US vs Russia: Ukraine fiasco

[Big Empty]

So how big of a deal is this really? Its all over cnn and fox.

[boutons_deux]

So how big of a deal is this really? Its all over cnn and fox.

They'll hype anything to replace their normally dead boring progmming.

Fox, Repugs, right-wing hate media will be shitting all over Obama for not going to war in Russia's backyard. I hope he doesn't fire a single shot.

But I'm not sure the NSA/Black ops/DoD blood-thirsty killers will hold back.

[TE]

WW3 tbh

[dbestpro]

Hard to tell who the guys and the bad guys are, particularly when you compare our reaction to Egypt, and what happened there.

[Fabbs]

Oh the hypocrisy :lol

"You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th-century fashion, by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext," Kerry said, appearing on CBS's "Face the Nation."

[TSA]

Fox, Repugs, right-wing hate media will be shitting all over Obama for not going to war in Russia's backyard. I hope he doesn't fire a single shot.

Link please, I've seen nothing of the sort.

[pgardn]

They'll hype anything to replace their normally dead boring progmming.

Fox, Repugs, right-wing hate media will be shitting all over Obama for not going to war in Russia's backyard. I hope he doesn't fire a single shot.

But I'm not sure the NSA/Black ops/DoD blood-thirsty killers will hold back.

No. They got their fill with Iraq and Afghanistan. At least the Tparty faction.

It will be a diplomatic incompetence argument. How all of this could have been avoided if... Invoke hindsight.
The Democrats pull the same crap.

[ElNono]

don't see how Europe (who Russia has by the balls with the gas, etc) or the US (who needs the Russian routes to keep fucking around in the ME) do shit about this.

Maybe they do some token shit like take the Nyets away from Prokorov and call it a day.

[TDMVPDPOY]

no oil no care

[SupremeGuy]

They'll hype anything to replace their normally dead boring progmming.

Fox, Repugs, right-wing hate media will be shitting all over Obama for not going to war in Russia's backyard. I hope he doesn't fire a single shot.

But I'm not sure the NSA/Black ops/DoD blood-thirsty killers will hold back.lol Yeah, letting an Eastern European country just invade whatever other Eastern European country they want has always worked out fantastically for the World.

You're going to have your wish though, Obama cannot and will not do anything about the threat of Russian expansion. He isn't anything close to what we need as a leader.

[Technique]

lol Yeah, letting an Eastern European country just invade whatever other Eastern European country they want has always worked out fantastically for the World.


That's far from the truth. Ukraine is a sister country to Russia. In fact, the region of Crimea is filled with Russian built cities before it was given to the Ukrainian oblast in 1954 which at the time was one country (CCCP). Considering that over 50% of the population in Ukraine are Ukranian citizens that are Russian. Russia has every legitimate reason to protect it's key interests in the historically intertwined nation of Ukraine.

[angrydude]

To the neocon mind the answer to all foreign relations problems is the same:

North African civil war: WAR!
Syrian civil war: WAR!
Iraq just sitting there minding its own business: WAR!
9-11 by Saudi Arabian agents: WAR with Afghanistan!
Iran just sitting there: WAR (handwriting is on the wall)
European country invaded during civil war by country other than US : WAR!

For once I'm glad for Obama's incompetence.

[Jacob1983]

Let the Russians and Ukrainians kill each other. Murica should stay out of it.

[The Reckoning]

it's their own issue to deal with. if they dislike their government enough to violently revolt, they should be willing to accept the baggage that comes with it.

[boutons_deux]

Link please, I've seen nothing of the sort.

that's because you right-wingers are fucking ignorant, esp the gun fellators.

Pressure Rising as Obama Works to Rein In Russia

“Create a democratic noose around Putin’s Russia,” urged Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina.

“Revisit the missile defense shield,” suggested Senator Marco Rubio, Republican of Florida.

“Cancel Sochi,” argued Representative Mike Rogers, the Michigan Republican who leads the Intelligence Committee, referring to the Group of 8 summit meeting to be hosted by President Vladimir V. Putin.

Senator Bob Corker of Tennessee, the top Republican on the Foreign Relations Committee, has already devised language to serve as the basis for possible bipartisan legislation outlining a forceful response, including sanctions against Russia and economic support for Ukraine.

Mr. Corker traced the origins of Mr. Putin’s brash invasion to September when, in the face of bipartisan opposition in Congress, Mr. Obama pulled back from plans to conduct an airstrike on Syria in retaliation for a chemical-weapons attack on civilians. Instead, he accepted a Russian offer to work jointly to remove the chemical weapons.

“Ever since the administration threw themselves into the arms of Russia in Syria to keep from carrying out what they said they would carry out, I think, he saw weakness,” Mr. Corker said of Mr. Putin. “These are the consequences.”

even Republicans who opposed Mr. Obama in Syria were pushing for a hard line against Mr. Putin.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/world/europe/pressure-rising-as-obama-works-to-rein-in-russia.html?from=homepage

etc, etc, etc. Fox, Limpballs, Beck, Malkin, etc will all be screaming Obama's got no dick, hilarious shit like Obama crosses his legs while Putin sits spread eagle.


Republicans hit Obama foreign policy over Ukraine

http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2014/03/02/obama-russia-putin-ukraine-crimea/5944265/

GOP, Conservatives Intensify Calls for Strong Action in Ukraine
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ukraine-russia-conservatives-putin/2014/03/01/id/555507#ixzz2uthiSgrc

etc, etc, etc. No matter what Obama does or doesn't do, the Fox Repug Lie Machine will be against it.

[Fabbs]

boutons

[boutons_deux]

tea bagger/Repug intellectual giant chimes in

Palin says ‘I-Told-Ya-So’ on Ukraine prediction: ‘I could see this one from Alaska’
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/fox_palin_cruz_130922c-615x345.jpg

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/03/palin-says-i-told-ya-so-on-ukraine-prediction-i-could-see-this-one-from-alaska/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

[boutons_deux]

What do you blood-thirsty, murderous non-combattants want Obama to do? rain down cruise missiles? invade Crimea?

Western Europe is dependent on (compromised by) on Russian natural gas, but who care about Old Europe?

[boutons_deux]

Russia Gas Threat Shows Putin Using Pipes to Press Ukraine

OAO Gazprom (OGZD) (http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/OGZD:LI)’s threat to end natural gas discounts for Ukraine adds to the financial burden on the near-bankrupt government in Kiev and makes Europe’s energy supply part of the escalating crisis.

Russia (http://topics.bloomberg.com/russia/)’s gas-export monopoly said on March 1 it may end last year’s agreement to supply Ukraine at a cheaper rate unless it’s paid $1.55 billion owed for fuel. It’s the first time since the overthrow of pro-Moscow president Viktor Yanukovych (http://topics.bloomberg.com/viktor-yanukovych/) last month that Russia has directly used its position as Ukraine’s dominant energy supplier to pressure the new regime.

Vladimir Putin (http://topics.bloomberg.com/vladimir-putin/), who has permission from Russian lawmakers to deploy troops to Ukraine, has repeatedly used gas to strong-arm his western neighbor, cutting off supplies twice since 2006 over payment disputes. Because Ukraine hosts a network of Soviet-era pipelines that carry more than half of Russia’s gas exports to the European Union, any disruption of supply puts the region’s energy security at risk.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-02/russia-gas-threat-shows-putin-using-pipelines-to-press-ukraine.html

USA, compromised by its dependence on Saudi Arabian oil, stayed quiet while SA brutally crushed the Arab Spring in Bahrain.

Why shouldn't USA/Europe stay quiet now while Russia crushes the Ukraine?

[boutons_deux]

Russia–Ukraine gas disputes


The Russia–Ukraine gas disputes refer to a number of disputes between Ukrainian oil and gas company Naftohaz Ukrainy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naftohaz_Ukrainy) and Russian gas supplier Gazprom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazprom) overnatural gas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas) supplies, prices, and debts. These disputes have grown beyond simple business disputes into transnational political issues—involving political leaders from several countries—that threaten natural gas supplies in numerous European countries dependent on natural gas imports from Russian suppliers, which are transported through Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine). Russia provides approximately a quarter of the natural gas consumed in the European Union; approximately 80% of those exports travel through pipelines across Ukrainian soil prior to arriving in the EU.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-BBC182009-1)

A serious dispute began in March 2005 over the price of natural gas supplied and the cost of transit. During this conflict, Russia claimed Ukraine was not paying for gas, but diverting it intended to be exported to the EU from the pipelines. Ukrainian officials at first denied the accusation,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-bbc010106-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-bbc020106-3) but later Naftohaz admitted that natural gas intended for other European countries was retained and used for domestic needs. The dispute reached a crescendo on 1 January 2006, when Russia cut off all gas supplies passing through Ukrainian territory.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-bbc240106-4) On 4 January 2006, a preliminary agreement between Russia and Ukraine was achieved, and the supply was restored. The situation calmed until October 2007 when new disputes began over Ukrainian gas debts. This led to reduction of gas supplies in March 2008. During the last months of 2008, relations once again became tense when Ukraine and Russia could not agree on the debts owed by Ukraine.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-November-5)

In January 2009, this disagreement resulted in supply disruptions in many European nations, with eighteen European countries reporting major drops in or complete cut-offs of their gas supplies transported through Ukraine from Russia.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-reutersfactbox712009-6)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-7) In September 2009 officials from both countries stated they felt the situation was under control and that there would be no more conflicts over the topic,[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-Reuters792009-8)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-9) at least until the Ukrainian 2010 presidential elections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_2010_presidential_elections).[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-10) However, in October 2009, another disagreement arose about the amount of gas Ukraine would import from Russia in 2010. Ukraine intended to import less gas in 2010 as a result of reduced industry needs because of its economic recession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Ukrainian_financial_crisis); however, Gazprom insisted that Ukraine fulfill its contractual obligations and purchase the previously agreed upon quantities of gas.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-Kyiv_Post8102009-11)

On June 8, 2010, a Stockholm court of arbitration ruled Naftohaz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naftohaz) of Ukraine must return 12.1 billion cubic metres (430 billion cubic feet) of gas to RosUkrEnergo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RosUkrEnergo), aSwiss-based (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland) company in which Gazprom controls a 50% stake. Russia accused Ukrainian side of siphoning gas from pipelines passing through Ukraine in 2009.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-12)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-13) Several high-ranking Ukrainian officials stated the return "would not be quick".[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes#cite_note-14)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Major_russian_gas_pipelines_to_europe.png/573px-Major_russian_gas_pipelines_to_europe.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes

[pgardn]

What do you blood-thirsty, murderous non-combattants want Obama to do? rain down cruise missiles? invade Crimea?

Western Europe is dependent on (compromised by) on Russiqn natural gas, but who care about Old Europe?

If one is looking for escalation, make Ukraine a member of NATO after elections are held. The Russians have already violated their part of the agreement when Ukraine got independence in the 90s.

Russia can be made to suffer economically as well, it's just that Europe will also, which means we will as well.
Russia would take a much harder hit though. It's a calculated risk. Putin can swim in freezing water, the Russian people are tougher and can endure economic hardship, the West can't handle eating cabbage every day.

[Winehole23]

Russia would take a much harder hit though. It's a calculated risk. Putin can swim in freezing water, the Russian people are tougher and can endure economic hardship, the West can't handle eating cabbage every day.


I'm here a week now... waiting for a mission... getting softer. Every minute I stay in this room, I get weaker, and every minute Charlie squats in the bush, he gets stronger. Each time I looked around the walls moved in a little tighter.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFsMguGrUVo


counterpoint:
Yet the EU might hold stronger cards than the Russians think. Russian propaganda about depraved Europe conceals an intimate relationship. Tourism in the European Union is a safety valve for a large Russian middle class that takes its cues in fashion and pretty much everything else from European culture. Much of the Russian elite has sent its children to private schools in the European Union or Switzerland. Beyond that, since no Russian of any serious means trusts the Russian financial system, wealthy Russians park their wealth in European banks. In other words, the Russian social order depends upon the Europe that Russian propaganda mocks. And beneath hypocrisy, as usual, lies vulnerability.http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116812/how-europe-should-respond-russian-intervention-ukraine

[Winehole23]

Most of the Crimea is basically a desert, with less annual rainfall than Los Angeles. It is impossible to sustain its 2 million people—including agriculture and the substantial tourist industry—without Ukrainian water. Current supplies aren’t even enough. In Sevastopol, home of the Black Sea Fleet, households get water only on certain days. In fact, on Feb. 19, when snipers were shooting protesters on the streets of Kiev, Sevastopol applied for $34 million in Western aid (note the irony) to improve its water and sewer systems.


The Crimea’s dependence on Ukraine for nearly all of it electricity makes it equally vulnerable to nonviolent retaliation. One suggestion making the rounds of the Ukrainian Internet is that the mainland, with warning, shut off the power for 15 minutes. It may not normalize the situation, but it could give Moscow pause. Of course, Russia could retaliate by cutting off Ukrainian gas supplies, but that would mean cutting off much of Europe as well. Besides, Ukrainians proved this winter that they aren’t afraid of the cold, and spring is coming.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/03/vladimir_putin_s_crimean_mistake_the_russian_presi dent_is_miscalculating.html

[Winehole23]

But the only reason that Crimea had a Russian majority was because Josef Stalin deported the native Crimean Tatars en masse to Central Asia after World War II and resettled Russians to replace them. same

[Winehole23]

Lithuania has already asked for Article IV consultations under the NATO Treaty in response to a clear threat to its security.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/putins-reckless-ukraine-gambit-104125.html#ixzz2uv5tIh36

[Winehole23]

You're going to have your wish though, Obama cannot and will not do anything about the threat of Russian expansion. He isn't anything close to what we need as a leader.


Paul Saunders takes aim (http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/the-five-most-abused-foreign-policy-cliches-9978) at five of the most abused words and phrases in foreign policy debate. Here he rejects “isolationism”:

What proponents of an activist (as opposed to a necessarily active) foreign policy are trying to conceal is how they have thoroughly warped the definition of another word—leadership—to make it nearly synonymous with the use of force. Thus, they argue, America is a leader when it is prepared to use force and is isolationist when it isn’t. Fixing U.S. foreign policy requires not only dispensing with theatrical critiques of isolationist straw men, but building a sophisticated understanding of international leadership in its diverse forms.
I would add that the abuse of “leadership” as a concept is in some ways even more obnoxious and misleading than the reliance on the “isolationist” slur. It’s true that hawks typically assume that real “leadership” requires the use of force or at least the threat to use force, but it can also function as a generic euphemism for U.S. hegemony. In this usage, there is really only one kind of international leadership that qualifies, and this is one in which the U.S. is dominant, preeminent, and preoccupied with policing the globe. This tends to view leadership more as an exercise in giving orders and dictating terms.


The word also serves as an all-purpose, nebulous placeholder as something that can be demanded and whose absence can be lamented without having to make a coherent argument. Calling for “more leadership” can be a way to demand an aggressive and militarized policy without owning up to what one is demanding, or it can be a way to criticize existing policy decisions without having to explain what ought to be done instead. As with its ugly cousin “resolve,” one can always get away with insisting that a particular president isn’t showing enough “leadership” in the world, because there is no way to measure these things and no way for the complaint be remedied. Because it is so ill-defined and frequently abused, it can be applied to every issue without even having to think about the specific details. “Leadership” is always the correct response, and “leadership” can’t fail, because it means everything and nothing at the same time.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/the-cliches-of-leadership-and-resolve/

[RandomGuy]

So how big of a deal is this really? Its all over cnn and fox.

Fairly significant.

Russian invaded Georgia a few years ago, but that was a tiny country that did not border Europe.

Ukraine is a LOT larger, and borders the EU and NATO.

The issue is to which "side" Ukraine decides to pick, closer ties to the EU or closer ties to Russia.

Putin is very old-school, "us vs. them" and views Ukraine as decidedly in the Russian sphere of influence. He is rattling sabres and has occupied a (minor) part of Ukraine, a step towards doing to Ukraine the same thing he did to Georgia.

The problem is that most ethnic Ukrainians view themselves as closer to Europe than Russia, and they essentially overthrew the kleptocrat piece of shit that was running the country.

Depending on how it is handled, this could escalate rather rapidly.

[boutons_deux]

Neocons and the Ukraine Coup

Exclusive: American neocons helped destabilize Ukraine and engineer the overthrow of its elected government, a “regime change” on Russia’s western border. But the coup – and the neo-Nazi militias at the forefront – also reveal divisions within the Obama administration, reports Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

More than five years into his presidency, Barack Obama has failed to take full control over his foreign policy, allowing a bureaucracy shaped by long years of Republican control and spurred on by a neocon-dominated U.S. news media to frustrate many of his efforts to redirect America’s approach to the world in a more peaceful direction.

But Obama deserves a big dose of the blame for this predicament because he did little to neutralize the government holdovers and indeed played into their hands with his initial appointments to head the State and Defense departments, Hillary Clinton, a neocon-leaning Democrat, and Robert Gates, a Republican cold warrior, respectively.


http://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/victoria-nuland-300x225.jpg (http://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/victoria-nuland.jpg)Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland.



Even now, key U.S. diplomats are more attuned to hard-line positions than to promoting peace. The latest example is Ukraine where U.S. diplomats, including Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt, are celebrating the overthrow of an elected pro-Russian government.

Occurring during the Winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia, the coup in Ukraine dealt an embarrassing black eye to Russian President Vladimir Putin, who had offended neocon sensibilities by quietly cooperating with Obama to reduce tensions over Iran and Syria, where the neocons favored military options.

Over the past several weeks, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych was undercut by a destabilization campaign encouraged by Nuland and Pyatt and then deposed in a coup spearheaded by neo-Nazi militias. Even after Yanukovych and the political opposition agreed to an orderly transition toward early elections, right-wing armed patrols shattered the agreement and took strategic positions around Kiev.

Despite these ominous signs, Ambassador Pyatt hailed the coup as “a day for the history books.” Most of the mainstream U.S. news media also sided with the coup, with commentators praising the overthrow of an elected government as “reform.” But a few dissonant reports have pierced the happy talk by noting that the armed militias are part of the Pravy Sektor, a right-wing nationalist group which is often compared to the Nazis.

Thus, the Ukrainian coup could become the latest neocon-initiated “regime change” that ousted a target government but failed to take into
account who would fill the void.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/23/neocons-and-the-ukraine-coup/

Why would Repug neo-cons be unhappy with neo-Nazis running Ukraine?

Repugs are right-wing authortarian fascist reactionaries, they'd be right a home under neo-Nazi rulers.

[RandomGuy]

That's far from the truth. Ukraine is a sister country to Russia. In fact, the region of Crimea is filled with Russian built cities before it was given to the Ukrainian oblast in 1954 which at the time was one country (CCCP). Considering that over 50% of the population in Ukraine are Ukranian citizens that are Russian. Russia has every legitimate reason to protect it's key interests in the historically intertwined nation of Ukraine.

No, not really.

Unless one defines "russian interests" as propping up corrupt piece of shit governments when their populations have had enough.

Russia has some interests in Ukraine, but those interests are ill-served by waving yet another tin-pot dictator ally as a rallying cry. They already look like evil fucksticks for propping up Assad.

[Wild Cobra]

If one is looking for escalation, make Ukraine a member of NATO after elections are held. The Russians have already violated their part of the agreement when Ukraine got independence in the 90s.

Russia can be made to suffer economically as well, it's just that Europe will also, which means we will as well.
Russia would take a much harder hit though. It's a calculated risk. Putin can swim in freezing water, the Russian people are tougher and can endure economic hardship, the West can't handle eating cabbage every day.
I haven't been following this, but I heard something interesting. Ukraine consists of 17% Russians, and the claim I heard is they are not being treated well by the Ukraine. True or not, it is one reason being used. There is also something about a port on the Baltic.

Anyone know?

If this is true, it seems to me that the Ukraine needs to treat all their citizens equal. Ar least that [get] this excuse off the table.

[RandomGuy]

a coup spearheaded by neo-Nazi militias.

I would hardly call the elected legislature holding the executive responsible for police firing on civilians, and mass protests as "a coup spearheaded by neo-Nazi militias."

I don't mind looking into it, but this doesn't pass the initial "smell-test".

[RandomGuy]

the claim I heard is they are not being treated well by the Ukraine. True or not, it is one reason being used. There is also something about a port on the Baltic.

Anyone know?

If this is true, it seems to me that the Ukraine needs to treat all their citizens equal. Ar least that this excuse off the table.

THe claim is likely a fabricated reason, almost identical to the excuse used to invade Georgia.

The port is the main black sea port used by the Russian navy.

[Wild Cobra]

THe claim is likely a fabricated reason, almost identical to the excuse used to invade Georgia.

The port is the main black sea port used by the Russian navy.
Really hard to know, relying on biased media. Not knowing anyone there to trust. I know a guy from the area, bit he came over here at a young age. I should ask if he has ties over their and knows.

[RandomGuy]

Russia–Ukraine gas disputes


In January 2009, this disagreement resulted in supply disruptions in many European nations, with eighteen European countries reporting major drops in or complete cut-offs of their gas supplies transported through Ukraine from Russia.



Obama administration approves rare LNG export facility near Texas

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/blog/drilling-down/2014/02/obama-administration-approves-rare-lng-export.html?page=all

Russia is going to find that its dwindling ability to supply natural gas to Europe is going to leave it in a far weaker position than Putin lets on, or even realizes.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9657

PDF report on the aging russian fields:
http://www.osw.waw.pl/sites/default/files/prace_39_en.pdf
Pages 5 and 6, with the thesis pretty much sums it up. It is not a rosy picture.

Couple this with Russia's demographic implosion, its military decay, and overall capital and brain drain, and Russia's hand is going to be a lot weaker than one might think.

[RandomGuy]

Really hard to know, relying on biased media. Not knowing anyone there to trust. I know a guy from the area, bit he came over here at a young age. I should ask if he has ties over their and knows.

A good bullshit detector will get past bias. You use that crutch too much.

[Wild Cobra]

A good bullshit detector will get past bias. You use that crutch too much.
Your bullshit detector is very often biased. You realize that don't you?

Are you suggesting you know as fact?

[RandomGuy]

Fox, Repugs, right-wing hate media will be shitting all over Obama for not going to war in Russia's backyard. I hope he doesn't fire a single shot.


Link please, I've seen nothing of the sort.

ROFL... really, you don't think the knee-jerk hyterical Obama bashing machine isn't going to kick into gear.

Fuck, I will look after I type this sentence, but if you don't know what I am going to find, then you aren't paying attention.



President Obama prefers public speeches. President Putin prefers to let his actions speak for him.

Obama talks. Putin takes.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/28/obama-to-speak-on-ukraine-crisis/


Krauthammer on Ukraine: 'Everybody is shocked by the weakness of Obama's statement'
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/28/krauthammer-on-ukraine-everybody-is-shocked-by-weakness-obama-statement/

Didn't take much.

Need more links of dipshit conservatives saying dipshit knee-jerk things?

[boutons_deux]

Obama administration approves rare LNG export facility near Texas

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/blog/drilling-down/2014/02/obama-administration-approves-rare-lng-export.html?page=all

Russia is going to find that its dwindling ability to supply natural gas to Europe is going to leave it in a far weaker position than Putin lets on, or even realizes.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/9657

PDF report on the aging russian fields:
http://www.osw.waw.pl/sites/default/files/prace_39_en.pdf
Pages 5 and 6, with the thesis pretty much sums it up. It is not a rosy picture.

Couple this with Russia's demographic implosion, its military decay, and overall capital and brain drain, and Russia's hand is going to be a lot weaker than one might think.

Russian bonds are paying 7% today, its stock market :lol cratering.

If the ROW puts the financial screws to Russia, like it did to Iran, then maybe Putin will change path, but he's US right-wingers' idolized Macho Man, sits with his legs apart, like a Real Man.

[RandomGuy]

Your bullshit detector is very often biased. You realize that don't you?

Are you suggesting you know as fact?

I am far better at seeing through various types of bias, including my own, than you will ever be. You take the cake when it comes to being a slave to confirmation bias, and the fact that you can't even admit that you have such, screams volumes.

No, I don't know as a "fact". But given the past history of that claim, one would be well advised to take it ("ethnic Russians are being oppressed")with a great deal of skepticism, unless some significant evidence emerges.

[Wild Cobra]

That's far from the truth. Ukraine is a sister country to Russia. In fact, the region of Crimea is filled with Russian built cities before it was given to the Ukrainian oblast in 1954 which at the time was one country (CCCP). Considering that over 50% of the population in Ukraine are Ukranian citizens that are Russian. Russia has every legitimate reason to protect it's key interests in the historically intertwined nation of Ukraine.
I don't agree. They succeeded from the CCCP when the wall fell, and wish top remain independent. They need to shed in the world view, any propaganda as to why Russia needs to reabsorb them. It appears they have a very good Wheat industry, one of the things Oregon exports to Russia. They control a key commodity. Wars are often fought over such things.

[Wild Cobra]

I am far better at seeing through various types of bias, including my own, than you will ever be. You take the cake when it comes to being a slave to confirmation bias, and the fact that you can't even admit that you have such, screams volumes.

No, I don't know as a "fact". But given the past history of that claim, one would be well advised to take it ("ethnic Russians are being oppressed")with a great deal of skepticism, unless some significant evidence emerges.
That's your bias speaking again. You see, you did again, what you always do. I bring up a point I don't know, ask others about, and you assume it is my belief.

Your confirmation bias claims... You are the one full of it.

[Wild Cobra]

I haven't been following this, but I heard something interesting. Ukraine consists of 17% Russians, and the claim I heard is they are not being treated well by the Ukraine. True or not, it is one reason being used. There is also something about a port on the Baltic.

Anyone know?

If this is true, it seems to me that the Ukraine needs to treat all their citizens equal. Ar least that [get] this excuse off the table.

[RandomGuy]

That's your bias speaking again. You see, you did again, what you always do. I bring up a point I don't know, ask others about, and you assume it is my belief.

Your confirmation bias claims... You are the one full of it.

I didn't say it was your belief, I merely addressed it.

Please show what I said that implied you believed it.

[Blake]

I haven't been following this, but I heard something interesting. Ukraine consists of 17% Russians, and the claim I heard is they are not being treated well by the Ukraine. True or not, it is one reason being used. There is also something about a port on the Baltic.

Anyone know?

If this is true, it seems to me that the Ukraine needs to treat all their citizens equal. Ar least that [get] this excuse off the table.

I've heard once that a Russian employee was fired from a Ukranian MkDonalds for giving away money to a robber at gunpoint.

[Blake]

I've also heard that it's still better to be a Russian in the Ukraine than to be an American in Portland, Oregon.

[RandomGuy]

THe claim is likely a fabricated reason




Are you suggesting you know as fact?

I am suggesting your reading comprehension sucks.

I said "most likely". Most people would rightfully assume I was giving a statement of probability, rather than certainty.

You asked, I stated my opinion, and how confident I was of that analysis. I leave room for error that there may be some evidence to support it, as many propaganda bits tend to have some minor grain of truth to them. Given the history of the claim, vis a vis Georgia, and what the claim was used to justify, one should set a high level of evidence before accepting it.

Notice I said "one", being generally applicable to anyone. What ever the fuck you believe is up to you. I hope that is clear enough.

[boutons_deux]

The unsolvable conflict is that ethnic Russians (leftovers from the USSR occupation) in Ukraine want to be aligned with, even part of Russia, while the Ukranians want to continue escaping from Russian domination to align with, join Western Europe.

I think partition of Ukraine is best.

[Wild Cobra]

I've also heard that it's still better to be a Russian in the Ukraine than to be an American in Portland, Oregon.

The adults are trying to have a serious conversation. You are now on IGNORE.

[Wild Cobra]

I didn't say it was your belief, I merely addressed it.

Please show what I said that implied you believed it.

The simple fact that you accuse me of confirmation bias. Your intent is clear.

[Wild Cobra]

RG.

Have you seen this interesting development:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26410431

[Blake]

The adults are trying to have a serious conversation. You are now on :cry IGNORE :cry.

You're not intelligent enough to have an adult conversation with. I prefer to watch you meltdown like a12 year old.

[TeyshaBlue]

The adults are trying to have a serious conversation. You are now on IGNORE.

Tasty, tasty Vitamin I.

[TSA]

ROFL... really, you don't think the knee-jerk hyterical Obama bashing machine isn't going to kick into gear.

Fuck, I will look after I type this sentence, but if you don't know what I am going to find, then you aren't paying attention.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/28/obama-to-speak-on-ukraine-crisis/


Krauthammer on Ukraine: 'Everybody is shocked by the weakness of Obama's statement'
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/28/krauthammer-on-ukraine-everybody-is-shocked-by-weakness-obama-statement/

Didn't take much.

Need more links of dipshit conservatives saying dipshit knee-jerk things?

Still don't see anything about going to war with Russia.

[Wild Cobra]

Tasty, tasty Vitamin I.
Do you have anything to add to this debate, or are you just going to be a jackass?

[Wild Cobra]

Here is another interesting article:

http://www.dw.de/sevastopol-the-ukrainian-port-on-russias-side/a-17463374

[TeyshaBlue]

Do you have anything to add to this debate, or are you just going to be a jackass?

I'll take jackass for $300, Alex. Go sit at the bot table with boutons.

[TeyshaBlue]

Still don't see anything about going to war with Russia.

You have to ignore the lazy conflation of Fox News with mainstream conservatism. RG, like Tom Tomorrow, struggles with this occasionally.

[angrydude]

Serious question: Unless Russia is planning on annexing Ukraine, how is this any different than what the US does all over the world?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You have to ignore the lazy conflation of Fox News with mainstream conservatism. RG, like Tom Tomorrow, struggles with this occasionally.

It is by far the largest mouthpiece to the GOP and its president is GOP old guard. We are very lucky to have conservatives such as yourself that demand a higher standard but it still is what it is.

[boutons_deux]

the "I'm A Pure, Holy Conservative" Bullshit :lol

Same bullshit a libertarian fantasists.

[TeyshaBlue]

It is by far the largest mouthpiece to the GOP and its president is GOP old guard. We are very lucky to have conservatives such as yourself that demand a higher standard but it still is what it is.

Im still waiting on the inevitable GOP schism that I felt was imminent a couple of years ago. If the fucking Tea Party would step up their game, we could get this ball rolling.

[TeyshaBlue]

the "I'm A Pure, Holy Conservative" Bullshit :lol

Same bullshit a libertarian fantasists.

Gfy moonbat.

[Winehole23]

Geopolitically and ideologically, the West’s frontier has moved further east than almost anyone could have imagined a couple of decades ago. The bad news is that it has left the countries just beyond that frontier, the ones most eager to be connected to the West, terribly vulnerable. During the Cold War, Poland, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia shared that tragic fate. Today, Georgia and Ukraine do.


None of this remotely justifies Moscow’s crude and lawless invasion of Ukraine. The U.S. and its European allies should do everything possible to strengthen the government in Kiev politically, economically, and maybe even—clandestinely—militarily. And they should think creatively about what kinds of economic and diplomatic measures might hit the Russian elite where it hurts, with the hope of at least stopping a Russian conquest of all of eastern Ukraine. That such efforts may undermine Russian cooperation on other issues, like Iran and Syria, is a risk the West will have to take.


But the Obama administration will also have to tell Kiev’s revolutionaries that while it supports a unified, democratic Ukraine, it does not support an anti-Russian Ukraine. Russia will not permit it, and at the end of the day, the United States cannot protect Ukraine from Russia’s wrath. It’s a bit like Finland’s dilemma during the Cold War or Taiwan’s now. Even if Ukraine regains control over its domestic affairs, it will never enjoy complete control over its foreign policy. The U.S. has a moral obligation to support democracy and self-determination. But it also has a moral obligation not to make promises it can’t keep.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/no-american-weakness-didnt-encourage-putin-to-invade-ukraine/284168/

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/no-american-weakness-didnt-encourage-putin-to-invade-ukraine/284168/
Wow...

What bias considering the other facts they are ignoring.

Looks like they might be trying to justify us militarizing the Ukraine...

[TeyshaBlue]

Its a fucking op ed.
Fuck.

[pgardn]

Really hard to know, relying on biased media. Not knowing anyone there to trust. I know a guy from the area, bit he came over here at a young age. I should ask if he has ties over their and knows.

So you have made a decision who to believe on an issue we both have to read about. Relying on one person that has ties... that 2nd hand and very subject to bias depending on what region and ethnic group the ties are.

I will take the Western media over Russian govt. proclamations.

You seriously think Russian media would have published their own Snowden's findings? Seriously?

[TeyshaBlue]

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/no-american-weakness-didnt-encourage-putin-to-invade-ukraine/284168/

The call to Taiwan was particularly apt. The US has a very limited set of responses.

[Wild Cobra]

So you have made a decision who to believe on an issue we both have to read about. Relying on one person that has ties... that 2nd hand and very subject to bias depending on what region and ethnic group the ties are.

I will take the Western media over Russian govt. proclamations.

You seriously think Russian media would have published their own Snowden's findings? Seriously?

What are you trying to suggest here? Why are you jumping to conclusions as to my beliefs? Do you think you know them better than I?

I don't know who to believe, but as I keep searching and reading, I am tending to believe that Crimea has welcomed Russia in to help them succeed from the Ukraine.

Why the fuck are you going off on tangents that don't matter? Snowden is a completely separate issue, may he rot in hell.

As for you taking western media over the Russian... I already linked this, but here it is again, from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26410431

[pgardn]

What are you trying to suggest here? Why are you jumping to conclusions as to my beliefs? Do you think you know them better than I?

I don't know who to believe, but as I keep searching and reading, I am tending to believe that Crimea has welcomed Russia in to help them succeed from the Ukraine.

Why the fuck are you going off on tangents that don't matter? Snowden is a completely separate issue, may he rot in hell.

As for you taking western media over the Russian... I already linked this, but here it is again, from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26410431

I am tending to believe the same thing. But clearly there are also many that don't want to be under Russian, or Kiev's control.

Ands it's secede, not succeed.

Tangents? The Western media are often watchdogs over their own governments. Yes they have slants, but are not run by the govt. So biased media... Which biased media? The biased media that published Snowden's stuff?

[Blake]

What are you trying to suggest here? Why are you jumping to conclusions as to my beliefs?

Coming from the guy that liberally uses the term libtard on unsuspecting posters that don't lean left

[Wild Cobra]

I am tending to believe the same thing. But clearly there are also many that don't want to be under Russian, or Kiev's control.


That may or may not be Russia's endgame. I do know they have favorable agreements with both Crimea and Sevastopol that the Ukraine doesn't like.

[ElNono]

Tasty, tasty Vitamin I.

:lol

stole my schtick too...

[boutons_deux]

"The U.S. has a moral obligation to support democracy and self-determination."

WTF? USA's Imperial Corporatocracy has financial interests ONLY.

USA has "democracy"? :lol

Human-Americans have "self-determination"? :lol

[Wild Cobra]

:lol

stole my schtick too...
Which one of the three stooges are you?

Have anything of value for this thread, or are you just proving you are an overgrown adolescent bully?

[pgardn]

That may or may not be Russia's endgame. I do know they have favorable agreements with both Crimea and Sevastopol that the Ukraine doesn't like.

The problem is we don't really know who is in control in Kiev. Until they get a stable government, Russia can claim the neo nazis have taken over again. Russia is reacting to their incompetent man going down, but also some fear that they will lose some influence in Crimea. It's easier to take control of Crimea right now while Kiev is in disorder.

I do believe they are trumping up Russians in Crimea getting abused somehow. There is no good evidence of this.

[Wild Cobra]

The problem is we don't really know who is in control in Kiev. Until they get a stable government, Russia can claim the neo nazis have taken over again. Russia is reacting to their incompetent man going down, but also some fear that they will lose some influence in Crimea. It's easier to take control of Crimea right now while Kiev is in disorder.

I do believe they are trumping up Russians in Crimea getting abused somehow. There is no good evidence of this.

Agreed. Still, it would be nice to see more accurate reporting.

Maybe Crimea also sees the civil unrest where the Ukraine is slitting itself apart, possible leading to civil war as much of the population wants to joint the west, and much of it doesn't...

Crimea has operated under at least partial autonomy. I suspect they will side with Russia, and if they have to get too much help from Russia, they will lose their autonomy to Russia. I also suspect if the Ukraine grants them complete autonomy, they will remain that way.

[boutons_deux]

U.S. Stocks Tumble As Ukraine Anxiety Mountshttp://www.nationalmemo.com/u-s-stocks-tumble-ukraine-anxiety-mounts/

[Wild Cobra]

U.S. Stocks Tumble As Ukraine Anxiety Mountshttp://www.nationalmemo.com/u-s-stocks-tumble-ukraine-anxiety-mounts/


I hope you aren't suggesting that correlation equals causation...

[SupremeGuy]

Just curious, exactly at what point do you anti-American jackasses think we should intervene? When Ukraine falls to Russia? When Russia starts setting it's sights further West? Never?

Like I said earlier, Obama isn't a leader so we're not going to do shit, which I'm sure will please the hardcore leftists in here. You can go ahead and keep posting articles about leadership if you want, btw. :lol

[Wild Cobra]

Just curious, exactly at what point do you anti-American jackasses think we should intervene? When Ukraine falls to Russia? When Russia starts setting it's sights further West? Never?

It appears that the Ukraine is heading for civil war that we are helping to make happen by platitudes. Maybe we should just stay out unless it starts to spill into our allies.

[spurraider21]

Haven't visited the political forum in a while but I can see it's still dominated by croutons copy pasting one sided articles

[boutons_deux]

I hope you aren't suggesting that correlation equals causation...

if not causation (RU's stocks also down, with their borrowing rate up to 7%), then what do you think the US stock drop is due to?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What are you trying to suggest here? Why are you jumping to conclusions as to my beliefs? Do you think you know them better than I?

I don't know who to believe, but as I keep searching and reading, I am tending to believe that Crimea has welcomed Russia in to help them succeed from the Ukraine.

Why the fuck are you going off on tangents that don't matter? Snowden is a completely separate issue, may he rot in hell.

As for you taking western media over the Russian... I already linked this, but here it is again, from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26410431

This is now his canned response when called on his selection bias.

[boutons_deux]

Stocks fell, bond prices higher as Ukraine tensions rise

Rising tensions over Russia's military advance into Ukraine pushed stock markets around the world sharply lower on Monday.

The Standard & Poor's 500 index dropped the most in a month, following stock markets in Europe and Asia lower, as Russia's military tightened its grip on the Crimea region. Investors sold stocks and bought less risky assets such as Treasurys and gold. The price of crude oil also rose on concern that Russian oil exports could be disrupted if Western countries impose sanctions on Moscow.

It's the second time this year the U.S. stock market has been roiled by developments in emerging markets. Stocks slipped in January as investors worried about slowing growth in China and other emerging economies. Now a showdown in Ukraine has grabbed investors' attention and stoked fears of a tit-for-tat campaign of economic sanctions between Russia and Western powers.

“Financial markets are doing exactly would you would expect them to,” said Phil Orlando, chief equity market strategist at Federated Investors. “You have no idea what is going to happen and how this is going to play out.”

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/1780/article/p2p-79503451/

[boutons_deux]

it sure is terrible when SOMEONE ELSE starts wars with trumped-up excuses (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/02/1281587/-Egands-it-s-terrible-when-SOMEONE-ELSE-starts-wars-with-trumped-up-excuses)


U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry on Sunday condemned Russia's "incredible act of aggression" in Ukraine and threatened economic sanctions by the United States and allies to isolate Moscow, but called for a peaceful resolution to the crisis.

"You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text," Kerry told the CBS program "Face the Nation."



Iraq was in the 21st century. Sen. John Kerry voted for it.Nice moral authority you have there, John.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/02/1281587/-Egands-it-s-terrible-when-SOMEONE-ELSE-starts-wars-with-trumped-up-excuses?detail=email

[ElNono]

Which one of the three stooges are you?

Have anything of value for this thread, or are you just proving you are an overgrown adolescent bully?

Why do you respond to posts addressed to somebody else?

If I want to know what you think I'll ask you directly.

[angrydude]

if not causation (RU's stocks also down, with their borrowing rate up to 7%), then what do you think the US stock drop is due to?

The stock market dropped a lot more even on single days just last month over nothing.

Don't waste your breath trying to attribute causation to the market.

[Big Empty]

U.S. Stocks Tumble As Ukraine Anxiety Mounts

http://www.nationalmemo.com/u-s-stocks-tumble-ukraine-anxiety-mounts/

yep...my 401k is gonna lose 2500 bucks roughly today. i know this cause its all in company stock but i moved it out. just till this is over. i know. its dumb to do that but i love to gamble

[Wild Cobra]

yep...my 401k is gonna lose 2500 bucks roughly today. i know this cause its all in company stock but i moved it out. just till this is over. i know. its dumb to do that but i love to gamble
LOL...

$2,500 loss today, $3,000 gain tomorrow...

Up and down, but always up in the long term...

[ElNono]

What is it with you, thinking it'd funny to do unprovoked attacks, following anthers attack, and then pretend it wasn't against me?

How about doing an ethics check on yourself please.

Stop sending PMs... I don't give two shits what you think.

[Wild Cobra]

Stop sending PMs... I don't give two shits what you think.
PM singular.

I believe that's the only time I ever sent you one.

Why do you asses think it's proper to make all threads I enter about me? That's why I PM'd you, because I am sick and tired of you fucktards destroying good threads.

Go away troll.

[TeyshaBlue]

Stop sending PMs... I don't give two shits what you think.

You could at least correct his spelling. I know I really appreciate your efforts with me.:flipoff:lol

[ElNono]

You could at least correct his spelling. I know I really appreciate your efforts with me.:flipoff:lol

Check your ethics! :dramaquee

:lol

[Wild Cobra]

Check your ethics! :dramaquee

:lol
Yes,

You and so many here do nothing but antagonize others. I prefer not to get pissed, but I do.

Your ethics are real weak when continuing to do so, unprovoked.

[Wild Cobra]

Have anything of value for the thread topic?

[TeyshaBlue]

lol Thread Protocol Officer.

[angrydude]

lol. The only way any discussion happens in a thread about Ukraine is when it devolves into a forum pissing match

[Wild Cobra]

A five day old link, but interesting:

Can Ukraine Avoid an East-West Split and Bloody Civil War? (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/can-ukraine-avoid-east-west-split-bloody-civil-war-n38911)

[Wild Cobra]

Another interesting link:

Ukraine crisis fuels secession calls in pro-Russian south (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-secession-russian-crimea); 2/23/14

[Wild Cobra]

Today:

'Crimea secession likely': Ukraine expert (http://www.dw.de/crimea-secession-likely-ukraine-expert/a-17467309)

[pgardn]

Just curious, exactly at what point do you anti-American jackasses think we should intervene? When Ukraine falls to Russia? When Russia starts setting it's sights further West? Never?

Like I said earlier, Obama isn't a leader so we're not going to do shit, which I'm sure will please the hardcore leftists in here. You can go ahead and keep posting articles about leadership if you want, btw. :lol

Intervene how?

What would you do?

Lets hear the plan.

[Nbadan]

Just curious, exactly at what point do you anti-American jackasses think we should intervene? When Ukraine falls to Russia? When Russia starts setting it's sights further West? Never?

Invasions are only OK when we do it...appeasement....appeasement...Chamberlain...

[SupremeGuy]

Intervene how?

What would you do?

Lets hear the plan.Something is better than nothing. Obama calling Putin begging him to stop being mean isn't going to accomplish shit. The way Putin is acting, it seems like no matter what the West does, there's going to be blood spilled. He's in Cold War mode, tbh. Anything I suggest as an intervention will be viewed by him and you as an act of war, but instead of blaming crazy Putin, I'm sure you'll say that it's me who's trying to start WW3.

[pgardn]

Something is better than nothing. Obama calling Putin begging him to stop being mean isn't going to accomplish shit. The way Putin is acting, it seems like no matter what the West does, there's going to be blood spilled. He's in Cold War mode, tbh. Anything I suggest as an intervention will be viewed by him and you as an act of war, but instead of blaming crazy Putin, I'm sure you'll say that it's me who's trying to start WW3.

So what something would you do?

[Drachen]

It seems that supremguy doesn't have the leadership or resolve to say that he favors going to war with Russia. Tsk, it's so sad that he's a big wet nonleader.

[Winehole23]

The call to Taiwan was particularly apt. The US has a very limited set of responses.True, and the impact of those responses might portend war. Es bien serio.

[Winehole23]

http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1735893/ukraine-united-states-exhibition-go-scheduled?cc=5901

[boutons_deux]

"Something is better than nothing."

Dear imperial, geopolitical, planetary police Macho Man expert, tell what the something, or somethings, is?

Come on, man up, lead us forward.

Which dog does USA have in the Ukraine-Russia dogfight? Is it that gas pipeline? Your own dicklessness?

[Winehole23]

It seems that supremguy doesn't have the leadership or resolve to say that he favors going to war with Russia. Tsk, it's so sad that he's a big wet nonleader.at least Rubio was willing to say, after questioning Obama's leadership and resolve, that he'd do more or less the same thing.

[boutons_deux]

What Neocons Want from Ukraine Crisis

Special Report: The Ukrainian crisis – partly fomented by U.S. neocons including holdovers at the State Department – has soured U.S-Russian relations and disrupted President Obama’s secretive cooperation with Russian President Putin to resolve crises in the Mideast, reports Robert Parry.

President Barack Obama has been trying, mostly in secret, to craft a new foreign policy that relies heavily on cooperation with Russian President Vladimir Putin to tamp down confrontations in hotspots such as Iran and Syria. But Obama’s timidity about publicly explaining this strategy has left it open to attack from powerful elements of Official Washington, including well-placed neocons and people in his own administration.

The gravest threat to this Obama-Putin collaboration has now emerged in Ukraine, where a coalition of U.S. neocon operatives and neocon holdovers within the State Department fanned the flames of unrest in Ukraine, contributing to the violent overthrow of democratically elected President Viktor Yanukovych and now to a military intervention by Russian troops in the Crimea, a region in southern Ukraine that historically was part of Russia.



Though I’m told the Ukraine crisis caught Obama and Putin by surprise, the neocon determination to drive a wedge between the two leaders has been apparent for months, especially after Putin brokered a deal to head off U.S. military strikes against Syria last summer and helped get Iran to negotiate concessions on its nuclear program, both moves upsetting the neocons who had favored heightened confrontations.

Putin also is reported to have verbally dressed down Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and then-Saudi intelligence chief Prince Bandar bin Sultan over what Putin considered their provocative actions regarding the Syrian civil war. So, by disrupting neocon plans and offending Netanyahu and Bandar, the Russian president found himself squarely in the crosshairs of some very powerful people.

If not for Putin, the neocons – along with Israel and Saudi Arabia – had hoped that Obama would launch military strikes on Syria and Iran that could open the door to more “regime change” across the Middle East, a dream at the center of neocon geopolitical strategy since the 1990s. This neocon strategy took shape after the display of U.S. high-tech warfare against Iraq in 1991 and the collapse of the Soviet Union later that year. U.S. neocons began believing in a new paradigm of a uni-polar world where U.S. edicts were law.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/02/what-neocons-want-from-ukraine-crisis/

[Wild Cobra]

Which dog does USA have in the Ukraine-Russia dogfight? Is it that gas pipeline? Your own dicklessness?

Sometime the best move, is not to play.

[Winehole23]

at Belbek pro-Russian forces face an unarmed Ukrainian column attempting to retake the base.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/04/pro-russian-militia-open-fires-as-ukrainian-troops-advance-at-belbek-then-soccer-game-eases-raw-nerves/

[Winehole23]

The Kremlin’s own pollster released a survey (http://wciom.ru/index.php?id=459&uid=114720) on Monday that showed 73% of Russians reject it. In phrasing its question posed in early February to 1,600 respondents across the country, the state-funded sociologists at WCIOM were clearly trying to get as much support for the intervention as possible: “Should Russia react to the overthrow of the legally elected authorities in Ukraine?” they asked. Only 15% said yes — hardly a national consensus.

Read more: How Putin's Ukraine Invasion Is a Disaster for Russia | TIME.com (http://world.time.com/2014/03/03/putin-ukraine-crimea-russia/#ixzz2v0xFIGO2) http://world.time.com/2014/03/03/putin-ukraine-crimea-russia/#ixzz2v0xFIGO2

[Winehole23]

Even the adherents of the Communist Party, who tend to feel entitled to all of Russia’s former Soviet domains, said with a broad majority — 62% — that Russia should not jump into Ukraine’s internal crisis.same

[Winehole23]

When markets opened on Monday morning, investors got their first chance to react to the Russian intervention in Ukraine over the weekend, and as a result, the key Russian stock indexes tanked by more than 10%. That amounts to almost $60 billion in stock value wiped out in the course of a day, more than Russia spent preparing for last month’s Winter Olympic Games in Sochi. The state-controlled natural-gas monopoly Gazprom, which accounts for roughly a quarter of Russian tax revenue, lost (http://en.itar-tass.com/economy/721763) $15 billion in market value in one day — incidentally the same amount of money Russia promised to the teetering regime in Ukraine in December and then revoked in January as the revolution took hold.

The value of the Russian currency meanwhile dropped against the dollar to its lowest point on record, and the Russian central bank spent (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-26414285) $10 billion on the foreign-exchange markets trying to prop it up.


Read more: How Putin's Ukraine Invasion Is a Disaster for Russia | TIME.com (http://world.time.com/2014/03/03/putin-ukraine-crimea-russia/#ixzz2v0xozTsG) http://world.time.com/2014/03/03/putin-ukraine-crimea-russia/#ixzz2v0xozTsG

[Winehole23]

The oil-rich state of Kazakhstan, the most important member of every regional alliance Russia has going in the former Soviet space, put out a damning statement (http://mfa.gov.kz/ru/#%21/news/article/13515) on Monday, marking the first time its leaders have ever turned against Russia on such a major strategic issue: “Kazakhstan expresses deep concern over the developments in Ukraine,” the Foreign Ministry said. “Kazakhstan calls on all sides to stop the use of force in the resolution of this situation.”

What likely worries Russia’s neighbors most is the statement (http://eng.kremlin.ru/news/6754) the Kremlin made on March 2, after Putin spoke on the phone with U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. “Vladimir Putin noted that in case of any escalation of violence against the Russian-speaking population of the eastern regions of Ukraine and Crimea, Russia would not be able to stay away and would resort to whatever measures are necessary in compliance with international law.” This sets a horrifying precedent for all of Russia’s neighbors.


Every single state in the former Soviet Union, from Central Asia to the Baltics, has a large Russian-speaking population, and this statement means that Russia reserves the right to invade when it feels that population is threatened. The natural reaction of any Russian ally in the region would be to seek security guarantees against becoming the next Ukraine. For countries in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus, including Armenia, a staunch Russian ally, that would likely stir desires for a closer alliance with NATO and the E.U. (http://topics.time.com/european-union/) For the countries of Central Asia, Russia’s traditional stomping ground on the geopolitical map of the world, that would mean strengthening ties with nearby China, including military ones.
same

[boutons_deux]

Read more: How Putin's Ukraine Invasion Is a Disaster for Russia | TIME.com (http://world.time.com/2014/03/03/putin-ukraine-crimea-russia/#ixzz2v0xozTsG) http://world.time.com/2014/03/03/putin-ukraine-crimea-russia/#ixzz2v0xozTsG



As little as Russia represents to USA business, if the West can restrict Russia commercially (exports, contracts, finance), Putin will have blown off both his feet (as if a dictator cares in a totally corrupt country). Russia's natgas pipelines to Western Europe are its huge trump card.

[Winehole23]

Putin is overplaying his hand. responding with military force would be overplaying ours.

what vital US interest warrants going to war with Russia over Ukraine, btw? anyone?

[Winehole23]

Russia's natgas pipelines to Western Europe are its huge trump card.the EU might rethink its dependence on Russian energy after this.

[boutons_deux]

the EU might rethink its dependence on Russian energy after this.

yep, and US BigOil is willing, enabled by the politicians they own, to export USA's national resource treasures, aka "screwing US energy independence" and hastening US oil/gas depletion, a depletion which will be hugely profitable for BigOil and their investors.

[Spurminator]

Ukrainian-Russian Tensions Dividing U.S. Citizens Along Ignorant, Apathetic Lines

http://o.onionstatic.com/images/25/25471/original/700.jpg?1213




WASHINGTON—According to a poll released Monday by the Pew Research Center, the escalating conflict between Russia and Ukraine has left Americans sharply and bitterly divided along ignorant and apathetic lines, with the nation’s citizenry evenly split between grossly misinformed and wholly indifferent factions.

“The very real threat of a Russia-Ukraine war has completely polarized the general public, pitting two deeply entrenched blocs against one another: those who have absolutely no clue what they’re talking about and those who couldn’t care less,” said Pew spokesman Andrew Collins, noting that the ouster of Ukraine’s president Viktor Yanukovych and Russia’s subsequent occupation of Crimea has inflamed tensions between the two sides to a level unseen since the height of the war in Syria. “This is not a distinctly regional or socioeconomic split, either. We’re seeing local workplaces, friends, even families ripped in two by their desire to either ignore the whole thing completely or spout an inane, half-witted opinion on it like they’re some geopolitical expert.”

“And as the situation develops and Western powers become more involved, these divisions will only appear more stark,” he added. “In the coming weeks, we can expect to hear a growing cacophony of uninformed and harebrained calls for action or restraint from one side, and absolutely nothing at all from the other.”

Results of the poll found that the two sides are at odds on nearly every facet of the crisis, from last week’s protests in Kiev, to Ukraine’s freeing of former president Yulia Tymoshenko, to Russian president Vladimir Putin’s invasion of the Crimean Peninsula in defiance of Western warnings, with neither group seeing eye-to-eye on any of the developments’ significance—or whether they even have any significance to begin with.

Additionally, nearly half the U.S. public has put forth numerous breathtakingly naive potential solutions to the crisis—which range from economic sanctions on Russia, to economic sanctions on Ukraine, to deploying the U.S. military to the “middle of Asia” to solve the standoff—while an equal number of Americans firmly and repeatedly stated their commitment to not giving a shit one way or the other.

Furthermore, sources are reporting that the deep ideological rift over the Russia-Ukraine conflict is visible in nearly every community and place of work across the country, with disinterested and misinformed Americans confirming they have repeatedly come into conflict in recent days.

“It’s incredibly frustrating to try to talk some sense into someone who doesn’t realize that Crimea’s very freedom as an independent nation is at stake,” said completely ignorant San Jose, CA resident Carol Goldmacher, who admitted that she has clashed constantly in the past week over Ukraine with her staunchly apathetic roommate Lisa Suarez. “Talking to her is like talking to a brick wall. It’s almost as if she doesn’t even want to hear how Putin was kicked out of Ukraine by his own people and then retaliated by invading Crimea. Frankly, no matter how much I tell her that Obama’s this close to breaking his silence and issuing a warning to Russia, it’s just not getting through to her.”

“The bottom line is that Carol’s views aren’t going to affect my opinion,” said Suarez of her roommate’s constant uneducated opinions about John Kerry’s upcoming trip to Kiev and her bizarre personal assertion that the invasion happened “suspiciously close to the Olympics.” “My mind’s made up, and I completely stand by my lack of interest in this issue. So Carol should just keep her mouth shut and let this situation—whatever it is—play out.”

According to reports, most Americans see little chance of the warring camps coming to any sort of reconciliation any time soon, as supporters on both sides appeared committed in their respective efforts to either gravely misconstrue the complicated crisis in Ukraine or remain checked out of the issue entirely. Still, some experts are holding out hope that the two groups may be able to someday see eye-to-eye on the thorny issue of Ukrainian sovereignty and Russian aggression.

“As startling as these two factions’ differences may seem at first, there’s still opportunity for the two sides to come together and reach a compromise on the Ukraine conflict,” said Collins. “When it comes to the situation in Crimea, there’s a middle ground between ignorance and apathy on this issue that I think all Americans could happily live with.”

http://www.theonion.com/articles/ukrainianrussian-tensions-dividing-us-citizens-alo,35428/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default

[DarrinS]

lol


http://youtu.be/ZH5kFqlTPls

[TSA]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/russia-test-fires-intercontinental-balli-idUKL6N0M14IW20140304

Russia test fires ICBM.

[boutons_deux]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/russia-test-fires-intercontinental-balli-idUKL6N0M14IW20140304

Russia test fires ICBM.

no worry, TSA and all its NRA gun fellators will take care of Putin

[boutons_deux]

the old SC lesbian whines on

Lindsey Graham Blames Benghazi For Ukraine Crisis

It started with Benghazi. When you kill Americans and nobody pays a price, you invite this type of aggression. http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/03/04/3360641/lindsey-graham-blames-ukraine-crisis-benghazi/

and Repugs making Afghanistan and Iraq, both "wars" lost by USA, pay the price for 9/11 wasted 5000+ US military lives and $Ts. That'll teach everybody not to Mess With USA. :lol

these fucking Repugs are fucking as insane as they are ignorant, matching their red state base.

[boutons_deux]

US Provokes Russia, Acts Surprised to Get a Nasty Reaction



How crazy will Americans get over Ukraine?
http://readersupportednews.org/images/stories/alphabet/rsn-I.jpgf too many people get sucked in by the current, distorted media coverage of events unfolding now in Ukraine, then there's a good chance life will get very ugly for a lot of innocent people, since one of the logical end points is the use of nuclear weapons. Everyone in power knows that's a potential reality, but the urge to demagogue the Russians is presently overwhelming honesty and caution.

Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine) is NOT a real place. Ukraine has never been a real place, not in the sense that Madascar or Cuba are both undeniably real places with real edges. Ukraine has no real edges, just lines on a map imposed by some treaty or army over the past several thousand years. To speak, as the more pompous do, of Ukraine's "territorial integrity" is to speak of an imaginary construct, useful for blurring people's minds for political purposes.

Ukraine in recent years has been what the power brokers of the disintegrating Soviet Union decided to let it be in 1991. Ukraine has no coherent history as a nation. First inhabited some 44,000 years ago, most of the region's history is as occupied territory.

Russia's history of maintaining a military presence in Crimea is older than United States history. The Russian Black Sea Fleet (http://www.ibtimes.com/what-black-sea-fleet-5-interesting-facts-history-russias-crimea-naval-patrol-1558751) has been based in Sevastopol in Crimea continuously since 1783. For the Russians, this is a crucial warm water port, currently leased from Ukraine till 2042.

To understand what this means to the Russians, it probably matters more to them than the United States would care if the Cubans decided to threaten the Naval Base at Guantanamo, and we know that wouldn't have a happy ending.

Both NATO and the European Union were pressuring Ukraine to choose sides, NATO's side. How did they honestly expect Russia to react, sooner or later?

These provocations have gone on for years in different forms, apparently with President Obama's blessing, since he apparently did nothing, or nothing effective, to mitigate or even stop the relentless instigation of Ukrainians toward violence. In mid-December 2013, former Democratic congressman Dennis Kucinich warned (http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/355-europe/20954-focus-is-natos-trojan-horse-riding-toward-the-ukraine-spring) of the trap Ukrainian demonstrators in Independence Square were headed toward.

Writing in Haaretz on February 25, before Ukraine fully came apart, Amatzia Baram (http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.576212) wrote with clear-eyed analysis of the developing situation:

If Ukraine degenerates into chaos, Russia's naval base in Sevastopol will be in danger. If that happens, Putin may have an interest in seeing Ukraine split, for he will have no choice but to seize control somehow - perhaps with the services of a loyal Ukrainian politician - of Sevastopol and the surrounding area, or even of Eastern Ukraine, including the Crimean Peninsula where it is situated.

The United States does not bear the sole responsibility for de-stabilizing Ukraine and risking a nuclear power confrontation, but there is little doubt that if the United States had not been an eager co-conspirator in twenty years of increasingly reckless global expansionism we wouldn't be in this current quandary.

But here we are, headed into another media wonderland where the actual context of putting missiles near another country's borders is expected to elicit a reaction different from the one the Russians would get if they tried to finagle Mexico into a military alliance or base missiles in Canada.

Come on, people, keep your wits about you. American exceptionalism isn't always such a good thing.

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/22381-focus-us-provokes-russia-acts-surprised-to-get-a-nasty-reaction

[clambake]

lol


http://youtu.be/ZH5kFqlTPls

good thing he's not prez.

[Big Empty]

LOL...

$2,500 loss today, $3,000 gain tomorrow...

Up and down, but always up in the long term...

:blah damn u nailed it EXACTLY. thats just my damn luck SMH

[DarrinS]

good thing he's not prez.

" I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless; this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal; this was the moment when we ended a war and secured our nation and restored our image as the last, best hope on Earth"

/faceplant

[DeadlyDynasty]

War kicks ass, tbh...hoping to see a good fight.

[clambake]

lol antichrist wants war, smh

[The Reckoning]

good thing i'm in australia now :lol

[spurraider21]

maybe the US should apologize to both sides about a youtube video

[The Reckoning]

patton is still sitting there in that big jeep in the sky saying "i told you so."

[TSA]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/04/world/europe/ukraine-divided-opinion-irpt/index.html

(CNN) -- I am a Russian-speaking Ukrainian. I am ethnically half-Russian, as my father was born in Siberia. I spent much of my life in Donetsk, a Russian-speaking area of Ukraine. Now I live in Kiev.

My kids speak Ukrainian in school and with many of their friends, and we speak Russian at home. When my son's fourth-grade teacher talks to me, she speaks Ukrainian. I respond in Russian. We don't even notice that our conversation is in two languages.

I understand Ukrainian but don't speak it as easily as I speak English. I just never had any pressure to learn it. In Lviv, in the western part of Ukraine, most speak primarily Ukrainian, but even there, I never had anybody look down on me for my Russian. In the eastern and southern regions, many people speak Russian, and there is absolutely no forced "Ukraineization."

You might be asking what all this fuss is about in Crimea, the autonomous region of eastern Ukraine with strong ties to Russia. Why are thousands coming to the streets with Russian flags? It's easy to explain.

Many people in Crimea and eastern Ukraine don't want the protection of Russian President Vladimir Putin. But there are some who are afraid of forced Ukraineization because they have been fed propaganda by Russian TV channels for years. The purpose is to convince Ukrainians that we are divided, not one country, and that the safest course of action for Russian-speaking areas is to break away and join Russia.

These ideas have been cultivated since I was a child. I remember when I lived in Donetsk in the '90s, how scared we were that a candidate from western Ukraine would win an election and force us to speak Ukrainian. But when I moved out of the area of aggressive Russian information, I quickly realized I can speak Russian in Kiev or Lviv and no one will ever be upset with me!

Over our 22 years of Ukrainian independence, fears of language or ethnic persecution have never come true. But they were kept alive by Russian propaganda. We understand that Putin is trying to escalate tension and provoke civil war in Ukraine right now. He can't afford for a free Ukraine to succeed: His own people might get an idea that it's possible to overthrow a tyrant and build a prosperous country.

Putin won't succeed. Ukrainians are wiser than that and won't kill each other over the nonexistent problem of language. To demonstrate that, last week, people in Lviv (traditionally Ukrainian-speaking) spoke only Russian all day, and in response, those in Donetsk (traditionally Russian-speaking) spoke Ukrainian!

No civil war in Ukraine, Mr. Putin! It must be getting harder to justify the presence of military force to "protect" people when nobody is in danger.

I just talked to my friends in Crimea.

Yuri in Simferopol told me that it's a handful of pro-Russian extremists in the streets trying to make a scene for Russian video cameras -- they are showing that these are the Russians who request protection!

Meanwhile, the rest of the city is terrified by the presence of Russian military forces and are evacuating their families to central or western Ukraine.

I got a similar report from Luda in Kharkov. She said that a large group of Russians were brought across the border by buses, and they were the ones inspiring and instigating unrest that resulted in putting a Russian flag on a municipal building.

The amount of propaganda Russia has poured onto Ukraine is hard to comprehend. Putting troops on Ukrainian land is going to bring the very opposite result from what Putin expected: I believe it's uniting Ukraine.

Meanwhile, Russia and Putin are getting into deeper isolation from the world as more and more countries are recalling their ambassadors from Russia and condemning the government's actions.

Good job, Mr. Putin! Thank you from all of us Ukrainians (Russian and Ukrainian-speaking) for uniting Ukraine against your military aggression.

[pgardn]

Putin is overplaying his hand. responding with military force would be overplaying ours.

what vital US interest warrants going to war with Russia over Ukraine, btw? anyone?

Blowing Putin up so we don't have to endure photos of him thinking he's to sexy for his shirt.

It hurts.

[Wild Cobra]

Interesting link:

Crimean Premier Says Ukrainian Military Units Have Started to Surrender (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/05/world/europe/crimea-ukraine-russia.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=0)


The prime minister of Crimea, the autonomous Ukrainian republic seized by Russian military forces, said Tuesday that most Ukrainian military units on the Crimean Peninsula had surrendered and pledged allegiance to his pro-Russian government, and that local officials were working to speed up a referendum on independence from Ukraine.

Speaking at a news conference on Tuesday morning, Prime Minister Sergei Aksyonov said that Crimean officials were in control of the security situation, even as standoffs continued between Russian forces and Ukrainian troops at several military installations, including at a base near the Belbek airport, near Sevastopol.

“There is no safety threat to human life in Crimea,” Mr. Aksyonov said.

[boutons_deux]

US NGO Involvement in Ukraine Uprising

Close analysis of documents related to the recent protests in Ukraine culminating in the ouster of the Viktor Yanukovych-led government suggest probable foreign-orchestration, according to historian and geopolitical analyst F. William Engdahl. The US has vigorously advocated for Ukraine-European Union integration, much as it backed the 2004 failed “Orange Revolution” to split Ukraine from Russia in an effort to weaken Russia. Yanukovych opposed such amalgamation.


In December 2013 Ukrainians presented evidence suggesting direct involvement of the Belgrade US-financed training group, CANVAS, as a key player behind the Kiev protests–an information sheet distributed to opposition protestors in Kiev that “is a word-for-word and picture-for-picture translation of the pamphlet used by US-financed Canvas organizers in the 2011 Cairo Tahrir Square protests that toppled Hosni Mubarak and opened the door to the US-backed Muslim Brotherhood.”

In addition, Ukrainian boxer-turned political guru Vitaly Klitschko, a major figure inspiring the coup, has met with US State Department officials and is close to Angela Merkel’s CDU political machine in Germany. Two EU statespersons pushing integration—Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt and Polish Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski—are also both closely aligned with Washington interests.

http://www.projectcensored.org/us-ngo-involvement-ukraine-uprising/

[boutons_deux]

Forbes: 'The Invasion Of Crimea Is Crushing Russia's Stock And Currency Markets' (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/03/1281745/-Forbes-The-Invasion-Of-Crimea-Is-Crushing-Russia-s-Stock-And-Currency-Markets)


1) The Russian benchmark stock index, the MICES, is down 10% or more (it has been down as much as 11.2% earlier today), the biggest drop in at least five years (depending on the close).2) The Russian ruble reached all time lows against the euro and the dollar. To prop it up the Russian central bank—on a "temporary" basis—raised interest rates 1.5%, from 5.5 to 7.0%, and spent $10 billion toward the same end. This will significantly hamper growth in Russia unless they lower those rates fast.

3) Shares of the corporation Gazprom, the Russian Federation's gas monopoly, are also down 10%.

4) The yield the Russian government has to pay on its state bonds is near (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-03/bank-rossii-raises-key-rate-150-basis-points-on-stability-risks.html) a record high.

5) Foreign capital reserves for Russia are at a multi-year low.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/03/1281745/-Forbes-The-Invasion-Of-Crimea-Is-Crushing-Russia-s-Stock-And-Currency-Markets?detail=email

[The Reckoning]

war is outdated

[Winehole23]

Blowing Putin up so we don't have to endure photos of him thinking he's to sexy for his shirt.

It hurts.There's a bit more at stake than competing national vanities; Ukraine borders NATO partners.

As evidenced in the recent EU action in Libya, the USA is the relevant military force. We will be consulted.

[angrydude]

lol @ leaked phone call saying the snipers were firing on both sides and hired by Maiden leaders.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/05/1282285/--BREAKING-Leak-Estonian-PM-says-Maidan-snipers-were-not-Yanukovich-s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8

[boutons_deux]

Paul Ryan Uses Ukraine To Argue For Construction Of Keystone XL Pipeline (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/03/05/3363111/paul-ryan-ukraine-keystone/)

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/03/05/3363111/paul-ryan-ukraine-keystone/

and ... and ... and .... Benghazi!

and ... and ... and .... IRS!

and ... and ... and .... Obamacare!

:lol

Repugs, and their voters, are total assholes.

[Th'Pusher]

[SIZE=3][FONT=arial]Paul Ryan Uses Ukraine To Argue For Construction Of Keystone XL Pipeline (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/03/05/3363111/paul-ryan-ukraine-keystone/)

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/03/05/3363111/paul-ryan-ukraine-keystone/

This could be a legigitamate argument, no? As long as the expectation is set that this would result in additional exports at the expense f American energy independence and cost to consumers.

[boutons_deux]

This could be a legigitamate argument, no? As long as the expectation is set that this would result in additional exports at the expense f American energy independence and cost to consumers.

Canadian's XL pipeline oil is not for US consumption or US energy independence.

US crude can't be exported (but Repugs are pushing for that), don't know if Canadian tar sold to US companies can be exported, probably yes.

Tar is so expensive to refine, it's refined into higher-margin/cost-recovery products for export.

[TSA]

US NGO Involvement in Ukraine Uprising

Close analysis of documents related to the recent protests in Ukraine culminating in the ouster of the Viktor Yanukovych-led government suggest probable foreign-orchestration, according to historian and geopolitical analyst F. William Engdahl. The US has vigorously advocated for Ukraine-European Union integration, much as it backed the 2004 failed “Orange Revolution” to split Ukraine from Russia in an effort to weaken Russia. Yanukovych opposed such amalgamation.


In December 2013 Ukrainians presented evidence suggesting direct involvement of the Belgrade US-financed training group, CANVAS, as a key player behind the Kiev protests–an information sheet distributed to opposition protestors in Kiev that “is a word-for-word and picture-for-picture translation of the pamphlet used by US-financed Canvas organizers in the 2011 Cairo Tahrir Square protests that toppled Hosni Mubarak and opened the door to the US-backed Muslim Brotherhood.”

In addition, Ukrainian boxer-turned political guru Vitaly Klitschko, a major figure inspiring the coup, has met with US State Department officials and is close to Angela Merkel’s CDU political machine in Germany. Two EU statespersons pushing integration—Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt and Polish Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski—are also both closely aligned with Washington interests.

http://www.projectcensored.org/us-ngo-involvement-ukraine-uprising/






I clicked that link and then continued clicking links to other pages. I now see what makes you crazy.

[pgardn]

There's a bit more at stake than competing national vanities; Ukraine borders NATO partners.

As evidenced in the recent EU action in Libya, the USA is the relevant military force. We will be consulted.

So now you want to go get serious.

Lighten up fella... So you did not like my reference to Right Said Fred and Putins nature photos?

[boutons_deux]

Boehner To Obama: Confront Russia By Boosting Natural Gas Exportshttp://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/boehner-obama-putin-natural-gas?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tpm-news+%28TPMNews%29

yeah, that'll show Putin who's boss!

[TSA]

Looks like we've sent f-18's to Poland.

[Wild Cobra]

Boehner To Obama: Confront Russia By Boosting Natural Gas Exportshttp://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/boehner-obama-putin-natural-gas?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tpm-news+%28TPMNews%29

yeah, that'll show Putin who's boss!



LOL...

Like any of our exports will have enough ships to compete with the pipeline being built, and completed next year. The US would have to sabotage it, and I don't think our administration is that bold and stupid.

[Nbadan]

http://assets.amuniversal.com/2573efd0862f013104c6005056a9545d.jpg

[z0sa]

Obama's looking pretty weak... but at the same time, it'd be like Mexico being dominated by cartels and violence ...

[Technique]

http://rt.com/news/estonia-confirm-leaked-tape-970

Turns out Yanukovich was honest when he said he never ordered snipers to shoot on his own people. The snipers were shooting both the maidan protesters and the police officers.

[boutons_deux]

Obama's looking pretty weak

really? what, to you, would make him "look strong"?

take his shirt off?

blasting watermelons (that's racist!) with a shotgun in the Rose Garden?

Like duyba, invade the wrong country?

Like St Ronnie, invade a super power like Granada?

Arm wrestle Bishop Gecko?

[Winehole23]

So now you want to go get serious.

Lighten up fella... So you did not like my reference to Right Said Fred and Putins nature photos?it wasn't very funny.

maybe you should take yourself more seriously. your upside as a comedian is clearly limited.

[pgardn]

really? what, to you, would make him "look strong"?

take his shirt off?

blasting watermelons (that's racist!) with a shotgun in the Rose Garden?

Like duyba, invade the wrong country?

Like St Ronnie, invade a super power like Granada?

Arm wrestle Bishop Gecko?

I would agree. Some would of course jokingly want a war. The military options are small.

What was the right country to invade, I don't know what you are referencing?
We did not invade a city in Spain, we invaded Grenada.

[pgardn]

it wasn't very funny.

maybe you should take yourself more seriously. your upside as a comedian is clearly limited.

Well I will just adjust my tie and think, tough crowd.
And forge ahead as a very serious man, on a very serious board with serious comedic critics.

[Winehole23]

lol throat clearing

[pgardn]

lol throat clearing

Well of course, the adjusting of the tie causes the reflex. Or the other-way-round.

[pgardn]

Seriously wineman, you can't see Putin dancing to this...?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fL06-Hcoe-Y

[Winehole23]

the singer does look a little like Putin

[pgardn]

Putin with his shirt off because he is too sexy for it.
Dancing, on the catwalk, on the catwalk yeah...
I can see it.

[Winehole23]

I got the reference. I was in college when the song came out.

[pgardn]

I got the reference. I was in college when the song came out.

Yeah but you got too see it.
Envision Putin ripping off his shirt claiming he is to sexy for Milan, New York and Japan while dancing in Siberia...
On a catwalk.

[Winehole23]

I saw the video. We had MTV back then.

[z0sa]

really? what, to you, would make him "look strong"?

take his shirt off?

blasting watermelons (that's racist!) with a shotgun in the Rose Garden?

Like duyba, invade the wrong country?

Like St Ronnie, invade a super power like Granada?

Arm wrestle Bishop Gecko?

I said "looking," not is. It's hard not to appear weak when you're powerless to do anything while dozens are being killed by their own government in a supposed first world country.

[TSA]

http://rt.com/news/estonia-confirm-leaked-tape-970

Turns out Yanukovich was honest when he said he never ordered snipers to shoot on his own people. The snipers were shooting both the maidan protesters and the police officers.

Russia Today. Honest. LOL.

[Wild Cobra]

Obama's looking pretty weak... but at the same time, it'd be like Mexico being dominated by cartels and violence ...
He has always looked weak. What's new?

[boutons_deux]

I said "looking," not is. It's hard not to appear weak when you're powerless to do anything while dozens are being killed by their own government in a supposed first world country.

USA appears weak to whom? Which adult macho-wannabes, who never risk their own lives and who have the emotional maturity of early male teen adolescence, are you talking about?

[z0sa]

Typical silly biased defensive boutons.

[RandomGuy]

The simple fact that you accuse me of confirmation bias. Your intent is clear.

So you can't actually show a quote.

Go stand in the corner with cosmored.

[angrydude]

Russia Today. Honest. LOL.

That's like dismissing CNN because they have a pro-america bias.

It's all propaganda.

[angrydude]

USA appears weak to whom? Which adult macho-wannabes, who never risk their own lives and who have the emotional maturity of early male teen adolescence, are you talking about?

Agreed. The "USA looks weak argument" is simply asinine. Unless you start dropping nuclear bombs you're always going to look "weak" to somebody. Or maybe you just aren't a bloodthirsty psychopath.

[boutons_deux]

Typical silly biased defensive boutons.

USA has had enough Repug Macho Men (and the MIC that finances them) slaughtering Americans and foreigners, wasting many tax payer $Ts, in the bogus, botched wars. I'll take "weak" any day in return for all the destruction of the Repug Macho Men war criminals.

Rachel Maddow will continue to rip the "strong" Repug Macho Men multiple assholes tonight as she exposes more on the Repug buildup to invading Iraq.

[RandomGuy]

http://assets.amuniversal.com/2573efd0862f013104c6005056a9545d.jpg

Pretty much sums it up.

The worst part is that the valid criticisms get lost a sea of hysteria. His administration does plenty that deserves criticism, and hell, I have even been grateful for some of the checks that the GOP has done on presidential power.

BUT

The only take away I have from most conservative criticism is that they, like Rove on election night, have begun to drink their own coolaid, and that makes the hysteria all the more dangerous.

[angrydude]

USA has had enough Repug Macho Men (and the MIC that finances them) slaughtering Americans and foreigners, wasting many tax payer $Ts, in the bogus, botched wars. I'll take "weak" any day in return for all the destruction of the Repug Macho Men war criminals.

Rachel Maddow will continue to rip the "strong" Repug Macho Men multiple assholes tonight as she exposes more on the Repug buildup to invading Iraq.

Like John ""You just don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext," yet voted for the Iraq War and stands by it "Kerry?

[angrydude]

Pretty much sums it up.

The worst part is that the valid criticisms get lost a sea of hysteria. His administration does plenty that deserves criticism, and hell, I have even been grateful for some of the checks that the GOP has done on presidential power.

BUT

The only take away I have from most conservative criticism is that they, like Rove on election night, have begun to drink their own coolaid, and that makes the hysteria all the more dangerous.

In the GOP's defense, Obama is a failure.

[boutons_deux]

Like John ""You just don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext," yet voted for the Iraq War and stands by it "Kerry?

yep, Kerry or anybody else who still supports the bogus destruction of Iraq.

Young Kerry was right about Viet Nam, old Kerry was wrong about Iraq.

[RandomGuy]

Still don't see anything about going to war with Russia.

Ok, let's be a bit fair then, and clear up a bit.

War? No.

But what Obama won't do, and what Romney wouldn't have done, and no other Republican would do as president for that matter, is threaten the kinds of things that Ted Cruz has done, at least not openly.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/kevinglass/2014/02/28/ted-cruz-stand-up-to-putins-power-grab-stand-with-ukraine-n1802493


They are going to make hay of the fact that Obama is doing about the only thing he can, YET.

If Obama had done so, the Fox-news machine would be saying that he was over-reacting, etc.

That was my point. You may make a distinction there, as you feel the need to defend the anti-Obama hysteria at least that far.

Do you really think that Krauthammer et al. would approve of anything Obama did, no matter what that was?

A simple yes or no will do.

[RandomGuy]

In the GOP's defense, Obama is a failure.

Meh, most people would describe similarly the second term of every single two-term president in the last 40 years.

Is it grape or what?

Name one good thing that Obama has done, killing OBL aside.

[Wild Cobra]

So you can't actually show a quote.

Go stand in the corner with cosmored.
How about stop thinking because you throw phrases around like "confirmation bias" that you are smart.

[angrydude]

lol Crimea voting to join Russia.

Self Determination BITCHES!

http://news.yahoo.com/big-power-talks-ukraine-crisis-little-progress-003521587--business.html

[Wild Cobra]

lol Crimea voting to join Russia.

Self Determination BITCHES!

http://news.yahoo.com/big-power-talks-ukraine-crisis-little-progress-003521587--business.html

I'm pretty sure there are bias errors in that reporting from that Ukrainian journalist.

edit add:

Actually, I'm not sure if she's Ukrainian, but I think she is.

[angrydude]

Meh, most people would describe similarly the second term of every single two-term president in the last 40 years.

Is it grape or what?

Name one good thing that Obama has done, killing OBL aside.

He didn't invade Syria despite really really wanting to.

[TSA]

Ok, let's be a bit fair then, and clear up a bit.

War? No.

Thanks, stopped reading here.

[TeyshaBlue]

I saw the video. We had MTV back then.

On wood burning TVs!

[TSA]

Pictures and details of military. Pretty cool link.

http://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php/Flashpoint:_Ukraine_2014#United_States_of_America

[Jacob1983]

Bring it on.

[RandomGuy]

Thanks, stopped reading here.

So you passed on an opportunity to be intellectually honest. Let me give you that opportunity again.

I will ask it again, because it is important.

Do you really think that Krauthammer et al. would approve of anything Obama did, no matter what that was?

A simple yes or no will do.

[TSA]

tl;dr

[Drachen]

Yeah but you got too see it.
Envision Putin ripping off his shirt claiming he is to sexy for Milan, New York and Japan while dancing in Siberia...
On a catwalk.

On a catwalk?

[pgardn]

On a catwalk?

Yeah. Hup.

On the catwalk yeah.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fL06-Hcoe-Y

[Drachen]

Ugh you messed it up

[Winehole23]

On wood burning TVs!good ole backwoods cable tv engineering

[Winehole23]

don't trust the cable guy

[boutons_deux]

5-taxpayer-plane-crash McLiar exposes his senility

McCain: Obama's 1983 college essay on US-Soviet tensions proves he's to blame for Putin and Ukraine (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/05/1282318/-McCain-Obama-s-1983-college-essay-on-US-Soviet-tensions-proves-he-s-to-blame-for-Putin-and-Ukraine)

Sarah Palin's political mentor speaks out (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/04/john-mccain-ukraine_n_4899085.html?utm_hp_ref=politics):


Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) on Tuesday drew from a new source in arguing that President Barack Obama has been too 'soft' on Russia: An article Obama wrote back when he was in college.In a blistering speech on the Senate floor, McCain blamed Obama in part for Russian President Vladimir Putin's aggression amid the Ukraine crisis, days after Russian forces moved in on the Crimean peninsula.


So McCain finds some 1983 essay that Obama wrote for a student newspaper while he was a senior at Columbia and decides that essay means Obama is responsible for Putin's actions in Ukraine?

And if that's not ridiculous enough, McCain's whole spiel was centered less on what Obama (who was 21 at the time) actually said than it was on what a right-wing pundit's interpretation of the essay:


In his article, Obama blamed "U.S.-Soviet tensions largely on America's war mentality and the twisted logic of the Cold War," McCain said, quoting from Goldberg. "President Reagan's defense buildup, according to Obama, contributed to the 'silent spread of militarism' and reflected our 'distorted national priorities' rather than what should be our goal: a 'nuclear free world.'"

A "nuclear free world"? The horrors!

I know Sarah Palin might be disappointed by such a thing, what with her front-row seats to nuclear apocalypse and all, but c'mon John. Isn't it time for you to take a vacation?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/05/1282318/-McCain-Obama-s-1983-college-essay-on-US-Soviet-tensions-proves-he-s-to-blame-for-Putin-and-Ukraine?detail=email

How does soft-brained senile old fart propose to be "hard" on Russia. "What Would McLiar Do?"

[pgardn]

Ugh you messed it up

You screwed up by asking.
Made me subject the board to more rejected SNL skits.


Next step, cause trouble in Kiev. A few bombs planted, start some riots, destabilize, people will forget about Crimea.
Can they pull this off, should be interesting.

[Drachen]

I was saying the next line. I was setting you up.

[pgardn]

I was saying the next line. I was setting you up.

G Dammit.

I missed a fat pitch.

On a catwalk yeah,
I do my little turn on the catwalk.

Oh.
Winehole watched this on a wood burning cable TV. They had MTV in the Pleistocene.

[Drachen]

Eh, I can't imagine he and I are too different in age. My TV may not have burnt wood, but it sure was made of it.

[Winehole23]

Obama may be right that the invasion of one country by another is not condoned under international law. But the complicating factor in the Ukraine case, many international relations experts note, is that the invading power is Russia: a veto-wielding member of the United Nations Security Council, a nuclear power, and a former empire that until 1954 did include Crimea as part of its territory.


Moreover, Russia does appear to have the people of Crimea on its side.


These complications help explain why the Obama administration and in particular Secretary of State John Kerry (http://www.csmonitor.com/tags/topic/John+Kerry) continue to press for a diplomatic solution.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/2014/0306/Obama-Ukraine-proposal-Enough-punch-to-forestall-a-Russian-Crimea-video

[boutons_deux]

McCain: ‘It’s Tragic’ There’s No U.S. Military Option In Ukraine (http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/03/07/3378371/mccain-military-option-ukraine/)http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/03/07/3378371/mccain-military-option-ukraine/

It's tragic there is no mental competence test option for Congresscritters

[Winehole23]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

[boutons_deux]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html

"The test of policy is how it ends, not how it begins." iow, Henry's VN policy was a 100% failure

Afghanistan and Iraq are also 100% failures

But, the MIC alway$ win$.

[Wild Cobra]

McCain: ‘It’s Tragic’ There’s No U.S. Military Option In Ukraine (http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/03/07/3378371/mccain-military-option-ukraine/)http://thinkprogress.org/world/2014/03/07/3378371/mccain-military-option-ukraine/

It's tragic there is no mental competence test option for Congresscritters




Wow...

The master RINO got one right:


Later in the interview, when host Andrea Mitchell asked if there is a military option for the U.S. in Ukraine, the Arizona Republican sounded despondent. “I’d love to tell you that there is Andrea, but frankly I do not see it,” he said, adding, “I wish that there were. … I do not see a military option and it’s tragic.”

We have no option here. Anything we do militarily, we risk starting WWIII.

[Winehole23]

We have no option here.diplomacy isn't nothing.

[boutons_deux]

Wow...

The master RINO got one right:


He's right in his assessment but that's totally offset by his standing desire to start another war and waste Other People's Lives and US $Bs.

Fuck Repugs, every single one of them, and the assholes who elect them.

[Wild Cobra]

diplomacy isn't nothing.
He said: "I do not see a military option."

Does diplomacy include moving in warships to the Black Sea?

[Wild Cobra]

He's right in his assessment but that's totally offset by his standing desire to start another war and waste Other People's Lives and US $Bs.

Fuck Repugs, every single one of them, and the assholes who elect them.

I hate to admit this, but I tend to agree with you on this one.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He said: "I do not see a military option."

Does diplomacy include moving in warships to the Black Sea?

http://rt.com/news/uss-truxtun-black-sea-586/

[boutons_deux]

Ukraine is About Oil. So Was World War I

Ukraine is a lot more portentous than it appears. It is fundamentally about the play for Persian Gulf oil. So was World War I. The danger lies in the chance of runaway escalation, just like World War I.

Let’s put Ukraine into a global strategic context.

The oil is running out. God isn’t making any more dinosaurs and melting them into the earth’s crust. Instead, as developing world countries aspire to first-world living standards, the draw-down on the world’s finite supply of oil is accelerating. The rate at which known reserves are being depleted is four times that at which new oil is being discovered.

That’s why oil cost $26 a barrel in 2001, but $105 today. It’s supply and demand.

Oil recalls that old expression: “In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.” In industrial civilization, the nation that controls the oil is king. And 60% of the known oil reserves are in the Persian Gulf. That’s why the U.S. invaded Iraq in 2003: to seize control of the oil. Alan Greenspan told at least one truth in his life: “I hate to have to admit what everybody knows. Iraq is about oil.”

But the U.S. lost the war in Iraq. Remember? The U.S. was going to install a democracy and 14 permanent bases there. They’re not there. The U.S. was run out after proving unable to pacify the Islamic jihad it had unleashed under the pretext of searching for non-existent weapons of mass destruction. Instead, Iraq allied itself with Iran, its Shi’ite comrade-in-arms in the Muslim Wars of Religion.

So today, the battle for the Persian Gulf is being carried out through its two regional powers, Saudi Arabia, the champion of Sunni Islam, and Iran, the torch carrier for Shi’ite Islam. Think of the Wars between the Protestants and Catholics in the 1500s. The U.S. backs Saudi Arabia, as it has done since 1945, when Roosevelt cut a deal with Ibn Saud to protect his illegitimate throne in exchange for the House of Saud only selling oil in dollars.

Iran, of course, is implacably hostile to the U.S. after the U.S. overthrew Iran’s democratically elected president, Mosaddegh, in 1953 and installed its own fascist puppet, the Shah of Iran. The Iranians overthrew the Shah in 1979 and installed a fundamentalist theocracy that continues to this day.

Iran’s main ally in the region is Syria, which the U.S. has been trying to overthrow for three years by helping the al-Qaeda-linked rebels that are attacking Syria. Syria’s chief military patron is Russia, which conveniently bailed Obama out of his childish “red line” declaration last year, a declaration he had neither the military nor political nor diplomatic capacity to carry out.

So, the upheaval in Ukraine is really about the U.S. trying to weaken Syria’s patron, Russia. If Russia is weakened, Syria is weakened. If Syria is weakened, Iran is weakened.

If Iran is weakened, the U.S. has a better chance of seizing control of the world’s largest reserves of oil. That is the Great Game that is going on here.

The problem is the risk of escalation. It’s not at all fanciful to imagine some ambitious Ukrainian colonel firing at Russian forces. Russia fires back, decisively. This puts Ukraine at risk for its European suitor, the EU. So NATO intervenes to try to intimidate Russia. Russia retaliates to blacken NATO's nose. And before anyone knows it, the U.S. is dragged into a shooting war where no one can understand how it ends. This is almost exactly how World War I started.

The Germans were gunning for Persian Gulf oil via their relationship with the Ottoman Empire. But this would have given Germany a choke hold on England, which had only just converted its navy to oil. So, England reversed its historical rivalry with France, in 1904, and with Russia, in 1907, to try to contain Germany. But a minor, unanticipated dust-up in the Balkans in the summer of 1914 escalated into The Greatest War The World Had Ever Known.

In a freak event, a Serbian teenager killed the heir-apparent to the Austrian-Hungarian throne. So Austria-Hungary attacked Serbia. Russia couldn’t stand idle as its sole Balkan ally, Serbia, was humiliated. So it mobilized on Austria-Hungary, an effective declaration of war.

Germany moved to defend its ally, Austria-Hungary, by attacking Russia’s ally, France. England, France’s ally, responded by declaring war on Germany. Within less than one month of a minor incident in a minor region of the continent, all the major powers of Europe were at war.

World War I would inflict 27 million casualties through the industrialization of human slaughter. It destroyed four great empires, more than had expired in any single event, ever. Eleven new nations were created in its aftermath, including Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine. It was the event that shifted the locus of global power from Europe to the U.S., where it has resided ever since. It rearranged the architecture of global power more than any event of the last thousand years.

So the portent of Ukraine is a global strategic order hanging in the balance. The U.S. must subdue Russia to gain control of the world’s oil. It is the same strategic objective that is driving the U.S.’s subversion of the democratically elected government in Venezuela: it sits on one of the world’s largest reserves of oil. Indeed, all of the U.S.’ aggressions on Iran, Syria, and Venezuela, and its subversion of the democratically elected government of Ukraine, can be understood in this context.

The wild card in the whole fracas is China. China is the biggest customer of Iranian oil, and the largest international investor in Venezuela. These represent some of China’s moves to counter the U.S. attempt to control the world’s oil. The potential escalation from Ukraine as the U.S. pressures Syria, Iran, and Venezuela, inescapably involves China.

If China becomes involved, trying to defend its allies and its supply of oil, it is anybody’s guess where it ends. But it won’t be pretty.

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/08

[Wild Cobra]

OMG...

It's not about oil.

Bouton's the lemming from Common Dreams...

[boutons_deux]

OMG...

It's not about oil.

Bouton's the lemming from Common Dreams...

What's Ukraine about?

[Wild Cobra]

What's Ukraine about?
Crimea wants independence. It's almost 60% Russian, less than 25% Ukrainian, and about 12% tartan. It looks like the only way they will get out of Ukrainian rule, which treats ethic Russians like dirt, is to become part of Russia.

[boutons_deux]

Crimea wants independence. It's almost 60% Russian, less than 25% Ukrainian, and about 12% tartan. It looks like the only way they will get out of Ukrainian rule, which treats ethic Russians like dirt, is to become part of Russia.

WC's myopia is a hilarious as his unintended comedy.

The US and NATO have been pushing NATO right up against Russia's border, poking the Russian bear, "defensive" missiles in Poland pointed at Russia, supporting the Ukranian extreme right neo-Nazis to bring down Russia's Ukranian puppet.

Geo-politics is always about securing access to energy (oil).

Your libertarian hero Wombat Hair plays the energy card:

Rand Paul: My Ukraine foreign policy is ‘drilling every possible conceivable place’

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/09/rand-paul-my-ukraine-foreign-policy-is-drilling-every-possible-conceivable-place/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

[pgardn]

What's Ukraine about?

You are serious?
You really believe Ukraine is all about oil.
The protesters that came out in mass had oil on their minds?

So the model for this current situation is WWI...

Boots, you also enjoy huge over simplifications if it suits your taste.

[boutons_deux]

You are serious?
You really believe Ukraine is all about oil.
The protesters that came out in mass had oil on their minds?

So the model for this current situation is WWI...

Boots, you also enjoy huge over simplifications if it suits your taste.

Oil may not be foremost for Urkanians (Russian gas certainly is), perhaps, but Ukraine-on-Russia's-border-into-NATO is a piece of West-vs-East geo-politics.

Do you MSM-headline reading assholes think:

Russia-Syria-Iran-China vs USA-UK-NATO-Saudia Arabia is NOT about geo-politics of energy (oil, and coal)

Neocons want war against Iran (with Ukraine as proxy for Russia-Syria-Iran) not because of the nuclear angle (neocons' smokescreen) but for the same reason the neocons invaded, destroyed (and lost) Iraq: oil.

[pgardn]

No I don't believe every conflict is geopolitical and about oil.
In this case economic independence is definitely part of the conflict. And part of any economy involves having a source of energy. But it's all oil is a huge "let's make it black and white"

God created man specially, the Bible says so, end of story.

[boutons_deux]

No I don't believe every conflict is geopolitical and about oil.

In this case economic independence is definitely part of the conflict.

Ukraine, if ever integrated into NATO and EU, will be economically dependent, esp energy dependent, on Western $Bs and energy.

"God created man specially" :lol

The often (intentionallly) opaque bigger picture is always the key to understanding the smaller picture, like Ukraine.

The industrial world is totally dependent on oil, that's BLACK AND WHITE.

The collapse of the world price of oil in the early 80s, plus its disaster in Afghanistan, exposed its bankruptcy and forced the collapse of USSR (not St Ronnie's cheap Hollywood bloviating), since selling oil was USSR's main source for hard currency $$$.

iow, oil played a huge part in the destruction of the USSR. btw, gates et all at CIA lied about Russia's strength to support, fitted the CIA "facts" to fit St Ronnie pumping transferring taxpayers' $100Bs into the MIC.

[pgardn]

So the oil reserves and unexplored shale structures that almost certainly exist in a Russia should make it THE economic power in the world if it's ALL about oil.

So why is the Russian economy so rotten?
Why don't you buy Russian bonds if they hold the black gold.
Think of the future Boots, if oil is the currency, jump on those Russian bonds.
Dont you see a bright future for the Russian economy?

Its more than just having oil Boots. It's way bigger than that.

[angrydude]

It is and it isn't about oil.

To Europe and the US its about the gas pipelines and wanting to place missiles in Ukraine. that's why they engineered the coup in Ukraine and propped up neo-nazis to take over.

The neo-nazis want to be assholes.

And the crimeans, if they didn't before, now just want to be part of Russia.

[pgardn]

It is and it isn't about oil.

To Europe and the US its about the gas pipelines and wanting to place missiles in Ukraine. that's why they engineered the coup in Ukraine and propped up neo-nazis to take over.

The neo-nazis want to be assholes.

And the crimeans, if they didn't before, now just want to be part of Russia.

You can't do shit with oil if you can't get it out of the ground efficiently because your political process is totally corrupt and you can't innovate that energy money into a diverse economy that supplies goods and services other than oil.

[boutons_deux]

Torture backer Dick Cheney wants ‘military options’ against Putin for ‘blowing off’ treaties

Former Vice President Dick Cheney on Sunday cited treaty violations by Russian President Vladimir Putin as a reason that the U.S. should consider “military options” in response to the invasion of Ukraine.

“I worry when we begin to address a crisis, the first thing we do is we take options off the table,” Cheney told CBS host Charlie Rose. “I don’t think the administration should do that.”

“In a sense, [the Obama administration said] no military,” he continued. “He seemed to operate that way most of the time. There are military options that don’t involve putting troops on the ground in Crimea. We could go back and reinstate the ballistic missile defense program.”

Cheney pointed out that Putin had violated commitments “like the Budapest Memorandum, when Russia, the U.S. and Britain guaranteed the borders of Ukraine in return for Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons. Very important. And Putin is just blowing that off.”

“The real question is how much do you want to allow Putin to ignore those agreements — very, very important agreements — that ended the Cold War, led to the unification of Europe and the liberation of millions of people?” he asked. “I do not believe we should allow him to do that without paying a price.”

“We have a treaty obligation under Article 5 of the NATO treaty, an attack against one is an attack against all.”

As vice president of the United States, Cheney was accused (http://www.salon.com/2009/02/16/treaties/) of violating United Nations Convention Against Torture (http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html) with his support for waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation techniques of alleged terrorists.

“In ratifying the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel Inhuman and Degrading Treatment in 1994, the Senate defined ‘cruel, inhuman and degrading’ as any practice that would violate the Fifth, Eighth or 14th amendments,” a Washintgon Post editorial noted in 2005. “Interpreting the Constitution as permitting waterboarding in secret prisons is, to most experts outside the administration, legally outrageous and politically untenable.”

“They want to give themselves the authority to commit human rights abuses without having to explain or justify themselves to the public, the world — or an impartial court.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/09/torture-backer-dick-cheney-wants-military-options-against-putin-for-blowing-off-treaties/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

Bush I did a deal with Gorbachev not to install missiles in the former Iron Curtain countries, then Clinton violated it.

[boutons_deux]

Media Criticize Obama's Florida Trip, Ignore Bush Vacation During 2008 Invasion Of Georgia http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/09/media-criticize-obamas-florida-trip-ignore-bush/198421

[TSA]

And the crimeans, if they didn't before, now just want to be part of Russia. doesn't look like that from what I'm reading there, definitely not a majority.

[Winehole23]

He said: "I do not see a military option."

Does diplomacy include moving in warships to the Black Sea?we carry a big stick.

[Winehole23]

Oh.
Winehole watched this on a wood burning cable TV. They had MTV in the Pleistocene.The 1992 reference was your bid for cheekiness, but I am a ridiculous fossil for actually being alive at the time and remembering it. :lol:toast

[Winehole23]

also, WTF antiwar Wild Cobra?

[Wild Cobra]

also, WTF antiwar Wild Cobra?
I'm not pro war or antiwar. I believe in using the military at proper times and places. This is not something we should be involved in, unless we are going to support the free will of the people of Crimea. Do you think we should get involved in another Libya?

[Wild Cobra]

Why are you guys supporting a coup d'état by the Western Ukrainians?

I saw this someplace else, so I did a quick search. It is regarding the ousting of the Ukrainian president, that has now been declared a traitor. In their constitution, they did not get 3/4 of their parliament to vote him out. Linked is writing in a law blog:

Russia in Ukraine: A Reader Responds (http://www.lawfareblog.com/2014/03/russia-in-ukraine-a-reader-responds/):


Ascertaining the legitimacy of the interim government in Kiev is quite tricky. According to Article 111 of the Ukrainian constitution, the President can only be impeached from office by parliament through “no less than three-quarters of its constitutional composition.” On February 22, 2014 the Ukrainian parliament voted 328-0 to impeach President Yanukovych who fled to Russia the night prior. However for an effective impeachment under constitutional rules the 449-seated parliament would have needed 337 votes to remove Yanukovych from office. Thus under the current constitution, Yanukovych is still the incumbent and legitimate President of the Ukraine.

It would appear there are problems with their 328-0 vote. Why didn't the other 121 members make it? Were they left out? Threatened? Anyway, 328 of the 449 seats (composition) is only 73%. Not the 75% required by constitution. Here is Title V of their Constitution:

Constitution of Ukraine - Title V (http://www.president.gov.ua/en/content/chapter05.html)

[boutons_deux]

"Why are you guys supporting a coup d'état by the Western Ukrainians?"

for the same reasons I support one for USA. Pootin's puppet was totally corrupt, shipped $Bs abroad, ran an oppressive police state, etc, etc.

[Wild Cobra]

"Why are you guys supporting a coup d'état by the Western Ukrainians?"

for the same reasons I support one for USA. Pootin's puppet was totally corrupt, shipped $Bs abroad, ran an oppressive police state, etc, etc.
The Ukrainians are corrupt too. All you are doing is siding with what the media is spoon feeding you. The Western countries want the Ukraine to join them. Half of the Ukraine doesn't want that. Very few of the Crimea people want that.

It is the western nation, like ours, that are lying and being manipulative.

[boutons_deux]

It is the western nation, like ours, that are lying and being manipulative.

who spoonfed you that?

US/Nato/EU is certainly guilty of provoking Russia and supporting the overthrow of Putin's puppet.

[Wild Cobra]

who spoonfed you that?

US/Nato/EU is certainly guilty of provoking Russia and supporting the overthrow of Putin's puppet.
So, you agree. It was illegally done, right?

Why do you support criminals?

[boutons_deux]

So, you agree. It was illegally done, right?

Why do you support criminals?

yes, just one of the 35+ or so countries the Imperial US/CIA has intruded upon to screw up their politics.

[pgardn]

So, you agree. It was illegally done, right?

Why do you support criminals?

He vacated his office and fled to Russia.
Why did he flee to Russia?

[Wild Cobra]

He vacated his office and fled to Russia.
Why did he flee to Russia?
He was already convicted of treason by the parliament without the required 3/4 vote. They probably would have executed him against the laws of their own constitution.

[pgardn]

He was already convicted of treason by the parliament without the required 3/4 vote. They probably would have executed him against the laws of their own constitution.

He was asked to stop with the police assault by members of parliament, and to call a vote on this and other situations. Even his own party wanted a vote.

[Wild Cobra]

He was asked to stop with the police assault by members of parliament, and to call a vote on this and other situations. Even his own party wanted a vote.
I'm not aware of a police assault. Regardless, they didn't get the required 3/4 vote. With that level of corruption, maybe the allegation was false as well.

[boutons_deux]

Crimea’s Case for Leaving Ukraine


Exclusive: Virtually everyone in Official Washington is condemning Russian “aggression” in Ukraine and demanding a belligerent U.S. response to Crimea’s desire to secede and join Russia, as a new Cold War hysteria grips U.S. pols and pundits, reports Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

If you were living in Crimea, would you prefer to remain part of Ukraine with its coup-installed government – with neo-Nazis running four ministries including the Ministry of Defense – or would you want to become part of Russia, which has had ties to Crimea going back to Catherine the Great in the 1700s?

Granted, it’s not the greatest choice in the world, but it’s the practical one facing you. For all its faults, Russia has a functioning economy while Ukraine really doesn’t. Russia surely has its share of political and financial corruption but some of that has been brought under control.


http://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/crimea-map-300x241.jpg (http://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/crimea-map.jpg)A map showing Crimea (in beige) and its proximity to both the Ukrainian mainland and Russia.


Not so in Ukraine where a moveable feast of some 10 “oligarchs” mostly runs the show in shifting alliances, buying up media outlets and politicians, while the vast majority of the population faces a bleak future, which now includes more European-demanded “austerity,” i.e. slashed pensions and further reductions in already sparse social services.

Even if the U.S.-backed plan for inserting Ukraine into the European Union prevails, Ukrainians would find themselves looking up the socio-economic ladder at the Greeks and other European nationals already living the nightmare of “austerity.”

Beyond that humiliation and misery, the continuing political dislocations across Ukraine would surely feed the further rise of right-wing extremists who espouse not only the goal of expelling ethnic Russians from Ukraine but Jews and other peoples considered not pure Ukrainian.

This troubling racist element of the “inspiring” Ukrainian uprising has been mostly airbrushed from the U.S. media’s narrative, but more honest sources of news have reported this disturbing reality. [For instance, watch this report from the BBC. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY)]

...

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/09/crimeas-case-for-leaving-ukraine/

[pgardn]

I'm not aware of a police assault. Regardless, they didn't get the required 3/4 vote. With that level of corruption, maybe the allegation was false as well.

Read how the trouble in Kiev began peacefully.

After that, the slimy elements got involved as in any country where peaceful protests become riots once violence starts.

[pgardn]

Crimea’s Case for Leaving Ukraine


Exclusive: Virtually everyone in Official Washington is condemning Russian “aggression” in Ukraine and demanding a belligerent U.S. response to Crimea’s desire to secede and join Russia, as a new Cold War hysteria grips U.S. pols and pundits, reports Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

If you were living in Crimea, would you prefer to remain part of Ukraine with its coup-installed government – with neo-Nazis running four ministries including the Ministry of Defense – or would you want to become part of Russia, which has had ties to Crimea going back to Catherine the Great in the 1700s?

Granted, it’s not the greatest choice in the world, but it’s the practical one facing you. For all its faults, Russia has a functioning economy while Ukraine really doesn’t. Russia surely has its share of political and financial corruption but some of that has been brought under control.


http://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/crimea-map-300x241.jpg (http://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/crimea-map.jpg)A map showing Crimea (in beige) and its proximity to both the Ukrainian mainland and Russia.


Not so in Ukraine where a moveable feast of some 10 “oligarchs” mostly runs the show in shifting alliances, buying up media outlets and politicians, while the vast majority of the population faces a bleak future, which now includes more European-demanded “austerity,” i.e. slashed pensions and further reductions in already sparse social services.

Even if the U.S.-backed plan for inserting Ukraine into the European Union prevails, Ukrainians would find themselves looking up the socio-economic ladder at the Greeks and other European nationals already living the nightmare of “austerity.”

Beyond that humiliation and misery, the continuing political dislocations across Ukraine would surely feed the further rise of right-wing extremists who espouse not only the goal of expelling ethnic Russians from Ukraine but Jews and other peoples considered not pure Ukrainian.

This troubling racist element of the “inspiring” Ukrainian uprising has been mostly airbrushed from the U.S. media’s narrative, but more honest sources of news have reported this disturbing reality. [For instance, watch this report from the BBC. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY)]

...

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/09/crimeas-case-for-leaving-ukraine/


Everyone in Washington...

What does Europe say? And they stand to lose a bundle on this. Why don't you read what Poland has to say?

[boutons_deux]

Everyone in Washington...

What does Europe say? And they stand to lose a bundle on this. Why don't you read what Poland has to say?

Western Europe is pretty much compromised, less aggressive than USA trouble-makers, by its dependence on Russian gas.

[Wild Cobra]

Read how the trouble in Kiev began peacefully.

After that, the slimy elements got involved as in any country where peaceful protests become riots once violence starts.

I read that there was a third party, shooting at both the police and protesters. They blamed each other.

[pgardn]

I read that there was a third party, shooting at both the police and protesters. They blamed each other.

Thats further into the conflict, I read reports of that also.

[pgardn]

Western Europe is pretty much compromised, less aggressive than USA trouble-makers, by its dependence on Russian gas.

So Europe would be fine with the whole of Ukraine coming under Russian control as long as they got their gas?

Why did the EU even present a trade package to the Ukraine in the first place? That basically started the ball rolling?

Boots, again an example of your ideological flavor. You don't even remember the basic facts. One could blame the EU as the antagonist in this whole mess.

[boutons_deux]

"So Europe would be fine with the whole of Ukraine coming under Russian control as long as they got their gas?" you said that, you're full of shit

"Why did the EU even present a trade package to the Ukraine in the first place? That basically started the ball rolling?"

the "trade" pkg, or one of the agreements, had effective integration of Ukraine into NATO.

"Boots, again an example of your ideological flavor. You don't even remember the basic facts. One could blame the EU as the antagonist in this whole mess"

you're full of shit

[pgardn]

"So Europe would be fine with the whole of Ukraine coming under Russian control as long as they got their gas?" you said that, you're full of shit

"Why did the EU even present a trade package to the Ukraine in the first place? That basically started the ball rolling?"

the "trade" pkg, or one of the agreements, had effective integration of Ukraine into NATO.

"Boots, again an example of your ideological flavor. You don't even remember the basic facts. One could blame the EU as the antagonist in this whole mess"

you're full of shit

The agreement with the EU being discussed in the Ukranian parliament had nothing to do with joining NATO, absolutely NOTHING!

You are full of shit.

[boutons_deux]

Is NATO's Trojan Horse Riding Toward the 'Ukraine Spring'?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dennis-j-kucinich/ukraine-nato_b_4435637.html

US/NATO strategy is to bring Ukraine into EU and NATO, aka, poking the Russian bear, once again.

[CosmicCowboy]

Boo, there was a vague insinuation of eventual EU membership for Ukraine, but only after trade was opened up and they could meet the financial baseline for membership.