Would Dallas win a title in 2011

[RsxPiimp]

If they had this years version of Kevin Love instead of Dirk?

[Robz4000]

Love would've stat padded them out of playoff contention tbh.

[RsxPiimp]

Love would've stat padded them out of playoff contention tbh.

You think? What's the difference between 2011 Dirk and this year's Love tbh?

[Technique]

You think? What's the difference between 2011 Dirk and this year's Love tbh?

The difference is beyond the numbers. Something you can't calculate. It's in Dirk's German blood.

[Robz4000]

You think? What's the difference between 2011 Dirk and this year's Love tbh?

Dirk's lack of cancer tbh.

[Thebesteva]

That team was very inspiring that year. They weren't about dynasty, or proving they're the best of all time and all that stuff black athletes care about so much. They just wanted to win NOW. It was sad to see the Lakers lose but it was obvious they werent going to the finals 4 years in a row, the team was too tired physically.

I still think if Pau doesnt act like a vagina in the first 2 games we win that series but lose in the finals

[spurraider21]

it was a bunch of players that wanted to validate themselves with a ring... i'm glad they won it. Dirk, Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Terry, and even Peja were all guys that had played so damn well for years.

[ezau]

it was a bunch of players that wanted to validate themselves with a ring... i'm glad they won it. Dirk, Kidd, Marion, Chandler, Terry, and even Peja were all guys that had played so damn well for years.

This

[scanry]

That team was very inspiring that year. They weren't about dynasty, or proving they're the best of all time and all that stuff black athletes care about so much. They just wanted to win NOW. It was sad to see the Lakers lose but it was obvious they werent going to the finals 4 years in a row, the team was too tired physically.

I still think if Pau doesnt act like a vagina in the first 2 games we win that series but lose in the finals

No you wouldn't. The Mavs had them beat and the Diggler was beastin.

[benefactor]

Go look up Dirk's numbers for the playoffs that year. Legendary, tbh.

[Raven]

:lol of course not.

[Brazil]

yet another stupid thread

[TDMVPDPOY]

kevin love is empty stats man

the talent on the wolves team he has should be pplayoff bound, he has no excuses why that team cant even get 8th seed....

replace him with dirk and that wolves team would be making a playoff appearance

[Bill_Brasky]

:lmao and people thought Manu > Dirk was bad.....

[Rogue]

I wouldn't trade Dirk for even 3 Kevin Loves tbh.

[jimbo]

Go look up Dirk's numbers for the playoffs that year. Legendary, tbh.

Only his OKC series was legendary.

Portland: 27.3, 7.8, 3 on .575% TS (:lol Brandon "no knees" Roy going hard)
Lakers: 25.3, 9.3, 2.5 on .673% TS (Albeit lower because the Lakers sucked so much he got to sit for game 4. By sit I mean still play 31 minutes.)
OKC: 32.2, 5.8, 2.6 on .701% TS (speaks for itself)
Miami: 26, 9.7, 2.0 on .537% TS (JET was the dagger, not Dirk)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01/gamelog/2011/


I think Kevin Love could have did it. The rest of his team was stacked in a way that Loves' never will be in Minnesota. The Mavs had the 3rd highest salary that year with 86 mil. (Behind the Lakers at 90 and Magic at 89)

[monosylab1k]

Does Kevin Love have any halfcourt iso game at all? All i see him do is bomb 3's and score on putbacks. He's really good at it, but late in games can they just give him the ball to go win it, and could he score at even 1/10th the efficiency Dirk did in 2011?

[monosylab1k]

Maybe the question is, in 2011 if you swapped Love for Duncan would the 8purs have gotten their asses handed to them by M:lolmphis?

[jimbo]

Does Kevin Love have any halfcourt iso game at all? All i see him do is bomb 3's and score on putbacks. He's really good at it, but late in games can they just give him the ball to go win it, and could he score at even 1/10th the efficiency Dirk did in 2011?

Dirk's TS% in the 2011 playoffs was .609%, .612 in the regular season. Love's this season is .596. It's not like they're on different planets or anything.

[monosylab1k]

Dirk's TS% in the 2011 playoffs was .609%, .612 in the regular season. Love's this season is .596. It's not like they're on different planets or anything.

I'm talking 4th quarter with the game on the line. When defenses tighten up, does Kevin Love have an iso game that can consistently produce points? All i see is him scoring off the pass or cleaning up on an offensive rebound. Which he is dominant at, but still, does Kevin Love have any ability to do the superstar "give me the ball and get out of my way" end of game isolation?

[Bill_Brasky]

I'd love to see Love's 4th quarter stats vs what Dirk did in 4th quarters during that playoff run. Also, Dirk has never been known for his defense, but he's still ten times the defender that Love is.

[DMC]

You think? What's the difference between 2011 Dirk and this year's Love tbh?

If you're too stupid to know the difference, explaining it to you won't help.

With Dallas, you had to stop Dirk else you lose. No one could stop Dirk.

With Minny, no one has to stop Love. He can go off for 40, it doesn't matter. If they had to stop Kevin Love, they could, but since no one needs to, why bother? Let him have his points and we'll take the W.

[irishock]

Only his OKC series was legendary.

Portland: 27.3, 7.8, 3 on .575% TS (:lol Brandon "no knees" Roy going hard)
Lakers: 25.3, 9.3, 2.5 on .673% TS (Albeit lower because the Lakers sucked so much he got to sit for game 4. By sit I mean still play 31 minutes.)
OKC: 32.2, 5.8, 2.6 on .701% TS (speaks for itself)
Miami: 26, 9.7, 2.0 on .537% TS (JET was the dagger, not Dirk)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01/gamelog/2011/


I think Kevin Love could have did it. The rest of his team was stacked in a way that Loves' never will be in Minnesota. The Mavs had the 3rd highest salary that year with 86 mil. (Behind the Lakers at 90 and Magic at 89)

I hope you're not serious.

[jimbo]

I'm talking 4th quarter with the game on the line. When defenses tighten up, does Kevin Love have an iso game that can consistently produce points? All i see is him scoring off the pass or cleaning up on an offensive rebound. Which he is dominant at, but still, does Kevin Love have any ability to do the superstar "give me the ball and get out of my way" end of game isolation?

I'd think he would get assisted on most of his jump shots. We both know he doesn't have the same iso moves as Dirk does, hell only KD or pre Achilles Kobe could compare with that.

I think it's just as important that he has the ability to get to the line that Dirk did in 2011. That took his numbers from great to incredible during the OKC series. They talked about it all the time during that run because he was close to breaking that consecutive free throws record, right?

I'm talking about that because tbh this question should really be reworded as "Could the 2011 Mavs beat OKC with Kevin Love instead of Dirk?" Although, I guess you're saying that you couldn't beat the Heat without him too. (Seeing as most of Dirks' contributions during that series were in the 4th with isoball like you're saying.)

Here's the numbers for OKC at least

Game 1: 48 points, 24/24 FT, 12/15 FG. Mavs win by 9.
Game 2: 29 points, 9/10 FT, 10/17 FG. Thunder win by 6.
Game 3: 18 points, 3/3 FT, 7/21 FG. Mavs win by 6
Game 4: 40 points, 14/15 FT, 12/20 FG. Mavs win by 7.
Game 5: 26 points, 9/9 FT, 8/15 FG. Mavs win by 4.

Actually, I'll just make another post when I've got the time to go through each game. I've already typed this out, so I'll just let it sit here.

[jimbo]

I hope you're not serious.

I am, and even if I wasn't it's still better basketball discussion than just saying "Dirk can make jumpshot real good, he's unstoppable!" or repeating the same lines over and over again about Kevin Love. (To be fair, my mind isn't entirely made up on either way. I don't think Dirk was as unstoppable as everyone is making him out to be, but that's just my opinion before I've actually dug down into looking at the games)

It's not enough to say that he did tbh. You have to answer the 1) how he was able to be successful, 2) why was he able to be successful, and 3) why couldn't Kevin Love do the same? (Or do enough to win in 7)

I don't have time right now to look more in depth into it, but later tonight I can. If you can answer those questions, feel free to do so.

[irishock]

You should at least until stat padder plays in a playoff game before making your stance :lol

[RsxPiimp]

If you're too stupid to know the difference, explaining it to you won't help.

With Dallas, you had to stop Dirk else you lose. No one could stop Dirk.

With Minny, no one has to stop Love. He can go off for 40, it doesn't matter. If they had to stop Kevin Love, they could, but since no one needs to, why bother? Let him have his points and we'll take the W.

I don't watch both players so I'm not going to pretend. You're so dense tbh. I'm tired of the trolling threads, just flipping the script a little bit hoping to incite some basketball discussions.

That said, your post didn't make sense, dipshit.

[RsxPiimp]

Also, Dirk has never been known for his defense, but he's still ten times the defender that Love is.

Can someone at least, please support this claim? Lots of baseless takes are being thrown here.

[DMC]

I don't watch both players so I'm not going to pretend. You're so dense tbh. I'm tired of the trolling threads, just flipping the script a little bit hoping to incite some basketball discussions.

That said, your post didn't make sense, dipshit.

It makes sense to Americans.

[RsxPiimp]

It makes sense to Americans.

SMH

:lol DMC fashion, per par.

[DMC]

So you don't think that teams ignore certain players and just focus on shutting down the rest of the team? Love gets his points because no one is afraid of losing to them. If Love was on a powerhouse team, he'd not get those stats.

Ignored in the Dallas supremacy was Marion's defense, Kidd's leadership on the court and TC's leadership in the lockerroom, instilling a swagger into the team, a sense of entitlement that carried over to the court. Kevin Love bitches about guys who aren't even playing not being in the huddle while he's out there stat padding the game away. Dirk just went out and dominated the entire game, and left his comments to the post game presser.

[Spur-Addict]

I'm talking 4th quarter with the game on the line. When defenses tighten up, does Kevin Love have an iso game that can consistently produce points? All i see is him scoring off the pass or cleaning up on an offensive rebound. Which he is dominant at, but still, does Kevin Love have any ability to do the superstar "give me the ball and get out of my way" end of game isolation?

Yeah, K Love's Iso game is shit dick comparatively to Diggler. And he doesn't seem to have the capacity to expand that aspect of his game. You look at his offensive game and there isn't one thing he does extremely well in an isolation sense. Face up or post up, it's all meh, for his reputation. Dirk is a number one option, franchise rock, whereas Love is a 2/3 level player on a true contender. Realistically a 3. And for being such a dirty work superstar, his defense leaves a lot to be desired. To me they're not even in the same category.

[DMC]

V4NwjMP7ydU

[RsxPiimp]

Ignored in the Dallas supremacy was Marion's defense, Kidd's leadership on the court and TC's leadership in the lockerroom, instilling a swagger into the team, a sense of entitlement that carried over to the court. Kevin Love bitches about guys who aren't even playing not being in the huddle while he's out there stat padding the game away. Dirk just went out and dominated the entire game, and left his comments to the post game presser.

Put Kevin Love around that winning core and you don't think he can elevate the Mavs?

Not a fan of Love but I think he's been unfairly criticized in this forum for failing to carry a shitty team. Start with a PG who shoots 30%, a dyslexic SF in Brewer, and a chucking SG that only knows how to play a game one way :lol They're only bright spot it seems is Pek.

[Phillip]

Not even a remote chance. This is stupid if anyone believes they would come close to sniffing anything beyond the 1st round.

[Mel_13]

You think? What's the difference between 2011 Dirk and this year's Love tbh?

By the time the 2011 playoffs started, Dirk had already played in over 100 playoff games at an extremely high level. Including a trip to the NBA Finals. Love's next playoff game will be his first.

[Thread]

^It's been what, going on 5 years for me here (off & on)? Mel finally hit cogency.

Congratulations.

[MeloHype]

Apparently getting a rebound = stat padder

[Clipper Nation]

Apparently getting a rebound = stat padder
Getting a rebound =/= stat-padding

Deliberately not playing defense at all and ONLY rebounding = stat-padding

Shoving your teammates out of the way so you can get the rebound = stat-padding

[RsxPiimp]

Apparently getting a rebound = stat padder

If you don't put an effort to rebound or put any numbers at all= you suck.

[RsxPiimp]

Getting a rebound =/= stat-padding

Deliberately not playing defense at all and ONLY rebounding = stat-padding

Shoving your teammates out of the way so you can get the rebound = stat-padding

All great players stat pad. you should know that by now

[baseline bum]

Better question is if the Lakers would have won the title in 2011 if they swapped Kobe and CP3.

[Clipper Nation]

All great players stat pad. you should know that by now
Most great players actually contribute to winning, Love only cares about his stats....

[RsxPiimp]

Most great players actually contribute to winning, Love only cares about his stats....

Has this been proven by anyone who watches the Wolves regularly? Ive seen a few games, sure, but nothing in Love's approach suggests he only cares about stats. Dude is going HAM in effort.

[Clipper Nation]

Has this been proven by anyone who watches the Wolves regularly? Ive seen a few games, sure, but nothing in Love's approach suggests he only cares about stats. Dude is going HAM in effort.
I've watched him play plenty.... he plays no defense at all, partly because he's just not good at it and partly because he's so hyperfocused on padding his rebounds, which show up on the box score.... he also has plenty of games where he puts up big numbers and then disappears in the 4th quarter....

[RsxPiimp]

I've watched him play plenty.... he plays no defense at all, partly because he's just not good at it and partly because he's so hyperfocused on padding his rebounds, which show up on the box score.... he also has plenty of games where he puts up big numbers and then disappears in the 4th quarter....

Ill take your word for it.

[JohnnyMax]

Love is Lebron's height. It would be too easy for Heat defense to key on him.

[irishock]

Not even a remote chance. This is stupid if anyone believes they would come close to sniffing anything beyond the 1st round.

You have Spurs fans here who actually think a 6-year guy that hasn't made the playoffs once can beat the 2x defending champs and the big 3 Heat... with a team that went 2-7 without their star.

[jimbo]

You should at least until stat padder plays in a playoff game before making your stance :lol

Any cop-out to avoid actually thinking.

:lol boiling down basketball more than Skip Bayless

[irishock]

I don't need to think this through :lol... you simply can't compare a 13 year vet in the prime of his career, who's been thru as many wars as anybody, versus a 6 year guy with zero playoff experience. A more appropriate question would be if the Mavs win in 2011 if you replace Dirk with '08 Garnett.

You said the Mavs were a stacked team b/c they had the 3rd highest payroll in the NBA... oh boy let's ask the mid-decade Knicks how that worked out for em. :lol

[irishock]

This same question was asked on RealGM's general boards and even those proven dumbasses laughed at the OP.

[HarlemHeat37]

Love is criminally underrated on ST, tbh, as I've said many times..he has one of the most poorly built supporting casts in the league, and he plays in a system with a coach that hasn't given a fuck about coaching in a long time IMO..

The differences between Love and 2011 Dirk IMO:

- Experience..obviously..it's rare for a player to dominate an entire run in his first taste of the playoffs..

- Offensive fit with Tyson Chandler..Love spends 40% of his usage in the paint, mostly in the post, which would have hurt the Mavs on the offensive end, tbh..Chandler's defense was obviously his primary strength, but his finishing ability and screen-setting was essential for the Mavs..Dirk didn't spend too much time in the paint, he operated mostly in the mid-post area, his high pick&roll and iso game opened things up for Chandler inside..

- Dirk is a more efficient team scorer..the Mavs were not built around isolation plays, they were built around ball movement, and Nowitzki's jump shot was significantly more efficient than Love's this season, about a 7-8% difference..Love is an efficient scorer, but a lot of his scoring comes in the paint and offensive rebounding, which wouldn't have fit as well with Chandler at the 5..

- Dirk's scoring in the 4th..Nowitzki grades better as a pick&roll scorer and isolation scorer, which aided Dirk in having one of the best 4th quarter runs in playoff history during that year..Love would not be as effective in clutch time, when pick&roll and isolation becomes a necessity, particularly the latter..

- Defense..Nowitzki was a terrible individual defender at that point, but he was a competent team defender with a high basketball IQ, which Love hasn't shown yet..Love isn't as bad of a defender as perceived, though..

[jimbo]

I don't need to think this through :lol... you simply can't compare a 13 year vet in the prime of his career, who's been thru as many wars as anybody, versus a 6 year guy with zero playoff experience. A more appropriate question would be if the Mavs win in 2011 if you replace Dirk with '08 Garnett.

I'm trying to see what you actually can think through tbh. I mean if you think we're just comparing '11 Dirk and '14 Love here, you already haven't thought enough.

Who cares about appropriate questions? It's just a basketball forum. '08 Garnett isn't as interesting of a question as '14 Love. We know already Garnett is in the same caliber of player as Dirk, hell a lot of people would say he's better. The Mavs would have had by far the best defense in the league that year with Chandler and Garnett. With Caron Butler in the lineup, you've got a really complete team. Without him you've still got enough shooting to not have to worry about spacing. (still a problem area though, but the Mavs role players killed in in that area in the playoffs anyways) You lose out on Dirk's isoball abilities at the end of the game, but we also don't have Kevin McHale or Scott Brooks as the coach. The game plan shouldn't be "get to the 4th and let Dirk iso it at the end of the game" regardless.

Tbh, a better question is how about a rookie Magic Johnson? He's got as much playoff experience as Kevin Love. He hasn't been through any wars. We know in hindsight he won a championship his rookie year and ended up being clutch (for that year at least.)

[DMC]

Put Kevin Love around that winning core and you don't think he can elevate the Mavs?

Over Lebron? No.


Not a fan of Love but I think he's been unfairly criticized in this forum for failing to carry a shitty team. Start with a PG who shoots 30%, a dyslexic SF in Brewer, and a chucking SG that only knows how to play a game one way :lol They're only bright spot it seems is Pek.

Kevin Love is a facade of a decent player. He's smart as fuck, because he knows just when to leave his man for a rebound and he knows he's getting paid for stats, not for wins. The history of that team tells him as much. I'm not saying he couldn't do it, I'm saying his production thus far doesn't show me anything that says he could.

[jimbo]

You said the Mavs were a stacked team b/c they had the 3rd highest payroll in the NBA... oh boy let's ask the mid-decade Knicks how that worked out for em. :lol

:rolleyes

That wasn't supposed to be a correlation. I mentioned that the second highest was the Magic...I certainly wasn't implying that they had some kind of stacked roster either. It was supposed to be an example of Cuban's willingness to spend on quality role players vs the T-Wolves'.

I mean what bad contracts did they even have that year anyway? DeShawn Stevenson was the worst @ 4 mil. Caron Butlers would have been worth the 10.5 if he were healthy.

[RsxPiimp]

jimbo honestly is one of the most underrated poster in this board. Real solid takes.

[RsxPiimp]

jimbo honestly is one of the most underrated poster in this board. Real solid takes.

[jimbo]

Love is criminally underrated on ST, tbh, as I've said many times..he has one of the most poorly built supporting casts in the league, and he plays in a system with a coach that hasn't given a fuck about coaching in a long time IMO..

The differences between Love and 2011 Dirk IMO:

- Experience..obviously..it's rare for a player to dominate an entire run in his first taste of the playoffs..

Can't disagree, but I don't think it automatically DQs Kevin Love either.




- Offensive fit with Tyson Chandler..Love spends 40% of his usage in the paint, mostly in the post, which would have hurt the Mavs on the offensive end, tbh..Chandler's defense was obviously his primary strength, but his finishing ability and screen-setting was essential for the Mavs..Dirk didn't spend too much time in the paint, he operated mostly in the mid-post area, his high pick&roll and iso game opened things up for Chandler inside..

It would have to be run like Duncan/Splitter was in 12-13. Love works just fine in the high post w/ Chandler in the low post. Kidd gets all the space to pick and roll with Chandler that he wants. I've been watching some Love/Pekovic for a little bit now and the spacing honestly didn't seem that terrible. The worst part was Pekovic not realizing that Love was trying to post up and he'd sometimes stay in the area doing nothing. Chandler was pretty smart about moving around without the ball or at least good enough about getting out of the way.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFNksFnu210


I think spacing is only an issue if Carlisle is trying to force Love into those elbow jumpers actually. (With 2011 thinking in mind) He's shooting them just a little worse than Tim did in '13, (.426 vs .433) so it still could be effective...but his numbers don't even touch Dirk's midrange game. As far as Love's scoring being off of putbacks and offensive rebounds, it shouldn't have as much an impact as you'd think. A lot of the time he'd crash the boards after taking a shot to get that putback, so it was off of defenders not blocking him out. If the defender does block him out, I still like my chances with Tyson Chandler versus their center. It worked well enough with Pekovic.

As far as defense, I've always thought that someone like an '11 Chandler would be a good pairing with Love, but I'm not so sure anymore. In 2011 the strategy would have been fine given that Lebron/Durant barely played at the 4 back then. (and you can't just zone up like the Mavs did since both teams have enough shooting/passing to kill it) Splitter was useless because he couldn't overpower anyone on a switch or Lebron straight up, but Chandler might actually be able to take advantage of his size.





- Dirk is a more efficient team scorer..the Mavs were not built around isolation plays, they were built around ball movement, and Nowitzki's jump shot was significantly more efficient than Love's this season, about a 7-8% difference..Love is an efficient scorer, but a lot of his scoring comes in the paint and offensive rebounding, which wouldn't have fit as well with Chandler at the 5..

Just because I thought it was interesting, Dirk and Love actually take around the same percentage of long range shots. Love is just all in on the new school thinking where a 3 is better than a long 2. Dirk shot 34.4% of his shots over 16 ft and 14.2% from 3. Love is shooting 13.6% over 16 ft and 34.2% from 3.

It's like you said though, Dirk's shooting was more efficient even when accounting for Love's better shot selection. Dirk's eFG was still 1.7% higher.




- Dirk's scoring in the 4th..Nowitzki grades better as a pick&roll scorer and isolation scorer, which aided Dirk in having one of the best 4th quarter runs in playoff history during that year..Love would not be as effective in clutch time, when pick&roll and isolation becomes a necessity, particularly the latter..

I wouldn't be worried about the pick and roll scoring. Chandler was a good pick and roll scorer and distributor. He could pick up the slack in that area.

Iso wouldn't be a problem if Kevin Love would actually pass out of a double team in the post. He's got some great passing ability, he just doesn't use it enough. I'm not sure if it's vision or what, but that would hurt him especially on a team like the 2011 Mavs where other scorers would need to step up for the lack of a dominant scorer like Dirk. Not to say that Dirk was a great passer or anything, but if you're gonna have a guy shoot over a double team--you'd rather it be Dirk than Love. I think this would end up being the killer with Love on the Mavs.

It's weird saying this for a big man who's gotten a triple double and has gotten close to a few more, but from what I've watched his assists are more like to cutting wings, guys streaking down the court, or entry passes to big men. It's not your typical double team in the post -> kick out to three point shooter. I wonder how much of that is personnel/bad spacing/called plays by the Timberwolves though. I know at least earlier in the year their spacing in the perimeter looked terrible. It's been better lately.



- Defense..Nowitzki was a terrible individual defender at that point, but he was a competent team defender with a high basketball IQ, which Love hasn't shown yet..Love isn't as bad of a defender as perceived, though..


He could do his part in the zone vs 2011 teams. It's the modern NBA that would worry me with him.

[baseline bum]

A more appropriate question would be if the Mavs win in 2011 if you replace Dirk with '08 Garnett.

Don't see it even with an '04 Garnett.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

IDK, if love can shoot 40% from the field and 35% from 3 point land than.....maybe

[StrengthAndHonor]

I don't need to think this through :lol... you simply can't compare a 13 year vet in the prime of his career, who's been thru as many wars as anybody, versus a 6 year guy with zero playoff experience. A more appropriate question would be if the Mavs win in 2011 if you replace Dirk with '08 Garnett.

Experience goes a long way, but a 6 year player surrounded by a group of players that fits so well in a system is overlooked in this scenario.

Dirk was quite good in 2011, but he wasn't this unstoppable scoring machine for the entire post season. I remember him struggling against the Heat.

Love may not be able to lead that Mavs team to a title but it isn't too far fetch to think he could.

[StrengthAndHonor]

I'm not saying he couldn't do it, I'm saying his production thus far doesn't show me anything that says he could.

26. 4 PPG 13.1 RPG 4.0 APG.
28.9 PER

His highest and most efficient season to date (TS% EFG%).

That kind of production is one of the leagues best :lol

[Rogue]

Love is a stat-oriented player so it's really no surprise his stats look more impressive than his actual impact on the team. Love would be a perfect #2 but it's been proven a million times that he's the wrong choice to make a leader imho.

[DeadlyDynasty]

No, for many of the reasons already outlined here.

That being said, going forward you have to take Spurfan's opinion of Kevin Love with a grain of salt, because they already know he'll be a Laker by 2015-16 and are prepping for that. It was the same treatment Dwight Howard got when it was a foregone conclusion he was coming to LA (and for the year he was here). After he left Spurfan gave him a key to the city and are pretty much down to let him fuck their wives now. As a case study, it's fascinating how one team can so completely dominate the psyche of another team's fanbase. I might submit an article to the NE Journal of Medicine about it if I get the time.

[jimbo]

V4NwjMP7ydU

I'm trying to not go in too hard on this, but you realize this was uploaded in 2011... right? Is this really how you formulate or reaffirm your opinions? I mean I understand this is the first result when you search "Kevin Love defense" on youtube, but still...

[Clipper Nation]

26. 4 PPG 13.1 RPG 4.0 APG.
28.9 PER

His highest and most efficient season to date (TS% EFG%).

That kind of production is one of the leagues best :lol
You left out the most important stat of all: 28-29

[RsxPiimp]

You left out the most important stat of all: 28-29

Fwiw,Team record just like winning a title is NOT an individual accomplishment.

[Clipper Nation]

Fwiw,Team record just like winning a title is NOT an individual accomplishment.

It's a team accomplishment, yes, but if Love was anywhere near as good as his numbers and stans hype him up to be, they wouldn't be under .500....

[DMC]

I'm trying to not go in too hard on this, but you realize this was uploaded in 2011... right? Is this really how you formulate or reaffirm your opinions? I mean I understand this is the first result when you search "Kevin Love defense" on youtube, but still...

You do realize that 2011 was the year that Kevin Love had his highest rebounding average in his career, right? I mean, you do have the ability to make that connection... right? Surely your douche bag opinion is flexible enough to not just look at how he played this season to decide whether or not the faggot plays defense, right? That his rebounding numbers are overblown because he cheats off his man on defense, right?

[jimbo]

It's a team accomplishment, yes, but if Love was anywhere near as good as his numbers and stans hype him up to be, they wouldn't be under .500....

A prime Kobe was barely over .500. In fact, the 05-06 Lakers through 57 games were 29-28. The Timberwolves are currently 28-29. It's definitely possible for good players to be on absolutely shitty teams

[StrengthAndHonor]

I'm trying to not go in too hard on this, but you realize this was uploaded in 2011... right? Is this really how you formulate or reaffirm your opinions? I mean I understand this is the first result when you search "Kevin Love defense" on youtube, but still...


Also, statistically, the Wolves are better with Love on the court, both on offense and defense

http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/article/media_slots/photos/001/250/564/ScreenShot2013-12-11at11.36.13AM_crop_exact.png?w=650&h=433&q=85

[StrengthAndHonor]

You do realize that 2011 was the year that Kevin Love had his highest rebounding average in his career, right? I mean, you do have the ability to make that connection... right? Surely your douche bag opinion is flexible enough to not just look at how he played this season to decide whether or not the faggot plays defense, right? That his rebounding numbers are overblown because he cheats off his man on defense, right?

Again, numbers do not support your claim. Also, Love posted 11.4 win shares in 2010-11 and another 10 during the following season.

http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/article/media_slots/photos/001/250/564/ScreenShot2013-12-11at11.36.13AM_crop_exact.png?w=650&h=433&q=85

[DMC]

26. 4 PPG 13.1 RPG 4.0 APG.
28.9 PER

His highest and most efficient season to date (TS% EFG%).

That kind of production is one of the leagues best :lol

^fan of a team that doesn't play defense

[DMC]

Again, numbers do not support your claim. Also, Love posted 11.4 win shares in 2010-11 and another 10 during the following season.

http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/article/media_slots/photos/001/250/564/ScreenShot2013-12-11at11.36.13AM_crop_exact.png?w=650&h=433&q=85

lol Kevin Love slurping up in this thread

[DMC]

Also, statistically, the Wolves are better with Love on the court, both on offense and defense

http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/article/media_slots/photos/001/250/564/ScreenShot2013-12-11at11.36.13AM_crop_exact.png?w=650&h=433&q=85

So? The Wolves suck. Of course they are better with him on the court. Just because he's the best player on that team doesn't mean he's 2011 Dirk, idiot.

[StrengthAndHonor]

So? The Wolves suck. Of course they are better with him on the court. Just because he's the best player on that team doesn't mean he's 2011 Dirk, idiot.

You're really horrible when it comes to basketball discussions. You should quit posting since you can't come up with anything of value.

[StrengthAndHonor]

^fan of a team that doesn't play defense

:rolleyes Grow up.

[jimbo]

You do realize that 2011 was the year that Kevin Love had his highest rebounding average in his career, right? I mean, you do have the ability to make that connection... right? Surely your douche bag opinion is flexible enough to not just look at how he played this season to decide whether or not the faggot plays defense, right? That his rebounding numbers are overblown because he cheats off his man on defense, right?

My opinions aren't flexible enough. I don't care about 2011. I don't care about him padding rebounding numbers in 2011. I don't care about his defense in 2011. I don't care that you literally searched "Kevin Love defense" and linked the first video.

I'm not the one lying to myself, it doesn't matter to me. You live how you want to live.

Myself, I'd at least post something from this year. I can help you with that one.


But there are also times when he is no more than a traffic cone. While he's starting to curb his tendency to go for rebounding position instead of contesting shots, it is still an issue from time to time. How can he not contest this Mike Miller (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/21739/mike-miller) drive when he's coming right by him?

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/3962811/klovedefense.gif

(Just to hit on the rebounding deal you're talking about which apparently isn't a big issue anymore)

This guy from SBNation even expanded on that to actually talk about Kevin Love's defensive problems with videos highlighting his strengths and many more highlighting his weaknesses.


The bottom line:

Love is far from the only star who doesn't always hustle back on defense. Dwyane Wade (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/21883/dwyane-wade)has long been a towering figure in the I'll-get-there-when-I-get-there scene, as haveCarmelo Anthony (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/players/21501/carmelo-anthony) and, at least last season, John Wall. But Love's lack of effort has been the most glaring this year and is the main reason why Minnesota has been blitzed in transition in several losses this season. The Timberwolves are a slow team in general, but they still shouldn't be this bad at transition defense. Love is the biggest reason why they are.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/2/5/5367636/oklahoma-city-thunder-defense-breakdown-kevin-durant

[DMC]

My opinions aren't flexible enough. I don't care about 2011. I don't care about him padding rebounding numbers in 2011. I don't care about his defense in 2011. I don't care that you literally searched "Kevin Love defense" and linked the first video.

Per Game Glossary · SHARE · Embed · CSV · PRE · LINK (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#per_game::none) · ?



Season
Age
Tm
Lg
Pos
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
2P
2PA
2P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


2008-09 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/gamelog/2009/)
20
MIN (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2009.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2009.html)
C
81
37
25.3
3.9
8.5
.459
0.0
0.2
.105
3.9
8.3
.469
3.3
4.1
.789
3.4
5.7
9.1
1.0
0.4
0.6
1.5
2.5
11.1


2009-10 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/gamelog/2010/)
21
MIN (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2010.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2010.html)
PF
60
22
28.6
4.9
10.8
.450
0.6
1.8
.330
4.3
9.0
.474
3.8
4.6
.815
3.8
7.2
11.0
2.3
0.7
0.4
2.0
2.3
14.0


2010-11 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/gamelog/2011/) ★
22
MIN (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2011.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011.html)
PF
73
73
35.8
6.6
14.1
.470
1.2
2.9
.417
5.4
11.2
.483
5.8
6.8
.850
4.5
10.7
15.2
2.5
0.6
0.4
2.1
2.0
20.2


2011-12 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/gamelog/2012/) ★
23
MIN (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2012.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2012.html)
PF
55
55
39.0
8.6
19.3
.448
1.9
5.1
.372
6.7
14.1
.475
6.9
8.4
.824
4.1
9.2
13.3
2.0
0.9
0.5
2.3
2.8
26.0


2012-13 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/gamelog/2013/)
24
MIN (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2013.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2013.html)
PF
18
18
34.3
5.8
16.6
.352
1.1
5.1
.217
4.7
11.4
.413
5.6
7.9
.704
3.6
10.4
14.0
2.3
0.7
0.5
2.2
1.9
18.3


2013-14 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/gamelog/2014/) ★
25
MIN (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2014.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html)
PF
54
54
36.3
8.6
18.5
.464
2.4
6.3
.380
6.2
12.2
.507
7.0
8.5
.821
3.2
10.0
13.2
4.1
0.8
0.4
2.4
1.9
26.6


Career


NBA

341
259
32.5
6.3
13.8
.452
1.1
3.1
.361
5.1
10.8
.478
5.2
6.4
.815
3.8
8.5
12.3
2.3
0.7
0.5
2.0
2.3
18.8



What's changed in Love's game over the past 4 years to make this year's Kevin Love any better than 2011 or 2012 version?



I'm not the one lying to myself, it doesn't matter to me. You live how you want to live.

Myself, I'd at least post something from this year. I can help you with that one.

His game hasn't changed. Unless you can show that his game has changed, what I posted is valid. His stats indicate his game hasn't changed. If I can show that his greatest rebounding year was a poor defensive performance year, that's relevant to his ability to pull down rebounds this year as well.



http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/3962811/klovedefense.gif

(Just to hit on the rebounding deal you're talking about which apparently isn't a big issue anymore)

This guy from SBNation even expanded on that to actually talk about Kevin Love's defensive problems with videos highlighting his strengths and many more highlighting his weaknesses.

Oh he doesn't have defensive problems. He's a stat padder. Matt Bonner has defensive problems. Kevin Love can be in position for a rebound, he can be in position for a defensive stand, but he chooses the former because there are no stats for good defense that can be touted in a box score.


The bottom line:


http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/2/5/5367636/oklahoma-city-thunder-defense-breakdown-kevin-durant

That link doesn't work for me.

Regardless, Kevin Love chooses to slack off at just the right moment on defense so that it's not painfully apparent during the flow of the game, and his stats look monstrous. Everyone else is defending, but not Kevin, he's fighting his own dude for a rebound.

[jimbo]

If you're saying his rebounds numbers are inflated because he cheats off his man to establish position, doesn't it make sense that if his rebound numbers go down it's because he's not cheating off his man as much? Realistically, there's probably too many factors to make it that simple though.

Or if you want me to prove it another way, what evidence would convince you that he plays differently? (Alternatively, what actually convinced you that he does it in the first place?) I can try to find something for you either way.

And I think he does have defensive problems...in the same way that people said Melo had defensive problems when he was in Denver. He just doesn't care about defending even though he's capable of doing it. He does stat pad, but I think that's a lesser knock on his game vs his defense. No evidence for this at all, but it looks to me that he "knows" when he's going to get beat, so he gives up before that to try to get the rebound. I don't think he's actively trying to make his team worse, he just isn't really motivated to make it better. A good coach could fix some of these habits.