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View Full Version : Some stats and thoughts after 40 games



Bruno
01-18-2014, 06:06 PM
31-9 after 40 games, on pace to win 63 or 64 games but I have a hard time getting overly excited about this year Spurs team. Maybe its because of the lack of wins against contenders, maybe it's still last year hangover or maybe it's because of my worried nature, but I'm not that optimistic of this year outcome.


Offense is getting better, defense is getting worse:

After 40 games played, Spurs are the 3rd best offensive team with a OffRtg of 108.0 and the 4th best defensive team with a DefRtg of 99.4.
It may sound like Spurs are a very good team on both end of the floor but, behind these numbers, there is a huge discrepancy:
First 20 games: OffRtg: 106.0; DefRtg: 95.9
Last 20 games: OffRtg: 109.9; DefRtg: 103.3
The defensive drop is especially big. Spurs were the 2nd best defensive team in the first 20 games and were 8th in the last 20 games.


Why is the defense getting worse?

Over the last 20 games, the 3 worst DefRtg for Spurs players are: Ginobili with 108.4, Duncan with 107.1 and 105.5. When they are all 3 on the court at the same time (204 minutes), their DefRtg is on astounding 120.8. In other words, the worst defensive trio in the NBA over the last 20 games is Ginobili/Duncan/Parker.
While one could easily put that on their ages or not being in their best shape, the true reason being these awful numbers is likely that they are taking it easy. At the same time that they have awful defensive numbers, their offensive numbers are great: all 3 have an OffRtg above 113 and when they they are together on the court, the OffRtg is 125.1 which makes them the best offensive trio in the league. What seems likely is when they see the ability they have to score points, they aren't putting the necessary effort on the other end of the court. Ginobili, Duncan and Parker coasting defensively isn't that big of an issue at that stage of the season but they will need to step up after the ASG.

Another issue of these 20 last games is the 3 point defense. In that stretch, Spurs are the second worst team in that area at 38.9% 3P% allowed. They are still not a lot of 3's per game (7.1) but it isn't good.

For the rest of the defense (rebounding, protecting the rim...), Spurs have gone for great to good. I hope that after the ASG, with Green and Splitter back, Parker/Ginobili/Duncan trying more, Spurs could be back at the level they had in the first 20 games. They just don't have a player dominant enough offensively to go far in the playoffs without a good defense.


And they said they were too old...

Since December:
Tim Duncan: 16.1ppg (.462 FG%), 11.2rpg, 3.1apg and 2.0bpg in 30.3mpg
Manu Ginobili: 15.3ppg (.476 FG%, .3913P%), 4.7apg in 24.6mpg

While they weren't that great in November, Tim and Manu have really raised their level since that. Their defense hasn't been very good but they are just producing stat-wise at an amazing level given their age.
If you're not convince by how rare it is, just follow that link: http://bkref.com/tiny/XBRLc


Spurs depth and pop sharing the minutes:

Pop has been very cautious about playing time these past years and it's still the case this season. Parker led Spurs with 1164 minutes played but is only 74th in minutes played this season among NBA players. Pop is really spreading playing time with 7 players between 830 and 1161 minutes played.

What is relatively new however is how great Spurs depth has been. Spurs really have 9 quality players in Parker, Mills, Belinelli, Ginobili, Green, Leonard, Diaw, Splitter and Duncan. Among these 9 players, 8 have a PER above the league average of 15. Green is below average but as a perimeter defender, his contribution doesn't really shine PER-wise.
Even Ayres hasn't been that bad lately. In the last 20 games, he leads Spurs in +/- with a NEtRtg of 14.7. That's his big difference with DeJuan Blair: he doesn't hurt the team.

Finding the right starting lineup:

Pop seems to hesitate on his starting lineup this year. So here are the OffRtg/DefRtg for the main options:
Parker/Green/Leonard/Duncan/Splitter: 91.4/92.2 (137 min)
Parker/Belinelli/Leonard/Duncan/Splitter: 95.1/91.0 (102 min)
Parker/Belinelli/Leonard/Diaw/Duncan: 108.7/118.8 (62 min)
Parker/Green/Leonard/Diaw/Duncan: 109.5/76.2 (61 min)

While the sample size is way too small to draw some kind of conclusions, early results hints that starting Green would be the right move.
What stats show more conclusively is how bad the Leonard/Duncan/Splitter combo is offensively. In 321 minutes played together, their OffRtg is 92.1. The obvious way to break this trio would be to start Diaw instead of Splitter. Diaw biggest weakness is his rebounding but it would be covered by Leonard and Duncan. If Diaw starts, Green seems more appropriate at SG than Belinelli since his playmaking will be less needed.


Spurs' true MVP:

Spurs are 13-0 when Nando is playing.

RD2191
01-18-2014, 06:08 PM
RIP PlayNando:hat

RD2191
01-18-2014, 06:10 PM
Does anyone have any stats on other teams shooting more than the Spurs? Like I sometimes it seems as if other teams are shooting at a fast rate compared to the Spurs, more shots equals more points. IDK, I don't even know what I'm talking about.

SanDiegoSpursFan
01-18-2014, 06:17 PM
Does anyone have any stats on other teams shooting more than the Spurs? Like I sometimes it seems as if other teams are shooting at a fast rate compared to the Spurs, more shots equals more points. IDK, I don't even know what I'm talking about.
Are you talking about pace (possessions per 48 mins)?

RD2191
01-18-2014, 06:21 PM
Are you talking about pace (possessions per 48 mins)?
Dude idk, That might be the term, sounds like it.

SanDiegoSpursFan
01-18-2014, 06:24 PM
Dude idk, That might be the term, sounds like it.
ESPN has the Spurs at 14th among teams in terms of pace: http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/paceFactor

Baam
01-18-2014, 06:24 PM
Thanks great read as always.

Raven
01-18-2014, 06:26 PM
Another issue of these 20 last games is the 3 point defense. In that stretch, Spurs are the second worst team in that area at 38.9% 3P% allowed. They are still not a lot of 3's per game (7.1) but it isn't good.

this says it all tbh, anything less is deeply connected to this, solve this and we have the best team in the league again.

Raven
01-18-2014, 06:27 PM
Does anyone have any stats on other teams shooting more than the Spurs? Like I sometimes it seems as if other teams are shooting at a fast rate compared to the Spurs, more shots equals more points. IDK, I don't even know what I'm talking about.

doesn't count in ORT or DRT

Robz4000
01-18-2014, 06:27 PM
I was excited about the team coming into the season, but it's definitely been tempered down lately. I know its early but the lack of success against the league's elite is worrying. Tim and Tony really don't seem to play as well in those games (Tony especially). The Big 3 might just be too old to get it done finally. The good news is Manu being at a high level; if he stays there and Tim and Tony start performing against stiffer competition better the team will be fine. IMO the defense will sort itself out when everyone gets healthy again and March rolls around. I do wanna see the Spurs make a move for more athleticism/perimeter defense. Not sure what names are out there but Young/Ariza/Johnson are still my top choices.

polandprzem
01-18-2014, 06:28 PM
Good job

:worthy:

RD2191
01-18-2014, 06:30 PM
doesn't count in ORT or DRT
Was off topic but though I'd bring it up.

Joseph Kony
01-18-2014, 06:50 PM
Does anyone have any stats on other teams shooting more than the Spurs? Like I sometimes it seems as if other teams are shooting at a fast rate compared to the Spurs, more shots equals more points. IDK, I don't even know what I'm talking about.

Are you high? :lol

RD2191
01-18-2014, 06:52 PM
Are you high? :lol
Naw man, I trip when I smoke. I start thinking I'm having a heart attack and what not.

Joseph Kony
01-18-2014, 06:53 PM
Sucks dude, I hear that from people now and then and I just feel sorry for them. At least there's booze imo

ABC
01-18-2014, 06:59 PM
Thanks Bruno!

Sean Cagney
01-18-2014, 07:06 PM
I was excited about the team coming into the season, but it's definitely been tempered down lately. I know its early but the lack of success against the league's elite is worrying.

You and OP hit it on the head, don't feel too good right now about this team so far this year because of just this! I am not saying I am not excited for the playoffs still but the next 41 games will tell alot in whether this team can still compete or they are just second round fodder.

Sean Cagney
01-18-2014, 07:07 PM
Naw man, I trip when I smoke. I start thinking I'm having a heart attack and what not.

Smoking used to give me anxiety attacks as well, can relate fully.
Sucks dude, I hear that from people now and then and I just feel sorry for them. At least there's booze imo

Which is why I switched to booze years ago! I hate the hangovers though and so on, not the same as smoking then waking up feeling just a little tired but usually okay. Booze is good in moderation, get drunk here or there but most of the time just a buzz.

Libri
01-18-2014, 07:10 PM
defense is getting worse

:pctoss

313
01-18-2014, 07:13 PM
Losing to the other top teams is only a concern when it happens in the playoffs.

TD 21
01-18-2014, 07:16 PM
It's been obvious for weeks that Diaw needs to start, but like I said weeks ago, they're clearly reticent to make the move because they don't have a backup PF in that scenario. Bonner would be the (internal) solution, but he's no longer a rotation player when they're fully healthy, so they'd be left with Ayres next to Splitter, which isn't happening.

For once, the front office needs to not play it safe, which in this case would be hoping Duncan's jump shot returns. It's been half a season, his shot looks broken and he's clearly lacking confidence in it. If they do not make a move to rectify this, they're probably eliminated in the second round.

superjames1992
01-18-2014, 08:46 PM
Splitter's return will help the defense, IMO.

Hoops Czar
01-18-2014, 09:53 PM
Another issue of these 20 last games is the 3 point defense. In that stretch, Spurs are the second worst team in that area at 38.9% 3P% allowed. They are still not a lot of 3's per game (7.1) but it isn't good.

this says it all tbh, anything less is deeply connected to this, solve this and we have the best team in the league again.

Sure, play Belinelli and Mills less. Thats not happening

DAF86
01-18-2014, 10:25 PM
Spurs' true MVP:

Spurs are 13-0 when Nando is playing.

This calls for a PlayNando rebirth, imho.

spurs10
01-18-2014, 10:31 PM
Am I reading this correctly that we are 44 points worse defensively per 61 minutes when Beli is playing than when Green is playing? Obviously Beli has played more with the starters in the last 20 games when our defense has slipped considerably. Also, the Big 3 have been much worse defensively, stat wise, in the last 20 games.

Also, it would appear we are much worse defensively when Tim Duncan is playing. Is this simply due to amount of minutes in the sample size? There is a 35 point differential in off. and def. when Tim isn't playing.

ElNono
01-18-2014, 10:34 PM
Thanks for the writeup, Bruno

spurs10
01-18-2014, 10:44 PM
Also, has there been any games where Tim wasn't in the starting lineup?

TXstbobcat
01-19-2014, 12:09 AM
Thank you Bruno.

KaiRMD1
01-19-2014, 12:33 AM
Well hopefully that defense can pick up but I knew the three point defense was shit this season. Just from watching the Houston & Portland games alone.

Chinook
01-19-2014, 12:45 AM
Also, has there been any games where Tim wasn't in the starting lineup?

Yes.

Uriel
01-19-2014, 06:48 AM
Great read. :tu Though you could've waited until after the 41st game so you could call it an analysis of the halfway point of the season. :lol

adonis827
01-19-2014, 09:14 AM
Spurs' true MVP:

Spurs are 13-0 when Nando is playing.

Nando only see floor time when Spurs are comfortably ahead so nothing new there. He is the new human victory cigar!

Mugen
01-19-2014, 11:15 AM
Thanks B.

EVAY
01-19-2014, 11:32 AM
Thanks for the write-up. I can't figure out what the spurs are trying to accomplish on the defensive end most of the time. I get that we don't want to give away three point shots, and it seems to me that we are not that bad on that during the early seconds of a shot clock. But then we are always wanting our guards to help with rebounding, so after a shot goes up from wherever from the opposition, everybody on the Spurs tries to get a rebound, leaving the perimeter wide open for whatever second shot opportunity comes from the other team getting the offensive rebound. On those occasions when we succeed in running guys off the three point line it is usually into a screen or pick from one of the opponent's bigs into our perimeter defenders. Then, rather than switching, our picked off or screened perimeter defender is useless against the midrange jumper because our bigs don't switch on the pick and roll (except Diaw) when it is on the perimeter…they just back up off the screened or picked perimeter player and watch them put up a midrange shot right over them. It is entirely frustrating to watch.

z0sa
01-19-2014, 11:44 AM
The Spurs are fine, all things considered. I fully expect another deep playoff run and give them reasonable odds at securing at least another consolation prize (WCF title).

DMC
01-19-2014, 11:57 AM
Are you high? :lol

He could duck hunt with a rake

spurs10
01-19-2014, 02:17 PM
Bruno, My understanding of OffRtg and DefRtg is the difference is the NetRtg. I recently saw us in someone's Power Rankings as number one with a NetRtg of +9 (approximently).

In the stats you give, although the minutes differ greatly, it appears we are at our best NetRg wise when Tim and Beli aren't playing. TP/Green/Kawhi/ Boris/ Tiago have an incredible +33. I'm sure , as you stated, this is partly do to the small sample size. On the other hand, TP/Green/Kawhi/Tim/Tiago, our starting lineup in the playoffs, have a NetRtg of -.8.

Just wondering if I'm understanding this correctly and how much I should read into this. It's hard to believe that we are remiss in playing Tim as a starter. Thoughts? Merci! :toast

Bruno
01-19-2014, 02:32 PM
Bruno, My understanding of OffRtg and DefRtg is the difference is the NetRtg. I recently saw us in someone's Power Rankings as number one with a NetRtg of +9 (approximently).


OffRtg: points scored per 100 possessions.
DefRtg: points allowed per 100 possessions.
NetRtg= OffRtg - DeffRtg

These stats are similar to points scored and points allowed except that they are adjusted to the pace of the game. For reference, Spurs pace (that is to say possessions per 48 minutes) is 96.94.

For the rest, I've made a typing mistake in the OP. The lineup with a +33 NetRtg is TP/Green/Leonard/Diaw/Duncan. I was looking at who should start between Belinelli/Green and Diaw/Splitter.

spurs10
01-19-2014, 02:38 PM
OffRtg: points scored per 100 possessions.
DefRtg: points allowed per 100 possessions.
NetRtg= OffRtg - DeffRtg

These stats are similar to points scored and points allowed except that they are adjusted to the pace of the game. For reference, Spurs pace (that is to say possessions per 48 minutes) is 96.94.

For the rest, I've made a typing mistake in the OP. The lineup with a +33 NetRtg is TP/Green/Leonard/Diaw/Duncan. I was looking at who should start between Belinelli/Green and Diaw/Splitter.
Many thanks! Makes sense. This analysis is greatly appreciated and makes ST a great place to come for Spurs info! :flag:

wildchild
01-19-2014, 04:26 PM
Thanks Bruno!!!


Splitter's return will help the defense, IMO.
Green's returns and give him more minutes (to come back in the starting lineup) will help, too.

Against backcourts like OKC, Houston, GS, we need this guy. I've said before in thoughts/grades thread, Spurs struggle to defend the Blazers pick-and-roll, our backcourt with Parker-Manu-Beli is an unbalanced lineup (great offense, shitty defense)
If you have -not one, not two, but- three guys in lineup who can't their parts on D and aren't good defenders, the defense'll fail.

Some people don't realize how good on-ball defender is Danny Green and the impact he makes on Spurs defense.
IMO it's not a big deal if Danny's 3's aren't falling if the other team can't score, but if the Spurs want to trade him (let's hope not), we'll need at least another solid and versatile perimeter defender.

heyheymymy
01-19-2014, 05:49 PM
good thoughts bruno

and wait, playnando bailed?