Rasho and Nazr will not be Spurs...

[Marcus Bryant]

...at this time next year. The writing is on the wall. These are still Holt Cat's Spurs. They've grown accustomed to having overspending teams subsidize their payroll through the luxury tax system. They just signed a center for $7.5 mil over 3 years. That's a great deal better than the $30 mil over 4 they are on the hook for to Radoslav or the $50+ mil over 5 or 6 years that Nazr is bound to command in free agency next summer.

Rasho will be dropped for anything. I would not even be surprised if they waive him under the lux tax amnesty clause. The Spurs will either be outbid in free agency next summer for Nazr (they might handle that DA-style) or they will move him before the trade deadline.

Why pay Rasho or Nazr $7.5+ mil a season to do what Oberto will do for $2.5?


We're the Spurs.®

:cooldevil

[Marcus Bryant]

Beyond the contracts and CBA, neither Nazr nor Radoslav fit what the Spurs have in mind for a bigman playing alongside TD. They want someone mobile and agile, a deft passer who can get to the rim and who will run the floor. Oberto fits that description much better than either current Spur center.

Oberto is going to be a crown jewel for the Spurs, a starting center who they have on a cheap contract for 3 seasons while Erick Dampier is averaging $10 mil a season and Nazr is breaking someone else's bank.

[nkdlunch]

Oberto is going to be a crown jewel for the Spurs, a starting center who they have on a cheap contract for 3 seasons while Erick Dampier is averaging $10 mil a season and Nazr is breaking someone else's bank.

Everybody is expecting great things from Oberto. Let's take it slow and see how he adjust to NBA game before claiming his greatness. Not everyone will adjust as easy as Manu did. But as a Spursfan I hope you're right.

I suspect it's gonna take him a while to adjust and early in the season ppl will be crying like little b...s in this forum that Oberto sucks and trade Oberto.

[SWC Bonfire]

early in the season ppl will be crying like little b...s in this forum that Oberto sucks and trade Oberto.


In 5....4....3....2....

[spur219]

Nazr will be asking for too much money. Look for Oberto to be the starting center for a couple of years while Nazr and Rasho get moved.

[Marcus Bryant]

Everybody is expecting great things from Oberto. Let's take it slow and see how he adjust to NBA game before claiming his greatness. Not everyone will adjust as easy as Manu did. But as a Spursfan I hope you're right.

I suspect it's gonna take him a while to adjust and early in the season ppl will be crying like little b...s in this forum that Oberto sucks and trade Oberto.


I'm not expecting him to be great, but he should be able to start in the NBA, which makes both Nazr and Rasho expendable. If not for Oberto, then we'd probably see the Spurs committed to keeping Rasho and then moving Nazr for the best available deal before the trade deadline. The Spurs dealt for Nazr first and foremost because it removed one bigman with a long term guaranteed deal from their books. If you have another guy who can start for you at the 5 and you have TD as your backup 5 why carry yet another on the roster?

Oberto has the potential to save Holt Cat et al a ton of jack.

[SWC Bonfire]

If you have another guy who can start for you at the 5 and you have TD as your backup 5 why carry yet another on the roster?

Reason #1: right ankle
Reason #2: left ankle

[usckk]

But when the deal happened, Rasho was going to be the starting center for the next 4 years. They just wanted Nazr as a cheap 2 year rental.

[Marcus Bryant]

Reason #1: right ankle
Reason #2: left ankle

Reason #3: bad back

Right? Chronic injuries to key bigs haven't influenced the Spurs' personnel moves before.

The Spurs brought in Oberto this summer and will bring in Scola the next. Beyond that they will use some of their international bigs and/or cheap NBA bigs to fill out the rotation.

[Marcus Bryant]

But when the deal happened, Rasho was going to be the starting center for the next 4 years. They just wanted Nazr as a cheap 2 year rental.

Then they found Oberto at $7.5 mil over 3 seasons...

[Sense]

Reason #3: bad back

Right?

The Spurs brought in Oberto this summer and will bring in Scola the next. Beyond that they will use some of their international bigs and/or cheap NBA bigs to fill out the rotation.

Yeah and They'll bring
SAR too....


right?

[Marcus Bryant]

If bringing in SAR helps them trim down the commitment they currently have to Rasho, I would not be surprised to see them make a run at him.

[timvp]

Oberto has the potential to save Holt Cat et al a ton of jack.

True. If Oberto works out and can start, he'd save the Spurs $100M+ when you look at Rasho's contract and the contract they'd have to give Nazr.

If Oberto pans out, I wouldn't be surprised if the rotation is eventually Oberto and Duncan with Horry, Scola and Javtokas/Mahinmi/VeteranCenter backing them up.

[Sense]

If bringing in SAR helps them trim down the commitment they currently have to Rasho, I would not be surprised to see them make a run at him.

I thought they would get him this offseason....


That was my point...

I know these seem to be your opinions and "facts" make you look legit.. but you never know what happens in the long run..


For all we know Rasho and Nazr are signing right now.

[Marcus Bryant]

They're trying to drop Rasho for nothing. The primary desire in moving Rose was the length and amount committed to him.

The "facts" fit.

[SWC Bonfire]

Reason #3: bad back

Right? Chronic injuries to key bigs haven't influenced the Spurs' personnel moves before.

They didn't have 2nd & 3rd "stars" when DRob went down. It was also pretty obvious that he was done for the year, whereas everyone knew Timmy would (try to) be back.

[ChumpDumper]

Maybe they won't be back -- alot depends on future revenues and the cap, and how much Nazr might end up wanting as a free agent.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

he Spurs dealt for Nazr first and foremost because it removed one bigman with a long term guaranteed deal from their books.

While I agree with the original intent, the Spurs got themselves a player - a pleasant surprise - and you don't know that their plans haven't changed.

The fact they are shopping Rasho while E-N insiders are saying Nazr is our starting center for next year leads me to believe they'd like to keep the guy.

Perhaps they've already reached a handshake deal with him and his agent to give him more money than the 40 mil he could have gotten signing an extension this summer?

[CaptainLate]

Nazr will be asking for too much money. Look for Oberto to be the starting center for a couple of years while Nazr and Rasho get moved.

If Oberto is working out and we still have Rasho, I'd think we could trade Nazr in February to a lottery team for a FRP. (First Round Pick)

[CaptainLate]

I'm not expecting him to be great, but he should be able to start in the NBA, which makes both Nazr and Rasho expendable....If you have another guy who can start for you at the 5 and you have TD as your backup 5 why carry yet another on the roster?

Because Rasho does well against Yao and Shaq, neither of whom TD desired to have to deal with.

[SWC Bonfire]

Perhaps they've already reached a handshake deal with him and his agent to give him more money than the 40 mil he could have gotten signing an extension this summer?

I doubt any front office puts much weight on a handshake deal in the NBA anymore after Carlos Boozer.

[Sense]

If Oberto is working out and we still have Rasho, I'd think we could trade Nazr in February to a lottery team for a FRP. (First Round Pick)


Nazr for a first round pick?


WTF?

[Marcus Bryant]

Why keep Nazr for $50+ mil over 5 or 6 seasons when you have a guy making $2.5 mil a season who can do the job? The Spurs haven't always had two relatively young centers who can start on the roster in addition to TD. That was just for the last half of last season.

As much as Holt Cat bitched about TP's extension last summer, is it going to be surprising that they drop a potentially expensive non-star role player? Rose was run out of town because he had too much guaranteed salary over too many years.

These are still your San Antonio Spurs...

[boutons]

"when you have a guy making $2.5 mil a season who can do the job"

so far and until at least Christmas or beyond, that's only wishful thinking.

[Marcus Bryant]

They didn't have 2nd & 3rd "stars" when DRob went down. It was also pretty obvious that he was done for the year, whereas everyone knew Timmy would (try to) be back.


I was referring to the time when the 6'5" Malik Rose was backing up DRob and occassionally starting in place of him due to said bad back.

[Marcus Bryant]

"when you have a guy making $2.5 mil a season who can do the job"

so far and until at least Christmas or beyond, that's only wishful thinking.


Given how the Spurs are so hot on dropping Rasho, it was Christmas in July when Oberto agreed to be a Spur for $2.5 mil a season...

[picnroll]

I think the situation is fluid and depends on several factors:
1) How Oberto plays. Personally I'm more confidnet his play will translate well to the NBA and the Spurs than Scola. He's more physical, aggressive and agile than Rasho and has a better BBall IQ than Nazr. If he's good he solves the Spurs third good bigman need. If not ...

2) How much will Nazr progress in playing the Spurs' defensive system? How much will he cost if he does? Can Rasho's contract be unloaded without bringing maoney back? If Nazr can't improve on playing the Spurs scheme adios Nazr. If Spurs can't free up money adios Nazr. If Nazr commands a big salary adios Nazr.

Ultimately it will comne down to a Nazr cost:effective, Oberto cost:effectiveness, Rasho unload equation

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Duncan as back-up center? NOOOOO! The Spurs made a concerted effort to limit Tim's minutes this season (although that doesn't help much when you roll an ankle the first two minutes of a game). Tim's still an incredible talent, but he's playing on a surgically repaired knee and plus those wacky ankles of his. I know they are supposed to make a full recovery but I"m going to be nervous just about every time he leaves his feet this year. Bottom line, even if you don't think that Nazr and Rasho are the right guys for the job here, Tim is not the answer as a back up center.

[JUUOT]

Timvp, i had the same line up on my paper.

end of 05-06
duncan nazr
oberto horry

end of 06-07
Duncan Oberto
scola horry javtokas

end of 07-08
Duncan Oberto
Scola Ian Javtokas

if oberto is not who we thought he could be you have to pay nazr next summer. however during the 07 summer you can trade him cause ian arrives...

[Marcus Bryant]

Duncan as back-up center? NOOOOO! The Spurs made a concerted effort to limit Tim's minutes this season (although that doesn't help much when you roll an ankle the first two minutes of a game). Tim's still an incredible talent, but he's playing on a surgically repaired knee and plus those wacky ankles of his. I know they are supposed to make a full recovery but I"m going to be nervous just about every time he leaves his feet this year. Bottom line, even if you don't think that Nazr and Rasho are the right guys for the job here, Tim is not the answer as a back up center.


:wtf

Duncan's always been the backup 5.

[Sense]

:wtf

Duncan's always been the backup 5.

Well technically... he hasn't played alot of minutes as a 5... unless they play a small team,then wouldn't affect Tim much.

[timvp]

Anytime Horry and Tim or on the court, Tim is playing center. In other words, in every fourth quarter of every playoff game.

[Marcus Bryant]

Whenever Horry (or Rose) came in for the starting 5, TD slid to the 5. He's seen roughly half of his minutes over the last couple of seasons at the 5.

[Sense]

Whenever Horry (or Rose) came in for the starting 5, TD slid to the 5. He's seen roughly half of his minutes over the last couple of seasons at the 5.

I'd go with 1/3.

[Marcus Bryant]

It's closer to half. This is why the Spurs have never placed much importance in having a strong backup center during TD's career and it's why the Spurs' primary bigman backup has been 6'4" tall Malik Rose or 225 lbs. small forward Robert Horry.

[SWC Bonfire]

end of 07-08
Duncan Oberto
Scola Ian Javtokas

if oberto is not who we thought he could be you have to pay nazr next summer. however during the 07 summer you can trade him cause ian arrives...

You think Ian factors into their decisions that quickly? The dude could be a stud, but he's still a frickin' teenager. I think he'll be a little farther down the line.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I'm not saying that Tim has never played back-up center, I'm just saying that trimming down his minutes worked well for the Spurs this year, and they can do that better with at least Rasho and/or Nazr on the team. And as other things have said Oberto is something of a question mark at the moment. If there are teams that want them now chances are there are teams that are going to want them in January.

[Marcus Bryant]

With Oberto, Nazr and Horry in the rotation (for at least part of) next season, his minutes will be fine. Then next season Nazr is gone and Scola is here.

No mas problema.

[spurster]

Why pay Rasho or Nazr $7.5+ mil a season to do what Oberto will do for $2.5?

Indeed. Dumping Rasho and letting Nazr go is a sure way to get out lux tax terrority. Bring in Scola for the 2006-7 season and you have a cheaper bigman rotation with a lot more offensive punch.

If Oberto and Scola pan out.

I suppose another way of looking at it is that the Spurs could gamble and be in lux tax land (big contract for Nazr, hoping he will continue to play at a reasonable level) or gamble and be lux tax free (Oberto and Scola).

[Marcus Bryant]

When you consider how the Spurs have operated from a financial perspective as well as from a basketball persective recently, one does not see them spending a ton of $ on additional centers other than the one in the starting lineup. The Spurs seem to think that Oberto can start in this league. They will have Nazr to offer around the league to see what they can get to address other needs up until next season's trade deadline.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If we're going to lose Nazr I hope we at least get our long Bowen replacement out of that.

[Marcus Bryant]

You would think...

[Marcus Bryant]

Another way to think about it, the Spurs won a championship without that much of a contribution at all from their starting 5 or the 5 on the bench. Also, Nazr was not that great against the Pistons, the one team who at first glance you would expect to need strong play from the starting 5 to beat.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

True, but at the same time we're not going to have Robert Horry around for the rest of Duncan's prime either.

(and Nazr did average 8 and 7 in the Finals, I'd argue that was a good contribution).

[Marcus Bryant]

Rasho and Nazr seem more like old school centers. The league seems headed towards the more mobile and offensively skilled bigman. Oberto and Scola fit that profile better than Nazr and Rasho.

[Mark in Austin]

Just like Malik, Rasho will most likely be gone because his production does not justify his salary in the Spurs minds. If Rasho was putting up 10 and 8, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

And even though Marcus is in denial about it, if Malik had been making the same consistent contributions to the team last year that he made the year before signing his new contract, he would still be here too.

[Marcus Bryant]

The Spurs decided that a bench player making the MLE for the next 4 seasons was not desirable once it was clear what Manu and TP would cost to retain long term. Also, with Horry around they had someone who could fit the role more cheaply.

So yes, it's basically the same situation today. Rasho and Nazr will be gone because Oberto will cost less.

[Pistonfan1]

...at this time next year. The writing is on the wall. These are still Holt Cat's Spurs. They've grown accustomed to having overspending teams subsidize their payroll through the luxury tax system. They just signed a center for $7.5 mil over 3 years. That's a great deal better than the $30 mil over 4 they are on the hook for to Radoslav or the $50+ mil over 5 or 6 years that Nazr is bound to command in free agency next summer.

Rasho will be dropped for anything. I would not even be surprised if they waive him under the lux tax amnesty clause. The Spurs will either be outbid in free agency next summer for Nazr (they might handle that DA-style) or they will move him before the trade deadline.

Why pay Rasho or Nazr $7.5+ mil a season to do what Oberto will do for $2.5?


We're the Spurs.®

:cooldevil


Okay so you are saying youll lose Rasho and Nazr and have oberto as the only starting center left?? As a Piston fan I wished you were the Spurs GM so I could laugh at you trying to break up the team. God even as a Piston fan if you cut Rasho thats a stupid decision and if you get both of your centers for nothing thats even worse. You are not that much over the tax in fact I dont think your even at the threshhold.

[Marcus Bryant]

Okay so you are saying youll lose Rasho and Nazr and have oberto as the only starting center left??


That's what seems to be unfolding. Don't forget Duncan, he'd be the other center on the roster.




As a Piston fan I wished you were the Spurs GM so I could laugh at you trying to break up the team. God even as a Piston fan if you cut Rasho thats a stupid decision and if you get both of your centers for nothing thats even worse. You are not that much over the tax in fact I dont think your even at the threshhold.

Apparently as a Piston fan you have trouble understanding that just because someone states that something is going to happen, that does not necessarily mean that they endorse it.

I will say that the Spurs are a lot more exposed to the luxury tax than Piston fan seems able to understand.

[picnroll]

It's seems like the general trend is for more teams to not go flagrantly over the luxury tax limit. Even Cuban and Allen seemed to be getting religion.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I think its stupid to go making predictions like this when noone knows what Fabricio can do on an NBA floor--INCLUDING the spurs front office

this is like when half of the forum was sucking Scola's D for being the future savior of the spurs

[Marcus Bryant]

Just like it would be stupid to be giving up Rasho when you don't know what Oberto can do in the NBA, right?

Oops.

It's clear how this is going to unfold. Nobody in the league wants to help the Spurs make even more $ while they are winning championships, so it's going to be tough for them to move Rasho. But they will find a way, eventually. Nazr will be moved or lost in free agency. Maybe the Spurs will offer him a partially guaranteed deal just like they did with DA.

[CaptainLate]

Nazr for a first round pick?


WTF?

If you have people desperate enough to think he's worth $70-80mil, the sky's the limit.

[Marcus Bryant]

Nazr could potentially garner a 1st rounder from a lotto team.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I dont think the front office signed fabricio to that cheap deal thinking that this is their center after losing nazr and rasho

Nazr will get good offers next summer, but come on....the entire nation saw his weaknesses just as easily as we did, including other team's front offices

he has no post moves, pump fakes like a 4th grader, etc

so like it was said, he would have to have a bad ass season to get good offers

if he DOES have a bad ass season, we'll repeat...
and if that happens, then ok i wont mind losing him as much heh

[Marcus Bryant]

Did the Spurs sign Manu to a small deal thinking that he was nothing? Nope. They did it because they could.

It's not unheard of that the Spurs could end up with a starting quality center on the cheap. Every team knew about Tony Parker back in 2001. Three or four teams in dire need of a point guard passed on him in the first round.

The Spurs have proven to be somewhat better than the average NBA front office when it comes to evaluating international talent. Given how they are proceeding so far in this offseason, they seem to think that Oberto is the real deal.

[CaptainLate]

The Spurs made a concerted effort to limit Tim's minutes this season (although that doesn't help much when you roll an ankle the first two minutes of a game). Tim's still an incredible talent, but he's playing on a surgically repaired knee and plus those wacky ankles of his. I know they are supposed to make a full recovery but I"m going to be nervous just about every time he leaves his feet this year.

The effort to limit his minutes were due to Tim's idiotic notion to play in the Olympics. You can blame weak ankles for that, too, along with all the other b-ball he's been playing. Tim should now realize that in his prime he better start taking care of his body and not his pride.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

the entire nation saw his weaknesses just as easily as we did, including other team's front offices

he has no post moves, pump fakes like a 4th grader, etc

At least the league's front offices were smart enough to realize he was playing on a bum wheel against the league's best defensive center, something you are apparently unwilling to recognize.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Did the Spurs sign Manu to a small deal thinking that he was nothing? Nope. They did it because they could.

It's not unheard of that the Spurs could end up with a starting quality center on the cheap. Every team knew about Tony Parker back in 2001. Three or four teams in dire need of a point guard passed on him in the first round.

The Spurs have proven to be somewhat better than the average NBA front office when it comes to evaluating international talent. Given how they are proceeding so far in this offseason, they seem to think that Oberto is the real deal.


Yeah but I dont think we can compare manu to fabricio. Manu was already hailed as one of the best leaders and guards ever wasnt he?

The FO is better than most other FO's, but they've been keeping the wool over the other team's eyes for a while now, I just find it hard to believe that other teams have not caught on to evaluating foreign talent better.

I read something either on woai or mysanantonio about how fabricio might even play PF instead of C due to size issues

how is this what we need?

[Marcus Bryant]

Oberto was regarded as one of the best, if not the best, centers in Europe.

Oberto is 6'10" and 245 lbs.

Nazr? 6'10" and 250 lbs.

[Mark in Austin]

Maybe the Spurs will offer him a partially guaranteed deal just like they did with DA.

If he starts mouthing off to the press about playing time in the playoffs, I hope they do. Actually, I hope they waive his ass that day.

Marcus, you do realized that PAUL IhavemoremoneythanGod FUCKING ALLEN just waived DA and the last two years of that contract he got, right?

Seems to me like the partially guaranteed deal the Spurs offered was pretty damn accurate...


Look, I think that considering the lux tax threshold as an absolute hard cap limit is not the proper way to ensure additional trips to the finals in the Duncan era. In fact, it is total crap. However, I won't exactly be crying to see Rasho go, and I wasn't crying about losing what Malik was bringing to the court last year. I agree with those decisions.

Nazr is another story. If he plays well this year the true test for the ownership group will come next summer. If they let Nazr walk instead of signing him, that's when you have something to really bitch about.

All the Spurs have done to this point is get rid of one inconsistent player spending more time on the bench and in the coaching doghouse each year, and try to get rid of a center that spent the first half of the season playing like he's getting estrogen replacement therapy and then lost his starting spot to a guy who didn't even know the playbook and has hands worse than Malik's.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Hmm
Why didn't our team make a run out Swift this offseason? I'm still baffled that he was signed for the freaking MLE.

IMO, that is what the spurs need, an athletic center who can clean up Tim's 4-5 missed shots a game..
Is Fabricio noted for being athletic? (in other words can he get more than 3 inches off the ground so that he can dunk it)

[timvp]

At least the league's front offices were smart enough to realize he was playing on a bum wheel against the league's best defensive center, something you are apparently unwilling to recognize.

What was the bum wheel? The groin he hurt like in December or the mild calf strain he suffered like in March?

[CaptainLate]

At least the league's front offices were smart enough to realize he was playing on a bum wheel against the league's best defensive center, something you are apparently unwilling to recognize.

Nazr had a bum wheel? Or are you talking about the groin thing?

[Marcus Bryant]

If he starts mouthing off to the press about playing time in the playoffs, I hope they do. Actually, I hope they waive his ass that day.

Marcus, you do realized that PAUL IhavemoremoneythanGod FUCKING ALLEN just waived DA and the last two years of that contract he got, right?

Seems to me like the partially guaranteed deal the Spurs offered was pretty damn accurate...


Not that I disagreed with the move, but let's understand that the Spurs never wanted him back to begin with. That was the point of my reference.




Look, I think that considering the lux tax threshold as an absolute hard cap limit is not the proper way to ensure additional trips to the finals in the Duncan era. In fact, it is total crap. However, I won't exactly be crying to see Rasho go, and I wasn't crying about losing what Malik was bringing to the court last year. I agree with those decisions.

Nazr is another story. If he plays well this year the true test for the ownership group will come next summer. If they let Nazr walk instead of signing him, that's when you have something to really bitch about.


The point is that they have already been making basketball decisions based on contract size, first and foremost. I'd say Rose handled the situation rather well, all things considered.



All the Spurs have done to this point is get rid of one inconsistent player spending more time on the bench and in the coaching doghouse each year, and try to get rid of a center that spent the first half of the season playing like he's getting estrogen replacement therapy and then lost his starting spot to a guy who didn't even know the playbook and has hands worse than Malik's.

What was happening on the court and in the lockerroom with respect to Malik was not immune from what was happening in the front office. The Spurs hung that deal over his head from day one.

[CaptainLate]

Yeah but I dont think we can compare manu to fabricio. Manu was already hailed as one of the best leaders and guards ever wasnt he?

The FO is better than most other FO's, but they've been keeping the wool over the other team's eyes for a while now, I just find it hard to believe that other teams have not caught on to evaluating foreign talent better.

You can't compare positions, true. But it was also said (mysa.com) that Oberto was "the man" on the nat'l team when the Spurs were scouting Manu way back when.

[kevm2]

So we're going to give up TWO of our starting-quality centers for one that hasn't played a single game in the NBA yet?

[Marcus Bryant]

So we're going to give up TWO of our starting-quality centers for one that hasn't played a single game in the NBA yet?

Yes, but don't shoot the messenger.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

So we're going to give up TWO of our starting-quality centers for one that hasn't played a single game in the NBA yet?


thats what im thinking
no matter how good scouting reports can be, he still hasnt played on an NBA court once

[Mark in Austin]

Not that I disagreed with the move, but let's understand that the Spurs never wanted him back to begin with. That was the point of my reference.

No. They didn't want him back for the price he was asking. If they wanted to ensure that they would be rid of him, they wouldn't have offered a contract at all. The Spurs offered a deal commensurate with what they thought he was worth.



The point is that they have already been making basketball decisions based on contract size, first and foremost. I'd say Rose handled the situation rather well, all things considered.

In what way? Malik was still on the team, and had opportunities to play well in games and get himself back in the rotation. Guess what - he didn't play well. Rose handled being traded rather well, no doubt about that. But the previous season and a half? He didn't handle it well at all. The Spurs gave him a contract and said "this is for doing what you do. Keep doing it, we need your skill set on this team." Then Malik went out and decided to change his game. Is it the Spurs fault he did this? No way. One of two things happened. Either Malik made a conscious decision to change the way her played, which would be pretty unprofessional given what the Spurs wanted him to play like; or he felt pressure to change his game to justify his contract, which just means he is weak mentally. If a team gives you a contract and says "this is for playing the way you did last year. Keep doing that, baby. That is what we want to pay you for." and despite this you feel "pressure" to change the way you play, what does that say about you?



What was happening on the court and in the lockerroom with respect to Malik was not immune from what was happening in the front office. The Spurs hung that deal over his head from day one.

Proof? Show me something, anything where the Spurs asked him to do anything more or play any differently than how he played when he earned that contract. The only thing the Spurs ever hung over his head publically was when he was playing with his head up his ass, something that he did FAR less frequently before he signed the contract.

If Malik couldn't handle the pressure of getting paid more $ for performing in the same way and at the same level that he did before signing his deal, that's on Malik, not the Spurs.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I consider the wheel to be the leg.

He had the groin thing, then the calf thing, there was even a report in one of the game recaps for either the Seattle or Phoenix series where Monroe or Harvey were mentioned his leg injury.

[Sense]

If you have people desperate enough to think he's worth $70-80mil, the sky's the limit.


I ment to say you are giving him away..


a first round pick is not "the sky's the limit".

[timvp]

Proof? Show me something, anything where the Spurs asked him to do anything more or play any differently than how he played when he earned that contract. The only thing the Spurs ever hung over his head publically was when he was playing with his head up his ass, something that he did FAR less frequently before he signed the contract.

If Malik couldn't handle the pressure of getting paid more $ for performing in the same way and at the same level that he did before signing his deal, that's on Malik, not the Spurs.

Rose's best season came the year after he signed his big contract. In 2002-03 Rose played at a high level and was huge in the playoffs. Spurs fans either don't remember that, don't want to remember that or have their dates confused.

After that season ended, the Spurs started to try to trade him. They wanted to go after Kidd, JO'Neal and whoever else was a free agent that summer. Getting Rose's contract off the books would have helped in those regards.

The next season, Horry came to town and the Spurs had their out. They had a more experienced, taller playoff legend at a cheaper price. That's when the trade rumors were no longer rumors ... they were facts. So Rose had to deal with a player brought in to beat him out, the pressure of producing with his contract AND constant trade rumors. His minutes become more sporadic and he eventually failed.

The Spurs got exactly what they wanted. They got rid of the long-term contract Rose had and replaced him with a minimum salary veteran. The fans were mad, but not as mad as they would have been if Rose hadn't been hung out to dry for the previous one and a half years. No one could have produced at the level the contract demanded coming off the bench while fighting with Horry for minutes.

The Spurs are damn smart. Don't think any of this happens by accident. They traded away Rose and inserted a cheap veteran in his place.

Now the ironic thing is they're hoping the exact same thing happens with Mohammed. They have a cheap veteran who will compete with Mohammed for minutes. When Mohammed becomes a free-agent, the Spurs can play the greed card and hang Mohammed out to dry. This time, Oberto can fill in his role and the Spurs again are able to cut salaries and come out smelling like roses (no put intended).





P.S.

Also do not forget about the reasons the Spurs gave Rose the contract in the first place. It was a show of good faith to Tim Duncan (signing his best friend and proving they are willing to spend money) and it was to keep Rose away from the Lakers. The Lakers actually offered more money to Rose, but he picked SA.

[Marcus Bryant]

timvp handled the Rose issue quite well, so I will deal with the DA one.


No. They didn't want him back for the price he was asking. If they wanted to ensure that they would be rid of him, they wouldn't have offered a contract at all. The Spurs offered a deal commensurate with what they thought he was worth.

His market rate at the time was a long term deal for $40 to 45 mil, completely guaranteed. The Spurs were dicking him around. Yes, he whined about it a lot publicly, but it's clear that the Spurs did not want him back and wanted him to find them a good sign and trade deal. They were offering only 4 years guaranteed and the rest non-guaranteed plus performance clauses and what not. It was a bogus offer. They didn't want him back. If they did they would've come with the years at the start.

But they still were able to go to the public with a '6 year deal for $42 mil' offer to him.

Sure, they were right about him not being a good long term contract candidate. I have yet to disagree with that. But they wanted him gone.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The Spurs are damn smart. Don't think any of this happens by accident. They traded away Rose and inserted a cheap veteran in his place.

Cheap vet? You talk about it like we replaced him with Tony Massenberg.

We replaced Rose with Robert Freakin' Horry. Without the guy, we'd be picking up the pieces trying to figure out what went wrong this past playoffs.

But hey, Horry was just some scrub vet brought in to displace Rose on the cheap, all part of some dubious management plot :lol

[timvp]

:wtf

What part of cheap veteran did you not understand? Horry made $1.1M last season. Horry is a veteran. Add it up.

And I never said it was a bad move. In fact, it turned out to be a good move. Horry stepped up and Mohammed turned out to be a solid starter. Like I said, the Spurs are smart and they know how to play the system.

Now watch the next step. Oberto will be the cheap replacement for Nazr Mohammed. If everything works out like the Spurs hope, Baby Hakeem will be the way of the dodo bird after this season.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Who cares about cost? Who would you say is better? Rose or Horry?

[timvp]

Who cares about cost? Who would you say is better? Rose or Horry?

Exactly.

The same tune will be heard next summer. Same song, different chorus.







P.S.

Believe me, if Horry had a seven-year $42M contract, they'd try to ship his azz out before you could finish replying to this post.

[AFE7FATMAN]

...at this time next year. The writing is on the wall. These are still Holt Cat's Spurs. They've grown accustomed to having overspending teams subsidize their payroll through the luxury tax system. They just signed a center for $7.5 mil over 3 years. That's a great deal better than the $30 mil over 4 they are on the hook for to Radoslav or the $50+ mil over 5 or 6 years that Nazr is bound to command in free agency next summer.

Rasho will be dropped for anything. I would not even be surprised if they waive him under the lux tax amnesty clause. The Spurs will either be outbid in free agency next summer for Nazr (they might handle that DA-style) or they will move him before the trade deadline.

Why pay Rasho or Nazr $7.5+ mil a season to do what Oberto will do for $2.5?


We're the Spurs.®

:cooldevil
On the $ , in addition Javtokas will be brought in Cheap to be Oberto's backup.- Take it to the bank.

[ChumpDumper]

The Lakers actually offered more money to Rose, but he picked SA.How could they have offered more?

[timvp]

How could they have offered more?

IIRC, the Lakers offered him six-years, $42M. The Spurs offered him seven-years, $42M.

[Dex]

At least Rose finally has some job security now.

Under Brown's system, it seems that half of the Knick's roster is on the trading block. For the first time in years, Malik probably isn't one of them. Now he just has to avoid that whole doghouse thing, and he'll be in good shape.

...but he still makes a damn good sammich.

[spurster]

What part of cheap veteran did you not understand? Horry made $1.1M last season. Horry is a veteran. Add it up.
Didn't Horry get the MLE in 2003-4 before getting the min last year? Now this year Horry's salary is somewhere close to MLE level.

While that's still cheap, it's not all minimum salary.

[Marcus Bryant]

In the end, Oberto's contract is less than Nesterovic's and Scola's will be less than Nazr's. The Spurs can fill the starting 5 and the second bench bigman spots much more cheaply with the Argentines than with Nazr and Rasho.

When in doubt, go cheap.

It won't matter how well Nazr plays next season. He's gone by the end of it, if not in late February.

[Mark in Austin]

Rose's best season came the year after he signed his big contract. In 2002-03 Rose played at a high level and was huge in the playoffs. Spurs fans either don't remember that, don't want to remember that or have their dates confused.

I had my dates confused. I fully acknowledge and appreciate the contributions Malik made in '03. He was huge in the playoffs for the Spurs, and had a hell of a year.


After that season ended, the Spurs started to try to trade him. They wanted to go after Kidd, JO'Neal and whoever else was a free agent that summer. Getting Rose's contract off the books would have helped in those regards.

That makes sense. If they had signed somebody to the max offer sheet, I could see them exploring filling Rose's salary slot with more than one player.


The next season, Horry came to town and the Spurs had their out. They had a more experienced, taller playoff legend at a cheaper price.

That season, Horry made 4.5 million and Rose made 4.9 million. If Horry's shots had gone down in the playoffs and the Spurs had beat LA and played well in the finals, do you really think Horry would have resigned for the minimum like he did? Maybe he would have come cheaper than Rose, but the Spurs didn't know that they would get him for the minimum (4.3 million less than Rose's salary) that next summer during the season.


That's when the trade rumors were no longer rumors ... they were facts. So Rose had to deal with a player brought in to beat him out, the pressure of producing with his contract AND constant trade rumors. His minutes become more sporadic and he eventually failed.

Last I checked, Horry plays a different game than Rose. If the Spurs had brought in Jerome Williams, then I think this would be a fair statement. But Malik's role was never to be a clutch three point shooter that would keep defenses honest, and Horry wasn't brought in for his physical work down low and a 110% hustle approach to the game. If Rose had kept playing like he did in 02-03 (thanks for the correction on the dates, timvp) he would have been a lot harder for the Spurs to trade. If he had played like that Malik this past year when Rasho's balls retracted into his body, a Malik who was able to step in and effectively spell Big Dave for 24.5 minutes a game, would the Spurs still have traded him? I would say no.

Contract pressure isn't an excuse for changing your game. First, as Marcus has been so fond of pointing out, it wasn't an outrageous contract for a big man who plays 20+ minutes a game the way Rose did on '03. Second, I repeat my earlier statement that you didn't answer, timvp: Proof? Show me something, anything where the Spurs asked Rose to do anything more or play any differently than how he played when he earned that contract. Nobody asked Malik to play Horry's game. They wanted him to play his game. If Malik had done so, there would have been plenty of minutes in the lineup for both him and Horry, especially with Rasho disappearing the way he did.

Was there added pressure? yes. There's no denying that Horry would take some of his minutes. There's also no denying that the Spurs were open to the idea of moving him. But this isn't that uncommon of a situation. Malik could have used that pressure as motivation to show the Spurs just how valuable he was to the team. Unfortunately, he responded to it in the wrong way. But again, that's on Malik, not the Spurs.


The Spurs got exactly what they wanted. They got rid of the long-term contract Rose had and replaced him with a minimum salary veteran. The fans were mad, but not as mad as they would have been if Rose hadn't been hung out to dry for the previous one and a half years. No one could have produced at the level the contract demanded coming off the bench while fighting with Horry for minutes.

When was he hung out to dry? When Pop would praise him when he played well and bench his ass when he played like a fool? Does it suck to hear that you might get traded? No doubt about it. Does it suck to know you aren't the only backup bigman option, and that the other guy has skills you don't have? Sure. But how is that an excuse for changing the way you play when all you are being asked to do is play your game? For me the bottom line is that Malik was put in a difficult spot. But how he responded to his situation made the situation much worse, not better. If Malik was performing at his 2003 level this past year, Pop could have played him for 20 minutes a night without any problems. Rasho and Tim together averaged only 58 minutes of a possible 96 minutes. 38 minutes is plenty of time left over for Horry and Rose.


The Spurs are damn smart. Don't think any of this happens by accident. They traded away Rose and inserted a cheap veteran in his place.

Now the ironic thing is they're hoping the exact same thing happens with Mohammed. They have a cheap veteran who will compete with Mohammed for minutes. When Mohammed becomes a free-agent, the Spurs can play the greed card and hang Mohammed out to dry. This time, Oberto can fill in his role and the Spurs again are able to cut salaries and come out smelling like roses (no put intended).


I would have traded Malik too. He wasn't contributing to the team the way he used to. He let the pressure get to him and it changed him. And that change made him more expendable. And if Oberto outplays Mohammed, then it makes a whole lot of sense to let Nazr walk or sign and trade him.

Like I posted earlier though, none of this proves anything beyond the fact that the Spurs are making decisions based on maximizing the talent to cost ratio. But if Nazr outplays Oberto next season? Then we'll be able to see what the front office is all about.






P.S.

Also do not forget about the reasons the Spurs gave Rose the contract in the first place. It was a show of good faith to Tim Duncan (signing his best friend and proving they are willing to spend money) and it was to keep Rose away from the Lakers. The Lakers actually offered more money to Rose, but he picked SA.

It wasn't just about those things. Rose earned that contract legitimately - why else would the Lakers be willing to offer even more? It was a nice bonus to show Tim that they were willing to pay, but they would have let him walk if they didn't think he could contribute. I seem to remember that Tim's other best friend, Antonio Daniels, was traded when it was obvious that he wasn't going to work out.


It would be one thing if the Spurs were Donald Sterling cheap. But they've proven they aren't repeatedly. They will have a team payroll in the top ten in the league next year. What they are, like timvp said, is damn smart. They won't overpay for talent because they know what that can do to a team long term. But that doesn't mean that they go out and sabotage players careers to sign them on the cheap or justify getting rid of them. That is the exact opposite of the kind of thing Pop believes in, by every account I have ever read, heard, or seen about him. How could he have developed a unique reputation among players as a straight shooter if he was doing this? How could he have ever bonded with a man like Tim as closely as he has if this was his M.O.?

[Rydia]

Because Rasho does well against Yao and Shaq, neither of whom TD desired to have to deal with.
Yeah!! Word! I vote to keep Rasho...he's the man! He played in TONS of games this season...of course he wasn't as good as last year....Manu went crazy! You can't have ten high scorers!

:elephant

[smeagol]

With Oberto, Nazr and Horry in the rotation (for at least part of) next season, his minutes will be fine. Then next season Nazr is gone and Scola is here.

No mas problema.
If Marcus' scenario turns out to be correct, the Spurs could play some home games in Buenos Aires. BA will definitly feel like SA.

[spurster]

That season, Horry made 4.5 million and Rose made 4.9 million. If Horry's shots had gone down in the playoffs and the Spurs had beat LA and played well in the finals, do you really think Horry would have resigned for the minimum like he did? Maybe he would have come cheaper than Rose, but the Spurs didn't know that they would get him for the minimum (4.3 million less than Rose's salary) that next summer during the season.
Didn't the Spurs have an option on Horry? Didn't they refuse it in Summer 2004 to get cap space to sign Manu? Maybe they would have done that anyway, but Horry would have been able to get more than min salary elsewhere if he hit his shots for the Spurs.

[timvp]

Bump.




Marcus Bryant laid some ownage in this thread.

[Solid D]

True. NostraMarcus.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/nos/nos.jpg

[T Park]

He didn't think though the Spurs would replace em with a young guy in Jackie, or Elson.

[Marcus Bryant]

He didn't think though the Spurs would replace em with a young guy in Jackie, or Elson.

Who's starting?

[T Park]

because hes earned it.

Once again, I thought you implied he was gonna just be put in there, because hes cheap.

He earned the job out of training camp, and has played fantastic.

I don't understand the point of it...

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't understand the point of it...

Not surprising.

[T Park]

Not suprising you couldn't keep it civil nor adult either.

[smeagol]

:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap @ MB

[Marcus Bryant]

Not suprising you couldn't keep it civil nor adult either.

:baby

[Kori Ellis]

because hes earned it.

Once again, I thought you implied he was gonna just be put in there, because hes cheap.
He earned the job out of training camp, and has played fantastic.

I don't understand the point of it...


Read the second post in this thread by MB ...


Beyond the contracts and CBA, neither Nazr nor Radoslav fit what the Spurs have in mind for a bigman playing alongside TD. They want someone mobile and agile, a deft passer who can get to the rim and who will run the floor. Oberto fits that description much better than either current Spur center.

[smeagol]

He didn't think though the Spurs would replace em with a young guy in Jackie, or Elson.
MB tells the board the future regarding three key players one year before events unravel and you bring up a meaningless point regarding Butler and Elson.

Then you wonder why people respond to you the way they do :rolleyes

[T Park]

Your premise was that Oberto would get the starting job, due to the SPurs just saying "hes cheap we will start him"

Except they also signed Francisco Elson and Jackie Butler.

They could've easily won the job and spoiled all this.

Fabricio won it from good play, not cause he was cheaper.

[T Park]

MB tells the board the future regarding three key players one year before events unravel and you bring up a meaningless point regarding Butler and Elson.

Then you wonder why people respond to you the way they do


It was a great prediction, I give him props.



I've been nothing more than civil, and thats the response Ive only expected.

Nice of you to typically make it about me though, quit the stalker routine.


Beyond the contracts and CBA, neither Nazr nor Radoslav fit what the Spurs have in mind for a bigman playing alongside TD. They want someone mobile and agile, a deft passer who can get to the rim and who will run the floor. Oberto fits that description much better than either current Spur center.



Great assessment from MB as always.

I apologize for misinterpreting that this was one of his bash Holt topics, but was rather one that forsaw they would change the team to be better.

Props to Marcus.

[smeagol]

Props to Marcus.
That's more like it :spin

[Marcus Bryant]

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/C/htmlC/cheers/cheersIMAGE/cheers.jpg

[InAmerica]

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/C/htmlC/cheers/cheersIMAGE/cheers.jpg

Holy shit dude, you have 1,007,968 post =/.. First time I ever see someone with that many posts in America.

[exstatic]

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/C/htmlC/cheers/cheersIMAGE/cheers.jpg
'Sup, playah?
:fro

[Marcus Bryant]

nm

[MannyIsGod]

:lol

Nice.

[adidas11]

Good to see that Marcus Bryant/SpursFan/Dognazty is back.