Common Objections: The Old Testament is Full of Rape, Murder, Slavery, Homophobia

[spursncowboys]

http://www.monergism.com/blog/common-objections-old-testament-full-rape-murder-slavery-homophobia



Visitor: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then where does evil come from? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" Why don't we talk about the old testament?. Why don't you explain to me all the stories of the old testament. Oh wait that's right we don't talk about the old testament because it's full of rape, murder, slavery, homophobia, & god murdering people &making people sacrifice their Children. And why is it not in the 10 commandments that we shall not rape or own people as slaves. Please Rape all you want & treat humans & women as if they were dirt but don't say the lord's name in vein or he'll get upset.

Response: Thank you for your comment. Appreciate your participation ...
To answer your question about God's willingness ... God is willing and he has defeated evil in the Person of Jesus Christ. God Himself came in the flesh to absorb the full punishment for the evil perpetrated by humans, so that all those who are united to Him would have eternal life. That is the WHOLE POINT OF CHRISTIANITY. God is willing to do something about the evil... even deliver, love and forgive the perpetrators of it, like me. There is no greater love or willingness than this. We may undergo fleeting, momentary suffering now, but it is as nothing.compared to when this moment in the present age is past ... it will be as if it were a small scratch .. God has a purpose and uses the evil of men to achieve a greater ultimate good which outweighs them all. But many who only see the suffering of the moment, which is very real, will be unable to see past it ... but in Jesus all that is wrong will be made right.

Next, you realize you are making a moral argument against God? Please do not fail to see the irony in this. What standard are you appealing to to demonstrate to us that your morality is the right one? It seems to me that you are making up morality, as you go, according to your own self-declared authority and requiring the rest of us to abide by it. (i.e.. that somehow God is immoral for specific acts?) Immoral according to who? You? Since you seem to know what is objectively right and wrong youalready demonstrate a belief in a transcendent God who has revealed himself. Otherwise, unless you know what is actually moral and immoral, telling us how God should behave is utterly incoherent and unintelligible. Therefore, your so-called proof against God is self-defeating. For in it you acknowledge there is such a thing as objective evil that exists. In order for there to be objective evil you have to appeal to some objective standard outside of yourself that everyone is subject to. But whose standard are you appealing to that you would call objective? If there is no God you cannot call anything good or evil ... all is relative and so you cannot consistently complain about anyone else's standards no matter how much they may offend you.

Lastly, I would encourage you to learn more about Christianity and especially the Old Testament if your are going to argue against it. It seems you are quite misinformed about it and have created many straw man arguments... ideas that neither Christians nor the Jews of the OT ever believed... Learning things 3rd hand from media or classroom is susceptible to propaganda ... so if you want to debate, first represent the facts of your opponent clearly and accurately:

1) Chattel slavery (the buying and selling of captured slaves) was not only not encouraged, but was punishable by death in the OT (Exodus 21:16). What you are calling slavery in the OT was indentured servitude.. people paying off debts, contractual agreements between two parties etc... Also in Israel, they were to grant their servants release every seventh year with all debts forgiven (Leviticus 25:35--43). There were no prisons at the time and paying for your crimes through service was also a form of restitution. The isralites were actually commonly told by God to to treat outsiders well, remembering that they themselves were slaves in Egypt.

2) Sacrifice of children: You have got this backwards. God never had the people of Israel sacrifice their children. In fact, this detestable practice was one of the main reasons God had Israel remove the previous occupants from the land (Deut 18:9-14)

3) Homophobia? Homosexual practice was just one among many, many sins that were punishable by death in the old testament. So was sacrificing your son or daughter in the fire, divination, worshipping any god other than the true God .. all of these and many more were punishable by death. No one singled out homosexuality more than any of these other sins. Truth be told, we have all committed sin worthy of death, I will be the first to raise my hand to acknowledge my complicity in rebellion against God... but thanks be to God, Jesus, when I was ill-deserving, still bore the penalty for them ...
The death penalty is still active for all the sins of the Old Testament... They have not been done away with, just delayed. Jesus delays the punishment for them until He returns to rule the world. Now is a time of mercy where we call all people everywhere to repentance and faith in Christ for complete forgiveness and all who ally themselves with Him, no matter how bad, including homosexuals ... and amazingly even includes people like me who has committed much worse sins than that .... Fact is the Bible would only be homophobic if God told us to exclude homosexuals from the gospel, (while freeing everyone else from captivity). You may reject the message but it s anything but homophobic. In reality, because the message of the Bible is true, Christians are really the only ones who love homosexuals and other alienated peoples.

4) Rape was never condoned in the Old or New Testament, but punished. In OT law, the rapist, if caught and seen by witnesses, would (at least) have to pay restitution for the whole life of the woman who was raped. (btw, contrary to your assertion, the 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th commandments thouroughly cover both rape and chattel slavery).

5) Your comments about women are astounding. Women were treated better by Israel than any nation of their time. It is a myth, created out of the air, that women are treated like dirt by the God for the bible. In fact, when compared with the current culture in America, the bible accords women with the highest possible respect. In the present day, Americans routinely and openly objectify and demean women every chance they get .... and then sadly openly lie to women to make it socially/politically/legally acceptable for women to sacrifice their own children (ironically something you accused the bible of doing). All of these practices are condemend by the Bible. Women deserve our respect. Nothing less is acceptable or biblical.


Note: Remember also that the people of the Old Testament were often called stiff-necked because of their continued sin. Just because you can find plenty of examples of people in the Old Testament behaving badly does not mean God condones it. The universality of sin simply demonstrates our desperate need as humans for mercy, to which God summons and offers all in the Person of Jesus Christ.

[RandomGuy]

Ah, the lovely can of worms.

You want to open it, I can do that.

I can get to the drivel in the OP, but, give me one quick easy answer first:

Is killing children evil?

[ChumpDumper]

Ah, the lovely can of worms.

You want to open it, I can do that.

I can get to the drivel in the OP, but, give me one quick easy answer first:

Is killing children evil?
If you use bears, it's tough love.

[Trainwreck2100]

Ah, the lovely can of worms.

You want to open it, I can do that.

I can get to the drivel in the OP, but, give me one quick easy answer first:

Is killing children evil?

is letting them grow up in this obamanation not worse than killing them?

[Blake]

http://www.monergism.com/blog/common-objections-old-testament-full-rape-murder-slavery-homophobia

What's the point of posting this? Are you implying that you agree with the response?

[RandomGuy]

What's the point of posting this? Are you implying that you agree with the response?

One would assume so.

This is not new material, but probably new to snc. Believers see this, confirmation bias kicks in, and it certainly sounds reasonable enough if you don't think much about it, which most don't, as is the nature of apologetics.

It is fun to shred some of this stuff, because the intellectual contortions you have to make to either think it up or think it is logical are readily obvious.

As I said... a lovely can of worms.

You will notice that my first question got no response, and that should surprise no one. I will hammer away at it, until SNC admits that he thinks killing children is not evil. Killing children is something that he fully supports, although he doesn't know it yet.

[DeadlyDynasty]

oh stfu RG...i hate this bible beating bullshit just as much as the next person, but get off your welfare soapbox. Kids aren't being killed or starved in this country, you bleeding twat

[spursncowboys]

One would assume so.

This is not new material, but probably new to snc. Believers see this, confirmation bias kicks in, and it certainly sounds reasonable enough if you don't think much about it, which most don't, as is the nature of apologetics.

It is fun to shred some of this stuff, because the intellectual contortions you have to make to either think it up or think it is logical are readily obvious.

As I said... a lovely can of worms.

You will notice that my first question got no response, and that should surprise no one. I will hammer away at it, until SNC admits that he thinks killing children is not evil. Killing children is something that he fully supports, although he doesn't know it yet.
The same pretentious poster as always. It's funny how you operate. I can only imagine how you think you come across in your posts. How about you focus on article before trolling? Then we can play the 'personal belief" game. Blake I thought it interesting.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

http://www.monergism.com/blog/common-objections-old-testament-full-rape-murder-slavery-homophobia

lol this article is so full of shit. you can quote Leviticus and refute what he claims isn't in there. We have been rubbing the local thumpers nose in the verses for years now around here. i especially liked the part where homos punishment was being delayed and jesus was just going to get them in the afterlife. silly christian.

[Blake]

Blake I thought it interesting.

I think it's a typical crazy response from a Christian nut.


...Homosexual practice was just one among many, many sins that were punishable by death in the old testament.......

no shit. That's why the question was asked to begin with.

[RandomGuy]

The same pretentious poster as always. It's funny how you operate. I can only imagine how you think you come across in your posts. How about you focus on article before trolling? Then we can play the 'personal belief" game. Blake I thought it interesting.

I guess it sounds pretentious, but I don't find whether or not I sound pretentious to be a useful idea. The underlying truth or strength of the arguments really isn't effected by whether I may come off as an asshole occasionally. Hell, I will be a big enough man to admit I am not the most polite of people at times. I generally try not to be an asshole, and I backspace over snarky, irritated comments all the time.

I am not a troll, though. The question you regard as trolling is pretty much on topic for the OP that you seem to think is worth posting. The answer to that question is central to my response to the article.

If you want to be a pussy, and not answer it, fine. I will get to that question as central to a consideration or your posted eventually.

What is trolling, is posting some shit in an OP, and then not having the intellectual honesty to really defend it. "ha-ha, look what I posted jerks... bye". I think that would meet most people's definition of trolling. It will be interesting to see how long you stick around to defend your own OP. Let's just say I am not going to hold my breath waiting for you to respond.

[RandomGuy]

"God is willing to do something about the evil"

No, not really.

God's actions, or inactions rather, arguably favor evil.

Z1BzP1wr234

I would not consider the human sacrifice of Jesus to "be doing something" about evil, even were I to accept that it actually happened.

[RandomGuy]

"Lastly, I would encourage you to learn more about Christianity and especially the Old Testament if your are going to argue against it. It seems you are quite misinformed about it and have created many straw man arguments... ideas that neither Christians nor the Jews of the OT ever believed... Learning things 3rd hand from media or classroom is susceptible to propaganda ... so if you want to debate, first represent the facts of your opponent clearly and accurately":

It would be a lot easier if those opponents were honest, and could honestly state their own facts. This guy... is not, and does not. I would point out I have directly read the bible several times.

Let's get to his first point:


1) Chattel slavery (the buying and selling of captured slaves) was not only not encouraged, but was punishable by death in the OT (Exodus 21:16). What you are calling slavery in the OT was indentured servitude.. people paying off debts, contractual agreements between two parties etc... Also in Israel, they were to grant their servants release every seventh year with all debts forgiven (Leviticus 25:35--43). There were no prisons at the time and paying for your crimes through service was also a form of restitution. The isralites were actually commonly told by God to to treat outsiders well, remembering that they themselves were slaves in Egypt.

Hell, one pre-packaged bit of bullshit, get a pre-packaged response:


Except for murder, slavery has got to be one of the most immoral things a person can do. Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the female slaves.

Many Jews and Christians will try to ignore the moral problems of slavery by saying that these slaves were actually servants or indentured servants. Many translations of the Bible use the word "servant", "bondservant", or "manservant" instead of "slave" to make the Bible seem less immoral than it really is. While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn't mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock.

The following passage shows that slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock.


However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated.


If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. [PERMANENT SLAVERY, NOT INDENTURED SERVITUDE-RG] (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

Notice how they can get a male Hebrew slave to become a permanent slave by keeping his wife and children hostage until he says he wants to become a permanent slave. What kind of family values are these?

The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

So these are the Bible family values! A man can buy as many sex slaves as he wants as long as he feeds them, clothes them, and screws them!

What does the Bible say about beating slaves? It says you can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing.


When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.


Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)


Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Pretty much already dealt with.

Further, the "indentured servant" language used to pin this apology on, only applies to fellow Jews. If they are not jew, they have no chance of freedom:


Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property.

Personally I don't find the "indentured servant" and "slave" distinction useful. Both are immoral. If the Bible says it is ok, then the Bible is wrong, and so is "Bible God", since he is the one supposedly laying down the laws.

My moral system is superior, therefore, in at least this one regard.

[boutons_deux]

"learn more about Christianity and especially the Old Testament"

:lol

Christ was a revolutionary, a disruptive, all-inclusive love-thrower.

The OT was rendered obsolete, full of hate, vengeance, murder, genocide, eye-for-an-eye violence, the divisiveness of tribalism, etc, etc.

Christ even went violently OWS on the money-changers in the temple.

Christians OBSESSED with the OT, obviously PREFERRING it to the NT, have got Christ and Christianity ALL WRONG.

[RandomGuy]

oh stfu RG...i hate this bible beating bullshit just as much as the next person, but get off your welfare soapbox. Kids aren't being killed or starved in this country, you bleeding twat

I see you have me in the crushing grip of reason.

Well played, sir.

[spursncowboys]

It would be a lot easier if those opponents were honest, and could honestly state their own facts. This guy... is not, and does not. I would point out I have directly read the bible several times. Your response had nothing to do with disproving his truthfulness. You even said yourself that these are just different interpretations.




Personally I don't find the "indentured servant" and "slave" distinction useful. Both are immoral. If the Bible says it is ok, then the Bible is wrong, and so is "Bible God", since he is the one supposedly laying down the laws.

My moral system is superior, therefore, in at least this one regard.

Are you stating that God is real, but is wrong?
How did you get your moral system?

[RandomGuy]

Your response had nothing to do with disproving his truthfulness. You even said yourself that these are just different interpretations.

Are you stating that God is real, but is wrong?
How did you get your moral system?


"You even said yourself that these are just different interpretations."

Interpreting the Bible is indeed a problem, but far beside my point. The response is dishonest, because it leaves out the parts that directly contradict his statements. That is either dishonest or stupid. I noticed you glanced right over them and didn't address them. Here is one of the more important ones, you can give me your interpretation. There are others we can get to.


If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. [PERMANENT SLAVERY, NOT INDENTURED SERVITUDE-RG] (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)


"Are you stating that God is real, but is wrong?
How did you get your moral system?"

I am not stating Bible God is real, no. I am stating that Bible God would be wrong, were he to exist, which has yet to be demonstrated.

I have my moral system from reason and empathy, the same place you get yours. You certainly don't get your moral system from the Bible, because it isn't an actual system, although you are probably not consciously aware of this yet.

[spursncowboys]

I am not stating Bible God is real, no. I am stating that Bible God would be wrong, were he to exist, which has yet to be demonstrated. So you spent time and effort to feel a particular way, or have a particular view about something you think to be non-existent? You keep emphasizing Bible God. Are you saying you believe in intelligent design, just not the Jewish/Christian/Muslim one?


I have my moral system from reason and empathy, the same place you get yours. You certainly don't get your moral system from the Bible, because it isn't an actual system, although you are probably not consciously aware of this yet.
so cultural norms have nothing to do with your moral system? You're the lone wolf eh?

[RandomGuy]

So you spent time and effort to feel a particular way, or have a particular view about something you think to be non-existent? You keep emphasizing Bible God. Are you saying you believe in intelligent design, just not the Jewish/Christian/Muslim one?


so cultural norms have nothing to do with your moral system? You're the lone wolf eh?

I noticed you haven't bothered defending your OP, or even answered what I think is a fair question, given the material.

Do you expect me to keep answering your questions without any reciprocity?

I don't mind, but if that is really what you wanted, you should be a bit more up front about it. If you purpose is to simply pick my brain, and want to understand my viewpoint, I am ok with that.

If you want a logical analysis of the statements in the OP, I can do that as well, as I have already started to do. We may be able to find points of agreeent.

Let me know what you are trying to do here, as it isn't overly clear to me.

[Bill_Brasky]

oh stfu RG...i hate this bible beating bullshit just as much as the next person, but get off your welfare soapbox. Kids aren't being killed or starved in this country, you bleeding twat

The "is killing children evil?" question is reminding me of something some jeeb would say in opposition to abortion.

[Blake]

The "is killing children evil?" question is reminding me of something some jeeb would say in opposition to abortion.

Yeah, the jeebs that say that usually are ignorant of the bear story in the Bible.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The "is killing children evil?" question is reminding me of something some jeeb would say in opposition to abortion.


23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. 25 And he went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria.

[spursncowboys]

I noticed you haven't bothered defending your OP, or even answered what I think is a fair question, given the material.

Do you expect me to keep answering your questions without any reciprocity? I don't see why me defending the op has anything to do with the merit of the op. It's not my op. Nor my views. I found it interesting. Not much more than that.


I don't mind, but if that is really what you wanted, you should be a bit more up front about it. If you purpose is to simply pick my brain, and want to understand my viewpoint, I am ok with that.

If you want a logical analysis of the statements in the OP, I can do that as well, as I have already started to do. We may be able to find points of agreeent.

Let me know what you are trying to do here, as it isn't overly clear to me.
I don't have a game plan. If you would like to start analyzing logically, go ahead.

[spursncowboys]

young lads is a terrible translation ontop of a translation ontop of a bad translation. the word they used for children was a definition for a young man. Some say late 20's to early 30's, children would have required a guide with them outside the city. 'little' was in reference to their beliefs.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

young lads is a terrible translation ontop of a translation ontop of a bad translation. the word they used for children was a definition for a young man. Some say late 20's to early 30's, children would have required a guide with them outside the city. 'little' was in reference to their beliefs.

some say that another says another thing. you have used a bunch of qualitative descriptions. show me something the original greek and examples of it being used to describe what is obviously what you claim. something like that.

you just sound like you are giving a canned answer. KJV and NIV both say children and little children. this one says young lads but that is a worse translation? the definition you give is young man? reeks of sophistry. there are plenty other examples of god being a baby killer.

what semantic qualifications you have against the NIV this time


Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

[TeyshaBlue]

Donkeys???!!!????

That's an ender for me.

[TeyshaBlue]

It strikes me that it's probably time for a neo testament. Chritianity obviously evolved somewhat from old -> new testament.

Anyone want to take a run at NTII?

[boutons_deux]

It strikes me that it's probably time for a neo testament. Chritianity obviously evolved somewhat from old -> new testament.

Anyone want to take a run at NTII?

Christian leaders, esp the TV hustlers, who claim to know the mind of God whose voice they hear constantly, make up bullshit all the time, sort of a NT3 of oral tradition where they can make up their own, self-serving, self-enriching interpretative cherry-picking of the Bible which is supposed to be, according to them, literally true, but they're still dominated by the OT fables of hate, genocide, tribalism, magic, etc.

[redzero]

Is God good or is good God? Since the link in the OP brought up objective morality, I ask spursncowboys this: Does God decide what is moral and what is not moral, or is morality objective and not even God can change what is good and what is bad?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It strikes me that it's probably time for a neo testament. Chritianity obviously evolved somewhat from old -> new testament.

Anyone want to take a run at NTII?

Mormons beat you to it mang. Secret disappearing golden tablets revealed by angels and then lost unto history. That is genuine divine intervention.

[TeyshaBlue]

Dammit!

[TeyshaBlue]

Thx Capt. Buzzkill. :(

[Blake]

young lads is a terrible translation ontop of a translation ontop of a bad translation.

So God sucks at picking transcribers.

[TDMVPDPOY]

walking in the desert for 40days, is there really a difference walking through a ME city thats the same shithole as the desert?

[RandomGuy]

I don't see why me defending the op has anything to do with the merit of the op. It's not my op. Nor my views. I found it interesting. Not much more than that.

I don't have a game plan. If you would like to start analyzing logically, go ahead.

Fair enough, but you might have made that a bit more clear, then.

The OP is a tired bit of apologetics that verges on dishonesty. I find about as interesting in the same way excuses people use for why they commit crimes are interesting. Moral justification and gymnastics are always fun spectator sport.

[RandomGuy]

So you spent time and effort to feel a particular way, or have a particular view about something you think to be non-existent? You keep emphasizing Bible God. Are you saying you believe in intelligent design, just not the Jewish/Christian/Muslim one?


so cultural norms have nothing to do with your moral system? You're the lone wolf eh?

Anyways, on to your questions, fairly asked.

I don't spend "time and effort to feel a particular way" exactly. I spend time and effort on things that interest me, and see where the evidence leads. I don't start with conclusions and then search for things that support that.

The differentiation between "Bible God" and "god" or "God" is intentional as a distinction needs to be made, between general claims about the existance of a God or group of gods, and the claims made about a diety in the Bible.

I don't claim that there is no God. I don't have enough evidence to make that rather conclusive claim, and it would take a large amount of it to really get there in my mind. I simply have rejected pretty much all the claims about God that I have seen, as lacking any good evidence whatsoever. The burden of proving the existence of a god, pink unicorns, purple pixies, or marshmallow sprouting leprachauns is on the people claiming they exist.

There is a mountain of fail in the Bible that pretty much should lead anybody with any sense to reject the miraculous claims and claims about magic sky people until a bit more solid evidence emerges. I doubt that it is coincidental that as our ability to explore and investigate our universe has gone up, the number of things attributed to "God" has gone down.

I would say that if god had done and said the things in the bible, it would be quite insane, and arguably evil.

As for my moral system, no cultural norms don't really play a big part if at all. Cultural norms are for things like tip amounts and social pleasantries for the most part. Such a thing would hardly, and should hardly, inform someone as to what is right or wrong. Demonstrable harm is demonstrable harm. Luckily I live in a liberal democracy, so such things are generally not in conflict with what I have determined to be generally right or wrong.

[RandomGuy]

[I think this is interesting:]

5) Your comments about women are astounding. Women were treated better by Israel than any nation of their time. It is a myth, created out of the air, that women are treated like dirt by the God for the bible. In fact, when compared with the current culture in America, the bible accords women with the highest possible respect. In the present day, Americans routinely and openly objectify and demean women every chance they get .... and then sadly openly lie to women to make it socially/politically/legally acceptable for women to sacrifice their own children (ironically something you accused the bible of doing). All of these practices are condemend by the Bible. Women deserve our respect. Nothing less is acceptable or biblical.

Talk about moral relativism.


29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.


34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.


39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

Bible God answered Jephthah's prayers, and Jephthah, true to his word burned his daughter alive as a sacrifice to Bible God.

One would assume that Bible God could have stopped Jephthah, as he did with Abraham and Isaac, but no such reprieve was given.



Deuteronomy 22:28-29
King James Version (KJV)
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.


(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."


Sorry, I dont' buy the "everybody else was doing it".

It was fucking evil then, and is fucking evil now.

[RandomGuy]

http://www.monergism.com/blog/common-objections-old-testament-full-rape-murder-slavery-homophobia

Is there anything you think in there is actually valid? I mean, is there any of that bullshit excuse-making that you somehow think excuses Bible God?

Or are you trying to use me as a bullshit detector?

I can keep going on and shredding the idiot in the OP if you wish.

[ChumpDumper]

young lads is a terrible translation ontop of a translation ontop of a bad translation. the word they used for children was a definition for a young man. Some say late 20's to early 30's, children would have required a guide with them outside the city. 'little' was in reference to their beliefs.No, it's OK that God used bears to kill those people because they were older than 12!

[RandomGuy]

No, it's OK that God used bears to kill those people because they were older than 12!

As I said, watching mental gymnastics of apologetics is fun.

"triple somersault to a backflip and BAM "ladz r adultz"

[Blake]

No, it's OK that God used bears to kill those people because they were older than 12!

God must be bald and butthurt about it

[RandomGuy]

Sigh.

Looks like another thread the SNC has started and run away from. Per par.

[spursncowboys]

Anyways, on to your questions, fairly asked.

I don't spend "time and effort to feel a particular way" exactly. I spend time and effort on things that interest me, and see where the evidence leads. I don't start with conclusions and then search for things that support that.

The differentiation between "Bible God" and "god" or "God" is intentional as a distinction needs to be made, between general claims about the existance of a God or group of gods, and the claims made about a diety in the Bible.

I don't claim that there is no God. I don't have enough evidence to make that rather conclusive claim, and it would take a large amount of it to really get there in my mind. I simply have rejected pretty much all the claims about God that I have seen, as lacking any good evidence whatsoever. The burden of proving the existence of a god, pink unicorns, purple pixies, or marshmallow sprouting leprachauns is on the people claiming they exist.

There is a mountain of fail in the Bible that pretty much should lead anybody with any sense to reject the miraculous claims and claims about magic sky people until a bit more solid evidence emerges. I doubt that it is coincidental that as our ability to explore and investigate our universe has gone up, the number of things attributed to "God" has gone down.

I would say that if god had done and said the things in the bible, it would be quite insane, and arguably evil.

As for my moral system, no cultural norms don't really play a big part if at all. Cultural norms are for things like tip amounts and social pleasantries for the most part. Such a thing would hardly, and should hardly, inform someone as to what is right or wrong. Demonstrable harm is demonstrable harm. Luckily I live in a liberal democracy, so such things are generally not in conflict with what I have determined to be generally right or wrong.
Thank you for the informative response.

[spursncowboys]

Sigh.

Looks like another thread the SNC has started and run away from. Per par.
1. I'm busy

2. Did I miss something.

[spursncowboys]

Is there anything you think in there is actually valid? I mean, is there any of that bullshit excuse-making that you somehow think excuses Bible God?

Or are you trying to use me as a bullshit detector?

I can keep going on and shredding the idiot in the OP if you wish.

You haven't shredded anything though. His points remain valid. I think that there are remarkable things that the bible has in it, new and old. revolutionary ideas that everyone at that time and even thousands of years later. Pacifism, womens rights, helping out the poor.

[Blake]

You haven't shredded anything though. His points remain valid. I think that there are remarkable things that the bible has in it, new and old. revolutionary ideas that everyone at that time and even thousands of years later. Pacifism, womens rights, helping out the poor.

....slavery, killing the gay, holy bears eating children.....

[boutons_deux]

Camel Lies, too!

Archaeologists pinpoint date when domesticated camels arrived in Israel

http://scienceblog.com/70133/archaeologists-pinpoint-date-when-domesticated-camels-arrived-in-israel/#VgI1b0zk0xZMzR7t.99

[RandomGuy]

1. I'm busy

2. Did I miss something.

Apologies. I am generally not an overly patient person at times.

[RandomGuy]

You haven't shredded anything though. His points remain valid. I think that there are remarkable things that the bible has in it, new and old. revolutionary ideas that everyone at that time and even thousands of years later. Pacifism, womens rights, helping out the poor.

The bullshit about "indentured servitude" was shredded. That was some of the dumber, and more dishonest claims he made.

Since you seem to think his points are "valid" I will continue on, then.

How much do you need to admit that the guy might be full of shit? Do you care about the truth?

[pgardn]

So the OP thought this was an interesting response to some unsavory items in the OT...


I think one should just stick to some of the new archeological finds...
The stone from the time and possible interpretations.
The moral guidance stuff, check it at the door.
It tells us more about the people of the time.


Bears... I wanted some sort of walking jellyfish or a big earthworm... Just a lot of Bears?

[Sybok]

So what's the point of this thread? Does the OP have an opinion on it or is this just a repository for all articles on the web?

[spursncowboys]

So what's the point of this thread? Does the OP have an opinion on it or is this just a repository for all articles on the web?
Maybe I missed the Spurstalk reference manual. Please provide the link to the documentation on the rules and regulations of posting.

[Sybok]

Maybe I missed the Spurstalk reference manual. Please provide the link to the documentation on the rules and regulations of posting.

Just a simple question. Don't get all Barney Fife on me.

[boutons_deux]

"Christians", esp their televangelist, money-grubbing preachers, love the OT for its crazy-assed, murderous, made-for-TV drama and scariness. Sure beats that All-We-Need-Is-Love hippy freak Jesus.

12 Craziest, Most Awful Things God Did in the Old Testament

Before Jesus arrived and his divine father chilled out, the Old Testament God was, ironically, kind of a hellraiser. He was not a nice guy. He really liked killing people. And he may have actually been insane, if his willingness to randomly murder devout worshippers like Moses was any indication. Here are the 12 craziest, most awful things God did in the Old Testament, back before that wacked-out hippie Jesus softened him up.

1) Sending Bears to Murder Children

So a guy named Eliseus was traveling to Bethel when a bunch of kids popped up and made fun of him for being bald. That had to suck, and you can't blame Eliseus for being pissed and cursing them to God. But God had Eliseus' back, by which I mean he sent two bears to maul 42 of these kids to death. For making fun of a bald dude. I have to think Eliseus was looking for something along the lines of a spanking, or maybe the poetic justice of having the kids go bald, but nope, God went straight for the bear murder. But on the plus side, that pile of 40+ children's corpses never made fun of anybody again. (4 Kings 2:23-24 [3])

2) Turning Lot's Wife to Salt

Most folks know about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, two cities of sin God decided to kill everyone in instead of, you know, making them not full of sin. But this was a town that, when two angels were staying at Lot's place, gathered en masse and asked if they could rape them. I repeat: They wanted to rape angels. So they kind of had their destruction coming. Lot and his family were sent from the city before things went down, and Lot's wife looked back, and God turned her into a pillar of salt. It's generally understood that Lot's wife was looking back in a wistful kind of way at her angel-raping hometown, but the fact is there's nothing in the Bible to suggest this. Nor was Lot's family warned about looking back. Maybe Lot's wife wanted to see Sodom and Gomorrah get what was coming to it. Maybe she was thinking wistfully of the things she had to leave behind. Maybe she wondered if she left the oven on. We'll never know, because God turned her into seasoning for breaking a rule she didn't know existed. (Genesis 19:26)

3) Hating Ugly People

In what should be good news for intolerant religious conservatives, God really does hate people who are different from the norm. Of course, God isn't as worried about skin color or sexual orientation as he is about whether you're ugly or not. Because if you're ugly, you can just go worship some other god, okay? (Even though God will punish you if you do and also they don't exist.) Here's the people God does not want coming into his churches: People with blemishes, blind people, the lame, those with flat noses, dwarves, people with scurvy, people with bad eyes, people with bad skin, and those that "hath their stones broken." Given that God is technically responsible for giving people all of these afflictions in the first place, this is an enormous dick move. (Leviticus 21:17-24)

4) Trying to Kill Moses

In terms of people who God likes, you'd think Moses would be pretty high up on the list, right? I mean, God appointed him to lead the Jews out of Egypt, parted the Red Sea for him, and even picked him to receive the 10 Commandments, right? Yet this didn't stop God from trying to kill Moses when he ran into him at "a lodging place." There is literally no explanation given in the Bible for God's decision to murder one of his chief supporters. The line is "At a lodging place on the way, the Lord met Moses and was about to kill him." The only sensible explanation for this is that God was drunk out of his mind and looking for a bar fight, and you better hope that's correct because the alternative is that God's a psychopath. How was God stopped from murdering his #1 fan? "But [Moses' wife] Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son's foreskin and touched Moses' feet with it ... So the Lord let him alone." Either the sight of a very unexpected circumcision sobered God up quickly, or he didn't want to touch a dude who just touched a severed foreskin. Still, it's Moses' son who's the real victim here. (Exodus 4:24-26)

5) Committing So Much Genocide

God has killed so many people, you guys. Okay, I mean technically, God has killed everyone if you subscribe to Judeo-Christian thought, but I'm not talking about indirect methods, I'm talking about God murdering countless people in horrible ways simply because he's pissed off. God drowning every single person on the planet besides Noah and his family is pretty well known, but he also helped the Israelites murder everyone in Jericho, Heshbon, Bashan and many more, usually killing women, children and animals at the same time. Hell, God once helped some Israelites kill 500,000 other Israelites. God's crazy.

6) Ordering His Underlings to Kill Their Own Children

God is obviously good at big picture dickishness, but he also took the time to be a dick on a more personal level. Abraham was another devout man who God decided to fuck with, apparently because he knew he could. God ordered him to sacrifice his son to God (God was a fan of human sacrifice at the time). We know Abraham loved his son, so he was probably kind of upset with this, but hey, God's God, right? So Abraham tricked his unsuspecting son up a mountain onto a sacrificial altar and prepared to murder him. This story actually has a happy ending, in that right before Abraham drove a knife into his son's throat, God yelled "Psyche!" and told him it was only a test. And then Abraham received some blessings after that for being willing to kill his own child at God's whim. And all it took was the dread of being forced to kill his own child on behalf of his angry deity and, presumably, a shit-ton of awkward family dinners for the rest of his life. Abraham got off better than Jephthah, who had to follow through with murdering his daughter (burning her alive, specifically) in order to get on God's good side before battling the Ammonites. (Genesis 22:1-12)

7) Killing Egyptian Babies

Let's be completely up front: The Egyptians and the Jews did not get along. According to the Bible, the Egyptians enslaved the Jews, but the Jews had God on their side, if you kind of ignore God letting his people be enslaved in the first place. Rather getting his worshippers the hell out of there, God wanted to show those damned Egyptians what for, releasing 10 plagues that began with turning the river Nile into pure blood, and ending with the slaughter of the first-born of every single Egyptian man and animal. Now, I suppose it's possible that some, or even most of these first-born were adults who were shitty to the Israelites. But some of them had to be babies who didn't even have the time to persecute the Jews yet. And what the hell did the animals do to the Jews to get caught up in this nightmare? Were there proto-Nazi cows running around who needed to be punished for their transgressions against the chosen people? And you realize there were cats in Egypt, right? Cats who had first-born? God killed kittens. (Numbers 16:41-49)

8) Killing a Dude for Not Making More Babies

So you're a dude named Onan and you have a brother named Er. God does not care for Er, and kills him. Standard God operating procedure. Then things gets weird. Onan's dad orders Onan to have sex with Er's wife — not marry, by the way, just have sex with. This is actually pretty awkward for Onan, sleeping with his sister-in-law, and rather than give her any more kids (she had two with Er already) he pulls out. God is so infuriated that Onan did not fuck his sister-in-law to completion that he kills him, too. Now, you could argue that God demands that intercourse be used specifically for procreation, but given how much God loves killing babies and children, I don't think his motives here are exceptionally pure. (Genesis 38:1-10)

9) Helping Samson Murder People to Pay Off a Bet

More evidence that God is possibly a low-level mobster: When his pal Samson got married, he was given 30 friends, and he posed them (a completely insane) riddle. Then he made a bet that if they could solve it in a week, Samson would give them all new clothes, but if they couldn't they would give Samson 30 pairs of new clothes. Well, Samson's wife wheedled the answer out of him and then told these dudes, at which point an angry Samson had to pay up. And here's where God comes in — literally, into Samson, giving him the power to murder 30 random people for their clothes. Only a true friend would help you commit mass murder to settle a completely stupid bet. (Judges 14:1-19)

10) Trying to Wrestle a Guy, Cheating, and Still Losing

And here's more evidence that God is a drunk maniac: Jacob was traveling with his two wives, his 11 kids, and all his earthly possessions and had sent them across a river. At that moment, a guy essentially leapt out of the bushes and started wrestling. It's God! They wrestle all night, and God cannot beat Jacob, so he uses his magic God powers to wrench Jacob's hip out of its socket. But Jacob still won't let him out of a headlock until God blesses him, because Jacob has figured out who this bizarre man is. God blesses him and wanders off, presumably to go get in a bar fight somewhere. (Genesis 32: 22-31)

11) Killing People for Complaining About God Killing Them

To be fair, after God freed the Israelites from Egyptian slavery, they were extraordinarily bitchy about not instantly being in a land of milk and honey. It got so bad that God was ready to kill all of them and let Moses start the Jews over, although Moses managed to talk him out of it. But one of their more sensible complaints was that Moses was lording himself over the rest of them, which was probably true, seeing as God had given him the 10 Commandments and all that. So Moses summoned the three tribal elders who had made the complaint to a Monday morning staff meeting, but two of them didn't come. Neither Moses nor God cared for that, and God opened up the grounds beneath their people's tents, killing both tribes (God also set fire to 250 Israelite princes who'd made the same complaint). Having been well admonished that Moses was putting himself above the rest of the people with God's permission, a number of surviving Israelites were kind of pissed that Moses and God had killed so many of their fellow people to prove a point. God responded by killing another 14,700 of them with a plague. The complaints stopped. (Numbers 16:1-49)

12) Everything He Did to Job

Oh, Job. Other than a shit-ton of babies, no one had it worse in the Bible than Job, who was a righteous, good-hearted man who believed in God with every fiber in his being — which is when God decides to see how miserable he can make this dude before he gets upset. Note: This is a result of a bet between God and Satan. Also note: The bet is God's idea. He's literally just hanging out with Satan — which is kinda weird when you think about it — when he starting bragging about how awesome Job is. Satan points out that Job's pretty blessed — he's rich, he's got a lot of kids, etc., and he probably wouldn't be quite so thrilled with God if he didn't have that stuff. God downs his bourbon, presumably, and tells Satan he can fuck with Job all he wants. Satan does. He kills all of Job's children and animals, burns down his house, destroys his wealth, and then covers him in boils. Job doesn't not curse God, but he does wish he'd never been born (literally) and begs God to kill him, but no dice. This lasts a long time until finally Job wonders why a just God would be so shitty. This is when God pops up and basically tells him."Shut up, I don't have to explain anything to you." Job, having finally done something wrong, pleads for mercy, and God eventually gives him back animals and children — new ones, because the old ones are still dead. Because of a bet. That God made with Satan. For kicks. (Job 1)

http://www.alternet.org/12-craziest-most-awful-things-god-did-old-testament?paging=off&current_page=1#bookmark

[RandomGuy]

Maybe I missed the Spurstalk reference manual. Please provide the link to the documentation on the rules and regulations of posting.

So you are going to run away from it.

Shocker.

Sokay. I can keep bumping the thread so anyone who wants to see can decide for themselves.

Or, you can answer a simple question:

Is the truth important?

If we can't agree on that, we can't address your OP. A simple yes or no will do, and it isn't any sort of trick. I would say, yes, it is, and would hope you agree.

[RandomGuy]

Hmmm. SNC had three days to answer and didn't.

Can't hold it against him, I would guess he has the time to really devote much to it.

Sad, but if you are going to post a thread, you should at least make a slight effort to do something with it, if someone else takes the time to bother, IMO.