The truth about Kawhi Leonard [Archive]

Baam

01-18-2014, 06:15 PM

http://i.imgur.com/C6XawmA.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HXnyLfY.jpg

The second player launches twice as many 3s while Kawhi passes them up on the regular which explains the FG difference, but regardless you have Kawhi's ceiling so stop asking for him to become Paul George or something...

apalisoc_9

01-18-2014, 06:20 PM

The stats above doesn't show how many three's kawhi has passed up. Try again.

Baam

01-18-2014, 06:26 PM

The second player is Batum fyi.

Kawhi Leonard is Batum with worse passing and better rebounding, bar none, he doesn't need more shots and wouldn't get them on another contender...

apalisoc_9

01-18-2014, 06:27 PM

your stats proved nothing..

Bruno

01-18-2014, 06:35 PM

The truth about Kawhi is that he is having his best year as a Spur.

Bruno

01-18-2014, 06:49 PM

And to know if Kawhi is passive or just not very involved in Spurs offense, there are a relatively good stats with points scored per half court touch.

This stat for Spurs players:
Splitter: 0.43
Duncan: 0.40
Leonard: 0.38
Belinelli: 0.37
Bonner: 0.36
Diaw: 0.34
Ginobili: 0.34
Green: 0.31
Parker: 0.26
Mills: 0.26
Ayres: 0.25

This stat, even if it isn't perfect, hint that the main reason why Kawhi isn't scoring more is that he doesn't receive enough offensive touches.

KL2

01-18-2014, 06:54 PM

The second player is Batum fyi.

Kawhi Leonard is Batum with worse passing and better rebounding, bar none, he doesn't need more shots and wouldn't get them on another contender...

Kawhi isn't a spot up shooter, never has been, not even in college. I don't even know why people compare George/Batum/Whoever to Leonard, they play the same position and that's it, their games are completely different.

At 6'7 230 he's already one of the biggest, strongest players at his position, too quick for PF's to guard, too strong for most SF's to defend. He's money in the post, or in the paint, his jumper isn't too bad either. His PG refuses to pass him the ball, his teammates won't even set screens for him, and his coach isn't doing shit about it.

apalisoc_9

01-18-2014, 07:09 PM

Kawhi isn't a spot up shooter, never has been, not even in college. I don't even know why people compare George/Batum/Whoever to Leonard, they play the same position and that's it, their games are completely different.

At 6'7 230 he's already one of the biggest, strongest players at his position, too quick for PF's to guard, too strong for most SF's to defend. He's money in the post, or in the paint, his jumper isn't too bad either. His PG refuses to pass him the ball, his teammates won't even set screens for him, and his coach isn't doing shit about it.

stop droppiing truth bombs bro..

It's kawhi's fault cause he's not aggressive enough. :lmao

Seriously, people that expect kawhi to be as aggressive as a SG in Pop's system..SMH.

Kawhi doesn't have much option to be aggresive..it's either he breaks the system or stay within the system. He knows it, RJ knew it....

hooperflash

01-18-2014, 07:16 PM

J.R. SMIFF :lol

wildchild

01-19-2014, 04:20 PM

so stop asking for him to become Paul George
No kidding! Leonard is not Paul George? Damn it!

or something...
At least he's George Paul (Mayers)??

wildchild

01-19-2014, 04:21 PM

The comparisons between two players who play two entirely different roles in their team systems are always meaningless, even stupid.
If I add other stats which don't tell the whole story, it keeps getting worse, but...

http://i.imgur.com/ihxQ6KI.jpg
http://www.poundingtherock.com/2014/1/18/5309258/mid-season-kawhi-leonard-development-update?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co
http://i.imgur.com/s6A9JKH.jpg

Looking at these two sets of numbers, the differences aren't abysmal with respect to the two most valuable young stars of the league like George and Hayward.
I think these stats more accurately reflect the developments of those guys in their first three seasons.

TheGoldStandard

01-19-2014, 04:35 PM

Kawhi is a beta right now, when he touches the ball he needs to create regardless of the consequences

Pako

01-19-2014, 04:39 PM

It is hard to compare kawhi to paul george or any other star player because he does get the same amount of play as them.. You will see his growth/impact when play off start because the rotation decrease which will result to more plays for Kawhi....

DMC

01-19-2014, 09:15 PM

Kawhi is a beta right now, when he touches the ball he needs to create regardless of the consequences

He's 4th option. Of course he's beta.

james evans

01-19-2014, 09:33 PM

Kawhi isn't a spot up shooter, never has been, not even in college. I don't even know why people compare George/Batum/Whoever to Leonard, they play the same position and that's it, their games are completely different.

At 6'7 230 he's already one of the biggest, strongest players at his position, too quick for PF's to guard, too strong for most SF's to defend. He's money in the post, or in the paint, his jumper isn't too bad either. His PG refuses to pass him the ball, his teammates won't even set screens for him, and his coach isn't doing shit about it.
i agree. i don't know if he resigns with us the way he's underused. i don't see why he would. popovich is a guy that does things his way regardless if they are right or wrong, he's not gonna change for anyone.

apalisoc_9

01-19-2014, 09:36 PM

i agree. i don't know if he resigns with us the way he's underused. i don't see why he would. popovich is a guy that does things his way regardless if they are right or wrong, he's not gonna change for anyone.

Pretty much. He's a RFA, but simple words can do the trick..Who knows I mean even some sort of locker room problem ( highly unlikely) and the kid is out. The Kid doesn't look motivated at all out there and Judging on how he plays in the offensive end, it's like he always assumes the ball is only going to him when there is a set play wherein he needs to pass the ball..

He's being used more now than last year but the eye test suggest, the kid isn't looking for the ball at all this year..Last year he did. Seems like he's frustrated about something.

exstatic

01-19-2014, 10:44 PM

Pretty much. He's a RFA, but simple words can do the trick..Who knows I mean even some sort of locker room problem ( highly unlikely) and the kid is out. The Kid doesn't look motivated at all out there and Judging on how he plays in the offensive end, it's like he always assumes the ball is only going to him when there is a set play wherein he needs to pass the ball..

He's being used more now than last year but the eye test suggest, the kid isn't looking for the ball at all this year..Last year he did. Seems like he's frustrated about something.
He's taking more shots this year. He's attacking from the perimeter more this year. Where do you people get this stuff?

Tim and Manu aren't playing more than this year and maybe next. Kawhi will be no worse than option #2 then.

apalisoc_9

01-19-2014, 10:53 PM

He's taking more shots this year. He's attacking from the perimeter more this year. Where do you people get this stuff?

Tim and Manu aren't playing more than this year and maybe next. Kawhi will be no worse than option #2 then.

I said he gets the ball more this year than last year.

But there's a huge difference in body language with kawhi IMO..Last year even without touches, the kid looked energetic. This year, he looks frustrated after a night of 5-6 or 6-8..Kid just doesn't look happy out there sometimes.

I'm sure he isn't as evidence with his interview.

exstatic

01-19-2014, 11:15 PM

I said he gets the ball more this year than last year.

But there's a huge difference in body language with kawhi IMO..Last year even without touches, the kid looked energetic. This year, he looks frustrated after a night of 5-6 or 6-8..Kid just doesn't look happy out there sometimes.

I'm sure he isn't as evidence with his interview.

He's 21. Everything seems to take forever at that age. Tonight was his 162nd game. Even though it's his 3rd season, he's really only played about 2 season's worth of games, what with the lockout and missing time last year. He'll just have to wait another year or so, and the Spurs have him under contractual control this year and next, with a fifth year option, to boot. Things will be better for him by then.

apalisoc_9

01-19-2014, 11:34 PM

For the record, i think pop does put in effort to the guy going.

Today, he straight out got benched for passing instead of posting up Ridunour..I think Sean Marks was telling him that.

I'm not sure if anyone noticed.

rasuo214

01-20-2014, 02:46 AM

The problem is the offense encourages him to be beta because the SF is supposed to sit at the corner and just wait. He's probably getting mixed signals on playing the offense and also being told to be more aggressive. This is more evident when Parker is playing because he dominates the basketball so much. When Parker isn't in the lineup there's a lot more movement and you see that Kawhi's more likely to be aggressive (still needs to be more assertive but there's definitely a difference).

wildchild

01-20-2014, 02:56 AM

He's being used more

He's taking more shots this year.

Significantly more touches (like you want to improve the offense of young player)? I don't think so.

the main reason why Kawhi isn't scoring more is that he doesn't receive enough offensive touches.

IMO developing offensive skills requires learning progression that starts with involving the young guy- even if he develops perfect offense in practices, he needs have the opportunity to execute during games-.

When Spurs trade Hill for Leonard, they were looking for a unique set of Kawhi's skills on both ends, because in college he had the ability to run pick-&-roll (even he wasn't the primary ball handler of Aztecs), play hard in low post (he was an hybrid between SF and PF), really good rebounder, great defender, the whole package -of course, minus corner 3-point shooter-.
You might think it's vital for the Spurs to develop Kawhi in the regular season with a view to playoffs but...you could be wrong.

Cowboys_Wear_Spurs

01-20-2014, 09:52 AM

Kawhi showed everyone what he is capable in last year's playoff. But during the season, the Spurs strictly run their system, and unfortunately, that means Kawhi isn't going to get many touches. I guarantee you, towards the end of the season, Pop will start trying to exploit matchups more than just strictly running the Spurs system, night in and night out.

That is how the Spurs have made it to the WCF and the Finals the past two years. Once Duncan and Manu are gone, probably by next year, this will be Kawhi's team and at that point he will have a different role throughout the season for the Spurs. You just need to look at the Spurs/GSW game this year to see what Kawhi role will be in the future.

DMC

01-20-2014, 11:26 AM

The team will never be Kawhi's team. He's not good enough on offense to carry a team. If the Spurs drop Manu and Tim, they will have to pick up a decent free agent or be a bubble team.

weebo

01-20-2014, 11:40 AM

KL is often too passive on offense…don't know why that is. You can't say its because of Parker, Pop or the system the Spurs run. Hell, look at Patty Mills with his chucking up shots left and right. He gets the ball enough to be able to do something with it besides passing it back to Parker or Green for a brick.

apalisoc_9

01-20-2014, 11:46 AM

weebo

01-20-2014, 03:25 PM

Mills is a guard..The System naturally would want him to run PnR

:lmao @ Mills knowing what the PnR is…Mills is a chucker…he sees any kind of an opening and he shoots it almost from anywhere on the court

apalisoc_9

01-20-2014, 03:29 PM

:lmao @ Mills knowing what the PnR is…Mills is a chucker…he sees any kind of an opening and he shoots it almost from anywhere on the court

That's his role.

weebo

01-20-2014, 03:39 PM

That's his role.

To chuck with reckless abandon? Ok, got it thanks. What about KL doing the same? Oh noes his role is to stand in the corner and shoot corner 3's,whatever….KL needs to be more aggressive and less afraid of stepping on anyone's toes. Plain and simple.

No wonder he doesn't get enough touches or is the forgotten man in the offense. He defers more than any other starter on the Spurs.

TheGoldStandard

01-20-2014, 04:00 PM

To chuck with reckless abandon? Ok, got it thanks. What about KL doing the same? Oh noes his role is to stand in the corner and shoot corner 3's,whatever….KL needs to be more aggressive and less afraid of stepping on anyone's toes. Plain and simple.

No wonder he doesn't get enough touches or is the forgotten man in the offense. He defers more than any other starter on the Spurs.

Some people tend to think that Pop will blow up and trade him.. lol, that's not happening. Kawhi is playing with house money this season and next and he needs to take advantage of that to either send a message to the coaching staff especially Pop or to the other GM's of the league that he can be a valuable piece.

G-Dawgg

01-20-2014, 04:03 PM

The difference is Bellineli in the starting lineup. Him shooting so much cuts into the amount of shots Kawhi Leonard gets to take...... Danny Green never fired up as many shots as Bellineli does.

TheGoldStandard

01-20-2014, 04:05 PM

The difference is Bellineli in the starting lineup. Him shooting so much cuts into Kawhi's touches..... Danny Green never fired up ad many shots as Bellineli does.

Belli is not there for any other reason but to shoot so he takes them when he touches the ball. Outside of Parker nobody on that starting line up creates there own shot so Belli was inserted for more offensive production. Starters were prone to starting slow and being down 8 or 10 early before getting into the game and bench exploiting that. Rotations are starting to get smaller from other teams, starters are playing bigger minutes.

G-Dawgg

01-20-2014, 04:07 PM

Belli is not there for any other reason but to shoot so he takes them when he touches the ball. Outside of Parker nobody on that starting line up creates there own shot so Belli was inserted for more offensive production. Starters were prone to starting slow and being down 8 or 10 early before getting into the game and bench exploiting that. Rotations are starting to get smaller from other teams, starters are playing bigger minutes.

Exactly my point. Playing on the same line as Bellineli may cut into Kawhi's numbers because Bellineli shoots so much, which means less shots for Leonard

TheGoldStandard

01-20-2014, 04:13 PM

Exactly my point. Playing on the same line as Bellineli may cut into Kawhi's numbers because Bellineli shoots so much, which means less shots for Leonard

I agree with you but the point I am making, which some will argue that it's not Kawhi's job in the system to create shots but to sit there and wait for the ball, is that he needs to take advantage of the opportunities that he actually touches the ball. He defers too much.. He's playing with house money, he's not going to get traded or cut by the team for taking shots or forcing the issue and he's not going to get benched for very long if they do try to reprimand him. The Spurs needs him a lot more than he needs the Spurs and without being too much of a dick he needs to let them know that.

G-Dawgg

01-20-2014, 04:32 PM

Maybe he should just become a chucker.. lol

james evans

01-20-2014, 04:50 PM

Maybe he should just become a chucker.. lol
or maybe he should start outright playing bad. that will guarantee him longer minutes in popovich's system along with a new contract

wildchild

01-20-2014, 05:10 PM

No wonder he doesn't get enough touches or is the forgotten man in the offense. He defers more than any other starter on the Spurs.
He defers more than any other starter because he's younger than them?

He defers too much..
He defers too much because he -like young players in their third year as pro- has low self confidence?

In both cases, the coach should try to build his confidence with more minutes on the floor, calling his number, helping to realise his full potential (few minutes, not many touches, and forget him on the bench isn't the way)

How do you think to build self confidence of young players? The big deal is that the young players aren't born with it, you must help them.

lefty

01-21-2014, 11:19 PM

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by TDMVPDPOY (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7086216#post7086216)
i will have to vent in this thread since i cbf lookin up for others to bump

kawhi has gotten my attention that he hasnt improved at all this year, a player only improves when u see a significant "incremental increase: across the board

someone posted his avgs since rookie season and all 3 years has been the same each year, so tell me wheres the jump in his stats?

he does alot of things on t he court that doesnt appear on the stat sheet, but alot of clowns love advance stats and statsheets, they dont give 2 shits what isnt intangible thats not on the statsheet recorded...

have a stud who can be all round player, but force to be spot up shooter defensive stopper = what a fkn load of horseshit...nobody is stopping this clown from developing besides enrique and that clown coach...fck it,

contract year for kawhi and they are downplaying his role so they can low ball him just as expected...

Chomag

01-22-2014, 04:13 PM

It does seem the FO is keeping KL very restricted, could be so they can lowball him on his contract and try to pay him roll player type money IDK. However I do have a strong feeling
KL will have none of it and bounce. You can see him getting pretty frustrated with things through his body language and even his interviews have been a bit testy toned this year.

HarlemHeat37

04-06-2014, 07:35 PM

The second player is Batum fyi.

Kawhi Leonard is Batum with worse passing and better rebounding, bar none, he doesn't need more shots and wouldn't get them on another contender...

Great take, tbh..

KawhiLeonard

04-06-2014, 07:39 PM

Kawhi is a way better defender than batum

Baam

04-06-2014, 09:20 PM

Great take, tbh..

Batum is still a better comparison than Paul George but good to see him become more aggressive.

SpursFan86

04-06-2014, 09:25 PM

Kawhi is a better scorer, rebounder, and defender than Batum. Batum is a better ball-handler and playmaker. Lol @ saying Batum is Kawhi's "ceiling" when Kawhi at 22 years old is already better than Batum has ever been.