How do you guys feel about the student loan situation?

[Thebesteva]

I just want your guys opinion, not bringing any personal stuff. I'm just curious, as an MD I see student loans increasing and wages decreasing. More and more educated individuals are chosing to work 9-5 than to pursue an education because it costs too much to become anything now a days. The financial gain just isn't there anymore.

For example, a veterinary student has to pay $250-300k to become a veterinarian on an average and make $60 k a year.
Loans continue to increase, and more and more people chose to stray away from a field in medicine.

Do you guys feel this is wrong? It seems the US is the only country doing this, or is there a logical reason behind why the US does this because I can't see it.

[boutons_deux]

Just another way: America is fucked and unfuckable.

The cost of college means that only the rich can afford college, worsening inequality.

The Repug push for austerity, like cutting Pell grants, makes it even worse. Fits into their general, obvious strategy as the party of the wealthy: Repugs protect/enrich the 1%, screw the 99%

"Keller is one of the estimated 100,000 students in the U.S. who were affected by Pell Grant cuts after Congress reduced eligibility for the grant in 2011. Under the new guidelines, students are only eligible for 12 semesters of Pell aid as opposed to the original 18."

http://dailyemerald.com/2013/03/25/cuts-to-federal-pell-grants-cause-trouble-for-low-income-students/

At the same time, colleges are preferring students who can pay their own way, need no financing from the school or govt.

[boutons_deux]

Upward Mobility No Tougher In U.S. Than Two Decades Ago
A new study finds that contrary to widespread belief, it's no harder to climb the economic ladder in the United States today than it was 20 years ago.


But the study did find that moving up that ladder is still a lot more difficult in the U.S. than in other developed countries.

The bad news is that growing income inequality has made the gap between income levels much wider than in the past, Autor says.

A person who's born at the bottom and stays there is further behind than ever before.

"The costs of immobility have risen, because the lifetime difference in earnings now between someone born at the bottom quartile versus top quartile is much, much greater than it used to be,"

It said economic mobility in the United States remains behind that of other wealthy countries. An American born at the bottom has about an 8 percent chance of rising to the top, it found; the odds are twice that in Denmark. ( heavily socialized, HEAVILY taxed Denmark is the land of opportunity :lol )

the sad fact is that it's always been very hard in the United States relative to other countries

many parts of the Southeast and the Rust Belt look more like the developing world. ( aka RED states, right-to-work-for-less, and stay that way )

there's a strong correlation between advancement and certain kinds of social factors: the quality of schools, the degree of racial segregation, and whether you grew up in a two-parent household.

http://www.npr.org/2014/01/23/265356290/study-upward-mobility-no-tougher-in-u-s-than-two-decades-ago?sc=17&f=1001

[CosmicCowboy]

Part of the problem is all the crap you are required to take to get a degree. My degree required 146 hours and at least half of it was bullshit I didn't want or need. Fortunately I placed out of 28 hours coming out of high school honors classed but it was still infuriating having to pay for and waste time on all that unnecessary stuff. When I see Boutons bitching about what doctors make I just shake my head...It takes 10 years of their life and several hundred thousand dollars to get that MD with brutal classes and internships and they can't even start earning money until they are in their 30's. If they want to start their own private practice it involves borrowing several hundred thousand more. Hell most of them are middle aged by the time they get all their loans paid back. Dudes deserve to get paid. That being said, I see kids all the time living on their student loans, giving minimum effort to actually learning anything worthwhile and going for bullshit degrees just because it's easy and gives them all the time they want to party.. then they finally get out of school or quit after 6 or 8 years and bitch because there are no jobs out there for them and whine about having to pay back all that money they borrowed to party and chase pussy. Fuck them. I have absolutely no sympathy for them.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Part of the problem is all the crap you are required to take to get a degree. My degree required 146 hours and at least half of it was bullshit I didn't want or need. Fortunately I placed out of 28 hours coming out of high school honors classed but it was still infuriating having to pay for and waste time on all that unnecessary stuff. When I see Boutons bitching about what doctors make I just shake my head...It takes 10 years of their life and several hundred thousand dollars to get that MD with brutal classes and internships and they can't even start earning money until they are in their 30's. If they want to start their own private practice it involves borrowing several hundred thousand more. Hell most of them are middle aged by the time they get all their loans paid back. Dudes deserve to get paid. That being said, I see kids all the time living on their student loans, giving minimum effort to actually learning anything worthwhile and going for bullshit degrees just because it's easy and gives them all the time they want to party.. then they finally get out of school or quit after 6 or 8 years and bitch because there are no jobs out there for them and whine about having to pay back all that money they borrowed to party and chase pussy. Fuck them. I have absolutely no sympathy for them.

u will never make up that money quick to pay ur student loan, quickest way is to graduate open up ur GP and start rorting the system with fake biling, why go work in a hospital and shit,

[TDMVPDPOY]

just look at the many unqualified doctors on ur corner block street dealing drugs...they make more then ur avg doctor

[boutons_deux]

Part of the problem is all the crap you are required to take to get a degree. My degree required 146 hours and at least half of it was bullshit I didn't want or need. Fortunately I placed out of 28 hours coming out of high school honors classed but it was still infuriating having to pay for and waste time on all that unnecessary stuff. When I see Boutons bitching about what doctors make I just shake my head...It takes 10 years of their life and several hundred thousand dollars to get that MD with brutal classes and internships and they can't even start earning money until they are in their 30's. If they want to start their own private practice it involves borrowing several hundred thousand more. Hell most of them are middle aged by the time they get all their loans paid back. Dudes deserve to get paid. That being said, I see kids all the time living on their student loans, giving minimum effort to actually learning anything worthwhile and going for bullshit degrees just because it's easy and gives them all the time they want to party.. then they finally get out of school or quit after 6 or 8 years and bitch because there are no jobs out there for them and whine about having to pay back all that money they borrowed to party and chase pussy. Fuck them. I have absolutely no sympathy for them.

why the fuck go to college? just take CC's philistine advice and go straight to voc/trade school.

don't screw around with with useless history, english, philosophy, literature, etc voc/trade school is all you need be a dumbed-down, illiterate, uneducated manual worker, wage slave

CC's anecdotes obviously represent 100% of students on college loans, like St Ronnie WelFare Queens in Cadillacs typify (black) people on public assistance.

There's no fucking reason for mecial interns to put in 80+ hours/week. they don't learn shit and make LOTS of errors at that level of fatigue. 80+ hours/week trains them for nothing they will do as doctors. They should go be apprentices in primary care or walk-in clinics

The expense and length of medical training is the problem. Rather than have citizens pay exorbitant medical bills FOREVER so patient-flipping, greedy over-charging docs and greedy for-profit insurers can suck America's wealth by $1T+ per year, why not have taxpayers fund medical training directly, in return for docs, nurses committing to x years of salaried service in public hospitals and clinics?

Also, there's an INTENDED scarcity of medical education places due to the medical profession restricting the number of students to well below demand, which helps drive up the doctor's exorbitant compensation.

[baseline bum]

Part of the problem is all the crap you are required to take to get a degree. My degree required 146 hours and at least half of it was bullshit I didn't want or need. Fortunately I placed out of 28 hours coming out of high school honors classed but it was still infuriating having to pay for and waste time on all that unnecessary stuff.

It's maddening how many garbage classes you have to take in American universities. So much better if it was like Euro schools where you take your major and a few supporting classes instead of jerking off in literature, history, foreign language, and all other kinds of similar crap that postpone your graduation and force you to get into even more debt with no real gain in employment skills. That crap is what high school is for.

[boutons_deux]

Study Debunks Classic Argument About Low-Wage Workers

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1579200/original.jpg
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/24/low-wage-workers-education_n_4653020.html

[boutons_deux]

“The outstanding faults of the economic society in which we live are its failure to provide for full employment and its arbitrary and inequitable distribution of wealth and incomes.”

-- J M Keynes, 1936
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/24/opinion/krugman-the-populist-imperative.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=1

[The Reckoning]

the problem is we have this mindset that everyone should go to college. i wish i had just learned a trade instead and maaaaybe go to college later on part time if i became an entrepreneur or something.

[The Reckoning]

u will never make up that money quick to pay ur student loan, quickest way is to graduate open up ur GP and start rorting the system with fake biling, why go work in a hospital and shit,


stfu aussies get interest free loans so you can be career students if you want. then the gov. does all the financing for you and just takes a payment out of your checks once you start working.

[The Reckoning]

It's maddening how many garbage classes you have to take in American universities. So much better if it was like Euro schools where you take your major and a few supporting classes instead of jerking off in literature, history, foreign language, and all other kinds of similar crap that postpone your graduation and force you to get into even more debt with no real gain in employment skills. That crap is what high school is for.


most kids don't know their majors until junior year though. in europe you apply directly into the program and not necessarily the uni, so if you transfer programs you have to start all over.

[boutons_deux]

the problem is we have this mindset that everyone should go to college. i wish i had just learned a trade instead and maaaaybe go to college later on part time if i became an entrepreneur or something.

for decades, college grads earned Ms more over their working years than HS grads or dropouts. Not sure if that will continue now the VRWC's globalization and free trade scams have destroyed Ms of good paying US jobs.

[baseline bum]

most kids don't know their majors until junior year though. in europe you apply directly into the program and not necessarily the uni, so if you transfer programs you have to start all over.

So there you only have worthless courses if you switch majors, whereas here you take them 100% of the time.

[angrydude]

The dirty secret is you're never going to get rich if you do what everyone else does. When everyone goes to college it loses its value.

Only 3 ways to get rich in America
1. inherit it
2. hit the stock market lottery
3. start a lucrative business

[The Reckoning]

for decades, college grads earned Ms more over their working years than HS grads or dropouts. Not sure if that will continue now the VRWC's globalization and free trade scams have destroyed Ms of good paying US jobs.


i'd bet that non college grads with a solid trade skill make more than your average college graduate.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

the problem is we have this mindset that everyone should go to college. i wish i had just learned a trade instead and maaaaybe go to college later on part time if i became an entrepreneur or something.

This is such a crock of shit. America's college attendance rate is lower than any other modern country in the world.

[baseline bum]

shit, wrong thread niggas

[The Reckoning]

This is such a crock of shit. America's college attendance rate is lower than any other modern country in the world.


lol wut where did you get that from?

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.TER.ENRR

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.TER.ENRR/countries/1W?display=map

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

So according that graph 95% of Americans went to/go to college?

:lmao I call bullshit

[The Reckoning]

tertiary education means any kind of education that is beyond high school. vocational schools are probably included.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

I always love these trade school nuthuggers.

"You'd be much better off going to a for profit trade school like Devry!" :lmao

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

tertiary education means any kind of education that is beyond high school. vocational schools are probably included.

So your graph has nothing to do with what I said then. Gotcha.

Maybe you should have gone to a trade school about graphs.

[The Reckoning]

So your graph has nothing to do with what I said then. Gotcha.

Maybe you should have gone to a trade school about graphs.

it does. it's meant as a comparison to all the schools in europe whose tertiary levels are lower than the US even with that factored in.


i'll make do with my two undergraduate degrees and masters degree, thanks.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

it does. it's meant as a comparison to all the schools in europe whose tertiary levels are lower than the US even with that factored in.


i'll make do with my two undergraduate degrees and masters degree, thanks.

No, it doesn't. I said college, I didn't say any kind of education beyond high school.

I already knew American trade school produced the finest plumbers in the world :lol

[Jacob1983]

America definitely has the mentality of "you have to go to college and if you don't, you're a loser". There is nothing wrong with picking up a trade or skill at a trade school. Plumbers, electricians, mechanics, and hair stylists can make a lot of money.

[boutons_deux]

America definitely has the mentality of "you have to go to college and if you don't, you're a loser". There is nothing wrong with picking up a trade or skill at a trade school. Plumbers, electricians, mechanics, and hair stylists can make a lot of money.

hairdresser, no.

http://www1.salary.com/hairdresser-Salary.html

auto mechanic, not too bad if you're good and "level III", but the ceiling is low.

http://www1.salary.com/Automotive-Mechanic-III-Salary.html

[ElNono]

It's maddening how many garbage classes you have to take in American universities. So much better if it was like Euro schools where you take your major and a few supporting classes instead of jerking off in literature, history, foreign language, and all other kinds of similar crap that postpone your graduation and force you to get into even more debt with no real gain in employment skills. That crap is what high school is for.

Not only that, they're mostly public colleges and tuition is cheap as hell... Germany, Italy, France, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands... all have universities in the top 100 and in all cases yearly tuition is under $1000...

[baseline bum]

Not only that, they're mostly public colleges and tuition is cheap as hell... Germany, Italy, France, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands... all have universities in the top 100 and in all cases yearly tuition is under $1000...

And the education is better. Blows me away when I talk to students in France who do real analysis freshman year, and measure theory and functional analysis second year. Measure theory+Lebesgue integration is usually done senior year or first year grad school in the US and functional analysis is almost always a graduate course.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

And the education is better. Blows me away when I talk to students in France who do real analysis freshman year, and measure theory and functional analysis second year. Measure theory+Lebesgue integration is usually done senior year or first year grad school in the US and functional analysis is almost always a graduate course.

:lol my friend who moved here from India after 8th grade said the math he learned in HS + calc 1 and 2 was all review for him.

I'm not gonna lie the two 400 level math classes I took my senior year were not only a joke, but people still fucked up so much in them so there was a giant curve at the end. The only hard math classes I had in college were when the professor was from Ukraine or Russia :lol

[baseline bum]

:lol my friend who moved here from India after 8th grade said the math he learned in HS + calc 1 and 2 was all review for him.

I'm not gonna lie the two 400 level math classes I took my senior year were not only a joke, but people still fucked up so much in them so there was a giant curve at the end. The only hard math classes I had in college were when the professor was from Ukraine or Russia :lol

Yeah, India's no joke when it comes to their good students. You can watch courses from the IIT system of colleges at YouTube on the nptel channel, and their math starts with real analysis, their physics with waves and vibrations. Surprisingly, their computer science courses are pretty lame in comparison to top American programs like Berkeley's or Princeton's though.

[Wild Cobra]

Study Debunks Classic Argument About Low-Wage Workers

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1579200/original.jpg
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/24/low-wage-workers-education_n_4653020.html
Maybe these same ones that don't get the better jobs should have never wasted time going to college...

[Wild Cobra]

the problem is we have this mindset that everyone should go to college. i wish i had just learned a trade instead and maaaaybe go to college later on part time if i became an entrepreneur or something.

What's funny is if everyone goes to college, someone still needs to work and Mickey-dees...

There are only so many jobs out there that require college. Only the best of those who go to college will get one.

[Wild Cobra]

The dirty secret is you're never going to get rich if you do what everyone else does. When everyone goes to college it loses its value.


So true.

[Wild Cobra]

This is such a crock of shit. America's college attendance rate is lower than any other modern country in the world.
And are all these kids getting good jobs?

[Wild Cobra]

I always love these trade school nuthuggers.

"You'd be much better off going to a for profit trade school like Devry!" :lmao
Thing is, if you do well in the trade school classes, you are almost guaranteed a good job placement.

[Wild Cobra]

Not only that, they're mostly public colleges and tuition is cheap as hell... Germany, Italy, France, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands... all have universities in the top 100 and in all cases yearly tuition is under $1000...
But...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but because of that, it's next to impossible;e to get any job without college...

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

And are all these kids getting good jobs?
kids are much better off in Sweeden/Germany/Canada than they are here.


Thing is, if you do well in the trade school classes, you are almost guaranteed a good job placement.
:lol agreed, being a plumber and snaking septic tanks for a living is amazing job placement

[boutons_deux]

Angrydude: "The dirty secret is you're never going to get rich if you do what everyone else does. When everyone goes to college it loses its value."

what typical right-wing bullshit

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol his quote is a strawman that doesn't even make sense. All but a few people on the Forbes 400 list have a degree, and no one is suggesting a college degree in and of itself is a guaranteed path to anything.

Everyone goes to high school as well, I guess that means getting rich as a high school dropout is easy since there's less people who drop out of high school!

[Trainwreck2100]

The for-profit college scam is something that's wrong as well

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The for-profit college scam is something that's wrong as well

:lol Republicans love it though, another example of privatization doing wonders!

[rascal]

The problem is greed.

[boutons_deux]

The problem is greed.

by the wealthy, VRWC, corporations that pay Congress, esp Repugs, to block all progress, all solutions, other than enriching/protecting the payers.

[Wild Cobra]

kids are much better off in Sweeden/Germany/Canada than they are here.

That's not what I asked... I specified jobs.



:lol agreed, being a plumber and snaking septic tanks for a living is amazing job placement
There are so many other things out there than being a plumber. IT, robotics, etc. A couple decades ago, my former employer would higher kids out of ITT and start them at $18/hr, and that was a starting wage in the 90's. Bottom of the scale, and the sky was the limit based on the individuals ability.

[Wild Cobra]

Angrydude: "The dirty secret is you're never going to get rich if you do what everyone else does. When everyone goes to college it loses its value."

what typical right-wing bullshit
Do you pay 5 figures in income tax with that infinite wisdom you have? Seven if you count the fractions of a dollar...

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

That's not what I asked... I specified jobs.
Yes, their jobs are better than the jobs of non-college educated kids in America.



There are so many other things out there than being a plumber. IT, robotics, etc. A couple decades ago, my former employer would higher kids out of ITT and start them at $18/hr, and that was a starting wage in the 90's. Bottom of the scale, and the sky was the limit based on the individuals ability.

:lmao $18 an hour
:lmao spending as much at ITT Tech as I did for my degree only to make $18 an hour
:lmao proving my point
:lmao "Education, For the Future!"

[Wild Cobra]

$18/hr 20 years ago wasn't a shabby starting wage.

You sure don't know diddly, do you...

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lmao nevermind, this is noticeably more expensive than my tuition was:

http://programinfo.itt-tech.edu/cost.pdf

:lmao $18/hour ecstasy after 6 figures of debt to pay for private trade school

[resistanze]

:lmao nevermind, this is noticeably more expensive than my tuition was:

http://programinfo.itt-tech.edu/cost.pdf

:lmao $18/hour ecstasy after 6 figures of debt to pay for private trade school

WTF, is that like an Everest type of college? I still love that Everest commercial tbh :lol

You keep procrastinating over and over. Well, maybe I'll go to school next year, maybe next semester. No, do it right now! They'll work witchu after work, or you can go before work. You can do whatever you need to do to graduate. Go talk to somebody right now, they out to help you. You spend all day on the phone anyhow!!! Why not make a call that's going to help you in the future? All you gotta do is pick up the phone and make the call. Why you makin' it complicated? It's easy.

[resistanze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcfZUC6f78g

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

WTF, is that like an Everest type of college? I still love that Everest commercial tbh :lol

You keep procrastinating over and over. Well, maybe I'll go to school next year, maybe next semester. No, do it right now! They'll work witchu after work, or you can go before work. You can do whatever you need to do to graduate. Go talk to somebody right now, they out to help you. You spend all day on the phone anyhow!!! Why not make a call that's going to help you in the future? All you gotta do is pick up the phone and make the call. Why you makin' it complicated? It's easy.

:lol it's pretty much just like Everest college/University of Phoenix/Devry

The funniest one I've seen was Donald Trump University, where people pay $30k to learn Donald Trump's "secrets to success!"

[resistanze]

:lol it's pretty much just like Everest college/University of Phoenix/Devry

The funniest one I've seen was Donald Trump University, where people pay $30k to learn Donald Trump's "secrets to success!"

:lol We have some of this private college shit in Toronto too. I went to an accredited 1 year college program after my Master's degree that had an internship (which led to my job). They have privatized versions of this program that costs 2-3x more, and without an internship (you do a 2 week 'mock' internship in class :lmao)

[Nbadan]

my friend who moved here from India after 8th grade said the math he learned in HS + calc 1 and 2 was all review for him.

Yet, these guys from India can't wait to get the fuck out of India....and buy houses in Stone Oak....for every success story you hear from India, there are 100 failures...sound familiar?

[Nbadan]

The for-profit college scam is something that's wrong as well

Charter school wouldn't be any better...

[Nbadan]

Beijing’s Bad Air Would Be Step Up for Smoggy Delhi
By GARDINER HARRIS | JAN. 25, 2014



NEW DELHI — In mid-January, air pollution in Beijing was so bad that the government issued urgent health warnings and closed four major highways, prompting the panicked buying of air filters and donning of face masks. But in New Delhi, where pea-soup smog created what was by some measurements even more dangerous air, there were few signs of alarm in the country’s boisterous news media, or on its effervescent Twittersphere.

Despite Beijing’s widespread reputation of having some of the most polluted air of any major city in the world, an examination of daily pollution figures collected from both cities suggests that New Delhi’s air is more laden with dangerous small particles of pollution, more often, than Beijing’s. Lately, a very bad air day in Beijing is about an average one in New Delhi.

The United States Embassy in Beijing sent out warnings in mid-January, when a measure of harmful fine particulate matter known as PM2.5 went above 500, in the upper reaches of the measurement scale, for the first time this year. This refers to particulate matter less than 2.5 micrometers in diameter, which is believed to pose the greatest health risk because it penetrates deeply into lungs.

But for the first three weeks of this year, New Delhi’s average daily peak reading of fine particulate matter from Punjabi Bagh, a monitor whose readings are often below those of other city and independent monitors, was 473, more than twice as high as the average of 227 in Beijing. By the time pollution breached 500 in Beijing for the first time on the night of Jan. 15, Delhi had already had eight such days. Indeed, only once in three weeks did New Delhi’s daily peak value of fine particles fall below 300, a level more than 12 times the exposure limit recommended by the World Health Organization.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/world/asia/beijings-air-would-be-step-up-for-smoggy-delhi.html

Can't breathe, but they can do math...

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lol We have some of this private college shit in Toronto too. I went to an accredited 1 year college program after my Master's degree that had an internship (which led to my job). They have privatized versions of this program that costs 2-3x more, and without an internship (you do a 2 week 'mock' internship in class :lmao)

But it's a PRIVATIZED mock internship! Much better experience than you'll get with some public libtard marxist internship program!

[baseline bum]

WTF is a mock internship? :rollin

[ElNono]

But...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but because of that, it's next to impossible;e to get any job without college...

I looked, but I haven't seen anything like that... some of those countries are struggling with youth unemployment, but that's a worldwide problem at this point, since the US has about the same or more youth unemployment than some of those countries.

[Jacob1983]

American needs to stop brainwashing kids into thinking that your life will be a piece if you do not attend college and get a degree. If that happened, America would be a million times better. Also, need to stop equating a college degree to a better life.

[baseline bum]

^ Right on Target son

[daslicer]

American needs to stop brainwashing kids into thinking that your life will be a piece if you do not attend college and get a degree. If that happened, America would be a million times better. Also, need to stop equating a college degree to a better life.

The biggest problem is America needs to stop living in the past. 30 years ago you could major in anything and would be guaranteed a middle class lifestyle and now that isn't the case.

[Thebesteva]

I see a lot of the youth 'giving up'. I'm curious to see how America overcomes this, there's no way this student loan situation will make it through the way it has this last few years. They plan on increasing loans year, after year, after year.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The biggest problem is America needs to stop living in the past. 30 years ago you could major in anything and would be guaranteed a middle class lifestyle and now that isn't the case.

Best post in this thread, tbh.

[Nbadan]

Best post in this thread, tbh.

Well.....it's kinda like racist and the GOP...not all Republican are racist but all racist are republican....most degrees don't make you rich, but most of the rich have degrees...

[boutons_deux]

The biggest problem is America needs to stop living in the past. 30 years ago you could major in anything and would be guaranteed a middle class lifestyle and now that isn't the case.

bullshit. The Usual Suspects have sucked up the vast majority of the wealth, rigged the tax system in their favor, suppressed wages for 35 years and pushed globalization that destroyed US manufacturing by 8M jobs in the 2000 alone. While oligopolies in health care and telecoms suck up wealth in the many $1000s/year with exorbitant prices for all-out shitty service. America spends $1.5T/year on the MIC and its wealthy shareholders maintaing empire.

Accepting the situation is playing into the VRWC/1%/Corporate destruction games, but there's really nothing to be done to reverse the situation. America's non-Wealthy Class is in permanent stagnation and decline having lost the Class War.

[angrydude]

bullshit. The Usual Suspects have sucked up the vast majority of the wealth, rigged the tax system in their favor, suppressed wages for 35 years and pushed globalization that destroyed US manufacturing by 8M jobs in the 2000 alone. While oligopolies in health care and telecoms suck up wealth in the many $1000s/year with exorbitant prices for all-out shitty service. America spends $1.5T/year on the MIC and its wealthy hareholders maintaing empire.

Accepting the situation is playing into the VRWC/1%/Corporate destruction games, but there's really nothing to be done to reverse the situation. America's non-Wealthy Class is in permanent stagnation and decline having lost the Class War.

I actually agree with all of that except for the part where you blame it on the VRWC. There is nothing exclusively "right-wing" about the conspiracy.

[boutons_deux]

I actually agree with all of that except for the part where you blame it on the VRWC. There is nothing exclusively "right-wing" about the conspiracy.

the VRWC is much stronger, more organized as a conspiracy, and relentless than anything centrist or left. yeah, Clinton signed the VWRC (Rugin)/Repug bills but he said he now sees he was wrong. He was also seriously weakened by the VRWC decade-long nasty witchhunt of him and his wife.

How many wealthy Dems do you think attend Kock Bros circle jerks? or contribute $Ms to VRWC orgs and Repugs?