Gregg Popovich Could Win CotY Every Year

[Sybok]

Is anyone else even close?

[elmanutres]

nope. Hornacek is taking it

[Sybok]

nope. Hornacek is taking it
Didn't say he will, said he "could". JH is overrated, Suns aren't even currently in the playoffs.

[HI-FI]

even though Pop shat the bed in the Finals, he deserves CotY again for this season. Spurs suffering through a terrible hangover and tons of injuries, yet somehow atop a very competitive West....pretty amazing imo.

[phxspurfan]

??


Pop may have the 2nd best talented team in the league, behind Miami and/or Indiana.

[james evans]

nope. Hornacek is taking it
when have you ever seen a coach in the 8th or 9th spot win coach of the year?:lol

[KaiRMD1]

With the way the Spurs are still on top and they haven't even had the whole roster, the ol' sport should get coach of the year again

[lmbebo]

always goes to that team with no expectations and barely makes play offs

i say give it to brown if he can get that philly team to win 1 more game this season

[Mugen]

??


Pop may have the 2nd best talented team in the league, behind Miami and/or Indiana.

This season's Spurs haven't had a Top 10 player nor a healthy squad for a majority of the season and they have the best record in the league tbh.

[wildbill2u]

One thing about Pop. He must have ice water in his veins. He put the end of the bench into the game and watched them boot the ball around until the 27 point lead melted away. This game could have been lost at the end, but he didn't panic and didn't put any of the stars back in to seal the win.

I bet every Spurs Talk fan was getting nervous and ready to tear into Pop if we lost.

[Mikeanaro]

Im not sure about that but Im happy with our current record.

[Mugen]

If the Suns miss the playoffs like I think they will then Pop absolutely deserves CotY and it's not even close tbh.

[Sybok]

??


Pop may have the 2nd best talented team in the league, behind Miami and/or Indiana.
Post hoc ergo cum proper hoc. These guys outside of Pop are not world shakers.

[ElNono]

This season's Spurs haven't had a Top 10 player nor a healthy squad for a majority of the season and they have the best record in the league tbh.

You can also add Pop is an integral decision maker in putting this team together.... we can all complain about Errors, but there's a lot of solid pickups too...

[Sybok]

One thing about Pop. He must have ice water in his veins. He put the end of the bench into the game and watched them boot the ball around until the 27 point lead melted away. This game could have been lost at the end, but he didn't panic and didn't put any of the stars back in to seal the win.

I bet every Spurs Talk fan was getting nervous and ready to tear into Pop if we lost.

The injuries that allowed the bench guys to play big minutes and get big results made a huge difference in how the team will develop for the rest of the season. The 2nd unit is a monster relative to other benches in the league. I think the 2nd unit could be in the playoffs on their own tbh.

[Mugen]

You can also add Pop is an integral decision maker in putting this team together.... we can all complain about Errors, but there's a lot of solid pickups too...

:lol Jeff's almost shitty enough to cancel out Beli tbh

[ElNono]

:lol Jeff's almost shitty enough to cancel out Beli tbh

:lol sure, but you have picking up Mills, getting Diaw, doing the Kawhi trade... all within a few years.

[baseline bum]

even though Pop shat the bed in the Finals, he deserves CotY again for this season. Spurs suffering through a terrible hangover and tons of injuries, yet somehow atop a very competitive West....pretty amazing imo.

Pop badly outcoached Philibeaner in the Finals, and pulled a 37 year-old Duncan with no footspeed, not a 27 year-old prime Duncan. Miami getting the most improbable of improbable wins doesn't equate to Pop shitting the bed.

[Sybok]

:lol Jeff's almost shitty enough to cancel out Beli tbh

You have the 1st unit, the 2nd unit and the emergency "break glass" unit. Jeff is part of the 3rd option. You cannot expect viable players in that region.

[Mugen]

If Jeff is on the "emergency break glass unit" then there better be a gun behind it tbh.

[Sybok]

Pop badly outcoached Philibeaner in the Finals, and pulled a 37 year-old Duncan with no footspeed, not a 27 year-old prime Duncan. Miami getting the most improbable of improbable wins doesn't equate to Pop shitting the bed.
The Spurs were underdogs, despite the "But Pop imbalances the otherwise..." shit. Spurs did more than they were expected to do. They did better against a more seasoned Heat team than the Thunder did against a less seasoned team. Spurs have no reason to hang their heads. They've played outside of their collective abilities for a couple years now.... you cannot bitch about a WCF appearance followed by a Finals appearance for a team on the sunset of it's days. This is as good as it gets for fans... soak it in. There'll never be another franchise like this in our lifetimes.

[Sybok]

If Jeff is on the "emergency break glass unit" then there better be a gun behind it tbh.

That unit is only called upon when there are no other options. Jeff is a piece of shit, no doubt, but he has 6 fouls to give and can rebound on a D-league level. That's better than nothing. You won't get a guy his size on the end of the bench with more ability, no way.

[baseline bum]

The Spurs were underdogs, despite the "But Pop imbalances the otherwise..." shit. Spurs did more than they were expected to do. They did better against a more seasoned Heat team than the Thunder did against a less seasoned team. Spurs have no reason to hang their heads. They've played outside of their collective abilities for a couple years now.... you cannot bitch about a WCF appearance followed by a Finals appearance for a team on the sunset of it's days. This is as good as it gets for fans... soak it in. There'll never be another franchise like this in our lifetimes.

Could you imagine the outcome if the Spurs and Heat traded coaches? Pop would have made Danny Green start putting the ball on the floor in Game 2 and the Heat win in 5. I can't believe Spoelstra didn't make such an obvious adjustment until an elimination game. I mean Pop got beat by LeBron James. Spoelstra came 28 seconds from getting beat by Danny Green.

[TE]

The Spurs were underdogs, despite the "But Pop imbalances the otherwise..." shit. Spurs did more than they were expected to do. They did better against a more seasoned Heat team than the Thunder did against a less seasoned team. Spurs have no reason to hang their heads. They've played outside of their collective abilities for a couple years now.... you cannot bitch about a WCF appearance followed by a Finals appearance for a team on the sunset of it's days. This is as good as it gets for fans... soak it in. There'll never be another franchise like this in our lifetimes.

:tu Exactly. Given the talent level and the conference they play in, the Spurs have overachieved...there's maybe one more year after this one where this team will remain a contender...just gotta soak it in before the ship sinks imo

[Sybok]

This is how almost every other fan in the league think about the Spurs.

"Bulls getting walloped by the best team in the NBA tonight.

The Spurs play the game the way it was meant to be played: solid fundamental team defense, with an offense that flows like water.

Having skilled players makes the game look so beautiful. I wish the Bulls could be more like that instead of having to grind out ugly wins all the time." - Chicago Bulls fan 03/11/2014

[Sybok]

:tu Exactly. Given the talent level and the conference they play in, the Spurs have overachieved...there's maybe one more year after this one where this team will remain a contender...just gotta soak it in before the ship sinks imo

I used to think this way... but now I think they will continue to be competitive because it's not about the big 3 as much as it about the system that employs them. It will be a dark day when Pop calls it quits, but until then, I see the Spurs winning 50 a year.

[z0sa]

Yep. There's no better coach in the NBA right now. It's not even close, tbh

[DarrinS]

It will be a sad day when Pop, Tim, and Manu are gone. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[HI-FI]

Pop badly outcoached Philibeaner in the Finals, and pulled a 37 year-old Duncan with no footspeed, not a 27 year-old prime Duncan. Miami getting the most improbable of improbable wins doesn't equate to Pop shitting the bed.
I still don't like the pulling of Duncan or how Pop managed that fourth quarter. That being said, I thought it was Pop was a maestro getting the Spurs there, and Spurs were definitely underdogs against a corporate juggernaut of a team. Plus we were a FT, a Manu turnover or Parker heroball away from winning it.

[NickiRasgo]

I'm not saying Pop doesn't deserve it but I think it would be Stotts or Vogel. The trend for winning COTY is usually basing it on last season's standing. I like Hornacek too, what he did to Suns this season. He's like Pop in the making for me, considering Suns are too young team and doesn't have even have a superstar but he was able to maximize his players. Even Suns fans reaction before the beginning of the season were already disappointed.

[Baam]

Is anyone else even close?

No one else could find a way to lose the Finals tbh, takes a genius like Pop...

Thibs, Vogel, Jim Carrey (who didn't shit the bed vs the Heat), Hornaceck, Clifford, Spoelstra and others are all as good if not better.

[Kidd K]

Lately, yeah. But tbh it's always been more like a "newbie coach of the year" or "coach who ressurrected a team the most this season" award, rather than a "best coach of the year" award.

[cd021]

nope. Hornacek is taking it

They aren't making the playoffs. Their schedule is insane. 13 of 18 games on the road. No way they give it to him unless they make the playoffs.

[cd021]

Terry Stotts-Portland

Pop-San Antonio

Frank Vogele-Indiana

[therealtruth]

No one else could find a way to lose the Finals tbh, takes a genius like Pop...

Thibs, Vogel, Jim Carrey (who didn't shit the bed vs the Heat), Hornaceck, Clifford, Spoelstra and others are all as good if not better.

Pretty much. Every other coach is too dumb to realize you have to sit Tim Duncan when you need to get defensive stops and rebounds.

[Spur|n|Austin]

Any coach in the league would agree with OP. Like z0sa said, it's not even close.

Pop's the man.

[xmas1997]

Any coach in the league would agree with OP. Like z0sa said, it's not even close.

Pop's the man.


And this is the honest truth.
Anyone saying the opposite is totally out of their mind IMHO.

[T Park]

Pop badly outcoached Philibeaner in the Finals, and pulled a 37 year-old Duncan with no footspeed, not a 27 year-old prime Duncan. Miami getting the most improbable of improbable wins doesn't equate to Pop shitting the bed.

Leave it to an OG to bring sense as usual.

[TampaDude]

The Spurs were underdogs, despite the "But Pop imbalances the otherwise..." shit. Spurs did more than they were expected to do. They did better against a more seasoned Heat team than the Thunder did against a less seasoned team. Spurs have no reason to hang their heads. They've played outside of their collective abilities for a couple years now.... you cannot bitch about a WCF appearance followed by a Finals appearance for a team on the sunset of it's days. This is as good as it gets for fans... soak it in. There'll never be another franchise like this in our lifetimes.

Exactly...the Heat were SUPPOSED to win it all. Any other team besides the Spurs out of the West would've probably gotten swept by Miami. Yeah, it sucks to get so close and not win it all, but the other team is getting paid, too.

This year we'll have HCA and should beat everyone we face in the playoffs. Barring any significant injuries, #5 is likely ours this time. :hat

The Spurs may not always win the title, but they are always in the hunt, and they are still the winningest pro sports franchise over the past 15 years, period. Yes, the Spurs ARE a dynasty. Enjoy it while it lasts. :toast

[xmas1997]

Pop badly outcoached Philibeaner in the Finals, and pulled a 37 year-old Duncan with no footspeed, not a 27 year-old prime Duncan. Miami getting the most improbable of improbable wins doesn't equate to Pop shitting the bed.


Leave it to an OG to bring sense as usual.


Exactly...the Heat were SUPPOSED to win it all. Any other team besides the Spurs out of the West would've probably gotten swept by Miami. Yeah, it sucks to get so close and not win it all, but the other team is getting paid, too.

This year we'll have HCA and should beat everyone we face in the playoffs. Barring any significant injuries, #5 is likely ours this time. :hat

The Spurs may not always win the title, but they are always in the hunt, and they are still the winningest pro sports franchise over the past 15 years, period. Yes, the Spurs ARE a dynasty. Enjoy it while it lasts. :toast

True, so true,
Truer words were never said, yet some ignoramuses on here disagree.
Go figure.:lol

[SpurPadre]

Could you imagine the outcome if the Spurs and Heat traded coaches? Pop would have made Danny Green start putting the ball on the floor in Game 2 and the Heat win in 5. I can't believe Spoelstra didn't make such an obvious adjustment until an elimination game. I mean Pop got beat by LeBron James. Spoelstra came 28 seconds from getting beat by Danny Green.

The team deserves credit for winning the games they did win in the Finals. DG being left open to hit threes wasn't the only reason those games were won. Surely, once Spoelstra figured out what to do against him, it set us back but let's not discredit our clear superiority over the Heat that was negated by the worst 28 seconds to finish a game in NBA Finals history.

[SpurPadre]

Leave it to an OG to bring sense as usual.

I wouldn't call a racist as "bringing in some sense"

[baseline bum]

The team deserves credit for winning the games they did win in the Finals. DG being left open to hit threes wasn't the only reason those games were won. Surely, once Spoelstra figured out what to do against him, it set us back but let's not discredit our clear superiority over the Heat that was negated by the worst 28 seconds to finish a game in NBA Finals history.

What clear superiority? Parker hit a lucky three to take the lead in a Game 6 that Miami was controlling.

[SpurPadre]

What clear superiority? Parker hit a lucky three to take the lead in a Game 6 that Miami was controlling.

Uh, we were up 10 after 3 quarters...and led for more quarters than they did if you look at the numbers throughout the series. So, yes, it was clear superiority fucked by a miserable 28 seconds. As for "lucky three" for TP, how about Miller getting to hit a three without a shoe? Or all the lucky threes Battier was hitting in game 7?

[T Park]

I wouldn't call a racist as "bringing in some sense"

Lmao baseline couldn't be less racist

[T Park]

Uh, we were up 10 after 3 quarters...and led for more quarters than they did if you look at the numbers throughout the series. So, yes, it was clear superiority fucked by a miserable 28 seconds. As for "lucky three" for TP, how about Miller getting to hit a three without a shoe? Or all the lucky threes Battier was hitting in game 7?

Bat tier wasn't lucky. Just stop

[baseline bum]

Uh, we were up 10 after 3 quarters...and led for more quarters than they did if you look at the numbers throughout the series. So, yes, it was clear superiority fucked by a miserable 28 seconds. As for "lucky three" for TP, how about Miller getting to hit a three without a shoe? Or all the lucky threes Battier was hitting in game 7?

And Miami was up 3 with two minutes to go in the fourth quarter of Game 6 and mostly controlled Game 7. I call Parker's three to tie the game (not take the lead as I said above) lucky because:
(1) He's not a three point shooter
(2) James was right up on him
(3) It was a desperation shot to beat the shot clock buzzer.

As opposed to Miller who is one of the top shooters of the last 20 years getting an open three because of Neal's lazy D and then Battier who got tons of great open looks.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

No one else could find a way to lose the Finals tbh, takes a genius like Pop...

Thibs, Vogel, Jim Carrey (who didn't shit the bed vs the Heat), Hornaceck, Clifford, Spoelstra and others are all as good if not better.

Pop put us in a position where either a free throw make by Kawhi or Manu would've won a ring for us.

[Seventyniner]

And Miami was up 3 with two minutes to go in the fourth quarter of Game 6 and mostly controlled Game 7. I call Parker's three to tie the game (not take the lead as I said above) lucky because:
(1) He's not a three point shooter
(2) James was right up on him
(3) It was a desperation shot to beat the shot clock buzzer.

As opposed to Miller who is one of the top shooters of the last 20 years getting an open three because of Neal's lazy D and then Battier who got tons of great open looks.

True. The Spurs gaining that 5-point lead was almost as fluky as them losing it. That Parker 3 (not even from the corner; Parker is a pretty bad 3-point shooter above the break) was a straight bailout/BS shot.

[Seventyniner]

Oh and about the thread, I think it would take 4 things happening for Pop to win CotY:
1) Spurs finish 62-20 or better and have the best record in the league
2) Portland falls to #7 or below
3) Phoenix fails to make the playoffs
4) Indiana doesn't get the 1 seed in the East

[SpurPadre]

Lmao baseline couldn't be less racist

He used the word "b*aner" to describe someone who happens to be darked skin. And to me, that's a racial epithet.

[SpurPadre]

Bat tier wasn't lucky. Just stop

Just stop? WTF? And what's with your need to defend the Heat?

[SpurPadre]

True. The Spurs gaining that 5-point lead was almost as fluky as them losing it. That Parker 3 (not even from the corner; Parker is a pretty bad 3-point shooter above the break) was a straight bailout/BS shot.

Man, what's with not giving the team credit for being in position to win it all in 6? The Heat coming back from 10 down after 3 was fluky because the surge happened when the starters were on the bench. Yes, Pop is an all-time great coach and the best coach in the league who put us in position to win it all but you have to give the team credit for playing the games and following the game plan to a tee...until you know what happened.

[DMC]

You have to give credit to all parties involved, but this thread isn't just about the Finals. If I recall correctly, the CotY is a regular season award and no one but no one manages and coaches a team of otherwise unknowns to a top seed each and every year better than coach Pop. So yeah, if the award was about being the best COACH in the league, not just the biggest turnaround or some other flukey shit that often leads to the coach being fired a year or so later, then Pop should win it every year.

[SpurPadre]

You have to give credit to all parties involved, but this thread isn't just about the Finals. If I recall correctly, the CotY is a regular season award and no one but no one manages and coaches a team of otherwise unknowns to a top seed each and every year better than coach Pop. So yeah, if the award was about being the best COACH in the league, not just the biggest turnaround or some other flukey shit that often leads to the coach being fired a year or so later, then Pop should win it every year.

Agreed.

[T Park]

Just stop? WTF? And what's with your need to defend the Heat?

It's not defending it's being realistic and objective. The Heat were the better team.

[Sean Cagney]

Pop put us in a position where either a free throw make by Kawhi or Manu would've won a ring for us.

Yep, either that or Keeping Tim in there to get one final rebound :( Pop giveth POP TAKETH away at times.
It's not defending it's being realistic and objective. The Heat were the better team.

No they were not the better team at all, the Spurs were the better team but the Heat had some luck on their side and Had the best player in game 7, period.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

Yep, either that or Keeping Tim in there to get one final rebound :( Pop giveth POP TAKETH away at times.

No they were not the better team at all, the Spurs were the better team but the Heat had some luck on their side and Had the best player in game 7, period.

I'm probably in the minority but he always does that. If Pop had kept Tim in and they forced a switch where the smaller, more mobile guy blew by Tim and scored a bucket, people would be blasting Pop for panicking and not sticking by his game plan.

[Bartleby]

There'll never be another franchise like this in our lifetimes.

And yet, for the last several years there have been Spurs "fans" crying for the owners to fire Pop and blow up the team.

[Sean Cagney]

I'm probably in the minority but he always does that. If Pop had kept Tim in and they forced a switch where the smaller, more mobile guy blew by Tim and scored a bucket, people would be blasting Pop for panicking and not sticking by his game plan.

Okay, that would be a two pointer though instead of a three! They left the smaller guys out there to guard the three and still let Lebron have two wide open looks, what was the point of guarding the three again if you did not do it? I take a two anyday over that three.

[313]

And yet, for the last several years there have been Spurs "fans" crying for the owners to fire Pop and blow up the team.

lol idiots

[jARS mEsH sEt]

Okay, that would be a two pointer though instead of a three! They left the smaller guys out there to guard the three and still let Lebron have two wide open looks, what was the point of guarding the three again if you did not do it? I take a two anyday over that three.

It's perhaps a mistake in philosophy, but not in execution of that philosophy. Some coaches intentionally foul in that situation and send the team to the line. Some coaches aggressively guard the 3 point line and will allow a wide open layup for 2 if it comes to that. Some coaches (like Pop) go small to match up with the opponent and try to defend both the 2 and 3, with slightly more emphasis on guarding the 3. Pop is adamant in making sure never to foul someone near the rim so as to avoid and-1 opportunities (if you recall this is exactly what cost us in 2006 with manu's infamous foul on dirk).

There could be disastrous situations with all 3 philosophies. Maybe Coach X's team is up 3 and intentionally fouls. Miami goes to the line and makes 2 free throws, steal the ball, and hit a game winning 2. People would be criticizing coach X for intentionally fouling. Had they just played good solid defense, then maybe Miami wouldn't have scored at all on that possession and maybe that would've given them the necessary buffer to win the game and the championship.

It's fine to criticize the philosophy, but I'm not a fan of criticizing philosophies only when they don't work. All coaching philosophies are prone to exploitations or bad luck (or both) because there's no one, true, perfect defensive philosophy in that situation.

[TheGoldStandard]

The truth is last season could be a 30 for 30 segment, "the championship that almost happened" a series of unfortunate events had to occur for it to all go down like last season. 9 out of 10 we win it but we know what happened. We all know Duncan should never have been out of the game and I'm sure we could have put him on someone who would have had to take more time off the clock to get the shot off he didn't have to be on bosh etc... But what it comes down to is they got a rebound and they got a shot and we have learned that the spurs suck at grabbing boards

[Sybok]

One of the unfortunate events was the RW went down against Houston and hurt OKC's chances. That set up a Spurs sweep of a Memphis team that really had no business in the WCF. So you have to take all things into consideration. Spurs had a really good year last year, best year since 2007. That's how I look at it. Mike D says the Spurs are the best team the Lakers have faced this season. We have an opportunity to be right back there, and then it's anyone's game.

[T Park]

Yep, either that or Keeping Tim in there to get one final rebound :( Pop giveth POP TAKETH away at times.

No they were not the better team at all, the Spurs were the better team but the Heat had some luck on their side and Had the best player in game 7, period.

If they were the better team the spurs would've won. This isn't hard people.....

[Sean Cagney]

If they were the better team the spurs would've won. This isn't hard people.....
They should have one, some crazy events happened and some really crazy shots! They were the better team in that series and should have won it. You sound like you accept it better thinking the Heat were the better team so they were, to each their own. Spurs blew it.
The truth is last season could be a 30 for 30 segment, "the championship that almost happened" a series of unfortunate events had to occur for it to all go down like last season. 9 out of 10 we win it but we know what happened. We all know Duncan should never have been out of the game and I'm sure we could have put him on someone who would have had to take more time off the clock to get the shot off he didn't have to be on bosh etc... But what it comes down to is they got a rebound and they got a shot and we have learned that the spurs suck at grabbing boards
^^^^^ Yep.

[Sean Cagney]

It's perhaps a mistake in philosophy, but not in execution of that philosophy. Some coaches intentionally foul in that situation and send the team to the line. Some coaches aggressively guard the 3 point line and will allow a wide open layup for 2 if it comes to that. Some coaches (like Pop) go small to match up with the opponent and try to defend both the 2 and 3, with slightly more emphasis on guarding the 3. Pop is adamant in making sure never to foul someone near the rim so as to avoid and-1 opportunities (if you recall this is exactly what cost us in 2006 with manu's infamous foul on dirk).

There could be disastrous situations with all 3 philosophies. Maybe Coach X's team is up 3 and intentionally fouls. Miami goes to the line and makes 2 free throws, steal the ball, and hit a game winning 2. People would be criticizing coach X for intentionally fouling. Had they just played good solid defense, then maybe Miami wouldn't have scored at all on that possession and maybe that would've given them the necessary buffer to win the game and the championship.

It's fine to criticize the philosophy, but I'm not a fan of criticizing philosophies only when they don't work. All coaching philosophies are prone to exploitations or bad luck (or both) because there's no one, true, perfect defensive philosophy in that situation.

Still if they went small to guard the 3 better they should have actually guarded the three when Lebron hit that WIDE open look! That makes me mad they were out there to guard the three and failed to even do that. Might as well have had Tim in the game if you are going to give a WIDE open look. I see what you are saying though.

[therealtruth]

Still if they went small to guard the 3 better they should have actually guarded the three when Lebron hit that WIDE open look! That makes me mad they were out there to guard the three and failed to even do that. Might as well have had Tim in the game if you are going to give a WIDE open look. I see what you are saying though.

Exactly. The strategy was reactive not proactive. When you're down 3 you don't allow the other team to get what shot they want. You want to force them of the 3pt line and into a contested jumper. With a smaller more mobile lineup you can actually chase the guys of the line. Otherwise we might as well have had Duncan out there. Duncan however might actually have been able to block a shot or grab a rebound.

Also the strategy ignored the importance of having a defensive anchor out there. A defensive anchor makes sure everyone is in the proper place and anticipates what the offense is going to do. They looked clueless out there. Pop has confirmed they didn't execute the way they were supposed to. You put Duncan out there and he's going to make sure everyone is in the correct position and understands what to do.

What if Duncan gets blown away by a faster player? He's been all-defense for all his career. I think he would understand how to play defense against faster players. You saw how hard he played in game 6 and you take his body of work as Spurs. I think he deserved to be out there. I would much rather have Duncan out there while all that happened then always thinking about what if one of the best defensive players in NBA history was out there.

Also in that situation all the Spurs are worried about is not giving up open 3's and layups. You want to force contested 2's or even trap the offense. Alot of times in that type of situation the coach will take a timeout just to see what the offense is going to do to make sure everyone is on the same page as far as defending it. The Spurs did none of that. You can't allow an open 3 and then complain about how the ball bounces. 3's tend to have unpredictable bounces.