of the incredibly acrobatic things he was able to do, or have the mid-range jumpshooting game that he had. We have to take things at face value.


Obviously a kid that started watching NBA 5-10 years ago. :lol

judging by the fact that you think Wilt is a top 5 player of all time, you are a faggot living in the 60s who can't accept change.

[Phillip]

So Kobe in the 90s would be as good if not better than MJ?

Kobe at his best is arguably just as skilled overall as Mike. Mentally? Mike is unquestionably superior, which is the reason he will always have the edge over Kobe in MJ vs Kobe debates.

[Phillip]

Lebron is just peaking at the right time for him when most teams are either rebuilding or all the other NBA superstars are at the end of their careers, yet still a 36 year old TD lead team almost beat him anyway. Also not forgetting that all the current newer superstar talents are still way to early in their careers to be competition. Put Lebron and his current team up against any of these winning teams in their primes and he wouldn't have a single ring. Shoot the Heat would never even make it out of the east if they went against early 2000 pistons or Bird in his prime Boston, not even including the Bulls.

Lebron is good but he is not as good as people rate him as.

If you are going to say this about Lebron, you have to say the same about MJ.

[gnsf0946]

Kobe at his best is arguably just as skilled overall as Mike. Mentally? Mike is unquestionably superior, which is the reason he will always have the edge over Kobe in MJ vs Kobe debates.

so seeing what Kobe has done through this era it's not unimaginable that MJ would still be able to average 30 ppg on 50% shooting which you claim would not be sustainable in this era?

[RsxPiimp]

Bucks and Sixers werent that good, similar to some of the bad teams MJ played.

The Knicks were not a bad team at all. Indiana was solid. And the thing is, Lebron isn't done yet. He has a LOT of basketball left to be played.

Now I don't disagree that the East probably had some tougher competition during MJs days, but it's not like he faced any transcendent teams either.

I do agree with what you said earlier though, and it's that, great teams tends to make most teams they face look inferior. And the seeding where a Top team going against the lower seed makes this obvious.


I still think today's league as a whole is better with better talents across the board, does anyone remember the NBA Jam arcade? I laugh at the quality of players that represents most teams in that era.


Mavericks had Derek Harper and Mike Iuzzolino reppin their team, and the Kings had Old Man Tisdale :lol

[ambchang]

I completely agree with you.

But with having to face bigger, faster, stronger players on an nightly basis, makes things a little different.

People keep mistaking what I am saying, thinking I am implying that 80s or 90s players wouldnt be good simply because of increased athleticism, which is not what I've said. I've said a combination of bigger, faster, stronger players, increased defensive strategy, a slower pace, and rule changes that allow zone and more traps/double teams will make it more difficult for players to dominate the way they used to be able to. MJ wouldn't be putting up the outrageous numbers annually like he once was. Magic's fast break wouldn't be as effective. Bird's post game wouldn't be as easy with the extra defensive attention that would be shot at him. They would all still be superstars in this era, but not be able to dominate like they used to.

I am not sure about that. Bird combated Michael Cooper in his days, and Cooper was pretty athletic. Jordan found ways to compete against athletic and nonathletic guys alike, and his toughest cover was Joe Dumars, a guy who really wasn't all that athletic but had great footwork and defensive fundamentals.

If a guy like Nash can run a fast break in the modern era, I am sure a guy like Magic can run it as well.

Take into effect the change in rules that really opens up the perimeter, you can argue that Bird, Magic, and particularly Jordan would feast even more on today's NBA.

[ambchang]

team concepts always beat athleticism, no one has said otherwise.

but Jordan was a 1-on-1 player. his 1-on-1 scoring would not be as effective with facing bigger, stronger, and faster players on a nightly basis, slower pace of game, along with greater defensive strategy that was allowed with the rule chance that allowed zone defense. He wouldn't be averaging 30+ppg on 50% shooting every single season like he was able to in his day.

He wasn't able to win in the 80s, because of a higher level of competition than the 90s, just like he wouldn't win 6 out of 8 in todays league, due to a higher level of competition.

He wasn't able to win in the 80s because he had Orlando Woolridge as his teammate facing against multiple HoFs in other teams.

[spurraider21]

how can you say david robinson wans't a true #1 scoring option when before his injury he never had a season averaging less than 23 ppg, shot a good percentage, and won a scoring title/mvp along the way? he averaged 30 and 5 assists in a season

[Chomag]

Take into effect the change in rules that really opens up the perimeter, you can argue that Bird, Magic, and particularly Jordan would feast even more on today's NBA.

I see your point, MJ would sleep walk into 60 point games with how crippled the defense is by the league rules in todays game. Wasn't he still scoring at a high clip in his 40's when he came out of retirement to play with the wizards for a bit?

[StrengthAndHonor]

how can you say david robinson wans't a true #1 scoring option when before his injury he never had a season averaging less than 23 ppg, shot a good percentage, and won a scoring title/mvp along the way? he averaged 30 and 5 assists in a season
Whoever said this needs to have their internet access revoke. That's hilarious and sad. :lol

[midnightpulp]

so seeing what Kobe has done through this era it's not unimaginable that MJ would still be able to average 30 ppg on 50% shooting which you claim would not be sustainable in this era?

Jordan likely would.

Stretch is correct that individual perimeter defenders are more athletic and better overall today than they were in Jordan's era, but at the same time, perimeter offense is also much more sophisticated. Back then, the only plays coaches seemed to know for their star wing players/guards were ISOs, whether facing up at the top of the key or in the post, as in the case of Jordan in the Triangle.

Today, coaches design their offensive systems to maximize penetration. It's why stretch 4s and shooting bigs are in such high demand in the modern era. Put Jordan on the Spurs (who probably space the floor better than any team in the league) and he would be a points in the paint machine. Probably still not as efficient as Lebron, though, since James is the best penetrator in the history of the league, but Jordan would explode in this era, no doubt. Especially with all the free throws he would likely get.

[AchillesHeel]

I don't disagree that they would probably have a better advantage, but we have no facts to base it on. On the contrary, one could argue, that if a guy like MJ tried to be more bulky and match up with Lebron sizewise, how effective would he have been with his style of play? He certainly wouldn't have the range of motion that allowed him to do some of the incredibly acrobatic things he was able to do, or have the mid-range jumpshooting game that he had. We have to take things at face value.



judging by the fact that you think Wilt is a top 5 player of all time, you are a faggot living in the 60s who can't accept change.

Where did I say that? :lol, I do think Wilt is a top 10 player all-time based on his influence and accolades in this league, no one dominated their era scoring-wise as much as Wilt did, and he went up against Kareem,Unseld,Russell a ton of times, his era was stacked with big men, tbh. He dominated a much younger Kareem in most of the H2H games and he averaged 8.6 assists a game for an entire season at 31, how many Centers have done that?

coming back to what's actually relevant, who has Lebron beaten that's so great? TOSB Duncan with an injured Parker and Manu choking Game 6 away? A young Kevin Durant,RWB and James Harden with one of the worst coaches in the league? An unexperienced Pacers team with shitty coaching decisions last year?

Who has Lebron beaten that's so great? At least MJ defeated Magic(he was still great), Shaq(young Shaq was a fucking beast), Stock & Malone twice. Barkley and Kevin Johnson..

cmon man, MJ had a lot of competition in his era, he won 6 rings in one decade. When was the last time someone did that? He was the true model of consistency.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Jordan likely would.

Stretch is correct that individual perimeter defenders are more athletic and better overall today than they were in Jordan's era, but at the same time, perimeter offense is also much more sophisticated. Back then, the only plays coaches seemed to know for their star wing players/guards were ISOs, whether facing up at the top of the key or in the post, as in the case of Jordan in the Triangle.

Today, coaches design their offensive systems to maximize penetration. It's why stretch 4s and shooting bigs are in such high demand in the modern era. Put Jordan on the Spurs (who probably space the floor better than any team in the league) and he would be a points in the paint machine. Probably still not as efficient as Lebron, though, since James is the best penetrator in the history of the league, but Jordan would explode in this era, no doubt. Especially with all the free throws he would likely get.
Sup Mid, I see you still rocking that Coach Kirby avatar :lol

[midnightpulp]

Sup Mid, I see you still rocking that Coach Kirby avatar :lol

Lol, yeah. Been too lazy to change it.

[StrengthAndHonor]

So Kobe in the 90s would be as good if not better than MJ?
Kobe would be Kobe with the same efficiency, maybe worse (FG%) since the defensive attention to wingmen in the 90's is much more restrictive , but he'd be much more revered, simply because RAW stats are the holy grail of production and intangibles like "playing hard through injury" are often valued in the lore of NBA legends.

[spurraider21]

Whoever said this needs to have their internet access revoke. That's hilarious and sad. :lol


and who was the 2nd best player in the 90s? Olajuwon who never faced Jordan's Bulls? Ewing, who was a major choker? Robinson who was a great all around player but not a true #1 offensive option?

[StrengthAndHonor]

Oh that explains it, Phillip with his usual shitty takes. :lol

[AchillesHeel]

Oh that explains it, Phillip with his usual shitty takes. :lol

Easily the worst poster on ST.

[StrengthAndHonor]

:lol I just can't fathom a guy averaging a good 25 PPG in half a decade (29.8 at one point) not being considered a first option is all I'm saying.

[Phillip]

coming back to what's actually relevant, who has Lebron beaten that's so great? TOSB Duncan with an injured Parker and Manu choking Game 6 away? A young Kevin Durant,RWB and James Harden with one of the worst coaches in the league? An unexperienced Pacers team with shitty coaching decisions last year?

Who has Lebron beaten that's so great? At least MJ defeated Magic(he was still great), Shaq(young Shaq was a fucking beast), Stock & Malone twice. Barkley and Kevin Johnson..


:lmao at you attempting to dismiss Lebrons competition as much as possible. If you are going to complain about TP being hurt, then you could say the same about Magic as I believe he wasn't 100% in that series either. If you wanna talk about Manu choking, you can say the same about Malone. If you want to talk about youth, young KD was pretty beastly too, but not mentally ready, just like young Shaq was beastly, but not mentally ready. Bad coaching? I don't recall the Suns having a particularly monster coach, or quite a few other teams.

[Phillip]

:lol I just can't fathom a guy averaging a good 25 PPG in half a decade (29.8 at one point) not being considered a first option is all I'm saying.

So by that logic, Carmelo Anthony is a legit #1 option for a team with championship aspirations. How about Mark Aguirre, or Alex English, or Tracy McGrady? All huge scorers, but I don't think you want any of them to be the best player on your team.

D-Rob was mainly a scorer through mid-range jumpshooting and transition. He wasn't a player you could consistently dump the ball to in crunch time against elite defenses, and expect to carry your team to victory. He never won crap until Timmy came through and took over the #1 duties. Why? People weren't as scared of him as they were of Timmy.

[StrengthAndHonor]

If you want to talk about youth, young KD was pretty beastly too, but not mentally ready, just like young Shaq was beastly, but not mentally ready.
Nigga, you need to stop posting. You just compared a young Shaq to Durant :lmao

[StrengthAndHonor]

So by that logic, Carmelo Anthony is a legit #1 option for a team with championship aspirations. How about Mark Aguirre, or Alex English, or Tracy McGrady? All huge scorers, but I don't think you want any of them to be the best player on your team.

D-Rob was mainly a scorer through mid-range jumpshooting and transition. He wasn't a player you could consistently dump the ball to in crunch time against elite defenses, and expect to carry your team to victory. He never won crap until Timmy came through and took over the #1 duties. Why? People weren't as scared of him as they were of Timmy.
None of the players you mentioned won an MVP. :lol Robinson did.

Failing to lead a team to championship as #1 guy should not be used to discredit a players role. That's a dated way of thinking of casual and shitty NBA fans.

[Phillip]

Nigga, you need to stop posting. You just compared a young Shaq to Durant :lmao

In what way was I comparing them? The simple fact that they were both young up-and-coming superstars who were not mentally ready for their first finals appearance?

:rolleyes


None of the players you mentioned won an MVP. :lol Robinson did.

Derrick Rose won an MVP too. I don't want him leading a championship team either.


Failing to lead a team to championship as #1 guy should not be used to discredit a players role. That's a dated way of thinking of casual and shitty NBA fans.

They failed to get there because no one was afraid of Robinson. He didn't draw defensive attention the way other elite bigs like Duncan, Olajuwon, and Shaq was able to.

[313]

In what way was I comparing them? The simple fact that they were both young up-and-coming superstars who were not mentally ready for their first finals appearance?

:rolleyes



Derrick Rose won an MVP too. I don't want him leading a championship team either.



They failed to get there because no one was afraid of Robinson. He didn't draw defensive attention the way other elite bigs like Duncan, Olajuwon, and Shaq was able to.

Now you're just being disrespectful. DRob top 3 Centers all time. It's not his fault his team sucked. Who did he have? Vinny Del Negro and Rod Strickland?

[HarlemHeat37]

The people in this thread are judging 90s teams by their single best player, rather than their entire team:lol..

David Robinson was an elite player, but have you seen his supporting casts in the 90s?..

Hakeem was one of the top 10 player of all-time, but outside of the year with Drexler, who the fuck was his sidekick on those 90s teams?:lol..

The Knicks had an equal or worse version of Monta Ellis in Jon Starks as their 2nd best player:lmao..

The Pacers were led by Reggie Miller, a low-end #2 guy in most strong NBA years, tbh..

Dad Killer is the greatest player of all-time, but he never played against a team that was anywhere close to the level of his team and never even played a team that was as well-coached as his team, tbh..

Also, I don't know why morons in this thread keep ignoring the fact that Lebron has had far more responsibility than any "greatest players" other than Duncan and Hakeem in certain years..not only has he had to defend opposing top players for long stretches, he's also had to lead the team in points, rebounds AND assists:lol..

Not to mention that Wade has been just an above average player for most of the past 2 playoff runs, same with Bosh(AND Bosh missed the majority of their 1st title run:lmao)..Lebron's title supporting casts are probably in the bottom 5 all-time for a superstar player, tbh..

[Phillip]

Now you're just being disrespectful. DRob top 3 Centers all time. It's not his fault his team sucked. Who did he have? Vinny Del Negro and Rod Strickland?

:lmao top 3 center all time

Shaq, Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Kareem, Duncan is 5 that are unquestionably superior already.

[Phillip]

The people in this thread are judging 90s teams by their single best player, rather than their entire team:lol..

David Robinson was an elite player, but have you seen his supporting casts in the 90s?..

Hakeem was one of the top 10 player of all-time, but outside of the year with Drexler, who the fuck was his sidekick on those 90s teams?:lol..

The Knicks had an equal or worse version of Monta Ellis in Jon Starks as their 2nd best player:lmao..

The Pacers were led by Reggie Miller, a low-end #2 guy in most strong NBA years, tbh..

Dad Killer is the greatest player of all-time, but he never played against a team that was anywhere close to the level of his team and never even played a team that was as well-coached as his team, tbh..

Also, I don't know why morons in this thread keep ignoring the fact that Lebron has had far more responsibility than any "greatest players" other than Duncan and Hakeem in certain years..not only has he had to defend opposing top players for long stretches, he's also had to lead the team in points, rebounds AND assists:lol..

Not to mention that Wade has been just an above average player for most of the past 2 playoff runs, same with Bosh(AND Bosh missed the majority of their 1st title run:lmao)..Lebron's title supporting casts are probably in the bottom 5 all-time for a superstar player, tbh..

Logic is too simple for some, it seems.

[313]

:lmao top 3 center all time

Shaq, Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Kareem, Duncan is 5 that are unquestionably superior already.

I'd put him over Moses and Timmy is a PF.
DRob didn't have the support shaq had until Timmy but Olajuwon did school him.

[Phillip]

Who did he have? Vinny Del Negro and Rod Strickland?

Sean Elliott? Dale Ellis? Terry Cummings? Avery wasnt great but played his role well and gave quality production, consistently giving them around 11/8.

He didn't have any superstar talent until Timmy, but it's not like his teams were completely devoid of talent like some people want to say. As HH well put it, in general most superstars in the 90s didn't have a ton of talent surrounding them, simply because there was less talent in the 90s overall. For his era, he had plenty of solid talent surrounding him. The problem was that he had no post game. He was a transition scorer and mid-range jumpshooter. Not a dominant low post scorer. You could gameplan for him much easier than other elite centers like Olajuwon or Shaq.

[Phillip]

I'd put him over Moses and Timmy is a PF.
DRob didn't have the support shaq had until Timmy but Olajuwon did school him.

Timmy is a C, and anyone with half a brain knows it.

And :lmao at putting him over Moses. Moses is one of the most underappreciated stars of all time. I would build a team around Moses 10 times out of 10 before building a team around Robinson.

[Rogue]

Tim has been a C since 07 something. The old legs ain't allowing him to play PF anymore so that's the reason why you don't see no more such traditional C's like Rasho playing alongside him. You have to be mobile as a SF to play with Duncan these days I think, no matter if you're fat or thin, tall or short.

[Stalin]

team concepts always beat athleticism, no one has said otherwise.

but Jordan was a 1-on-1 player. his 1-on-1 scoring would not be as effective with facing bigger, stronger, and faster players on a nightly basis, slower pace of game, along with greater defensive strategy that was allowed with the rule chance that allowed zone defense. He wouldn't be averaging 30+ppg on 50% shooting every single season like he was able to in his day.

He wasn't able to win in the 80s, because of a higher level of competition than the 90s, just like he wouldn't win 6 out of 8 in todays league, due to a higher level of competition.


So much fail in this post, so Jordan, whom the vast majority of basketball watching public consider the GOAT, is going to have a harder time against softer defenses that don't even have true center, and with rules favouring perimeter players, where touch fouls are the norm? Brah, you not making any fucking sense. I know you didn't watch any 90's ball, and just want to justify your continued deep throating of Nazi cock.

[Stalin]

Kobe at his best is arguably just as skilled overall as Mike. Mentally? Mike is unquestionably superior, which is the reason he will always have the edge over Kobe in MJ vs Kobe debates.



you lost all credibility with that retarded statement, son, i've been away to long I guess, and have forgotten how effortlessly mavfan is able to reach such heights of stupidity

[Stalin]

Oh that explains it, Phillip with his usual shitty takes. :lol


Co sign

[Stalin]

Easily the worst poster on ST.


in the top 5 worst, at the very least, IMO TBH

[rayjayjohnson]

what a tough era...the 2nd best player is a mentally fragile beta-chucker, who gets 10+ free throws every game, the best big man doesn't even know how to post up.

Lebron's competition in the 2012 playoffs: NY Knicks :lol, a younger Indiana that they struggled against without Bosh, needing Wade to go balls deep, WCF a squad full of TOSBs + Rondo raping that Heat ass until Lebron had one game, where his jumper fell, they won 4 games in a row in the Finals against a young, inexperienced OKC team.

2013 playoffs: Milwaukee Bucks :lol, Bulls without their 3 best players, WCF Indy took them to 7 games, and they would have won in 6 if their stupid coach doesn't take Hibbert out to give Lebron an open lane for a layup :lol, Finals Lebron needed Manu and Kawhi to miss a FT, Bosh had to rebound his missed 3pter two times and Jesus had to make a miracle 3 :lol

Yeah, this era has been so tough, especially when the Eastern Conference is the shittiest it has been in the last decade, definitely shitter than in the late 80s/90s with the bad boy Pistons, Celtics, Pacers, Zo on the Heat, Ewing on the Knicks and Shaq and Penny in Orlando...MJ faced top 50 all-time players in the playoffs year in year out.

:lol still burning after 6

[spurraider21]

i still can't believe he dismissed David Robinson as a legit #1 scoring option :lol

so basically if you haven't led a team to a championship, you aren't a #1 scoring option...

[AchillesHeel]

:lol still burning after 6

Get out of the first round, then we'll talk.

[rayjayjohnson]

Get out of the first round, then we'll talk.

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[rayjayjohnson]

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[AchillesHeel]

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[ambchang]

Sean Elliott? Dale Ellis? Terry Cummings? Avery wasnt great but played his role well and gave quality production, consistently giving them around 11/8.

He didn't have any superstar talent until Timmy, but it's not like his teams were completely devoid of talent like some people want to say. As HH well put it, in general most superstars in the 90s didn't have a ton of talent surrounding them, simply because there was less talent in the 90s overall. For his era, he had plenty of solid talent surrounding him. The problem was that he had no post game. He was a transition scorer and mid-range jumpshooter. Not a dominant low post scorer. You could gameplan for him much easier than other elite centers like Olajuwon or Shaq.

The issue with Robinson's cast is that there was very little outside threat. To spell it out even more, he has a backcourt that couldn't shoot.

When a team defends the Spurs in the 90s, they just leave Avery Johnson wide open to double Robinson. Not only does this hurt Robinson's production, it allows you to negate AJ's quickness by cutting off his drives. Now then, the other guy is Vinny Del Negro, who just isn't all that great of a three point shooter. You stick your guy on a way over the hill Dale Ellis or Chuck Person, and you basically can shut down the Spurs, because on offense, you are essentially playing 5 on 4 defense in halfcourt. Add in Rodman, who you just don't have to defend, the opposition can triple Robinson every possession with no consequences, or they can double Robinson and have a roamer take out the passing lanes.

On the other hand, people can post up Avery Johnson every possession, or do whatever they want on Del Negro because they guy just couldn't defend.

The year Robinson had Cummings and Strickland, the Spurs went pretty far in the playoffs, and guess what, Robinson matched his regular season game production.

And you are making it sound like Robinson played with those three guys at the same time. Cummings had one good year with the Spurs (89-90), Elliott peaked around 94 to 96, Dale Ellis had two years with the Spurs (92 and 93).

The best, and by far the best player Robinson played with during his prime was a 95/96 Elliott. And that is not even close to a past his prime Drexler, past his prime Robinson, Pippen, Kobe, over the hill Big O, Penny Hardaway, James Worthy, Magic Johnson, Kevin Mchale level.

As for the #1 scoring option, if you surround Robinson with Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler (prime versions) with some decent shooters, the Spurs will likely be a championship team with Robinson as a #1 scoring option.

[Killakobe81]

The issue with Robinson's cast is that there was very little outside threat. To spell it out even more, he has a backcourt that couldn't shoot.

When a team defends the Spurs in the 90s, they just leave Avery Johnson wide open to double Robinson. Not only does this hurt Robinson's production, it allows you to negate AJ's quickness by cutting off his drives. Now then, the other guy is Vinny Del Negro, who just isn't all that great of a three point shooter. You stick your guy on a way over the hill Dale Ellis or Chuck Person, and you basically can shut down the Spurs, because on offense, you are essentially playing 5 on 4 defense in halfcourt. Add in Rodman, who you just don't have to defend, the opposition can triple Robinson every possession with no consequences, or they can double Robinson and have a roamer take out the passing lanes.

On the other hand, people can post up Avery Johnson every possession, or do whatever they want on Del Negro because they guy just couldn't defend.

The year Robinson had Cummings and Strickland, the Spurs went pretty far in the playoffs, and guess what, Robinson matched his regular season game production.

And you are making it sound like Robinson played with those three guys at the same time. Cummings had one good year with the Spurs (89-90), Elliott peaked around 94 to 96, Dale Ellis had two years with the Spurs (92 and 93).

The best, and by far the best player Robinson played with during his prime was a 95/96 Elliott. And that is not even close to a past his prime Drexler, past his prime Robinson, Pippen, Kobe, over the hill Big O, Penny Hardaway, James Worthy, Magic Johnson, Kevin Mchale level.

As for the #1 scoring option, if you surround Robinson with Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler (prime versions) with some decent shooters, the Spurs will likely be a championship team with Robinson as a #1 scoring option.

Some of that still is a failing of David's Amb. Shaq just said last night he didn't have many more post moves than Dwight but he still got 28 and 15 when it mattered. David had plenty of the athletic gifts Howard has is a far better player but did not "impose his will" enough for my liking. agree 100% that his supporting cast was not top notch, but HE could of done better or more on his side. Again, great player. Played both ends of the court great team-mate absolutely helped Duncan's transition to the NBA ...probably more than Mj did Pippen and Jordan gets so much credit for "making" Pippen. He just did not burn as fierce as I would of liked . They still don't ring but I think they fare better if David had a different mind-set. He really was talented and gifted should of imposed his will more.

[Calispursfan11]

Blindly measuring a player's worth by rings is an antiquated method of ranking legacies, tbh..

The 2 other "super friends" haven't been anything near superstars in most of Miami's 2 titles runs, for instance:lol..

Lol second post in this thread is you hopping on Lebron's knob. You are becoming too predictable my little friend.

[313]

The issue with Robinson's cast is that there was very little outside threat. To spell it out even more, he has a backcourt that couldn't shoot.

When a team defends the Spurs in the 90s, they just leave Avery Johnson wide open to double Robinson. Not only does this hurt Robinson's production, it allows you to negate AJ's quickness by cutting off his drives. Now then, the other guy is Vinny Del Negro, who just isn't all that great of a three point shooter. You stick your guy on a way over the hill Dale Ellis or Chuck Person, and you basically can shut down the Spurs, because on offense, you are essentially playing 5 on 4 defense in halfcourt. Add in Rodman, who you just don't have to defend, the opposition can triple Robinson every possession with no consequences, or they can double Robinson and have a roamer take out the passing lanes.

On the other hand, people can post up Avery Johnson every possession, or do whatever they want on Del Negro because they guy just couldn't defend.

The year Robinson had Cummings and Strickland, the Spurs went pretty far in the playoffs, and guess what, Robinson matched his regular season game production.

And you are making it sound like Robinson played with those three guys at the same time. Cummings had one good year with the Spurs (89-90), Elliott peaked around 94 to 96, Dale Ellis had two years with the Spurs (92 and 93).

The best, and by far the best player Robinson played with during his prime was a 95/96 Elliott. And that is not even close to a past his prime Drexler, past his prime Robinson, Pippen, Kobe, over the hill Big O, Penny Hardaway, James Worthy, Magic Johnson, Kevin Mchale level.

As for the #1 scoring option, if you surround Robinson with Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler (prime versions) with some decent shooters, the Spurs will likely be a championship team with Robinson as a #1 scoring option.
There's really no point and trying to convince him, he's an idiot.

[ambchang]

Some of that still is a failing of David's Amb. Shaq just said last night he didn't have many more post moves than Dwight but he still got 28 and 15 when it mattered. David had plenty of the athletic gifts Howard has is a far better player but did not "impose his will" enough for my liking. agree 100% that his supporting cast was not top notch, but HE could of done better or more on his side. Again, great player. Played both ends of the court great team-mate absolutely helped Duncan's transition to the NBA ...probably more than Mj did Pippen and Jordan gets so much credit for "making" Pippen. He just did not burn as fierce as I would of liked . They still don't ring but I think they fare better if David had a different mind-set. He really was talented and gifted should of imposed his will more.

I agree he probably could have been more aggressive and actually developed a few reliable post moves, but the guy was just a natural SF/PF, and he was forced into a C role. In all honesty, Robinson's game was pretty much the predecessor of Garnett's game, only Robinson was better in rim protection and scoring, while Garnett was a better passer, with the two being about equal in rebounding and man-to-man defense. The games are very similar though, rely on quickness, more effective as a front facing guy (Robinson drives more, Garnett shoots more and has better range).

That said, when a team can load up on you and take your game away, even a Shaq shot in the 40% and scored 21.5ppg vs. the Spurs in one series when the entire Spurs team game up on him, but guess what? Nobody cares because Kobe scored like 30+ppg in that series and the Lakers won (swept the Spurs, I think). If the Spurs won, people will say how Shaq under performed.

Same with Dirk, he didn't choke in 07, he was taken down by the entire GSW team. He didn't redeem himself in 11, he had the right guys around him.

My thing is, when you get to this level of dominance (top 50, or even top 30 of all time), you can't just not care, you HAVE to have some level of drive and will to win.

There are only a few guys who I saw that you can't do anything to stop them:
Jordan during the 90s (other than the Seattle series)
Hakeem during the mid 90s (other than the other Seattle series)
Kareem (until he got old)
Bird (until his back gave out)
Shaq (other than the mentioned Spurs series)
Duncan in 03

These are players who are unbelievably dominant. Even Lebron was shut down in 11, and didn't have that great of a series a few other time.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i dunno what else drob could do in the playoffs when he was the main guy on offense

aggressive? if his not agressive then what has he been doing outthrough the playoffs...

the problem wasnt him, was more of a team cast thing....

[ambchang]

Let's put it this way, if you put Robinson in place of pedophile's place in Utah, the team would have rung at least once.

Robinson, Stockton, Hornacek/Jeff Malone, Eaton/Ostertag, with Sloan as the coach. Stockton and Robinson can run the pick and roll all day, with Robinson kickouts to the SG, while having a big guy next to him defending the paint/doing the dirty work.

I can see Robinson forcing his way in the paint and keep driving even though he get no calls from all the hacks. That's the one thing I never got, is why Utah can hack the hell out of Robinson and not get called for fouls. I just don't get that.

[Killakobe81]

i dunno what else drob could do in the playoffs when he was the main guy on offense

aggressive? if his not agressive then what has he been doing outthrough the playoffs...

the problem wasnt him, was more of a team cast thing....

I guess based on his level of athleticism and regular season dominance I expected more. For example KG was Amb's comparison and I can see some of that with David's game. Amb's points are on the nose about similar face up games. Again I just think his demeanor (no not saying he is soft) allowed him to be limited more effectively, he never forced shots or teh issue which is great in a team-mate not even bad to have in a leader but it is part of why he does not get the full credit he deserves. He was also a precursor to Lebron as a uber efficient player. not a huge stat guy but he used to DOMINATE the efficiency numbers in the regular season. I think most true NBA fans wanted to see that in the playoffs.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I guess based on his level of athleticism and regular season dominance I expected more. For example KG was Amb's comparison and I can see some of that with David's game. Amb's points are on the nose about similar face up games. Again I just think his demeanor (no not saying he is soft) allowed him to be limited more effectively, he never forced shots or teh issue which is great in a team-mate not even bad to have in a leader but it is part of why he does not get the full credit he deserves. He was also a precursor to Lebron as a uber efficient player. not a huge stat guy but he used to DOMINATE the efficiency numbers in the regular season. I think most true NBA fans wanted to see that in the playoffs.

and what did acting hard intense got KG?

[Killakobe81]

and what did acting hard intense got KG?

Never said I wanted David to "act" ...does Tim act all hard intense? Did Hakeem? did Kareem? Moses?

[FYM]

Tim has been a C since 07 something. The old legs ain't allowing him to play PF anymore so that's the reason why you don't see no more such traditional C's like Rasho playing alongside him. You have to be mobile as a SF to play with Duncan these days I think, no matter if you're fat or thin, tall or short.

Except Duncan, unless I smoked some weird weed, is playing PF since he has been paired with Splitter so your point is totally moot knowing that he had a monster year last year. It has been years that his bread and butter is more JS than scoring at the rim.

you should stick to your virgnity and fake whinny blond

[313]

Never said I wanted David to "act" ...does Tim act all hard intense? Did Hakeem? did Kareem? Moses?

They had better players around them, Rob didn't. That's it. His demeanor didn't change anything.

[ambchang]

Never said I wanted David to "act" ...does Tim act all hard intense? Did Hakeem? did Kareem? Moses?

Difference is, those guys won because they had better teammates. Comparing Robinson to Garnett is a lot more appropriate because neither won during their absolute primes.

And in some sense it's a reflection on the perception of an average fan, people do not spend hours watching and rewatching games, and do the necessary analysis to breakdown a player's game. We generally rely on sportscasters for that. Sadly, most sportscasters are ex-players who, surprisingly, know very little about a game, and thus has to spew stereo types to keep their jobs. To make matters worse, since they are ex-players, people naturally assumes what they said to be true, and lap it up.

Add to that the journalist angle, which essentially is trying to sell stories, so they create these side story lines to sell paper and get viewership. Most of which is poorly researched because of these guys are writers who happen to like basketball. There are very few analysts like Zach Lowe who actually understands the game to such a degree AND can write well enough so that they can consistently write meaningful articles.

Which brings us to the point, ex-players are like everyone, they get drawn by the most visible thing, and when you are 6'11" and scream and howl at a 6'3" European point guard after a block, people notice. Now when you are a 7'1" guy out there guarding shaq one one one with a hip-pointer and a bad back, people don't notice. It's a general practice of jumping to conclusions without all the information because everybody is busy, and basketball arguments are unimportant.

Did Robinson get roasted by Hakeem in that series? Sure he did. But look at it this way, Hakeem was on fire that year, he put up 35ppg with Robinson single coverage, and then put in 33ppg with Shaq and Grant doubling him throughout the series due to a PG who couldn't shoot, a SG who wouldn't shoot, and a PF who doesn't do anything. On defense, Robinson was routinely double and tripled throughout the entire series, and Rodman was drifting under the basket looking for rebounds. Rodman didn't guard Horry, Rodman didn't double team Hakeem, he was just looking for rebounds, and Bob Hill didn't hold him accountable. Not to mention that Rudy T actually had a well-established system and pecking order for Hakeem, Hill doesn't have any system or strategy. His approach was throw the ball to Robinson and see what works.

That approach worked for them in the regular season because Robinson was just that good, didn't work in the playoffs because teams actually spend days preparing for you.

[313]

Timmy is a C, and anyone with half a brain knows it.

And :lmao at putting him over Moses. Moses is one of the most underappreciated stars of all time. I would build a team around Moses 10 times out of 10 before building a team around Robinson.


Tim has been a C since 07 something. The old legs ain't allowing him to play PF anymore so that's the reason why you don't see no more such traditional C's like Rasho playing alongside him. You have to be mobile as a SF to play with Duncan these days I think, no matter if you're fat or thin, tall or short.


Except Duncan, unless I smoked some weird weed, is playing PF since he has been paired with Splitter so your point is totally moot knowing that he had a monster year last year. It has been years that his bread and butter is more JS than scoring at the rim.

you should stick to your virgnity and fake whinny blond

[Killakobe81]

Difference is, those guys won because they had better teammates. Comparing Robinson to Garnett is a lot more appropriate because neither won during their absolute primes.

And in some sense it's a reflection on the perception of an average fan, people do not spend hours watching and rewatching games, and do the necessary analysis to breakdown a player's game. We generally rely on sportscasters for that. Sadly, most sportscasters are ex-players who, surprisingly, know very little about a game, and thus has to spew stereo types to keep their jobs. To make matters worse, since they are ex-players, people naturally assumes what they said to be true, and lap it up.

Add to that the journalist angle, which essentially is trying to sell stories, so they create these side story lines to sell paper and get viewership. Most of which is poorly researched because of these guys are writers who happen to like basketball. There are very few analysts like Zach Lowe who actually understands the game to such a degree AND can write well enough so that they can consistently write meaningful articles.

Which brings us to the point, ex-players are like everyone, they get drawn by the most visible thing, and when you are 6'11" and scream and howl at a 6'3" European point guard after a block, people notice. Now when you are a 7'1" guy out there guarding shaq one one one with a hip-pointer and a bad back, people don't notice. It's a general practice of jumping to conclusions without all the information because everybody is busy, and basketball arguments are unimportant.

Did Robinson get roasted by Hakeem in that series? Sure he did. But look at it this way, Hakeem was on fire that year, he put up 35ppg with Robinson single coverage, and then put in 33ppg with Shaq and Grant doubling him throughout the series due to a PG who couldn't shoot, a SG who wouldn't shoot, and a PF who doesn't do anything. On defense, Robinson was routinely double and tripled throughout the entire series, and Rodman was drifting under the basket looking for rebounds. Rodman didn't guard Horry, Rodman didn't double team Hakeem, he was just looking for rebounds, and Bob Hill didn't hold him accountable. Not to mention that Rudy T actually had a well-established system and pecking order for Hakeem, Hill doesn't have any system or strategy. His approach was throw the ball to Robinson and see what works.

That approach worked for them in the regular season because Robinson was just that good, didn't work in the playoffs because teams actually spend days preparing for you.

Good reply. But I do watch and re-watch games. Granted I see less of David compared to the guys i mentioned. My point was I never said DR had to act fact tough to please me like the average NBA fan. No where dis I say that David should of won a title with a good but flawed team. I am just saying I would of liked to see him go down with more "fight". I am not saying he did not have good playoff performances ... even in losses. I just never got the feeling that it was ever do or die with him. Duncan is a classy mostly quiet leader. But you could just see and feel the anguish of "6" like when he slapped the court after he missed that bunny late in the series. I know that stats are meant to eliminate bias ...but when you watch David play it just doesnt seem to matter to him the way it did to Tim or Manu. I know it's sounds cliche but if Tim had manu's heart and spirit no matter what his team's short-comings were, I think they do better. do they win a title? doubtful...but they go down with more of a "fight".
I know many of you hate those competitive spirit narratives they attach to Kobe and others but if you look on your own team you can see it plain as day in the play of Duncan and Manu. You can hear it in Pop's voice. David lacked some of THAT. David deserves praise as a great player who is underrated largely for being dominated by the best all-around center since Hakeem, I get that. But you do him such a disservice but by attributing his flaws and failures more to a shaky backcourt or iffy head-coach ...then laying it on the league MVP. When the Lakers lost in 2008 did you blame Kobe or Pau? But what kills me the most AMB you go out of your way to make qualifiers and justifications for David (though you did point out some flaws) yet you murder Kobe for his own playoff failings and offer no such excuses. You cannot have it BOTH ways. Kobe is the star and gets the lion's share of the blame for Laker failures he was a part of ..just as he gets a bunch of credit for their success. Did he win alone? no. did he lose alone? no. But that is how this works. David gets the same. Same for Shaq same for Ewing.

the NBA is a results based business. any moron can see David did not have Kobe,MJ or Lebron level support. anyway never meant to attack the man's character. Good dude, does so much in the community, his school/academy is amazing.Served our country and did not try to big time his commitment. Though duncan is your greatest player Robinson to me is the iconic Spurs player. he embodies the city and the franchise. and like I said earlier one of the greatest athletes to ever play center and probably top 5 or 6 I have ever seen play in person.

[ambchang]

Good reply. But I do watch and re-watch games. Granted I see less of David compared to the guys i mentioned. My point was I never said DR had to act fact tough to please me like the average NBA fan. No where dis I say that David should of won a title with a good but flawed team. I am just saying I would of liked to see him go down with more "fight". I am not saying he did not have good playoff performances ... even in losses. I just never got the feeling that it was ever do or die with him. Duncan is a classy mostly quiet leader. But you could just see and feel the anguish of "6" like when he slapped the court after he missed that bunny late in the series. I know that stats are meant to eliminate bias ...but when you watch David play it just doesnt seem to matter to him the way it did to Tim or Manu. I know it's sounds cliche but if Tim had manu's heart and spirit no matter what his team's short-comings were, I think they do better. do they win a title? doubtful...but they go down with more of a "fight".
I know many of you hate those competitive spirit narratives they attach to Kobe and others but if you look on your own team you can see it plain as day in the play of Duncan and Manu. You can hear it in Pop's voice. David lacked some of THAT. David deserves praise as a great player who is underrated largely for being dominated by the best all-around center since Hakeem, I get that. But you do him such a disservice but by attributing his flaws and failures more to a shaky backcourt or iffy head-coach ...then laying it on the league MVP. When the Lakers lost in 2008 did you blame Kobe or Pau? But what kills me the most AMB you go out of your way to make qualifiers and justifications for David (though you did point out some flaws) yet you murder Kobe for his own playoff failings and offer no such excuses. You cannot have it BOTH ways. Kobe is the star and gets the lion's share of the blame for Laker failures he was a part of ..just as he gets a bunch of credit for their success. Did he win alone? no. did he lose alone? no. But that is how this works. David gets the same. Same for Shaq same for Ewing.

the NBA is a results based business. any moron can see David did not have Kobe,MJ or Lebron level support. anyway never meant to attack the man's character. Good dude, does so much in the community, his school/academy is amazing.Served our country and did not try to big time his commitment. Though duncan is your greatest player Robinson to me is the iconic Spurs player. he embodies the city and the franchise. and like I said earlier one of the greatest athletes to ever play center and probably top 5 or 6 I have ever seen play in person.

Whether Robinson displayed that emotion on the court to me is unimportant, he seemed to me like the guy who treats the game in perspective, knowing that losing is not the end of the world, but that does not mean that he doesn't give it all on the court. When a person is willing to guard Shaq one on one with a bad back, you know he is putting it all out there. He plays hard, and I do not one single instance where I felt "I wish David would have played harder". Just looking at his reaction in 99 and 03, you know the guy was competitive, seeing a 37 year old jumping up and down cheering for his teammates like a little kid tells you he has a passion for the game, he just doesn't display it the way people expect him to display it.

With regards to your Kobe comment, I actually think I am being consistent. People underrate Robinson, I put it in perspective by pointing out all the things that people held him accountable for but shouldn't. People overrate Kobe, and I put it in perspective by pointing out all the things that people didn't held him accountable for but should.

As for 2008, they lost as a team, but if Kobe is as great as everybody said he is, why would he get beaten by Paul Pierce throughout the entire series when PP is barely a top 30 player of all time who is on the downside of his career?

Finally, I agree Robinson is the face of the franchise, and more for what he did off the court for the community rather than what he did on the court.

[Killakobe81]

Whether Robinson displayed that emotion on the court to me is unimportant, he seemed to me like the guy who treats the game in perspective, knowing that losing is not the end of the world, but that does not mean that he doesn't give it all on the court. When a person is willing to guard Shaq one on one with a bad back, you know he is putting it all out there. He plays hard, and I do not one single instance where I felt "I wish David would have played harder". Just looking at his reaction in 99 and 03, you know the guy was competitive, seeing a 37 year old jumping up and down cheering for his teammates like a little kid tells you he has a passion for the game, he just doesn't display it the way people expect him to display it.

With regards to your Kobe comment, I actually think I am being consistent. People underrate Robinson, I put it in perspective by pointing out all the things that people held him accountable for but shouldn't. People overrate Kobe, and I put it in perspective by pointing out all the things that people didn't held him accountable for but should.

As for 2008, they lost as a team, but if Kobe is as great as everybody said he is, why would he get beaten by Paul Pierce throughout the entire series when PP is barely a top 30 player of all time who is on the downside of his career?

Finally, I agree Robinson is the face of the franchise, and more for what he did off the court for the community rather than what he did on the court.

again not saying it has to be emotion ...duncan is not overly emotional. And although I did mention Kobe won't do that dance with you until we have our final debates on Kobe/duncan. But he did get outplayed by Pierce. but I wont use the tony Allen, Posey and ray Allen also defended him excuse either. he lost, period.

[ambchang]

again not saying it has to be emotion ...duncan is not overly emotional. And although I did mention Kobe won't do that dance with you until we have our final debates on Kobe/duncan. But he did get outplayed by Pierce. but I wont use the tony Allen, Posey and ray Allen also defended him excuse either. he lost, period.

But you mentioned an example of Duncan displaying emotion earlier on. Seriously, if Robinson displayed more of a bravado, he'd be viewed in a better light. There are some who considers Robinson and Ewing equals, because Ewing plays in a bigger market and he put on that warrior look. I am convinced of that.

As for Kobe, that's my point, he got shut down by role players, he was stopped by team defense. The difference is he had players to pass to by failed to utilize it. It's also one reason I won't rank Lebron higher than Sha or Duncan at the moment. He can take over games better than either could, but he doesn't seem to know exactly when to do it. For example, he could have taken over the games vs the spurs a lot earlier in the series, and the spurs would be done in 5, 6 games max. But he failed to do so until the end of the series. It's almost like he had the opposite problem of Kobe, only not to as much of a degree.

[Phillip]

The issue with Robinson's cast is that there was very little outside threat.

From 93-96 (3 seasons), they were 7th, 7th, and 4th in the league in 3pt shooting %. It wasn't as bad as you suggest.


To spell it out even more, he has a backcourt that couldn't shoot.

Avery couldn't shoot, but Del Negro could. And he had other players over the years that could shoot the 3 quite well in Elliott, Ellis, and Person.


When a team defends the Spurs in the 90s, they just leave Avery Johnson wide open to double Robinson. Not only does this hurt Robinson's production, it allows you to negate AJ's quickness by cutting off his drives.


Now then, the other guy is Vinny Del Negro, who just isn't all that great of a three point shooter.

Really? He shot 35%, 40%, and 38% from 3 for three of the Spurs most successful seasons during Robinson's time as the leader. Also shot 45% and 59% from 3 for two playoff runs. I'd say he was pretty effective.


You stick your guy on a way over the hill Dale Ellis or Chuck Person, and you basically can shut down the Spurs, because on offense, you are essentially playing 5 on 4 defense in halfcourt. Add in Rodman, who you just don't have to defend, the opposition can triple Robinson every possession with no consequences, or they can double Robinson and have a roamer take out the passing lanes.

So no championship team has basically had to play "5 on 4" halfcourt, due to lack of offensive skills of a player? Miami did it last year with Chris Anderson. Dallas did it with both Shawn Marion and Tyson Chandler not being particularly effective halfcourt scorers. Chicago won 3 straight with Rodman as their third best player. San Antonio won one with Oberto at center. It's been done plenty of times.


On the other hand, people can post up Avery Johnson every possession, or do whatever they want on Del Negro because they guy just couldn't defend.

Again, teams have't won with lackluster defenders in their main rotation?


The year Robinson had Cummings and Strickland, the Spurs went pretty far in the playoffs, and guess what, Robinson matched his regular season game production.

And you are making it sound like Robinson played with those three guys at the same time. Cummings had one good year with the Spurs (89-90), Elliott peaked around 94 to 96, Dale Ellis had two years with the Spurs (92 and 93).

Never once did I say that, nor say anything that could make it sound like that. Someone suggested that Robinson had little to no talent surrounding him. I suggested otherwise, by simply stating 3 random players who were all solid talents that he had alongside him. I think you are a bit too sensitive when it comes to Robinson.


The best, and by far the best player Robinson played with during his prime was a 95/96 Elliott. And that is not even close to a past his prime Drexler, past his prime Robinson, Pippen, Kobe, over the hill Big O, Penny Hardaway, James Worthy, Magic Johnson, Kevin Mchale level.

I won't disagree with this, but again, superstar talent isn't everything. Joe Dumars was no superstar, yet Zeke won back to back with him as his #2 guy. Detroit won in 04 with no superstar talent. Dallas won a couple years ago with Dirk and a bunch of role players.

You make all these excuses for Robinson, but there have been plenty of other teams over the years that have been able to accomplish what he wasn't able to, despite having comparable situations.


As for the #1 scoring option, if you surround Robinson with Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler (prime versions) with some decent shooters, the Spurs will likely be a championship team with Robinson as a #1 scoring option.

Maybe, but we will never know. Either way, he had some solid teams that won well over 50 games multiple times, and he was not able to get the job done. Could his team have been better? Sure. Could have have been better himself though? Absolutely. And that's the problem with him. You never really got a run out of him where you could say he truly did everything in his power, and simply was not able to get enough out of his team. His level of play would frequently drop, despite having generally well rounded talent surrounding him. Most players efficiency numbers will drop a bit in the post season, since they are playing better competition on a nightly basis. But his dropped to unacceptable levels in nearly every playoff run. Why? Because Robinson had some noticeable offensive weaknesses, and didn't frequently show the ability to impose his will on a game and take over, the way other superstars show an ability to do so.

That is my only real issue with Robinson, as he was great in all other areas. But just didn't seem to have a killer instinct to his game. If he did, then we may be talking about him being the greatest center ever, as there is no questioning he had a great level of ability and natural talents.

Also I notice you have many times compared him to Dirk, in how Dirk needed a "perfect supporting cast", and that if Robinson had the same, he would ring. Maybe true, but lets not act like the 11 Mavs had no weaknesses. 1) they weren't incredibly talented altogether. Outside of Dirk, no one on that team was really standout talent or athlete. 2) they didn't have a dominant penetrator nor a dominant post player. basically, they didn't have any consistent means of efficient scoring. most teams have at least one or the other (usually both), but they were strong in neither area. 3) Marion and Chandler were not strong half court threats. Marion was able to make some occasional plays with his turnaround baby hook, but his lack of shooting was frequently a problem on the team.

Despite these weaknesses, Dirk found ways to consistently put the team on his back offensively and make the game easier for everyone, even when waves of double and triple teams were being sent at him. That was something we didn't frequently see out of David.

[ambchang]

From 93-96 (3 seasons), they were 7th, 7th, and 4th in the league in 3pt shooting %. It wasn't as bad as you suggest.

Then you'd also know that the Spurs was #16 in 3PM in 93-94, #15 in 94-95, and #12 in 95-96. First, doesn't do much good if you don't shoot a whole lot of them. Second, it speaks to the Spurs being an opportunistic 3pt shooting team, shooting and making them while wide opened. In the playoffs, once teams learned of their gimmick, they rotate and leave the non-shooters opened (like Avery Johnson and Dennis Rodman), and the Spurs are toast.

This is further reinforced by the shooting percentages in the playoffs. In 93-94, instead of shooting their 7th in the league 34.9% from 3, the Spurs shot 30.8%. In the series against Houston in 95, 32% instead of 37.5%. The only exception is the Jazz series in 96, where the Jazz doubled Robinson off of Avery Johnson throughout, with AJ shooting 38% for the series on 65 shots (that's 4th highest for the Spurs, one less than the 2nd best Spurs player Elliott). You can also see how the Jazz left Del Negro and Chuck Person wide opened throughout, leaving Del Negro opened to shoot 71 shots in the series.


Avery couldn't shoot, but Del Negro could. And he had other players over the years that could shoot the 3 quite well in Elliott, Ellis, and Person.

He's a point guard, if you sag off a point guard, you cut off the passing lanes AND you can double off of him. Not to mention Bob Hill never had any sort of a counter to this simple approach. The man simply cannot coach and had no system for the Spurs. Oh no, the opposition is sagging off AJ and Rodman to double/triple Robinson, let's keep feeding Robinson the ball anyways.



Really? He shot 35%, 40%, and 38% from 3 for three of the Spurs most successful seasons during Robinson's time as the leader. Also shot 45% and 59% from 3 for two playoff runs. I'd say he was pretty effective.

Does do any good if he does shoot too many of them in the series the Spurs lost. He shot a great % in the Jazz series (9-14) because, well, the Jazz kept sagging off of him. In fact, only 14 of his 71 shots were three pointers. Doesn't help if he doesn't shoot. Compare that to the Jazz backcourt. 16, 15, 20 and 12. That's 28%, 29%, 43% and 26% of their FGA. As a group, the Jazz shot 52% from three. The Spurs? 40%.

Same in 95 vs. Houston. Wow, he shot 40%, but that's 4-10, or about 1/6 of his attempts were threes. Compare this to the Houston counterparts, the Houston three point shooters shot 28, 40, 18, 18 and 16 three pointers in the series. That's 29%, 62%, 33%, 46%, 55% of their respective FGA. As a group, the Spurs shot 32% vs. 35% of the Rockets, but the thing that really stood out was that 26% of the FGA for the Rockets were three points vs. 15% for the Spurs. The Rockets had a system to open up the lane, the Spurs don't.


So no championship team has basically had to play "5 on 4" halfcourt, due to lack of offensive skills of a player? Miami did it last year with Chris Anderson. Dallas did it with both Shawn Marion and Tyson Chandler not being particularly effective halfcourt scorers. Chicago won 3 straight with Rodman as their third best player. San Antonio won one with Oberto at center. It's been done plenty of times.

Miami had Bosh and Wade. Spurs had Elliott and ?. Dallas had one of the best PG of all time, Spurs had Avery Johnson. Chicago had Scottie and Kukoc, with the best 3 pt shooter in NBA history on the wings, Spurs had Parker and Ginobili. You double Robinson off of AJ, and leave your man with any of the other Spurs, the Spurs are stopped. You double off of Birdman to double Lebron and single Wade or Bosh, Wade or Bosh will score. You double Dirk off Chandler, Kidd will create. You double Jordan off Rodman, Pippen will find someone. You double Duncan off Oberto, Parker or Ginobili will destroy you.


Again, teams have't won with lackluster defenders in their main rotation?

Of course they have, just that I can't think of an entire lackluster backcourt.


Never once did I say that, nor say anything that could make it sound like that. Someone suggested that Robinson had little to no talent surrounding him. I suggested otherwise, by simply stating 3 random players who were all solid talents that he had alongside him. I think you are a bit too sensitive when it comes to Robinson.



I won't disagree with this, but again, superstar talent isn't everything. Joe Dumars was no superstar, yet Zeke won back to back with him as his #2 guy. Detroit won in 04 with no superstar talent. Dallas won a couple years ago with Dirk and a bunch of role players.

Jordan, the GOAT, said Dumars was his toughest cover. Then of course, there's a sane Rodman, Bill Laimbeer, and a host of defensive monsters on the Pistons. the 04 Pistons had 4 all star level players, including DPoY. Dirk had one of the greatest point guard next to him, and like I said earlier, Dirk and Robinson are similar in the sense that they are very unique talents, you have to build a unique team around them, and they can ring.


You make all these excuses for Robinson, but there have been plenty of other teams over the years that have been able to accomplish what he wasn't able to, despite having comparable situations.

I can't find one single championship team who's 2nd best player is of the caliber of Sean Elliott, and the 3rd best player is of the caliber of Avery Johnson, and their head coach is of the caliber of Bob Hill. Elliott, as much as I love the player (my 2nd favourite Spur of all time, ahead of Duncan), can be a fantastic perimeter defender and 3rd option scorer. Johnson was cut twice by the Rockets right before joining the Spurs, yet he became the best PG Robinson ever played with in his prime. Bob Hill couldn't find a head coaching gig for a decade and a half after being fired by the Spurs.



Maybe, but we will never know. Either way, he had some solid teams that won well over 50 games multiple times, and he was not able to get the job done. Could his team have been better? Sure. Could have have been better himself though? Absolutely. And that's the problem with him. You never really got a run out of him where you could say he truly did everything in his power, and simply was not able to get enough out of his team. His level of play would frequently drop, despite having generally well rounded talent surrounding him. Most players efficiency numbers will drop a bit in the post season, since they are playing better competition on a nightly basis. But his dropped to unacceptable levels in nearly every playoff run. Why? Because Robinson had some noticeable offensive weaknesses, and didn't frequently show the ability to impose his will on a game and take over, the way other superstars show an ability to do so.

That defeats the entire point of the argument, because the Spurs never winning a championship with Robinson as their #1 is a fact. Robinson's production didn't drop in his first two seasons, you know why? Because his backcourt could shoot and his coach was Larry Brown. He sure had some noticeable offensive weaknesses, but so did Dirk, Shaq, or any player not named Jordan. The playoffs is a game of matchups, the Spurs were fine in the series they won. Robinson scored averaged 30/16 in the series over the Lakers in 95, 30/12 vs. Suns in 96, because those teams do not have the coaching to exploit the Spurs obvious weakness.


That is my only real issue with Robinson, as he was great in all other areas. But just didn't seem to have a killer instinct to his game. If he did, then we may be talking about him being the greatest center ever, as there is no questioning he had a great level of ability and natural talents.

He had obvious weaknesses in his game, I don't think he will ever be considered the greatest ever. He is really a SF/PF hybrid, and has never been a natural center. It's not about not having a killer instinct, it's not having the right personnel around him. He averaged 27.7 ppg on 60% shooting vs. the Nuggets in 90, then 23 ppg on 50% shooting vs. Portland in the same playoffs. The next year, he had 26ppg on 69% shooting in a loss vs. the GSW (ironically, that's the series GSW let RObinson have it and stuck to the shooters). Because the Spurs had a real backcourt back then.


Also I notice you have many times compared him to Dirk, in how Dirk needed a "perfect supporting cast", and that if Robinson had the same, he would ring. Maybe true, but lets not act like the 11 Mavs had no weaknesses. 1) they weren't incredibly talented altogether. Outside of Dirk, no one on that team was really standout talent or athlete. 2) they didn't have a dominant penetrator nor a dominant post player. basically, they didn't have any consistent means of efficient scoring. most teams have at least one or the other (usually both), but they were strong in neither area. 3) Marion and Chandler were not strong half court threats. Marion was able to make some occasional plays with his turnaround baby hook, but his lack of shooting was frequently a problem on the team.

The 11 Mavs weren't perfect, they were the perfect cast for Dirk to maximize his strength. Did I mention Carlisle >>>>> Bob Hill? A good coach find ways to overcome a team's weakness, a bad coach can't find a job 15 years after he was fired.


Despite these weaknesses, Dirk found ways to consistently put the team on his back offensively and make the game easier for everyone, even when waves of double and triple teams were being sent at him. That was something we didn't frequently see out of David.

Players had career years playing with Robinson. Avery Johnson, Sucked with a capital S and got cut by multiple teams, bounced around the league before he became Robinson's best PG. Del Negro was struggling with juggernaut franchises like the Kings and Bucks without Robinson taking the defensive pressure to leave him wide opened, Elliott got froze out in Detroit.

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^Pau & Robinson, six of one, half dozen of the other.

[TDMVPDPOY]

ambchang u mention how drob lacked killer instinct

whats the point even if he went 40ppg in a series when his playing with horseshit?

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ambchang (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=986) u mention how drob lacked killer instinct

whats the point even if he went 40ppg in a series when his playing with horseshit?

He loitered "horseshit" himself. But, he was juiced in by Media because of the Navy angle and they fought amongst themselves as to whether they would make him a deity, or, crucify him. Media had decided on the rope when Duncan showed up.

[ambchang]

ambchang u mention how drob lacked killer instinct

whats the point even if he went 40ppg in a series when his playing with horseshit?

I didn't, Phillip did.